canon rumors FORUM

Gear Talk => Canon General => Topic started by: Canon Rumors on November 01, 2012, 07:11:11 AM

Title: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: Canon Rumors on November 01, 2012, 07:11:11 AM
Things just got a bit more pricey
Canon is starting the enforcement of their MAP (Minimum Advertised Price) pricing rules today. Some camera bodies and lenses will see an immediate increase in their base price. Below are a few examples of the price increases, not including the current rebate program that expires on November 24, 2012.

Canon EOS 5D Mark III $3,499.00 from $3,149.00 Canon EOS 5D Mark III w/ EF 24-105mm f/4 L IS $4299.00 from $3949.00

Canon EOS 5D Mark II $2,199.00 from $2,099.00 Canon EOS 5D Mark II w/ EF 24-105mm f/4 L IS  $2,999 from $2,899.00

Canon EOS 7D $1,499.00 from $1,457.00 Canon EOS 7D w/ EF-S 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS Kit $1,899.00 from $1,699.00

There are a lot more examples through the Canon lineup. It’s going to be quite important to take advantage of rebate programs, as retailers are going to be unable to give their own deals via web sites. We may also see a lot more bundle deals coming down the pipe to add value to a purchase. Use our Pricewatch pages, and if you see a lower price somewhere, you should probably jump on it immediately, as it may not last long.

cr

Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: Canon-F1 on November 01, 2012, 07:21:59 AM
is this worldwide or only for north america?
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: stewy on November 01, 2012, 07:31:16 AM
This does not make me happy. Looks like I won't be buying a new camera this year afterall.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: AmbientLight on November 01, 2012, 07:33:50 AM
It is kind of sad for all the folks hoping for price drops due to Christmas sales.

Then again it may just be a local issue. Prices for Canon gear here in Switzerland are still the same as before.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: Fr3lncr on November 01, 2012, 07:35:05 AM
I just bought a 5D MKIII w 24-105 lit from B&H for $3750.  I was thinking before that maybe I should have waited.  I'm glad I didn't.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: Gothmoth on November 01, 2012, 07:36:34 AM
with these prices it will mean i just sell even more nikon stuff to new DSLR customers.  ::)
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: Bombsight on November 01, 2012, 07:39:18 AM
It means less new cameras sold & more 2nd hand cameras bought.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: markbyland on November 01, 2012, 07:39:29 AM
with these prices it will mean i just sell even more nikon stuff to new DSLR customers.  ::)
... at their MAP price.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: Gothmoth on November 01, 2012, 07:41:18 AM
with these prices it will mean i just sell even more nikon stuff to new DSLR customers.  ::)
... at their MAP price.

im a reseller i know that.

the problem is not MAP (im all for it as business man) .. the problem is canons (imo) overpricing of current gear.

canon could have adjusted the base price on this occasion to be more sane.

the D800 body can be bought for 2413 euro (amazon) in germany.

btw: with MAP or without i can´t match this price for the D800 in my shop.




Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: nonac on November 01, 2012, 08:10:12 AM
Glad I grabbed a 135 f/2 a couple of days ago for $879.  It's $989 now.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: Stuart on November 01, 2012, 08:11:23 AM
Does MAP ensure that supplier margins are preserved, and so competent suppliers can now offer a better service and real photography advice rather than continually being under cut by the box shifting chains?

No one likes high prices, or unnecessary fat in the supply chain but we do like support and advice we can trust.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: Gothmoth on November 01, 2012, 08:12:31 AM
Does MAP ensure that supplier margins are preserved, and so competent suppliers can now offer a better service and real photography advice rather than continually being under cut by the box shifting chains?

no... not really.

as mentioned a few times already, other manufactures do it forever.
it did not stop the big chains to offer sony gear (as example) cheaper then small shops can.

Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: Etienne on November 01, 2012, 08:48:28 AM
This does not make me happy. Looks like I won't be buying a new camera this year afterall.

My thoughts exactly. How depressing.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: Etienne on November 01, 2012, 08:55:23 AM
This does not make me happy. Looks like I won't be buying a new camera this year afterall.

.... I'll probably keep using my 5DII for another 6 - 12 months. Prices are just too high, and other manufacturer's products are increasingly tempting. It was all so much easier years ago, when Canon seemed like the obvious choice . 
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: cptobvious on November 01, 2012, 08:59:46 AM
I'm not brand-loyal (bought Canon, Nikon and Fuji) but to me, Canon's appeal over Nikon since Nikon started their unilateral pricing policy 1 year ago was the fact they allowed their authorized retailers to offer deeper discounts, particularly over the holidays.  It's one of the factors that made me sell my Nikon gear and move to Canon this year, despite my feeling that Canon was behind in the tech curve and overpricing their new releases.  Now that Canon's implemented this, I don't see see any reason to continue buying Canon. 

To me it's like when Sony dug their heels in when Samsung started eating their lunch in the video/audio electronics market.  Their approach was to go conservative with product development and keep prices high.  Now Sony is reeling and Canon is in the same boat.  I'm not against unilateral pricing per se (all of the major electronics corporations are now doing it), but Canon is going to fail unless they put out more compelling products to justify the price increase.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: Hector1970 on November 01, 2012, 09:02:46 AM
I could be wrong but I don't think the EU would allow this in Europe. This is akin to price fixing and anti-competition.
I think it's good for the Grey Market. I find it interesting people talking about good service in a shop and that the higher price supports this. I think a physical shop finds it hard to compete with a warehouse operation.
I've never had to go back to a shop yet so I'm not sure what kind of advice they give out nowadays. Most can't fix anything and probably don't know much more than the customers - who judging by Canon Rumors are very well informed about the products.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: Etienne on November 01, 2012, 09:06:13 AM
I could be wrong but I don't think the EU would allow this in Europe. This is akin to price fixing and anti-competition.
I think it's good for the Grey Market. I find it interesting people talking about good service in a shop and that the higher price supports this. I think a physical shop finds it hard to compete with a warehouse operation.
I've never had to go back to a shop yet so I'm not sure what kind of advice they give out nowadays. Most can't fix anything and probably don't know much more than the customers - who judging by Canon Rumors are very well informed about the products.

Good point! I have educated more than one salesperson about the features in Canon bodies, and even which lenses are available for them!

The sales people are there for sales, and many of them don't even like their jobs.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: ralphw on November 01, 2012, 09:20:23 AM
In the USA manufacturers can implement MAP's but - "when implementing a MAP policy, it is critical to establish a policy that controls the price at which products can be advertised but not the ultimate price at which the products may be sold."

This quote if from an article concerning U.S. Antitrust Laws (Sherman Act)

Link:   http://www.scottandscottllp.com/main/minimum_advertised_price.aspx (http://www.scottandscottllp.com/main/minimum_advertised_price.aspx)

I have purchased equipment from retailers below the MAP several times. I call them and ask for best prices, package deals, etc. The MAP price is for advertising, not for the ultimate selling price.

Regards,

-R
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: HurtinMinorKey on November 01, 2012, 09:39:19 AM
I have purchased equipment from retailers below the MAP several times. I call them and ask for best prices, package deals, etc. The MAP price is for advertising, not for the ultimate selling price.

Regards,

-R

Yes. MAP will force you to put things in your virtual shopping cart before you get to see the price, if it's below the MAP price (or get a rebate). Canon cannot restrict the finale sale price of the good (resale price maintenance) , that would be illegal. 
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: robbymack on November 01, 2012, 09:41:28 AM
In the USA manufacturers can implement MAP's but - "when implementing a MAP policy, it is critical to establish a policy that controls the price at which products can be advertised but not the ultimate price at which the products may be sold."

This quote if from an article concerning U.S. Antitrust Laws (Sherman Act)

Link:   http://www.scottandscottllp.com/main/minimum_advertised_price.aspx (http://www.scottandscottllp.com/main/minimum_advertised_price.aspx)

I have purchased equipment from retailers below the MAP several times. I call them and ask for best prices, package deals, etc. The MAP price is for advertising, not for the ultimate selling price.

Regards,

-R

Exactly, those that are smart enough to realize this just have to haggle a little. Essentially this is just an msrp, how many of you have bought a car at msrp?
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: sleepnever on November 01, 2012, 09:46:12 AM
I have purchased equipment from retailers below the MAP several times. I call them and ask for best prices, package deals, etc. The MAP price is for advertising, not for the ultimate selling price.

Regards,

-R

Yes. MAP will force you to put things in your virtual shopping cart before you get to see the price, if it's below the MAP price (or get a rebate). Canon cannot restrict the finale sale price of the good (resale price maintenance) , that would be illegal.

This should be added to CR's article on the front page in some form. It makes me breathe a sigh of relief to what I just read.

In the WTF are you thinking Canon, department... Really, the 5DMkII is higher priced than the new 6D? Hahah. And also as others said, why not take this opportunity to lower your prices a little bit to compete, since you know, you just reported a ton of lost revenue? Just a thought.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: zim on November 01, 2012, 09:53:25 AM
This does not make me happy. Looks like I won't be buying a new camera this year afterall.

+1 A simple elegant solution to a complex problem ;)
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: EOBeav on November 01, 2012, 09:55:07 AM
Glad I grabbed a 135 f/2 a couple of days ago for $879.  It's $989 now.

Dang, I was hoping that would be my next lens, too. Looks like I have a little more saving to do.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: dadgummit on November 01, 2012, 10:20:11 AM
If I am reading the original post correctly the MAP and the MSRP are one in the same to Canon?
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: dadgummit on November 01, 2012, 10:23:37 AM
One good thing about this though is the decision between the Olympus OM-d and the Canon EOS-M has been made.  If the EOS-m came down in price I would have gone that direction but now I will not expect this.  I will now invest in Micro 4/3 instead which is a much more mature/ proven product anyway.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: RLPhoto on November 01, 2012, 10:28:12 AM
Canon, Why do you do this? Err.....
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: madmailman on November 01, 2012, 10:28:26 AM
B&H are already offering a $200 "instant discount" on the MAP prices. Crisis averted. Well, almost.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: dadgummit on November 01, 2012, 10:28:48 AM
In the USA manufacturers can implement MAP's but - "when implementing a MAP policy, it is critical to establish a policy that controls the price at which products can be advertised but not the ultimate price at which the products may be sold."

This quote if from an article concerning U.S. Antitrust Laws (Sherman Act)

Link:   http://www.scottandscottllp.com/main/minimum_advertised_price.aspx (http://www.scottandscottllp.com/main/minimum_advertised_price.aspx)

I have purchased equipment from retailers below the MAP several times. I call them and ask for best prices, package deals, etc. The MAP price is for advertising, not for the ultimate selling price.

