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Author Topic: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!  (Read 40170 times)

Hillsilly

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #105 on: March 21, 2013, 11:12:59 PM »
Assuming it doesn't cost anything to add AFMA, I can't see why it can't be added to an "advanced features" tab on the menu with adequate warnings.  I find it a bit presumptious to say only the poorly educated would buy a rebel camera and that extra features aren't suited.  Given the numbers of cameras sold, if only 5% were to skilled users, they would still number more than the total 1DX crowd.  And there are plenty of soccer mums taking great photos.

Personally, I think the 100D will be a huge hit.  It is a great concept and will do well amongst new camera owners.  Experienced users that want something small and light and don't want to deal with the negatives of the mirrorless systems will also snap them up. 
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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #105 on: March 21, 2013, 11:12:59 PM »

Zlatko

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #106 on: March 21, 2013, 11:21:35 PM »
So you know a lot of Rebel users constantly sending their gear to Canon for adjustments?  I don't.  But maybe I'll ask the other parents at the soccer game or at the school play.

If Canon share this attitude towards users of their entry level SLRs, that would certainly explain their policy of removing "confusing" features that "parents at the soccer game" don't understand.

You completely misunderstood my point, which was that Rebel users are certainly not constantly sending their gear to Canon for autofocus micro-adjustments.  You think I'm saying something bad about them when I'm not.  I'm a parent at the soccer game too and I respect their situation.  They want good photos, and getting good photos of soccer (or basketball or many other sports) is not easy.  The Rebel is the camera they bought because they knew that a point & shoot wouldn't do the job as well. The Rebel does that job much better, whether it's a soccer game, a show at school, a birthday party, etc.  The point is:  it's very well-suited to those tasks, without being too big or too heavy (parents have enough stuff to carry) or being too expensive ... and without having AFMA!

You used the word "confusing" in quotes, but that's not the word I used.  If you could appreciate the perspective of many parents, you would recognize that too many unfamiliar features on a camera menu is a minus, not a plus.  And AFMA is definitely an unfamiliar feature to the vast majority of people who don't read photography gear forums.  Advanced features sell cameras to advanced hobbyists and pros, not to many camera buyers looking for a very small DSLR.  For many buyers, feature bloat is a distinct disadvantage of modern cameras.  Have you noticed that even the typical point & shoot has menus cluttered with many settings that most people never use?  This is not a selling point.

The thrust of the critics in this thread can be summarized as:  The new Rebel doesn't meet my personal needs!  I need AFMA.  The only reason Canon omitted the feature that I want is because they want to make a (presumed) higher profit on an AMFA-featured body.  And as we all know, this devious strategy of making a profit is wrong.  ???
« Last Edit: March 21, 2013, 11:24:40 PM by Zlatko »

Hobby Shooter

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #107 on: March 21, 2013, 11:24:06 PM »
The more money Canon milks from its entry-level product line, the more money it has to invest in its pro and semi-pro gear. Sounds good to me ;D

yeah well it only has to show results some day....

I would say the 1Dx and the 5D3 are adequate results.

Aside from dominating the DSLR market, yes.
But that's only because we don't know what we're buying.

Don't know what we're buying? PLEASE say that the D4 is better than the 1DX, PLEASE!
Why would I?

I think I forgot the sarcasm mark on that comment.

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #108 on: March 21, 2013, 11:27:17 PM »

AFMA makes the 5D3 and 1DX work as you should expect.  It's a great feature.  But the Rebel line of cameras, including this new SL1, work as you should expect without AFMA.  Different users, different expectations.

Wait so now you are saying that the 5D3/1DX have worse AF systems and lack the magic system in the Rebel line tht gets away without needing AFMA??

Quote
I'm puzzled by some posters' extreme negativity about a manufacturer's "strategy" to make a profit, or to offer a diverse product line that meets different customers' needs and budgets.  It is as if all of those factories and highly skilled employees should somehow spend all of their time serving photographers without any profit motive.  Hmmmm.   ???

I'm puzzled that there is not one single thing you won't defend. Canon could literally release a boxed rock for $999 and you'd defend the decision I'd bet.

It's nice to know that you will go so far as to even defend trying to make people go to a higher tier to get a camera that won't act broken.

Nobody is saying it needs the 5D3 AF or 10fps! Just: 1. give it MFA so it works to spec 2. give it SOMETHING the t4i didn't have, maybe WIFI stuff?


LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #109 on: March 21, 2013, 11:28:55 PM »
The correctness of your analysis depends on at least these two things:
1.  You know that Canon's exact costs for implementing AFMA in a completely new camera body are $-0-.
2.  You have read the minds of unknown people in "marketing" and you know they were motivated to "cripple" the 5D3.
Really, why buy Canon if you think they are so badly motivated?

It does depend upon the correctness of those two things and luckily for me (or any of the many others posting similar) they are both correct.

I mean care to share a single reason why they don't let you chose better than 1/250th for max setting for min shutter speed for autoiso? There is zero technical reason.

Why do you so want Rebel users to have to struggle with AF that keeps missing the mark BEYOND what the designed system tolerances? Just becuase you use better than a Rebel it doesn't matter for them? Maybe some of those moms and pops you meet on the sidelines are confused altering technique in bad ways to make up for bodies that are back or front focusing by 4'?

And for the record, someone managed to quote someone from Canon saying that they took MFA out of the 60D (it had been in the 50D) because it would then make the 70D look better LOL that's nice. Still believe in the pure motivation of Canon marketing these days?

« Last Edit: March 21, 2013, 11:38:28 PM by LetTheRightLensIn »

Zlatko

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #110 on: March 21, 2013, 11:37:19 PM »
Assuming it doesn't cost anything to add AFMA, I can't see why it can't be added to an "advanced features" tab on the menu with adequate warnings.  I find it a bit presumptious to say only the poorly educated would buy a rebel camera and that extra features aren't suited.  Given the numbers of cameras sold, if only 5% were to skilled users, they would still number more than the total 1DX crowd.  And there are plenty of soccer mums taking great photos.

Personally, I think the 100D will be a huge hit.  It is a great concept and will do well amongst new camera owners.  Experienced users that want something small and light and don't want to deal with the negatives of the mirrorless systems will also snap them up.

1. Of course it can be added to an advanced features tab, with adequate warnings.  But this all happens for free?  No labor is spent on testing the AFMA on a new camera, designing and programming that new tab, drafting those "adequate warnings", or adding that page to the manual, etc.  The buildings, the training, the benefits, taxes, insurance, etc., that go into supporting the skilled people that will spend their time on that -- all of this costs ... nothing?  This all just happens ... for free ... because someone wills it?

2. Who said anything about "poorly educated".  Sorry, that is nonsense and has nothing to do with this conversation.

3. Yes, there are plenty of soccer moms taking great photos.  Could it be any clearer that they are doing so without AFMA?

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #111 on: March 21, 2013, 11:41:38 PM »
1. Of course it can be added to an advanced features tab, with adequate warnings.  But this all happens for free?  No labor is spent on testing the AFMA on a new camera, designing and programming that new tab, drafting those "adequate warnings", or adding that page to the manual, etc.  The buildings, the training, the benefits, taxes, insurance, etc., that go into supporting the skilled people that will spend their time on that -- all of this costs ... nothing?  This all just happens ... for free ... because someone wills it?

Give Rebel users a little credit. There are million other settings that could mess things up and yet they are trusted with them no?

Why do you think it needs new code for MFA just because it is a different body?



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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #111 on: March 21, 2013, 11:41:38 PM »

Zlatko

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #112 on: March 21, 2013, 11:53:42 PM »

AFMA makes the 5D3 and 1DX work as you should expect.  It's a great feature.  But the Rebel line of cameras, including this new SL1, work as you should expect without AFMA.  Different users, different expectations.

Wait so now you are saying that the 5D3/1DX have worse AF systems and lack the magic system in the Rebel line tht gets away without needing AFMA??

Quote
I'm puzzled by some posters' extreme negativity about a manufacturer's "strategy" to make a profit, or to offer a diverse product line that meets different customers' needs and budgets.  It is as if all of those factories and highly skilled employees should somehow spend all of their time serving photographers without any profit motive.  Hmmmm.   ???

I'm puzzled that there is not one single thing you won't defend. Canon could literally release a boxed rock for $999 and you'd defend the decision I'd bet.

It's nice to know that you will go so far as to even defend trying to make people go to a higher tier to get a camera that won't act broken.

Nobody is saying it needs the 5D3 AF or 10fps! Just: 1. give it MFA so it works to spec 2. give it SOMETHING the t4i didn't have, maybe WIFI stuff?

