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Author Topic: A Big Megapixel Discussion  (Read 39435 times)

art_d

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Re: A Big Megapixel Discussion
« Reply #120 on: June 17, 2013, 09:14:30 PM »
I am really hoping they opt for the 5D series body. I think that would make more sense because the 1D series cameras are built for people who shoot high volume work. High megapixel shooters tend to do low more low volume work.

Plus, for all the 5DII users who didn't upgrade to a 5DIII because of a lack of megapixel or IQ improvements, a higher megapixel 5Dx would finally give them a reason to buy a new Canon camera.

:)

...not always. I shoot high volume at times - and I love my 1 series body. I despise the 5-series because of how small the body is - it hurts to shoot for hours on end with it!
I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with? Your point and mine are the same as far as I can tell. The 1 series bodies are built for high volume work. High volume cameras tend to be speced with lower megapixels and higher framerates.

My point is that a high megapixel sensor is not really going to be benficial to high volume shooters in most cases (and some might even consider it a detriment because the larger file sizes slow down a high volume workflow.) So why put a high megapixel sensor into a 1 series body that is built for high volume work?

Hmmm, I use my 1D for high volume, but my 1Ds for low volume, high-res work. The 1 series isn't about speed always - it's about reliability, familiarity, and guaranteed output. I may only shoot a total of 200 frames for a wedding, 20 frames for a product shoot, and 1 frame for reproduction work. That's not very high volume, but does require the *resolution*. I can also share all my accessories that between 1D / 1Ds lines. 10fps with tubes on? Done that shooting macro. 1 shot with a 400 on, done that too.

But wait, I've shot a dance session that was over 2000 frames with the 1Ds. That's pretty high volume and high resolution.

I'm thinking that you actually don't own / have never owned a 1-series body. Holding a 1Ds all day is a lot better than holding a 5-series all day. When it rains during a shoot, I don't stop and put rain covers on, I keep shooting - and at very low volume, 21mp rates. I've dropped my rig in mud, sand, water while shooting landscapes. I've laid my camera in puddles to do low level shots. And, I never worried about the camera once.

I guess you think that ultra high-res Hasselblad shooters also do low volume work - tell that to the shooters who routinely shoot 1500 shots in studio on a daily basis doing fashion/catalog/modelling at 50mp.

The money is in consumer cameras where they'll sell a new model everytime one comes out to the same person - because it has new features and gimicks. That new technology trickles up slowly to the top of the line through the Rebel->xxD->xD->1-series. Most 1 series shooters don't care about the newest, latest/greatest. We want something that works, is tested, stable, reliable and gets our goal done without having to think, worry, or fiddle around. The camera is expected to produce repeatable, consistent response as soon as it's picked up - and for years to come in any condition and no matter if that is 100 or 100,000 frames this week.
I agree the 1 series is about high volume work and reliability, easier and more comfortable to work with for daylong handheld shooting. I agree totally and completely. I don't understand where you think I've said something to the contrary?

Yes, I know that some MF shooters will shoot a thousand shots a day. I also know such shooters make up a relatively small portion of the market. When I say "high volume" I am typically refering to photojournalists, sports photogs, high end wedding shooters...people who generally will take speed and reliability over megapixel count.

But at the risk of getting hung up on semantics: 21mp is not really "high megapixel" anymore.

I've got a friend who is a high end wedding photographer. He's shot Nikon forever...he picked up a D800 and tried it out for a wedding. Loved the images but hated the big files and slower workflow. The benefits of a high res sensor might be noticeable in a fine art print...but not to his wedding clients. He gained no upside from the bigger sensor.

The point is that in general photographers who as a practical matter want more than 18-21 megapixels are more likely to be shooting low volume work. This being an internet forum I of course must explicitly spell out the disclaimer: not ALL cases...in GENERAL. We're talking in broad brush strokes here. Landscape photography, architecture photography, fine art, etc. These are the types of shooters who most frequently want more than 21mp. These are also the types of shooters who benefit less from the more robustly performing 1 series bodies.

