canon rumors FORUM

Gear Talk => Canon General => Topic started by: Canon Rumors on October 26, 2012, 11:20:02 AM

Title: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: Canon Rumors on October 26, 2012, 11:20:02 AM

Profits & Revenue Down

Canon’s Q3, 2012 results have been announced and the news is horrible. Canon only had revenue of $10.3 billion and an operating profit of $908 million.


What’s at fault? Well, according to Canon: “negative impact of economic deterioration” in China and Europe. As always, the yen was blamed as well.


The fact that DSLR sales fell may have played a role, as well as the printer business and business-to-business numbers falling.


Are things going to get better in Q4? Not likely, so they may not make a billion dollars a quarter until 2013 when the EF 200-400 f/4L IS 1.4x is on the market at $10,000 a pop.


Source: [EG]


cr


 


Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: vuilang on October 26, 2012, 11:35:45 AM
ouch...
not even 1/10 of revenue?

Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: Lee Jay on October 26, 2012, 11:37:50 AM
Please read the !@#$% report!

http://www.canon.com/ir/results/2012/rslt2012q3e.pdf (http://www.canon.com/ir/results/2012/rslt2012q3e.pdf)

"Demand for interchangeable-lens digital cameras continued to realize robust growth in all regions while the market for compact digital cameras shrunk due to the stagnation of the global economy."

"Within the Imaging System Business Unit, despite efforts to achieve sales growth with the competitively priced EOS Digital Rebel series along with the EOS 5D Mark III and EOS 60D advanced-amateur models, sales volumes of interchangeable-lens digital cameras decreased from the year-ago period due to a delayed new-product launch."
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: Dylan777 on October 26, 2012, 11:43:48 AM
The revenue will go up if Canon changes the price tag on these products:

1. 5D III to $2999
2. 24-70 II to $1900
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: thien135 on October 26, 2012, 11:44:13 AM
Massive discount on cameras (like 5d3) and lens (24-70 L II will boost sale past 1 billion   ::).....or not
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: thien135 on October 26, 2012, 11:45:13 AM
Dylan and I got the same idea. woot
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: Skulker on October 26, 2012, 11:45:21 AM
only $908 Million pounds profit in a quater.

Hardly worth getting out of bed for. Rubbish its only about $10 Million a day, don't know why they bother.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: fotoray on October 26, 2012, 11:48:31 AM
Poor Baby
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: jcollett on October 26, 2012, 11:51:00 AM
I wish Canon would take note of what foreign car manufactures did; diversify their manufacturing base to their primary purchasing markets like the good 'ol US of A.  I sincerely doubt that a US manufactured camera or lens will cost more to American customers plus they would get the cred of MADE IN THE USA.  Many people will purchase or switch based upon this fact alone.  It helped steer my purchase of a Volkswagen Passat; it was manufactured in Tennessee.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: RLPhoto on October 26, 2012, 11:51:09 AM
The cause? A series Underwhelming products, Inflated Pricing, And a series of restrictions based on profit rather than R&D. IE: 1Dx F/8 focusing.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: Sunnystate on October 26, 2012, 11:57:30 AM
What a SHOCK!
Its just the beginning, or maybe they will start refreshing the entire product line just about soon, like next January?
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: vuilang on October 26, 2012, 11:57:52 AM
I wish Canon would take note of what foreign car manufactures did; diversify their manufacturing base to their primary purchasing markets like the good 'ol US of A.  I sincerely doubt that a US manufactured camera or lens will cost more to American customers plus they would get the cred of MADE IN THE USA.  Many people will purchase or switch based upon this fact alone.  It helped steer my purchase of a Volkswagen Passat; it was manufactured in Tennessee.
Made in USA  is probably better than everywhere else but Germany or Japan :)
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: RC on October 26, 2012, 11:58:00 AM
The revenue will go up if Canon changes the price tag on these products:

1. 5D III to $2999
2. 24-70 II to $1900
Yip, I'll order a 5D3 when it drops below 3k

Edit:  I'm talking Amazon, B&H or Adorama type dealers, not questionable ebay sellers
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: neuroanatomist on October 26, 2012, 12:03:19 PM
...maybe they will start refreshing the entire product line just about soon, like next January?

In general, reduced revenue means cuts...and often, R&D is one of the first cuts to be made.  Sad, but true. 
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: Mt Spokane Photography on October 26, 2012, 12:06:12 PM
If you think Canon is hurting, the others are in much worse shape.
 Check out Nikon's  SONY's huge plummet in sales (78%).  They lost $15 million, so any profit at all would look good to them.
Nikon profit is down 48%, almost all in imaging products, their business products only lost a little.
Right now, the big loser is Sony, followed by Nikon.  The entire industry is in a tailspin. 
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: jrista on October 26, 2012, 12:22:59 PM
If you think Canon is hurting, the others are in much worse shape.
 Check out Nikon's huge plummet in sales (78%).  And Sony lost $15 million, so any profit at all would look good to them.

Aye, kind of a sad state of affairs for the industry, not just Canon. Competition among these competitors is a very good thing, but I guess I'm a little bummed Canon came out so good relatively speaking...probably means they won't compete as hard as they might otherwise have if they lost more business to Nikon.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: Tammy on October 26, 2012, 12:23:53 PM
Nikon dipped 78% in total revenue? or SLR/camera related?
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: ablearcher on October 26, 2012, 12:23:58 PM
LMAO. Some time ago I stated on this forum that Canon's pricing for 5DMKIII was fundamentally wrong. Some disagreed.  I'll say it again: a quick cash grab from early adopters is not a good strategy in the long run. Not with this product and not in this market. This year could be different for Canon's dslr sales if their marketing folks paid attention to what was happening (and still happening) on today's market. Fans can be loyal, but they are not necessarily dumb. (I'm obviously not talking about the pros who's 5DMKIIIs made a ton of $$ for them since purchase.)

Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: 2n10 on October 26, 2012, 12:25:20 PM
Can you say global economic slowdown, doodoo occurs.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: neuroanatomist on October 26, 2012, 12:33:33 PM
LMAO. Some time ago I stated on this forum that Canon's pricing for 5DMKIII was fundamentally wrong. Some disagreed.  I'll say it again: a quick cash grab from early adopters is not a good strategy in the long run.

Right, that's what did it...too high a price (in your opinion) on one product in their portfolio.  LMAO, indeed.  I rather think the situation is slightly more complex...
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: Mt Spokane Photography on October 26, 2012, 12:39:05 PM
Nikon dipped 78% in total revenue? or SLR/camera related?

Sorry, I quoted the Sony figure, Nikon Profit was down 48.6%, Sony did not report a drop in profit by %, just in sales.
Virtually all of the drop was in imaging products, but then, thats most of their business. This was for the quarter ending june 30, a new report is expected soon.  expect worse figures.
http://www.nikon.com/about/ir/ir_library/result/index.htm (http://www.nikon.com/about/ir/ir_library/result/index.htm)
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: ablearcher on October 26, 2012, 12:45:52 PM
  I rather think the situation is slightly more complex...
I never said that pricing of 5DMKIII was the only contributing factor. This is simply one of the most obvious ones in terms of dslr market.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: Chosenbydestiny on October 26, 2012, 12:54:16 PM
I think this year's tsunami crisis in Japan and the fact it heavily impacted r&d and production might have helped with these companies' losses...
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: Daniel Flather on October 26, 2012, 12:55:58 PM
This is good, a hungry dogs forgets he has fleas.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: keithfullermusic on October 26, 2012, 12:56:12 PM
everyone thinks that they are a business expert all of a sudden now that these numbers came out.

one of the biggest problems is that Canon is based in a country whose currency is rising compared to the markets where they sell products.  that means that even if they sold the exact same amount of everything, and spent the exact same amount they would still pull in less revenue and less profit.  on top of that, the world economy is down which means less disposable for most consumers and less business to business sales.  together, that equals less sales.  to top it all off, smartphones are completely eating up the point and shoot market.

people - canon is not taking huge hits because you think the new 5d cost too much.  its not because you think the 24-70 costs too much.  these prices are very equal to what their predecessors were in terms of japanese currency - but now the rest of the world's is worth less compared to what it was, so things cost more.  also, canon sells a lot more than just 5Diii's and 24-70 ii's...
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: ablearcher on October 26, 2012, 12:56:53 PM
..too high a price (in your opinion)
In just my opinion? Seriously? With all the price fluctuations up to $750 (and even more if you consider Canadian prices) in just a few months after the release? With D800  $3K price at release? Any idea why there are no similar price drops on D800?

So $3800 Canadian or even $3500 US pricing was reasonable in your opinion?

