Canon vs RED
September 6th, 2009 Posted in Canon Video
Inevitable battle?
According to the following link, Canon is well aware of RED and their upcoming product line.
Could we see a new cinema system soon from Canon?
Read More: http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=34663
thanks Tom
cr
September 6th, 2009 at 11:08 pm
Oh, give me a break. RED is all talk, no product. Bring something to market or shut it. I’ll believe it only when I see it.
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Yes Man Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 12:10 am
Yes, I agree.
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Anonymous Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 6:55 am
Uh-huh. Well, just so that you know, several feature films have already been made on the RedOne, which has been out for over a year, including “Knowing”, “Night at the Museum 2″, “Che”, the highly acclaimed “District 9″, the series “ER” and “Leverage”, and has been used in parts in “Jumper”, “Wanted” and “Angels and Demons”. Not a real product??
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Anonymous Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 7:29 am
not debating, but it was only the series finale of ER that was shot on RED. there were many articles in the industry trades at the time, however the people involved with post wished they NEVER did this due to the massive headaches and workflow disturbances… especially considering how long the show was on air, and how little the workflow changed since the beginning, this is understandable.
as a professional video editor and motion graphics designer, i have to say that the MPEG4 workflow is a little more cumbersome than dealing with something like Panasonic DVCPROHD tapes or P2 footage, or XDCAM and the like. it involves a process of converting files to an “edit-friendly” format for real-time playback and usability.
for home movies and shots of the kids, maybe even the family members wedding, MPEG4 native acquisition is great! the quality is fantastic and it’s easy to use…
for a professional, it really makes you “work” before you’re doing any work – and that’s unfortunate. until real-time MPEG4 editing is available (very processor and memory intensive), this is a workflow issue that is being dealt with by many workarounds.
take a look at this read for more info:
http://digitalfilms.wordpress.com/2009/08/15/canon-eos-5d-mark-ii-in-the-real-world/
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Anonymous Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 3:20 pm
Well of course Red does end up being a little more cumbersome: it is, after all, lossless compressed 4k. The codec is brilliant, but is rather new and therefore lacks support. While it is more of a hassle, there is no debate that the ultimate performance of the RED workflow is superior to other HD cameras, even if one does not take into account the added resolution.
H.264 isn’t only not that well supported either, it is an awful codec for anything other than content delivery (for which it is brilliant). It is literally the opposite of REDcode: extremely high, lossy compression, and, as a result, awful for editing beyond timeline adjustments. Comparing REDcode with H.264 is like comparing an ultra-compressed 2mp jpeg for emailing against a 12mp RAW file from a DSLR. I agree that this is actually perfect for families, etc., but it cripples the footage for use in filmmaking productions.
Many of the issues that currently occur with editing REDcode will disappear once there is proper support from editing programs (the new Final Cut Studio adds some support, so you can perform colour editing, for example, in Color at 4K) and once Red Rocket is released, again with the support from the editing programs.
BTW, the main point of post was to point out that Red isn’t just “vaporware” as so many think it is, and I’m sure you’d agree with me that it has had quite a profound impact on a fairly substantial amount of the filmmaking community.
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Anonymous Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 4:45 pm
yes, I absolutely agree – RED has changed the way professionals do business. unfortunately, the other big boys are playing catch up… and that includes companies like Adobe and Apple that the creative world generally live in
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Provocative Man Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 9:33 pm
H.264 works very well on Apple’s Final Cut Pro. But the fact that most of the video professional world live on Apple systems is probably lost on a Avid user like yourself.
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Yes Provocation Man Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 9:43 pm
Yes, I agree, he is a typical arrogant Avid user. They made the wrong choice and now the stand there and mock others who made a smarter choice. Avid is very overrated. Yes
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Troll Slaying Man Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 9:44 pm
Obviously that’s a troll.
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troll slaying man slaying man Reply:
September 8th, 2009 at 12:53 am
Aren’t we all?
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Anonymous Reply:
September 8th, 2009 at 4:38 pm
No, I do not use Avid, I use Final Cut. In my post, I did point out that it was a hassle to edit with H.264 – and it still is to an extent with FCP as it requires more horsepower to handle – but the main issue I have with it is that it is just a terrible codec for editing, in the sense of colour correction, etc. – far worse than MPEG-2 or any of the HD codecs, and awful against REDcode. I specifically focused on this aspect of the codec, as REDcode is much harder to edit that h.264. h.264 is fine if untouched, but can suffer very little changes. (again, as my original comparison, it is like comparing a highly compressed jpeg against a RAW file).
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John Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 8:56 pm
http://www.red.com/shot_on_red/
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mark Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 9:53 pm
really? if you believe things only after seeing, then what are doing in a rumour site?
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September 6th, 2009 at 11:28 pm
All Talk????? Red changed the whole movie industry with the original Red one! Maybe you should check your facts! Yes they are a bit behind on release, lets not forget where the economy has been for the last year and a half. I guess you don’t know how many movies and television shows use Red!!!
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Yes Man Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 12:11 am
Yes, I agree. .
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Quash Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 2:09 am
Sorry, I have been stupid with my unverified statement. I mean, I feel so insecure those days. Thats because my ex-girlfriend, that b**** left me, you know.
