November 28, 2014, 04:59:01 AM

Author Topic: Canon EF 200 f/2L IS & EF 800 f/5.6L IS [CR2]  (Read 11487 times)

dolina

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Re: Canon EF 200 f/2L IS & EF 800 f/5.6L IS [CR2]
« Reply #45 on: March 25, 2013, 09:23:55 PM »
I believe the rumor that a new Canon 200mm IS & 800mm IS will be released, as soon as 2020.

These are the various reasons why it will happen then

1) Nikon's 200 VR2 & 800 VR are still at a disadvantage when it comes to lens weight to Canon. VR are now the same number of stops to Canon's IS. Only advantage of the Nikons are the the optical coating and the dedicated TC of the 800mm VR.

2) Both Canon lens were announced in 2007 and shipped 2008. These make both lens 5-6 years old. All the Series 1 super teles with IS were made obsolete by 2011 when the Series 2 super teles with IS were announced. That's a 12 year product cycle.

3) 200/1.8, the predecessor of the 200/2 IS, was announced in 1988 and discontinued in 2003. That's a good 15 years.

4. Here is a list of L lenses that need to be updated due to their lens age. All these lenses probably sell more volume in a week than either white primes in its whole production run.

1993 - EF 400mm f/5.6L USM
1993 - EF 1200mm f/5.6L USM
1995 - EF 70-200mm f/2.8L USM
1996 - EF200mm f/2.8L II USM
1996 - EF180mm f/3.5L Macro USM
1996 - EF 135mm f/2L USM
1997 - EF300mm f/4L IS USM
1998 - EF100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS USM
1998 - EF 35mm f/1.4L USM
1999 - EF 70-200mm f/4L USM
2003 - EF17-40mm f/4L USM
2004 - EF28-300mm f/3.5-5.6L IS USM

5. Here is a list of non-L EF lenses that need to be updated due to their lens age. All these lenses probably sell more volume in one day than either white primes in its whole production run.

1987 EF 135mm f/2.8 with Softfocus
1987 EF 50mm f/2.5 Compact Macro
1990 EF 50mm f/1.8 II
1991 TS-E45mm f/2.8
1991 TS-E90mm f/2.8
1991 EF 100mm f/2 USM
1992 EF 20mm f/2.8 USM
1992 EF 85mm f/1.8 USM
1993 EF 50mm f/1.4 USM
1995 EF 28 f/1.8 USM

6. As mentioned on 4 & 5 both lenses are not volume sellers. So whether they update this tomorrow or next decade they it wouldnt sell all that much.

I'd only upgrade if they can reduce the weight a further 25% or more and increase the f-number to say by 1/2 or a full stop.

Now, I could be wrong so dont bother reading this anymore. :D
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Re: Canon EF 200 f/2L IS & EF 800 f/5.6L IS [CR2]
« Reply #45 on: March 25, 2013, 09:23:55 PM »

jrista

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Re: Canon EF 200 f/2L IS & EF 800 f/5.6L IS [CR2]
« Reply #46 on: March 27, 2013, 09:05:41 PM »
I believe the rumor that a new Canon 200mm IS & 800mm IS will be released, as soon as 2020.

These are the various reasons why it will happen then

1) Nikon's 200 VR2 & 800 VR are still at a disadvantage when it comes to lens weight to Canon. VR are now the same number of stops to Canon's IS. Only advantage of the Nikons are the the optical coating and the dedicated TC of the 800mm VR.

Canon also uses nanocoatings, like Nikon's Nano Crystal Coat. It is called SWC by Canon, Subwavelength Coating. All of Canon's new lenses use SWC on multiple elements. Nikon has no advantage there. Flare control on newer Canon lenses is second to none, and one of the biggest reasons I love Canon glass.

2) Both Canon lens were announced in 2007 and shipped 2008. These make both lens 5-6 years old. All the Series 1 super teles with IS were made obsolete by 2011 when the Series 2 super teles with IS were announced. That's a 12 year product cycle.

Canon's EF 800 f/5.6 L IS was the first lens to use Canon's 4-stop IS system. That is the same 4-stop IS system that is used in the new Mark II generation of Canon teles and superteles. It is also the same 4-stop IS system used in the EF 200mm f/2 L IS. The IS system of both the 800/5.6 and 200/2 is most certainly not out of date. It is actually the current state of the art, and the system that paved the way for the Mark II 300, 400, 500, and 600 lenses.