(Nikon already has recognized this logic which is why their top performing, highest priced flagship camera is not their highest megapixel camera.)

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Re: A Big Megapixel Discussion
« Reply #120 on: June 17, 2013, 09:14:30 PM »

jrista

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Re: A Big Megapixel Discussion
« Reply #121 on: June 17, 2013, 09:21:37 PM »

I am not sure I'd call 30-50mp DSLR's "medium format killers".

Agreed! And we must not forget that as technology advances and the pixel count and quality of FF advances, so will the MF cameras....

Everything has it's plusses and minuses.... as sensor format sizes get larger, so does the lens mm size needed for the same field of view... and the area of the lens is squared.... and the weight is cubed..... and the cost!!!!
For studio work, it's hard to compete with MF.... but if you are lugging a camera up a mountain to attempt some bird photos, then FF or even APS-C can't be beat. Can you imagine the size/weight/cost of the MF equivalent of a 600mmF4?

Good point about the weight. Not that I think MF really fits the bill for action shooters who need 600mm lenses, but even with wider angle lenses, there is a greater heft to medium format gear for sure. The difference in weight between APS-C and FF is negligible in most cases, which makes FF an ideal balance of sensor area and pixel count with overall weight.

Hillsilly

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Re: A Big Megapixel Discussion
« Reply #122 on: June 17, 2013, 11:32:14 PM »
After attending a Pele Leung presentation last night, it is very interesting to see how some professionals have countered the limitations of a 16mp sensor through stitching techniques.  Many of his images end up being more than 100mp in size with exceptional detail and sharpness.  Bit of an eye opener to see what's possible, but just makes me want a high MP camera!
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Re: A Big Megapixel Discussion
« Reply #123 on: June 18, 2013, 01:25:58 AM »
No DSLR is a medium format camera killer. I like the images from the H5D-60. If you are in the fashion and fine arts business this camera is the one and only.

But the new big megapixel camera(s) from Canon are really good.

I don´t have such a strap (maybe a fake or new) and no type label on my camera.

I expect the EOS 7D Mark II (and or 70D) announcement in August/September 2013 and the EOS 3D (2D) announcement in October 2013.

Different prototypes are tested over a long time. The big question is: Can Canon produce the cameras quickly and without quality problems.

But Nikon is not sleeping. I expect the big megapixel D4X announcement as well in October 2013.

Hint: I don´t know what Canon put on the market, but the 46.1 MP, 5 frame per second, Dual DIGIC 5+,
ISO 50-12800, 1DX AF, 2 CF Card slots works really good.
 
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 09:02:19 AM by M.ST »

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Re: A Big Megapixel Discussion
« Reply #124 on: June 18, 2013, 06:05:17 AM »
Confused about this whole medium format thing. So why do you need 100 megapixels for fashion? Is that for advertising on billboards? Other than that am I missing something? Better image quality?
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Re: A Big Megapixel Discussion
« Reply #125 on: June 18, 2013, 09:01:04 AM »
The camera has only 60 megapixels.

Customers want the best image quality and high megapixel images for big worldwide campaigns (big prints for walls, facades and billboards).

What the customer get ins only what the customer want.

No DSLR is a medium format camera killer = No DSLR can beat the image quality of a medium format camera until now. On the other side the DSLR is much faster, weather sealed, good in low light and able to use fast shutter speeds.

There is no one-for-all-camera. Every camera has it´s pros and cons.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 09:11:13 AM by M.ST »

insanitybeard

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Re: A Big Megapixel Discussion
« Reply #126 on: June 18, 2013, 10:25:04 AM »
WE WANT BETTER PIXELS

NOT JUST MORE OF THEM!


Your pixels will be smaller....

