June 19, 2018, 10:47:57 AM

Author Topic: Patent: Canon Wide Angle Zoom for Full Frame Mirrorless Camera  (Read 5744 times)

Talys

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Re: Patent: Canon Wide Angle Zoom for Full Frame Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2018, 03:47:11 PM »
I would bet on a new lens mount.
Buy an adapter to keep using  your EF lenses.
New lenses for the new mount. It creates a new set of lenses to sell and market.

Face it, Canon doesn't want you to keep using your old EF lenses. They want you to buy new lenses.

.3052*8
+
While the above numbers may seem like nonsense. It is what I typed while trying to kill a small spider that ran down in to the keyboard between the 3 and 5 key. The little sucker is still in there.

I think that the DSLR isn't dead for at least one maybe two decades. The 200D/SL2 won against M5 due to zero power operability with the right lenses for checking a scene.
My conclusion is that we will see a peaceful coexistence of EF and EF-M(?) mount. If the adapter is cheap (70 USD/EUR or so) you can buy one for each important EF lens after dismissing the DSLR. In most cases there is no size or weight penalty - take a look at the typical mirrorless lens: Built in extension tube between DSLR designed lens group and mirrorless body.

Spider removal: Vacuum your keyboard through a mesh to keep the key caps in place - also feasible for bread crumbs :)

16-30mm patent: good to see Canon pull advantages out of the missing mirror by using optimized lens designs!

I think that DSLRs aren't dead until there is are orders of magnitude leaps in battery technology. 

There will always be a demand for a recording device where you can peer down a scope and not consume power.  What if you're an investigator and you're taking a few dozen photos, but watching a location continuously for days? What if you're taking time lapses over a long period of time?

And as far as EVFs have come, they have a long, long way to go before they are indistinguishable from what one sees of light bent through glass.

I don't think that large, professional cameras are dead, period.  There is no magic voodoo to make 1-4kg+ lenses fit in your pocket, and that means that until someone invents tricorders, there will always be a demand for a camera body that is appropriately sized and ergonomically designed for large telephoto lenses.

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Re: Patent: Canon Wide Angle Zoom for Full Frame Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2018, 03:47:11 PM »

Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: Patent: Canon Wide Angle Zoom for Full Frame Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2018, 11:39:51 PM »
Is this the first sign they could be dropping EF mount? So far almost every lens rumour favours EF.

Not every patent turns into a lens.

It seems like every week there are one or more lens patents.... it has to be less than ten percent of them that result in a lens being made.
However, patents for a product like a mirrorless camera point to someone at Canon approving spending for R&D to develop a mirrorless system, that should be cause for discussion.  Those who approve R&D budgets put money where they believe it will do some good.  When it gets to the point of developing lenses and adapters, even giving dimensions for the mount, its a strong hint.

pj1974

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Re: Patent: Canon Wide Angle Zoom for Full Frame Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #32 on: May 24, 2018, 12:25:36 AM »
I would bet on a new lens mount.
Buy an adapter to keep using  your EF lenses.
New lenses for the new mount. It creates a new set of lenses to sell and market.

Face it, Canon doesn't want you to keep using your old EF lenses. They want you to buy new lenses.

.3052*8
+
While the above numbers may seem like nonsense. It is what I typed while trying to kill a small spider that ran down in to the keyboard between the 3 and 5 key. The little sucker is still in there.

I think that the DSLR isn't dead for at least one maybe two decades. The 200D/SL2 won against M5 due to zero power operability with the right lenses for checking a scene.
My conclusion is that we will see a peaceful coexistence of EF and EF-M(?) mount. If the adapter is cheap (70 USD/EUR or so) you can buy one for each important EF lens after dismissing the DSLR. In most cases there is no size or weight penalty - take a look at the typical mirrorless lens: Built in extension tube between DSLR designed lens group and mirrorless body.

Spider removal: Vacuum your keyboard through a mesh to keep the key caps in place - also feasible for bread crumbs :)

{Snip}

I think that DSLRs aren't dead until there is are orders of magnitude leaps in battery technology. 

There will always be a demand for a recording device where you can peer down a scope and not consume power.  What if you're an investigator and you're taking a few dozen photos, but watching a location continuously for days? What if you're taking time lapses over a long period of time?

And as far as EVFs have come, they have a long, long way to go before they are indistinguishable from what one sees of light bent through glass.

{Snip}


I agree, that there is a place for both DSLR and mirrorless.
Summary reasons: minimal battery usage & where the sensor is not exposed continually during 'preview'.
Quality of EVFs is improving, and in some situations are as good (or even better) than OVFs, but in other situations / scenarios, the OVF is superior. For sports, I believe DSLRs will continue to reign for some time.

I like the live view of modern Canon DSLRs, (especially those with DPAF)... it is like having most of the advantages of mirrorless and DSLR together in 1 body!