Regards,

-R

Hi Ralph,  If I am reading this correctly this means they have to advertize at the MAP but if Adorama just decides to price the 5d3 at $2800 on their web page/ ebay that is ok as long as they do not advertize the price in the news paper, e-mails, etc?
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: 87vr6 on November 01, 2012, 10:34:36 AM
Guess this is to make up that difference to 1 billion...

http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/10/canon-cant-even-make-a-billion-dollars-anymore/ (http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/10/canon-cant-even-make-a-billion-dollars-anymore/)
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: anim8r79 on November 01, 2012, 10:34:58 AM
I, too, was looking at the 135mm yesterday on Amazon for $879, and today it's $989.  I see that this matches B&H's price, which shows the rebate of $100 from the $1089 price.

I guess I'm a little confused...  I get the idea behind MAP, but why were these cheaper yesterday?  Did Amazon and B&H have them marked down, AND the lens rebate applied???

And couldn't these stores still offer them for the same price as yesterday, but hide the price, and only have it available at checkout, or virtual carts, or whatever they do to get around the MAP law in effect?
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: markbyland on November 01, 2012, 10:46:03 AM
I hate B & H.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: Wahoowa on November 01, 2012, 10:46:52 AM
Golf business has been this way for years. Retailers cannot even allow coupons to apply to their products.

Regarding the laws, I think there is always a loop hole both ways. Retailers can just advertise it as 'price too low to advertise' or they can list it on eBay. On the other hand, manufacturers can cut the retailers' account by saying the marketing strategy in the area has changed. I know one famous golf pro shop that usually sells their stuffs at a really really low price. Last time I called, their Ping account was cut for a year. That's why, if you're in golfing market, you'll see that most retailers won't risk advertising their prices below the minimum as required.

Now, back to photography. If, say, Adorama makes another spot sale on eBay for 5D Mark III for $2,750, we'll have to see how it pans out. Canon might not want to risk cutting big account like Adorama. But, who knows? B&H may put some pressure on Canon as well.

One thing for sure. I don't think anyone who wants Canon gear will find something cheap in the next few weeks from an authorized dealer.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: ajschot on November 01, 2012, 10:49:01 AM
Yes this will rise up Canons' sales  :o
Are they stupid? Now more people who will go digital will go for Nikon or Sony.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: preppyak on November 01, 2012, 10:52:39 AM
Are they stupid? Now more people who will go digital will go for Nikon or Sony.
You do realize Nikon and Sony have similar policies, and in fact, Nikons is one of the strictest I have seen. The only way to get deals on Nikon gear is to buy it in bundles (with a lens discount) or to get it refurbished. Try and find the D800 at less than retail, it just doesnt exist
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: dandai on November 01, 2012, 10:56:11 AM
I'm happy I went ahead and bought a new 5DII for $1699.  a month ago,instead of waiting for a lower price..
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: markbyland on November 01, 2012, 10:59:25 AM
Are they stupid? Now more people who will go digital will go for Nikon or Sony.
You do realize Nikon and Sony have similar policies, and in fact, Nikons is one of the strictest I have seen. The only way to get deals on Nikon gear is to buy it in bundles (with a lens discount) or to get it refurbished. Try and find the D800 at less than retail, it just doesnt exist
Exactly. The difference is that Sony and Nikon actually enforce their MAP policies and will not ship product if a dealer is found to be in violation of MAP. Canon just doesn't care about the small shops. That's been evident for years.

Also see: 'Series of Flaming Hoops to Jump Through' when applying for Canon dealership status.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: Scarpz13 on November 01, 2012, 11:00:18 AM
B&H are already offering a $200 "instant discount" on the MAP prices. Crisis averted. Well, almost.

I believe that $200 is just the current standard Canon Rebate program. I wanted to purchase the 70-200 F4 IS from B&H last week... it was $1049 after rebate. It said "Offer Ends Dec 1, 2012". I waited a week so I could have it on the next credit card cycle... now, *BOOM* price has gone up to $1149 after rebate. Guess I'm out a hundred bucks...
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: Gothmoth on November 01, 2012, 11:07:36 AM
Are they stupid? Now more people who will go digital will go for Nikon or Sony.
You do realize Nikon and Sony have similar policies, and in fact, Nikons is one of the strictest I have seen. The only way to get deals on Nikon gear is to buy it in bundles (with a lens discount) or to get it refurbished. Try and find the D800 at less than retail, it just doesnt exist

you do realize that the D800 is around 550-600 euros cheaper then the 5D MK3 ?

2413 euro body only on amazon vs. 3048 euro for the 5D MK3 here in germany.

http://www.amazon.de/Canon-SLR-Digitalkamera-Megapixel-CMOS-Sensor-Prozessor/dp/B007KKKJYK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1351782533&sr=8-1 (http://www.amazon.de/Canon-SLR-Digitalkamera-Megapixel-CMOS-Sensor-Prozessor/dp/B007KKKJYK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1351782533&sr=8-1)


http://www.amazon.de/Nikon-D800-SLR-Digitalkamera-Megapixel-Full-HD-Video/dp/B00763MHB4/ref=sr_1_1?s=ce-de&ie=UTF8&qid=1351782611&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.de/Nikon-D800-SLR-Digitalkamera-Megapixel-Full-HD-Video/dp/B00763MHB4/ref=sr_1_1?s=ce-de&ie=UTF8&qid=1351782611&sr=1-1)


MSRP for the D800 = 2899 €
MSRP for the 5D MK3 =3299 €

there goes your theory....
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: sharkcalgary on November 01, 2012, 11:23:49 AM
Is Canon getting lost, lost in the sense like many giant companys that are going down in a spiral and making questionable business decisions along the way, that type of lost?

Other companies has started to catch up Canon's sensor technology after the release of 5D2.  I could understand if they implemented the MAP back then, as there weren't any alternatives.
But implementing a MAP now when clearly the competition offering is not much different than Canon's, I just can't understand why.

Instead of focusing on preserving their prices margin and price enforcement over the regions, maybe Canon should spend more time and energy improving their sensor technology and coming up with camers like they did when they wow'ed the photography world with 5D and 5D2.

I started with a 300D and now own a 5D2.  I almost purchased the 5D3 when the price dipped down to $2799, but the embargo to Canada was in place so I was unable to purchase it.  Now, Canon has also established a MAP, forcing the same advertisement price everywhere.

What this means to me is to postpone my spending, and to wait it out or skip 5D3 all together. Consumers spend a lot around the Black Friday/CyberMonday/Christmas period, and now Canon put in a MAP.  I don't think this is a wise move, I am sure the next quarter's result will tell .  I surely hope Canon will reconsider its stance on MAP, especially its embargo to Canada from US on certain products.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: drs on November 01, 2012, 11:24:13 AM
If I get this right, I might delay the replacement of my 5Dm2 and some lenses like the 24-70L.
These were scheduled for this quarter, but perhaps I should "focus" on something else for a while.
The 5Dm2 is certainly good for another year.

Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: photug on November 01, 2012, 11:31:53 AM
This stinks. >:(

I was going back-and-forth on the 5d mk ii and the week before last the body only price at Fry's was on sale for  $1619!  Yesterday it was $1799 which is $2199 minus the $400 instant Canon rebate.

I should have got it then! :(

Tug
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: Greg_M on November 01, 2012, 11:33:41 AM
If I get this right, I might delay the replacement of my 5Dm2 and some lenses like the 24-70L.
These were scheduled for this quarter, but perhaps I should "focus" on something else for a while.
The 5Dm2 is certainly good for another year.


That's what I plan to do too.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: LordMicaTheGreat on November 01, 2012, 11:34:23 AM
http://www.canon.ch/cashback/ (http://www.canon.ch/cashback/)
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: preppyak on November 01, 2012, 11:35:30 AM
there goes your theory....
Except the original post is all in US dollars, referring to US retailer sites. Why would I look further into UK pricing when the MAP has no effect on it. Especially when most of those sites don't even ship internationally at those prices.

It doesn't blow up my "theory" at all, because its not cheaper for a US customer to buy it in the UK and have it shipped here (it'd be $3200+ for a D800, for example). I'm still unaware of any site that allows an authorized Nikon dealer to sell a Nikon camera for less than full US retail. That your starting prices are wildly inflated and they give discounts that mean you only overpay by 10% instead of 30% is one thing, but, its only loosely related to this policy.

In the US, before the increase, the 5DMark III was cheaper than the D800 by a few hundred bucks. So if Canon is strict about this like Nikon has been in the US, it could hurt them. Especially if it means the 5dIII is selling near retail and they aren't aggressive with their instant rebates. But that remains to be seen.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: ablearcher on November 01, 2012, 11:38:45 AM
My question is - now that everybody knows what the fair market price of the camera is (quite below $3K) - how many bodies Canon is hoping to sell with MAP being enforced?  :o Do they really expect customers to pay MSRP now??  ???  Is Canon even paying ANY attention with what is going on in the market these days?
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: Gothmoth on November 01, 2012, 11:59:19 AM
there goes your theory....
Except the original post is all in US dollars, referring to US retailer sites. Why would I look further into UK pricing when the MAP has no effect on it. Especially when most of those sites don't even ship internationally at those prices.

there is a world outside the usa....

that is why most people (like i do) mention the country they are speaking about.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: robbymack on November 01, 2012, 11:59:49 AM
Goodness some of you need to calm down. The world has not ended. Canon has just decided to enforce their policy which simply means authorized retailers cannot advertise (in print, online, etc) a price below their msrp. That just means the price you see in the official canon online store will be the same across the internet.  If they do advertise it lower then they risk losing canon as a supplier. Secondly those of you who think canon makes any more or less money off the msrp are dillusional. They sell it to a retailer who in turns sells it to you for msrp or whatever you agree upon.  That transaction is between you and the retailer not you and canon. If you don't like it please feel free to check out Sony and Nikon who do the exact same thing just have actually been enforcing their policies unlike canon. Sony is notorious for their map pricing requirements across the entire gambit if their electronics empire. this doesn't mean the end of all "deals". The unauthorized sellers don't care about map pricing, and if you don't care about warrantee issues or have done business with that shop (or better its your local camera store) and know they will honor any issue then you are golden. In the end this is much ado about nothing.

