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Author Topic: The Unthinkable: Swapped out 5D3 for 6D  (Read 36715 times)

jrista

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Re: The Unthinkable: Swapped out 5D3 for 6D
« Reply #90 on: December 05, 2013, 10:30:21 PM »
to have such consistent problems focusing indicates either operator error or a defective copy.

Well considering that honestly out of 1000+ shots I only got 3 or 4 (the rest were out of focus) I was happy with I would say that it is possible I got a bad copy. Canon had done a workshop and brought equipment to borrow so I got the 5D3 for the day. I stuck my 7D is my camera vest and slapped on my EF 70-300L.

I was shooting with 2 friends who had already owned the 5D3 for quite a while and I was shooting with al kinds of different settings. I was asking tons of questions about the camera and I was gladly listening to their advice. Center point, AF expansion, aperture priority, whatever. I wanted to give the camera an honest try.

And for the record I am not on a crusade to prove anything. $3400 is a ton of mone

True, $3400 is a lot of money. No question there...although lately I've seen it less than $3000 on average (I've gotten quite a few email updates from CanonPriceWatch showing the camera as low as $2850 a couple times over the last few months.) Still, ~$3000 is a lot of money. That said, it has maintained a rough parity with the D800 price for quite a while, and the "advertised" prices are usually $3400 due to Canon's new MAP rules...you usually have to actually put it in your cart to see the true selling price.

I would give it another try. LensRentals has an excellent track record with shipping out quality gear, because they test everything upon return, so you should get a better copy. Make sure, if you are doing BIF, you configure the necessary AF custom functions to support continuous AF at all times, slow subject switching, AF drive vs. shutter activate priority, etc. to make sure you get consistent AF behavior. Try using one of the expansion modes as well, because the 5D III AF points are smaller than the 7D points, which makes it a lot harder to use just the single center point (which would be almost like trying to use the 7D's center spot AF, which is almost impossible for BIF.)
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Re: The Unthinkable: Swapped out 5D3 for 6D
« Reply #90 on: December 05, 2013, 10:30:21 PM »

Richard8971

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Re: The Unthinkable: Swapped out 5D3 for 6D
« Reply #91 on: December 05, 2013, 10:47:44 PM »
to have such consistent problems focusing indicates either operator error or a defective copy.

Well considering that honestly out of 1000+ shots I only got 3 or 4 (the rest were out of focus) I was happy with I would say that it is possible I got a bad copy. Canon had done a workshop and brought equipment to borrow so I got the 5D3 for the day. I stuck my 7D is my camera vest and slapped on my EF 70-300L.

I was shooting with 2 friends who had already owned the 5D3 for quite a while and I was shooting with al kinds of different settings. I was asking tons of questions about the camera and I was gladly listening to their advice. Center point, AF expansion, aperture priority, whatever. I wanted to give the camera an honest try.

And for the record I am not on a crusade to prove anything. $3400 is a ton of mone

True, $3400 is a lot of money. No question there...although lately I've seen it less than $3000 on average (I've gotten quite a few email updates from CanonPriceWatch showing the camera as low as $2850 a couple times over the last few months.) Still, ~$3000 is a lot of money. That said, it has maintained a rough parity with the D800 price for quite a while, and the "advertised" prices are usually $3400 due to Canon's new MAP rules...you usually have to actually put it in your cart to see the true selling price.

I would give it another try. LensRentals has an excellent track record with shipping out quality gear, because they test everything upon return, so you should get a better copy. Make sure, if you are doing BIF, you configure the necessary AF custom functions to support continuous AF at all times, slow subject switching, AF drive vs. shutter activate priority, etc. to make sure you get consistent AF behavior. Try using one of the expansion modes as well, because the 5D III AF points are smaller than the 7D points, which makes it a lot harder to use just the single center point (which would be almost like trying to use the 7D's center spot AF, which is almost impossible for BIF.)

I had written more to my post. CR for some reason slows down and locks up when I try and type a reply. I can only get a few sentences before I have to post and go back and modify so I can finish what I was typing.

And I don't just use "spot AF" for BIF. I usually use just the center point or mainly the very center ones. (like center AF expansion)  I don't use "full auto AF" so that the camera just randomly picks what it thinks I want. I put the bird in the center and that way I know I have the best chance of it locking on to it and nothing else.