I'd only upgrade if they can reduce the weight a further 25% or more and increase the f-number to say by 1/2 or a full stop.

Weight is probably only area where there can really be significant gains, although the current 800mm lens already made a fair bit of headway on that front by being almost two pounds lighter than the old 600mm f/4 L lens. Canon might be able to improve IQ as well. The 600mm f/4 L II is slightly better than the 800mm with a 1.4x TC, so there is probably something Canon can do to put the 800mm back on top. Is it worth it, though? The margin is very slim...and as a prime supertelephoto, the current 800mm is still a phenomenal lens. I've never used the 200/2, but from what I've seen, it too is a phenomenal lens capable of producing some unbelievably good images with the most mind-blowing boke you've ever seen.

When it comes to aperture, if the difference is f/1.8 vs. f/2, it is trivial, and doesn't really matter. With the insanely good high ISO performance of Canon cameras these days, a third of a stop bump in ISO is trivial.

As for the 800mm, Canon doesn't usually use intermediate f-stops for maximum aperture on their prime lenses. It would either be f/5.6 or f/4. An f/4 800mm lens would require a 200mm entrance pupil. That is GARGANTUAN! The single largest entrance pupil in Canon's entire lens lineup is the 600mm f/4, with a 150mm entrance pupil. An 800mm f/4 would require a 33% increase in front element size. The diameter of the 600mm II is 168mm, so the front element is probably exactly 150mm in size. Can you imagine a lens with a 200mm front element?!? The barrel diameter would probably be 220mm! Not only would such a lens be HUGE, it would be heavy, even with Fluorite elements...much heavier than the current 800mm f/5.6 L (which is actually still fairly light...lighter than the previous EF 600mm f/4 L by a fair margin, again thanks to Fluorite elements, as the current 800 is still a modern design).

It would certainly be an amazing lens, an EF 800mm f/4 L IS. But it would be a significant feat of engineering to make it practical for anything outside of relatively permanent, stationary use on one hell of a beasty tripod. That is nothing to say of the cost. The EF 600mm f/4 L IS II costs $13,000. The current EF 800mm f/5.6 L IS costs $13,500, and it has a smaller entrance pupil than the 600mm. I can only figure an EF 800mm f/4 L IS would cost...$25,000...maybe $35,000?

I don't see either of these lenses getting an increase in maximum aperture. Its either not logical, or not practical.

dolina

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Re: Canon EF 200 f/2L IS & EF 800 f/5.6L IS [CR2]
« Reply #47 on: March 28, 2013, 12:23:18 AM »
SWC was introduced with the EF24mm f/1.4L II USM in the 2008 announcement. A year after 200 & 800.

200 & 800 do not have IS mode 3 & Power Focus amongst other things. New paint job is also missing. It also lacks a Kengsington lock.

200 has 5-stops of IS
- http://www.canon.com.au/For-You/Camera-Lenses/EF200mm-f2L-IS-USM-Lens
- http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/tech/report/200805/200805.html
- http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/product/lenses/200mm_f2l.do
- http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/technical/image_stabilization_lenses.do

The current 400/2.8 is 16% lighter than the 800 and does not have the separate optical front element that serves as protector. It is now integrated onto the super hard front element. This is one component that can be removed in the 200 & 800 to lessen weight.

1/3rd or 1/2 stop is a difference between stopping the action and having slight blurring. ISO can only do so much even on the flagship 1-Series. Shutter speed dictates whether the subject is frozen or has subject motion blur. ISO determines exposure amongst other things.

Canon lenses with less fractional stops.

http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/lens/ef/data/wide/ef_28_18_usm.html
http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/lens/ef/data/standard/ef_50_f1.2l_usm.html
http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/lens/ef/data/standard/ef_50_18.html
http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/lens/ef/data/standard/ef_50_18ii.html
http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/lens/ef/data/standard/2006_ef_85_f1.2lII_usm.html
http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/lens/ef/data/standard/ef_85_18_usm.html
http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/lens/ef/data/telephoto/ef_200_18l_usm.html
http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/lens/ef/data/super_telephoto/ef_500_45l_usm.html
http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/lens/ef/data/macro/ef_50_25.html
http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/lens/ef/data/macro/ef_180_35l_usm.html
http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/lens/ef/data/ts-e/ts_e24_35l.html
http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/lens/ef/data/ts-e/ts_e24_f35lii.html

“Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hmm? Hmm." - Yoda

Advances in materials science  will allow for lighter 800 at a faster f-number than what was possible today. :) It'll be out in 2020, more than enough times for the optical boffins to figure things out.

