7D Specs
A spec list
18mp
8fps
19 AF Points
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/….
He said the same thing at the end of July
cr
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August 21st, 2009 at 6:22 am
Sounds more like a possible successor of the 5d Mark II than a cheaper FF camera model…
well, let”s see if it”s true
Reply
Anonymous Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 7:12 am
18mp times 8fps = 144 million reasons to buy the camera.
wasnt there something said like this lately.
i think that the fact that it has lower mp than the 5dII plus the high fps yous make it like a prosumer model of the 1dIII. likely to be a 1.3 crop prosumer body for sports and birds…
though, i would have loved to see a lower end FF-cam
Reply
Anonymous Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 11:25 pm
you’ll never see a fast FF from Canon unless they update the 1dIV with a FF sensor
Reply
Dean Reply:
August 22nd, 2009 at 2:22 am
This is what i think we are all hoping for.
Reply
Anonymous Reply:
August 22nd, 2009 at 5:57 am
18mp & 8fps yes, but the 7D is also a 1.6 crop.
Reply
Anonymous Reply:
August 22nd, 2009 at 10:44 am
i hope the 7D or whatever its really going to be isnt 1.6 sensor.. Canon needs to get rid of EF-S already.. those lenses really arent any good anyways for a photographers if they are going to be upgrading to 1D series or 5D series..
Reply
David Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 12:57 pm
Where does it say 1.6 APS-C sensor?
Reply
August 21st, 2009 at 6:24 am
[...] 1 votes vote 7D Specs A spec list 18mp 8fps 19 AF Points He said the same thing at the end of July cr submitted by [...]
August 21st, 2009 at 6:24 am
Sounds very good if it’s true. And of course to be FF.
Reply
Loco Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 7:53 am
aps-c. Canon is fan of pixel densite.
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Scott Reply:
August 22nd, 2009 at 11:11 am
APS-H if it really will be 18MP, 8fps and cheaper than a 5DII
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August 21st, 2009 at 6:25 am
If that is true I would be so happy. I would buy it even if it comes without any direct print buttons.
Reply
John Swan Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 6:49 am
Not funny. Please don’t post here again.
Reply
afrank99 Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 6:58 am
Same goes for you.
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Kovacs Gergely Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 6:58 am
John,
Not funny,
Please do not post here again.
Thnx.
:D
Reply
Anonymous Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 7:13 am
it seems that i read this conversation before. or is it just a flash back?
Reply
Kovacs Gergely Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 7:27 am
No it is not :D
HAHAHAHAHA :)
I’m very consistent :D
Reply
Dean Reply:
August 22nd, 2009 at 2:23 am
same with John sadly
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Anonymous Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 7:00 am
Sorry about that, I will stop saying things that might encourage Canon to drop the direct print buttons.
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Dmitrij Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 8:34 am
+1 :D
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Chris Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 7:05 am
Yah, because that is seriously the most important feature to me.
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Nigel Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 9:14 am
You can’t stop anonymous John, he/she/they is nothing if not persistent. Persistently so.
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Allan Crain Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 9:47 pm
Man, you just have no sense of humor.
Reply
Anonymous Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 8:11 pm
Get a life John. Oh the best way to get a life is…
USE A DIRECT PRINT BUTTON!
Reply
August 21st, 2009 at 6:26 am
is it FF or APS-C? if its FF wouldn’t it conflict with the 5D II?
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Ted Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 6:46 am
Remember that they can always release a 5D3, or split the line into a 7D (low-end compact FF) and 3D (high-end compact FF). Canon do this specification leapfrogging all the time with the xxxD and xxD lines. They even did it with the 5D2 and the 1Ds3 (if you consider what you get for the price difference). It is the whole package that pro buyers are after, not just one particular item on the spec. sheet.
A new 3D could be a faster (6 fps?) version of the 5D2 with pro-AF (maybe the current 1D3 system), weather sealing, etc. in a compact body. The sensor might be enhanced from the current 5D2, maybe to 24MP with better sensitivity. They might toss in 24p and 25p HD video. This could be positioned above the current 5D2 and that body discontinued. It would appeal to the movie brigade and those who want a compact pro model and are willing to pay extra for it.
The 7D might have the trimmed down 1D AF (19 points) that people have rumoured, no weather sealing, recycle the current 5DII sensor, same (slow) speed and lack of 24p HD video. Lacklustre as a 5D3, but enticing if the price is right. This might be why the rumoured prices are very close to the 5D2, it is basically its replacement/rebranding.
Then, just bump up the spec. on the 1D4 with fancy new AF, HD video and some go-faster stripes and toss 38MP, GPS, etc. at the 1Ds4 to put it back at the top of the pedestal.
You heard it here first! ;-)
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Ted Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 6:48 am
Just realised that I posted a novella in a forum frequented by the one-lineer Twitter generation. Should I get my coat? ;-)
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Ted Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 6:58 am
Really preaching to myself now…
A 7D to make the Nikon D700 and Sony A900 look too expensive; a 3D to make them look underspec’ed. The 5D2 just doesn’t stand out.
The 5D2 proved that HD video on a FF sensor will sell like hot-cakes, so splitting it into two models–one for cheapskates, one for technophiles–could really stick it to the competition.
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Anonymous Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 7:45 am
Ted, if you’re right about the 3D or a 5D3, I would cry tears of joy and have cash in hand to get one of those. Now it’s just a matter of waiting and seeing what they actually come out with, but man do I hope you’re right…
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Joe Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 8:04 am
Ted if you are right it would make me so happy I would … take a picture of a beer then print it out for you with my brand new direct print button on that camera. :) Cheers
Reply
Dmitrij Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 8:37 am
throwing away 5d2 after a year.
sounds stupid…but who knows
Reply
Ted Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 9:55 am
They often “throw away” cameras about a year later:
D60 -> 10D
40D -> 50D
400D -> 450D -> 500D
1D2 -> 1D2N
Widen the net to 18 months and a whole lot more fit in. I bet they sold a respectable trickle of 5D bodies and when they updated it they sold a torrent of 5D2 bodies. Now they’ll update it a lot more often to keep the sales buzz alive.
Besides, think of a 7D as a “5D Mark II N” and it all makes sense…at least to me…and I’m just making all this up…except for the release cycles, of course.
Or am I making it all up? ;-)
Reply
jbl Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 10:37 am
Like you said, they often throw away cameras after a year.
And if they release the 7D now (as a underspec’ed, cheaper 5d2) and the 3D next year as an upgrade to the 5d2 (+ conversion to pro lvl with weather sealing and pro af), the 5D2 will be old enough.
What canon is doing right now sure is very interesting.
We already know that Sony is probably coming with 2 new bodies soon.
Now, Nikon has to do something or else I’m going to switch to Canon. I need video in FF body.
Reply
Ted Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 11:10 am
I think we’ll see the 7D and 3D at the same time, or near enough, anyway.
If you look at the 5D2, there is not much you could take away to make a cheaper model. I think it will be just re-badged as a 7D, so there would be no point in keeping it current. They are in such demand that there is probably little or no inventory to clear. They’ll lower the price a bit, hoping for an increase in sales volume and making room for a 3D. That will pull in the customers who find a 5D2 too expensive, and those who find its spec. a bit too basic. Everyone’s happy (except for almost everyone who frequents rumours forums).
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Steve Reply:
August 22nd, 2009 at 11:21 am
Not so much take as switch.
5D II -7MP + 3fps + 4 focus points = 7D (for $2700 maybe cheaper) would make a lot of people happy.
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David Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 1:08 pm
The 5D2 is the most popular EOS ever, stores can barely keep them in stock even after a year. All the cameras you site being replaced early were slow movers, and the xxxD line are replaced on a yearly basis anyway so how does that prove anything? The xxD line is replaced in under two years or sooner anyway. The 1Dn was a minor update. So I don’t see any precident for a 5D3 after a year. Also, they would never drop the 5D line and replace it with a 7D. If this rumor is true, it’s a new camera that may or may not even share the same body as the 5D – though probably not if the pop-up flash pics are the 7D.
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Henk van Oosterom Reply:
August 24th, 2009 at 3:01 am
the 40D was not a slow mover, and the 400D and 450D both sold pretty well too
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David Reply:
August 24th, 2009 at 11:28 am
The xxD series are generally replaced quickly, especially given the yearly updates of the xxxD series if they didn’t update the xxD the Rebel would soon be higher spec than the xxD – and that can’t happen. The minute you see a xxxD come out that is close in specs to the xxD you can bet a new xxD is coming soon. So a 60D on the heals of the T1i/500D is a no brainer. The 5D series and 1D series get updated less frequently. The 1D3 has been outdated for some time and it’s still not been updated. No way a 5D3 is coming any time soon.
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August 21st, 2009 at 6:27 am
It seems reasonable that Canon will make at least of their new releases be a speed demon with better AF.
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August 21st, 2009 at 6:30 am
18 Mp ? : It has to be a bigger sensor than APS-C
8FPS ?!? : It will be really difficult to justify a full frame (5D 2 Buyer will be angry…like me!)
19 AF points ???? : Here it MUST be APS-H, if not there will be riots in Canon users (I will join!), Canon will have to issue service change for 5d2 owner to replace AF module (I would love that though, great upgrade and the the best DSLR for me then).
My guess : We have here the “Prince of Darkness” we were talking about a month ago or so. APS-H, fully featured, good AF, and 1080p video…This will really kill the D300s…and somewhat the D700…
But…What remains for the 60D so? There MUST be an upgrade for APS-C line…but I think it’s not top priority…or…we could as well see canon turning back temporarily to CMOS for CCD sensor like the G11, with killing noise free pictures…
Wait and see. I wait for the lenses…all the non-L lenses, except for the recent EF-S lenses are too old, or for some EF-S too shaby in termes of performance…
The biggest problem from canon is the lack of consistency in the production : the lenses are great…IF CALIBRATED properly and with no backfocus or front focus…and it hapens a lot. 80% of my lenses need micro adjustements…and ALL of my L lenses need…
Once properly calibrated, and aligned, all the lenses show good performance, but some not as good as Nikon’s one recently. Time to work :-)
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Anonymous Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 6:39 am
You can’t complain now. You knowingly bought a product with known inferior AF. You should have voted with your wallet like the rest of us did. Too late to cry now.
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papa november Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 6:43 am
Voted with your wallet? You’re probably just an hobbyist with no money. That’s why you didn’t buy the 5d2.
Reply
Anonymous Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 6:48 am
Actually I am a pro with no money, but either way, I am still not going to buy a POS camera that produces twenty something MP of OOF blur.
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Nick Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 10:40 am
lol. you have obviously never used one. I am assuming you are sports shooter becuase that is the only reason anyone should need a 1d style autofocus system.
If your dying for one buy a used 1d2. i have seen them going for $900 on fred miranda.
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Denni Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 2:37 pm
I’m a pro and a 1Ds Mark II user. I rented a 5D for a wedding this past weekend (just to see what the fuss was about) and the autofocus sucked serious ass. Even when grabbing candids at the reception it hunted like a blind man. No, good af ain’t just for sports… My bloody EOS 3, at $2000, had a killer autofocus way back in the day. It had the exact same autofocus as the 1V. The only reason the 5D II has this autofocus is because Canon knew it’s IQ was better than the 1D III and if it also had useable autofocus then you’d have to be an idoit to spend 9K on the pro body.