Lastly, I know this will drive some of you bonkers, the big stores (BH, adorama, best buy, ET al) love this. It means no one can undercut them on an advertised price if they are an authorized seller.  It means your local shops who doesnt have the buying power to get better deals out of the supplier are squeezed even further likely requiring them to either drop authorized status or raise their in store price which in turn drives more customers to the big stores who are happy making more money off you when you don't bother to negotiate price. You feel good because you saved money over local camera store, but realistically you just made the big box store very happy because their margin on this item is twice what the local stores is and you still think you got a super deal. It's sad, but it's crony capitalism at its finest.

Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: lopicma on November 01, 2012, 12:01:52 PM
LOL!  Looks like the stock holders have spoken!

My suspicions that the great pricing was set by the market and NOT the company have been confirmed.  Another black eye for capitalism.   :o
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: Stone on November 01, 2012, 12:24:43 PM
I was never really thrilled with the price of the 5DIII for what you get anyways.  I've almost purchased it at least 3 times but always managed to talk myself out of it.  We'll see how long this MAP pricing lasts, the camera isn't exactly flying off the shelves these days.  I'm not worried, the market will settle this....
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: Dylan777 on November 01, 2012, 12:26:21 PM
+1 with Canon on this subject.

Alot of people said:
1.  " early adopters always pay for premium price tag"
2. " You get to play wiith camera before us"
3. " Demand and supply law"

I say if you think $3500 is too much for 5D III then switch to Nikon. or get the mrk II. 

Allowed 20%ish price drop on new & hot body is unacceptable. Canon needs to keep their reputation as leader in this market.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: Greg_M on November 01, 2012, 12:29:25 PM
Goodness some of you need to calm down. The world has not ended. Canon has just decided to enforce their policy which simply means authorized retailers cannot advertise (in print, online, etc) a price below their msrp. That just means the price you see in the official canon online store will be the same across the internet.  If they do advertise it lower then they risk losing canon as a supplier. Secondly those of you who think canon makes any more or less money off the msrp are dillusional. They sell it to a retailer who in turns sells it to you for msrp or whatever you agree upon.  That transaction is between you and the retailer not you and canon. If you don't like it please feel free to check out Sony and Nikon who do the exact same thing just have actually been enforcing their policies unlike canon. Sony is notorious for their map pricing requirements across the entire gambit if their electronics empire. this doesn't mean the end of all "deals". The unauthorized sellers don't care about map pricing, and if you don't care about warrantee issues or have done business with that shop (or better its your local camera store) and know they will honor any issue then you are golden. In the end this is much ado about nothing.

Lastly, I know this will drive some of you bonkers, the big stores (BH, adorama, best buy, ET al) love this. It means no one can undercut them on an advertised price if they are an authorized seller.  It means your local shops who doesnt have the buying power to get better deals out of the supplier are squeezed even further likely requiring them to either drop authorized status or raise their in store price which in turn drives more customers to the big stores who are happy making more money off you when you don't bother to negotiate price. You feel good because you saved money over local camera store, but realistically you just made the big box store very happy because their margin on this item is twice what the local stores is and you still think you got a super deal. It's sad, but it's crony capitalism at its finest.




Well if B&H "loves it" then they will really love that I will not be buying the Canon- 24-105mm f/4L IS EF USM AF Lens USA OR the B+W- 77mm UV Haze MRC 010M Filter to go on it OR the B+W- 77mm Kaesemann Circular Polarizer MRC Filter to go on it OR the Bower- CS77 77mm Pro Snap-On Lens Cap to go on it OR the Sensei- 62-77mm Filter Wrench (Set of 2) to undo any stuck filters.

I had planned to buy all the above items next week, but I won't now. They are probably rolling on the floor laughing insanely, right?

 >:(
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: ablearcher on November 01, 2012, 12:32:41 PM
Allowed 20%ish price drop on new & hot body is unacceptable. Canon needs to keep their reputation as leader in this market.

Allowing this camera to be so heavily overpriced is unacceptable. Enforcing this price tag and not allowing the market to have it at its fair price is outrageous.

With all the sub $3K deals showing the real place for this body in today's market, good luck to Canon selling it now at MSRP.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: unfocused on November 01, 2012, 12:41:34 PM
People are mixing apples and oranges here.

Apples: Canon's retail prices.

Oranges: Canon's minimum advertised price policies.

On the "apples" side: legitimate questions can be made and debated about whether or not Canon is charging too much for some products in relation to either market demand or perceived value. That's a constant subject of debate on this forum with opinions ranging from the delusional and paranoid to those who have no financial constraints and would buy anything with a Canon brand on it. Regardless of what you think the "proper" price should be, that really has no relevance to MAP pricing policies.

On the "oranges" side: Canon is moving to enforce its Minimum Advertised Price policies, which exist to bring price uniformity to its dealer network. On a related thread, another individual posted a link to a Wikipedia article that explains the legal history of MAP pretty well. No point in repeating that. They are legal and they are used by many manufacturers. The simplest summary might be to say that manufacturers cannot tell a retailer what price to actually charge for a product – which is a private transaction between the buyer and seller. But, they can say what price the retailer can advertise the product for sale at.

MAP, as others have pointed out, has absolutely no bearing on Canon's own profit margin. The price that Canon charges its resellers is not being increased.

Why have MAP? To level the playing field between retailers. It is not in the best interests of either the manufacturer or the consumer to allow a single large retailer to undercut all other sellers to the point that they drive the other sellers out of business and create a monopolistic situation where the manufacturer and customer are both totally depending on the whims of one retailer.

Using the 5DIII as an example, we can all see how the lax enforcement of MAP has impacted pricing and the market over the past several months. Canon's MSRP has never changed, but the "street price" has fluctuated wildly. Great news for individual buyers, but a real problem for the network because retailers have no assurance that when they play by the rules they won't be undercut by someone who is gaming the system.

Canon has a dilemma here. If they turn a blind eye to the violators, they risk alienating their dealer network and undercutting their own ability to compete in the marketplace. So, they have moved to enforce what they view as the "real" and "correct" prices for their products.

Which brings us all back to the "apples." The recent "bargain" pricing of the 5DIII seems to show that the "correct" price may be out of line with the marketplace. If that is the case, it will correct itself over time and there is little that either Canon or its dealer network can do to stop that.

Let the marketplace sort it out. If Canon's prices are too high, demand will drop. Canon will be forced to adjust the price and retailers will find new ways around MAP.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: libertyranger on November 01, 2012, 12:45:40 PM
Amazon still has the 5DIII at 2995.00. You just have to click to see the price :)
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: Zv on November 01, 2012, 12:52:17 PM
Sorry for my ignorance, but is this only in the US? I haven't noticed any changes to advertised prices on Amazon.jp, should I be buying up my wishlist?

Update - thanks Unfocused for clearing all that up!
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: cliffwang on November 01, 2012, 12:57:20 PM
Is Canon marketing team working for Nikon?  If Canon wants to have MAP policy, Canon has better have reasonable list prices.  Canon is going to loss more market share.

Can those authorized dealers still sell Canon products @ reasonable prices via eBay?
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: ablearcher on November 01, 2012, 12:58:42 PM
Sorry for my ignorance, but is this only in the US? I haven't noticed any changes to advertised prices on Amazon.jp, should I be buying up my wishlist?

I see Canadian prices went up.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: cptobvious on November 01, 2012, 01:39:11 PM
Just to clarify the post above, this is not a MAP (minimum advertised price) policy.  This is a UPP (unilateral pricing policy).  The difference is that under MAPs, a retailer can use workarounds like "Add to Cart to see lower price" to offer discounts, whereas with UPPs they can't (well, they can, but the manufacturer will strong-arm them not to by threatening to cut their supply off).  UPPs used to be considered illegal price fixing until a 2007 U.S. Supreme Court ruling changed that.

Quite a few manufacturers use UPPs now...Apple, Sony, Samsung, Nikon, Pentax, Canon, to name a few.

As to how they affect the industry, it's hard to say.  The manufacturer may benefit indirectly from keeping the perceived value of its products up (no more promotions that might create an expectation for lower prices, like those sub-$3000 5D3 sales).  B&M stores and smaller retailers benefit over larger stores like Amazon, B&H, etc.  Consumers ultimately pay more because retailers are prohibited from competing against each other based on price.  When an entire industry does it (I know this is the case for musical instruments, maybe smartphones) it almost creates an anti-competitive effect, because manufacturers can effectively collude with each other not to drop prices below minimum levels.  That's how it seems the DSLR industry is shaping up to be. 
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: Mt Spokane Photography on November 01, 2012, 01:40:15 PM
I would not worry too much, there is still a wide range of prices at various dealers, even authorized resellers.
http://www.canonpricewatch.com/product/03868/Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-III-price.html (http://www.canonpricewatch.com/product/03868/Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-III-price.html)
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: Chuck Alaimo on November 01, 2012, 02:07:30 PM
B&H are already offering a $200 "instant discount" on the MAP prices. Crisis averted. Well, almost.

????? The list price on an mk3 was $3199 with an extra $200 off in rebates...so the $200 rebate is the same as it was before
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: Chuck Alaimo on November 01, 2012, 02:10:08 PM
Glad I grabbed a 135 f/2 a couple of days ago for $879.  It's $989 now.

Dang, I was hoping that would be my next lens, too. Looks like I have a little more saving to do.


I am seriously kicking myself --- a 135L popped on the used page at b&h yesterday for like $770.  I passed on it because, well, if i can get the new one for only a hundred more why not just wait.  Bad move I guess - cause now its $990 with a $100 off in rebate...
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: joemod on November 01, 2012, 03:37:11 PM
People are mixing apples and oranges here.

Apples: Canon's retail prices.

Oranges: Canon's minimum advertised price policies.

On the "apples" side: legitimate questions can be made and debated about whether or not Canon is charging too much for some products in relation to either market demand or perceived value. That's a constant subject of debate on this forum with opinions ranging from the delusional and paranoid to those who have no financial constraints and would buy anything with a Canon brand on it. Regardless of what you think the "proper" price should be, that really has no relevance to MAP pricing policies.

On the "oranges" side: Canon is moving to enforce its Minimum Advertised Price policies, which exist to bring price uniformity to its dealer network. On a related thread, another individual posted a link to a Wikipedia article that explains the legal history of MAP pretty well. No point in repeating that. They are legal and they are used by many manufacturers. The simplest summary might be to say that manufacturers cannot tell a retailer what price to actually charge for a product – which is a private transaction between the buyer and seller. But, they can say what price the retailer can advertise the product for sale at.