$35,000 would be cheap, by 2020. :)

I can see a 4.4, 4.5, 4.8, 5.0 or 5.2 f-number in the future.

By 2020 I may not be doing photography anymore as serious as today but still...

Canon also uses nanocoatings, like Nikon's Nano Crystal Coat. It is called SWC by Canon, Subwavelength Coating. All of Canon's new lenses use SWC on multiple elements. Nikon has no advantage there. Flare control on newer Canon lenses is second to none, and one of the biggest reasons I love Canon glass.

Canon's EF 800 f/5.6 L IS was the first lens to use Canon's 4-stop IS system. That is the same 4-stop IS system that is used in the new Mark II generation of Canon teles and superteles. It is also the same 4-stop IS system used in the EF 200mm f/2 L IS. The IS system of both the 800/5.6 and 200/2 is most certainly not out of date. It is actually the current state of the art, and the system that paved the way for the Mark II 300, 400, 500, and 600 lenses.

Weight is probably only area where there can really be significant gains, although the current 800mm lens already made a fair bit of headway on that front by being almost two pounds lighter than the old 600mm f/4 L lens. Canon might be able to improve IQ as well. The 600mm f/4 L II is slightly better than the 800mm with a 1.4x TC, so there is probably something Canon can do to put the 800mm back on top. Is it worth it, though? The margin is very slim...and as a prime supertelephoto, the current 800mm is still a phenomenal lens. I've never used the 200/2, but from what I've seen, it too is a phenomenal lens capable of producing some unbelievably good images with the most mind-blowing boke you've ever seen.

When it comes to aperture, if the difference is f/1.8 vs. f/2, it is trivial, and doesn't really matter. With the insanely good high ISO performance of Canon cameras these days, a third of a stop bump in ISO is trivial.

As for the 800mm, Canon doesn't usually use intermediate f-stops for maximum aperture on their prime lenses. It would either be f/5.6 or f/4. An f/4 800mm lens would require a 200mm entrance pupil. That is GARGANTUAN! The single largest entrance pupil in Canon's entire lens lineup is the 600mm f/4, with a 150mm entrance pupil. An 800mm f/4 would require a 33% increase in front element size. The diameter of the 600mm II is 168mm, so the front element is probably exactly 150mm in size. Can you imagine a lens with a 200mm front element?!? The barrel diameter would probably be 220mm! Not only would such a lens be HUGE, it would be heavy, even with Fluorite elements...much heavier than the current 800mm f/5.6 L (which is actually still fairly light...lighter than the previous EF 600mm f/4 L by a fair margin, again thanks to Fluorite elements, as the current 800 is still a modern design).

It would certainly be an amazing lens, an EF 800mm f/4 L IS. But it would be a significant feat of engineering to make it practical for anything outside of relatively permanent, stationary use on one hell of a beasty tripod. That is nothing to say of the cost. The EF 600mm f/4 L IS II costs $13,000. The current EF 800mm f/5.6 L IS costs $13,500, and it has a smaller entrance pupil than the 600mm. I can only figure an EF 800mm f/4 L IS would cost...$25,000...maybe $35,000?

I don't see either of these lenses getting an increase in maximum aperture. Its either not logical, or not practical.
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jrista

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Re: Canon EF 200 f/2L IS & EF 800 f/5.6L IS [CR2]
« Reply #48 on: March 28, 2013, 12:48:45 PM »
SWC was introduced with the EF24mm f/1.4L II USM in the 2008 announcement. A year after 200 & 800.

Ah, it does look like SWC was introduced Sept. 2008. I thought it was introduced in 2007. Touche.

200 & 800 do not have IS mode 3 & Power Focus amongst other things. New paint job is also missing. It also lacks a Kengsington lock.

