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Gear Talk => Lenses => Topic started by: Kliphten on October 12, 2012, 02:55:29 PM

Title: B&H Issues!!!
Post by: Kliphten on October 12, 2012, 02:55:29 PM
So I ordered a 70-200mm lens from B&H yesterday with next day air.  They told me it was shipped and that it would be here today.  UPS has tracking info but they say they have never received the package to ship.  Contacted B&H twice today and they said it would be here and that the package shipped!

Has anyone ever had a problem like this?  B&H even told me they called UPS to confirm that they have the package and are shipping it!
Title: Re: B&H Issues!!!
Post by: 2n10 on October 12, 2012, 03:51:38 PM
Most likely UPS misplaced it in their system.  This has happened to me recently with ground packages.  I am surprised on a NDA package though.
Title: Re: B&H Issues!!!
Post by: Kliphten on October 12, 2012, 04:02:46 PM
Well when I contacted UPS, they said they never received the package from B&H.  But if they did and they did misplace it, I'm not sure why B&H told me that they contacted UPS and confirmed it would be delivered today!
Title: Re: B&H Issues!!!
Post by: Dylan777 on October 12, 2012, 04:11:23 PM
Well when I contacted UPS, they said they never received the package from B&H.  But if they did and they did misplace it, I'm not sure why B&H told me that they contacted UPS and confirmed it would be delivered today!

If you dont receive the lens by today, then ask BH for refund on shipping.
Title: Re: B&H Issues!!!
Post by: Kliphten on October 12, 2012, 04:17:09 PM
Definitely will but the bigger concern is that they seemed to have lied.  If they didn't send the package, then they should have told me.  If they did, then they shouldn't have told me they contacted UPS to confirm because when I did, UPS told me they never received the package.  Rep at B&H said UPS confirmed it would be delivered today!

Has this ever happened to anyone else?
Title: Re: B&H Issues!!!
Post by: JaxPhotographer on October 12, 2012, 04:32:17 PM
I have used B&H for a few years and never had any problem with their shipping or accuracy of information. More frequently I have seen the UPS Tracking system miss reporting stages of progress on a shipment. That being said, try and stay calm and diligent with this one. Once it becomes clear where the "problem" is, you can seek resolution with either B&H or UPS.

Hopefully neither is necessary and it shows up as scheduled. :)
Title: Re: B&H Issues!!!
Post by: Kliphten on October 12, 2012, 04:41:10 PM
Well, hopefully it shows up today but it definitely didn't show up as scheduled, which was 10:30a this morning.  I don't mind too much other than I'm not getting any straight information (it seems) from either B&H or UPS which is what really frustrates me.
Title: Re: B&H Issues!!!
Post by: CharlieB on October 12, 2012, 04:54:22 PM
When you ship vast quantities by UPS, the tracking number and label are generated at the shipper's end - but go into the UPS computers from there, without UPS actually having gotten the package.  When UPS does its scheduled pickup, each box is scanned into the UPS system, and from there its forwarded to its destination.

Realize that they COULD be a whole day between shipping entry and UPS getting from B&H.  Once its in UPS hands, the "next day" takes place.  Thats why there is usually a disclaimer about "orders placed by 1pm will be shipped the same day" (or other qualifying disclaimer).

So... if you called after their cutoff time, the order may be IN the system, but the box might not be there yet.

I go thru this daily in our industry (non - photo related)
Title: Re: B&H Issues!!!
Post by: Kliphten on October 12, 2012, 04:57:17 PM
Yeah, I understand that but I placed my order at around 9/10a EST.  Everyone I have talked to their has confirmed that it has been shipped.  Now my understanding is that I should have received it by 10:30a but still have not.  Contacting UPS, they told me they didn't even have the package!  So that is where the frustration sets in.
Title: Re: B&H Issues!!!
Post by: unadog on October 12, 2012, 05:04:38 PM
I shipped 2 packages overnight by Airborne a few years ago from our business, to 2 separate businesses..

The next day they weren't there.  I had my secretary call Airborne, they gave her the names of the people who had signed for the packages, and the times that they had signed - from Airborne.

The next day, the packages actually **did** arrive - 1 day late!  Where in the h* Airborne got those false names and delivery information I have no idea.

Once it is there, you should be able to see the whole history in the UPS system. That should help clarify what **really** happened.