I know I can get the 5D3 cheaper than $3400 but I would only shell out that kind of money through B&H or Adorama, but I have only seen it a couple of hundred cheaper.

D
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 10:56:17 PM by Richard8971 »
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Re: The Unthinkable: Swapped out 5D3 for 6D
« Reply #92 on: December 05, 2013, 11:33:29 PM »
to have such consistent problems focusing indicates either operator error or a defective copy.

Well considering that honestly out of 1000+ shots I only got 3 or 4 (the rest were out of focus) I was happy with I would say that it is possible I got a bad copy. Canon had done a workshop and brought equipment to borrow so I got the 5D3 for the day. I stuck my 7D is my camera vest and slapped on my EF 70-300L.

I was shooting with 2 friends who had already owned the 5D3 for quite a while and I was shooting with al kinds of different settings. I was asking tons of questions about the camera and I was gladly listening to their advice. Center point, AF expansion, aperture priority, whatever. I wanted to give the camera an honest try.

And for the record I am not on a crusade to prove anything. $3400 is a ton of mone

True, $3400 is a lot of money. No question there...although lately I've seen it less than $3000 on average (I've gotten quite a few email updates from CanonPriceWatch showing the camera as low as $2850 a couple times over the last few months.) Still, ~$3000 is a lot of money. That said, it has maintained a rough parity with the D800 price for quite a while, and the "advertised" prices are usually $3400 due to Canon's new MAP rules...you usually have to actually put it in your cart to see the true selling price.

I would give it another try. LensRentals has an excellent track record with shipping out quality gear, because they test everything upon return, so you should get a better copy. Make sure, if you are doing BIF, you configure the necessary AF custom functions to support continuous AF at all times, slow subject switching, AF drive vs. shutter activate priority, etc. to make sure you get consistent AF behavior. Try using one of the expansion modes as well, because the 5D III AF points are smaller than the 7D points, which makes it a lot harder to use just the single center point (which would be almost like trying to use the 7D's center spot AF, which is almost impossible for BIF.)

I had written more to my post. CR for some reason slows down and locks up when I try and type a reply. I can only get a few sentences before I have to post and go back and modify so I can finish what I was typing.

And I don't just use "spot AF" for BIF. I usually use just the center point or mainly the very center ones. (like center AF expansion)  I don't use "full auto AF" so that the camera just randomly picks what it thinks I want. I put the bird in the center and that way I know I have the best chance of it locking on to it and nothing else.

I know I can get the 5D3 cheaper than $3400 but I would only shell out that kind of money through B&H or Adorama, but I have only seen it a couple of hundred cheaper.

D

Amazon is also a highly reputable seller and their return policy is one of the best of any retailers, photographic equipment or non-. Currently, they have the 5DIII selling for $2899 although it has been fluctuating this holiday season as low as $2699 (w/ a free SD card, bag and genuine LP-E6), which is what I picked mine up for before they implemented sales tax requirements. I say give it another shot, what do you have to lose (besides thousands of dollars)? :) You can always return it for a full refund and Amazon will even pay for return shipping if it's defective.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007FGYZFI/ref=ox_sc_sfl_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER
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jrista

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Re: The Unthinkable: Swapped out 5D3 for 6D
« Reply #93 on: December 05, 2013, 11:33:59 PM »
to have such consistent problems focusing indicates either operator error or a defective copy.

Well considering that honestly out of 1000+ shots I only got 3 or 4 (the rest were out of focus) I was happy with I would say that it is possible I got a bad copy. Canon had done a workshop and brought equipment to borrow so I got the 5D3 for the day. I stuck my 7D is my camera vest and slapped on my EF 70-300L.

I was shooting with 2 friends who had already owned the 5D3 for quite a while and I was shooting with al kinds of different settings. I was asking tons of questions about the camera and I was gladly listening to their advice. Center point, AF expansion, aperture priority, whatever. I wanted to give the camera an honest try.