Paint job? Really? You want a new version just for a paint job?  ???

No, they do not have mode 3 IS. Again, not sure we really need these lenses to be replaced just for that. I do believe the 800mm has power focus...it certainly has all the controls and the ring for it...from a switches, buttons, knobs, and rings standpoint, the 800mm lens looks the same as the 600 II, 500 II, 400 II and 300 II. I cannot tell if the 200 has it or not...I wouldn't be surprised if it does not...I'm not sure there is enough room to support it. As for the Kensington lock, I believe all of Canon's current telephoto lenses have that. At least, according to photos on TDP (the-digital-picture.com), it appears they do.

200 has 5-stops of IS
- http://www.canon.com.au/For-You/Camera-Lenses/EF200mm-f2L-IS-USM-Lens
- http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/tech/report/200805/200805.html
- http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/product/lenses/200mm_f2l.do
- http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/education/technical/image_stabilization_lenses.do

Actually, according to everything I've read here in the states, Canon calls it a 4-stop IS. I believe the official rating is for 4 stops of improved hand-holdability (rated in slower shutter speed). Most review sites, including TDP, label it as "state of the art 4-stop IS" as well:

http://www.usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/products/cameras/ef_lens_lineup/ef_200mm_f_2l_is_usm
http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/Canon-EF-200mm-f-2-L-IS-USM-Lens-Review.aspx

That said, most review sites seem to get as much as or even more than 5 stops in reality, assuming one has incredibly steady hands. Officially, at least here in the US, Canon's current image stabilization system is rated at 4 stops. I know some people who have unsteady hands due to medical reasons who cannot get more than 4 stops improved hand-holdability. It may simply be differences in economy or culture...in the US, I could see some selfish idiot sap suing (and, thanks to the evil hordes of trial lawyers here, getting a class action and winning) over "miss-rated hand-holdability gains from Canon's '5-stop IS system'".  >:(

Either way, I believe the IS system in the 800/5.6 and 200/2 is the exact same system in all the other new white telephoto primes...whether it is a 5-stop or 4-stop benefit.

The current 400/2.8 is 16% lighter than the 800 and does not have the separate optical front element that serves as protector. It is now integrated onto the super hard front element. This is one component that can be removed in the 200 & 800 to lessen weight.

I know the front elements have an hydrophobic and anti-oil coating to prevent water drops and fingerprints from sticking. I had not heard the front element was super hard. There does not seem to be any official information from Canon regarding that (at least, not on the US site). Everything I've heard from people who actually own these lenses is that they were just as fragile as any other lens' front element, and many lament the loss of the protective front glass.

1/3rd or 1/2 stop is a difference between stopping the action and having slight blurring. ISO can only do so much even on the flagship 1-Series. Shutter speed dictates whether the subject is frozen or has subject motion blur. ISO determines exposure amongst other things.

Shutter speed is adjusted in accordance to BOTH or EITHER aperture AND ISO! This is BASIC exposure theory!  :o If you need a faster shutter, you can either open up, or boost ISO. The simple fact of the matter is, if you need a higher shutter speed, increasing ISO is the only really side-effect-free way to do it for small changes like one or two thirds stops. Opening up the aperture has a key side effect: it changes your depth of field and has a key impact on sharpness and IQ. You could open up a third, a half, even two thirds of a stop, but if you NEED something like f/8 for an appropriate DOF or for maximum sharpness, your going to crank up ISO anyway. Redesigning a lens so you can get f/4.5 instead of f/5.6, just so you have a reason to redesign a lens, is impractical. If you need a 1/3rd second faster shutter, the safest way to achieve that is by boost ISO by 1/3rd of a stop. The difference would be imperceptible with something like the 1D X or 5D III at any "normal" ISO settings (800, 1600, 3200, 6400). With something like the 1D X, you could probably push ISO to 12800 and still not notice much noise.