The answer to your first point:  you missed where I said "Different users, different expectations." 

Your second point is just absurd.  I'm defending the SL1 because I think it's fantastic for what is.  Have you seen how small it is?  Other than the EOS M (which lacked a viewfinder and decent autofocus) this is the smallest EOS camera ever.  I love having this option for a much smaller DSLR that uses any lens in the EF line. 

Your phrasing about "a camera that won't act broken" just reflects your personal need for AFMA, even in a $649 camera.  Cameras without AFMA don't "act broken" and it is odd to say so.  These cameras do work to their specs, just not to your specs. 
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 12:10:42 AM by Zlatko »

Zlatko

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #113 on: March 22, 2013, 12:07:09 AM »
1. Of course it can be added to an advanced features tab, with adequate warnings.  But this all happens for free?  No labor is spent on testing the AFMA on a new camera, designing and programming that new tab, drafting those "adequate warnings", or adding that page to the manual, etc.  The buildings, the training, the benefits, taxes, insurance, etc., that go into supporting the skilled people that will spend their time on that -- all of this costs ... nothing?  This all just happens ... for free ... because someone wills it?

Give Rebel users a little credit. There are million other settings that could mess things up and yet they are trusted with them no?

Why do you think it needs new code for MFA just because it is a different body?

You're missing the point about Rebel users.  It has nothing to do with "mess things up" or being "trusted".  Nothing.

New code or old code, it doesn't just get dropped into a new camera without any human effort.  No testing even?  The 5D2 and 5D3 both have AFMA, but they are not exactly the same. Obviously there was an added cost to developing it for the 5D3.

But none of us knows any facts about their costs.  So your point really is, why don't they just give away advanced features that cost them very little (or nothing) even if those additions potentially make a camera less attractive to its target market?

Marsu42

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #114 on: March 22, 2013, 04:30:08 AM »
New code or old code, it doesn't just get dropped into a new camera without any human effort.  No testing even?  The 5D2 and 5D3 both have AFMA, but they are not exactly the same. Obviously there was an added cost to developing it for the 5D3.

The frustrating thing about missing afma (esp. from the 60d) that this really is a zero-cost feature - the fw base of the canon cameras is basically the same so I'd say it's 99% copy/paste to transfer single afma from the 50d/5d2 to any other Rebel. I wouldn't be surprised if it's already in their fw source, but just disabled.

Admittedly they added dual afma for 6d/5d3/1dx, but even that is extremely simple to implement: Save values according to lens id, then just add or subtract this value before focusing. There's really not much need for testing involved here.

Sith Zombie

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #115 on: March 22, 2013, 06:19:29 AM »



I'm puzzled that there is not one single thing you won't defend. Canon could literally release a boxed rock for $999 and you'd defend the decision I'd bet.


Hey! don't bring the Eos rock in to this! I have one and it's the best rock ever made, good for hitting Nikon owners with.  :)

elflord

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #116 on: March 22, 2013, 07:34:30 AM »
You completely misunderstood my point, which was that Rebel users are certainly not constantly sending their gear to Canon for autofocus micro-adjustments.  You think I'm saying something bad about them when I'm not.  I'm a parent at the soccer game too and I respect their situation.  They want good photos, and getting good photos of soccer (or basketball or many other sports) is not easy.  The Rebel is the camera they bought because they knew that a point & shoot wouldn't do the job as well. The Rebel does that job much better, whether it's a soccer game, a show at school, a birthday party, etc.

The first thing a photographer-parent does (as a parent) is likely to be "take baby photos" which again they often do with an inexpensive fast prime lens. They might not be up to the task of sending lenses back to Canon but they might be up to the task of reading a manual and adjusting lenses.

Quote
You used the word "confusing" in quotes, but that's not the word I used.  If you could appreciate the perspective of many parents, you would recognize that too many unfamiliar features on a camera menu is a minus, not a plus. 

I don't buy this line of argument. Features that are commonly used can be made available with buttons and dials (without any menu browsing so they aren't buried in a decision tree). The less often used a feature is, the further down the choice heirarchy it can go (without cluttering the top level).

Rebel cameras already support a number of advanced features that these ignorant savages you speak of have little understanding of or use for, (one such example is a matrix interface for adjusting white balance -- oddly enough they don't have a simple color temperature).

Quote
The thrust of the critics in this thread can be summarized as:  The new Rebel doesn't meet my personal needs! 