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Christiaan Reply:
August 22nd, 2009 at 2:37 am
Probably true…
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oooh I'm a pro Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 6:52 am
so I can act like a jerk
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Anonymous Reply:
August 22nd, 2009 at 12:05 pm
+1,000
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Lawliet Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 7:52 am
The problem of the wallet-vote:
The manufactor doesn’t get feedback of what went wrong.
If you don’t buy a device because you consider it underspecced you can bet the next gen gets even lower specs because its assumed that thing was to expensive.
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regular Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 9:08 am
I have my own method : I go to Canon booth during shows and tell the audience the AF is a real piece of crap. And that’s been quiet successfull :)
(joking).
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Sean Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 7:07 am
There will be no replacing of the AF module in the 5D2; this would be an outlandish service process and would never be seriously considered, particularly given Canon’s penchant for assuming customer loyalty / not caring.
The “Price of Darkness” will be the 1DIV, whenever announced, and will include a wholly new type of sensor very similar in some ways to the Foveon but both (rationally) including an AA filter and having a much, much higher efficiency. It may also debut a number of other noise-reduction technologies, though it’s possible that these will be released as part of whatever the 7D turns out to be.
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Cocorito Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 7:24 am
Do you have any sources for this new type of sensor or is only a guess?
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Sean Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 7:33 am
Canon have a patent application in for a Foveon-style sensor which they lay claim to have in current form at ~33MP in a non-standard format. Cropped to APS, it would be around 27 or 28 MP (can’t require what I calculated offhand). They believe that they can attain an efficiency at least as good with these as they can with CMOS sensors while making a good gain in apparent resolution (particularly color resolution) by discarding the need for Bayer. It’s a fascinating design and will likely be integrated with another patent for ‘dark pixels’ for recreating a map of the sensor dark current to be subtracted out of the final image at high ISO, as well as a few other things for improving high-ISO performance. I’ll look up the patent number and post it after bit.
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Cocorito Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 7:35 am
Thanks a lot! :)
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regular Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 10:39 am
Nice find. But I would expect this brand new technology to be introduced on a compact camera first, and then, on a DSLR. Don’t you think so?
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Sean Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 11:19 am
With quoted resolution at 7680×4320, I would be quite surprised for it to debut in a compact. If it’s as good as the patent implies (acknowledging the patent could just be posturing), I really expect this to be debut in the ‘Price of Darkness’ 1D we’ve been hearing rumors about. Probably at a lower resolution to not put quite as much demand on the lines at first, but I think within 2 years it’ll be in everything above the Rebels for DSLRs and debut among compacts in the S and G lines.
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Sean Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 7:37 am
US Patent Application #20090008735, “PHOTO DETECTOR, IMAGE SENSOR, PHOTO-DETECTION METHOD, AND IMAGING METHOD”.
7680×4320 for claimed resolution, thought they note that the sensor could be designed and employed at a wide range of MP / sensel sizes.
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dave Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 3:28 pm
I bet the 5D2 will be replaced Spring of 2010.
I specifically told a Canon rep that I was not interested in the 5D2 due to old AF system, low FPS and lack of proper weather seals. He said thanks for the feedback.
Reply
David Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 1:18 pm
18 MP doesn’t necessarily mean FF. The 50D is 15 MP 6.3 fps and it’s not hard to imagine the 60D could go up in both MP and fps. If it is FF, it’s probably a 7D in the price ball park of the 5D2. If it’s APS-C it’s probably the 60D not a 7D imo.
As for being upset about buying a 5D2 before this one? I don’t get it. They would make a great team of cameras, I’ll buy a 7D to go with my 5D2 as soon as it comes out if these are the specs especially if it has 1080p too.
At 3.9 fps max, the AF on the 5D2 is fine. It’s just not a sports so bashing it for not being one is very silly. The only complaint I have with all the AF systems on the market is they do not put focus points by the rule of thirds, the most basic concept of photo composition.
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August 21st, 2009 at 6:33 am
Told by who ?….
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Sue Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 9:59 am
Dear, it’s, “Told by whom?”
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David Reply:
August 24th, 2009 at 5:26 pm
Says who?
…hehe just kidding around
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August 21st, 2009 at 6:36 am
If this is a 7D, what the heck will a 1dIV bring us?
25 mp, FF, 12 fps or something? I think Canon will have to merge 1D and 1Ds series.
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Sean Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 7:15 am
I still don’t believe merging is in their best interest. The markets are considerably different, even though there are folks who switch between them. Using the same AF makes good business sense, but ideal sensel sizes (particularly given the retraction of MP as a major marketing feature), LL performance, etc. make the markets for these very different. To raise the price so much on the 1D shooters would put them out of the market and defer them to Nikon. To lower the price on the 1Ds so far as to keep the 1D shooters would cut considerably into the company’s margin. I think they’ll keep them separate save, as I mention, for the AF.
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David Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 1:22 pm
It wont happen. The 1Ds4 will be $9000, 32 MP, 2K or better video. The 1D4 will be super fast, 12 to 15 fps, and lower MP probably 21 mp or less and blow the doors of these 7D specs. They are all different animals and target markets.
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August 21st, 2009 at 6:38 am
$2700 for 7D ?
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August 21st, 2009 at 6:53 am
My take: This is just somebody’s personal wishlist – at least if this is supposed to be FF. This would be way to close (or even supperior to the 5D2). *May be* as an APS-C as Dariel pointed out already, but even this seems far-fetched to me.
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August 21st, 2009 at 6:54 am
Canon will not put more than 15MP on an APS-C sensor.
Plus – I sincerely doubt 8fps could be achieved on a FF camera and at the same/similar price point to the 5D MkII.
If these stats were true this would be am awesome camera, but I honestly do not believe it.
Maybe APS-H sensor and 8fps? That’s more believable than FF, but they’d need to release 1D Mk IV at same time – otherwise this camera would be better in most areas than the 1D Mk III.
I would be happy with any of the following:
1. 60D/7D with 15.1mp, APS-C and 8fps provided it can compete with D300 in low light.
2. 60D/7D with any mp, APS-H and 6+fps.
3. 60D/7D with any mp, FF and 5+fps.
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John Swan Jr. Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 7:06 am
I hadn’t entertained the idea of an APS-H until one of your previous posts… it’s growing on me. Faster than FF, split the DoF between 1.6 & FF, potential to retain wide via EF-S and sensor crop. I like it, Canon build it and we will come.
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Sebastian Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 7:17 am
No way either. APS-H is more or less a dead-end road which is only fostered by Canon out of tradition for pro sports photographers and the like.
The chances that Canon will build an APS-H sensor in a prosumer body targeted more or less on the mass market are about same as hell freezing over.
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Sean Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 7:26 am
The alternative is to assume that this is an APS sensor which was originally to have been the 5D2’s when they panicked and released the 21MP version instead as a result of the a900 introduction. We had heard a lot of solid information last year that the 5D2 would be in this MP range and offer more in the way of AF / fps, so it could well be. At that, though, to reach any of the suggested price points, I would doubt there to be any weather sealing on this thing – that’s too much camera for Canon to release if it were sealed as well (18 MP APS = ~11MP APS-H, or > 1DIII resolution).
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jbl Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 11:40 am
I don’t believe in this one.
The 5D was FF, so the 5D2 was meant to be FF. However a 7D could have an APS-H sensor.
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Sean Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 11:51 am
I’m saying that this presumes, consistent with another analyses on here, that were a ‘3D’ may be in the pipe to play kid sister to the 1 series, than the 7D would be the 5D step-down analog using the all-new 18MP FF sensor originally intended for release in the 5D2, but swapped out at the last minute in favor of more MP due to Sony’s a900 release. I do not believe that Canon are going to release both 18MP and 8fps at that resolution and at the expected prices – its too good a value and would significantly devalue the rest of the line. Either it’s a FF sensor with lower MP @ 8fps, or it’s a sensor crop mode which gets 8fps, but there will be no 18MP @ 8fps for <= 5D2 price.
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David Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 1:28 pm
Hell isn’t freazing over anytime soon. No way they are going from 10 MP APS-H to an all new 18 MP APS-H sesnor in a 7D. It’ll be a 7D FF D700 killer companion to the 5D2 or a majorly upgraded APS-C 60D D300s killer.
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John Swan Jr. Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 7:27 am
The digital tradition?
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Gusto Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 8:39 am
Don’t be so sure.
Hell must have frozen over when Canon went from 14.7 MP G10 to 10 MP G11.
LOL
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Sebastian Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 11:13 am
No, going back from 15MP to 10MP was just a step back to sanity.
.
.
.
On second thought – you might be right. ;-)
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patiente Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 10:34 am
APS-H is not faster than FF. Speed depends only on the MP count, not on the sensor size. And chips performance double each few years at the same power dissipation.
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Ben Schiendelman Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 4:49 pm
Speed also depends on the ability of the mirror to move that fast. It’s harder for FF than for APS-H.
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David Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 1:30 pm
If that’s true than Nikon could not have the FF D3 and D700, which they do, so your premise is incorrect.
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Bob Howland Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 9:53 am
If Nikon can do it with the D700, why can’t Canon do it two years later with the 7D?
But 18MP??? C’mon folks, get real. 12MP is more believable.
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theskunk Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 1:24 pm
i thought canon said they felt they could top APS-C out at 18-22 MP??
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theskunk Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 1:25 pm
the trouble with speed has nothing to do with sensor size and everything to do with MP count so it doesn’t make sense to say they could never do 18MP at 8fps but could do it at APS-C, at least technically, now marketing may be another matter.
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Skeletor Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 12:19 am
Actually, thats not true. frame rate depends very much on sensor size. A larger sensor requires a larger mirror, and flipping a larger mirror up and down at high speeds becomes more difficult. DSLR designers go to great lengths to dampen camera vibrations from mirror movements.
You are mostly right, in that frame rate does depend on the processing speed of the data on the sensor, but there are other constraints.
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David Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 1:31 pm
So the Nikon D3 FF mirror box doesn’t exist? Your argument makes no sense when fast FF already does exist.
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Skeletor Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 3:19 pm
who said anything about fast FF not being possible? I said it becomes more difficult, implying that it is possible but will cost more money. This is why the Nikon D3 is a pro body. My argument makes perfect sense if you stop and think instead of being a flamer ninja.
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David Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 3:35 pm
How exactly is it more difficult?
Once the design is known it is just parts and production assembly like any other thing.
You’re assuming it’s more difficult and therefore more expensive, but unless it has some requirement like Florite in L lenses that is more expensive to make there is no basis to believe a fast FF requires quantum nano partical accelerated tritatium or some such thing especially given the D700 is very fast and moderately priced.
Reply
Anonymous Reply:
August 22nd, 2009 at 12:10 pm
why doesnt Canon come out with a battery grip that boost the performance of the FPS?
maybe a 7D with x amount of MP and 6fps+ reaching 8 with battery grip?
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Anonymous Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 8:13 pm
I don’t care much what Mr. Swan wrote, all I can say is I hope the cameras have DIRECT PRINT BUTTONS!!111one
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August 21st, 2009 at 6:56 am
If 7D will be APS-C, 18MP is the equivalent of 46MP full frame. Not likely.
If 7D will be APS-H, 18MP is the equivalent of 30MP full frame. Could be.
If 7D will be FF, 18MP is the equivalent of 7MP APS-C or 10MP APS-H. Hmmm…
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John Swan Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 6:58 am
Not true. Please post your workings for these calculations.