PJ

PS - good trick / idea to suck up spiders or breadcrumbs from a keyboard!
I appreciate using my Canon DSLRs along with a host of lenses & many accessories to capture quality photos, and share with friends.

Ah-Keong

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Re: Patent: Canon Wide Angle Zoom for Full Frame Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #33 on: May 24, 2018, 05:20:30 AM »
oh!
the new MF mount!~

Would Canon do a mount conversion service?
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csibra

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Re: Patent: Canon Wide Angle Zoom for Full Frame Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2018, 11:59:56 AM »
<p>A patent for an optical formula showing  a wide angle zoom lens for a full frame mirrorless body has appeared.</p>
<ul>
<li>Image height: 21.64mm</li>
</ul>

21.64mm height will be not enough for fullframe sensor height.

fullstop

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Re: Patent: Canon Wide Angle Zoom for Full Frame Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2018, 12:28:29 PM »
No, there have been several patents that were FF mirrorless related over the past few years, lenses, including a EF- new lens mount converter.  We know what the news lens mount will likely look like, assuming that Canon decides to go with it, which looks likely.

would you mind stating the lens mount parameters you are referring to and/or provide link please? Must have missed it - or forgotten already. :-)

Talys

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Re: Patent: Canon Wide Angle Zoom for Full Frame Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2018, 01:22:28 PM »
I don't know why there is so much speculation about EFM being full frame.

It's not going to happen.  Based on what Canon has publically said on that DPR interview and what the person(s) told CR guy, it's something clever/elegant/imaginative (I forget the words used).  There is absolutely nothing clever about an EFM to EF adapter, whether it's full frame or not, because, I mean, those already exist.

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Re: Patent: Canon Wide Angle Zoom for Full Frame Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2018, 01:22:28 PM »

BillB

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Re: Patent: Canon Wide Angle Zoom for Full Frame Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #37 on: May 24, 2018, 01:31:24 PM »
<p>A patent for an optical formula showing  a wide angle zoom lens for a full frame mirrorless body has appeared.</p>
<ul>
<li>Image height: 21.64mm</li>
</ul>

21.64mm height will be not enough for fullframe sensor height.

I believe that the image height is the radius of the image circle not the diameter.  A 24x36 image will fit within an image circle of 21.64mm.

ahsanford

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Re: Patent: Canon Wide Angle Zoom for Full Frame Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #38 on: May 24, 2018, 01:41:35 PM »
I believe that the image height is the radius of the image circle not the diameter.  A 24x36 image will fit within an image circle of 21.64mm.

[Adds "Is EF-M big enough to cover FF sensors" to the endless/unresolved debate queue, alongside the choice to use UV/clear filters or not.]

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jolyonralph

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Re: Patent: Canon Wide Angle Zoom for Full Frame Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2018, 06:46:07 PM »
[Adds "Is EF-M big enough to cover FF sensors" to the endless/unresolved debate queue, alongside the choice to use UV/clear filters or not.]

When the mount size and electrical contact positioning of the EF-M mount is almost *identical* to the Sony FE mount I can't see why we still have doubters.  Well, I suppose in a world of Flat Earthers etc I shouldn't be that surprised. But the evidence is right there in front of your eyes. EF-M is full-frame capable. It was designed to be so, just as the Sony E/FE mount was.
Jolyon Ralph

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Re: Patent: Canon Wide Angle Zoom for Full Frame Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2018, 07:20:13 PM »
[Adds "Is EF-M big enough to cover FF sensors" to the endless/unresolved debate queue, alongside the choice to use UV/clear filters or not.]

When the mount size and electrical contact positioning of the EF-M mount is almost *identical* to the Sony FE mount I can't see why we still have doubters.  Well, I suppose in a world of Flat Earthers etc I shouldn't be that surprised. But the evidence is right there in front of your eyes. EF-M is full-frame capable. It was designed to be so, just as the Sony E/FE mount was.

Canon EF-M was definitely NOT designed to be FF-capable. There was an interview with a Canon exec who stated it. Can prob dig it out if really necessary. EF-M might possibly be "forced into FF service", just like the Sony E-mount. With all known downsides: lenses way longer, more complex, heavier and more expensive than need be = Sony FE. From how the chronology of events I am also quite certain that Sony did not design E-mount to be FF capable from the start. E-mount parameters are well chosen for APS-C but borderline for FF. Had Sony really  wanted to also use it for FF, they would have made the throat width a few mm wider and things would have been much easier going forward. 

Only due to the amount of discussion in the internets re. "the many mounts Sony has and how terribly confusing that is, OMG" and with all the angst by some vocal old A-mount farts, did Sony decide to NOT introduce a wisely chosen mirrorless FF mount (in addition to APS-C E mount). Poor results of that poor decision are evident.
   

jolyonralph

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Re: Patent: Canon Wide Angle Zoom for Full Frame Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #41 on: May 26, 2018, 02:31:10 PM »
Canon EF-M was definitely NOT designed to be FF-capable. There was an interview with a Canon exec who stated it. Can prob dig it out if really necessary. EF-M might possibly be "forced into FF service", just like the Sony E-mount. With all known downsides: lenses way longer, more complex, heavier and more expensive than need be = Sony FE. From how the chronology of events I am also quite certain that Sony did not design E-mount to be FF capable from the start. E-mount parameters are well chosen for APS-C but borderline for FF. Had Sony really  wanted to also use it for FF, they would have made the throat width a few mm wider and things would have been much easier going forward. 