Neuro, I respect your posts on this forum and your knowledge, but I struggle to understand you on this one.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: rambarra on October 26, 2012, 01:01:43 PM
everyone thinks that they are a business expert all of a sudden now that these numbers came out.

one of the biggest problems is that Canon is based in a country whose currency is rising compared to the markets where they sell products.  that means that even if they sold the exact same amount of everything, and spent the exact same amount they would still pull in less revenue and less profit.  on top of that, the world economy is down which means less disposable for most consumers and less business to business sales.  together, that equals less sales.  to top it all off, smartphones are completely eating up the point and shoot market.

people - canon is not taking huge hits because you think the new 5d cost too much.  its not because you think the 24-70 costs too much.  these prices are very equal to what their predecessors were in terms of japanese currency - but now the rest of the world's is worth less compared to what it was, so things cost more.  also, canon sells a lot more than just 5Diii's and 24-70 ii's...

this
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: marekjoz on October 26, 2012, 01:02:07 PM
So... nobody's switching to Nikon because of that?
:D
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: Nishi Drew on October 26, 2012, 01:02:55 PM
I think this year's tsunami crisis in Japan and the fact it heavily impacted r&d and production might have helped with these companies' losses...

You realize the tsunami (earthwuake + nuclear disaster) was well over a year ago right? It did do harm but when so much is made in China/Taiwan no real hits were taken.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: trowski on October 26, 2012, 01:04:41 PM
Another thing to remember is that cameras don't even account for 50% of Canon's revenue. They actually make more money from printers. Therefore I don't think any slightly reduced sales of the 5DIII or 24-70mm II due to price would significantly reduce their overall revenue or profit. Compared to the line of Rebels, the 5DIII and 1DX are low-volume products. Part of the reason for the very high prices on things like the 5DIII, 1DX, and line of super-telephotos is to make up for low-volume.

I would also say the slow in sales of point-and-shoot cameras has a lot to do with the improvement of smartphone cameras. While I'm sure the economy is playing a role in decreased sales, basic point-and-shoot cameras are largely on their way out.

Plus there's the whole yen vs. dollar issue, which certainly doesn't help them keep prices low in the U.S. and other places to help increase sales.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: DB on October 26, 2012, 01:05:47 PM
...maybe they will start refreshing the entire product line just about soon, like next January?

In general, reduced revenue means cuts...and often, R&D is one of the first cuts to be made.  Sad, but true.

+1 Canon set their R&D budget 'top-down' (as a % of net sales) and not 'bottom-up' (what they need to spend for new products), so expect to see some possible trimming of the R&D allocation
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: marekjoz on October 26, 2012, 01:07:50 PM
...maybe they will start refreshing the entire product line just about soon, like next January?

In general, reduced revenue means cuts...and often, R&D is one of the first cuts to be made.  Sad, but true.

+1 Canon set their R&D budget 'top-down' (as a % of net sales) and not 'bottom-up' (what they need to spend for new products), so expect to see some possible trimming of the R&D allocation

Hopefully it could push them to send to market stuff they have ready on their shelves in R&D department.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: cbphoto on October 26, 2012, 01:11:07 PM
Quote
"Demand for interchangeable-lens digital cameras continued to realize robust growth in all regions while the market for compact digital cameras shrunk due to the stagnation of the global economy."

Sales of compact digital cameras will continue to shrink because of cell phone cameras & apps.

I've owned three Canon point & shoot cameras, but will probably never buy another one. For fun & easy, I use my cell phone and a couple apps to shoot, enhance and upload for family & friends to see. The last thing I want to do on vacation is saddle myself to a computer for post production on point & shoot images. To me, it's a no-brainer.

An image taken on vacation & uploaded within minutes after capture. And minutes before a nice swim!
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: atompate on October 26, 2012, 01:11:38 PM
Sure the high end products price point has been raised and people are pissed but I think its more then that. I see a huge problem for canon nikon etc.. is loosing the point and shoot market. Average Joe's are slowly using their smartphones now and dont even buy film or P&S anymore. The company's are probably trying to make revenue like years in the past so they raise DSLR and high end products prices.

Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: DB on October 26, 2012, 01:12:52 PM
Canon do not tell us how they allocate the R&D budget, but what we do know is that it has fallen as % of net sales from 11.5% to 8.5% over the last 3-4 years, but whether or not Consumer Division saw bigger cuts, whilst Industrial Division experienced rises in R&D spend, we do not know.

Canon still outspends Nikon - in % terms (again we do not know if this is also true on DSLR's , just as a company)
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: jrista on October 26, 2012, 01:14:19 PM
  I rather think the situation is slightly more complex...
I never said that pricing of 5DMKIII was the only contributing factor. This is simply one of the most obvious ones in terms of dslr market.

You do realize that the sales of the 5D III have been stellar DESPITE the price, right? That seems to indicate to me that the market can certainly bear the $3500 price tag, and that people are eager to buy that particular camera.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: DB on October 26, 2012, 01:16:59 PM
...maybe they will start refreshing the entire product line just about soon, like next January?

In general, reduced revenue means cuts...and often, R&D is one of the first cuts to be made.  Sad, but true.

+1 Canon set their R&D budget 'top-down' (as a % of net sales) and not 'bottom-up' (what they need to spend for new products), so expect to see some possible trimming of the R&D allocation

Hopefully it could push them to send to market stuff they have ready on their shelves in R&D department.

Excellent point. They don't call Consumer Electronics the 'FMCG Sector' (fast moving consumer goods) for nothing -> get new products out the door quicker, then the faster they sell...the more revenue that allows for more R&D spend on new improved products and so on.  I guess this is why Apple Inc. constantly update their product lines e.g. iPad4 announced just months after iPad3
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: mws on October 26, 2012, 01:17:06 PM
I should have bought that calculator mouse!
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: Darkmatter on October 26, 2012, 01:20:00 PM
Won't printer sales continue to drop until it's at the point where most sales will just be to other companies? I don't have a really up to date printer because I hardly ever use it but hasn't the tech already gotten to the point almost where most consumer printers can do most everything a regular person will want of it? There doesn't seem to have been any real major jump in printer tech in quite a long time already. I can't see that problem getting any better as time goes on.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: neuroanatomist on October 26, 2012, 01:20:46 PM
Any idea why there are no similar price drops on D800?

So $3800 Canadian or even $3500 US pricing was reasonable in your opinion?

Neuro, I respect your posts on this forum and your knowledge, but I struggle to understand you on this one.

Probably because no one had the D800 in stock, and low supply means high demand which means no market drive for a lower price.

I thought $3500 was not unreasonable.  The IQ of a 5DII (already excellent) coupled with the AF system of a camera costing >$3K more, plus 6 fps shooting speed?  That's a powerful combination.  If I had any interest in purchasing a 5DIII, would I want it to be cheaper?  Of course.  But if I had been interested in purchasing a 5DIII, the $3500 price would not have affected my decision.  Amortized over a 3 year life of the camera, $500 becomes something like 46¢ per day.  My morning coffee cost 10 times that.  Just sayin'.

In general, reduced revenue means cuts...and often, R&D is one of the first cuts to be made.  Sad, but true.
well a malicious guy could say:  i have not seen much sensor development in the past 4 years.... so what?

Are you that guy?  Wasting no time in slipping back to old ways, it seems...  Please do try to properly attribute your quotes, though.  FWIW, I am not referring specifically to Canon or the dSLR industry here, but more generally to companies with R&D spending across the board. 
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: PackLight on October 26, 2012, 01:22:48 PM
Some of those posting on this thread are very good photographers.
As financial analyst they leave much to be desired.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: Mt Spokane Photography on October 26, 2012, 01:28:12 PM
i bought a new sony TV this year and new pioneer audio gear.

i wonder why i did not notice the strong YEN on these buys....
Have you checked Sony's financial report?  It might give you a hint.  They are losing money hand over fist due to lowering prices to compete with South Korea.  You got your TV below cost.  Hopefully, Sony will still be in business if it needs repair.  The first thing Sony has dropped when times were tough was customer service, and for them, times are very tough.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: daniel_charms on October 26, 2012, 01:30:48 PM

In general, reduced revenue means cuts...and often, R&D is one of the first cuts to be made.  Sad, but true.

well a malicious guy could say:  i have not seen much sensor development in the past 4 years.... so what?

On the subject of R&D, check out the Chipworks report on full-frame DSLR camera sensors (http://www.chipworks.com/blog/technologyblog/2012/10/24/full-frame-dslr-cameras-canon-stays-the-course/) from a few days ago. Canon is basically still using the same fabrication technology for their sensors that they used in the 5DC, while their competitors have long moved on, so you could say that there hasn't been much sensor development in the past 7 years. They do have newer technology in store, comparable to what Sony and Nikon are using, but they've still yet to make the move. What this means in this context is that if Canon does cut R&D costs for sensors as a result of reduced profits, it might not be until another four to five years before they start to see any major negative effects.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: Darkmatter on October 26, 2012, 01:31:35 PM
Dropping CS is always the easiest way to go since your costumers can't bitch at you if they can't get ahold of you...
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: LSV on October 26, 2012, 01:39:45 PM
It's probably a tangent to this thread, but a friend with deep roots in Japan explained to me the powers behind companies like Canon and Nikon. In Japan, they have zaibatsu which roughly translates to conglomerates and Nikon is backed up by a giant, Mitsubishi. They started several hundred years ago as trading companies and provided finance for big manufacturing companies later. They are the equivalent of the Rockfellers and JP Morgans.  There are four or five large ones, despite attempts to disassemble them after the second world war. The largest being Mitsubishi, Mitsui, Sumitomo and others.