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Janne Sjöberg Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 7:45 am
Perfectly true.
FF: 36×24mm=864mm2
APS-H: 28×19mm=511mm2 (approximately)
APC-C: 23×15mm=338mm2 (approximately)
mm2/megapixel if 18mp
FF: 48
APS-H: 28
APS-C: 19
A FF sensor with the same pixel density as a 18mpixel APS-H would have 864/28=30 mpixel. A FF sensor with the same pixel density as a 18mpixel APS-C sensor would have 864/19=46 mpixel.
You shouldn’t accuse someone of falsehood until you check your own math…
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Costache Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 9:08 am
Thanks Janne,
Actually, I was using a simpler method, using the crop factor equivalents.
APS-C = 1.6 crop factor, therefore FF is 1.6^2 = 2.56 times bigger than APS-C.
APS-H = 1.3 crop factor, therefore FF is 1.3^2 = 1.69 times bigger than APS-H.
Using the math above and fractions :D APS-H is 1.51 times bigger than APS-C.
I was pretty good at math in school :D
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ya Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 8:18 am
fail
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Isurus Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 7:09 am
Math is your friend. I suggest you spend more time with it.
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Sebastian Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 8:00 am
Aside from some rounding goof-ups, he’s absolutely right. The important criterion in respect to low noise (=IQ) is pixel *density per area*.
Now *I* suggest *you* take a pen and a sheet of paper and review *your* math. ;-)
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Isurus Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 8:30 am
Errors are errors. I consider 1 to 2 mp off a big deal given how many we are talking about. I don’t consider 6.67% off reasonable. My math is fine.
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Isurus Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 8:41 am
Regardless, I was just being an ass (happens when you are an actuary). I should apologize. I agree with his statements completely. We aren’t going to see an 18 mp as it would have way more pixel density than I think the format is capable of (~approx. 46.8mp FF equiv).
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Sebastian Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 11:25 am
You must be accountant – sometimes 10% error are just fine. ;-)
Aside from that, I sense we at least do agree on the principle of Costache’s calculation. So I don’t see any good reason to argue about details. ;-)
But JFTR, these are the corrected numbers:
- 18MP APS-C scaled to APS-H: 29,2MP; scaled to FF: 46,1MP
- 18MP APS-H scaled to APS-C: 11,1MP; scaled to FF: 28,4MP
- 18MP FF scaled to APS-C: 7,0MP; scaled to APS-H: 11,4MP
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roger767 Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 7:10 am
what are you talking about???
18mp is 18 mp.
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Sean Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 7:49 am
Sensel size.
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gwac Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 8:38 am
What the heck’s a sensel??
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Sean Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 8:46 am
Sensor pixel.
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gwac Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 1:31 pm
Why not just “pixel”?
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Sean Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 1:44 pm
Because each sensor does not equate to a pixel in the scene – the values from the Bayer array are interpolated to appear as if all colors were captured at each sensor site, though we know this not to be the case. This is why Sigma / Foveon will report “MP” counts which are 3x higher than the actual number of sensels they use, because theirs are stacked vs. staggered like Canon / Nikon / Sony are doing. So more accurately, when we’re talking about megapixel count, we’re really talking about megasensel count – the MPs aren’t an accurate reflection of our true resolution.
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Lindsay Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 5:05 am
Sensel is an abbreviation of sensor element
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dave Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 3:31 pm
I’m hoping for the FF version.
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August 21st, 2009 at 7:04 am
18 MP’s @ 8FPS – you’d need twin digic 4’s to process that amount of data…not likely in a pro-sumer body.
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Anonymous Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 7:19 am
and what about a dgic V ?
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Costache Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 9:26 am
I agree. Digic 4 seems to top at 95MP processed each second:
- 50D is 15.1MP @ 6.3fps = ~95MP/s
- 5D MK2 is 21.1MP @ 3.9fps = ~82MP/s
18MP @ 8fps = 144MP/s; that’s almost 50% more CPU power than suggested Digic 4 capacity
Looking back:
Digic 2: between 30MP/s (400D) and 38.5MP/s (5D)
Digic 3: ~65MP/s (40D)
Dual Digic 3: 100MP/s (1D3, 1Ds3)
Digic 4: 95MP/s
For 150MP/s Canon needs a better CPU system (Dual Digic 4 or Digic 5)
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August 21st, 2009 at 7:11 am
This spec makes sense if we assume that they are indeed targeting the D300 directly as there’s been rumor they are. 8fps puts them one above Nikon; higher MPs will (hopefully) be the marketing dept’s last win in that regard; and a sensor-crop mode to shoot APS-C out of the APS-H body would be employed to hit that peak fps. Figure 5fps shooting in APS-H. What would be really cool would be if the crop mode could be switched dynamically / programmed to a Cx mode function so that you can switch rapidly during sports shooting, though it might be too cool a feature for the low end.
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August 21st, 2009 at 7:27 am
It will NOT be a full frame camera. (other specs are correct)
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rod Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 7:43 am
Good…i’d rather have the crop. As sean above says, I would love a 1.3x to 1.6x crop on the go feature from 5fps at 18MP 1.3x to 8fps at 10-12 MP at 1.6x.
So is Digic 5 being launched with this product too?
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C4n0n Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 7:53 am
;)
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regular Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 11:02 am
ah,ah. Another messiah type of guy.
I suppose answering about Digic 5 would give out too much about your identity to the FBI ? :|
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GeorgeML Reply:
August 22nd, 2009 at 3:16 am
OK, let’s play this then – is the sensor larger than 1.6x?
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August 21st, 2009 at 7:55 am
I would like to see Canon make the step to phase out APS-C sensors. I like these specs a lot more than the earlier ones that were floating arond. Could be awesome in a APS-H crop.
Here is a thought to kick around… does Canon change the line up all together and discontinue the xxD line? So all of the “Debbie Digitals” buy the xxxD line, the xD line assumes the “prosumer” group, and the 1D line is the top of the heap. The only difference being that the xD line you need to buy the battery grip like it is now. Could put some interesting preasure on Nikon, for the first time in… 18 – 20 months-ish
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gwac Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 1:44 pm
I never knew I was a Debbie Digital… I feel so chic!
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Anonymous Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 9:03 pm
Debbie wants her 1DsMkIV in pink.
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David Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 1:37 pm
There is no chance APS-C will be replaced prior to APS-H. They have a whole lens line dedicated to APS-C and most of the competition offers APS-C.
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August 21st, 2009 at 8:01 am
I go with the APS-H…
Since we have a prosumer 1Ds with the 5DMKII (which is still selling well) why not having a prosumer 1D with the 7D ? They will get in the customer that cannot wait for the next 1D MKIV (or whatever it will be called). Then they could try to sell them the 1DMKIV after.
Both 1D MKIV and 7D could share the same sensor (reducing Canon cost) but with different fps, features and of course bodies. Sounds ok to me. The point for Canon here is to have some xxD customer moving to the xD… and moving their EF-S lenses as well (think more selling for Canon)
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August 21st, 2009 at 8:01 am
It’s a FF …guarantee.
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c4n0n Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 10:35 am
nope
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Anonymous Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 5:37 pm
-1
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theskunk Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 1:31 pm
No way.
It might even be APS-C, although APS-H is certainly possible (the one bad thing about APS-H is the standard and wide lenses don’t match very well to APS-H).
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Lindsay Reply:
August 22nd, 2009 at 9:26 pm
That’s a pretty big “one bad thing” :)
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Anonymous Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 5:37 pm
+1
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August 21st, 2009 at 8:04 am
It’s a 4×5 inch sensor. Take it to the bank.
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gwac Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 8:39 am
sweet!
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Anonymous Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 9:14 am
I heard they’re actually using an array of direct print buttons instead of a sensor.
Its about time canon cut the useless junk out of their cameras…
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Anonymous Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 5:58 pm
wrong!!! its a 4×6 inch sensor… the direct print button can’t handle a crop
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August 21st, 2009 at 8:08 am
I’m moving to Canon and so do my Nikon shooter friends.
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NikoDoby Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 3:19 pm
Can I have your Nikons. Jee thanks Mister !!!
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Anonymous Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 5:39 pm
You’ve finally seen the light.
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August 21st, 2009 at 8:21 am
7D and 60D … <3 CANON <3
september ;)
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August 21st, 2009 at 8:23 am
Good indeed
But FF, APS-C, APS-H ?
That’s the question
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Anonymous Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 5:39 pm
FF
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August 21st, 2009 at 8:28 am
7D FF and 60D aps-c ;)
7D about 2100€
and 60D about 1400€
and hopefully more af-points!
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Anonymous Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 5:40 pm
+2
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August 21st, 2009 at 8:35 am
From what was said in the best buy rumour, the 7D was to be paired with a 28-135…I doubt it would be anything other than full-frame if it came with this lens – the focal length range just wouldn’t be right for a consumer (or ‘prosumer’) product. I think APS-H is mainly for pro shooters who do a lot of telephoto work and who want the extra speed that comes from not having to move as many pixels.
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Sean Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 8:37 am
The APS-C 1.6 bodies came with it, why wouldn’t marketing feel it to be fine for a 1.3? I don’t doubt that it’s an awkward lens when not on FF, only pointing out that Canon have put it on cropped bodies before without seeming to think anything of it.
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afrank99 Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 8:57 am
There is no APC-C bundle with a 28mm lens, standard consumer APS-C lenses always start at 17 or 18 mm.
All 1.6 bodies came with a 18-55.
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Sean Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 9:02 am
Funny, I bought a 30D bundled with a 28-135 f/3.5-5.6 IS new from B&H after looking at the identical kit at BB.
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Ben Schiendelman Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 4:53 pm
That’s an aftermarket kit, not a boxed Canon kit.
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Rob Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 9:21 am
Maybe where you live, but here in the US:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/580464-REG/Canon_2807B005_EOS_50D_SLR_Digital.html
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Ted Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 11:17 am
Must be the wide-open spaces of the US of A and the legendary dislike the citizenry have of walking anywhere that make the longer focal length more suitable in those parts. ;-)
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gwac Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 12:45 pm
You know us too well
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theskunk Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 1:32 pm
interesting in that I bought a 50D with a 28-135 IS and then sold the 28-135 IS….
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David Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 1:40 pm
Yep, the 28-135 has been in a xxD kit in the USA for a long time.
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Anonymous Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 9:15 am
Google is your friend,
tatatataaaaaa … Crop with 28-135mm:
40D:
http://tanktops2flipflops.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/canon-eos-40d-front-image.jpg
50D:
http://www.letsgodigital.org/images/artikelen/6/eos-50d.jpg
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August 21st, 2009 at 8:38 am
Instead of and affordable FF it looks like the 7D will be a new class of sports/action camera similar to what the 5DII is for Landscape. APS-H is most likely as they will want to distinguish from the 5DII and provide a little extra reach.
I agree with Dariel above. The 60D will not be a priority and we probably will not see the next xxD for a while (months?). I dont know why Canon would want to announce the next xxD until current xxD owners have had enough time to drool over the 7D and spend the extra money to upgrade.
When the next xxD does come out I suspect it will be marketed heavily to Rebel users to encourage them to upgrade. Not that the xxD may not be a reasonable upgrade to current xxD users; they just won’t be the target of advertising as Canon would prefer them to jump to the 7D.