Sorry.
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Yes Yes Man Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 2:45 am
I agree, she is a female dog.
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Drunk Man Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 2:51 am
Get drunk doo! Look for solace in a bottle! *hic*
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No Man Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 2:52 am
NO! Don’t DO IT!
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Jacobin Ve Lardina Saccun Reply:
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:06 pm
Get over it.
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Lindsay Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 3:12 am
The WHOLE industry?
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Anonymous Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 7:32 am
yes, it did change the WHOLE industry. every manufacturer took notice and have changed the way they are making products, the features offered, and how they help their customers. even the Sony and ARRI types took notice. the original announcement was nothing less than earth shattering. it brought that NAB to a standstill and then delivered on its promises.
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Canon Guy Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 8:46 am
My part of the earth is still quite in tact. Maybe we’re just shatter-proof? I don’t believe that it changed the “WHOLE industry.” Did a few suits take notice? Sure. Did they really react in any noticeable way? Doubtful.
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The whole industry Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 9:32 am
Actually, it did change me. I mean, I changed. RED have completely changed the way I think and do. I look at myself differently now. Which is why I cut myself shaving this morning.
But I still don’t think RED have anything to match the killer feature, and we want MOAR.
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regular Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 9:32 am
I think it takes more than a 1080HD sensor and a set of backfocusing lenses to change the WHOLE industry.
Well, maybe, the WHOLE adult video industry, but that’s about it.
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John Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 8:48 pm
Well its more than about 1080P but more about relative price compared to other pro systems. Red is 1/4 or so the price with performance meting or bettering the others…. 50-100k as opposed to 500k up to a million for the others.
And as far as only the Adult world using it, well I will say it again. Know your facts before spouting false and inaccurate info about something you obviously know nothing about!!!.So I guess Peter Jackson is the porn worlds newest director? lol
And I guess Movies like Knowing,Jumper,Angels & Demons,Night at the Museum 2, D-9, The Gamer,The Book of Eli should be rated x( according to you ONLY the adult industry use it ???, so the must be porn movies)And dang we better get a bunch of the tv. shows off the air as well!! E.R,Southland, Sanctuary just to name a couple.
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Regular Reply:
September 8th, 2009 at 5:56 am
I was refering to Canon :)
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John Reply:
September 8th, 2009 at 12:26 pm
whoops!!! my bad, sorry :)
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September 6th, 2009 at 11:44 pm
But what is RED?
Ok, I’ll check the link!
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Yes Man Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 12:12 am
Yes, correct. Direct Print Buttons are the deciding factor.
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mk Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 12:13 am
But you can’t print video, it’s in the 7D manual :(
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Yes Man Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 12:14 am
Yes, I agree. But you CAN print stills of video and stuff. Yes.
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Anonymous Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 2:29 am
Are you willing to jump of the bridge?
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Yes Yes Man Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 2:45 am
Yes, let’s jump.
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Canon Guy Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 8:46 am
1+
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chad Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 7:40 pm
I’ll go jump of the pictbridge
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chad is da man! Reply:
September 8th, 2009 at 12:55 am
LMAO! You are da man!
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Trilic Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 12:38 am
I was thinking the same thing…I’m not too hot into video, but that might change, with the 7D
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September 6th, 2009 at 11:48 pm
Actually they are all talk so far.
This thread refers to the Scarlet, not the Red One.
The Scarlet has had many revisions of it’s specs.
Release dates have come and gone with no product.
Just because they got away with it on the Red One, doesn’t mean they can pull the same stunts again.
I doubt a consumer orientated client base would tolerate the sort of dramas that were (and still are) a part of the Red One.
Canon could do this if they wanted to, however I’m not sure the market is big enough for them to want to do it.
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Yes Man Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 12:11 am
That’s right. I agree.
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Yes Yes Man Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 12:15 am
I agree with you agreeing.
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Canon Guy Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 8:47 am
I’m not sure that I agree with your agreement, but I do agree that you are quite agreeable.
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Yes Man Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 9:30 pm
I agree with you agreeing that his agreement with my agreement was quite agreeable.
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Doubtful Man Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 3:53 am
Well, I dunno… but I have my doubts
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U.S. of A Man! Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 3:55 am
Be proud of your country son!
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Anonymous Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 6:58 am
The fact that they got it with the RedOne, and therefore have the sufficient tech, etc., means that it will be much easier to pull it off with Scarlet. Also note the fact that they have working prototypes…
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Anonymous Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 7:36 am
the consumer would not deal with the workflow issues that people need to deal with on the RED to watch their videos either. that is why it is a PROFESSIONAL product.
Canon on the other hand is offering video as an “added bonus” and recording in MPEG4 – not a bad thing for the consumer, it makes it easy to watch and share the video… but for the PROFESSIONAL, this post-production process is a headache just to get everything working before you start your work.
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Pro video editor Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 9:28 pm
Mpeg4 (H.264 invented by apple) is an awesome HD codec. Really nice compression system. Great for everyone but the top levels of production (I’m talking Hollywood type things).
It’s only a “headache” if you’re using a PC (Adobe Premiere) or perhaps Avid. If you’re like a whole bunch of the video professional community, using Final Cut Pro on a Mac, it’s the perfect format.