Both companies are legit. Either could be mistaken. Exactly how remains to be seen.

Good luck!
Title: Re: B&H Issues!!!
Post by: curtisnull on October 12, 2012, 05:05:28 PM
When I bought my 300mm f2.8L IS II from B&H back in July, I got next day air UPS. When a tracking number hadn't shown up by evening, I called B&H and they admitted that they had for some unknown reason failed to ship it. Without asking, they immediately refunded my money for shipping and sent it out next day air. Out of the 26 orders I have made with B&H this year, this was the only one that they screwed up on.
Title: Re: B&H Issues!!!
Post by: robbymack on October 12, 2012, 05:11:36 PM
certainly sorry you didn't get your new toy today, and will likely have to wait till the next ups delivery day which is monday.  Shipping issues do happen from time to time, I am sure you can understand that.  I, however, wouldn't get too upset, the good people at BH will make it right. 
Title: Re: B&H Issues!!!
Post by: justsomedude on October 12, 2012, 05:29:10 PM
When you ship vast quantities by UPS, the tracking number and label are generated at the shipper's end - but go into the UPS computers from there, without UPS actually having gotten the package.  When UPS does its scheduled pickup, each box is scanned into the UPS system, and from there its forwarded to its destination.

Actually, this isn't entirely correct.  When you check a tracking number from a shipper, it usually states something vague before UPS actually picks it up.  I often see something along the lines of "shipping information received" when I check the tracking status on orders from Amazon.com, and other mass UPS shippers.

Only when UPS actually has the item in hand does the status get updated to something like "origin scan" or "arrival at sort facility".  Once those status tags have been added, you know that the package is indeed under UPS control.  If it still states "shipping information received," you may have cause for concern.  That means UPS never scanned the label.

But as others have posted, this may not be B&H's fault.  With many people moving to online ordering, outfits like FedEx and UPS are getting hammered.  I've often times seen my "estimated delivery date" pushed back or delayed a day or two.  It's not often, but I'd say for every 50 orders it happens once or twice.  That's just part of mail order these days; sometimes things just get lost in the sort.
Title: Re: B&H Issues!!!
Post by: Kliphten on October 12, 2012, 05:46:58 PM
Thanks for all of your input!  Totally appreciated.

One question though, is why would B&H tell me they contacted UPS and say that UPS confirmed it would be shipped today?  When I contacted UPS, they said they couldn't confirm they even had the package?  Are there some levels within UPS that have access to info that others don't?  I've saved the transcript from B&H and have re-read it over and over and that's what the rep said.
Title: Re: B&H Issues!!!
Post by: Kliphten on October 12, 2012, 05:49:41 PM
Here is part of the chat transcript with B&H:

CF: When I placed the order I was told it would be shipped immediately and would be here by today.
SR: According to UPS the package will be delivered today.
CF: Do you have a time?
CF: The tracking info I have has no info.
SR: The package should be delivered anytime soon, Please let us know when it was delivered so that we can file a claim with UPS
CF: Okay, will do. How come you said it would be delivered on Monday?
CF: But now it will be delivered soon?
SR: Because at first I thought since it was shipped late last night they didn't process it, but then i contacted them and they confirmed that it was processed and will be delivered today.
Title: Re: B&H Issues!!!
Post by: Sitting Elf on October 12, 2012, 05:50:20 PM
B&H probably called their local New York UPS point who had the box.  The main tracking system may not have received the number.

I have had this happen in the past, and the panicky feeling is always unpleasant... but surprisingly, the shipment has always shown up regardless, unless delayed by weather or a terrorist attack!