The 7D will really be a hit if they found a way for it to support EF-S. EF-S capability will obviously be limited on a larger sensor but it would provide a transition path to xxD users that will already be spending more than they want on the 7D. Eventually these users will end up replacing their EF-S with EF lenses providing even more $$ for Canon.
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afrank99 Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 8:55 am
There is no extra reach with APS-H, and there is none with APS-C.
All you need is a crop-mode á la Nikon. Or crop it yourself at home.
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Sean Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 9:03 am
Sure, if you want to pay for all that extra sensor you’re not going to use, have at it. But I’ll save my pennies for other toys.
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Eric Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 9:12 am
I understand. But if you want fast you are going to be limited in MP. Until it starts degrading quality most action shooters would rather have those MP packed tigher on a smaller sensor giving the equivilent effect of reach.
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theskunk Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 1:37 pm
Well there isn’t in the basic sense that crop factor alone does nothing and it is all in the sensor density. BUT there is in a high-speed camera where it takes more processing power to support a given density as the sensor size goes up.
So for a speed camera they find the most MP they can push and then can spread that across APS-C,APS-H or FF and the smaller the sensor the more the effective reach at that total MP count as the density much obviously rise the smaller the sensor.
So yeah a FF 5D2 has more reach than a 10D or a 1D3, but that is only part of the potential issue.
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gwac Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 1:58 pm
Yes, if I could use my 10-22 on a 16+MP APS-H, the resulting cropped resolution (10+MP) would be sufficient for my purposes. If they somehow figured out how to use EF-S on FF, I would be less interested – the crop factor is too significant.
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August 21st, 2009 at 8:38 am
come on aps-h will never come again…
romours romours romours…
canon is not stupid
they will bring some eos beetween
the 50D and 5D mark 2!
and i think about one aps-c and one ff :P
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Anonymous Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 6:11 pm
u r right on
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August 21st, 2009 at 8:48 am
Consider this:
Canon has a convention that the lower the number, the more professional the product.
i.e. XD, XXD, XXXD (from most to least professional)
So, the 7D should fit between the 5D and 50D.
Therefore, if you follow this logic, any specs that make the 7D faster / better / cheaper than the 5D don’t make sense.
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afrank99 Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 8:54 am
Well, CHEAPER than the 5D makes sense.
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Ted Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 11:48 am
Don’t discount the relentless march of progress. The 5D2 is not going to be around forever (or even for much longer).
Besides, the 40D is both faster and cheaper than a 1Ds3 and, as the song goes, “two out of three ain’t bad.”
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Anonymous Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 6:15 pm
The 50D is faster at 6.3 FPS and cheaper.
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August 21st, 2009 at 8:50 am
I think it would be awesome if Canon split the 5D line like they have the 1D line.
Rebrand the current 5DII as a 5DsII and let that be the landscape/studio camera, and have a another 5D II with a lower MP and high FPS for more sporting… But that would be difficult given there already is a 5D II. Should have thought ahead Canon!
Maybe that is what they are planning with rumored 7D… The 5DII being the little 1Ds and the 7D being the little 1D…
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c4n0n Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 10:38 am
correct
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theskunk Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 1:49 pm
Since 18MP and 8fps and top AF, not even a year after 5D2 might worry some 5D2 owners :) were this to be FF, and moreso seeing the small lens mounted on the leak photo, etc., no way it can be FF.
Also, if it were a true baby brother to the 1D that would mean APS-H. (However if they use the new sensor tech it might still at least match 5D2 for low noise worrying 5D2 users :) although the lens lineup would be a lot less awkard with the 5D2 for non-action shooting).
Then again the 1D4 would need specs beyond human comprehension to outdo the 7D then :) and the lens looked like an EF-S so maybe it is only APS-C but with every performance spec known to mankind :) but then the BB $2700 sounds a little steep so…. so a shifting mirror or some new weird sort of lens.
Probably APS-H for the 7D with the 1D4 being something beyond human comprehension though and canon wants everyone to buy 1 5D2 and 1 7D to cover all bases perfectly :). Or maybe it has a shift mirror and support EF-S/APS-S lenses (but will corners fall to pieces and vignette badly with many of those?).
OK, the 7D is definitely APS-H (unless it is APS-C).
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David Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 1:46 pm
Why would 5D2 owners be worried about a lower MP fast FF body? They’d just buy it too, as I would. It’s a great complementary camera to the 5D2 or a 2nd body for the xD/Ds series. APS-H is going buh bye – it will not be on the 1D4 or the 7D because the competition is FF and the lenses are made for FF cameras or APS-C.
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August 21st, 2009 at 8:52 am
but i want some cheaper FF!!!
i pray for cheaper FF !!!
i’m not rich xD
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rod Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 9:06 am
why no go buy a 5D classic for less than half the price? The quality of the images it produces are simply stunning, indeed I prefer the look of the JPEGS from my 5D over my 5DMK2 at low iso’s.
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August 21st, 2009 at 9:08 am
Ok, so if it’s FF what is the point with the 5DMKII… should it be discontinued ?
Also, is it possible to flip a FF mirror at 8fps ?
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Anonymous Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 9:10 am
Nikon D700 does it!
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ms Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 9:20 am
canon has a film camera that does 10fps …. that FF ;)
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Dean Reply:
August 22nd, 2009 at 2:45 am
yep, to good ol’ 1v
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Bob Howland Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 10:33 am
“…is it possible to flip a FF mirror at 8fps?”
Ever hear of the Nikon D3 or D700??
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August 21st, 2009 at 9:12 am
i want someting new^^
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August 21st, 2009 at 9:27 am
Here’s a far fetched thought that could happen. What if, the 7D is a replacement for the 5DII and instead killing the 5DII Canon reduces it’s price to be in-line with the xxD series?
APS-C would be left for the consumer models. Though the only real issue is based on the image posted of the top of the shell, there’s a pop-up flash.
Even still it may be possible that Canon is going away from the xxD numbers 1 > 5 > 7. I just wish they say something sooner than later. I wonder if they’re waiting til PDN to make an announcement.
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theskunk Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 1:50 pm
FF sensor costs to much to drop it to $1400 or less for sure!! no way.
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August 21st, 2009 at 9:39 am
My guess is that this will not be FF, for then it effectively renders the 5dii obsolete, esp. if it has Digic V.
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Anonymous Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 9:43 am
I agree, I think it will be a 1.6 crop camera. I doubt that it will be 18mp, I think it will stay at 15mp and I would be surprised if its 8fps, probably 7 imo.
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August 21st, 2009 at 9:49 am
NOW I’m interested! Make it FF and I’ll get it at premium price once it is available.
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August 21st, 2009 at 10:08 am
CR Rating on this one?
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August 21st, 2009 at 10:12 am
I cant be the only “C” sensor on here that would consider a move to a larger sensor but that would want the larger sensor to support my EF-S lenses until I could afford to replace them. (
When Nikon put the “Crop-Mode” on the D3 a couple of years ago everyone thought it sounded great but the consensus seemed to be that there was a physical limitation in the EOS-EF design that prevented Canon from doing the same thing. (something would crash into something else?). I think most of the conversation at the time was always talking about FF. Does anyone recall what the limitation was or know if it would be possible to create an APS-H that could accept “C” lenses?
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Sean Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 10:24 am
The limitation is the lens->mirror distance, and as some folks have had luck attaching a modified EF-S 10-22 to a 1D body, it may in fact be possible to allow their attachment if the desire is there corporately.
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John Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 10:48 am
i don’t have any ef-s lenses, but i can tell you that if you put a sigma 50-150mm 2.8 (designed for aps-c) on a 1dmk2n, it works fine mechanically. The vignetting is not bad at all, surely since “every” wedding photog adds vignetting to the image anyway. if i put my 17-50mm tamron (designed for aps-c) on my canon 1v FF film, the mirror will phyiscally hit the back of the lens.
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zach Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 5:13 pm
third partys only reproduce ef mount
even if its and ef-s lens it has ef mount
canon has a little rubber ring cause they make the back foucus shorted to take advantage of the smaller mirror and improve iq
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anonymous Reply:
August 22nd, 2009 at 12:17 am
really? what about the Tamron AF 18-250mm f/3.5-6.3 Di II with a red dot bayonet?
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zach Reply:
August 22nd, 2009 at 12:19 am
ok well thats what i thought this wouled be the first time i have been wrong
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Zac Reply:
August 22nd, 2009 at 1:48 pm
red dot bayonet is EF mount, zach you are correct, my personal experience confirms yours
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August 21st, 2009 at 10:15 am
i am inclined to think it will be a FF
The tendancy is FF and it’s important to be among the first to sell such cameras
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ZT Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 10:27 am
+1 I just hope Canon does understand that.
I want to move to FF anyway so EF-S mount in this case will be an irrelevant issue for me. Its not like Canon is abandoning EF-S, its just a matter of giving its customers an inexpensive FF camera.
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Nick Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 10:36 am
I would laugh my ass off if all these 7d rumors are totally bunk and there is no such thing. just sayin.
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Anonymous Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 11:09 am
Not unlikely.
2000D – 60D – 1D MKIV
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c4n0n Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 10:40 am
Sorry, no FF
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John Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 10:56 am
my guess is that most of the current aps-c users that are screaming “it has to be FF” and “aps-h” is dead… don’t even have any reason to require FF over a aps-h or aps-c camera, or would even notice any difference in DoF. …much less go as far a to have ever calculated actual DoF. They just want it because it’s bigger.
The megapixel race is over and now the sensor size race has begun.
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Anonymous Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 6:24 pm
another amateurs are dumb post… good one John, you’re so smrt.
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Anonymous Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 6:46 pm
APS-H is dead
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BS Reply:
August 22nd, 2009 at 1:28 pm
I’m an amateur… and have calculated DOF mathematically. And because I do mostly macro work I would hate for the 60D to be FF or APS-H, because I really enjoy the 1.6X magnification. For macro work it really helps, especially if you don’t have enough money for a 180mm macro and your subjects include venomous snakes such as mambas and cobras… The difference in quality doesn’t really weigh up to the advantages from being a bit further away!
But if they have a 60D with about 15MP and more AF-points I’ll be upgrading in an instant. If they also bring out a 7D … well that is for someone else to get excited about!
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August 21st, 2009 at 10:28 am
A lot of sense in the comments here, but a lot of nonsense as well.
I totally agree to the pixel density issue, pointed out by several people. 18Mp is really too tight in terms of pixel density…but 15 MP on APS-C has already been achieved and Canon is THE only brand having enough R&D capabilities and Assets to develop their own sensors (SOny must be pissed off to repeatedly be asked to redesign their sensors completely in a far better fashion just by following the spec by Nikon, for the a900 and D3X, for the a700 and D300…). Canon could to this again but I highly doubt it considering their recent outcome (Take in consideration the real demanding market, like photojournalists, and the come back to CCD and 10 MP for G11), even if I think it’s marginal.
APS-C? Out of question, it will put disorder in the XXD lineup if this is 7D.
APS-H? Yeah maybe as it was said before by Costache. Canon is well aware of the competition and is fully aware of the lack of their global lineup. People are still using the 10MP ultra fast 1D3, not for the speed (nearly topped by D3 if used properly), just for the focal range. APS-H has a huge success among sport shooter who don’t have too much use of very shallow depth of field (APS-H DoF is already good) There were rumors among pro sport shooter Canon won’t give up such a profitable population. Will the 7D be APS-H? good question…will there be a cheaper APS-H camera? I think definitely…but not now (3D?)