And for the record I am not on a crusade to prove anything. $3400 is a ton of mone

True, $3400 is a lot of money. No question there...although lately I've seen it less than $3000 on average (I've gotten quite a few email updates from CanonPriceWatch showing the camera as low as $2850 a couple times over the last few months.) Still, ~$3000 is a lot of money. That said, it has maintained a rough parity with the D800 price for quite a while, and the "advertised" prices are usually $3400 due to Canon's new MAP rules...you usually have to actually put it in your cart to see the true selling price.

I would give it another try. LensRentals has an excellent track record with shipping out quality gear, because they test everything upon return, so you should get a better copy. Make sure, if you are doing BIF, you configure the necessary AF custom functions to support continuous AF at all times, slow subject switching, AF drive vs. shutter activate priority, etc. to make sure you get consistent AF behavior. Try using one of the expansion modes as well, because the 5D III AF points are smaller than the 7D points, which makes it a lot harder to use just the single center point (which would be almost like trying to use the 7D's center spot AF, which is almost impossible for BIF.)

And I don't just use "spot AF" for BIF. I usually use just the center point or mainly the very center ones. (like center AF expansion)  I don't use "full auto AF" so that the camera just randomly picks what it thinks I want. I put the bird in the center and that way I know I have the best chance of it locking on to it and nothing else.

Oh, sure. I wasn't saying you used spot AF. I was saying that using a single center point on the 5D III is almost like using center spot AF on the 7D, as the 5D III's AF points, being part of a very dense reticular grid, are a little smaller. Using 4 or 8 point expansion makes 5D III center point AF VERY good.
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Dylan777

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Re: The Unthinkable: Swapped out 5D3 for 6D
« Reply #94 on: December 06, 2013, 01:09:10 AM »

I actually made the same moves as you John, and for the same reasons. However, after using my 6D for only a few months I soon realized that I sorely missed the more advanced AF system of the 5DIII and have since sold the 6D and bought a 5DIII...again. Although the 6D is truly a superb FF DSLR, I found myself (as an amateur) unable to get a sufficient keeper rate using fast glass and the outer AF points, therefore I would end up using only the center AF point and cropping in because focus-and-recompose at < f/1.4 is not especially effective. Although I do miss the aforementioned features of the 6D, including the -3EV center point, built-in Wi-Fi and that all of the buttons are located on the right side for easy, one-handed access, the 5DIII is in fact a better camera and is therefore priced accordingly.

Overall, I did lose a couple hundred bucks by selling the 5DIII to pick up a 6D, and then selling the 6D to pick up a 5DIII, so if I can give any suggestions from my experience it would be to first and foremost go with the one you can afford and if that is either of them, then go with the 5DIII. The only reason I can see someone downgrading from a 5DIII to a 6D is for cost reasons (as is the case with the OP and me), whereas many 6D users perceive the 5DIII as the next step in the upgrade path due to the more professional features (AF system, dual cards, robust body, etc.), hence the cost difference. Either way, both are excellent bodies and offer some noteworthy features over one another, but if both cameras were priced the same I'd be willing to bet that nearly all of those saying that the 6D is a better camera would end up purchasing the 5DIII or eventually exchanging for it because overall, it is a better camera (although from a $/performance standpoint the 6D clearly wins). Just thought I'd share my experiences ;D

What's the light condition looks like at -3EV? Who photograph at -3EV?

6D might have the advantage with -3EV(on paper speaking), however, will it focus accurate under that light condition or even under -2EV?

To me, having 41 cross-type AF points and 5 dual diagonal AF points are MUST better than 1 AF point camera.

OP will miss his 5D III when he needs to shoot something like this: http://albums.phanfare.com/isolated/t302HPVC/1/6306064

Interestingly, one of my primary uses for that is when using a heavy ND filter (10 stop).  Traditional focusing is almost impossible (viewfinder is dark and even live view only shows so much).  When I used a 5DII I often would have to mount the ND filter after focusing, running the risk of slightly affecting focus.  The 6D can focus just fine with my ND filter attached.

My 5D III focus just fine with 10stop ND @ f9 TWI by Dustin Abbott ;)

My 2cents: There is nothing that 6D can do that 5D III can't - except wifi + GPS feature. Same thing to 1D x, there is nothing 5D III can do that 1D X can't - except better.

I do look forward to be an owner of 1D someday ::) and I'm sure we all look forward to that day - to shoot with better and faster camera

Here are some photos taken with my 5D III at my house today. California time 9:30ish PM. All lights were off. The only light source was from single wood log, burning in the fireplace.