I'd sit tight until the latest delivery time this evening. THEN if it doesn't show up, B&H will certainly backtrack. I've never had an issue with B&H and trust them implicitly. They DON'T lie!
Title: Re: B&H Issues!!!
Post by: cliffwang on October 12, 2012, 06:05:22 PM
Most likely UPS's problem.  I have similar experiences and I eventually received the package.  I guess the package was not scanned before it left the UPS store.
Title: Re: B&H Issues!!!
Post by: Kliphten on October 12, 2012, 06:21:56 PM
If it wasn't scanned, could it still be possible that it was shipped?  Or does it have to be scanned before it ships?  I'm still curious as to how someone at UPS told B&H they had the package and it would be shipped today.
Title: Re: B&H Issues!!!
Post by: nebugeater on October 12, 2012, 07:06:49 PM
It is not clear to me  but do you have the tracking number and checked with that yourself?
Title: Re: B&H Issues!!!
Post by: Drizzt321 on October 12, 2012, 07:15:45 PM
Sometimes I've found that UPS won't have ANY information on a tracking number (at least in the online system) while they have actually picked it up, and it's on it's way. It can take a day or so sometimes for the online system to get updated. By then, it'll either be set at "out for delivery", or in my hand, or estimated delivery on the date I expect.
Title: Re: B&H Issues!!!
Post by: Sitting Elf on October 12, 2012, 07:22:32 PM
I sympathize with the OP because regardless of whether it will arrive today, a lens shipment from B&H will almost assuredly require a signature for delivery. Therefore, not knowing the exact delivery date if it doesn't make it today can be a problem because he has to be available for the delivery, unless someone else is always at the shipping location.

Apple, for example, requires a signature for even the cheapest accessories, and I always have to print and fill out a release if I'm not going to be at home. Pain in the rear end!
Title: Re: B&H Issues!!!
Post by: Kliphten on October 12, 2012, 07:28:41 PM
I sympathize with the OP because regardless of whether it will arrive today, a lens shipment from B&H will almost assuredly require a signature for delivery. Therefore, not knowing the exact delivery date if it doesn't make it today can be a problem because he has to be available for the delivery, unless someone else is always at the shipping location.

Apple, for example, requires a signature for even the cheapest accessories, and I always have to print and fill out a release if I'm not going to be at home. Pain in the rear end!

Exactly!  I've been waiting all day and while I don't mind whether it comes today or not, what I do mind is not having a clear answer as to where it is or when it will arrive!
Title: Re: B&H Issues!!!
Post by: Kliphten on October 12, 2012, 07:44:18 PM
Well, tracking has finally updated!  Lens is still in New York!  The only conclusion I can come up with is that B&H didn't get the package out yesterday and lied to me today about it being sent out!  I asked them if it was sent yesterday, twice, and both times they said it was!  Very disappointing...
Title: Re: B&H Issues!!!
Post by: Mt Spokane Photography on October 12, 2012, 07:53:23 PM
Well, tracking has finally updated!  Lens is still in New York!  The only conclusion I can come up with is that B&H didn't get the package out yesterday and lied to me today about it being sent out!  I asked them if it was sent yesterday, twice, and both times they said it was!  Very disappointing...
What pickup time does it say on the tracking page?  B&H can put it out for UPS, but, until the UPS truck gets back to the terminal, unloads, and scans packages, the time might not be set.  If the UPS truck breaks down or gets delayed, that can happen.
I ship by UPS and occasionally this happens. 
Ask for a refund of shipping after the item arrives.
Title: Re: B&H Issues!!!
Post by: Kliphten on October 12, 2012, 09:17:34 PM
Says Order Processed: Ready for UPS 10/11/2012 at around 11p.
Origin Scan around 7:30p today.
Departure Scan around 8:45p today.

Well, I'm glad to know where it is but hugely disappointed in having to wait all day because of what B&H told me.  They'll definitely be hearing from me on Sunday.
Title: Re: B&H Issues!!!
Post by: Mt Spokane Photography on October 12, 2012, 09:31:57 PM
Says Order Processed: Ready for UPS 10/11/2012 at around 11p.
Origin Scan around 7:30p today.
Departure Scan around 8:45p today.

Well, I'm glad to know where it is but hugely disappointed in having to wait all day because of what B&H told me.  They'll definitely be hearing from me on Sunday.
It sounds like UPS issue.  B&H loads them into a empty trailer which UPS picks up every 2-4 hours.  Apparently, UPS either missed picking up the trailer or left it sitting for a day.
Whatever the reason, its disappointing.
Contact Henry Posner of B&H and ask him for help.  He is their Goodwill Ambassador and will do anything he can.
 e-mail henryp[at]bhphoto.com  Henry is pretty good at helping out.
 
Title: Re: B&H Issues!!!
Post by: Kliphten on October 12, 2012, 09:47:56 PM
Says Order Processed: Ready for UPS 10/11/2012 at around 11p.
Origin Scan around 7:30p today.
Departure Scan around 8:45p today.