Full Frame? Honestly I don’t know, the sensor from 5d2 was an updated version of the 1dS Mk3, and wasn’t following the 18MP the rumors pretended the 5D2 would have. In asia, there was the same rumors. I think the 5d2 is a small step up of past generation of sensors, and that Canon did this while having not enough good results with the 16-18 Mp we were all talking about last year, and in reaction of Sony 24MP and to trump D700 with just 12MP. Canon has no consideration with numbers, if the DIGIC 5 is ready like the rumors said, it will be implemented no matter what the camera is. COnsidering that the Digic 4 is able to handle 5d2 21Mp at let’s say 3,5 fps, and considering that (having worked in computing technology helps, I did) there is generally a doubled processing capability between two generations of embedded processing unit, I think that all the next Canon’s with more than 15 Mp AND more than 6-7 fps will have DIgic 5, only one is enough (1dS was the exception with dual Digic 3, but it needed it for 21 Mp) an two are too expensive.
Finally for my analysis, I would consider lenses…Canon lenses are THe big problem now, that’s why they put a lot of efforts on new tech and new design for actual lenses. Canon is being blasted by the nikkor 14-24 which is a magnificent lense. Some of my medium-format-using-”Mamiblad Forever”-pals were puzzled with the tonal rendition and crispness of D3X with this lense. As I said, except for recent EF-S, the canon regular linup lenses are too old / shaby, and this even more obvions with amazing work from nikon recently. I really think the new 70-200 from nikon will be top notch. The L lenses are amazing, but not that much when compared to nikkor G lenses. The 16-35 II L (from 2006 only) is really raped by 14-24 from nikon (especially in the corners). Canon really needs to rethink the design and technology of the lenses,like the droopy design of 24-70 which kills the crispness with mechanical fatigue of the moving ball bearings after moderate use… But they can do it. Recent work with TS-E, is simply amazing. I know they are working on a 24-70L II with IS, but they have problems on the design AND the new coatings tech. Canon is always first on technology, and Nikon uses only proven try and tested design for lenses. Add to this that the production is not consistent. I am pissed off having to check the calibration of the lenses, even L…front focus and back focus, glass alignment. the “Canon Game” we are all aware of (“oooh I have a so good copy I am so happy !”).
Today, the lenses are problematics AND the only cheap ticket for IS zoom compatible with APS-H or FX is the 28-135…If you want my point, the 28-105 is far more crisp and good (and cheap!!) but no IS. It has been tested by French Magazine “Chasseur d’Image” as “surprisingly good lense on 5d2″ and granted 5 stars (top grade). The picture with 7D and 24-105 is a photoshop, not-so-bad work, but I saw it already during last summer (and even before) waiting for 5D sucessor. My analysis is : The aim is to make the cheapest all-round ticket possible (so With IS). Canon lenses will come slowly (though I really hope I am wrong, I have high hopes for a revamped 17-40 f4, which was made 2002 or 2001, which could be a very good and cheap L UWA lense).
Do not think camera-wise (ok I am spotted, I am an engineer), but technology wise…I think the 18 MP full frame we heard about had not been cancelled.
IF the 18MP information is true : the sensor will be a full Frame…what for? we already have 5D2, pro still want APS-H (you won’t see anytime soon a change in the color of sport pro shooter), So? There will be another full frame camera, could be the 7D. if it’s wrong….then we have no clues finding out. More AF points? Yeah we need that definitely, time to change old 9 points…
So here is my take : There is sense in making the cheapest FF pack on the market…a lot of photographers would love that (A huge majority of freelance photographers are not rich, with poor personnal gear…usually 40D or D200 used to the rope and trying to get the most of their camera). There could be a Cheap FF, with a cheap kit (28-135 IS) with quite good AF and good spead. Canon will have to decide wether they want to regain market share the non pro segment, ot wether they prefer to show respect to the buyers of 5D2…honnestly, I think the first option.
Lense are not up to such a high density pixel as APS-C 15Mp…it’s has been proven by several tests online (but I doubt they checked focus accuracy and potential need of Micro adjustment). The best lense canon has is 17-55 IS USM, for APS-C. Too expensive, and still with drawbacks. There could be a step backward in terms of sensor between 50D and 60D. The 15Mp of the 50D were already really optimised.
Anyway, I think that Canon as awaken, and that the huge success of 5D2 is a relief because at this price point…it is still relevant comparing to the D700 (a great camera) and a900. If you have taken a look through a900 viewfinder OMG ! waw! It reminds me the old times! AF is a pity on the 5d2, really…So in terms of AF, any rumors on AF increase is possible.
18 MP are less demanding than 21…but only on FF…and then you consistently make a kit with the 28-135 IS…I think it’s a credible hypothesis, and this would be a real commercial sucess…And will push even more Canon to settle down to the Lens work !
Good evening everybody
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Sean Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 10:38 am
Excellent analysis and I rather agree with you in bulk. I think you’d find the patent linked above, btw, given your background.
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Justin Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 11:07 am
Nice analysis. I think this makes a lot of sense. Pricing an 18 mpx FF with better AF and more FPS at $2600 would work and sell hotcakes. The 5D2 is 9 months old or more now and cannot be expected to stay atop the state of the art pile forever. Canon leaps its older cameras all the time in some of its features.
Your discussion of lenses is spot on. A killer 24-70II would do a lot for Canon, as would a matching 70-200II. That said, I think the long telephoto lens redesigns are going to be deadly. What Canon was able to accomplish with the 24 tse is just remarkable.
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Ted Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 12:02 pm
I don’t think APS-C is out of the question. Birders and sports shooters keep calling for APS-C with serious weather-proofing, better AF, more speed, etc. That would make it too expensive to be an xxD, but it could be an xD pro body. Maybe that’s the 7D and it is priced the same as a FF 5D2 (which hasn’t got the same build quality or AF). Then they slot a 3D FF compact body above the 5D2 (with similar spec to the 7D, save for the sensor) and drop the 5D2 price a bit. Meantime, the 1D/1Ds get boosted into Nikon D3x pricing territory. (“It’s more expensive, so it must be better.”)
Nikon have essentially done this. They stick the same sensor in different bodies (D700/D3) and different sensors in the same body (D300/D700). It works for them and it must save on parts.
Meantime, the 60D gets the expected bunch of updates (video, performance tweaks, etc.) and they drop the price. That would straddle the pricing of a Nikon D300s with a Canon 60D and 7D, all APS-C. Canon seem to like pitching their cameras into their competitors’ gaps, rather than competing like-for-like.
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regular Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 12:11 pm
Your comment relies a little too much on beliefs to be qualified as a rational analysis.
I would rather call it ‘wishful thinking’.
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gwac Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 1:16 pm
Yes, I think we all need some insight into the mysteries of the Canon marketing dept before pulling out the crystal ball.
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theskunk Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 1:55 pm
I think DIGIC are very inexpensive, even low-end little few dollar P&S use the a DIGIC.
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theskunk Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 1:56 pm
but FF is expensive so saying the need to only use one DIGIC to save money but can easily toss in FF makes no sense at all.
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Erik Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 1:56 pm
Given a price similar to 5D2, naming and specs as indicated, it make sense that 7D will be APS-H. I suggest that it also will accept aps-c lenses in crop mode and the AF will autofocus down to f8. Then it will not compete with landscape photographing on 5DmkII, it will match both the Nikon D300s and 50D on APS-C, but give something more that will give uservalue for a premium price.
Canon will try to launch something that will tempt Canon APS-C users to pay more for a camera, like with 5D2. Production wise they can reuse existing AF design from 1D in a downscaled version.
For me as a 40D user, I would gladly pay more for a precise and better tracking autofocus for sports and nature to match my longe teles. Such a value proposition would be tempting, like I’m also tempted by the Nikon 300D, but don’t have the Nikon lenses. I would also be tempted to buy more full frame wide angles and after a while supplement with a newer fullframe 5D3. Makes sense for Canon, makes sense for me.
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Eric Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 3:39 pm
If you notice my other posts, some of which you appear to have read, we are very much on the same page.
Where we dissagree is on how you spell Eric. It should have a “C”. …only a detail I suppose.
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Anonymous Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 5:19 pm
agreed.
coming from a XXD series .. any EF-S lenses, you can still use them. plus any L lenses, primes, etc that you have purchased for your kit, immediately get a FOV benefit.
if this body is going against the D300 .. that alone as far as compatability and capability will make an excellent selling feature.
18Mp APS-H .. 12Mp APS-C .. would be a perfect combination of pixel density for both existing “moving up” candidates from the XXD series, and also provide a serious compelling second body option for 1D users.
Assuming canon can keep the noise down to the same as the D700 for “image noise”, not per pixel .. then it even matches up well against the D700 .. providing again, the best of both worlds as a compromise .. the D700 with a 5Mp DX crop doesn’t provide anywhere close to a “move up” category as a 18Mp APS-H sensor would deliver.
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John Swan Reply:
August 22nd, 2009 at 6:52 am
Dariel, this is a legendary post. Thank you for your detailed analysis. I have a lot of respect for you. Are you on Twitter? I would like to subscribe to your feeds if you are.
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Dariel Reply:
August 22nd, 2009 at 2:47 pm
Thank you for this.
No I am not on Twitter (yet). In my team, we consider this to be mainly a big waste of time. More than the private life problems (heard about localizing post feature?), it’s full of inconsistent information and comments. It requires self discipline as well as a good load of abstraction skill, to identify the potential useful info. Anyway, I can as well turn myself from this noble Idea and subscribe (I try to resist!).
Finally, I don’t think I can cope with twitter concept, my post are usually too long anyway !
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Anonymous Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 8:16 pm
Mmm and “threads” on Canon Rumors are different…how?! :P
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August 21st, 2009 at 10:36 am
keep them rumors coming, at the end of the day we’ll what will rest
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August 21st, 2009 at 11:05 am
It has to have a processor nearly double the 5D2 (ok, so like 9/5) but still, I think its too much resolution, too close to 5D2 resolution to be so fast. I could buy 15MP 7 fps.
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August 21st, 2009 at 11:07 am
why would someone buy the Canon “7D” and not the new 5d MK II ???
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Thorpeland Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 11:19 am
Easy. The reason I skipped the 5DMkII was because I shoot sports and would like more than 3.9fps. That was a big one for me.
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Isurus Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 1:34 pm
+1
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Malte Reply:
August 22nd, 2009 at 6:21 am
5D2: slow but very good image quality
7D: fast but not that good imagequality
That´s logical.
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August 21st, 2009 at 12:28 pm
Expect this:
A body (whether a 60D or 7D) with a new WIDE sensor. Why? Because video in a FF body is an expensive waste of sensor area. The sensor is 3:2, but only a 16:9 crop is used.
Let’s call the new sensor format “APS-W”. It will be 14.8mm high, like Canon’s APS-C, but 26.3mm wide instead of just 22.2mm. Here is what it gives you:
1. Not much more expensive than APS-C, as it is not much bigger.
2. Native 16:9 resolution for widescreen video capture using all of the sensor.
3. Because it is wider and not taller, the mirror will not slap the back of an EF-S lens (suggesting it’s a 60D).
4. A 3:2 crop mode, but if you shoot stills in 16:9, your 24-XXXmm lens has an effective focal length of 33mm on the long axis instead of 38mm. Nice.