1. First photo - just to show you the lighting around the fireplace - almost no light. There is a Christmas tree on the right hand side of fireplace. The tree is about 5-6ft away from the fireplace. - NO PROBLEM FOCUS ON THE FIREPLACE GRILL/DOOR

2. Second photo - taken with 5D III @ 12800ISO - NO ISSUE FOCUS ON THE ORNAMENT

3. 3rd photo - taken with 5D III @ much slower shutter speed - NO ISSUE FOCUS ON THE ORNAMENT

Again, I don't understand WHY people complaining about 5D III can't focus in the dark.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 01:14:32 AM by Dylan777 »
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Re: The Unthinkable: Swapped out 5D3 for 6D
« Reply #95 on: December 06, 2013, 01:39:37 AM »
With regards those three images, the first is, if you honour iso in EV calculations (which is debatable but consistent) EV+3, this is well within the AF speces, in the order of 32 times more light than minimum, it also has a very strong bar of contrast through it, this image is no test of AF.

The second image is, obviously, underexposed, but is exposed at around EV+0.5, again, well within Canon's stated AF specs.

The third image is impressive, if it is 1.3 seconds as the EXIF indicates that makes that an exposure in the order of EV-3 that is half the light that the specs list, EV-2. It looks like an accurate representation of the scene, though again, there is some good contrast areas of the subject. But it is impressive.
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Re: The Unthinkable: Swapped out 5D3 for 6D
« Reply #96 on: December 06, 2013, 02:14:26 AM »
So over the Thanksgiving weekend, I finally gathered the nerve to just let go of my 5D3 as I was offered a fair price for it. That, in conjunction with the deal for the 6D at $1400 pushed me into pulling the trigger on the swap out. Done and done.

Some things I'm struggling with, some not so much. Either way, I think the decision was the right one for me (for now).

Wondering if anyone else has given the same move some thought.

nice! I have both and since the 6D was released nearly one year ago, I've shot with the 6D consistently.

i've put on well over the rated 150,000 shutter actuations and it still performs as it should.

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Re: The Unthinkable: Swapped out 5D3 for 6D
« Reply #96 on: December 06, 2013, 02:14:26 AM »

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Re: The Unthinkable: Swapped out 5D3 for 6D
« Reply #97 on: December 06, 2013, 03:20:34 AM »
Again, I don't understand WHY people complaining about 5D III can't focus in the dark.

The difference between -3LV and -2LV isn't a big issue, it's a bit of marketing as the one advantage 6d>5d3 and my observation is people gladly take this to rationalize their 6d purchase when in all honesty the 5d3 is the better camera hands down. In a real world side-by-side comparison the 5d3 might even win in lower light because the center 6d point is non-cross for f2.8+ lenses, and dim light tends to make the camera miss more (my observation with my 100L/2.8 & 6d).

Both 5d3 & 6df will fail in complete darkness, and both will be much quicker using af assist ... for what I shoot probably -1LV would be enough, but +0.5LV (like 6d outer points or all of my 60d) is definitely not enough with a f2.8-f4 lens because it starts to fail in reasonably dim light.

i've put on well over the rated 150,000 shutter actuations and it still performs as it should.

It's only rated for 100k shutter :-) but it's good to hear you're encountering no problems, that might mean that the lack of 1/8000s is really marketing and not shutter protection because the part is so cheap. But of course it's a lot of luck, and it also matters if you shoot at fast shutter speeds a lot as this tends to kill it faster afaik.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 03:22:06 AM by Marsu42 »

Canon1

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Re: The Unthinkable: Swapped out 5D3 for 6D
« Reply #98 on: December 06, 2013, 05:44:36 AM »

The 5D3 is a great camera but not worth (at least to me) the $3400 price tag. After reading people's thoughts and reviews I was expecting a powerhouse of a camera, and it really wasn't. I just couldn't justify spending the money on it to upgrade. The 7D is a VERY fast camera and very hard to beat in that department. I shot BIF (birds, raptors exactly, in flight) with the 5D3 and got 10 times more blurry bird shots than I did with my 7D! (Yes I KNOW how to set up my camera for birds in flight, I am NOT new to this! Please don't waste your time telling me how I didn't know what I was doing... I always select the center point on AF and use AI Servo...) I was also using my own EF 70-300L on the 5D3. That lens is lighting fast on AF, so I know the fault wasn't with the lens.