So it depends on your definition of “professional”. Just because you’re not working on the newest Hollywood blockbuster or using Avid, doesn’t mean it isn’t “professional”.
Also, unless you have a hollywood type budget the RED cameras are too much for most people (including most professionals).
I suspect a lot of medium budget commercials and films will use the Canon 5DII in the future. The shallow “film like” DOF is a great attraction (and something people have spent a lot of time and money to try to copy on video cameras).
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David Reply:
September 8th, 2009 at 10:43 am
Funny how anonymous portrays Hollywood and feature film making to be the only “professional” video uses…so much for lowly corporate or event videographers making a living at it even though they aren’t professionals…
H.264 is compressed, but the bit rate makes a big difference, and the 5D2 records a good enough bit rate to edit, 50 mbps verses 17 mbps bitrate on the likes of the GH1 and many AVCHD camcorders.
As for Apple, I found FPC on a quadcore still does not edit 1080p 5D2 files with real timeline playback or AVCHD 1080p files without converting them first. I use Grass Valley’s Edius Pro 5 for editing with a HDSPARK board for realtime HDMI previewing on an HDTV while editing, plus Edius doesn’t need to convert files and I can edit any format, size or framerate all on the same timeline, handy for me because I use AVCHD 1080p camcorders for 2nd & third cameras right now. And before anyone starts calling me a snob, though I find Mac fans calling anyone a snob way too funny, my latest editing workstation is a lot less than a Avid or a FCP system: HDSpark HDMI board with Edius Pro 5 is only $775, and I got a Dell XPS Studio Corei7 desktop machine for $799 and added a couple of 2Terabyte HD’s on sale for $179, not bad for a solid realtime 1080p HD editing system that out performs both my FCP machine and the quadcore PC with CS4 Premiere with AJA Kona 2K board in it (a client bought that one for editing 2K files from FotoKem).
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September 7th, 2009 at 12:22 am
KanON defeats all! nikoff, read, bloo, purple, sow knee, owe-limp-us, pen-taxes, and everything else non CanON can go collect CanON’s cans to recycle or something!
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Drunk Man Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 2:50 am
I cen tuype like dat too yaa koows?
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Canon Guy Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 8:48 am
You, sir, need to lay off the paint-thinner. Thank you, and have a nice day.
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September 7th, 2009 at 1:57 am
So Canon are aware of RED and their product line? That’s a major scoop! It shows they read internet hype.
But Canon and RED are playing in different markets: Canon in the high-end amateur/low-end pro area where they can get away with jellycam. RED are aiming at more serious film makers, not wedding photogs who want to add video as a sideline.
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Yes Yes Man Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 2:47 am
Yes I agree, the makers of Ironman 2 and Harry Potter films are obviously amateur/low-end pros.
You also are probably using a nikon.
Well done. Well done indeed. I totally agree with your brilliant statements!
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Me, and only me Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 6:29 am
I’m sorry Yes Yes Man (or may I call you YYM?), I overlooked that this is a reference to cinema systems. Given that RED are developing a videocam/stills cam hybrid, I wrongly assumed that this was somehow a reference to Canon’s own wobbly efforts.
And, no, I shoot with Canons.
Slow work day, is it?
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Deutscher Mann Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 9:09 pm
Sie sind ein Superidiot! Sie befolgen das Mutterland!
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Umm Proof? Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 9:17 pm
The 5DmkII doesn’t have a strong “jelly effects” like you said. You’re talking about the NIKON D90 I think.
The rolling shutter “jelly” effect is only with erratic movement or really rapid panning.
In the end, ever single CMOS video camera, THE RED ONE INCLUDED, exhibits this. Using a CCD chip is the only way to avoid it.
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Anonymous Reply:
September 8th, 2009 at 4:13 am
Film cameras have a rolling shutter too (since there’s an actual physical shutter moving across). The Red One has a rolling shutter speed about the same as film. So you’d have to be doing some pretty insanely fast stuff to have a problem with the Red One. (It’s also worth noting that the insanely fast Phantom HD camera which can shoot something 1000 fps is ALSO a CMOS sensor camera…it just has an insanely fast sensor. I’d say it’s probably the king of capturing super high speed motion, and can do things no CCD camera could even come close to)
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Me, and only me Reply:
September 8th, 2009 at 4:27 am
I didn’t say that the 5DII has *strong* jelly effects. In fact I didn’t mention the 5DII specifically at all.
I simply noted that Canon digicams have jelly effects (which will be more evident with quick panning I suspect). You are correct, this is a feature of CMOS not CCD so yes it will impact RED, although I rather suspect (have no experience) that a RED setup is less likely to be used for rapid panning, and therefore less likely to exhibit the effects. Not through technical superiority, simply through circumstance (or the skill of the director/cinematographer.)
Please, go ahead and split another hair, I realise that I’ve left a lot to pick over here.
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Anonymous Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 7:01 am
Oh. Note that they were used for behind-the-scenes. Evidently the makers of those films didn’t think the 5d mark ii was up to the job.
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Anonymous Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 9:20 pm
Not surprising. Note they didn’t use the Red One too. LOL
Film is still the way to go, much better control.