5. Fast, low-noise, 3×3 binning for 1920×1080 HD video would mean an 18.7MP sensor. They can sell it as an 18.7MP camera, even if the 3:2 crop still only uses 15.8MP.
APS-W is coming. I have seen it.
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Henk Van Oosterom Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 12:29 pm
funny idea!
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gwac Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 1:19 pm
You have seen it in R&D labs or in your delusions of grandeur?
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Ted Reply:
August 22nd, 2009 at 7:26 am
“Delusions of grandeur” is the wrong phrase in this context; it’s just a plain old delusion.
Actually, there was mention on North Light Images a few weeks ago about an “S35″ sensor in an upcoming Canon DSLR. “S35″ is “Super 35″, a wide-screen film format. Delusion or not, if HD video becomes a big deal in DSLRs, then matching the sensor aspect ratio to that format would be a logical advance to ensure maximum picture quality. It’s already starting to happen in some of the compact cameras from other manufacturers. Also, people are making less prints and viewing images more and more on monitors and TVs, where 16:9 is dominating new sales.
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Rox Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 1:48 pm
And as noisy as the 50D ?
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Ted Reply:
August 22nd, 2009 at 7:17 am
Of course, that goes without saying.
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zach Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 5:27 pm
lieca (however its spelt) ps cameras have a native aspect ratio of 16:9 atleast the one i saw for sale on craigslist
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David Reply:
August 24th, 2009 at 5:30 pm
aren’t those made by Panasonic?
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zach Reply:
August 24th, 2009 at 9:13 pm
does it matter?
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Rob Reply:
August 22nd, 2009 at 10:42 am
I actually had this same sort of thought yesterday, as a way to get more MP without having to do anything weird to allow EF-S lenses and high frame rate. I’d buy this camera. It would help me get more detail out of a lot of my landscape shots. We live in a wide world. :) (But, portrait mode would look down-right skinny!)
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Malte Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 9:25 am
EF-S? Vigneting?
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Ted Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 11:46 am
What of it? EF-S will work fine for a 3:2 stills and there can be an automatic crop mode for video if an EF-S is attached. How about 1080p on EF and 720p on EF-S?
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August 21st, 2009 at 12:42 pm
If this is a action/wildlife camer with an updated autofocus will it include the ability to autofocus with F8?
A high end, but not quite pro camera might want to support an advanced amerature budget that is forced to use extenders.
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August 21st, 2009 at 12:44 pm
If this camera is FF and priced close to 5Dmk2, who would buy 5Dmk2 then?
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Justin Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 1:36 pm
It doesn’t matter if anyone buys it, so long as Canon sells a ton of the new Camera. Anyway, if the new camera is specked differently, it will have a different market. Will it eat into the sales of the 5D2, maybe, but if it does so at the same price, it’s not much of a loss for Canon.
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Anonymous Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 6:56 pm
unless of course it costs more to make
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August 21st, 2009 at 1:46 pm
I wish CR did polls. I would ask:
What would you rather have for $2699
A 5D2
or a 7D
specd this way:
18 mp FF
6 fps
Improved AF with 19pts
M.fn button
Video
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Henk Van Oosterom Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 1:52 pm
7D, no hard choice
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Anonymous Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 5:06 pm
Depends .. if the 7D is a APS-H or APS-C.
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dave Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 6:44 pm
Add dual cards, proper weather seals, video 1080 24p, 25p, 30p, 720 at 60p.
And if your really going for the fences, built-in flash commander, just like the D300, D300s and D700.
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August 21st, 2009 at 2:20 pm
[quote]I don’t think APS-C is out of the question. Birders and sports shooters keep calling for APS-C with serious weather-proofing, better AF, more speed, etc. That would make it too expensive to be an xxD, but it could be an xD pro body.[/quote]
I fully agree: I do need an APS-C sensor, and if I do not get it from Canon, I will have no other choice than to get such a body from Nikon. I will maybe not fully move to Nikon because of my lenses, but it will cost me less money than buying a 600/4L which, in everycase, I cannot transport in my backbag because I am not Hulk …
So still waiting for an APS-C !
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anonymous Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 2:54 pm
Total nonsense BS.
If APS-C sensors were the ultimate choice for birders and sports, then you would have EF-s tele lenses.
Do you know why they dont exist? Because it is difficult to design a high-resolution tele lens, and the higher pixel density of APS-C sensors is useless.
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Anonymous Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 4:19 pm
Total nonsense BS.
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August 21st, 2009 at 2:27 pm
Those 7D would be the next successor of 1D series, might be an APS-H.
Wanna bet???
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Anonymous Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 9:30 pm
You’re on….$1,000,000.00 on the table.
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zach Reply:
August 24th, 2009 at 9:19 pm
all in! i bet anonymous life! and my 40ds direct print button
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August 21st, 2009 at 2:34 pm
Gosh those would be the specs that I want! Fullframe?
18mp
8fps
19 AF Points
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August 21st, 2009 at 2:47 pm
whooohoooo YES !! hope its true! anyone know a price estimation?
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regular Reply:
August 22nd, 2009 at 12:30 am
$2700 if you trust Best Buy.
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August 21st, 2009 at 3:00 pm
This definitely has my interest. I’ll be interested to see final specs and price point.
My 5DmkII is trucking along, but its hard to not be interested in whats hot and new in the DSLR world!
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bebopcola Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 3:01 pm
apparently i like the word interest too
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August 21st, 2009 at 3:13 pm
Here’s what’s coming, and the logic behind why.
60D: The 50D is kind of in no-man’s land sitting between the Rebel T1i and D90 on the low end, and the D300(s) on the high end. Prosumers looking at the xxD range are expecting, at the very least, improved image quality (read: lower noise) and better auto-focus than the model below it, and the 50D just didn’t deliver. I think if Canon offered a one stop improvement in noise, comparable AF and features to the D300s, and priced it around $1400, then it would sell like hotcakes. Basically, it should compete more with the D300s than the D90, but at a more attractive price. The 60D will fill this void.
7D: This one seems virtually 100% these days, but no one really knows what the specs will be. I think Canon and Nikon can both see that FF is the future for the prosumer segment (read: xxD and higher), and this will be the first salvo in the battle for those customers that are willing to spend more than what a 50D goes for, but doesn’t want to splurge for a 5DII. The ideal price-point for this lower-cost FF seems to be in the $1800-$2000 range, and that’s where I imagine the 7D will hit. People may say this will cannibalize the 5DII sales, but Canon’s not dumb. They see that there is *much* more volume at this lower price-point, and that will only help bring the price of FF down. It’s the same thing they did with the Rebel line. As for the sensor, it doesn’t really make sense for the 7D to use the same 21MP sensor as the 5DII, so I believe it would be in the 12MP (improved 5D sensor) to 18MP (based on rumors) range. To me, the 12MP option makes the most sense, as it would compete directly with the D700, but at a much lower price. I personally think 16MP is the sweet spot, but I’m tired of waiting for it. I think Canon will also look to improve the auto-focus, video, and other minor complaints from the 5DII, and while current 5DII owners will feel a little short-changed, I’m sure they’ll fix that next year with a 5DIIN or something.
As for what Nikon will do in return, I would imagine that they will release the D700x in October at a sub-$3000 price-point (to compete with the 5DII), and reduce the price of the D700 to around $2000 to compete with the 7D.
We’ll see soon enough.
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Anonymous Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 5:04 pm
60D: .. so basically you want pro AF and all the goodies of a D300s .. at 1400 .. and think oh yes, that is profitable to do so. Of course, fabrication of AF systems, shutters, mirror boxes, et all … doesn’t cost a thing .. right?
7D: Price has already been identified as 2700 .. you’re a little off.
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Skeletor Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 3:24 pm
actually, the $2700 price was just a rumor. Tied to this rumor were prices for the new P&S cameras, which were also off.
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Adam Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 5:35 pm
The post about using the 7D in the sub $2000 price range to compete against (and crush) the D700 market makes perfect sense to me if Canon is interested in stopping the hemorrhaging in their customer base going to Nikon and start eroding Nikon’s customer base.
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dave Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 6:07 pm
It would be a mistake for canon to make a 12mp D700 competitor. The D700 is going to 24mp by Nov 2009 with the D700x. Which is why I’m believing the rumor of 18mp FF from Canon.
But Canon really needs to address the AF issues. More AF points and it has to actually work, none of this 1D3 redo, redo. redo stuff.
True full weather seals.
Nikon D300s went to dual cards and so will the D700x. This 7D also needs to be dual card.
And finally video. 1080 24p, 25p, 30p and 720 at 60p.
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Bob Howland Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 6:29 pm
Is the D700 going to 24MP or is a 24MP D700X being added to the Nikon lineup? I think a D700X is being added and the current D700 is staying in the lineup. And I think that a D700 competitor is exactly what Canon needs.
The D300s probably went to dual cards so that (1) buyers moving up from lower cost cameras, most/all of which use SD cards, would not have to buy new cards and (2) owners of higher end cameras, all of which used CF cards, who want a high speed DX camera won’t have to buy new cards. It seems reasonable for Canon to do the same thing for the 60D, 7D and 5DMkIII, but I think that the 1D series should have dual slots using the same type cards, presumably compact flash.
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dave Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 6:39 pm
You maybe right, a 12mp D700 and a 24mp D700x….but for me 12mp is not enough and 24mp I don’t need…..the sweet spot for me is 16mp.
So if Canon can do a modern 16mp FF, advanced AF, weather sealed, 7 FPS, dual card, with video at 1080 24p, 25p, 30p and 720 at 60p.
Then I’m in.
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dave Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 6:41 pm
Also for me the dual card is a pro thing, backup during weddings in case a card does bad, don’t want a mad client.
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dannyROD Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 7:23 pm
That’d be a dream camera come true for me! Perfect balance of everything . . .
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David Reply:
August 24th, 2009 at 5:33 pm
Here’s my credit card info…
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Malte Reply:
August 22nd, 2009 at 6:18 am
Oh yeh, the SD and CF cards are a big reason for buying a camera….
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Dave Reply:
August 22nd, 2009 at 11:39 am
I’m not sure whether you think dual card is a good idea or not as a reason to buy a specific camera body.
The case for a dual card body is to limit risks….a D300s is $1800, if you average wedding price is $3000 to $6000, then $1800 is a very small price to pay for the “insurance” that one of the card doesn’t go bad.
It’s call “risk” analysis. The study of those components of your business, that if they fail what is the impact on your business.
Its why pro use more than 1 body on a shoot, use several smaller cards rather then 1 big card, have insurance in case a wedding guest trips over a light stand, why you have RAID hard drives and a backup off-site.
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Bob Howland Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 2:33 pm
So which camera are you more likely to buy, the one that uses cards that you already have or the one that relegates the cards you own to the trash and makes you spend money, perhaps several hundred dollars, to replace them?
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Mark Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 9:40 pm
Canon’s marketing strategy will not allow them to make a camera with every pro feature and sell it for under 3K. so forget canon version of d700.
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Bob Howland Reply:
August 22nd, 2009 at 8:23 am
I love the way people seem to assume that marketing strategies exist in a competitive vacuum. If Canon’s competitor (i.e., Nikon) is making “a camera with every pro feature and sell[ing] it for under 3K”, thereby causing Canon to lose market share, then wouldn’t Canon be forced to respond by changing its “marketing strategy”
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Malte Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 9:17 am
Why can Nikon do this but Canon not?