Well, I'm glad to know where it is but hugely disappointed in having to wait all day because of what B&H told me.  They'll definitely be hearing from me on Sunday.
It sounds like UPS issue.  B&H loads them into a empty trailer which UPS picks up every 2-4 hours.  Apparently, UPS either missed picking up the trailer or left it sitting for a day.
Whatever the reason, its disappointing.
Contact Henry Posner of B&H and ask him for help.  He is their Goodwill Ambassador and will do anything he can.
 e-mail henryp[at]bhphoto.com  Henry is pretty good at helping out.

Thanks! Will definitely shoot him an email.
Title: Re: B&H Issues!!!
Post by: comsense on October 13, 2012, 05:38:12 PM
Says Order Processed: Ready for UPS 10/11/2012 at around 11p.
Origin Scan around 7:30p today.
Departure Scan around 8:45p today.

Well, I'm glad to know where it is but hugely disappointed in having to wait all day because of what B&H told me.  They'll definitely be hearing from me on Sunday.
It sounds like UPS issue.  B&H loads them into a empty trailer which UPS picks up every 2-4 hours.  Apparently, UPS either missed picking up the trailer or left it sitting for a day.
Whatever the reason, its disappointing.
Contact Henry Posner of B&H and ask him for help.  He is their Goodwill Ambassador and will do anything he can.
 e-mail henryp[at]bhphoto.com  Henry is pretty good at helping out.

Thanks! Will definitely shoot him an email.
UPS to be blamed for sure. It has happened to me twice. Last time, I confirmed with UPS directly after talking to Apple and they told me same thing - hang on at your home to receive (signature delivery); their system shows its on delivery truck and would be delivered for SURE today by 7 PM. What's worse, UPS CSR made me wait till 9 PM saying trucks sometime finish deliveries up to 9:00 PM. All the while tracking showed package was in LA and indeed it was in LA being shuttled around to different warehouses for the free tour of city. I don't know what *&%$ information UPS CSR reps had as in the end automated tracking was more reliable. And they pass on the same info to clients (Apple in my case). Obviously, I was fuming. However, Apple rewarded me sufficiently to bring smile back on my face even though it was clearly UPS's fault.
Title: Re: B&H Issues!!!
Post by: Kliphten on October 13, 2012, 07:25:16 PM
Says Order Processed: Ready for UPS 10/11/2012 at around 11p.
Origin Scan around 7:30p today.
Departure Scan around 8:45p today.

Well, I'm glad to know where it is but hugely disappointed in having to wait all day because of what B&H told me.  They'll definitely be hearing from me on Sunday.
It sounds like UPS issue.  B&H loads them into a empty trailer which UPS picks up every 2-4 hours.  Apparently, UPS either missed picking up the trailer or left it sitting for a day.
Whatever the reason, its disappointing.
Contact Henry Posner of B&H and ask him for help.  He is their Goodwill Ambassador and will do anything he can.
 e-mail henryp[at]bhphoto.com  Henry is pretty good at helping out.

Thanks! Will definitely shoot him an email.
UPS to be blamed for sure. It has happened to me twice. Last time, I confirmed with UPS directly after talking to Apple and they told me same thing - hang on at your home to receive (signature delivery); their system shows its on delivery truck and would be delivered for SURE today by 7 PM. What's worse, UPS CSR made me wait till 9 PM saying trucks sometime finish deliveries up to 9:00 PM. All the while tracking showed package was in LA and indeed it was in LA being shuttled around to different warehouses for the free tour of city. I don't know what *&%$ information UPS CSR reps had as in the end automated tracking was more reliable. And they pass on the same info to clients (Apple in my case). Obviously, I was fuming. However, Apple rewarded me sufficiently to bring smile back on my face even though it was clearly UPS's fault.

Sorry to hear that.  I think in this case, though, it was B&Hs fault.  They were the ones that told me it was shipped and would be delivered.  UPS told me they didn't have the package and didn't know where it was.  Sure, they could have  had it but "misplaced" it but I just can't assume that.  What I do know is that B&H told me it was shipped and would be delivered and that they spoke with UPS to confirm.
Title: Re: B&H Issues!!!
Post by: CharlieB on October 13, 2012, 08:50:40 PM
If its any consolation - I just got two waterproof Fuji cameras from Amazon.