The dynamic range is much better (even than the 5DmkII.
The 5DmkII is good for small films (low budget) etc. because film is so expensive.
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Anonymous Reply:
September 8th, 2009 at 4:43 pm
Sorry – can you tell me of any significant productions which have used the 5d mark ii? None whatsoever. No would they ever use it. Whereas, many have used the REDone.
I agree, film is the best way to go at the moment, but a)it’s hugely expensive, rather than being a one-off fee, and b)the difference is not that significant between film and the REDone.
The 5d mark ii has poor dynamic range when it comes to video, as nothing is recoverable (due to compression). The Red is much better in this regard. However, a camera like the D3 has been shown to have better dynamic range than negative stills.
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No Man Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 2:48 am
Well I disagree.
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Yes Man Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 2:48 am
Ah my nemesis, No man! You will die!
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No Man Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 2:48 am
No I won’t!
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Yes Man Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 2:49 am
Yes you will!
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Direct Print Man Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 2:49 am
Maybe both can occur.
MOAR DIRECT PRINT BUTTONS!!11
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Maybe Man Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 2:50 am
I will defeat you ALLL!!!!!
Maybe.
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Canon Guy Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 8:50 am
Can I haz a cheeseburgerz?
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meme man Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 9:36 am
ALL YOUR BASES BELONG TO US!!
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anon Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 10:08 am
Watch you’re english. “all your base ARE belong to us”, that is.
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Musouka Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 6:34 pm
1.12.12 25.15.21.18 15 1.18.5 2.5.12.15.14.7 20.15 21.19.
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September 7th, 2009 at 2:53 am
Who ever it is making the jokes. Stop it. This is a serious post about a serious topic on a serious website. Let’s all be more serious! Like me…
SERIOUS MAN!
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Direct Print Man Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 2:54 am
Ah ha! We meet again Serious Man! This time my direct print jokes will defeat you FOREVER!111
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Serious Man Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 2:55 am
Get serious for once why don’t you?!
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Direct Print Man Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 2:55 am
NEVA!
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Canon Guy Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 8:50 am
I’m not sure if i can seriously take this seriously. Seriously, though, I’m seriously serious.
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indecision man Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 9:38 am
I’m not sure how much of this seriousness I can take.
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Deutscher Mann Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 9:08 pm
Ich bin ernst!
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regular Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 9:09 am
lol! Thanks for the entertainment :)
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September 7th, 2009 at 2:56 am
I would rather see them take on Hasselblad
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Direct Print Man Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 3:01 am
What?
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Serious Man Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 3:02 am
Seriously?! You haven’t even heard of Hasselblad?! Seriously, that’s seriously messed up. I’m being serious!
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Direct Print Man Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 3:03 am
Do they have direct print buttons?!
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jaco Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 3:11 am
mano, por qué no agarran la onda y mejor se hacen sho?
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Direct Print Man Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 3:13 am
¿no da, por qué no lleva agarrar la onda y los mejoran hacen sho?
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Hombre Serio Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 3:14 am
¿Seriamente, por qué usted no me toma seriamente?
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Uomo Italiano Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 3:15 am
Che cosa è questo Spagnolo, tutto dovreste parlare italiano come un uomo reale!
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Français Homo Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 3:17 am
Parlez français, comme un bon Français gai !
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Deutscher Solider Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 3:18 am
Französisch?! Wir dringen Sie mögen vorher ein!
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日本皇帝 Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 3:19 am
私達はこの戦いで結合してもいいか?
中国人 Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 3:21 am
我们将打您有剪编号的!
U.S. of A Man! Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 3:22 am
Thus Ends another day at the united nations of rumors!
Ah Beng Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 3:28 am
Nin lang kong simi lan sai?
Doubtful Man Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 3:33 am
في الاتحاد قوة
Человек России Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 3:56 am
Россия нанесет поражение вам всему!
Dujko Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 2:31 pm
nerazumin nista brale!
crazy man Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 7:23 pm
dfhjakldfhjalhdjfkaldfhakldfhjlfdhdajfhdas
Canon Guy Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 8:52 am
Yo tengo un gato en mis pantelones. Me ayuda!
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David Hasselblad Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 9:45 am
I thought he was great in Knight Rider and Baywatch. He’s still popular in Germany.
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David Hasselblad Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 9:45 am
For singing though.
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Deutscher Mann Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 9:06 pm
Wir alle Liebe er hier in Deutschland. Wie ein Mann liebt eine Frau!
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September 7th, 2009 at 3:30 am
Canon should learn that trying to stuff too many cakes in their mouth isn’t really good. Just concentrate on the cakes you already have… Nom Nom.
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Nardinamouk Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 3:43 am
Right said
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Gusto Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 3:56 am
Totally agreed.
They should simply focus on improving their sensors for IMAGING alone.
I am aware that some changes (to improve dynamic range, color sensitivity etc) may not be conducive for HD movie throughput, 14 bit etc… but which serious photographer really cares about video etc. 14 bit images don’t seem to exhibit any serious advantage over 12 bit ones.
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Человек России Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 3:59 am
In Soviet Russia, sensors sense you!
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Cannoite Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 4:03 am
I’m sure the fact that Canon ONLY makes DSLR cameras and has NEVER made a video camera EVER means that they should only make DSLR cameras and concentrate on what YOU want!