Canon lenses with less fractional stops.

http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/lens/ef/data/wide/ef_28_18_usm.html
http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/lens/ef/data/standard/ef_50_f1.2l_usm.html
http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/lens/ef/data/standard/ef_50_18.html
http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/lens/ef/data/standard/ef_50_18ii.html
http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/lens/ef/data/standard/2006_ef_85_f1.2lII_usm.html
http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/lens/ef/data/standard/ef_85_18_usm.html
http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/lens/ef/data/telephoto/ef_200_18l_usm.html
http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/lens/ef/data/super_telephoto/ef_500_45l_usm.html
http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/lens/ef/data/macro/ef_50_25.html
http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/lens/ef/data/macro/ef_180_35l_usm.html
http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/lens/ef/data/ts-e/ts_e24_35l.html
http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/lens/ef/data/ts-e/ts_e24_f35lii.html

I can see a 4.4, 4.5, 4.8, 5.0 or 5.2 f-number in the future.

I was talking about the high end white telephoto prime lenses. Canon has a lot more lenses with fractional stops in the zoom lens arena as well. I was only considering the 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, and 800mm tele and supertelephoto lenses the discussion pertained to, though. I said "prime lenses", thought that would be understood in context.

“Size matters not. Look at me. Judge me by my size, do you? Hmm? Hmm." - Yoda

Advances in materials science  will allow for lighter 800 at a faster f-number than what was possible today. :) It'll be out in 2020, more than enough times for the optical boffins to figure things out.

Again, the EF 800mm f/5.6 L IS paved the way, from a materials standpoint, for what we have now in the entire telephoto lens lineup. It was the first lens to use two fluorite elements to replace several of the heavier and less effective UD elements. It was also the first lens to use a titanium and magnesium body to further reduce weight. Outside of IS Mode 3, the overall design of the lens barell, the general layout and all of the key features, were all introduced on the this lens. The advancements in materials science and lens ergonomics & functionality were made FOR this lens in the first place. They are now just being applied to the rest of Canon's white telephoto prime lineup. Oh...with a whiter paint job (oh, yeah! Love that white paint! Serious materials science advancements there!! :P), and a late-activated IS mode.

As for material advancements to make an 800 f/4 viable...well, they may have already been made. I don't see why one couldn't use fluorite elements for EVERY element (although the design of such a lens would have to be pretty different). That might reduce weight a bit more. Thing about fluorite is it is much more fragile than optical glass. I'm not sure an all-fluorite lens would be nearly as rugged as any one of Canon's current lenses. I could imagine many lens repairs with broken fluorite elements thanks to a bump or a drop, which would be considerably more expensive to repair.

I think more than materials science would be making the lens practical from an ergonomics and balance standpoint. How do you balance a lens that needs a 200mm front element? I guess the use of diffractive optics could play a role. To date, while considerably shorter in length which would certainly help from a balance standpoint, DO lenses have inferior IQ to a standard optical design. Assuming Canon does use to particle dispersion to achieve diffraction rather than a diffraction grating, IQ will improve...but the lens is still intentionally introducing diffraction, which is going to impact IQ. It may be viable, though...an EF 800mm f/4 IS DO lens with similar weight and decent balance...for photographers who are more interested in hand-holding it, which is going to degrade IQ anyway, than for photographers who demand the best IQ possible.

$35,000 would be cheap, by 2020. :)

Sure, and by then, an 800/4 lens would cost $80,000. :P

By 2020 I may not be doing photography anymore as serious as today but still...

Hmm...odd. That is only seven years away. I couldn't imagine NOT doing photography at that point in time. Hell, I couldn't imagine not doing photography in 2040. I'd be in my 60's, able to retire soon. Hell, I figure I'll probably do more photography between 2040 and 2060 than any other time in my life...as I'll finally be free to do so whenever I want!

dolina

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Re: Canon EF 200 f/2L IS & EF 800 f/5.6L IS [CR2]
« Reply #49 on: March 29, 2013, 01:00:09 AM »
200mm & 800mm do not have Power Focus. I have both and the feature is not present. I use 300/400/500/600 Series II Super Teles and they have this feature. In fact the 400's in my drybox with the 200/300/800.

Printed user manual states 5-stops of IS.

You are taking about exposure. I am more interesting in freezing a football player in full run vs having a slightly blurred football player in full run. You obviously do not shoot action photography where a fast aperture is ideal and often required for shutter speeds of 1/1000 or faster.