MAP, as others have pointed out, has absolutely no bearing on Canon's own profit margin. The price that Canon charges its resellers is not being increased.

Why have MAP? To level the playing field between retailers. It is not in the best interests of either the manufacturer or the consumer to allow a single large retailer to undercut all other sellers to the point that they drive the other sellers out of business and create a monopolistic situation where the manufacturer and customer are both totally depending on the whims of one retailer.

Using the 5DIII as an example, we can all see how the lax enforcement of MAP has impacted pricing and the market over the past several months. Canon's MSRP has never changed, but the "street price" has fluctuated wildly. Great news for individual buyers, but a real problem for the network because retailers have no assurance that when they play by the rules they won't be undercut by someone who is gaming the system.

Canon has a dilemma here. If they turn a blind eye to the violators, they risk alienating their dealer network and undercutting their own ability to compete in the marketplace. So, they have moved to enforce what they view as the "real" and "correct" prices for their products.

Which brings us all back to the "apples." The recent "bargain" pricing of the 5DIII seems to show that the "correct" price may be out of line with the marketplace. If that is the case, it will correct itself over time and there is little that either Canon or its dealer network can do to stop that.

Let the marketplace sort it out. If Canon's prices are too high, demand will drop. Canon will be forced to adjust the price and retailers will find new ways around MAP.
Thanks very much for this great explanation. You made it all clear.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: joshmurrah on November 01, 2012, 04:54:37 PM
Amazon is now complying with the price set by Canon, the 5D3 body is up to 3299 (after 200 rebate)

I was hoping they'd do the "add to cart to see price", but appearantly Canon will match Nikon's draconian policy regarding pricing.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: stewy on November 01, 2012, 05:16:05 PM
I think that this is a sign. At one point I was thinking about waiting until the 5D4 is released or some other great camera. However, the lower price tags was starting to tempt me. I'm already spent enough money on other things for this Christmas, but I was looking forward to picking one up around Feb. next year. Now that the price has gone back up, I'm just going to sit this one out and keep using my 40D. Or maybe I can get a used 5DII.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: cthetoy on November 01, 2012, 05:28:37 PM
Amazon is now complying with the price set by Canon, the 5D3 body is up to 3299 (after 200 rebate)

I was hoping they'd do the "add to cart to see price", but appearantly Canon will match Nikon's draconian policy regarding pricing.

Luckily I saw the price on Amazon for $2994 still earlier this morning. Went to Best Buy and they matched it as it showed $2994.00. Bought it from Best Buy because of the zero interest for 18 months. Amazon is now $3299.00 :(
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: DB on November 01, 2012, 05:36:33 PM
+1 with Canon on this subject.

Alot of people said:
1.  " early adopters always pay for premium price tag"
2. " You get to play wiith camera before us"
3. " Demand and supply law"

I say if you think $3500 is too much for 5D III then switch to Nikon. or get the mrk II. 

Allowed 20%ish price drop on new & hot body is unacceptable. Canon needs to keep their reputation as leader in this market.

Have to agree wholeheartedly with Dylan777 on this, just read a review of 4 HD digital cameras in the December issue of HD Video Pro (the Arri Alexa vs RED Epic vs Canon EOS 5D Mark III vs Sony F65) and the reviewers conclude that the 5D3 @ $3500 is an ABSOLUTE STEAL given the improved S/N ratio, clean footage up to 12,800 ISO, lack of line skipping, reduced moire and aliasing over its predecessor the 5D2 and so on.

I know that many photographer's out there would like to buy this DSLR for about a grand, but you know what you cannot get a Porsche Turbo for twenty grand. Lot of tech = higher price. And there are enough people out there who will pay full retail for this Canon product w/out complaining.

Canon have to control the prices of their products (to a degree), not just to create a level-playing field amongst retailers, but to preserve residual values....otherwise they will have zero incentive to spend R&D on new tech. If all dslr prices were to continuously fall, then Canon could not charge full retail price on new products => lower sales => lower R&D spend (as R&D is a fixed set % of net sales). If you want $99 digital 12MP cam, buy P&S.

Price-fixing is illegal, so is operating a price cartel, but these MAP are neither, as Canon has not changed the cost of these products to the wholesaler/retailer, instead just ensuring that they (Canon Inc.) dictate selling prices and not allow a French discount electronics hypermarket like Boulanger (for instance) to set Canon's prices for them (as has happened recently e.g.  €2,700 for a 5D3 or 800 euros less than elsewhere in Europe). Boulanger did not spend a dime developing the new 22.3MP sensor in the 5D3, so why should they dictate price for the market, just because they can buy in bulk and are willing to 'box-shift' product as a 'loss-leader' then hoping to make profits on lens + accessories?

I believe in cause and effect. Do you not think that recent price discounting like the aforementioned on both sides of the Atlantic has had anything to do with Canon's new MAP? (clue: no such thing as a double-coincidence in life or nature).
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: GMCPhotographics on November 01, 2012, 05:45:29 PM
Well, in the UK it's still called price fixing and it's illegal.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: DB on November 01, 2012, 06:14:09 PM
Well, in the UK it's still called price fixing and it's illegal.

No it is not. There is NO COLLUSION to artificially keep prices higher than they would be otherwise. It is a direct policy to STOP discount retailers from using a product as a 'loss leader' that will directly harm the sales of smaller competitors as well as the original equipment manufacturer.

Do you think the British government would tolerate Tesco, Asda or Sainsbury selling Cans of Heineken for 1 pence? Extreme example, but it 100% proves my point. Answer: no they would not and Heineken - the Dutch brewing company would make sure that any supermarket that did that would find the next delivery quantity = 0 (forever). And do you know what, Heineken would be absolutely right and why should a retailer cheapen their premium brand.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: zim on November 01, 2012, 06:17:53 PM
If you’re a pro and it fits your business plan ignore this, everyone else…….. my god people the solution is simple, as stewy said don’t buy the bloody thing!
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: DB on November 01, 2012, 06:24:34 PM
If you’re a pro and it fits your business plan ignore this, everyone else…….. my god people the solution is simple, as stewy said don’t buy the bloody thing!
+1

Problem is though...people on CR want to buy the bloody thing, but do not wish to pay full price (dilemma :-[)
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: ndkohlman on November 01, 2012, 06:40:10 PM
I think Canon's gear is already over priced and while I have a 10D as well as a 5D mkII since Oct 2011 as well as 3 pieces of Canon glass I am in no way going to do any upgrading now, I was hoping the prices were going to come down. I wanted to pick up a couple extra speedlights but there is no way I am spending what Canon wants for a new 600ex flash(I have resorted to purchasing second hand equipment, which is starting to creep up as well) I wanted to purchase a wide angle zoom, either the 16-35, 17-40 or possible the new 24-70 but that is going to wait now as well.

All purchases and upgrades are on hold.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: neuroanatomist on November 01, 2012, 06:42:25 PM
Problem is though...people on CR want to buy the bloody thing, but do not wish to pay full price (dilemma :-[)

Yes, people on CR want to buy the every bloody thing, but do not wish to pay full price

What else is news?  Why are we even discussing this?  Anyone who jumped on the lower price should be happy they had a bit of notice - it's like planning to sell a stock, and being told today that the share price will drop tomorrow.  Anyone who sat on the fence and must now pay more, it's unfortunate, but that's life.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: DB on November 01, 2012, 06:48:11 PM
I think Canon's gear is already over priced and while I have a 10D as well as a 5D mkII since Oct 2011 as well as 3 pieces of Canon glass I am in no way going to do any upgrading now, I was hoping the prices were going to come down. I wanted to pick up a couple extra speedlights but there is no way I am spending what Canon wants for a new 600ex flash(I have resorted to purchasing second hand equipment, which is starting to creep up as well) I wanted to purchase a wide angle zoom, either the 16-35, 17-40 or possible the new 24-70 but that is going to wait now as well.

All purchases and upgrades are on hold.

Good for you! Keep buying 'used' and support residual values...meanwhile Canon will do their bit to preserve residual values too :P
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: robbymack on November 01, 2012, 06:51:30 PM
Goodness some of you need to calm down. The world has not ended. Canon has just decided to enforce their policy which simply means authorized retailers cannot advertise (in print, online, etc) a price below their msrp. That just means the price you see in the official canon online store will be the same across the internet.  If they do advertise it lower then they risk losing canon as a supplier. Secondly those of you who think canon makes any more or less money off the msrp are dillusional. They sell it to a retailer who in turns sells it to you for msrp or whatever you agree upon.  That transaction is between you and the retailer not you and canon. If you don't like it please feel free to check out Sony and Nikon who do the exact same thing just have actually been enforcing their policies unlike canon. Sony is notorious for their map pricing requirements across the entire gambit if their electronics empire. this doesn't mean the end of all "deals". The unauthorized sellers don't care about map pricing, and if you don't care about warrantee issues or have done business with that shop (or better its your local camera store) and know they will honor any issue then you are golden. In the end this is much ado about nothing.

Lastly, I know this will drive some of you bonkers, the big stores (BH, adorama, best buy, ET al) love this. It means no one can undercut them on an advertised price if they are an authorized seller.  It means your local shops who doesnt have the buying power to get better deals out of the supplier are squeezed even further likely requiring them to either drop authorized status or raise their in store price which in turn drives more customers to the big stores who are happy making more money off you when you don't bother to negotiate price. You feel good because you saved money over local camera store, but realistically you just made the big box store very happy because their margin on this item is twice what the local stores is and you still think you got a super deal. It's sad, but it's crony capitalism at its finest.
[/



Well if B&H "loves it" then they will really love that I will not be buying the Canon- 24-105mm f/4L IS EF USM AF Lens USA OR the B+W- 77mm UV Haze MRC 010M Filter to go on it OR the B+W- 77mm Kaesemann Circular Polarizer MRC Filter to go on it OR the Bower- CS77 77mm Pro Snap-On Lens Cap to go on it OR the Sensei- 62-77mm Filter Wrench (Set of 2) to undo any stuck filters.

I had planned to buy all the above items next week, but I won't now. They are probably rolling on the floor laughing insanely, right?

 >:(

Somehow I don't think BH is going to lose much sleep over your decision, thousands of others aren't too likely to get upset over a 100 difference here and there on a 1000 item especially when the past price is no longer good (sorry my flux capacitor bit the dust and my dolorian has been totaled). And at some point you'll bite the bullet. Or maybe you bought one off of big value inc sale today on eBay. So you traded a warrantee for a lower price. Everything has its price.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: cliffwang on November 01, 2012, 07:00:57 PM
Problem is though...people on CR want to buy the bloody thing, but do not wish to pay full price (dilemma :-[)

Yes, people on CR want to buy the every bloody thing, but do not wish to pay full price

What else is news?  Why are we even discussing this?  Anyone who jumped on the lower price should be happy they had a bit of notice - it's like planning to sell a stock, and being told today that the share price will drop tomorrow.  Anyone who sat on the fence and must now pay more, it's unfortunate, but that's life.

