canon rumors FORUM

Gear Talk => Third Party Manufacturers => Topic started by: verysimplejason on November 05, 2012, 01:59:56 AM

Title: Nikon Sales Rising
Post by: verysimplejason on November 05, 2012, 01:59:56 AM
Apparently, Nikon sales is rising.

http://www.nikon.com/about/ir/ir_library/result/index.htm (http://www.nikon.com/about/ir/ir_library/result/index.htm)

Do we have any figures on Canon's sales?  I know Nikon market share is still below that of Canon but I hope Canon do something with it not only on the marketing side but also on the technology side.
Title: Re: Nikon Sales Rising
Post by: dirtcastle on November 05, 2012, 02:57:48 AM
I would rather see Nikon do well than go out of business.
Title: Re: Nikon Sales Rising
Post by: heptagon on November 05, 2012, 03:29:21 AM
Are Canon cameras still outselling Nikon cameras 10:1?
Title: Re: Nikon Sales Rising
Post by: Canon-F1 on November 05, 2012, 03:34:58 AM
no suprise.

if i would start new today i probably would buy nikon too.
Title: Re: Nikon Sales Rising
Post by: NormanBates on November 05, 2012, 04:22:29 AM
so there you go: Canon has sales and profits going down, and can't blame the slow world economy

I would bet on greedy pricing, or, if you want to look at it from the other side, increased competition (and lack of a response to that)

but it's not like the other camp should be feeling a lot better: sales are up, but profit is down (which is to be expected when you price your goods a bit too aggressively)
Title: Re: Nikon Sales Rising
Post by: verysimplejason on November 05, 2012, 04:49:50 AM
so there you go: Canon has sales and profits going down, and can't blame the slow world economy

I would bet on greedy pricing, or, if you want to look at it from the other side, increased competition (and lack of a response to that)

but it's not like the other camp should be feeling a lot better: sales are up, but profit is down (which is to be expected when you price your goods a bit too aggressively)

Yup that's true, but I'm guessing that aggressive pricing also tends to attract customers both new and those who are switching.  In business, sometimes you think of performance in the long run.  I know there's some switching going on since whenever I go to photography trading sites, I can see some people offering their Canon gear for trade for equivalent Nikon products.  I just hope that Canon notices it so that Canon users like us will get better prices and better technology.
Title: Re: Nikon Sales Rising
Post by: Martin on November 05, 2012, 04:57:31 AM
The reason imo are:

1. very poor RD and as an effect-no real development in camera sensors. To be honest-there are no new products,only corrected or improved to catch market standard (competition)
2. very very high price, not corresponding with quality (sensors) and competition's offer
3. canon is now only driven by accountants and marketing guys.
4. The company strongly believes that loyal customers who already own canon and invested hard in some gear will stay loyal and put more money into the company's wallet.
5. A lot of users buy ie. 5d3 cause a previous model lacks a lot of basics (AF) not because a new one has such a great features. Maybe the 5d4 will have a slightly better DR, no banding, higher x-sync-things which are already provided on the other side of the fence. I know that someone can say that the grass is always greener there, however I checked two sides and that's my opinion

IMHO Canon  pulls the wool over its clients eyes.People are not stupid and don't like to be cheated somehow. People care about their money. I do not see any real improvement and the company does not make me feel it will strongly develop in future, on the other hand, they demand in a greedy way. If had to start from scratch I would definitely go for Nikon now. ( I have already switched to Canon and really regret the decision). Now I just do want to loose my money but I feel that will be my final decision. Moreover I have a lot of problems with my gear since the purchase, so far service did not help me or exchange body to one which works properly.
Title: Re: Nikon Sales Rising
Post by: nightbreath on November 05, 2012, 05:16:15 AM
I know that someone can say that the grass is always greener there, however I checked two sides and that's my opinion...

I have already switched to Canon and really regret the decision.
Looks like a loop  :)  Did the same thought bring you to Canon?
Title: Re: Nikon Sales Rising
Post by: sanj on November 05, 2012, 05:42:53 AM
no suprise.

if i would start new today i probably would buy nikon too.