Nikon belongs to the Mitsubishi group. But, surprisingly, both Sony and Canon belongs to the Mitsui group...which would have made the tie up between Sony and Canon more natural than the current Nikon/Sony arrangement.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: Mt Spokane Photography on October 26, 2012, 01:45:29 PM
My morning coffee cost 10 times that.  Just sayin'.

Keep buying that coffee.  My daughter works at Starbucks headquarters in Seattle, and every cup of coffee helps keep her job ;)
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: marekjoz on October 26, 2012, 01:46:34 PM

In general, reduced revenue means cuts...and often, R&D is one of the first cuts to be made.  Sad, but true.

well a malicious guy could say:  i have not seen much sensor development in the past 4 years.... so what?

On the subject of R&D, check out the Chipworks report on full-frame DSLR camera sensors (http://www.chipworks.com/blog/technologyblog/2012/10/24/full-frame-dslr-cameras-canon-stays-the-course/) from a few days ago. Canon is basically still using the same fabrication technology for their sensors that they used in the 5DC, while their competitors have long moved on, so you could say that there hasn't been much sensor development in the past 7 years.
(...)

It's maybe long enough for guys in Sony to change their employer? Seven years is quite long to think about a change :D
Patents are one thing, but without a good brain fighting against patents is senseless. I still don't know where all those Canon's patents are located, if they are so behind in sesnor technology?
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: vab3 on October 26, 2012, 01:54:48 PM
Smartphones are killing the compact camera business;  the DSLR business is small in comparison, especially the high-end DSLR business.  And don't forget copiers, printers, scanners, medical, and industrial components.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: marekjoz on October 26, 2012, 01:59:24 PM
Smartphones are killing the compact camera business;  the DSLR business is small in comparison, especially the high-end DSLR business.  And don't forget copiers, printers, scanners, medical, and industrial components.

Excellent point and the question remains: is Canon or is not the huge supplier of camera sensors for smartphones? :D
If Canon delivers such sensors then great - they loose on p&s but get back something on smartphones market.
If Canon doesn't deliver... then... why exactly? :D
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: pdirestajr on October 26, 2012, 02:04:07 PM
I also think technology is getting to the point where the annual upgrades are so incremental, you really don't need to buy a new model every few years. The 5DII will still actually produce beautiful photos in 5 years from now.

Point & Shoots are dead.

Businesses will evolve.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: ablearcher on October 26, 2012, 02:05:23 PM

Probably because no one had the D800 in stock, and low supply means high demand which means no market drive for a lower price.
The stock has been good for some time now but I still have not seen any shocking deals on this body.

Quote
I thought $3500 was not unreasonable.  The IQ of a 5DII (already excellent) coupled with the AF system of a camera costing >$3K more, plus 6 fps shooting speed?  That's a powerful combination.  If I had any interest in purchasing a 5DIII, would I want it to be cheaper?  Of course.  But if I had been interested in purchasing a 5DIII, the $3500 price would not have affected my decision.  Amortized over a 3 year life of the camera, $500 becomes something like 46¢ per day.  My morning coffee cost 10 times that.  Just sayin'.

Well, the street price drop is more than $500 in the US and considering Canadian online buyers it is around $1K for us. I do realize the MSRP was not an issue for some. However, this is not what i am talking about. Yes, the extra $500-$750 might not be a big deal for pros who have this cam as a money making machine, or for some who can afford to pay even more than that without any significant financial impact. But consider D800 sitting next to it at $3K and consider over 800 Canon units which Adorama easily moved in just a couple of days at a $750 discount.  I don't think that $2750 is just a pocket change for many in these hard economic times, however folks jumped on this deal right away. Nobody is expecting to have MKIII discounted into oblivion, but people are ready to spend close to $3K of hard earned cash for this item. Again, this is not just about purchaser's expectation of a cheaper price. Its about current market situation (mostly direct competition from D800).
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: distant.star on October 26, 2012, 03:36:46 PM

.
Wow. Santa won't be happy this year!

Canon can look for coal in their stocking if they can't do better than this.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: dafrank on October 26, 2012, 03:59:34 PM
I am neither a corporate financial analyst nor am I even well informed on the relative performance of Canon vis- a-vis other camera makers, such as Nikon or Sony, and I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. But, has anyone even wondered just a tiny bit whether or not there may have been just a tiny twinge of sarcasm in the OP by this site's administrator? After all, making just under a billion dollars profit in a single quarter in today's business climate doesn't seem very bad to me. What do you others think about that?

Furthermore, I doubt very much whether the dynamic range of Canon's sensors or even the available feature sets in their current DSLR lineup has even the remotest tangential connection with the current downturn in their profit margins. Could there eventually be such a connection in the future? Yes, but not for a very long time down the road, as although these values are hot topics in forums like this one and in DPR, in the minds of the vast majority of camera buyers, these currently matter almost not at all.

Common sense tells me that what is happening to Canon right now is probably chiefly related to (in order by significance):

1) The worldwide downturn in economic activity that is affecting most of the developed world
2) The movement to use cellphones instead of point & shoot cameras for everyday snapshots
3) Problems with production in both Japan and China
4) Increasing overall competition from many companies which have all struggled for increased market share during a period of slow-to-negative growth in the overall market
5) Less than stellar marketing, product planning and price point reaearch
6) Some, but not a lot, of the stasis and play-it-safe caution which almost always eventually affects market leaders (as Canon has so long been) in their fields of expertise

As to the ever popular ideas of Canon's supposed sloth or lack of ability in developing Sonikon-like sensors and their slightly less generous feature allocation to cameras down the price point ladder, I believe that the people posing these criticisms have a point, but not a very great one, and that Canon surely will soon respond to some of these by both introducing new sensor lines and upgrading features somewhat by either firmware updates or new model variations. The most recent firmware updates and price reductions are evidence of the beginning of this trend which I think we''l be seeing a lot more of in the future.

Canon didn't get where they are now by being stupid or unaware of their markets; they will undoubtedly improve their corporate governance to try to maintain their market leadership. I cannot say how or how fast they will do it, but I am very confident that they will, indeed, do it.

Last, I would be much more worried, in general, about Canon's business equipment divisions than I would about their photo business. Not only is the world-wide recession affecting this market way more than that for cameras, but I think that the trend away from printing towards the long expected but never realized "paperless office" is, by virtue of business cost cutting due to economic necessity, finally starting to be significant; since Canon's office eqipment business is mostly about paper printers, on one level or another, and that I'd expect the falling market in that category to continue indefintely, I'd think that that part of Canon's business is most in jeopardy, and that they need to somehow diversify or downsize that division very rapidly to make up for it.

Regards,
David
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: jrista on October 26, 2012, 04:01:42 PM

Probably because no one had the D800 in stock, and low supply means high demand which means no market drive for a lower price.
The stock has been good for some time now but I still have not seen any shocking deals on this body.

Quote
I thought $3500 was not unreasonable.  The IQ of a 5DII (already excellent) coupled with the AF system of a camera costing >$3K more, plus 6 fps shooting speed?  That's a powerful combination.  If I had any interest in purchasing a 5DIII, would I want it to be cheaper?  Of course.  But if I had been interested in purchasing a 5DIII, the $3500 price would not have affected my decision.  Amortized over a 3 year life of the camera, $500 becomes something like 46¢ per day.  My morning coffee cost 10 times that.  Just sayin'.

Well, the street price drop is more than $500 in the US and considering Canadian online buyers it is around $1K for us. I do realize the MSRP was not an issue for some. However, this is not what i am talking about. Yes, the extra $500-$750 might not be a big deal for pros who have this cam as a money making machine, or for some who can afford to pay even more than that without any significant financial impact. But consider D800 sitting next to it at $3K and consider over 800 Canon units which Adorama easily moved in just a couple of days at a $750 discount.  I don't think that $2750 is just a pocket change for many in these hard economic times, however folks jumped on this deal right away. Nobody is expecting to have MKIII discounted into oblivion, but people are ready to spend close to $3K of hard earned cash for this item. Again, this is not just about purchaser's expectation of a cheaper price. Its about current market situation (mostly direct competition from D800).

I think you are confusing what competition is. It is pretty clear that the 5D III and D800 are meant for different market segments. They are NOT direct competitors. The 5D III is without question a wedding photographers camera, as well as a great backup sports/wildlifers/birders body, on top of being the greatest general-purpose camera ever made. The D800 has NOT taken terribly well with wedding photographers (while some seem to like it, many more have found it to be very poorly suited to the segment), it does not serve well as a backup sports body, it is a superb studio and landscape camera, and as such it is definitely more of a direct competitor to MFD cameras than the worlds greatest general-purpose camera. I see more bird and wildlife photographers using the D600 than the D800.