That's why many people like to see people pay for full price because they did.  I actually wonder how the new policy will impact Canon's business.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: Rodknee on November 01, 2012, 07:05:17 PM
You can buy a 600d for less than a 550d, does anybody know if that is due to he vagaries of MAP or is there some other reason?
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: Dylan777 on November 01, 2012, 07:15:20 PM
Problem is though...people on CR want to buy the bloody thing, but do not wish to pay full price (dilemma :-[)

Yes, people on CR want to buy the every bloody thing, but do not wish to pay full price

What else is news?  Why are we even discussing this?  Anyone who jumped on the lower price should be happy they had a bit of notice - it's like planning to sell a stock, and being told today that the share price will drop tomorrow.  Anyone who sat on the fence and must now pay more, it's unfortunate, but that's life.

That's why many people like to see people pay for full price because they did.  I actually wonder how the new policy will impact Canon's business.

Business will move forward. If $3500 is too much for 5D III, Canon offers 6D for less. Attach rumor 24-70 f4 IS = perfect kit for newbie to me.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: gmrza on November 01, 2012, 07:23:27 PM
Problem is though...people on CR want to buy the bloody thing, but do not wish to pay full price (dilemma :-[)

Yes, people on CR want to buy the every bloody thing, but do not wish to pay full price

What else is news?  Why are we even discussing this?  Anyone who jumped on the lower price should be happy they had a bit of notice - it's like planning to sell a stock, and being told today that the share price will drop tomorrow.  Anyone who sat on the fence and must now pay more, it's unfortunate, but that's life.

People who are complaining are obviously not negotiating hard enough, or being nice enough to the sales rep. ;-)
My wife got a ST-E3, 82mm filter, 2 LP-E6 batteries, 32GB SD card and some other odds and ends thrown in when she bought a 5DIII, 24-70 f/2.9 and 600EX-RT.

One trick that never fails: send your wife to buy gear!

There is nothing wrong with believing in not paying full price - if you believe in that, get your strategy together to get a good price!
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: AlberD on November 01, 2012, 08:30:38 PM
My wallet is happy because of the recent price hikes. It will be fatter.

4-5 years back when you could stack up instant rebates and coupons I ended up spending on Canon gear more than on a decent brand new car (and I was leaning towards Nikon at the time). I kept what I liked, and sold the rest without losing much $ (cheaper than rental). It was irresistible and shocking at the same time, I didn't plan on spending even 1/4 that much. Today I'd rather buy second hand than pay ransom prices for new gear. I'll just stretch my gear replacement cycle,... no more 5 cameras in 5 years, more like 1 in 5y.

This MAP thingie just means that even the second hand goods will be more expensive, which in turn means that it will be easier to skip brands as the field is levelled. I have no brand nor shop loyalty.

Vote with you wallets, not with words. Big kahuna execs don't read Internet forums, they read their bottom lines.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: stewy on November 01, 2012, 08:32:18 PM
Here I thought that Canon would drop the price to be more competitive, and hence push me over the edge to get one. I was so close. I'll know better next time. I'll get the 5D Mark IV or 1DX Mark II on day one. What's the point of waiting a year if I still have to pay full price (or close to full price) when a new model will be released in the next 3-4 years? I'll start saving from now.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: Dylan777 on November 01, 2012, 08:40:54 PM
My wallet is happy because of the recent price hikes. It will be fatter.

4-5 years back when you could stack up instant rebates and coupons I ended up spending on Canon gear more than on a decent brand new car (and I was leaning towards Nikon at the time). I kept what I liked, and sold the rest without losing much $ (cheaper than rental). It was irresistible and shocking at the same time, I didn't plan on spending even 1/4 that much. Today I'd rather buy second hand than pay ransom prices for new gear. I'll just stretch my gear replacement cycle,... no more 5 cameras in 5 years, more like 1 in 5y.

This MAP thingie just means that even the second hand goods will be more expensive, which in turn means that it will be easier to skip brands as the field is levelled. I have no brand nor shop loyalty.

Vote with you wallets, not with words. Big kahuna execs don't read Internet forums, they read their bottom lines.

How often do you hear this? Even, some of the long time posters tried to switch brands, at the end, he went back to his original root. ;)

The grass always seems to be greener, until you jump over. Goodluck and see you back here soon.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: Etienne on November 01, 2012, 09:50:28 PM
If I get this right, I might delay the replacement of my 5Dm2 and some lenses like the 24-70L.
These were scheduled for this quarter, but perhaps I should "focus" on something else for a while.
The 5Dm2 is certainly good for another year.


That's what I plan to do too.

Me too.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: Etienne on November 01, 2012, 10:01:58 PM
There's a psychological thing for me:  I find it very difficult to pay $3300 today for a camera for which many people paid $2800 yesterday.

Not gonna happen!

My 5DII still produces great pics, I could easily wait for a 5D IV, or something nikon or sony has in a couple of years.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: tron on November 01, 2012, 10:15:08 PM
If I get this right, I might delay the replacement of my 5Dm2 and some lenses like the 24-70L.
These were scheduled for this quarter, but perhaps I should "focus" on something else for a while.
The 5Dm2 is certainly good for another year.


That's what I plan to do too.

Me too.
In Europe normally prices for the 5DMkIII range between 3000 and 3500. For example Amazon.de had it for 3050 then lowered it to 2950 and  now it is again 3050. No radical changes. I was happy to find a deal for about 2700euros. Now I have a lot of lenses. In addition I am an amateur and I do not need anything badly (a 500mm f/4L IS II would be nice but ... I'll think about it in 3-4 years...) so yes no more gear anyway.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: steliosk on November 01, 2012, 10:56:28 PM
canon will commit suicide
their products prices are way to high to increse more...
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: tron on November 01, 2012, 11:04:24 PM
canon will commit suicide
their products prices are way to high to increase more...
Christmas is coming and instead of lowering their prizes they increase them. I guess you are right. We will see.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: Nishi Drew on November 01, 2012, 11:16:53 PM
If I get this right, I might delay the replacement of my 5Dm2 and some lenses like the 24-70L.
These were scheduled for this quarter, but perhaps I should "focus" on something else for a while.
The 5Dm2 is certainly good for another year.


That's what I plan to do too.

Me too.

Same here
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: RC on November 02, 2012, 12:19:41 AM
Phew!  Glad I pulled the trigger for the 5D3 on Monday because I see Canon has pushed the price back up by $300.   This morning (Thursday) it was $2994, tonight it is $3299.   I think it was only under $3000 for 3 or 4 days.  Didn't get the ebay deal of $2750, but I'm very happy I got it for under 3k at an authorized dealer.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: cliffwang on November 02, 2012, 12:47:39 AM
There's a psychological thing for me:  I find it very difficult to pay $3300 today for a camera for which many people paid $2800 yesterday.

Not gonna happen!

My 5DII still produces great pics, I could easily wait for a 5D IV, or something nikon or sony has in a couple of years.

My colleague missed the 2750 5D3 deal and is waiting similar deals.  When I told him the MAP pricing, he told me "That's fine, I can still using my current camera".  I think Canon is just going to loss many customers; especially for 5D3 buyers because people know there was a 2750 5D3 deal.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: DB on November 02, 2012, 01:09:34 AM
@ tron & RC, well done, you both spotted a bargain and got a good deal

@ Etienne, it is human nature to worry about what others did or didn't do (in this instance 'pay'), but you should only worry about yourself. Two years ago, the graduating MBA class at Harvard University were given a survey questionnaire with 2 options and were asked to specify which they would prefer:

(1) to get a job paying $200,000 per year, whilst the rest of your class secure jobs paying $250,000

or

(2) secure a job paying a starting salary of $120,000, whilst your classmates get jobs on $80,000

The result: the majority opted for (2) :o They were more concerned with relative position and rankings than absolute income. The moral of this story: forget what someone else paid for a DSLR, and focus on whether in the future a new DSLR would suit your needs, then save the necessary cash to get what you desire.

If everyone followed your logic (based on the psychology of what others have paid for an identical product) then Europeans would not buy Canon DSLR's or lenses at +25% to +50% more than what Americans pay today for the same models. In my country, a 5D3 costs US$4,420 (or €3,399 x 1.30) and that price has dropped 200 euros.

@ cliffwang, if you spend your life waiting for the price to reach your level, you'll end up either waiting a very long time, or you will end up buying antiquated technology (I can get a 1D II for less than I paid for my 7D, but I do not want an 8MP body that cannot go above ISO 3200). Canon may lose some customers , or rather, should I say some existing Canon shooters may defer their purchase, but ultimately they will upgrade at some point in the future and they'll get a better used price for their existing body as a result of this policy.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: gmrza on November 02, 2012, 05:25:39 AM
There's a psychological thing for me:  I find it very difficult to pay $3300 today for a camera for which many people paid $2800 yesterday.

Not gonna happen!

My 5DII still produces great pics, I could easily wait for a 5D IV, or something nikon or sony has in a couple of years.

If many people react the same way as you, the MAP will come down, plain and simple.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: bbasiaga on November 02, 2012, 08:45:47 AM
MAP pricining doesn't mean things won't go on sale, or that there won't be reabates, or that the MAP pricing won't change over the years.  All it means is all the dealers will list it for the same price, because they have to.   There are numerous companies that do this, and I'm guessing most of us don't even know the extent to which its happening on the variety of things we buy.

If you really don't like it, band together, collect money, hire a lawyer and sue, or better yet buy a couple of politicians to pass anti-MAP laws.  Not sure which party you need to buy though.  Dems would like the price equality, and GOPs would be torn between supporting the free market (anti-MAP) and helping small business (pro-MAP).  :) 

-Brian
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: RC on November 02, 2012, 09:07:50 AM
@ tron & RC, well done, you both spotted a bargain and got a good deal...
Thanks
I set $3000 as my trigger point from an authorized dealer (Amazon, B&H, etc) and check prices at least daily.  Based on dealer pricing patterns and Canon Price Watch.com over the last few years, I just could not see the 5D3 dropping much below 3k right now.  Actually I was surprised with the $2994 price so I jumped on it. 