Shipped by Amazon, not 3rd party.  Amazon handed off to FedEx.

FedEx handed off to the US Post Office.   Tracking on FedEx says out for delivery.

No delivery, I had folks at the house, waiting for the package.  No slip left... no nothing.

Finally - at 10pm, FedEx reports "Delivery Attempt Made".

So, I call FedEx.  They say, sorry call the Post Office.  Post Office says... Sorry, call FedEx.

I go to the local Post Office.  Guy at the counter takes the info, says it ought to be in the back.  He looks for about half an hour.  Nope.  No clue where it is.   Then he says... they're only supposed to make one delivery attempt, but "it may have gone back out".   Ok, so we wait again.  Nothing.  Next day, I go back to the Post Office.  Same guy looks again.  Nothing.  So I ask... "is it lost".  No, its not lost, since its still in their system.  He says, don't file a claim, give it another day.   Went home, and its raining really hard at that point.   Cats go nuts at the front.  I look out.  Nothing, no vehicle.  Open the door, and stuffed down inside my bougainvillaea bush (thorns!) is an Amazon box... soaked.    Inside,  I open the box and it has OBVIOUSLY been tampered with.  First off, an Amazon box is a sort of fold up affair that doesn't even have tape all the way around it.  You can slide out a "wing" and get to the contents.  In fact, small contents can fall out.   So I'm going thru things... one memory card had been opened, and inserted into the one camera, as also its battery.  Hang tag gone.  Sticker in the box with empty battery plastic bag.  There was one shot on the memory card - which had been erased, but ... was recoverable.   Shot of the inside of the Post Office!   

I probably have some sort of case, but I thought for a second... I got the cameras, and they're disposable to me anyway.  Not worth me losing more money taking off from work to go fight the Post Office.
Title: Re: B&H Issues!!!
Post by: cpsico on October 13, 2012, 10:05:29 PM
Number one if the shipper can't provide a tracking number it's not shipped, ups tracks from pick up to delivery and every point in between. Same with fed ex, no tracking number, it's the shipper who is not to be taken at their word
Title: Re: B&H Issues!!!
Post by: comsense on October 14, 2012, 11:19:14 AM

Sorry to hear that.  I think in this case, though, it was B&Hs fault.  They were the ones that told me it was shipped and would be delivered.  UPS told me they didn't have the package and didn't know where it was.  Sure, they could have  had it but "misplaced" it but I just can't assume that.  What I do know is that B&H told me it was shipped and would be delivered and that they spoke with UPS to confirm.
Sorry, I did not clarify well. UPS CS gave me conflicting reports. Local driver and people with just outside access were (yes, you call them and they just read what you see on web; different topic but infuriating none the less) insisting the package is in LA, as shown in web tracking. It was these people with extra internal information (level 2, supervisors etc) who were insisting it will be delivered today and is on delivery truck. Apple CSR (and I am sure B&H too) communicates with these guys and told me the same thing. Looks like local driver and web tracking (and CSR reps reading from it) were right, it was higher ups who were wrong. However, unlike you I don't believe UPS was lying to me. They are just inefficient and have f***** up internal communication.

Title: Re: B&H Issues!!!
Post by: comsense on October 14, 2012, 11:38:08 AM
If its any consolation - I just got two waterproof Fuji cameras from Amazon.

Inside,  I open the box and it has OBVIOUSLY been tampered with.  First off, an Amazon box is a sort of fold up affair that doesn't even have tape all the way around it.  You can slide out a "wing" and get to the contents.  In fact, small contents can fall out.   So I'm going thru things... one memory card had been opened, and inserted into the one camera, as also its battery.  Hang tag gone.  Sticker in the box with empty battery plastic bag.  There was one shot on the memory card - which had been erased, but ... was recoverable.   Shot of the inside of the Post Office!   

Ah, you have proof to nail USPS down then......
Otherwise, amazon is also notorious for shipping returned (and sometimes used and visibly abused) merchandise. Once, I had to go through three return cycles to get something that I was almost convinced was brand new (their price was so good that I put up with the hassle). With surge of such experiences in recent years, I have just stopped buying anything sensitive like optics from Amazon (esp. Since price is always matched by big camera retailers).
In my case the package was not tempered in any way, so I don't think someone working at shipper was playing with them like in your case............,
Title: Re: B&H Issues!!!
Post by: CharlieB on October 14, 2012, 01:35:21 PM
There were no people in the picture.  But, I know what a picture of green brick walls, USPS stickers on shelves and carts, and overhead catwalks with peep-slits and visors look like, and I know where they're found.