High-end white telephoto prime lenses with fractional f-number stops.

http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/lens/ef/data/telephoto/ef_200_18l_usm.html
http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/lens/ef/data/super_telephoto/ef_500_45l_usm.html

If you can't afford a $80,000 lens then you're not the market for it. :P

Change of interest and priorities can change your hobbies. :)

By 2020 I expect to hit 400-500 Philippine birds and not require the latest 800mm or longer lens by then.
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jrista

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Re: Canon EF 200 f/2L IS & EF 800 f/5.6L IS [CR2]
« Reply #50 on: March 29, 2013, 05:17:50 AM »
200mm & 800mm do not have Power Focus. I have both and the feature is not present. I use 300/400/500/600 Series II Super Teles and they have this feature. In fact the 400's in my drybox with the 200/300/800.

You and I may be thinking of other features. When you say "Power Focus", I am thinking of the focus preset feature. Set a certain focus, save it, then have the ability to return to that focus with a twitch of the focus preset ring. The lens will return to your saved focal plane automatically. I believe this setting can be set with fast or slow focus return, allowing for nice, smooth focal transitions when recording video.

The 800mm f/5.6 L IS DOES have that feature. I know for a fact the Mark II 300mm, 500mm, and 600mm lenses have that, too, as I've used all of them as well. The only one I have not used is the new 400mm II, however based on photos of these lenses, it appears to have all the same controls as well. According to the US manual for the EF 200mm f/2 L IS lens, it also has the focus preset feature. See page 8 in the following manual:

http://gdlp01.c-wss.com/gds/0/0300003440/01/ef200f2lisusm-en.pdf

If this "focus preset" feature is not the same feature as "Power Focus", then I am not sure what you are talking about.

Printed user manual states 5-stops of IS.

I think there are differences between UK and US markets. On the US web site for Canon, it clearly states 4-stop:

Quote
This ultra-fast telephoto, a new member of Canon legendary L-series lenses, has totally new optics to provide better image quality. It uses fluorite and UD lens elements for excellent chromatic aberration correction and consists of 17 elements in 12 groups. The built-in Optical Image Stabilizer gives it up to 4 stops of stabilization correction. The inner USM and optimized AF algorithms result in fast and quiet autofocusing, and the circular aperture can even produce beautiful out-of-focus images. This ultra-high-performance lens also improves its durability - better dust- and water-proofing. The EF 200mm f/2L IS USM is outstanding for many available-light applications, including indoor sports, theater work, fashion, and candids at events.

The exact same lens on the UK site is listed as 5-stop:

Quote
Five-Stop Image Stabilizer

Canon’s five-stop compensation Image Stabilizer technology allows the use of shutter speeds up to five times slower with no perceptible increase in image blur. Automatic panning detection automatically turns off the Image Stabilizer in either the horizontal or vertical direction when following moving subjects. Tripod detection automatically switches off IS when the camera is supported.

Either way, I don't believe Canon has DIFFERENT IS systems for both markets. It is the same IS system, regardless of whether it is marketed as 5-stop in the UK or 4-stop in the US. It's all just marketing. It is also very likely that the chances of getting up to five stops of hand-holdability at 200mm on a system designed for four stops at 800mm is just a happy coincidence. At 200mm your angle of view is much wider, so camera shake is magnified by a much lesser degree. As I've mentioned, most reviewers seem to get around 5 stops or more of hand-holdability anyway with ALL of Canon's lenses that use the 4-stop IS system. It's all just marketing...but that isn't my point.

My point is, Canon's current IS system was originally designed for the EF 800mm f/5.6 L IS lens. The technology was innovated with that lens. It is now simply being propagated to the rest of Canon's line of modern white telephoto and supertelephoto prime lenses as part of their current refresh. There haven't been any significant advancements in image stabilization systems in the 3-4 years since it was first introduced. It was over a decade since Canon first introduced their 2-stop IS system before they first introduced the 4-stop IS system.

You are taking about exposure. I am more interesting in freezing a football player in full run vs having a slightly blurred football player in full run. You obviously do not shoot action photography where a fast aperture is ideal and often required for shutter speeds of 1/1000 or faster.

Your now claiming you are talking about exposure in terms of quantity of light on the sensor. I know what your talking about, and I am saying it does not matter. Not when we are talking about a third or a half or even two thirds of a stop. It would matter if we were talking about differences in exposure of over a stop. If we were debating the merits of exposure value (as determined solely by shutter and aperture, i.e. quantity of light at the sensor), the difference between an f/2.8 and an f/5.6 lens is very significant. But we aren't talking about that.