Still confused on those eBay sales  and kudos to those who got a great deal.  I don't think I could have went that route, I'm too skeptical and not much of a gambler.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: cptobvious on November 02, 2012, 10:05:37 AM
Unilateral pricing policy is the result of B&M stores pressuring manufacturers to set price floors. 

My take on it?  It may not be illegal, but it is inefficient for the market.  It's essentially punishing larger camera stores like Amazon and B&H (which is itself not that large) because they are more efficient and can pass on their lower overhead costs as savings to consumers. 

I've stopped buying at big box stores like Best Buy because of their high prices and bad service.  I've also had better service buying from Amazon and B&H than the local camera shops (who often price higher than minimum price anyway), so UPP is not going to make me more likely to buy from them.  It will, however, make me less likely to buy camera gear in general, given the prices Canon is asking.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: skitron on November 02, 2012, 10:10:46 AM
""Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today""

And my closed wallet policy goes into full effect today.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: Zv on November 02, 2012, 10:14:34 AM
Hey I don't know why some of you are complaining about Canon's prices in the US. In Japan, Canon's own backyard, a new 5D mk III costs ¥298,000 which nowadays is $3700! And a new 24-105L will set you back ¥98,000 or $1200! In fact everything is and always has been miles cheaper in the US. I don't think this MAP is gonna change that, there's far too much buyer power!

I bought all my lighting gear on amazon.com and adorama and had it shipped over to Japan and it was still HALF the price it would have cost over here. Not to mention that stuff is hard to find here too!
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: michi on November 02, 2012, 10:45:40 AM
Hey I don't know why some of you are complaining about Canon's prices in the US. In Japan, Canon's own backyard, a new 5D mk III costs ¥298,000 which nowadays is $3700! And a new 24-105L will set you back ¥98,000 or $1200! In fact everything is and always has been miles cheaper in the US. I don't think this MAP is gonna change that, there's far too much buyer power!

I bought all my lighting gear on amazon.com and adorama and had it shipped over to Japan and it was still HALF the price it would have cost over here. Not to mention that stuff is hard to find here too!

So that makes you wonder, do the Japanese have more money than us, are they willing to spend more on their hobbies, or are sales just really slow in Japan (and other countries)?
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: Sunnystate on November 02, 2012, 10:49:29 AM
5D III pricing soap opera just keeps going on... wonder what else could be done to put customers in the state of great anxiety and make them pay a truckloads for nothing.
Very amusing  :D
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: Etienne on November 02, 2012, 10:50:23 AM
@ Etienne, it is human nature to worry about what others did or didn't do (in this instance 'pay'), but you should only worry about yourself. Two years ago, the graduating MBA class at Harvard University were given a survey questionnaire with 2 options and were asked to specify which they would prefer:

(1) to get a job paying $200,000 per year, whilst the rest of your class secure jobs paying $250,000

or

(2) secure a job paying a starting salary of $120,000, whilst your classmates get jobs on $80,000

The result: the majority opted for (2) :o They were more concerned with relative position and rankings than absolute income. The moral of this story: forget what someone else paid for a DSLR, and focus on whether in the future a new DSLR would suit your needs, then save the necessary cash to get what you desire.


Good points, but it's an emotional thing as much as it is an extra $500. Plus, I don't really need the 5DIII, I just want it. My 5DII is still a great camera, but I am readily tempted by shiny new toys.

If my 5DII breaks, then I will need to get a new camera. In the meantime I'll just wait for a really good deal, or the next round of upgrades.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: plam_1980 on November 02, 2012, 10:51:03 AM
""Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today""

And my closed wallet policy goes into full effect today.
Me too!

I was so upset - I had set a psychological limit of $3000 and was waiting for my annual bonus. I received it yesterday, only to see the price going up again... $300 more just because MAP went into force seems unreasonable at least to me
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: neuroanatomist on November 02, 2012, 11:02:34 AM
I was so upset - I had set a psychological limit of $3000 and was waiting for my annual bonus. I received it yesterday, only to see the price going up again... $300 more just because MAP went into force seems unreasonable at least to me

Unfortunately, that's life.  You can either wait and hope the price drops in the future or find an extra $300 and give in to temptation...   ;)

I don't see this having any significant negative impact on Canon's sales - and probably positive in the long run, since keeping their major retail channels happy is important in the long run, and unpredictable undercutting by discounters can undermine those relationships.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: roguewave on November 02, 2012, 11:40:28 AM
Problem is though...people on CR want to buy the bloody thing, but do not wish to pay full price (dilemma :-[)

Not quite true... people do not wish to pay the full price FOR AN OVERPRICED product.

Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: neuroanatomist on November 02, 2012, 11:45:00 AM
Not quite true... people do not wish to pay the full price FOR AN OVERPRICED product.

Who defines 'overpriced'?  For some people, the 5DIII at $2900 was too expensive...for others, $3500 is not too expensive. 

The answer to my question is 'the market' defines 'overpriced' and that leads to low sales, which might lead to a reduction in the MAP.  But if sales don't drop much, or at all...
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: Dylan777 on November 02, 2012, 12:12:32 PM
Problem is though...people on CR want to buy the bloody thing, but do not wish to pay full price (dilemma :-[)

Not quite true... people do not wish to pay the full price FOR AN OVERPRICED product.

What make you think 5D III is "overpriced"? let me me guess....not enough MP compared to D800?
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: roguewave on November 02, 2012, 12:17:48 PM

Who defines 'overpriced'?  For some people, the 5DIII at $2900 was too expensive...for others, $3500 is not too expensive. 

The answer to my question is 'the market' defines 'overpriced' and that leads to low sales, which might lead to a reduction in the MAP.  But if sales don't drop much, or at all...

You are right, the market defines "overpriced". So, the fact that retailers cut into their profit in order to move the product tells me that the camera hadn't been flying off the shelves at the regular price.

However, the camera market is not perfect. Because of the cost of switching to another brand, Canon can get away with overcharging their customers.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: roguewave on November 02, 2012, 12:25:22 PM
What make you think 5D III is "overpriced"? let me me guess....not enough MP compared to D800?

Sarcasm aside, that too. The sensor is one of the most important aspects - that's the major reason 5DII costs 50% more than 7D, despite its speed, AF, etc.

So, if Nikon can offer better DR and similar low ISO performance in a higher MP sensor, what makes Canon think they can initially ask $500 more for their camera?
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: cliffwang on November 02, 2012, 12:33:49 PM
@ cliffwang, if you spend your life waiting for the price to reach your level, you'll end up either waiting a very long time, or you will end up buying antiquated technology (I can get a 1D II for less than I paid for my 7D, but I do not want an 8MP body that cannot go above ISO 3200). Canon may lose some customers , or rather, should I say some existing Canon shooters may defer their purchase, but ultimately they will upgrade at some point in the future and they'll get a better used price for their existing body as a result of this policy.

I think you missed my point.
If I didn't get a good deal, I wouldn't buy my 5D3.  I am very happy with my 5D3; However, if I needed to make a decision again to pay full price to upgrade my 5D2, I wouldn't.  In this point Canon is not going make any penny from me.
Two of my colleagues is not going to upgrade to 5D3 if the MAP pricing policy lets them pay full price.  Actually one of them is jumping to Nikon because he doesn't have any EF mount lens.
We could upgrade our camera every 3 to 4 years if we think the price is reasonable(no matter retail discount or Canon discount).  The new MAP pricing will just let us slow the upgrade or switch to other competitors.  What happens here is Canon is not only going to loss it revenue for now but also it market share for long term.  I have used Canon gears for years and I really don't want to see that happens.
Anyway, it's too early to tell the MAP is good for Canon or not.  Since I have upgraded to 5D3 and have enough gears, I am not going to worry about that for another few years.  Time will tell if Canon made a right decision or not.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: tron on November 02, 2012, 12:43:31 PM
What make you think 5D III is "overpriced"? let me me guess....not enough MP compared to D800?

Sarcasm aside, that too. The sensor is one of the most important aspects - that's the major reason 5DII costs 50% more than 7D, despite its speed, AF, etc.

So, if Nikon can offer better DR and similar low ISO performance in a higher MP sensor, what makes Canon think they can initially ask $500 more for their camera?
So if Nikon didn't exist 5DIII would be excellent and now it is not?
And who decides what is the correct number of megapixels?
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: roguewave on November 02, 2012, 12:50:42 PM
So if Nikon didn't exist 5DIII would be excellent and now it is not?
And who decides what is the correct number of megapixels?

Well, I never said Canon was not a good camera - only overpriced. And yes, economics 101 tells us that in the absence of competition Canon would command a higher price. But when they are not king of the hill any more, they better price their products competitively.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: Dylan777 on November 02, 2012, 12:52:07 PM
@ tron & RC, well done, you both spotted a bargain and got a good deal

@ Etienne, it is human nature to worry about what others did or didn't do (in this instance 'pay'), but you should only worry about yourself. Two years ago, the graduating MBA class at Harvard University were given a survey questionnaire with 2 options and were asked to specify which they would prefer:

(1) to get a job paying $200,000 per year, whilst the rest of your class secure jobs paying $250,000

or

(2) secure a job paying a starting salary of $120,000, whilst your classmates get jobs on $80,000

The result: the majority opted for (2) :o They were more concerned with relative position and rankings than absolute income. The moral of this story: forget what someone else paid for a DSLR, and focus on whether in the future a new DSLR would suit your needs, then save the necessary cash to get what you desire.

If everyone followed your logic (based on the psychology of what others have paid for an identical product) then Europeans would not buy Canon DSLR's or lenses at +25% to +50% more than what Americans pay today for the same models. In my country, a 5D3 costs US$4,420 (or €3,399 x 1.30) and that price has dropped 200 euros.
@ cliffwang, if you spend your life waiting for the price to reach your level, you'll end up either waiting a very long time, or you will end up buying antiquated technology (I can get a 1D II for less than I paid for my 7D, but I do not want an 8MP body that cannot go above ISO 3200). Canon may lose some customers , or rather, should I say some existing Canon shooters may defer their purchase, but ultimately they will upgrade at some point in the future and they'll get a better used price for their existing body as a result of this policy.

GREAT point DB. I'm glad Canon took control of this situation.

As many photographers, I do plan to upgrade to 5D 4(what ever that might come) - seeing the price drop 20%ish within 6-7 months on a NEW + HOT product is not great thing.

I do expect the price to drop $200 - $300 within couple years, but not FREEFALL up to $800 for less than a year.