Hmmmm. I see your point.
Title: Re: Nikon Sales Rising
Post by: Nishi Drew on November 05, 2012, 06:32:37 AM
Nikon has been targeting newer markets, where Canon stays where they've always sold. Nikon practically took over India with Canon barely on the sales ranking. Nikon at the top and I think Sony right after for DSLRs. As an emerging economy with lots of people in this age of social media Nikon jumped in for the opportunity and are scoring.
Title: Re: Nikon Sales Rising
Post by: neuroanatomist on November 05, 2012, 07:06:04 AM
Let's put this in perspective - this is the first quarter in several years that Nikon outsold Canon, and Nikon needs a lot more quarters like this last one to make up for how far they trail Canon in dSLR market share.
Title: Re: Nikon Sales Rising
Post by: Canon-F1 on November 05, 2012, 07:16:01 AM
Let's put this in perspective - this is the first quarter in several years that Nikon outsold Canon, and Nikon needs a lot more quarters like this last one to make up for how far they trail Canon in dSLR market share.

im not really interested in market shares... im interested in products.
and nikon has produced the more exciting cameras this year.
at least in my pricerange of 2000-3000 euro.

im not switching as this would cost me a fortune on glass.
but i do hope that canons next generation will be exciting not just blah.




Title: Re: Nikon Sales Rising
Post by: neuroanatomist on November 05, 2012, 07:20:03 AM
and nikon has produced the more exciting cameras this year.
at least in my pricerange of 2000-3000 euro.

Even there, I'd take a 5DIII over a D800 for general use.  I'm sure I'd find the D800 exciting if my primary subjects were landscape and architecture, but they're not.
Title: Re: Nikon Sales Rising
Post by: Canon-F1 on November 05, 2012, 07:24:36 AM
Even there, I'd take a 5DIII over a D800 for general use.  I'm sure I'd find the D800 exciting if my primary subjects were landscape and architecture, but they're not.

landscape, portrait, macro for me.

and the D800 is 600 euro cheaper here. that is very tempting.
Title: Re: Nikon Sales Rising
Post by: JR on November 05, 2012, 07:28:30 AM
and nikon has produced the more exciting cameras this year.
at least in my pricerange of 2000-3000 euro.

Even there, I'd take a 5DIII over a D800 for general use.  I'm sure I'd find the D800 exciting if my primary subjects were landscape and architecture, but they're not.

+1!  I am learning this the hard way.  I love the D800 for shooting outside and shooting still scenary like landscape, but trying to shoot a moving subject even outside or shooting indoor with a flash sometime is a hit and miss game with the AF on the D800.  It is also very sensitive to lenses selection.  In low light prime lenses are almost impossible to focus with the D800...

As a result (and to my surprise to some degree) my go to Camera for shooting ISO 100 with a flsh inside is actually my ... 1DX! 
Title: Re: Nikon Sales Rising
Post by: verysimplejason on November 05, 2012, 08:14:47 AM
Even here in Malaysia (as I'm staying currently here), most of my office mates and friends that are new in photography, all of them have got Nikon except one (15 of them, because of D7000 & recently D600) though Canon users (mostly old) still outnumber them.  You can see it whenever our club is going for photo shoots/hiking.
Title: Re: Nikon Sales Rising
Post by: symmar22 on November 05, 2012, 08:44:03 AM
Let's put this in perspective - this is the first quarter in several years that Nikon outsold Canon, and Nikon needs a lot more quarters like this last one to make up for how far they trail Canon in dSLR market share.

im not really interested in market shares... im interested in products.
and nikon has produced the more exciting cameras this year.
at least in my pricerange of 2000-3000 euro.

im not switching as this would cost me a fortune on glass.
but i do hope that canons next generation will be exciting not just blah.

+1.

I stick because switching glass would cost me a fortune (and I need my TS-Es)

I couldn't care less about sales figures. Canon and Nikon are not exactly the same companies, Canon being much bigger, with lots of other products than photography (copiers, printers, office equipment).

But Nikon, with its smaller footprint is putting a lot of NEW products with exciting features. It's not not about money (Canon has more of it) it's about attitude and creativity.

For a newcomer, Nikon is nowadays the obvious choice, their cameras will give you better IQ for less money. Only the 1Dx can compete with its D4 equivalent.