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August 21st, 2009 at 3:37 pm
Odd… I made a thorough post a while back and now its gone. Anyone else ever see their posts disappear?
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August 21st, 2009 at 4:19 pm
http://www.nivell10.com/seccion.asp?seccion=5&titulo=Fotograf%EDa
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John Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 4:51 pm
what’s the camera pictured? are you just spamming or trying to direct us to the camera pictured? not sure…
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Glenn Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 5:29 pm
Interesting. Bling Translation for the text on the photo: CMOS sensor, CCD 8.5 backflushing frames / sec. Full frame sensor.
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Bob Howland Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 5:49 pm
The lens on it seems to be a 17-85 f/4-5.6.
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August 21st, 2009 at 5:58 pm
I have nothing to add technically or rumor-wise, but, just FYI, I have found this chain of comments both fascinating and useful. Until now I have been saving, intensely scrutinizing both the 50D and 5D2. My 300D is shown up by dim high school stadiums, even with 70-200 L IS USM attached. I want a good sports shooter with great image quality for everything else and direct print (just kidding about that last feature). I hope 60D or 7 is between the 50D and 5D2 with reasonable price point.
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August 21st, 2009 at 5:59 pm
i imagine that the BB price is (as often is the case) just a placeholder, and is subject to radical change (it, e.g., could be a kit price).
if they can control the noise, offer a considerable AF-quality increase (including AF point increase, spread out over more of the frame), and maintain or even increase the speed of the xxd line, i’d buy one to go with my 5D2. cheers.
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Bob Howland Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 6:35 pm
The BB price for the G11 was $599. The Canon MSRP is $499. So, yes, the BB price for the 7D body and kit could be subject to change…or not. My guess is that Canon USA hasn’t yet finalized the MSRPs for the 7D body and kit.
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Anonymous Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 8:56 pm
it isn’t going to be off as much as the wishfull fantasies in this comment section. plan on it being “close”.
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GeorgeML Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 11:41 pm
Well, a lot of people assume it’s going to be FF or 1.3x.
If it turns out to be 1.6x, nobody is going to pay more than $2000 for it.
And I bet it will be 1.6x, so the BB is off by about $1000.
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August 21st, 2009 at 6:26 pm
After comparing a up sized version in photoshop
with 40D and 50D photos
there are differences between them.
so it might be a 60D.
but then I thought it might look like a 30D…
all the different things match.
so imho it’s a photo of a 30D
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J-Man Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 6:28 pm
http://atinyblip.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/canon-eos-30d-front3.jpg
even has a 17-30 like in this photo.
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August 21st, 2009 at 8:52 pm
Here is what’s coming to a theatre near you: 60D, upgraded 50D, spec beneath D300s and 7D above D300s with higher spec. Will compete with D700 but not FF.
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theskunk Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 9:05 pm
that makes sense
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August 21st, 2009 at 10:03 pm
7D at FF with 18 MP and 8fps with the upgraded AF as the original rumor indicated would be hard to beat. It would get my $$. Only thing missing would be AF at f8 so my 500 with 2X could AF. If it is APS-H the 18 MP would be a noise stretch. Hate to do high in camera noise suppression and lose detail the 18 MP can provide.
I hope what ever is coming sets the new standard for digital imaging.
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Anonymous Reply:
August 21st, 2009 at 10:47 pm
It will set a new standard, but will not be FF
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wife of Anonymous Reply:
August 22nd, 2009 at 12:48 am
I told you to stop harassing people on the web, ok?
Reply
Anonymous Reply:
August 22nd, 2009 at 3:47 am
Sorry darling, but this is the only way i can tell people…..
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August 22nd, 2009 at 12:13 am
Is this person on dpreview a known source or something? Why are his comments notable?
Reply
August 22nd, 2009 at 12:54 am
[...] [via Canon Rumors] [...]
August 22nd, 2009 at 2:35 am
http://www.max2.tw/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/canon_60d_f.jpg
found that a while ago,
dont think its real, is it?
Reply
Anonymous Reply:
August 22nd, 2009 at 3:34 am
fake, no video (mic holes)…
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August 22nd, 2009 at 3:00 am
The 16×9 option makes sense as some people are more interested in big format wide HD video than the still function, or even faster f.p.s. burst coverage. 7.5
f.p.s. is a quarter fraction of 30 f.p.s., so that 15 f.p.s.
streaming on-line or 30 f.p.s. Ultra D-video could be emulated from a 7.5 burst rate. Remember, most low-end HD video is taken with a tiny 1/3 inch sensors (or 3), which is not very satisfactory at the same $3000- price point. HD will gradually become accepted as a “must have” feature, and these SLRs will be able to shoot Ultra-HD wider frames, in 7.5 motion, and perhaps even sync sound, with a a new file format. Hell, I’d gladly pay $5grand for such a camera!
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J-Man Reply:
August 22nd, 2009 at 3:21 am
“Ultra-HD wider frames, in 7.5 motion”
are you referring to a ratio like 2.35:1 at a resolution of 4K?
if so, it will be a few years till that will happen,
you need high bandwidth processing and tons of storage.(in Tb)
Reply
August 22nd, 2009 at 5:17 am
What if the new Canon 7D has a APS-H sensor AND its APS-C capable, too?!
I mean (for exapmle) 18Mb as APS-H and 12Mb as APS-C? Compatible with EF-S Lenses too?
What do you think?
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Malte Reply:
August 22nd, 2009 at 6:05 am
No, FF and APS-H are NOT compatible with EF-S. There is a big issue with the mirror.
btw. There will be no more APS-H cameras.
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Anonymous Reply:
August 22nd, 2009 at 12:21 pm
lack of imagination .. full frame would be difficult, but APS-H has a smaller mirror, and therefore, it would simply be a mechanical movement adjustment to allow enough clearance.
APS-H has a mirror width of around 18.5mm, versus around 15mm with APS-C.
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Zac Reply:
August 22nd, 2009 at 12:55 pm
do explain to me how one moves the mirror and still has the lens focus the image in the pentaprism at the same distance as the sensor? I really don’t care to just trust my AF if my viewfinder shows me blurry stuff
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Anonymous Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 3:22 pm
easy .. the mirror the last time I checked an SLR .. “pivots” on the way up out of the way. when it “pivots” up does the EF-S protruding element become a problem with the mirror – it hits it.
it’s a pretty simply mechanical task to have that mirror when it pivots “up”, shift “back” slightly so it clears the EF-S element.
APS-C to APS-H would only have to have around a 1.5mm shift “back” or so for it to clear.
alot of people have mounted 10-22 on 1D series bodies .. it doesn’t clear the mirror at around 10-12 mm which would indicate it’s very close.
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David Reply:
August 24th, 2009 at 5:38 pm
except EF-S lenses are designed for 1.6 crop not 1.3 – so its *vinette city* on the wide angles which defeats the whole purpose of trying to stick EF-S on an APS-H sensor body making the mirror box a non-issue.
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Anonymous Reply:
August 24th, 2009 at 6:24 pm
since the mount is mechanically different on EF-S . I’m sure canon can trigger a crop mode to take a 18Mp APS-H sensor output down to a 12Mp APS-C sensor output without too much difficulty.
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David Reply:
August 24th, 2009 at 6:54 pm
Crop a crop sensor? hahaha, sure, and they could even crop it down to micro4/3 size too…but seriously, the whole concept for putting EF-S on APS-H is to recover the wide angle and yet you’d have to crop it more to make it work…problem is the glass diameter is not wide enough so you’d get vinetting or you’d have to crop it down to APS-C size anyway so you’re better off just getting an APS-C body.
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GeorgeML Reply:
August 22nd, 2009 at 12:55 pm
That’s good to hear.
But how are they going to squeeze 18mp on 1.6x?
I don’t think the 7D will be well received if it’s even noisier than the 50D.
Do they have some new technology?
Canon needs to go back to the 20D noise performance *at the pixel level*. Then the extra resolution will only be an asset, not a liability.
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Malte Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 9:21 am
They´re not going to “squeeze” the 18mpx. It´s FF
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GeorgeML Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 12:58 pm
Keep dreaming for FF ;)
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August 22nd, 2009 at 8:53 am
there will arrive a 1D mark IV in september ;)
believe it or not^^
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sergokok Reply:
August 22nd, 2009 at 2:46 pm
True… This will APS-h 1D mark IV.
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nobody Reply:
August 22nd, 2009 at 7:25 pm
forget about aps-h ………. FF!
the new id mark 4… there wont be some 7D -.-
canon i’ll kxxx you -.-
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August 22nd, 2009 at 12:23 pm
You never know who knows what, who is guessing, and who is just harassing us, but lets think about a couple of comments above and what they would mean.
– “APS-W”
– “It will set a new standard, but will not be FF”
If you had a new sensor that was as tall as APS-C but wider it might have advantages.
– If it is only wider not taller you may not have miror
crashing issues supporting EF-S lenses
– Most landscape wants wide and does not need FF tall
* EF lenses could use the extra width
– 16:9 good quality makes the video people happy
When I first heard about the idea of a new sensor format I didnt see the point but this might not be that bad.
There are obviously still complications. How would you shoot video with only an EF-S lens? Perhaps there would be a non-binning video mode that only used the center of the sensor?
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regular Reply:
August 22nd, 2009 at 3:12 pm
Video hobbyists (lobbyists?) are making a lot of noise in the forums, but maybe 1 5Dmkii user out of 10000 is really planning to shoot a film.
On youtube, you will find a LOT of test clips and video samples , but actually very few movies (ie with sequences and transitions).
I have nothing against those guys, … but should Canon really expect to make a big business with thoses guys?
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Anonymous Reply:
August 22nd, 2009 at 5:19 pm
I have 4000€ for a body (d3 or d700) + 4000€ for lenses (zoom, because I already have many primes) and all JUST FOR VIDEO
NO Pictures, JUST FOR VIDEO!!!
And I’m not the only one, there is a huge market and nikon, canon know about this niche.
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Anonymous Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 11:00 am
Buy a real video camera and do not annoy real photographers with ridiculous features.
Video and photo are two different worlds and people claiming they want to do serious video with dSLR are just not serious video producer…
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David Reply:
August 24th, 2009 at 5:45 pm
The 5D2 video looks better than camcorder video, and it is a real video camera.
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Ted Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 11:53 am
Jeez, people buy 16:9 camcorders all of the time and probably not 1 in 10,000 of them intend to make a film either. Does that mean that there is no money in that market?
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zach Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 4:36 pm
i currently shoot a 40d for bmx and i would love to have the video feature of the 5d2 becuse some tricks dont lend themselfs to photography and video is the proper medium for them so if had the money to afford a 5d2 i would be makeing a video for strictly enuthist motives but i video none the less(yeah i am only fifteen and its kinda hard to scrape up 2700 dollers in addition to that i do not want to afford a real video camera when my amazeing still camera could take better video the any video camera i could afford.
i know canon does not care what we do with the camera so long as we bought it haha
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David Reply:
August 24th, 2009 at 5:44 pm
5D2 is being used on the Dog Whisperer TV show, probably a lot more shows, you can spot the footage easy compared to the HD camcorder shots that can’t blow the background out. I just shot a video event with the 5D2, have more jobs lined up I plan to use it on.