These kind business practices will only lead to DEAD END.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: RLPhoto on November 02, 2012, 12:56:16 PM
This Makes me glad I bought my 5D3 for 3000$ flat. I just wish I could have picked up a second body at that 2799$ price. :o
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: cliffwang on November 02, 2012, 12:56:41 PM
What make you think 5D III is "overpriced"? let me me guess....not enough MP compared to D800?

Sarcasm aside, that too. The sensor is one of the most important aspects - that's the major reason 5DII costs 50% more than 7D, despite its speed, AF, etc.

So, if Nikon can offer better DR and similar low ISO performance in a higher MP sensor, what makes Canon think they can initially ask $500 more for their camera?

Market decides the price.  Canon marketing team decided the price based on many factors.  Number of users, brand name, glasses, etc.  Price is not always reflected on a product specs.  Why will many people buy iPad mini even Nexus 7 is better than it on specs.  That's very complicated.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: bdunbar79 on November 02, 2012, 12:59:05 PM
What make you think 5D III is "overpriced"? let me me guess....not enough MP compared to D800?

Sarcasm aside, that too. The sensor is one of the most important aspects - that's the major reason 5DII costs 50% more than 7D, despite its speed, AF, etc.

So, if Nikon can offer better DR and similar low ISO performance in a higher MP sensor, what makes Canon think they can initially ask $500 more for their camera?

Probably the high ISO that the D800 cannot reach.  I really think the 5D3/D800 debate isn't valid because in my opinion they are for slightly different audiences.  If I need a wedding camera that shoots at high ISO's, I'm not buying a D800, I'm getting a 5D3.  If I want to shoot daylight landscape with tilt-shift lenses and get amazing detail at low ISO's, I'll go D800.  I'm not taking a D800 to a wedding and shooting RAW and also have to bring a ton of lighting.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: Dylan777 on November 02, 2012, 01:03:04 PM
@ cliffwang, if you spend your life waiting for the price to reach your level, you'll end up either waiting a very long time, or you will end up buying antiquated technology (I can get a 1D II for less than I paid for my 7D, but I do not want an 8MP body that cannot go above ISO 3200). Canon may lose some customers , or rather, should I say some existing Canon shooters may defer their purchase, but ultimately they will upgrade at some point in the future and they'll get a better used price for their existing body as a result of this policy.

I think you missed my point.
If I didn't get a good deal, I wouldn't buy my 5D3.  I am very happy with my 5D3; However, if I needed to make a decision again to pay full price to upgrade my 5D2, I wouldn't.  In this point Canon is not going make any penny from me.Two of my colleagues is not going to upgrade to 5D3 if the MAP pricing policy lets them pay full price.  Actually one of them is jumping to Nikon because he doesn't have any EF mount lens.
We could upgrade our camera every 3 to 4 years if we think the price is reasonable(no matter retail discount or Canon discount).  The new MAP pricing will just let us slow the upgrade or switch to other competitors.  What happens here is Canon is not only going to loss it revenue for now but also it market share for long term.  I have used Canon gears for years and I really don't want to see that happens.
Anyway, it's too early to tell the MAP is good for Canon or not.  Since I have upgraded to 5D3 and have enough gears, I am not going to worry about that for another few years.  Time will tell if Canon made a right decision or not.

If Canon makes no profits from consumer, how do they stay in business? how do they conts. to make great lenses. I guess you will switch to Nikon after your 5D III?
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: neuroanatomist on November 02, 2012, 01:33:57 PM
If I want to shoot daylight landscape with tilt-shift lenses and get amazing detail at low ISO's, I'll go D800. 

Except for that pesky 'PC-E 24mm control knob hits the flash housing' issue...
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: hyles on November 02, 2012, 01:34:49 PM
I think MAP  may even be to save other market. In Italy the difference between official price and the price you could find buying intenet (off course not Italian warranty and so on) is very step, so that it may have led to low sales of canon imported products. I have seen shop selling less canon cameras and pushing nikon because they could not compete with internet prices. A MAP policy may lead to more difficult black market product and incresing officially imported cameras.

For what concerne 5DIII price, the fact that it is so higher the the d800 may be because while d800 has new sensor but kept same AF and is less different fron d700, developing 5DIII thay had to develop new sensor, new AF, new body and new everithing. It could not be less expensive than d800.
Diego
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: RLPhoto on November 02, 2012, 01:35:14 PM
Really nikon? I never figure that kinda stuff would be overlooked.  ???
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: kubelik on November 02, 2012, 02:46:00 PM
the canon-to-nikon switch I find plausible, if you don't have a big glass investment, although I think sooner or later the 5D Mark III will come down in price to be closer to the D800.

the people who are mentioning a switch to Sony, I find that heartily amusing, to say the least.  have you seen the sum total of their glass offerings?  slim pickings compared to Canon.  have you counted the number of Sony lenses that cost the same or less than comparable Canon offerings?  pretty darn hard to find.  they've been price gouging from day one.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: Chuck Alaimo on November 02, 2012, 02:47:55 PM
@ cliffwang, if you spend your life waiting for the price to reach your level, you'll end up either waiting a very long time, or you will end up buying antiquated technology (I can get a 1D II for less than I paid for my 7D, but I do not want an 8MP body that cannot go above ISO 3200). Canon may lose some customers , or rather, should I say some existing Canon shooters may defer their purchase, but ultimately they will upgrade at some point in the future and they'll get a better used price for their existing body as a result of this policy.

I think you missed my point.
If I didn't get a good deal, I wouldn't buy my 5D3.  I am very happy with my 5D3; However, if I needed to make a decision again to pay full price to upgrade my 5D2, I wouldn't.  In this point Canon is not going make any penny from me.
Two of my colleagues is not going to upgrade to 5D3 if the MAP pricing policy lets them pay full price.  Actually one of them is jumping to Nikon because he doesn't have any EF mount lens.
We could upgrade our camera every 3 to 4 years if we think the price is reasonable(no matter retail discount or Canon discount).  The new MAP pricing will just let us slow the upgrade or switch to other competitors.  What happens here is Canon is not only going to loss it revenue for now but also it market share for long term.  I have used Canon gears for years and I really don't want to see that happens.
Anyway, it's too early to tell the MAP is good for Canon or not.  Since I have upgraded to 5D3 and have enough gears, I am not going to worry about that for another few years.  Time will tell if Canon made a right decision or not.

What I don't get about what your saying is that you sound like photography is your business, in which case depending on the type of photography you do, 1 job makes up the difference in cost.  But, your bargain hunting as if you were a standard consumer.  I understand the price jaw drop for a standard consumer, but if your in business then this is just a CODB issue and any new piece of equipment should be accounted for in your overall rates/number of jobs you take on per year.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: Chuck Alaimo on November 02, 2012, 02:53:59 PM
There's a psychological thing for me:  I find it very difficult to pay $3300 today for a camera for which many people paid $2800 yesterday.

Not gonna happen!

My 5DII still produces great pics, I could easily wait for a 5D IV, or something nikon or sony has in a couple of years.

If many people react the same way as you, the MAP will come down, plain and simple.

many ups and downs, but, the mk3 has been in the top 20 for dslr sales at amazon since its release.  Today it's ranked at #5 ---and 1-4 in the ranking list are all sub $1000 cameras.  and oddly enough, the mk2 is selling well as well...currently up ahead of both the d800 and the d600.  So like it or not, canon is selling cameras
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: Chuck Alaimo on November 02, 2012, 03:00:42 PM
@ Etienne, it is human nature to worry about what others did or didn't do (in this instance 'pay'), but you should only worry about yourself. Two years ago, the graduating MBA class at Harvard University were given a survey questionnaire with 2 options and were asked to specify which they would prefer:

(1) to get a job paying $200,000 per year, whilst the rest of your class secure jobs paying $250,000

or

(2) secure a job paying a starting salary of $120,000, whilst your classmates get jobs on $80,000

The result: the majority opted for (2) :o They were more concerned with relative position and rankings than absolute income. The moral of this story: forget what someone else paid for a DSLR, and focus on whether in the future a new DSLR would suit your needs, then save the necessary cash to get what you desire.


Good points, but it's an emotional thing as much as it is an extra $500. Plus, I don't really need the 5DIII, I just want it. My 5DII is still a great camera, but I am readily tempted by shiny new toys.

If my 5DII breaks, then I will need to get a new camera. In the meantime I'll just wait for a really good deal, or the next round of upgrades.

Hate to say it, but, this is where I have to give kudo's to canon for pricing a pro grade body at pro grade prices!  If you worked as a photographer, and the type of photography dictated being able to nail a good shot at high ISO's (like most wedding photographers have too) then $500 would be covered by 1/4 of one wedding.   Just saying...
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: tron on November 02, 2012, 03:02:38 PM
So if Nikon didn't exist 5DIII would be excellent and now it is not?
And who decides what is the correct number of megapixels?

Well, I never said Canon was not a good camera - only overpriced. And yes, economics 101 tells us that in the absence of competition Canon would command a higher price. But when they are not king of the hill any more, they better price their products competitively.
I agree on that.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: Greg_M on November 02, 2012, 03:16:33 PM
When a price jumps a couple hundred dollars (or more) for no good reason it POs me. I can see charging more for a new product and then adjusting for the market and competition but not just bumping the price from one hour to the next. A person can make up any rational/excuse they want but that's how I feel and I don't think I am alone.

If you don't mind paying whatever the price is today that is your choice. Just like it is my prerogative to not.

This is NOT how a free capitalist economy works. This is price fixing. I have heard "levelling the playing field" used which is BS and at minimum a socialist method. It should be illegal in the US.

Buy it or not, it depends on you.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: bdunbar79 on November 02, 2012, 03:19:02 PM
If I want to shoot daylight landscape with tilt-shift lenses and get amazing detail at low ISO's, I'll go D800. 

Except for that pesky 'PC-E 24mm control knob hits the flash housing' issue...

Yeah, except for that!  :)
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: tron on November 02, 2012, 03:30:17 PM
If I want to shoot daylight landscape with tilt-shift lenses and get amazing detail at low ISO's, I'll go D800. 

Except for that pesky 'PC-E 24mm control knob hits the flash housing' issue...