I think it is fundamentally flawed to call the 5D III and D800 direct competitors. At the moment, I am not sure the 5D III, with its amazing AF system, good middle-ground megapixels, high frame rate, and pro-grade build really has any kind of "direct" competitor, although the D600 might actually be closer than the D800.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: marekjoz on October 26, 2012, 04:07:11 PM

Probably because no one had the D800 in stock, and low supply means high demand which means no market drive for a lower price.
The stock has been good for some time now but I still have not seen any shocking deals on this body.

Quote
I thought $3500 was not unreasonable.  The IQ of a 5DII (already excellent) coupled with the AF system of a camera costing >$3K more, plus 6 fps shooting speed?  That's a powerful combination.  If I had any interest in purchasing a 5DIII, would I want it to be cheaper?  Of course.  But if I had been interested in purchasing a 5DIII, the $3500 price would not have affected my decision.  Amortized over a 3 year life of the camera, $500 becomes something like 46¢ per day.  My morning coffee cost 10 times that.  Just sayin'.

Well, the street price drop is more than $500 in the US and considering Canadian online buyers it is around $1K for us. I do realize the MSRP was not an issue for some. However, this is not what i am talking about. Yes, the extra $500-$750 might not be a big deal for pros who have this cam as a money making machine, or for some who can afford to pay even more than that without any significant financial impact. But consider D800 sitting next to it at $3K and consider over 800 Canon units which Adorama easily moved in just a couple of days at a $750 discount.  I don't think that $2750 is just a pocket change for many in these hard economic times, however folks jumped on this deal right away. Nobody is expecting to have MKIII discounted into oblivion, but people are ready to spend close to $3K of hard earned cash for this item. Again, this is not just about purchaser's expectation of a cheaper price. Its about current market situation (mostly direct competition from D800).

I think you are confusing what competition is. It is pretty clear that the 5D III and D800 are meant for different market segments. They are NOT direct competitors. The 5D III is without question a wedding photographers camera, as well as a great backup sports/wildlifers/birders body, on top of being the greatest general-purpose camera ever made. The D800 has NOT taken terribly well with wedding photographers (while some seem to like it, many more have found it to be very poorly suited to the segment), it does not serve well as a backup sports body, it is a superb studio and landscape camera, and as such it is definitely more of a direct competitor to MFD cameras than the worlds greatest general-purpose camera. I see more bird and wildlife photographers using the D600 than the D800.

I think it is fundamentally flawed to call the 5D III and D800 direct competitors. At the moment, I am not sure the 5D III, with its amazing AF system, good middle-ground megapixels, high frame rate, and pro-grade build really has any kind of "direct" competitor, although the D600 might actually be closer than the D800.

But I think, that if there were people saying "5d3 is too expensive for me as for its sensor capabilities, I'm going to buy d800", then somehow, no matter if Canon or Nikon wanted to make those products competitive or not, it happened so in some way anyway :)
Even if 5d3 and d800 are different tools for different purposes, there were people, who just wanted to have a new toy and only those toys were available at this time. :D
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: NormanBates on October 26, 2012, 04:15:05 PM
Can't be: the 5D3 and the 1DX are the best cameras ever and their price is perfectly fair, so they must be selling like hotcakes. Those Canon managers that presented this financial report are just Nikon fanboys.

On a more serious note, let's wait and see Nikon's numbers, then we'll have a clearer picture of whether it is slow world demand, or Canon-specific issues, that are pulling their results down.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: unfocused on October 26, 2012, 04:16:09 PM
Please read the !@#$% report!

http://www.canon.com/ir/results/2012/rslt2012q3e.pdf (http://www.canon.com/ir/results/2012/rslt2012q3e.pdf)

"Demand for interchangeable-lens digital cameras continued to realize robust growth in all regions while the market for compact digital cameras shrunk due to the stagnation of the global economy."

"Within the Imaging System Business Unit, despite efforts to achieve sales growth with the competitively priced EOS Digital Rebel series along with the EOS 5D Mark III and EOS 60D advanced-amateur models, sales volumes of interchangeable-lens digital cameras decreased from the year-ago period due to a delayed new-product launch."

Why would anyone want to waste their time reading the report, when they can spend it writing uninformed comments that bear no relation to the facts?
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: neuroanatomist on October 26, 2012, 04:19:27 PM
On a more serious note, let's wait and see Nikon's numbers, then we'll have a clearer picture of whether it is slow world demand, or Canon-specific issues, that are pulling their results down.

But...rushing to judgement in the absence of facts is so fun!!!   :P
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: gmrza on October 26, 2012, 04:51:48 PM
i bought a new sony TV this year and new pioneer audio gear.

i wonder why i did not notice the strong YEN on these buys....
Have you checked Sony's financial report?  It might give you a hint.  They are losing money hand over fist due to lowering prices to compete with South Korea.  You got your TV below cost.  Hopefully, Sony will still be in business if it needs repair.  The first thing Sony has dropped when times were tough was customer service, and for them, times are very tough.

You just need to look at other areas:

I don't think I need to go on to list all the businesses that are seeing lower sales and revenue than expected.

In the current trading conditions, Canon has probably done quite well.  Canon has probably done well to contain costs by sticking with a mature process for the sensors on its current range of full frame bodies.  Hopefully that will place it in a good position to invest in new production capacity for the next generation of cameras. - That is making the assumption that the current economic malaise starts to turn around within 3 to 4 years.

Aside from the difficult market outlook, P&S cameras are under threat from phones, and printers are under threat from the paperless office.

As far as cutting R&D spending goes, yes, I expect some of that may happen.  On the other hand, Japanese companies tend to play a longer term game than their American and European counterparts.  - I have noticed that since my employer was bought by a large Japanese telco and delisted.  There is more investment in R&D, more emphasis on longer term investments etc.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: thexfile on October 26, 2012, 07:14:22 PM
If Canon can keep the their prices down then people would be more tempted.

Amazon best selling SLRs (updated hourly).
http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Camera-Photo-Digital-SLR-Cameras/zgbs/photo/3017941 (http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Camera-Photo-Digital-SLR-Cameras/zgbs/photo/3017941)

Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: infared on October 26, 2012, 07:36:23 PM
Some of Canon's problem is the world economy...but much of it has to do with the RIDICULOUS prices that Canon is attaching to MANY of their products. WAY out of line with their competitors.  I feel some massive rebates coming on sometime soon...I for one am buying NOTHING Canon until the company gets real...I bought a 5DIii 4 months ago...and now see it online for $700 less than I paid for it? Canon....that is insulting to your customers. I expect the price to drop...but nothing like this. Also delivering products that are far below their hardware capabilities and having hackers embarrassingly shoewng your own firmware ????
Everyone...let's do a Canon boycott for 6 months...right thru the holidays and bring this arrogant behaving company to its knees!
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: verysimplejason on October 26, 2012, 08:17:10 PM
Some of Canon's problem is the world economy...but much of it has to do with the RIDICULOUS prices that Canon is attaching to MANY of their products. WAY out of line with their competitors.  I feel some massive rebates coming on sometime soon...I for one am buying NOTHING Canon until the company gets real...I bought a 5DIii 4 months ago...and now see it online for $700 less than I paid for it? Canon....that is insulting to your customers. I expect the price to drop...but nothing like this. Also delivering products that are far below their hardware capabilities and having hackers embarrassingly shoewng your own firmware ????
Everyone...let's do a Canon boycott for 6 months...right thru the holidays and bring this arrogant behaving company to its knees!

These price drops may not be good for early adopters.  That's why patience is always a virtue.  But you had enjoyed your camera 4 months earlier than the rest of us.  Right? :)
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: Daniel Flather on October 26, 2012, 09:51:59 PM
Average Joe's are slowly using their smartphones now and dont even buy film or P&S anymore.

Slowly? You used film and smartphone in the same sentence! 
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: Daniel Flather on October 26, 2012, 09:58:51 PM
I can't remember the last time I saw someone using a point and shoot camera; it's always a smartphone.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: RS2021 on October 26, 2012, 10:06:18 PM
Well, 6D is not gonna help any with the earnings once it is released. It is Canon's effort to pack the midrange with multiple bodies in the hopes that the buckshot approach covers that segment... all this results in lack luster bodies that don't necessarily stand out of the pack. 

I think 6D will have steeper price drops than 5D3 within months following release.  To expect otherwise given the high introductory price for this body is being overly optimistic. The added features may appeal to fanboys, but not to an average Joe who is not tied to the brand.

So expect Canon to turn out yet another poor financial report card in the next quater.  The price drops in 5D3 are no coincidence...the demand is poorer than anticipated in the mass market. Canon still has one thing going for it....the lenses. But they can't ride that horse for ever. They will have to make bold moves. Bolder than 6D.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: Pag on October 26, 2012, 11:00:48 PM
Of course the world economy isn't doing too great, and the yen gained a lot of value. Both things have a big effect on corporations. Still, I think one of the big problems of Canon and Nikon is that digital cameras are now mature technology. The 5D MkII introduced video 4 years ago, which was the last big change for SLRs. Since then, we've only seen incremental upgrades. If you don't care about video -- and many photographers don't -- then the last big change is even older than that.