What counts is the final product you release and the price you sell it. Canon has nothing exciting or even new to propose, it's clear they did not invest enough in RD since some time. They might be n°1, but they fell asleep.

IMO the 24-70mmf4 IS is just a marketing lens designed to offer a cheaper kit for the 6D.

When Nikon announces a NEW product, it's available within weeks (or a few months worst case). Canon since years is just refreshing what they already have, and announces it years before you can actually see it, most of it being delayed anyway. On top of that, the retail price is always more than the competition and much more than the product it replaces.

IMO the last NEW lenses Canon has put on the market was the 8-15mm Fisheye, and the good 40mm pancake (though crippled by the focus by wire). Everything else is merely a refresh.

The 24mm and 28mm IS are replacing 30 years old lenses, I would call them a refresh as well, and the price has been refreshed accordingly.

If it's about refreshing, there's an endless list of lenses that are completely outdated (20/2.8, 28/1.8, 35/2, 50/1.8, 50/2.5 Macro, 135/2.8 SF, 400/5.6), could see some obvious improvements (35/1.4, 45/2.8 TS-E, 50/1.4, 90/2.8 TS-E, 180/3.5, 200/2.8, 300/4 IS, 100-400/4-5.6) or are simply missing (17/2.8, 14-24/2.8 )
When Nikon's sensors superiority finally got widely admitted, then everyone starts putting Canon's glass as being the main interest.

That was maybe true until now, but if they don't do anything to renew their aging glass range, they won't keep the upper hand much longer.



Title: Re: Nikon Sales Rising
Post by: neuroanatomist on November 05, 2012, 09:52:08 AM
Even there, I'd take a 5DIII over a D800 for general use.  I'm sure I'd find the D800 exciting if my primary subjects were landscape and architecture, but they're not.

Off topic, but...
Wouldn't you want a D800 for the wildlife stuff you do, too?

The AF on the 5DIII is reportedly superior, and the high ISO performance is better, too.  Both are even more true of the 1D X.  Would I like more MP?  Sure.  But great AF and low noise are more important, to me.
Title: Re: Nikon Sales Rising
Post by: molnarcs on November 05, 2012, 10:03:13 AM
and nikon has produced the more exciting cameras this year.
at least in my pricerange of 2000-3000 euro.

Even there, I'd take a 5DIII over a D800 for general use.  I'm sure I'd find the D800 exciting if my primary subjects were landscape and architecture, but they're not.

+1!  I am learning this the hard way.  I love the D800 for shooting outside and shooting still scenary like landscape, but trying to shoot a moving subject even outside or shooting indoor with a flash sometime is a hit and miss game with the AF on the D800.  It is also very sensitive to lenses selection.  In low light prime lenses are almost impossible to focus with the D800...

As a result (and to my surprise to some degree) my go to Camera for shooting ISO 100 with a flsh inside is actually my ... 1DX!

I bought a d800 about 3 weeks ago, and unfortunately, it was a lemon. Center focus point dead-on, but BOTH left and right way off. This especially affects moving subjects. Took me three weeks back-and forth between the shop until I got a replacement. First they "fixed" it - all focus points were basically even... evenly bad. My 50mm lens that needed zero AF Fine Tune with my d7k needed about +30 when the body came back from "repairs." Finally, I got a new body, and fortunately, it's accurate and fast, even in low light. From what I gather from reviews (I haven't handled the 1DX) they are pretty much on par, negligible difference in focusing speed and accuracy... if you get a good copy. Which reminds me - while Nikon sales are up, service quality is way down. The left AF focus issue is a huge let-down, especially the silence on the part of Nikon :(
Title: Re: Nikon Sales Rising
Post by: Martin on November 05, 2012, 04:48:08 PM
You should be happy about the fact that finally you have a good one (D800). You should not blame N service as you are happy at the end. My 5d3 was  a crap since purchase. Sent it 5 times for service for fixing AF. I bought my body in May...still not working. That's Canon service from my point of view-and they did not exchange it for new and good copy .  I have terrible experience with Canon service. Now I have a 3500$ body without working AF.
Title: Re: Nikon Sales Rising
Post by: DB on November 05, 2012, 06:48:28 PM
You should be happy about the fact that finally you have a good one (D800). You should not blame N service as you are happy at the end. My 5d3 was  a crap since purchase. Sent it 5 times for service for fixing AF. I bought my body in May...still not working. That's Canon service from my point of view-and they did not exchange it for new and good copy .  I have terrible experience with Canon service. Now I have a 3500$ body without working AF.