Sarcasm isn’t lost on you is it?! I mean if so, there is this place on the internet you might want to check out:
http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ProductCatIndexAct&fcategoryid=172
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Gusto Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 4:21 am
OK, I should have made myself clearer.
I am aware Canon makes great videocam as well as digital cameras.
But they should not try to merge the two, especially if compromises have to be made.
I maintain that digital cameras should be made with the sole purpose of taking the BEST images. Similarly, videocams should be made for taking the best video. Everything else is just a bonus.
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Anonymous Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 7:08 am
I think the purpose of the above thread is to show that Canon will update their video line with tech from their still cameras (but improved) to compete with Red. They will never produce satisfactory competition just from video capable DSLRs, for a number of reasons – ergonomics, technical reasons (high bitrates involved with lossless compression), viewfinder…
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David Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 12:42 pm
Well you are greatly mistaken. No reason we can’t have both in one system. All Canon has to do is make some video EF lenses and some new accesories like adding XLR inputs to the grips, hotshoe clip-on rotatable LCD’s & mics, and it’s the best video stystem and the best photo system.
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Dude Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 4:06 am
LOL I was about to say: “No, but serious VIDEOGRAPHERS do care about video.”
A new CINEMA SYSTEM is what this “rumor” is about. Not a new DSLR. Stop being so narrow minded Gusto.
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Gusto Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 4:25 am
OK, if that’s what this rumor if all about, it’s fine by me.
I am only pointing out this issue ‘cos the 5D2 may be able to take impressive 1080p video, but its dynamic range for still photgraph is still narrower than a cheap D5000 canera.
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Nick Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 11:36 am
THe half stop dynamic range over the 5d2 is moot when you take into account that its low light iso score is 3X as high (dxomark) and it has significantly greater color depth.
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Nick Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 11:44 am
(correction low light is 2X as high)
Just to be clear, this means that although the DR is lower, “pulled” and “pushed” files (usually required to take full advantage of a high contrast raw file) will look better even if the file has sightly less headroom.
The color depth in particular will help keep you from blowing color channels in correction.
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anon Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 12:33 pm
Interesting.
Just checked : D5000’s dynamic range is indeed better, up to ISO400.
Idem for tonal range.
Color depths are very similar up to ISO400 (superior if at pixel level).
Indeed, the 5DmkII is better at low-light… well:(
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frankchn Reply:
September 8th, 2009 at 7:28 am
Some people here don’t realize that Canon (or Nikon or Sony or anyone else) doesn’t design sensors and cameras for “serious photographers” – especially if said photographers don’t end up buying their stuff regularly. They design stuff for whoever is going to buy their kit.
I bet including video then manual controls in the 5D Mark II boosted its sales quite significantly so expect to see more video improvements (4K, RAW output, etc) in the future.
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Человек России Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 3:57 am
In Soviet Russia, Cake eats yOu!
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Anonymous Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 3:08 pm
+++
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Video Man Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 4:07 am
Certainly the Canon video camera system could do with some upgrading. The pro stuff is fine, but starting to lag behind Sony and Panasonic.
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September 7th, 2009 at 11:56 am
Jim Jannard just chimed in with this:
“Ha. Two years ago we were a scam and now ‘Canon is not afraid of us.’ Sounds like we have come a long way in a short period of time.
I’m very happy that RED has in any small way helped Canon to ’see the light’. We welcome anything they bring to the market that is good for the industry. Now… get rid of H.264.
We have a stable of unannounced features. Glad we started to clam up recently.
Jim”
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Little boy BLUE Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 3:47 pm
You could float a balloon with JJ’s hot air.
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September 7th, 2009 at 12:16 pm
I have to say
you non-Red’s are vellyfunny..vellyfunny
best post so far on Canonrumors
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September 7th, 2009 at 12:41 pm
Is it just me, or is Red also in it’s own separate category when compared to Canon, Sony, and Panasonic?
All of Red’s equipment is super-duty, durable stuff that’s probably much more expensive.
But as far as video quality, I’ve never used Red equipment, but out of Sony, Canon, and Panasonic…I’d have to say Sony wins in overall video quality. Canon, do something…and quick.
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Musouka Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 1:40 pm
Dunno about the pro lines, but when it comes to manual controls in camcorders, Canon are still at the top. They used to be in a league of their own but then got lazy and the competition closed in. Overall, I see the Panasonic HDC-HS300/TM300 as the best overall HD camcorder at the moment.
The JVC GY-HM100 is quite interesting, as well.
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September 7th, 2009 at 12:43 pm
The 1Ds4 will be the RED killer.
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Musouka Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 1:41 pm
Totally different segments of the market.
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Me, and only me Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 3:44 pm
Have you seen the 1Ds4 specs?
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Musouka Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 6:31 pm
No, but I have seen RED’s
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David Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 10:31 pm
Yeah, the 4K RED One is an 11 MP sensor. Canon’s is nearly twice that size on the 5D2, they just need to get it to output the 8K video it is capable of and so long RED.