Any mid-range SLR or better that's 4 years old or less can take great picture in a broad array of conditions. Even my old 50D is good enough in the great majority of situations. There have been some improvements, of course, but nothing revolutionary. I don't own a 5D MkIII, but looking at specs and reviews I can't even think of a good reason why I would ever upgrade once I got one. The complaints I read on these boards are quite nitpicky and I can't see myself spending thousands of dollars just so I get lit focus points, enough pixels to compete with medium format cameras, or a stop or two of additional dynamic range at iso 100.

Canon and Nikon need to start innovating, or their customers will stop upgrading their cameras because what they have is good enough. The pace of evolution is a lot faster in the realm of cellphone cameras and m43 cameras are competing more and more with SLRs. If I was an executive at Canon and Nikon, I'd be nervous about what the future holds...
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: Chosenbydestiny on October 27, 2012, 12:12:01 AM
Well, 6D is not gonna help any with the earnings once it is released. It is Canon's effort to pack the midrange with multiple bodies in the hopes that the buckshot approach covers that segment... all this results in lack luster bodies that don't necessarily stand out of the pack. 

I think 6D will have steeper price drops than 5D3 within months following release.  To expect otherwise given the high introductory price for this body is being overly optimistic. The added features may appeal to fanboys, but not to an average Joe who is not tied to the brand.

So expect Canon to turn out yet another poor financial report card in the next quater.  The price drops in 5D3 are no coincidence...the demand is poorer than anticipated in the mass market. Canon still has one thing going for it....the lenses. But they can't ride that horse for ever. They will have to make bold moves. Bolder than 6D.

But not as bold as barbecue sauce  ;)
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: trygved on October 27, 2012, 12:43:32 AM
Well, 6D is not gonna help any with the earnings once it is released. It is Canon's effort to pack the midrange with multiple bodies in the hopes that the buckshot approach covers that segment... all this results in lack luster bodies that don't necessarily stand out of the pack. 

I think 6D will have steeper price drops than 5D3 within months following release.  To expect otherwise given the high introductory price for this body is being overly optimistic. The added features may appeal to fanboys, but not to an average Joe who is not tied to the brand.

So expect Canon to turn out yet another poor financial report card in the next quater.  The price drops in 5D3 are no coincidence...the demand is poorer than anticipated in the mass market. Canon still has one thing going for it....the lenses. But they can't ride that horse for ever. They will have to make bold moves. Bolder than 6D.

It is difficult for Canon to make a bold move with the 6D like it did with the 5DII, as it has to play nice with its more sophisticated bigger brother.
I can see the 7DII having the leg room to make a strong impression (although the current 7D still holds its weight) as Canon will not have as many concerns about it cannibalizing another camera in the lineup.

To make a splash the way the 5DII did, I would imagine the Canon video dept would have to drop a bomb of an announcement. The C300 & C100 are exciting to a degree, but the price point makes it hard to pine over. Given Black Magic's ambitious foray into the segment (with its many shortcomings), I believe Canon could make the biggest waves here.

Just my ¢¢ + a little wishful thinking.  :P
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: verysimplejason on October 27, 2012, 12:46:41 AM
I can't remember the last time I saw someone using a point and shoot camera; it's always a smartphone.

I must admit, I'm almost tempted getting a smartphone instead but when somebody sold me his G11 @ $150, pristine with only 3.5K actuations, I can't say no to it.  Instead I bought a very simple phone to go with my G11.  My G11 is almost always with me wherever we go, safely tucked in my belt bag and ready for action.  I've also included a very small $1 tripod to go with it for those long exposure shots.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8162/7590084446_2de464d81b.jpg)
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: lopicma on October 27, 2012, 02:01:11 AM
I have heard that sales of Compact System Cameras is big in Asia, and that can't be helping. 
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: Greatland on October 27, 2012, 02:08:57 AM
I know how they can make some money.....start delivering all of the 500 and 600mm lenses that have been ordered in this country! ;)
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: hutjeflut on October 27, 2012, 10:07:32 AM
its not strange this was expected to be honest.

way higher prices most new bodies and lenses went up 50% in price compared to 2009.
there is a global crisis , the dslr market is saturated.
and the need for body upgrades reduces because even a body out 2009 can make great photo's where before there was a lot to wish for in digital dslr's now they are a grown up product with all the bells and whisles.

they need to lower there price and make there products more widely available instead of raise prices and make it impossible to buy new lenses for the avrage guy.

i wil not and cannot ever pay 2150 euros (2800 dollar) for a 70-200 2,8 IS as i only have a income of 915 euros a month...
so no matter how much i like all canon gear they are just stupidly expencive.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: RC on October 27, 2012, 11:41:55 AM
...It is difficult for Canon to make a bold move with the 6D like it did with the 5DII, as it has to play nice with its more sophisticated bigger brother...

Probably true although the gap between them seems huge.  Canon certainly could have made the 6D much more attractive and appealing to a larger consumer group with adequate AF, 100% VF, CF card, and 7D/5D ergo.  IMO, Canon has deprived themselves from 6D sales due to the specs.  I for one was a potential consumer until the specs came out.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: AmbientLight on October 27, 2012, 12:05:17 PM
Canon certainly could have made the 6D much more attractive and appealing to a larger consumer group with adequate AF, 100% VF, CF card, and 7D/5D ergo.  IMO, Canon has deprived themselves from 6D sales due to the specs.  I for one was a potential consumer until the specs came out.

Now you have the option to help a poor :o, suffering ::) Japanese company down on its luck in a weak economy :'( by spending some $$$ on a 5D Mark III. Show some support for a suffering company!  8) See shown financial results ...

Just kidding ...
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: neuroanatomist on October 27, 2012, 12:11:13 PM
...It is difficult for Canon to make a bold move with the 6D like it did with the 5DII, as it has to play nice with its more sophisticated bigger brother...

Probably true although the gap between them seems huge.  Canon certainly could have made the 6D much more attractive and appealing to a larger consumer group with adequate AF, 100% VF, CF card, and 7D/5D ergo.  IMO, Canon has deprived themselves from 6D sales due to the specs.  I for one was a potential consumer until the specs came out.

If you want/need great AF, 100% VF, CF card, and 7D/5D ergo, Canon wants you to buy a 5DIII.  They are good at up-marketing. 50D users were pushed to the 7D vs. the 60D in the same way.  I think the 6D is targeted at xxxD/60D owners, not 7D/5DII owners, in terms of an upgrade.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: DB on October 27, 2012, 03:50:47 PM
What Neuro says is what the Canon Europe executive said @ Photokina in Germany last month when interviewed by Camera Labs (I posted YouTube vid earlier on another thread): "the 6D is an ideal upgrade body for Rebel and 60D owners" - so it was never intended for 7D/5D2 owners as a progression path.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: distant.star on October 27, 2012, 04:18:14 PM

i wil not and cannot ever pay 2150 euros (2800 dollar) for a 70-200 2,8 IS as i only have a income of 915 euros a month...
so no matter how much i like all canon gear they are just stupidly expencive.

You could live in a cardboard box for a couple of months and do some dumpster diving to eat. And there you go, just like that and you've got your new lens!

Or, are you not willing to suffer for your art?
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: steliosk on October 27, 2012, 05:27:20 PM
New canon products are overrated. Not affordable, i'm very glad they fell out of their goal making money.
Canon should open eyes and see the world economic crisis.
where the hell are you going selling 5D 3 3.000 $
are you expecting to sell like 5D 2 back in her age while the worlds economic pulse isn't good?

Products i WOULD buy to upgrade my work:
5D 3
70-200 2.8 IS II
24-70 2.8 II

but the prices of those products are EXTREMELY high with no reason. Its like canon saying, DON'T BUY IT.. and i'm curious, why the hell are you constructing such monsters if you don't want to sell them!
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: RC on October 27, 2012, 05:55:27 PM
...It is difficult for Canon to make a bold move with the 6D like it did with the 5DII, as it has to play nice with its more sophisticated bigger brother...

Probably true although the gap between them seems huge.  Canon certainly could have made the 6D much more attractive and appealing to a larger consumer group with adequate AF, 100% VF, CF card, and 7D/5D ergo.  IMO, Canon has deprived themselves from 6D sales due to the specs.  I for one was a potential consumer until the specs came out.

If you want/need great AF, 100% VF, CF card, and 7D/5D ergo, Canon wants you to buy a 5DIII.  They are good at up-marketing. 50D users were pushed to the 7D vs. the 60D in the same way.  I think the 6D is targeted at xxxD/60D owners, not 7D/5DII owners, in terms of an upgrade.