That is appalling. Did you buy your 5D3 online or from a store? You would've thought that Canon would go out of their way to replace a high-end DSLR pronto ???
Title: Re: Nikon Sales Rising
Post by: xopher on November 05, 2012, 07:17:07 PM
i love how everyone is putting a large emphasize on DSLRs when in reality, it is the consumer grade products that rack in all the cash.

I am interested to see Canon's Sales because they literally DOMINATE the point and shoot market...
Title: Re: Nikon Sales Rising
Post by: Mt Spokane Photography on November 05, 2012, 07:25:29 PM
Apparently, Nikon sales is rising.

http://www.nikon.com/about/ir/ir_library/result/index.htm (http://www.nikon.com/about/ir/ir_library/result/index.htm)

Do we have any figures on Canon's sales?  I know Nikon market share is still below that of Canon but I hope Canon do something with it not only on the marketing side but also on the technology side.
Nikon did increase sales, but only by slashing prices.  Sales increased 2.2% over the last 6 months, but profits dropped 36.9%.
Its difficult to compare Canon and Nikon figures, because they report the information differently.
However, looking at the same two periods, I have Canon sales off 3.1% and profits off 18.6%.  So profit wise, they are not having to slash prices as much as Nikon, or they just have a bigger profit margin.
The next quarter is one that will be interesting, Spring and Christmas are the big sales quarters.  If sales are slow, we will see even bigger sales.
Both Nikon and Canon know that its better to keep their skilled labor employed by cutting prices.  It costs a lot to cut production by a drastic amount.
Title: Re: Nikon Sales Rising
Post by: Martin on November 07, 2012, 02:20:29 AM


Quote
That is appalling. Did you buy your 5D3 online or from a store? You would've thought that Canon would go out of their way to replace a high-end DSLR pronto ???

Bought it in a store which sells online too, however it does not matter right now. I could count only on service which really did not help me. It fixed one thing but untune everything else for a few times.
Title: Re: Nikon Sales Rising
Post by: AmbientLight on November 07, 2012, 03:32:06 AM
Actually I am surprised at people saying that most anyone new to photography automatically jumps on the Nikon bandwagon. Not that their products are any bad, but this is not the reality I see.

In camera stores I find it not uncommon to see people being new to photography buying Nikon gear based on specs or usability preferences or whatever other reasons. Amongst people I know anyone actually taking a deep look at photography and asking photographers what they are using and how, ended up investing in Canon.

At the same time I know many shooting Nikon for years with good results not upgrading whatsoever, which I at first could not understand, because I expected people would have more than enough reason to upgrade, but those Nikon shooters were quite unwilling to upgrade their gear. Since many of those unwilling to join the megapixel rat race were shooting Nikon a couple of years back, it would actually be weird to expect the same people to throw their personal views overboard and now they should be all crazy about high megapixel cameras.
Title: Re: Nikon Sales Rising
Post by: NormanBates on November 07, 2012, 04:25:31 AM
Most people new to photography end up buying bridge cameras with tiny sensors.

I think we're talking about people that are new to photography but are well informed or well advised. The kind of people that will later on buy some decent lenses and not a 18-300 superzoom. You can read it as: "anybody new to photography that comes to me for advice is going to end up with a Nikon or a Sony". And you may add to that: "and, as everybody else does, I presume other people are just like me".
Title: Re: Nikon Sales Rising
Post by: nicku on November 07, 2012, 04:26:27 AM
Apparently, Nikon sales is rising.

http://www.nikon.com/about/ir/ir_library/result/index.htm (http://www.nikon.com/about/ir/ir_library/result/index.htm)

Do we have any figures on Canon's sales?  I know Nikon market share is still below that of Canon but I hope Canon do something with it not only on the marketing side but also on the technology side.