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Me, and only me Reply:
September 8th, 2009 at 1:04 am
You can’t really compare them or their market segments if you’ve only seen one set of specs, can you? You have no idea where Canon are taking the 1Ds4. They could be doing something totally innovative and radical.
Oh, hang on, this is Canon we’re talking about. Evolution rather than revolution.
As you were.
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Anonymous Reply:
September 8th, 2009 at 4:18 am
it will be able to directly print 4k vidz :-)
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David Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 7:12 pm
Not for long.
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September 7th, 2009 at 2:55 pm
I’m suprised that it has taken so long. After the 5D MK II was released, lots of video professionals and indie film makers asked Canon to update 5D MK II features, and wanted to buy them in quantity.
Surely, this was not lost on Canon. They are big in the video industry and know how to make video cameras.
A low cost cinema camera under $10,000 really would shake up the industry. A full blown Red outfit is much more than that, and you are just getting started.
Canon lenses are great, but not in the same league as cinema lenses, so until there are better Canon lenses, the industry will have to use adapters for the real cinema lenses like they do with the 5D MK II.
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Tom @ Timescapes Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 4:45 pm
Canon lenses are in the same league with top cine lenses, once the Canon lenses are rehoused mechanically for cine use. I shot EF 50mm 1.2 vs Panavision Primos, side by side, and the EF Canon lenses can hold their own, trust me.
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David Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 7:19 pm
Yeah, you don’t know what you’re talking about. The 5D2 sensor is much bigger than the RED sensor, it’s only limited by the encoder doing h.264 1080p, so the EF lenses, especially the L line, are more than capable if they can handle 21 MP sensors already.
Plus Canon does make a broadcast line of lenses most people are unaware of, all they need to do is make some video friendly zooms, maybe with a power zoom toggle on them.
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Zac Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 8:09 pm
Is that why the 50 f/1.0L is used extensively in hollywood productions with various adapters? and thats pretty much the softest L lens ever made….
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David Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 10:25 pm
soft and dreamy, great for movies
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September 7th, 2009 at 3:11 pm
WTF this RED is?
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Me, and only me Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 3:46 pm
It’s Nikon’s answer to the direct print button.
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Cyxapb Reply:
September 8th, 2009 at 1:27 am
At last in this Canon is step ahead. Thank you!
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Anonymous Reply:
September 8th, 2009 at 4:22 am
stop it, no funny
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Anonymous Reply:
September 8th, 2009 at 12:28 pm
keep goin’, yes funny
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September 7th, 2009 at 3:50 pm
You guys are a gas! Great for late night perusing. ,,,
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September 7th, 2009 at 6:30 pm
[...] The Canon fanboys are going off here, and the RED-heads are going off here. Go forth and flame. (Jannard responds here) Tweet ThisTipcrunchgear419:http://www.crunchgear.com/2009/09/07/canon-trash-talking-red/SHARETHIS.addEntry({ title: "Canon trash-talking RED? Oh no they di’int", url: "http://www.crunchgear.com/2009/09/07/canon-trash-talking-red/" }); Meebo.exec("makeAllSharable", { rootElement: "post-110973", minWidth: 10, minHeight: 10, url: "http://www.crunchgear.com/2009/09/07/canon-trash-talking-red/" }); Previous Post [...]
September 7th, 2009 at 8:14 pm
So does anyone know if the 5D Mk II will get 24p or not? If it does then this can help blow RED away.
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September 7th, 2009 at 8:45 pm
Jannard has stopped posting Scarlet specs and release dates, but continues to bash Canon.
He started quite a few threads on his forum bashing the image quality of the 5D MK II and the fact that the 7D has better video features than the 5D MK II and that Canon should have an upgrade path that he will offer when he gets his new cameras out.
Previously he has been quite professional in his absence of bashing other manufacturers, but it seems that Canon has him worried?
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Joe Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 8:56 pm
Scarlet is doomed. Video already here for APS-C sensors at a price point that RED just can’t compete in. Canon makes way too many sensors for their DSLRs for RED to be able to compete on volume.
Jannard should just concede the Scarlet market and stick to high-end digital cinema. They thought there were going to just being competing with the 1/4, 1/3 and 1/2″ cameras. That’s why they started with 2/3″ as their lowest Scarlet model. But ironically, Jannard miscalculated and didn’t realize the still camera guys would leapfrog him with APS-C sensors.
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David Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 10:24 pm
Canon is his worst nightmare. Once Canon figues out how to get 4K video off the FF sensor on cameras costing a lot less than a RED system it’s buh bye time. Wait and see, the 1Ds4 will be targeted to the movie making business in a big way.
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J-Man Reply:
September 8th, 2009 at 4:30 am
If Canon can pass 4k via HDMI with the 1Ds4,
that will be impressive,
I don’t know if 5D2, 7D will be able to pass uncompressed 1080P via HDMI, it would be welcome on 1D4, 1Ds4, 5D3.
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David Reply:
September 8th, 2009 at 11:04 am
I have doubts the 5D2 or 7D will ever pass uncompressed HDMI, but it is a path Canon could follow on the 1Ds4 to go after the film making market. I doubt they’d bother on the 5D3, as the 4K video market is a very narrow high end segment and most videographers are fine with good full HD, we’re many years away from consumers or TV/broadcast industry upgrading from 1080p so unless you are shooting for the big screen, 4K is way overkill.