My guess, someone was going to make themselves a present.  I was on it, and insistent, and somebody got looked at closely, so the package got "unlost" rapidly.   For all I know, "someone" may have "delivered" the package in non-USPO uniform, and non-USPO vehicle, on non-USPO time, just to avoid any problem.  They did not know enough to reformat the card.

I'll confess... hehehe... when I saw the card in the camera, I thought there was a possibility of something "juicy"... or really just curious as to why things were, as they were.  Thats what got me to peep the card and unerase the file.   

I got two cameras, one silver for the GF, and one black for moi.  Use - on motorcycle.  Don't care if they get wet, get knocked about, get abused.  Really don't care for the best image quality.  The cameras primary purpose - survive and make reasonably ok snapshots.  The Fuji's have lousy detail resolution due to anti-noise softening, but have above average color and contrast, will shoot in B&W mode without fiddling, and... important... have LCD's you can actually see in daylight, with a "boost" LCD button for momentary full brightness mode if needed.

That chapter is over... move on.  Sorry to drift the OP's thread a bit.   Just... he's not alone.  Shipping mysteries... remain such for the most part, in my experience.
Title: Re: B&H Issues!!!
Post by: Mt Spokane Photography on October 14, 2012, 06:21:21 PM
There were no people in the picture.  But, I know what a picture of green brick walls, USPS stickers on shelves and carts, and overhead catwalks with peep-slits and visors look like, and I know where they're found.

My guess, someone was going to make themselves a present.  I was on it, and insistent, and somebody got looked at closely, so the package got "unlost" rapidly.   For all I know, "someone" may have "delivered" the package in non-USPO uniform, and non-USPO vehicle, on non-USPO time, just to avoid any problem.  They did not know enough to reformat the card.

I'll confess... hehehe... when I saw the card in the camera, I thought there was a possibility of something "juicy"... or really just curious as to why things were, as they were.  Thats what got me to peep the card and unerase the file.   

I got two cameras, one silver for the GF, and one black for moi.  Use - on motorcycle.  Don't care if they get wet, get knocked about, get abused.  Really don't care for the best image quality.  The cameras primary purpose - survive and make reasonably ok snapshots.  The Fuji's have lousy detail resolution due to anti-noise softening, but have above average color and contrast, will shoot in B&W mode without fiddling, and... important... have LCD's you can actually see in daylight, with a "boost" LCD button for momentary full brightness mode if needed.

That chapter is over... move on.  Sorry to drift the OP's thread a bit.   Just... he's not alone.  Shipping mysteries... remain such for the most part, in my experience.
File a complaint with the postal inspector, they are very keen to catch whoever is doing it.  They have a lot of resources, including surveillance photos, but they can't look at every one.  Your info will tip them off to time and place.  If you do not report it, then the perp will keep right on doing it.
Title: Re: B&H Issues!!!
Post by: neuroanatomist on October 15, 2012, 01:28:41 PM
File a complaint with the postal inspector, they are very keen to catch whoever is doing it.  They have a lot of resources, including surveillance photos, but they can't look at every one.  Your info will tip them off to time and place.  If you do not report it, then the perp will keep right on doing it.

+1.  Maybe the next time, it will be something you value more, and/or need on time for a shoot.
Title: Re: B&H Issues!!!
Post by: Dylan777 on October 16, 2012, 09:12:08 AM
I ordered compact flash card and card reader from BH about a week ago. Yesterday, Oct 15th around 7:30AM, I received an email from BH indicated my order has been shipped - with tracking number.

Today, Oct 16th, I still can't track the order. :(

Wonder if this is UPS or BH issue????
Title: Re: B&H Issues!!!
Post by: comsense on October 16, 2012, 11:00:44 AM
To Dylan:
Hard to say. Usually, all big retailers ship the item same day as their shipped email. However, your tracking # indicates its not a regular UPS shipment. It's one on those things where the end part of shipment is carried by USPS (FedEx has it too). It has horrible tracking but to my surprise delivered faster than UPS ground (of course I have just one data point to fit to a line in this case). I hope this helps.......