The only thing Canon can do is to produce more technological improved cameras at a lower price like Nikon. If they insist in the current marketing/product strategy they will loose a huge chunk of market share.
Title: Re: Nikon Sales Rising
Post by: neuroanatomist on November 07, 2012, 06:01:07 AM
I think we're talking about people that are new to photography but are well informed or well advised. The kind of people that will later on buy some decent lenses and not a 18-300 superzoom.

If that's who we're talking about, I think we're talking about a tiny minority of first-time dSLR buyers.
Title: Re: Nikon Sales Rising
Post by: Gothmoth on November 07, 2012, 06:46:44 AM
If that's who we're talking about, I think we're talking about a tiny minority of first-time dSLR buyers.

yep.. why else should canon be the market leader otherwise.....   ;D  8)
Title: Re: Nikon Sales Rising
Post by: RayValdez360 on November 07, 2012, 07:59:51 AM
The only  thing I can see causing this are  extremely high prices and  a lack of innovation.  I don't think the sensor stuff and DR stuff matters to the  majority of DSLR users. I know quite a few pro-photographers and not one of them  ever mentions dynamic range. It sounds like a lot of benchmarking tech  geeks are on the message board. It reminds me of how people  judge graphics cards  by using 3DMark scores  instead of actually using real games to judge their GPU.  Even though I have a 5D3, in 2012 a camera should have built in wifi and usb 3.0 for $3500. I wonder how much these cameras actually cost to  make and how much  profit would they lose by adding little modern conveniences.
Title: Re: Nikon Sales Rising
Post by: nicku on November 07, 2012, 08:30:14 AM
The only  thing I can see causing this are  extremely high prices and  a lack of innovation.  I don't think the sensor stuff and DR stuff matters to the  majority of DSLR users. I know quite a few pro-photographers and not one of them  ever mentions dynamic range. It sounds like a lot of benchmarking tech  geeks are on the message board. It reminds me of how people  judge graphics cards  by using 3DMark scores  instead of actually using real games to judge their GPU.  Even though I have a 5D3, in 2012 a camera should have built in wifi and usb 3.0 for $3500. I wonder how much these cameras actually cost to  make and how much  profit would they lose by adding little modern conveniences.

You are right... very few people are interested in DR ... BUT all people are interested in megapixels and ISO performance. The Nikon D800 stays better at both compared with 5D3
Title: Re: Nikon Sales Rising
Post by: julescar on November 07, 2012, 08:43:04 AM
My Wife and I run a photography business and own the D800/D800E and 2 X 5D mmiii and we use the D800 in the studio work mainly for product photography(with a tripod) and both of us prefer (and always grab) the 5D mmiii's when we are out on the road and need to move about quickly. They are far quicker to capture the moment. Both are excellent cameras.
Title: Re: Nikon Sales Rising
Post by: 96Brigadier on November 07, 2012, 08:45:45 AM
Whenever I head out to the mountains (Banff, Lake Louise), I tend to see the tourists sporting shiny new Nikon bodies with only the odd Canon thrown in.  I always find that interesting.
Title: Re: Nikon Sales Rising
Post by: neuroanatomist on November 07, 2012, 08:47:25 AM
... BUT all people are interested in megapixels and ISO performance. The Nikon D800 stays better at both compared with 5D3

...and AF performance and frame rate, where Canon has the edge.
Title: Re: Nikon Sales Rising
Post by: Viggo on November 07, 2012, 12:17:20 PM
... BUT all people are interested in megapixels and ISO performance. The Nikon D800 stays better at both compared with 5D3

...and AF performance and frame rate, where Canon has the edge.

+1 AF performance will ALWAYS be my main priority.. I can have all the detail in the world, and a slightly (and I mean slightly) OOF image makes that advantage go away. I have literally hundreds and hundreds of images that are truly insane moments that the 1d X catches that no other camera has done before. It's not that it's just quick on the trigger , it focuses subjects and images one would haven't even bothered to try catching with other cameras. And when there's such moments that are just TOO insane movements up close at f1,4, it still only misses by a centimeter, and I couldn't expect anything to catch it perfectly, BUT set it in 12 fps mode and you still get one sharp of those WAY beyond moments...