What you are actually talking about, and the point I was always discussing, is the ability to achieve a faster shutter speed. The argument was that only an f/4.5 lens would allow you to achieve an additional two thirds stops faster shutter speed. I'm saying that is wrong. ISO is one of TWO factors that affect shutter speed (which is what we are really talking about here, not exposure value.) I shoot birds, which most is most definitely action, and most definitely requires high shutter speeds. I'd argue that I need higher shutter speeds to freeze the constant micro-motion of a bird than is necessary to freeze a running baseball player or leaping basketball player. Even at 1/1600th, I often capture motion blur of small passerines...even just turning their head, they can move half a centimeter or more in a tiny fraction of a second.

When I need a high shutter speed, I either open up the aperture, OR I increase ISO. BOTH allow the use of a faster shutter. In the context of the current discussion, your statement is that you would only buy a new 800mm lens if its max aperture was bumped up by a third or half a stop, so you could get faster shutter speeds. If THAT is your argument for a new lens, then you don't understand the purpose of high ISO, or why Canon put more effort into achieving cleaner high ISO settings in the 5D III and 1D X instead of improving DR at the lowest ISO settings. Increasing the ISO setting by a third or half a stop is TRIVIAL...you won't notice any additional noise, especially with one of Canon's newer DSLRs. If you are at 1/1000s at ISO 1600, and you need 1/1250s or 1/1600s, you don't absolutely require a lens with an f/4.5 aperture. You can jack up ISO to 2000 or 2500, and achieve the necessary shutter speed. Your EV will be different...lesser by a one or two thirds of a stop...but again...trivial difference, it doesn't matter.

If you were arguing for an 800mm f/2.8 lens...that is a significant difference. Bumping ISO up by two stops will probably have a visible impact on noise, and your EV would change by a significant amount. But we aren't talking about that. We are talking about changing the max aperture of an 800mm lens from f/5.6 to...f/5, f/4.8, maybe f/4.5? Not worth it. Not worth the cost, when you can get that extra few thirds stop shutter speed with a trivial increase in ISO (which, for all intents and purposes, is free...or maybe requiring the sale of a current camera and the purchase of a 5D III or 1D X.)


High-end white telephoto prime lenses with fractional f-number stops.

http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/lens/ef/data/telephoto/ef_200_18l_usm.html
http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/lens/ef/data/super_telephoto/ef_500_45l_usm.html

You keep bringing up decades-old lens designs. I mean, 20 years or older. I don't see how those are relevant to a discussion of MODERN prime telephoto lenses...or even the last generation...? I mean, you might as well drudge up some old FD lens designs while your at it...I'm sure we can figure out a way to blend them into the conversation somehow...and you could probably find some f/6.3 max aperture ones...

If you can't afford a $80,000 lens then you're not the market for it. :P

Erm, its not an $80,000 lens...its a $13,500 lens. And, as it stands, I AM in the market for it. :P Actually, I'm in the market for the EF 600mm f/4 L II and a 2x TC, which is just as good if not better than the 800/5.6. Which is also a $13,000 lens. You get what you pay for. I WANT the EF 600mm f/4 L IS II. It is pretty much the pinnacle of lens design right now, in my opinion. Superb IQ wide open, very light weight, optimally balanced for excellent hand-held usability, incredible image stabilization (which seems capable of at least five stops in my personal experience with this lens and the and 500mm f/4 L II, and over five stops in my personal experience with the EF 300mm f/2.8 L IS II).

I'm honestly not sure of the practicality of an 800mm f/4 L IS...the thing would be a beast, would be very heavy, would be difficult to balance with such a huge front element, etc. etc. I'd be curious to see how an 800mm f/4 DO lens performed...I believe such a lens might be hand-holdable and decently balanced. I'm not sure a DO lens can perform as well as a standard L series lens...but, maybe 15 to 20 years from now, we might all get a chance to try one out.

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Re: Canon EF 200 f/2L IS & EF 800 f/5.6L IS [CR2]
« Reply #50 on: March 29, 2013, 05:17:50 AM »