I don’t expect the 1D4 will offer more than improved HD targeted features as it will be for the sports/PJ target market, but the 1Ds4 could be Canon’s first serious target market for the film industry, and that’s a crowd used to spending a lot more on 4K cameras, even by RED standards an under $10k 1Ds4 would be the bargain of the movie industry and a huge profit line for Canon, not to mention the marketing fodder Canon could make for themselves.
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September 7th, 2009 at 8:52 pm
Tom@Timescapes: first, you do great work! Love that Pink Floyd song on your winter reel!
Second, what are your thoughts on the new 7D? Do you think it will be even more popular with videographers than the 5Dii?
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Tom @ Timescapes Reply:
September 7th, 2009 at 10:22 pm
Well, it’s cheaper, and still has a huge sensor, with interchangeable lenses, so it will be very popular indeed. I just saw Philip Bloom’s night 7D test and it looks pretty great. I worry about moiré pattern and aliasing, though. Many of my 5D2 shots have suffered or been ruined by aliasing and artifacts that are almost impossible to clean up in post. Yes, I think it will be more popular for video than the 5D2.
What I really want and need right now is a small, compact HD camera that can shoot overcranked footage at least 60fps, but preferably more. I think people are waaay underestimating the impact Scarlet is going to have. The 120fps – 150fps alone is worth the price of admission, not to mention RAW recording, form factor, etc.
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September 7th, 2009 at 9:23 pm
um, they use RED cameras here in NYC. it exists..
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September 8th, 2009 at 12:17 am
i really hope they dont make this stuff available cheap to consumers. to be able to hi res RAW files from video. it would be the death of photography. this is too much power for you really bad photographers out there. wasting it on pictures of flowers with bokeh. you know who you are.
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J-Man Reply:
September 8th, 2009 at 4:40 am
Power to the People!!!!!
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Anonymous Reply:
September 8th, 2009 at 7:24 am
Dude….I hope you’re just being funny….because IF this thing EVER gets released, it’s going to be so friggin EXPENSIVE nobody but well off filmmakers or rich wannabees are going to be able to afford or finance it.
And if you think that ensures nothing but beautiful works of art will be produced by it, then you’ve got a screw loose. :-)
In fact…..I’m sure a large % of “consumers” would be able shoot more incredible photos with it than MANY of these rich so called “professionals”.
I’ll take some nice pictures of flowers with bokeh over pretentious crap any day. :-)
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pete Reply:
September 8th, 2009 at 8:04 am
who care about RED, my m9 comes out tomorrow whooo!.
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Anonymous Reply:
September 8th, 2009 at 12:27 pm
Dude, I hope you can tell obvious jokes, if not get of teh interwebs.
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September 8th, 2009 at 12:08 pm
I really hope canon can really up the ante on the video quality. its really good right now but not the best. i think the the pro digital video cameras Lucasfilm invented is the best out there. therse only about 10 in the world and can only be rented. instead of buying one panavision lens for my company. we were able to purchase 5 canon 5d mkII and 20 L series lenses.
(blame the cinematographers, for all the sold out canon lenses)
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September 8th, 2009 at 2:42 pm
Can someone explain to me exactly what RED is? I gather from clicking on the link they are makers of digital film equipment? I looked around on their site, and didn’t see anything directly. What sort of products do they make? Apparently they fit canon bodieS?
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Anonymous Reply:
September 8th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
Yes, Red makes digital cinema equipment. So far they have 1 camera available for purchase called, “One”. They are working on other cameras; however, no release dates are available.
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Jim's lil' helper Reply:
September 9th, 2009 at 6:21 am
Our next one will be “Two”.
Our marketing consultant needed bed rest after coming up with that one.
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David Reply:
September 8th, 2009 at 3:34 pm
RED is one third of the RGB color spectrum, RED GREEN AND BLUE.
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September 8th, 2009 at 3:32 pm
Canon has been blind and slow with their video division lately… when they introduced the XL-1 a few years ago it was such a smash that they kept on selling them for years whithout any upgrades… it was revolutionary for its time… now i don’t understand why is that they didn’t come out with a new revolutionary video camera that is more related to a 35mm cinema camera and far from a traditional video cam… I mean… they could be using full frame sensors in a video/cinema oriented type of body without tape and favoring SDI and hard drives for recording/storage.
They could implement 300 fps @ 2K resolution.. they could implement the already impressive L line of lenses for this cameras… at a price that no cinema lens line can compete with… The tecnology is already there!!! come on!!! they could be offering a lot of what RED is offering and selling them like hotcakes… but I don’t understand what’s going on with Canon… they should quit on playing defense and start innovating again… the 7D is a good sign of a change in attitude but… it’s a little bit shy… they need to be more aggressive!! Canon needs to wake up!
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David Reply:
September 8th, 2009 at 3:48 pm
They actually did upgrade the XL1 several times (XL1s, XL2, XLH1, etc), now it’s the XLH1s and XLH1A, but its still the old HDV tape format, not even full HD much less solid state. We’ll see if they have something new coming. Hopefully it will be the 1Ds4 and be targeted to the film industry.