Yeah, except for that!  :)

I 'll put it in another way: If  I want to shoot daylight landscape with 5DMkIII or 5DMkII I would chose TS-E 17 L and TS-E 24 L II  ;D
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: cliffwang on November 02, 2012, 05:18:58 PM
@ cliffwang, if you spend your life waiting for the price to reach your level, you'll end up either waiting a very long time, or you will end up buying antiquated technology (I can get a 1D II for less than I paid for my 7D, but I do not want an 8MP body that cannot go above ISO 3200). Canon may lose some customers , or rather, should I say some existing Canon shooters may defer their purchase, but ultimately they will upgrade at some point in the future and they'll get a better used price for their existing body as a result of this policy.

I think you missed my point.
If I didn't get a good deal, I wouldn't buy my 5D3.  I am very happy with my 5D3; However, if I needed to make a decision again to pay full price to upgrade my 5D2, I wouldn't.  In this point Canon is not going make any penny from me.
Two of my colleagues is not going to upgrade to 5D3 if the MAP pricing policy lets them pay full price.  Actually one of them is jumping to Nikon because he doesn't have any EF mount lens.
We could upgrade our camera every 3 to 4 years if we think the price is reasonable(no matter retail discount or Canon discount).  The new MAP pricing will just let us slow the upgrade or switch to other competitors.  What happens here is Canon is not only going to loss it revenue for now but also it market share for long term.  I have used Canon gears for years and I really don't want to see that happens.
Anyway, it's too early to tell the MAP is good for Canon or not.  Since I have upgraded to 5D3 and have enough gears, I am not going to worry about that for another few years.  Time will tell if Canon made a right decision or not.

What I don't get about what your saying is that you sound like photography is your business, in which case depending on the type of photography you do, 1 job makes up the difference in cost.  But, your bargain hunting as if you were a standard consumer.  I understand the price jaw drop for a standard consumer, but if your in business then this is just a CODB issue and any new piece of equipment should be accounted for in your overall rates/number of jobs you take on per year.

I am just a hobbyist and taking photos for my family and friends.  Canon might think high-end DSLR bodies are for only professional who will not care pay premium for their gears.  Guess what 3 of my colleagues in this office  has FF cameras.  One of our colleagues is moving to FF body.  Unfortunately, he is switch to Nikon.  If Canon doesn't care about this market, it will loss many business from people like us.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: roguewave on November 02, 2012, 05:42:24 PM
When a price jumps a couple hundred dollars (or more) for no good reason it POs me. I can see charging more for a new product and then adjusting for the market and competition but not just bumping the price from one hour to the next. A person can make up any rational/excuse they want but that's how I feel and I don't think I am alone.

If you don't mind paying whatever the price is today that is your choice. Just like it is my prerogative to not.

This is NOT how a free capitalist economy works. This is price fixing. I have heard "levelling the playing field" used which is BS and at minimum a socialist method. It should be illegal in the US.

Buy it or not, it depends on you.

I personally don't have a problem with the manufacturer setting a firm price for their products. In fact, I'd rather not waste my energy timing the market in search of a good deal.

My gripe is when the price is too high, milking the early adopters, taking advantage of the fact that most people won't bother switching systems for a few hundred $, and offering periodic rebates to prop up sales volume. Why not just set a competitive price from the start?
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: neuroanatomist on November 02, 2012, 06:14:49 PM
I am just a hobbyist and taking photos for my family and friends.  Canon might think high-end DSLR bodies are for only professional who will not care pay premium for their gears.  Guess what 3 of my colleagues in this office  has FF cameras.  One of our colleagues is moving to FF body.  Unfortunately, he is switch to Nikon.  If Canon doesn't care about this market, it will loss many business from people like us.

I'm sure Canon cares about the entire market.  When you buy a new body/lens/flash, do you register it with Canon?  It's funny - they call it 'warranty registration', but doing so is neither necessary nor sufficient for coverage, you need to furnish proof of purchase.  So why the myth of 'warranty registration'?  It's market research, pure and simple. They know who's buying what, their demographic info, what gear they already have, their job category, and income.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: Greg_M on November 02, 2012, 06:19:53 PM
I personally don't have a problem with the manufacturer setting a firm price for their products. In fact, I'd rather not waste my energy timing the market in search of a good deal.

My gripe is when the price is too high, milking the early adopters, taking advantage of the fact that most people won't bother switching systems for a few hundred $, and offering periodic rebates to prop up sales volume. Why not just set a competitive price from the start?



If the price is set and fixed it is not (by definition) competitive.

Q: Why do retailers lower their prices?
A: To be more competitive and sell more product.

Q: If a retailer has a philosophy of increasing sales by lowering prices why would they suddenly raise them?
A: Because they were told to.

Q: What is price fixing?
A: Price fixing is an agreement between participants on the same side in a market to buy or sell a product, service, or commodity only at a fixed price, or maintain the market conditions such that the price is maintained at a given level by controlling supply and demand.

It's your money, it's up to you. Personally I don't like to be controlled or manipulated.

I LIKE to shop for the best deal 
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: cliffwang on November 02, 2012, 06:48:09 PM
I am just a hobbyist and taking photos for my family and friends.  Canon might think high-end DSLR bodies are for only professional who will not care pay premium for their gears.  Guess what 3 of my colleagues in this office  has FF cameras.  One of our colleagues is moving to FF body.  Unfortunately, he is switch to Nikon.  If Canon doesn't care about this market, it will loss many business from people like us.

I'm sure Canon cares about the entire market.  When you buy a new body/lens/flash, do you register it with Canon?  It's funny - they call it 'warranty registration', but doing so is neither necessary nor sufficient for coverage, you need to furnish proof of purchase.  So why the myth of 'warranty registration'?  It's market research, pure and simple. They know who's buying what, their demographic info, what gear they already have, their job category, and income.
I thought Canon's register system sucks.  I haven't thought it tries to collection our information.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: kd2pm2 on November 02, 2012, 11:07:46 PM
I missed out on the $2994 so I searched around and for me I went for the 5D3 via Amazon @ $3299 since I got free shipping, no sales tax, free 32gig SD card, 2% back (credited to my amazon account=$66.00), $3 in MP3 music credit and 12 months finance @ 0% interest.  Doesnt make up the total difference but I feel better knowing I am not paying the full $3499.  I have my old gear ready to go into trade-in and depending on what I get for that I can get the 600EX practically for nothing. 
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: tnargs on November 03, 2012, 06:24:59 AM

If the price is set and fixed it is not (by definition) competitive.....It's your money, it's up to you. Personally I don't like to be controlled or manipulated.

I agree. Like I posted in the other Canon MAP thread, I don't think it's even legal where I live (in Australia):

http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/322982 (http://www.accc.gov.au/content/index.phtml/itemId/322982)

They are doing it to you because they can! They can't do it here because we have laws that protect consumers from that sort of asymmetrical abuse of power.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: WSMyles on November 03, 2012, 08:53:04 AM
As others have noted, this creeping phenomenon affects mainly US customers - in this latest instance anyway.

However, it has other consequences to competition in the world market, without the "price setting" of the dominant market.

There is also likely to be considerable collateral damage in the US market; not from what people are discussing now, but a result of the "banning" of easily-accessible price-comparison information.

That effect is this: a customer can no longer hit a few web pages and glean the best deal on the day.  They must now jump through multiple hoops and consume not only their own time and resources, but those of however many retailers they choose to canvas, looking for the best price.

Instead of 'doing the rounds' in a few minutes with a web browser (or a visit to a price-watch site), they will find themselves calling toll-free numbers, waiting on hold, waiting for call-backs, adding items to yet more "abandoned" shopping carts and other hugely time-wasting activities.  Instead of the retailers' websites doing all the work, they will be answering telephones and writing out quotes.  Which is clearly much less efficient.  I suppose it will create jobs though!  Expect prices to rise as a result.

The 'first resort' of some of these retaillers seems to be bundling excess stock into questionable 'deals' as 'free bonus items' at the MAP.  Deals which are very hard to compare.

Noone is stopping the retailers from selling at lower prices - only from advertising those prices.

Which brings up an interesting conundrum.  If a certain price-watching site (or any new one) decides to collect and publish the "best price of the week" off their own bat, is there anything Canon can do about it?  If that website is independent and not owned or controlled by any Canon Authorized Dealer, can it be considered "Advertising" at all?  All it takes is a link with a 'coupon code'...

There is a business opportunity right there...
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: unfocused on November 14, 2012, 05:57:42 PM
It's been less than two weeks since MAP pricing has gone into effect. Here is what I have noticed:

"Real" prices for most items have not changed much. Maybe a few of the high demand items (5DIII) have crept up a bit from the deep discounts some retailers were offering, but for most lenses and bodies, I'm not seeing much difference. What I am seeing is a lot more "can't show" pricing from the major retailers. It's a bit inconvenient, but it doesn't seem to have caused a significant spike in prices for the majority of lenses and bodies.

It seems retailers are anxious to get consumers to open their wallets while the economy remains sluggish and MAP pricing isn't doing much to hinder the competition. In fact, I've seen some real bargains lately (lower prices than before MAP) My take: you can try, but it's pretty hard to stop the marketplace from setting prices.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: HeavenHell on December 17, 2012, 08:40:59 PM
What happened to the enforcement of MAP?  Seems like there have been Canon lens sales everywhere you look the past few days.  Our retailers allowed to skirt the rules by forcing you to add it to your cart before showing you the price.  NOT that I'm complaining.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: Dylan777 on December 17, 2012, 09:40:16 PM
What happened to the enforcement of MAP?  Seems like there have been Canon lens sales everywhere you look the past few days.  Our retailers allowed to skirt the rules by forcing you to add it to your cart before showing you the price.  NOT that I'm complaining.

$2-$300 price drops is good for both buyers and sellers.

I paid $2300 and I do think this lens is worth it ;)
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: kubelik on December 18, 2012, 09:22:46 AM
What happened to the enforcement of MAP?  Seems like there have been Canon lens sales everywhere you look the past few days.  Our retailers allowed to skirt the rules by forcing you to add it to your cart before showing you the price.  NOT that I'm complaining.

if you read what reasonable, non-inflammatory people were posting when Canon announced MAP pricing (even on this exact thread), that's exactly what they stated would happen.
Title: Re: Canon's MAP Pricing Goes Into Full Effect Today
Post by: WSMyles on December 19, 2012, 02:36:06 AM
What happened to the enforcement of MAP?  Seems like there have been Canon lens sales everywhere you look the past few days.  Our retailers allowed to skirt the rules by forcing you to add it to your cart before showing you the price.  NOT that I'm complaining.

Leading to an e-cological disaster, as cookie directories, web caches and servers are littered with millions of abandoned shopping carts!  Shame, Canon, Shame!

:)

(This message posted using 100% recycled electrons)