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August 22nd, 2009 at 2:48 pm
It was interesting to exchange analysis with you all on this thread. I agree with some analysis below on the “cheap FF Pack with good AF” but…I doubt that it will be as fully packed like 5D2 (speaking of video feature)…but Canon already did it from 1Ds3 to 5D2. A lot of photograph are simply not interested in video at all…
Experience usually shows that going from Photo work to director of photography work is a huge issue, and from director of photography to director/sequence composer is simply as hard. Some have the talent, the others not, and a lot are simply seeing their camera as simply a tool for their composition work. That’s why you can experience very strange situations when you are with a photographer friend in a expo, and that he litterally cried of joy on a B&W picture, with a lot of grain, no focus, a vague silouhette of a person with clipped light from behind…well…a missed shot clearly for the mundane world. Real photography art and composition work are outside tech progress, and some are still praising the large format (with wooden boxes) as an unreplaceable medium of artistic expression. In photo school you learn to use the tool as a brush and a sketch for art creation. That’s partially why the great French Photographer Henry Cartier Bresson stopped photography at the end of his life to go beyond and went to pure drawing (with pencil and sketchbook). These photographers, who are for most part of them, working in agencies, don’t spend time to much on a camera and are just focus on key feature, simply because the camera is not theirs, but the company’s. They can switch “Oh today I take the D3X number 28, see you tomorrow”. Camera is just a tool for them and they just focus on “How can I simpy raise the Iso to capture more quickly important shots?” Agency work, which is a really important target for both brand (Nikon and Canon) is not focusing on the advanced features and delicacies the camera could have. Raw feature like viewfinder, AF performance, Iso noise…is all that they consider…Finally a good compact camera could do all the agency work…This kind of photographers don’t care of special feature, they want to keep it simple and effective…That’s exactly why the G10 has so much success in agencies today and exactly why the G11 didn’t obey to the mass market law of “more of something”…but rather obeyed to agencies expectations…low noises capabilities, High Iso, huge dynamic, we don’t care about MP…10 is enough. And finally it’s ok ! This camera will sell like never before in Agencies and serious amateurs (like me) who could be annoyed to bring a truck of lenses during a great hiking in the mountain. Just a sec, have you all seen the Flash sync on this camera ??!? DPreview must be wrong or it’s a HUGE advance : 1/2000th of second?? on a compact??
We are talking about serious amateurs / semi pro / pro second camera. The entry level beginner have all the 1000D TI/ or 500D(which is a camera with huge potential, with L lenses on it !), with all the modes. Serious categories are more than happy with the software suite, which save 200$ at least, from Canon.
Frelance photographer are different. They can work on a various and broad range of subjects and the hardware is theirs. They are truly “samourais” or “Ronin” (Samurai with no master) and the camera has here a different role for them, very similar to the blade of a samourai. They are very much concerned on the state of it and the maintenance, they rely on it, they are interested in taking the most of it, they go into details and features, and most importantly they don’t have many different cameras. They cannot rely on the tech support department of the agency for a camera, they really take care and want to have a “good package”. More than this, this type of photographer (if they produce good pictures, if they feel ok with the camera too) can enlarge their collection of lenses, flashes, etc.
For a part of photographers, the true pro photographers, they simply don’t care on video. It’s the enthusiasts (but not pro), who care of the video feature, or the “measurbators” (c)Ken Rockwell :-). ultimately, the video users can be interested. He can be interested in what the DSLR can bring (wide angle, Hi quality picture, incredible low light capability), but he already master the capture of great sequences to adapt to the restriction of Video on DSLR (hard and sloppy AF, Bad Sound…). Commercially it make sense to make a lower level FF Canon DSLR, stuffed with better AF, Quicker frames (6-8 fps), but lower MP AND no video. with that, canon will rationalize it’s lineup, especially compared to 5D2, but in fact it could as well be different. If the MP count is correct (16-18), considering the bad response to the announcement of D300s, the lack of breakthru features of video capability, and considering that Live view is now a must have…video is just a small step away technically AND it could trump nikonian who waited for D300s for Full HD video (I know a lot, and a lot of disappointed ones). So I don’t see “this” (let’s call “this”) camera be underfeatured this way, the lower MP count will be enough for them to differentiate and the 5D will be positionned as Non sport photography, vidéo, protrait, and landscape only. The “other one” could fill the gap and propose a more balanced camera (like XXD line, but in full frame).
All the talk of new design sensor or revolutionnary sensors is, I think, a little bit too early. This type of sensors is far away from being optimal and you have to make difference between “this design could therothetically be at least the same perf” speaking of the potential performances of the design (but which will require years before blooming in a really interesting fashion), and “this design improves now the noise reduction by 20%…I think Canon will keep the projects and research in store…waiting for a good projet that could really make use of such a new featured sensor. In Brief, not now (I think)
I agree with the need of globally better featured cameras (Weather sealing…)both for APS-C and the rest.
We have some elements, some rumors, some pictures (like the piece of plastic with the new on/off swithc). But Canon has released some very strange choices before, I think we cannot seriously go further than we all went here so far, simply because we don’t know what Canon (and nikon) pay inquiring and analysis companies for, and they could ultimately base their strategy on trumping the other, at the last minute…
All we can do is to become friends with people from Nikonrumors (yeah !) and share insights and analysis. This way we could take into account the rumors from nikon and guess how they could lead to Canon reaction in terms of Product (And reversely for Nikonians!).
good evening everybody!
Reply
Costache Reply:
August 22nd, 2009 at 3:39 pm
Nice writing, Dariel :)
About G11’s flash sync speed of 1/2000s: it is possible. G11 has an electronic shutter, isn’t it ?
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akbarfoto Reply:
August 22nd, 2009 at 8:23 pm
good writing indeed, especially about the samurai and ronin :) . if I recall, the sync speed is possible because the shutter is not a plane but circular (just like the iris of the f/stop). so even when it is half way opening, it still give equal light to the ccd, unlike the plane shutter; it only gives half of the ccd light.
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August 22nd, 2009 at 5:52 pm
Questions for you folks:
(1) Does canon have the 1-series production capacity to update BOTH the 1DIII AND 1DsIII at the same time? Is lack of production capacity why the releases dates of 1D and 1Ds series cameras have been out of sync for Mark I, Mark II, Mark III ???
(2) Does Canon have the xxD capacity to update BOTH the 50D (to 60D) AND release a new 7D (FF or 1.3x) AND support continued production of the 5DII and rebels all at the same time?
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John Swan Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 9:11 am
A question for you – why does your question (1) have two questions in it? Why not just list three questions in total?
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Paul Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 8:44 pm
Well, since we’re in the nitpicking area, he could be dividing his questions into topic (1) and (2), and not questions (1) and (2) per se.
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Loco Reply:
August 24th, 2009 at 5:57 pm
i Like:
a)
b)
(…)
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August 22nd, 2009 at 6:20 pm
canon isn’t going to release another budget FF this time. sorry guys, but this is the time to play it safe, and they’re going to release the 50D successor and a 1D4 possibly. get over it.
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Anonymous Reply:
August 22nd, 2009 at 6:47 pm
You’re right about the budget FF and 50D successor, but there will be something else and it won’t be a 1DMkIV. I hope to find out more this Tuesday, but lips have become very tight.
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jigglypoo Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 6:18 am
i expect that ’something else’ will be a 1000D upgrade. ho hum.
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August 22nd, 2009 at 6:46 pm
I don’t know what people are using video on dslr’s for…. unless you are shooting pro vids for clients or music video clips,all I expect is some vacation home movies….hell I’m sure it’s capable of that!!…albeit one that is good under low light and in HD!!
Reply
J-Man Reply:
August 22nd, 2009 at 7:00 pm
http://www.cinema5d.com
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August 23rd, 2009 at 1:59 am
its funny how when I posted a similiar spec, I was called a clown.
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John Swan Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 9:07 am
That was nothing to do with your posting.
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ossme Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 9:19 am
really?
anyway, we will see whos a clown once the cam is released (if it was ever released that is).
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August 23rd, 2009 at 3:45 am
100% correct information!
will be interesting to see how it performs!
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jigglypoo Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 6:20 am
if you were one of the few people in the know, who could confirm those specs, you’d know how the camera performed, then, wouldn’t you? 50D replacement.
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John Swan Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 9:06 am
True as the day.
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Someone Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 5:45 pm
I do have the spec sheet here, but I didn’t want to confirm untill someone else let the cat out of the bag! camera is 1.6x just to clear up confusion…
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Someone Reply:
August 24th, 2009 at 12:24 am
And no.. I have not held 1. I don’t think it will replace the 50D, I think it will sit nicely between the 50D and 5DmkII for the time being.
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August 23rd, 2009 at 3:58 am
Found this old photo on Flickr:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/yen867/2832760927/sizes/o/
On the top another front than xxD or 5D.
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akbarfoto Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 4:16 am
nah.. that’s old. wheres the mic holes.
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Anonymous Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 11:10 am
i am abit confused about prism/mirror box on that photo, i feel like that prism box is real.
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Anonymous Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 11:11 am
thats a prism of FF camera for sure, well i hope that part of image is real :)
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Anonymous Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 6:00 pm
Come on. This pic is one year old and was shown when people expected the replacement of the 5D … which was the 5D mk II.
Fake !
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August 23rd, 2009 at 2:50 pm
FF
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CanonOutsider Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 4:37 pm
AA, BB, CC
Reply
Anonymous Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 7:40 pm
I prefer DD
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Pornoman Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 7:44 pm
Heck I like XXX
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August 23rd, 2009 at 4:54 pm
At this point all we can do is speculate. I bet the new cam will be aps-c, not FF, but will have the digic V processor, which will offer a host of improvements.
I think the new digic V will be a big deal, even though no one seems to be talking about it.
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August 23rd, 2009 at 6:51 pm
I went to BB store, today, to buy 5DII, but they don’t have it in stock. I had coupon for %12 off and asked for rain check. The manager check a comp and told me they will not have that camera any more.
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August 23rd, 2009 at 6:56 pm
We surrender to Canon, all Nikon VR lenses will be painted white…
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August 23rd, 2009 at 7:22 pm
Ha anyone noticed that on B&H, Adorama, Abes of Maine and several others the 5D MK2 has been back ordered for over a week???
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ABC Reply:
August 23rd, 2009 at 7:25 pm
The 5dmkii has been backordered on B&H for several weeks now…it’s like they don’t ever have it in stock any more.
Now it could be that they have such a waiting list for pre-orders that as soon as they get more shipment they have it sold.
But there’s no doubt there seems to be a shortage of 5dmkii’s.
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August 24th, 2009 at 5:58 am
see this:
http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_1D_MkIV.html
I hope so
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August 24th, 2009 at 6:50 am
7d sounds just stupid
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August 24th, 2009 at 2:49 pm
7d specs are fake if 1d4 specs are reall
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August 25th, 2009 at 5:43 am
Nikon D300s (New) is better than 7D.
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August 25th, 2009 at 10:17 am
waiting for the new Canon EOS 5D Mark III as 7D but more than 45 AF points, New DiGiC V, 100% VF and Dual Slof.
Reply
August 26th, 2009 at 1:59 am
[...] is the original: 7D Specs | Canon Rumors Tagged as: 5dii, aps, august-21st, august-22nd, august-23rd, camera, canon, d300s, d700, david, [...]