Strewth Don, I had to strain my eyes to read that  ;D At first I thought it was some grey line or error!
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Re: A Big Megapixel Discussion
« Reply #126 on: June 18, 2013, 10:25:04 AM »

jrista

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Re: A Big Megapixel Discussion
« Reply #127 on: June 18, 2013, 11:31:11 AM »
No DSLR is a medium format camera killer. I like the images from the H5D-60. If you are in the fashion and fine arts business this camera is the one and only.

But the new big megapixel camera(s) from Canon are really good.

Hint: I don´t know what Canon put on the market, but the 46.1 MP, 5 frame per second, Dual DIGIC 5+,
ISO 50-12800, 1DX AF, 2 CF Card slots works really good.

Are you claiming that you have actually USED a Canon "Big Megapixel" prototype? So far, there have only been rumors about such things, no concrete information whatsoever. Your claim sounds a little far fetched, but if it is true, then it would be pretty major rumor news for CR...

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Re: A Big Megapixel Discussion
« Reply #128 on: June 18, 2013, 10:26:57 PM »
No DSLR is a medium format camera killer. I like the images from the H5D-60. If you are in the fashion and fine arts business this camera is the one and only.

But the new big megapixel camera(s) from Canon are really good.

Hint: I don´t know what Canon put on the market, but the 46.1 MP, 5 frame per second, Dual DIGIC 5+,
ISO 50-12800, 1DX AF, 2 CF Card slots works really good.

Are you claiming that you have actually USED a Canon "Big Megapixel" prototype? So far, there have only been rumors about such things, no concrete information whatsoever. Your claim sounds a little far fetched, but if it is true, then it would be pretty major rumor news for CR...
M.ST has been posting stuff for quite a while now that makes it clear that he is one of those who get to test out Canon's cameras before we get to hear about them officially.

He's clearly subject to an NDA.

So (IMO) let's keep listening to what he has to say and let's not push him to reveal more.

I am prepared to believe he has access to the information he shares, so I enjoy reading his "hints".
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jrista

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Re: A Big Megapixel Discussion
« Reply #129 on: June 19, 2013, 12:49:07 AM »
No DSLR is a medium format camera killer. I like the images from the H5D-60. If you are in the fashion and fine arts business this camera is the one and only.

But the new big megapixel camera(s) from Canon are really good.

Hint: I don´t know what Canon put on the market, but the 46.1 MP, 5 frame per second, Dual DIGIC 5+,
ISO 50-12800, 1DX AF, 2 CF Card slots works really good.

Are you claiming that you have actually USED a Canon "Big Megapixel" prototype? So far, there have only been rumors about such things, no concrete information whatsoever. Your claim sounds a little far fetched, but if it is true, then it would be pretty major rumor news for CR...
M.ST has been posting stuff for quite a while now that makes it clear that he is one of those who get to test out Canon's cameras before we get to hear about them officially.

He's clearly subject to an NDA.

So (IMO) let's keep listening to what he has to say and let's not push him to reveal more.

I am prepared to believe he has access to the information he shares, so I enjoy reading his "hints".

Well, if that's the case, then I have to say that 46.1mp, 5fps, and 61pt AF sounds pretty damn nice. The ISO range makes me curious as well...starting at ISO 50....really makes me wonder if DR will be extremely good! :) I'd be pretty happy with that for my landscape and astrophotography work.

I am extremely curious about the 46.1mp count specifically, though, as such a sensor wouldn't necessarily need a new CMOS fabrication process to achieve...Canon could produce it with the same process, same exact pixels, as the current 18mp APS-C sensor. Canon's 18mp sensor isn't well known for its IQ....

I really hope this camera uses a new fabrication process...something other than the ancient 500nm process that Canon has been using for the last decade. I really want the IQ of this sensor to excel, and offer maximum DR at base ISO, maximum Q.E. at max ISO, and superior quality overall.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 12:51:10 AM by jrista »

privatebydesign

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Re: A Big Megapixel Discussion
« Reply #130 on: June 19, 2013, 07:54:32 AM »
No DSLR is a medium format camera killer. I like the images from the H5D-60. If you are in the fashion and fine arts business this camera is the one and only.