Not trying to start a fight here but.... you definitely didn't have the 5DIII AF set up correctly for the type of shooting you were doing (or something else was going on).  I have shot extensively with Rebels, 7D, 1DIV, 5DII and 5DIII for BIF... hands down the 5DIII is the best out of all of these regarding AF speed and accuracy.  The 7D does have a very good AF system but once you get the setup right on the 5DIII it is nothing short of amazing.

Regarding the OP.  Glad you sorted out your priorities.  It sounds like you are looking for some justification for your decision from the forum and there are definitely a lot of people who think along similar lines.  The 5DIII is a fully customizable workhorse and for many shooters it is certainly overkill.  The cameras you are using are great and will not hold you back from making great images.  Happy shooting.

Canon1, would you please share your setup for the 5DIII? I have been shooting with the 6D and I am not happy with it's AF, particularly it's slow focus lock time using a 70-300Lens. My 60D is much better.

So I intend to sell the 6D and buy a III. I shot a lot of birds and think I will be much happier.

Sure.  This is what works for me:

Tracking sensitivity set to "-2": I use this setting most of the time.  Once I acquire focus on a BIF this setting helps to keep it locked on despite whether the focus point moves off the bird for a moment or another bird passes between the desired subject (or a tree passes between as the bird flies by, etc...)  This can slow down the initial acquisition s tiny bit but is un-noticable on ast primes.  If using a slower AF lens like 100-400 then you can bump this setting to "-1"

Accel/decel tracking set to "+2": Many birds are erratic in flight, this helps keep lock on.  (not as big a deal with slow subjects like geese but this really helps with fishing terns, etc...

Af Point autoswitching: I dont care about this setting.  I don't use 61 pt AF Auto selection...

I also very frequently use 4 point AF Expansion.  When shooting BIF that don't fill much of the frame it can be difficult to get the center point over the BIF to acquire intitial lock.  Using 4 Point expansion really helps especially when shooting handheld and not from a gimball head. 

Should go without saying that camera is also in AI Servo and high speed burst and all lenses calibrated with focal pro....

Hope this info helps.

Hi Canon1,
Looks like you and I have same setting here ;)

AI servo, case# 2, 4-8points expansion.

Keeper rate is high, as you can see here: http://albums.phanfare.com/isolated/t302HPVC/1/6306064

Out of 61 AF points, I only activate 41 cross type AF points and 5 dual cross type AF points on both of my 5D III.

I don't use case #2. I manually override the settings. Case 2 is "-1,0,0". I use "-2,+2".   None of the preset cases quite nail it.   ;)

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Re: The Unthinkable: Swapped out 5D3 for 6D
« Reply #99 on: December 06, 2013, 08:15:12 AM »
The 5th isn't worth 3499$. More like 2499$.

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Re: The Unthinkable: Swapped out 5D3 for 6D
« Reply #100 on: December 06, 2013, 11:15:29 AM »
With regards those three images,
The second image is, obviously, underexposed, but is exposed at around EV+0.5, again, well within Canon's stated AF specs.the first is, if you honour iso in EV calculations (which is debatable but consistent) EV+3, this is well within the AF speces, in the order of 32 times more light than minimum, it also has a very strong bar of contrast through it, this image is no test of AF.


The third image is impressive, if it is 1.3 seconds as the EXIF indicates that makes that an exposure in the order of EV-3 that is half the light that the specs list, EV-2. It looks like an accurate representation of the scene, though again, there is some good contrast areas of the subject. But it is impressive.

The 1st photo is just to show everyone here the light condition around fireplace - plenty of light when aiming at the fire.

Yes - 2nd photo was handheld. Shooting @ 1/80 and I believed my camera was set ISO limit at 12800ISO, therefore, it caused under exp

The 3rd one taken from the side. The camera was set on the tripod to shoot at slower shutter.

The point here is, I found 5D III -2EV is adequate for most low light situation.