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Michael G Reply:
September 8th, 2009 at 6:24 pm
Well an update to their XL line with an APS-C sensor will really be something to get excited about.
But to the current XL H1S’s defense (which I own), it’s image is really fantastic. It’s image is also sharper than what comes out from the 5D Mark 2, despite it’s not being “full HD” (remember, a Sony F900 is not “full HD” either, yet clearly resolves more than any of these HD DSLRs still).
I still find shooting with the H1s more appealing over shooting with the 5D Mark 2, let alone much more practical.
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David Reply:
September 8th, 2009 at 6:34 pm
HDV is MPEG2 at a bitrate of 19 mbps, the 5D2’s h.264 bitrate is 50 mbps, plus you have to capture the tape to a file format before you edit, time consuming. I’m adding a ZeroG Rig from Varizoom to my 5D2 so it will hold more like a camcorder and mount accessories. Where the XL’s have it beat is XLR audio on camera. I use a Marantz PMD 660 for XLR audio.
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Michael G Reply:
September 8th, 2009 at 11:05 pm
Yes, capturing tape is indeed time consuming.
What’s cool about the XL H1S is since it has HD-SDI, you can capture the uncompressed out of the camera (which I do alot with my AJA Io HD). The quality is stunning, and is “full HD” (since the HD-SDI output is full raster, there is horizontal pixel shift to conform the 1440 to 1920 on that output).
It certainly grades better and holds up better than the 5D2 footage. Although the 5D2 just has that nice shallow depth of field. Wish it’s HDMi output was uncompressed HD as well …
Can’t wait to see what the next Canon high-end Pro Video camera will be like!
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David Reply:
September 9th, 2009 at 6:58 pm
Well for editing purposes outputting via HD-SDI uncompressed capture is going to be better than editing native h264 copmressed files, but you can do the same trick and convert the origial h264 files to uncompressed HD before editing. I suspect because the 5D2 records at twice the bit rate over HDV, and there’s no pixel shift to bump it to full HD, that converting it to uncompressed will produce a better file than converted HDV.
I have a Kona IO board too. I stopped using it though as I’m not using tape anymore.
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Michael G Reply:
September 10th, 2009 at 8:17 pm
Well, actually I was referring to a live capture, not capturing from something that was already recorded to tape (and therefore going through the HDV compression).
Convergent Designs has something called the Nanoflash which mounts on the camera and records the uncompressed HD-SDI signal and encodes it to 220mb MPEG2 which is very nice!
I hope this supposed 29th announcement is this APS-C technology in an XL body. WOuld be very nice :)
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David Reply:
September 11th, 2009 at 12:26 am
Well live capture HD-SDI not HDV is the ultimate way to go. Still I prefer the lens looks from the 5D2, if only it could output full HDMI. For now I can live with 50 mbps h264. A new pro video camera would be awesome, though I’m hoping its FF sensor with EF mount instead of XL.
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Michael G Reply:
September 11th, 2009 at 12:56 am
I’m hoping more for the APS-C sized sensor than FF. It’ll be an easy translation for my AC’s and more versatile for movie productions (using cine primes and such).
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September 8th, 2009 at 3:40 pm
I’ll believe the competition between Canon and Red when Canon comes out with a non-compressed RAW video codec.
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tom @ timescapes Reply:
September 8th, 2009 at 6:12 pm
Why non compressed? REDRAW is compressed a lot.
Uncompressed RAW video would be unmanageable.
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David Reply:
September 8th, 2009 at 6:49 pm
That’s putting it mildly. I tried an uncompressed 2K file on a quad core with AJA Kona board and it could barely move along the timeline much less play the timeline while editing.
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happy5Dshooter Reply:
September 9th, 2009 at 5:02 am
I hope you tried with at least 8GB of ram and a dual channel disk array capable of a sustained rate of at least 460 kb/sec… that’s what I use with the AJA IO for 1080 10 bit uncompressed and 2K… even 4K red files work great!
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David Reply:
September 9th, 2009 at 7:03 pm
No, I was going to upgrade the drives and ram but I ended up with 1080p file based recording. If RED ever makes the Scarlet, or Canon makes a 4K camera, I’ll upgrade the Kona workstation to do 4K realtime. For 1080p h264 & AVCHD files I’m digging the HDSpark and Eduis Pro 5, blazing fast workflow, no converting, and works with any framerate or format (up to 1080p) on the same timeline.
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Jim's lil' helper Reply:
September 9th, 2009 at 6:19 am
If it’s RED RAW I find a soothing poultice helps. But don’t use cream on burns, it’s better on apple pie.
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September 8th, 2009 at 8:31 pm
so quite after 7D’s announcement XD
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September 13th, 2009 at 11:31 am
who is red?
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September 13th, 2009 at 8:27 pm
[...] The Canon fanboys are going off here, and the RED-heads are going off here. Go forth and flame. (Jannard responds here) [...]
November 3rd, 2009 at 9:14 pm
From http://www.red.com/cameras/technology/
It’s interesting that RED’s 4K sensor is smaller than Canon’s APS-C or Nikon’s DX.
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