Dead-on analysis.  You sure nailed it for my situation anyway.  After being absent from photography for several years, I was looking at the 50D as my first dSLR but waited for the 60D's announcement first.   I was disappointed with the 60D specs so I went with a 7D.   Now today, déjà vu, the major disappointment with the 6D has driven me to the 5D3.  Just waiting for the price to drop a little more before I order.


I think the 6D is targeted at xxxD/60D owners, not 7D/5DII owners, in terms of an upgrade.
Exactly and that is why it should have a xxD name instead of a xD.  Canon wasted the 6D slot IMO.


Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: HarryWintergreen on October 27, 2012, 06:41:36 PM
Canon at photokina was amazingly uninspired. I am a Canon fanboy but Nikon, Fuji and others showed much morementhusiasm. G15 is a joke. The only thing showing a bit of making the other manufactures gasp is the shorty forty. This was a quite smart move. But it's just not enough to show the big whites. There is so much that could be said. I hate to see Sony going in the right direction with the RX 1 and Canon hoping to be sacrosanct as a big player. Nothing to write home about.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: infared on October 27, 2012, 08:53:13 PM


These price drops may not be good for early adopters.  That's why patience is always a virtue.  But you had enjoyed your camera 4 months earlier than the rest of us.  Right? :)
[/quote]

I expect the price to come down $200-$300...but no $700.  My 5DII really held its value....This is just absurd.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: infared on October 27, 2012, 09:04:06 PM
New canon products are overrated. Not affordable, i'm very glad they fell out of their goal making money.
Canon should open eyes and see the world economic crisis.
where the hell are you going selling 5D 3 3.000 $
are you expecting to sell like 5D 2 back in her age while the worlds economic pulse isn't good?

Products i WOULD buy to upgrade my work:
5D 3
70-200 2.8 IS II
24-70 2.8 II

but the prices of those products are EXTREMELY high with no reason. Its like canon saying, DON'T BUY IT.. and i'm curious, why the hell are you constructing such monsters if you don't want to sell them!

I agree with you completely! Although...my 70-200 (which I paid $2500 for when it was released) is sooooooo sharp sometimes I actually think it was worth the money. LOL. Not so for the new 24-70mm tho...mixed reviews does not garner a $2300 price tag....Waaaaay overpriced...what is Canon thinking?
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: AG on October 27, 2012, 09:40:47 PM
The way i see this whole thing. (your opinion may vary)

Yes, Canon are pricing themselves out of the market by trying to cover the losses of their other less successful areas of business, such as say the printer department etc.

They have relied on P&S cameras for way too long.

They need to realise that mobile phones are going to replace point and shoots for a majority of the market. The way to rectify this problem is not to flood the marked with cheap nasty point and shoots but provide a few models for those few that still want them.

Similar can be said about the Digital Compacts.

They need to work out where they are going with this line? The G1X, G15, G12, SX40HS?
These are cameras that need to be a single line, not multiple versions of the same thing but this one has less blue tint or this ones flash is 10% brighter. Stuff the average consumer wont really care about.

EOS M range.

A step in the right direction but is it too little too late?
Why couldn't they have taken the G1X line and this line and made a single all round great Digital Mirrorless Compact?

Then there is the EOS range of DSLRs.

They need to make a decision where they are planning on going with this range.
As the way it stands at the moment there is way too many models to choose from and none of them really satisfy what the customers really want.
1DX is a great Journalistic camera but where is the 1Ds high MP replacement?
5D3 is a great Landscape/Low Light camera so why do we really need a 6D? why couldnt they have just dropped the price of the 5D3 and sold a hell of a lot more cameras?

How many models of the rebels do we really need?

...and while we are at it, what is the point of the 60D? why wasn't the 6D turned into the new 70D?(same plastic body etc not a 5D2 replacement that isn't quite as good) especially if the XXXD models are basically the same sensor/tech as the 60D is.

Then this rolls into the EOS Cinema.

Why is the 1DC so freaking expensive for firmware tweaks (and i know they claim it was completely new blah blah blah, but lets be honest if you are going to try and sell a $15K camera would you admit that its basically the same as its $7k twin brother?)
The C100 is overpriced for the market they are aiming at. at the same time the C300 is crippled for the market they are aiming at. (at least add 60p frame rates)

They need to have someone come in and decide lets cut the bulk and streamline this product line up.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: RS2021 on October 27, 2012, 10:09:54 PM
I think the 6D is targeted at xxxD/60D owners, not 7D/5DII owners, in terms of an upgrade.
Exactly and that is why it should have a xxD name instead of a xD.  Canon wasted the 6D slot IMO.

While this may be Canon's effort to get the xxxD and 60D crowd to move up to full frame bodies, the pricing is rather clumsy or overly optimistic. The initial pricing of 6D at ~$2099 is somewhat of a reach for this sub-$1000 crowd. I see T4i is going for around $750 and 60D is going for about $850 (cpw). So they are looking at a significant leap in $$$ here even with the added "features". Unless Canon is trying to milk the 6D "pre-order" crowd (surprise, surprise) at high prices and then drop 6D prices to somewhere around ~ $1600 in the few months after release and perhaps even to around $1400 in a year, the current pricing is neither competitive nor sustainable. But if the recent 5D3 price trajectory is anything to go by, then the ~$1400 to 1600 may not be such a bad target price for the 6D in a year or so after all.

Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: heron88 on October 27, 2012, 10:21:59 PM

Yip, I'll order a 5D3 when it drops below 3k


Though this particular one has ended, the deals are out there. Keep an eye out and you can get pretty decent prices.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-III-Digital-Camera-Digital-SLR-Body-/180998819475?afepn=5335869999&campid=5335869999&PID=1225267&forcev4exp=true&forceRpt=true#ht_3479wt_1397 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-III-Digital-Camera-Digital-SLR-Body-/180998819475?afepn=5335869999&campid=5335869999&PID=1225267&forcev4exp=true&forceRpt=true#ht_3479wt_1397)
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: Dylan777 on October 27, 2012, 11:42:56 PM
Some of Canon's problem is the world economy...but much of it has to do with the RIDICULOUS prices that Canon is attaching to MANY of their products. WAY out of line with their competitors.  I feel some massive rebates coming on sometime soon...I for one am buying NOTHING Canon until the company gets real...I bought a 5DIii 4 months ago...and now see it online for $700 less than I paid for it? Canon....that is insulting to your customers. I expect the price to drop...but nothing like this.  Also delivering products that are far below their hardware capabilities and having hackers embarrassingly shoewng your own firmware ????
Everyone...let's do a Canon boycott for 6 months...right thru the holidays and bring this arrogant behaving company to its knees!

+1....a lot of poeple said that wasn't an office price drop from Canon. To me...it's Bssssssssss.

Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: Dylan777 on October 27, 2012, 11:47:42 PM
Some of Canon's problem is the world economy...but much of it has to do with the RIDICULOUS prices that Canon is attaching to MANY of their products. WAY out of line with their competitors.  I feel some massive rebates coming on sometime soon...I for one am buying NOTHING Canon until the company gets real...I bought a 5DIii 4 months ago...and now see it online for $700 less than I paid for it? Canon....that is insulting to your customers. I expect the price to drop...but nothing like this. Also delivering products that are far below their hardware capabilities and having hackers embarrassingly shoewng your own firmware ????
Everyone...let's do a Canon boycott for 6 months...right thru the holidays and bring this arrogant behaving company to its knees!

These price drops may not be good for early adopters.  That's why patience is always a virtue.  But you had enjoyed your camera 4 months earlier than the rest of us.  Right? :)

To me...it should be 1st come 1st serve, regardless when you placed your order.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: sanj on October 28, 2012, 12:53:57 AM
The lack of funds could perhaps be the main reason why it takes so long to replenish stock and release announced products on time.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: crasher8 on October 28, 2012, 08:58:39 AM
Price drop starting NOW until Dec 1
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: UrbanVoyeur on October 28, 2012, 04:03:41 PM
I agree with many posters here. I think 3 things happened: (among other things)
- Canon's camera manufacturing cost structure is out of line with what the retail market can support. This could be due to too many last minute design changes, not enough emphasis simplicity and design reuse or a host of other reasons. The solution is a manufacturing manager who will demand - a get - less expensive, higher quality results from the engineers. It can be done.

- Canon seems to think that no one will notice when they intentionally cripple their bodies. They've been doing since the film camera days, but now that the firmware is easily accessible, they look like scam artists. Solution: make all the features a body is capable of available. Rather than hurt, it will probably help their sales because consumers will feel that they are being dealt with honestly. Further locking down or stripping the firmware will on result in an arms race with the hackers, or people gradually migrating to more hackable cameras.

- Canon has cluttered their product line with marginal tweaks and conflicting price points, while failing to deliver basic features across the board - like built-in GPS and wireless. The solution is to simplify the pricing and reduce the number of models while guaranteeing certain low/no cost options across the entire product line. That way the value proposition of the higher end cameras will be clearer.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: Simba on October 28, 2012, 05:10:48 PM
I think this year's tsunami crisis in Japan and the fact it heavily impacted r&d and production might have helped with these companies' losses...