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JohnDizzo15

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Re: The Unthinkable: Swapped out 5D3 for 6D
« Reply #101 on: December 06, 2013, 11:22:26 AM »
With regards those three images,
The second image is, obviously, underexposed, but is exposed at around EV+0.5, again, well within Canon's stated AF specs.the first is, if you honour iso in EV calculations (which is debatable but consistent) EV+3, this is well within the AF speces, in the order of 32 times more light than minimum, it also has a very strong bar of contrast through it, this image is no test of AF.


The third image is impressive, if it is 1.3 seconds as the EXIF indicates that makes that an exposure in the order of EV-3 that is half the light that the specs list, EV-2. It looks like an accurate representation of the scene, though again, there is some good contrast areas of the subject. But it is impressive.

The 1st photo is just to show everyone here the light condition around fireplace - plenty of light when aiming at the fire.

Yes - 2nd photo was handheld. Shooting @ 1/80 and I believed my camera was set ISO limit at 12800ISO, therefore, it caused under exp

The 3rd one taken from the side. The camera was set on the tripod to shoot at slower shutter.

The point here is, I found 5D III -2EV is adequate for most low light situation.

Agreed re the adequacy of the 5D3 in lowlight conditions. I think the point people make about the slight increase in sensitivity is basically moot although there is a difference. It is much like the point people make about the flash sync speed being faster on the 5D3. Those comparisons are minutia at this point and really shouldn't be a major factor in the decision making process.

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Re: The Unthinkable: Swapped out 5D3 for 6D
« Reply #102 on: December 06, 2013, 12:26:51 PM »
Well all this talk about the 6D AF in extreme low light...  What the hell are you guys shooting that requires AF?
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Re: The Unthinkable: Swapped out 5D3 for 6D
« Reply #102 on: December 06, 2013, 12:26:51 PM »

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Re: The Unthinkable: Swapped out 5D3 for 6D
« Reply #103 on: December 06, 2013, 02:19:42 PM »
said it before and will say it again --the 6d is a great 'buddy' to my mk3.  Would i sell the mk3?   No, in wedding work you need the 2 bodies, even if you treat one purely as a backup.  So no way would i sell.  And at this point, I wouldn't even sell for a second mk3 - because the 6d does perform very well!

When i first snagged the 6d I had thought it to be for sure the lesser body.  Originally I saw it as the body i'd mount the wide lenses on (the 6d would be like a machete and the mk3 would be like the scalpel).  But that was mostly because i had read too much on CR ---and determined that the outer points were useless (not from use, but from reading) ---well you know what, the outer points do work!  They focus just fine in decent to ok light.  Even in a reception hall for the first dance, with a 50mm 1.4, it works (ok, yes, sometimes you do need AF assist from flash).

Either way, i like the 6d.  Does it replace the mk3, nope.  Is it a great companion for the mk3...yes
Owns 5Dmkiii, 6D, 16-35mm, 24mm 1.4, 70-200mm 2.8, 50mm 1.4, 85 mm 1.8, 100mm 2.8 macro, 1-600RT, 2 430 EX's, 1 video light

CarlTN

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Re: The Unthinkable: Swapped out 5D3 for 6D
« Reply #104 on: December 06, 2013, 02:52:32 PM »
said it before and will say it again --the 6d is a great 'buddy' to my mk3.  Would i sell the mk3?   No, in wedding work you need the 2 bodies, even if you treat one purely as a backup.  So no way would i sell.  And at this point, I wouldn't even sell for a second mk3 - because the 6d does perform very well!

When i first snagged the 6d I had thought it to be for sure the lesser body.  Originally I saw it as the body i'd mount the wide lenses on (the 6d would be like a machete and the mk3 would be like the scalpel).  But that was mostly because i had read too much on CR ---and determined that the outer points were useless (not from use, but from reading) ---well you know what, the outer points do work!  They focus just fine in decent to ok light.  Even in a reception hall for the first dance, with a 50mm 1.4, it works (ok, yes, sometimes you do need AF assist from flash).

Either way, i like the 6d.  Does it replace the mk3, nope.  Is it a great companion for the mk3...yes

Well said!

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Re: The Unthinkable: Swapped out 5D3 for 6D
« Reply #104 on: December 06, 2013, 02:52:32 PM »