But imho, the 1d X is the only camera Canon have gotten right since the 5d2, I mean as an upgrade. The mk4 only fixed what was terribly wrong and flawed with the 1d3 and the 5d3 is a fantastic camera, but makes no improvement in IQ.

And that would be easier to take if the prices wasn't ridicolous... I mean, here in Norway the price difference of the mk4 at launch and the 1d X at launch is 2200 USD.. And now TWICE the price for the 24-70 II that is more prone to flare, way less protection for the lens barrel, bigger more expensive filters. For that price it should be better in every aspect, not just almost all. Canon must make their new products better in EVERY way and launch at the same price as the old new.
Title: Re: Nikon Sales Rising
Post by: Mt Spokane Photography on November 07, 2012, 06:21:35 PM
We have a small local Camera store which is actually run by photographers.  They sell both Nikon and Canon.  The owner tells me that Canon is much better to deal with than Nikon.  As a result, he sells more Canon Cameras even though he is happy to sell you Nikon if he can get it.  He did get a D800 for me, its a nice camera.  Lenses and service are a different story.
I'm back to a 5D MK III, its just much more usable over a wide range of applications, and I use mine tethered to a pc for product photography a lot.  Nikon loses big time there.
Title: Re: Nikon Sales Rising
Post by: nicku on November 08, 2012, 02:03:38 AM
Let be honest with us ( Canon users)... we add in front better Canon specs compared with Nikon; like AF, speed etc.... and yes the AF, and speed of 5D3 is better than D800.

Let's face it... OVERALL, TODAY Nikon produce better DSLR cameras than Canon. and we can't do anything (except change brands).
Title: Re: Nikon Sales Rising
Post by: NormanBates on November 08, 2012, 03:35:14 AM
I'm back to a 5D MK III, its just much more usable over a wide range of applications, and I use mine tethered to a pc for product photography a lot.  Nikon loses big time there.

That's one area that's usually overlooked: if you're going to use the software that comes with the camera, Canon wins BY A HUGE MARGIN.
Canon's DPP is a joy to use, simple and effective. Nikon's ViewNX is a nightmare that takes ages to update the metadata on an image and crashes more often than any other piece of commercial software I've ever used.
Title: Re: Nikon Sales Rising
Post by: neuroanatomist on November 08, 2012, 09:35:14 AM
Canon's DPP is a joy to use, simple and effective. Nikon's ViewNX is a nightmare that takes ages to update the metadata on an image and crashes more often than any other piece of commercial software I've ever used.

IMO, DPP is a joy to use in much the same way that a visit to the dentist for a root canal is a pleasant experience.   :o

DPP's UI reminds me of WordStar (I know, I'm dating myself here).  If ViewNX is worse, that's pretty bad.
Title: Re: Nikon Sales Rising
Post by: aznable on November 11, 2012, 08:37:40 AM
Apparently, Nikon sales is rising.

http://www.nikon.com/about/ir/ir_library/result/index.htm (http://www.nikon.com/about/ir/ir_library/result/index.htm)

Do we have any figures on Canon's sales?  I know Nikon market share is still below that of Canon but I hope Canon do something with it not only on the marketing side but also on the technology side.

how much moneys nikon did in the quarter? canon did over 900 millions usd...nikon in 6 months less than half of moneys with big hit compared with last year results while selling more...maybe they are spending a bit too much in r&d (licensing sensors from sony...lol)
Title: Re: Nikon Sales Rising
Post by: NormanBates on November 13, 2012, 06:36:39 AM
Canon's DPP is a joy to use, simple and effective. Nikon's ViewNX is a nightmare that takes ages to update the metadata on an image and crashes more often than any other piece of commercial software I've ever used.

IMO, DPP is a joy to use in much the same way that a visit to the dentist for a root canal is a pleasant experience.   :o

DPP's UI reminds me of WordStar (I know, I'm dating myself here).  If ViewNX is worse, that's pretty bad.

OK, DPP is not "a joy to use", but it's moderately fast, and it works. ViewNX can't say any of those. Real nightmare stuff.