Actually, my argument is that the Rebel is simply not a very good choice for hobbyists on a budget because the manufacturer treats buyers of its low end products with contempt. Buyers at this price point are better served by other products (either used Canon from different product lines or other manufacturers)

Canon-F1

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #117 on: March 22, 2013, 07:35:11 AM »
AFMA makes the 5D3 and 1DX work as you should expect.  It's a great feature.  But the Rebel line of cameras, including this new SL1, work as you should expect without AFMA.

ah, now your telling us the rebel line has smaller tolerances then the top cameras from canon.
your inside information into canon is stunning!  ;D

of course there are no people on a budget who decided to buy a cheap body and good fast glas.  ::)

now, i have a lot of fast glass and would love to have AFMA on my 550D too.
and i know some other people with a 50mm f1.2 and a rebel.


Quote
Different users, different expectations

you are obviously wrong. just search the internet....
« Last Edit: March 22, 2013, 07:40:06 AM by Canon-F1 »
6D, 5D MK2, 7D, 550D... a lot of Glass.

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #117 on: March 22, 2013, 07:35:11 AM »

Malte_P

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #118 on: March 22, 2013, 07:54:53 AM »
im a student.

i bought a 550D, 70-200mm F4, 90mm tamron macro, 50mm f1.4, 85mm f1.8 and will buy a 135mm f2 soon.

all i can tell you is that i would love to have AFMA in my 550D.

i have send my 85mm f1.8 to canon for adjustment.
my 50mm f1.4 is not perfect either.
but adjustment takes a week, a week without my camera.
 

Zlatko

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #119 on: March 22, 2013, 08:46:26 AM »
You completely misunderstood my point, which was that Rebel users are certainly not constantly sending their gear to Canon for autofocus micro-adjustments.  You think I'm saying something bad about them when I'm not.  I'm a parent at the soccer game too and I respect their situation.  They want good photos, and getting good photos of soccer (or basketball or many other sports) is not easy.  The Rebel is the camera they bought because they knew that a point & shoot wouldn't do the job as well. The Rebel does that job much better, whether it's a soccer game, a show at school, a birthday party, etc.

The first thing a photographer-parent does (as a parent) is likely to be "take baby photos" which again they often do with an inexpensive fast prime lens. They might not be up to the task of sending lenses back to Canon but they might be up to the task of reading a manual and adjusting lenses.

Quote
You used the word "confusing" in quotes, but that's not the word I used.  If you could appreciate the perspective of many parents, you would recognize that too many unfamiliar features on a camera menu is a minus, not a plus. 

I don't buy this line of argument. Features that are commonly used can be made available with buttons and dials (without any menu browsing so they aren't buried in a decision tree). The less often used a feature is, the further down the choice heirarchy it can go (without cluttering the top level).

Rebel cameras already support a number of advanced features that these ignorant savages you speak of have little understanding of or use for, (one such example is a matrix interface for adjusting white balance -- oddly enough they don't have a simple color temperature).

Quote
The thrust of the critics in this thread can be summarized as:  The new Rebel doesn't meet my personal needs! 

Actually, my argument is that the Rebel is simply not a very good choice for hobbyists on a budget because the manufacturer treats buyers of its low end products with contempt. Buyers at this price point are better served by other products (either used Canon from different product lines or other manufacturers)

Don't put words in my mouth.  YOU are the one talking about "ignorant savages".  If you're going to use words like that, we can't have a discussion.  You seem to have never encountered a person who wished for a simpler, smaller camera.  Many people who buy low end DSLRS cameras love pictures but are not into nit-picking over technical adjustments, doing AFMA or reading about it on gear forums.  They buy zooms, not primes, because zooms are more useful to them.  That's not saying anything bad about them, despite attempts here to spin that to the contrary.  They are an important part of the market and a manufacturer is very smart to serve their needs. 

And your claim about treating buyers of low end products "with contempt" is imaginative, but not based on any fact.  It presumes a fantastic mind-reading ability.  You imagine this contempt for the buyer because your premise is that cheaper products should have the same advanced features as more expensive products, which is not a valid premise in the business world.  That's a prescription for business failure.  The SL1 looks to be a great product and a brilliant design in terms of size, weight, looks and functionality.  It's a fantastic solution to the age-old problem of cameras being too big and bulky.

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Re: Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!
« Reply #119 on: March 22, 2013, 08:46:26 AM »