But the new big megapixel camera(s) from Canon are really good.

Hint: I don´t know what Canon put on the market, but the 46.1 MP, 5 frame per second, Dual DIGIC 5+,
ISO 50-12800, 1DX AF, 2 CF Card slots works really good.

Are you claiming that you have actually USED a Canon "Big Megapixel" prototype? So far, there have only been rumors about such things, no concrete information whatsoever. Your claim sounds a little far fetched, but if it is true, then it would be pretty major rumor news for CR...
M.ST has been posting stuff for quite a while now that makes it clear that he is one of those who get to test out Canon's cameras before we get to hear about them officially.

He's clearly subject to an NDA.

So (IMO) let's keep listening to what he has to say and let's not push him to reveal more.

I am prepared to believe he has access to the information he shares, so I enjoy reading his "hints".

M.ST is has been shown on many occasions to have no advanced or insider knowledge what so ever. Do not put any thought into anything he posts, he even promised to stop doing it once but obviously he can't help himself M.ST is a charlatan.
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Re: A Big Megapixel Discussion
« Reply #131 on: June 19, 2013, 09:44:02 AM »
One of the points that everyone is missing when comparing a very high MP FF camera to MF, is that the latter uses a longer focal length to achieve the same field of view. This is even more pronounced on a LF camera.

Ever wondered why a landscape shot on a 10x8 has a certain je ne sais quoi ? It's not just the resolution.  ;)

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Re: A Big Megapixel Discussion
« Reply #132 on: June 19, 2013, 12:01:30 PM »


The banding noise issues are the result of high frequency components, particularly when they are off-die. Sony Exmors design was implemented in the way it was implemented to achieve more than just high dynamic range at low ISO. Fundamentally, Exmor's Column-Parallel ADC is designed to support high speed digital readout. Certainly, increasing frame rate from 4fps to 10fps will increase noise contribution a little (that's the consequence of high frequency logic), but Exmor has such a low read noise level that you could effectively double it, and still have one of the cleanest readouts in the world.

It is not improbable that we could see high res, high readout rate sensors at 8-10fps within the next couple of generations of DSLR sensors. I don't suspect it will happen by next year, but I do expect it to happen.

Hopefully it happens with a 5DIV (frequently shooting a 5DIII) or 5DV. Wrong camp, I know, but I guess new tech will be applied in other bodies too. As I am all for highest possible ISOs...
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 12:03:16 PM by pedro »
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Re: A Big Megapixel Discussion
« Reply #132 on: June 19, 2013, 12:01:30 PM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: A Big Megapixel Discussion
« Reply #133 on: June 19, 2013, 12:06:06 PM »
One of the points that everyone is missing when comparing a very high MP FF camera to MF, is that the latter uses a longer focal length to achieve the same field of view. This is even more pronounced on a LF camera.

Ever wondered why a landscape shot on a 10x8 has a certain je ne sais quoi ? It's not just the resolution.  ;)

What's the relationship between focal length and je ne sais quoi?   ;)

Note that when one uses a longer focal length with a larger sensor to acheive the same FoV as a shorter lens with a smaller sensor, there's no difference in perspective. 
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Re: A Big Megapixel Discussion
« Reply #134 on: June 19, 2013, 01:27:27 PM »
One of the points that everyone is missing when comparing a very high MP FF camera to MF, is that the latter uses a longer focal length to achieve the same field of view. This is even more pronounced on a LF camera.

Ever wondered why a landscape shot on a 10x8 has a certain je ne sais quoi ? It's not just the resolution.  ;)

What's the relationship between focal length and je ne sais quoi?   ;)

Note that when one uses a longer focal length with a larger sensor to acheive the same FoV as a shorter lens with a smaller sensor, there's no difference in perspective.


True, but there is a difference in magnification  ;)

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Re: A Big Megapixel Discussion
« Reply #134 on: June 19, 2013, 01:27:27 PM »