You realize the tsunami (earthwuake + nuclear disaster) was well over a year ago right? It did do harm but when so much is made in China/Taiwan no real hits were taken.


Nikon's loss was due to Thailand floods.
http://www.engadget.com/2012/02/03/nikon-posts-q3-2011-earnings-sees-extraordinary-losses-due-to/ (http://www.engadget.com/2012/02/03/nikon-posts-q3-2011-earnings-sees-extraordinary-losses-due-to/)
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: verysimplejason on October 29, 2012, 02:12:56 AM
Some of Canon's problem is the world economy...but much of it has to do with the RIDICULOUS prices that Canon is attaching to MANY of their products. WAY out of line with their competitors.  I feel some massive rebates coming on sometime soon...I for one am buying NOTHING Canon until the company gets real...I bought a 5DIii 4 months ago...and now see it online for $700 less than I paid for it? Canon....that is insulting to your customers. I expect the price to drop...but nothing like this. Also delivering products that are far below their hardware capabilities and having hackers embarrassingly shoewng your own firmware ????
Everyone...let's do a Canon boycott for 6 months...right thru the holidays and bring this arrogant behaving company to its knees!

These price drops may not be good for early adopters.  That's why patience is always a virtue.  But you had enjoyed your camera 4 months earlier than the rest of us.  Right? :)

To me...it should be 1st come 1st serve, regardless when you placed your order.

But that's not how the law of supply and demand works.  During introduction, there will be a lot more buyers so demand will be high and supply will be low.  After initial spike in sales, it will go down and the manufacturing speed (supply) will be able to recover.  I think this is very normal even for non-photography market sales.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: dave on October 29, 2012, 05:16:57 AM
Some of Canon's problem is the world economy...but much of it has to do with the RIDICULOUS prices that Canon is attaching to MANY of their products. WAY out of line with their competitors.  I feel some massive rebates coming on sometime soon...I for one am buying NOTHING Canon until the company gets real...I bought a 5DIii 4 months ago...and now see it online for $700 less than I paid for it? Canon....that is insulting to your customers. I expect the price to drop...but nothing like this. Also delivering products that are far below their hardware capabilities and having hackers embarrassingly shoewng your own firmware ????
Everyone...let's do a Canon boycott for 6 months...right thru the holidays and bring this arrogant behaving company to its knees!

These price drops may not be good for early adopters.  That's why patience is always a virtue.  But you had enjoyed your camera 4 months earlier than the rest of us.  Right? :)

To me...it should be 1st come 1st serve, regardless when you placed your order.

But that's not how the law of supply and demand works.  During introduction, there will be a lot more buyers so demand will be high and supply will be low.  After initial spike in sales, it will go down and the manufacturing speed (supply) will be able to recover.  I think this is very normal even for non-photography market sales.

+1

Ummm. Computers, Televisions and most electronics are similar - prices drop. Clothes go on sale all the time - even from high status brands.Nobody actually forced you to pay the asking price. I shelled out $2300 for the supposedly ridiculous 24-70 ii and love it and if other people are able to get one for $1500 in a couple of months I'd be happy for them. Canon are a business and will behave in a way that suits them. You need to make your purchase decisions based on your own evaluation of your needs/wants. Once you purchase and choose not to return it after testing you've made the decision. Presumably you aren't buying a body as a capital producing investment so you may as well be happy.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: RuneL on October 29, 2012, 07:13:20 AM
The cause? A series Underwhelming products, Inflated Pricing, And a series of restrictions based on profit rather than R&D. IE: 1Dx F/8 focusing.
I doubt the 1D sales have ever had a large impact on canons revenue. They are like halo products.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: RLPhoto on October 29, 2012, 08:42:54 AM
The cause? A series Underwhelming products, Inflated Pricing, And a series of restrictions based on profit rather than R&D. IE: 1Dx F/8 focusing.
I doubt the 1D sales have ever had a large impact on canons revenue. They are like halo products.

In example or IE. The hardware of the 61-pt system is capable of f/8 focusing. The 1Dx and 5D3 were restricted in an attempt to force users into larger more expensive glass.

The 6D's attempt to stretch the 5D's AF system to another generation is a pure profit based venture instead of R&D.

The EOS M with the recycled 4 year old sensor being priced at 599$ body only is another example.

There are many more, but I'll let you fill those in.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: PackLight on October 29, 2012, 09:41:35 AM
A quote from Canon's press release;

"Demand for interchangeable-lens digital cameras continued to realize
robust growth in all regions while the market for compact digital cameras shrunk due to the stagnation of the global economy."

It is obvious that Canon realizes that the 6D release, the 5D III pricing and other DSLR issues are the primary cause for this quarters downturn. Obviously "Robust Growth" has a meaning I am not familure with.

http://www.canon.com/ir/results/2012/rslt2012q3e.pdf (http://www.canon.com/ir/results/2012/rslt2012q3e.pdf)
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: wwnwong4829 on October 29, 2012, 09:53:14 AM
I am living in Hong Kong. The 1Dx shows up in a lot of the camera shops now, like other luxurious items - watches, jewelry, French and Italian handbags, Apple items, expensive camera gear, ... etc, waiting for the rich Chinese to buy.  8)
In the past few years, this drive of luxurious items have pushed the local shop rent and residence prices sky high.
This might sound exaggerated, but cinema closed down to become Luxury Item Shop(s?), a section of the most popular shopping area is now filled with expensive watch shops, and can you image a whole street of camera store chains - you can spot 3 stores from the same chain within 100 meters and they are not small!
As the economic growth in China slows down, this bubble will burst soon. >:(
Canon's marketing dept will have a hard time forecasting the demand and pricing their products.  :D

Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: marekjoz on October 29, 2012, 10:17:14 AM
I am living in Hong Kong. The 1Dx shows up in a lot of the camera shops now, like other luxurious items - watches, jewelry, French and Italian handbags, Apple items, expensive camera gear, ... etc, waiting for the rich Chinese to buy.  8)
In the past few years, this drive of luxurious items have pushed the local shop rent and residence prices sky high.
This might sound exaggerated, but cinema closed down to become Luxury Item Shop(s?), a section of the most popular shopping area is now filled with expensive watch shops, and can you image a whole street of camera store chains - you can spot 3 stores from the same chain within 100 meters and they are not small!
As the economic growth in China slows down, this bubble will burst soon. >:(
Canon's marketing dept will have a hard time forecasting the demand and pricing their products.  :D

They can always make a Lunar version of 1dx
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: caruser on October 29, 2012, 11:11:08 AM
A quote from Canon's press release;

"Demand for interchangeable-lens digital cameras continued to realize
robust growth in all regions while the market for compact digital cameras shrunk due to the stagnation of the global economy."

http://www.canon.com/ir/results/2012/rslt2012q3e.pdf (http://www.canon.com/ir/results/2012/rslt2012q3e.pdf)

Aren't compacts going away because phones are now good enough to replace a compact for most people?
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: AmbientLight on October 29, 2012, 11:17:36 AM
I believe you are quite correct, but in a press statement we are not likely to find this.

If Canon would indeed state something like that, it would sound as if they admit an error of judgement regarding the compact camera sector, where, if I am not mistaken, Canon was and still is the market leader.

It appears to me that Canon tried and still tries to reap profits from that market, but realizes that it will dwindle away. Stating the stagnating global economy as a source for that downturn in income points to a cause Canon is unable to effect, so the company doesn't blame itself for what is happening, which I reckon is the exact reason they phrased it like this.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: unfocused on October 29, 2012, 01:05:18 PM
Read a little further: "As for compact digital cameras, while highly functional PowerShot-series models contributed to healthy sales, unit sales for the third quarter declined from the corresponding period of the previous year due to sluggish market demand."

Also: "Demand for compact digital cameras is anticipated to increase for models offering high functionality and high added value."

Canon is acknowledging sluggish demand for compact digital cameras and targeting higher end models (In particular the G1X and EOS-M). So, yes, they recognize that the traditional low-price consumer PowerShot models are not doing well and they are targeting the higher end.

This is a problem for all camera manufacturers, not just Canon. For years, profits from low-end consumer models have provided a foundation for manufacturers to build off of. DSLR sales remain strong and profitable, but will there ever be sufficient demand to replace the revenues lost from compact digital sales? I doubt it. It would not surprise me to see Canon's imaging business unit (cameras) and similar units within Nikon, Sony, Fuji and others all shrink considerably in the coming years. Bad news for employees who work on the production lines for compact digital cameras. But, since the ultimate success of a company is based more on return on investment rather than gross sales, a smaller, leaner imaging business unit doesn't necessarily spell doom.

Companies get in trouble when they fail to adapt to changing market conditions (Kodak). Those that anticipate and adjust succeed (Fuji).

Part of Canon's (and Nikon's) strategy seems to be to diversify the DSLR product line: maintaining a full range of APS-C models while expanding their Full Frame offerings. But, the DSLR market is fairly mature, so they also need to capture new customers with the high-end compacts. Manufacturers must navigate generational and cultural differences and the high-end compact offerings are part of that strategy.