Only due to the amount of discussion in the internets re. "the many mounts Sony has and how terribly confusing that is, OMG" and with all the angst by some vocal old A-mount farts, did Sony decide to NOT introduce a wisely chosen mirrorless FF mount (in addition to APS-C E mount). Poor results of that poor decision are evident.
 

I don't agree. If they had designed EF-M to be APS-C only then why waste valuable space making it bigger? It's not about being "forced into FF service", it's simply that both Sony and Canon were wise enough to plan ahead and make their mounts FF capable.

Why would the throat width need to be wider? What are these "poor results" you speak of?  You do realise the throat width is the same as the Nikon F mount?

And oh yes, does that mean that you won't be able to use autofocus lenses faster than f/1.4?  NO it doesn't. Because it turns out that having a smaller flange distance allows you to have a smaller throat width.  And I can prove it. I have just put the EF 85mm f/1.2L on the Sony A7RII with a metabones adaptor.   Autofocus is working fine, there's no clipping of the image, and vignetting is no different to how it is on the Canon.   

Oh of course, we also get unclipped bokeh too, which is why I prefer this combination to any Canon DSLR for using the 85mm.

So. I hear a lot of internet experts proudly proclaiming there are so many problems with using the EF-M mount for full frame, or that the Sony FE mount somehow has problems with quality. But no-one has provided any real proof.


Let's talk about lens mount confusion.

Right now Canon has three mounts that are only partly compatible.

EF mount takes only EF lenses (plus a few special case TS, MP-E)
EF-S mount takes all of the above plus EF-S lenses.
EF-M takes only EF-M lenses (or others with an adaptor)

It doesn't take a genius to realise the EF-S mount is going to wither and die, Canon are surely aiming to replace the Rebel line with the EOS-M line. Their big push on the M50 is part of this.  They'll produce cameras and lenses for as long as people want to buy them, but I doubt it has more than another five years in it.

It would be utterly stupid for them commercially to add a fourth mount type at the moment when it's not needed. The only viable options are to keep EF mount for the mirrorless (and then Canon has the problem that older lenses were not designed for mirrorless focusing and may not perform as well on this camera as they do on a DSLR), or to use EF-M (which ensures a new line of modern lenses that Canon can ensure are matched to the requirements and capabilities of the body).

And, unlike EF-S, the APS-C lenses will fit and work perfectly fine (albeit in crop mode) on the new camera. Some of them may even be useable almost to full-frame (I'd predict the EF-M 11-22 from about 15mm upwards could well do that) - which may not be of the same quality as a dedicated FF wide-angle, but would be handy for those who already own the lens.

And, of course, EF-M ff lenses will work fine on the crop cameras.   Which would be great for the stalwarts like the inevitable 50mm f/1.8 or 85mm f/1.8.






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Re: Patent: Canon Wide Angle Zoom for Full Frame Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #42 on: May 26, 2018, 03:26:10 PM »
you don't have to guess or believe. The responsible Canon execs said it publicly in the interview i linked to. Unless you believe, they were not telling the truth.

Sony E-mount and Canon EF-M mount are very well chosen for APS-C. Sony mount was forced into FF service. Canon head designer for EF-M hints in the interview, that EF-M could possibly also be forced into FF servcie, but goes on to state that Canpon has no intention whatsoever and that it would be a very borderline ["crazy" in google translation of interview in Japanese :-) ] and heavily compromised thing to do. 

Already with EF mount Canon consciously chose a much wider throat width (open diameter) than what would be required "as minimum" for FF image circle. I think, they did just the same again for EF-M relative to APS-C image circle (1.6x crop). I have not seen a similar interview/answers from Sony execs, but BELIEVE, their E-Mount was designed for very compact APS-C cameras [NEX back then, later on A#### models] and was really put into "forced FF labor" as an afterthought and under marketing pressure/internet howling re. Sony introducing "all sorts of new lens mounts and abandoning good ole A-mount". 

Based on these observations I also EXPECT/THINK/GUESS/BELIEVE/SPECULATE/CONJECTURE  :-) that Canon will bring a new FF mirrorless mount that will be very generously sized - relative to minimum for FF image circle and perfectly matched to the FFD they choose.

Mount and lens design is one thing Canon has repeatedly demonstrated that they really know how to get things "really right".  :)

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Re: Patent: Canon Wide Angle Zoom for Full Frame Mirrorless Camera
« Reply #42 on: May 26, 2018, 03:26:10 PM »