There is absolutely NOTHING in the report that supports many of the posts on this thread. It might be fun and personally satisfying to misread this report to confirm pre-conceived ideas of what Canon's pricing strategy should be for a product that a forum participant happens to think costs too much, but the financials simply don't support any of that wishful thinking.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: PackLight on October 29, 2012, 03:42:08 PM
Companies get in trouble when they fail to adapt to changing market conditions (Kodak). Those that anticipate and adjust succeed (Fuji).

Seriously, Canon is a cash flush company that just made a bit short of Billion dollars in one quarter. Now they are in trouble?
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: jrista on October 30, 2012, 02:17:00 PM
Companies get in trouble when they fail to adapt to changing market conditions (Kodak). Those that anticipate and adjust succeed (Fuji).

Seriously, Canon is a cash flush company that just made a bit short of Billion dollars in one quarter. Now they are in trouble?

That's my question. It seems Canon is doing remarkably well considering the world economic situation and some extremely intense competition.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: PackLight on October 30, 2012, 04:08:13 PM
Companies get in trouble when they fail to adapt to changing market conditions (Kodak). Those that anticipate and adjust succeed (Fuji).

Seriously, Canon is a cash flush company that just made a bit short of Billion dollars in one quarter. Now they are in trouble?

That's my question. It seems Canon is doing remarkably well considering the world economic situation and some extremely intense competition.

They must be close to bankruptcy if they are only making 3 billion plus a year.

Here is the reality;
Canon is listed as paying out 63% of their profits in dividends. The company "Canon" doesn't suffer at all in this down turn. The dividends just get smaller. The majority of the money everyone is discussing is money that doesn't go to R&D or anything else, it goes to the shareholders.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: well_dunno on October 31, 2012, 09:11:03 AM
Panasonic Posts Loss of Nearly $9 Billion


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204712904578089962887027962.html?mod=WSJEurope_hpp_LEFTTopStories

Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: Greg_M on November 01, 2012, 11:10:09 AM
If I were on Mars and Canon was selling oxygen they might have me, but the reality is that people like me (that are on fixed incomes and/or not professionals) will simply not buy their product and their income will go down instead of up.

This is such a simple concept....
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: Gothmoth on November 01, 2012, 11:24:17 AM
canon sales are still strong.. no suprise given the large EXISTING userbase.

but... new DSLR users buy more nikon gear than any time before.

i can only speak from my experience .. sure.

but nikon sells very strong this year for people who are buying new into a DSLR system.

no wonder if you ask me.... though economy... and nikon offers a camera with great public reception for 500-600 euro less (D800 vs. 5D MK3).

the D600 also sells very well.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: unfocused on November 01, 2012, 12:48:58 PM
Companies get in trouble when they fail to adapt to changing market conditions (Kodak). Those that anticipate and adjust succeed (Fuji).

Seriously, Canon is a cash flush company that just made a bit short of Billion dollars in one quarter. Now they are in trouble?

What is it about the Internet that makes people incapable of reading an entire post and instead simply pull a small quote out of context so they can write silly drive-by comments.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: jrista on November 01, 2012, 05:27:14 PM
canon sales are still strong.. no suprise given the large EXISTING userbase.

but... new DSLR users buy more nikon gear than any time before.

i can only speak from my experience .. sure.

but nikon sells very strong this year for people who are buying new into a DSLR system.

no wonder if you ask me.... though economy... and nikon offers a camera with great public reception for 500-600 euro less (D800 vs. 5D MK3).

the D600 also sells very well.

You have any external resources that actually back up that claim? Or is it just another anecdote intended to skew peoples thinking?

I didn't even know that companies reported that kind of information, or better yet, were even capable of GATHERING it in the first place! How the hell does anyone who might be capable of generating that kind of specific information know if someone buying a Nikon camera is a "new" photographer or not? What about all the people who just buy a camera, and don't tell their reseller ANYTHING about themselves other than that they want a particular camera? Sorry, but I call bullshit. No one could even get enough information about enough buyers to derive specific enough statistics that could actually be used to determine that Nikon, Canon, or any other manufacturer is selling more cameras to "new photographers."

I believe Nikon has gained "switchers", who have dumped Canon in favor of a brand that offers them more dynamic range. I believe that because there are literally people who HAVE switched who've talked about it, blogged about it, and created videos about it. Wherever there is a vocal sample, there is a larger base from which that vocal sample comes from. There is information to back up the claim that Canon has lost some customers to Nikon due to existing Canon customers switching brands (or adding Nikon to their kit rather than getting a new Canon camera.) There is no information about how many such individuals there might be in total, though, and on the flip side there have definitely been people who've jumped off the Nikon ship to get a 5D III or a 1D X as well...so the net change could even be neutral.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: Simba on November 01, 2012, 06:53:36 PM
canon sales are still strong.. no suprise given the large EXISTING userbase.

but... new DSLR users buy more nikon gear than any time before.

i can only speak from my experience .. sure.

but nikon sells very strong this year for people who are buying new into a DSLR system.

no wonder if you ask me.... though economy... and nikon offers a camera with great public reception for 500-600 euro less (D800 vs. 5D MK3).

the D600 also sells very well.

You have any external resources that actually back up that claim? Or is it just another anecdote intended to skew peoples thinking?

I didn't even know that companies reported that kind of information, or better yet, were even capable of GATHERING it in the first place! How the hell does anyone who might be capable of generating that kind of specific information know if someone buying a Nikon camera is a "new" photographer or not? What about all the people who just buy a camera, and don't tell their reseller ANYTHING about themselves other than that they want a particular camera? Sorry, but I call bullshit. No one could even get enough information about enough buyers to derive specific enough statistics that could actually be used to determine that Nikon, Canon, or any other manufacturer is selling more cameras to "new photographers."

I believe Nikon has gained "switchers", who have dumped Canon in favor of a brand that offers them more dynamic range. I believe that because there are literally people who HAVE switched who've talked about it, blogged about it, and created videos about it. Wherever there is a vocal sample, there is a larger base from which that vocal sample comes from. There is information to back up the claim that Canon has lost some customers to Nikon due to existing Canon customers switching brands (or adding Nikon to their kit rather than getting a new Canon camera.) There is no information about how many such individuals there might be in total, though, and on the flip side there have definitely been people who've jumped off the Nikon ship to get a 5D III or a 1D X as well...so the net change could even be neutral.

Nikon Rumon just released the Nikon financial results, which are quite good in the DSLR market.
http://nikonrumors.com/2012/11/01/nikons-financial-results-for-the-first-half-of-the-year-are-out.aspx/ (http://nikonrumors.com/2012/11/01/nikons-financial-results-for-the-first-half-of-the-year-are-out.aspx/)
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: AG on November 01, 2012, 07:09:11 PM
Going on Nikons figures they are not really in a great place either.

381Billion Yen = $4.75 Billion USD Net sales (Up $705 Million USD from last year)
41.8 Billion Yen = $521,629,530.72 USD Operating income (Down $69.8 Million USD from last year)

So does this mean that if Nikon only made $521.6 Million(USD) they too couldn't make a Billion Dollars either?

Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: hsmoscout on November 01, 2012, 07:33:50 PM
This sucks. I was gonna get the 7D soon, but it looks like I'll have to wait :/
Is Canon trying to get more people to buy direct from Canon?? It seems like it with their whole "Holiday hushup" thing
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: Simba on November 02, 2012, 01:38:43 AM
Going on Nikons figures they are not really in a great place either.

381Billion Yen = $4.75 Billion USD Net sales (Up $705 Million USD from last year)
41.8 Billion Yen = $521,629,530.72 USD Operating income (Down $69.8 Million USD from last year)

So does this mean that if Nikon only made $521.6 Million(USD) they too couldn't make a Billion Dollars either?

Canon is a much bigger and diversified company, which not only sells cameras, but printers, scanners, camcorders, copy & fax machines, etc.  If you just consider DSLR cameras that most of us in this forum are interested, the sales of Canon is dropping, while Nikon is rising.  Nikon is quite profitable considering its small product lines.
Title: Re: Canon Can't Even Make a Billion Dollars Anymore
Post by: emag on November 02, 2012, 09:40:11 AM
Doesn't affect this amateur a whit; as for pros, I'll defer opinions on that to you pros.  If I can afford it and the Director of Acquisitions (my wife) is okay with it, I'll buy it.  I'll shop around and then find a way to pay over time for no interest if it's a big slug of bucks.  Dealers will find a way to add value to the deal to make for an attractive package at Canon's MAP.   I don't mind using 'last year's technology' if it works for me.  In a year the 5dIII won't suddenly stop taking nice photos, anymore than my 40D did after getting a 60D.   Improved lenses are a different animal, the best is really worth ponying up for.  I can see that MAP may help smaller and more local retailers who find it difficult to compete with the big boys.