canon rumors FORUM

Rumors => EOS Bodies => Topic started by: Canon Rumors on November 16, 2012, 08:23:49 AM

Title: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Canon Rumors on November 16, 2012, 08:23:49 AM

What can we expect in early 2013?

I’m told we’ll be seeing two seperate announcements in back to back months in 2013. We’ll see announcements in February and March, one of the announcements will be a “major” event. Sometimes the word “major” is used incorrectly.


EOS-M

Apparently, one of the announcements will be to introduce a second EOS-M body. The body will be slightly bigger, and have a viewfinder. They will also introduce at least two new lenses with the body. I’d expect a telephoto zoom and a fast prime.


EOS 7D Mark II

One of these announcement dates will also be for the EOS 7D replacement. No word on specs, but it’s suggested the camera/segment will get a new naming scheme.


Big Megapixel

The 40+ mp camera gets another mention and we should expect an announcement in Q1 of 2013. The camera will be physically bigger than the 5D Mark III, but will be smaller than the EOS-1D X. It’s noted that the sensor is currently in EOS-1D X styled bodies.


cr


Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: bbasiaga on November 16, 2012, 08:38:53 AM
I'll definitely have my eye on the EOS M body.  If it has an OVF and improved AF speed, I could see this being my back up body to my 5DIII.  I know this technology will get there, just not sure if it gets there this round or not.  Could be an excellent alternative to getting a new P&S, though considerably more expensive I'm sure.

-Brian
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: RLPhoto on November 16, 2012, 08:39:08 AM
A pro aimed EOS M would be nice.

A 7D2 is way overdue.

And the BIG MP camera will be here soon.

Let's see some innovation canon.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: kidnaper on November 16, 2012, 08:46:27 AM
Amazon currently has a few G1xes for around 540... I've been debating one of these, but if an EOS M comes out with an EVF.. hmmmm what to do...
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: GMCPhotographics on November 16, 2012, 08:58:18 AM
A pro aimed EOS M would be nice.

A 7D2 is way overdue.

And the BIG MP camera will be here soon.

Let's see some innovation canon.

The 7D2 is way over due only because of it's iso noise issue. It has more than enough MP and features.
If Canon can nail their iso noise issue and bring their shadow noise up to Nikon/Sony standards then it'll have been worth the wait. I just hope it's not another nominal upgrade.

I'm not sure if a big MP camera will shift boxes as much as the current 5DIII and 1DX are. It'll be nice to try one, but 46mp? Really? Like who really NEEDs this IQ?
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: dstppy on November 16, 2012, 09:01:27 AM
Too long to wait.

I'm switching to Nikon  ;D
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Lee Jay on November 16, 2012, 09:03:42 AM
The 7D2 is way over due only because of it's iso noise issue. It has more than enough MP and features.

No, it needs f/8 autofocus, more pixels for more "reach" when focal length limited, flexible video cropping options, and preferably a set of high-speed video modes like pretty much all their compacts have now.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Lee Jay on November 16, 2012, 09:09:06 AM
If Canon really can come up with a pixel design and readout electronics that dramatically reduces read noise, won't that leave the new 5DIII owners out in the cold?  Could the 5DIII get a big price drop and a replacement (sensor only) be released soon?  Could Canon offer a sensor-only upgrade for them?

A big pixel count sensor would add great flexibility if properly implemented.  I've suggested before several modes:

- Standard mode would be with something like 14MP of full-color pixels each derived from 4 of the small pixels - medium speed.  This is the approach used in the C100.
- High-res mode (all pixels - slow).
- 2x-crop mode - again something like 14MP this time of standard Bayer pixels from the center of the frame (fast).

Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Lee Jay on November 16, 2012, 09:17:35 AM
Apparently, one of the announcements will be to introduce a second EOS-M body. The body will be slightly bigger, and have a viewfinder.

Before these mirrorless cameras will become even remotely interesting to me, they need three things:


If they're going to release a second version of the M, they need a standard zoom lens that retracts inside the body when not in use.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Stuart on November 16, 2012, 09:17:52 AM
Looking forward to some big mature changes, stabilising the EOS-M range. big pixel and a 7D refresh. Could a EOS-M with a viewfinder and a 7D renaming scheme be one and the same thing?
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: sanj on November 16, 2012, 09:20:43 AM
Yayyyyy! Something new to fight about! Looking forward to this thread growing... :)
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Lee Jay on November 16, 2012, 09:25:43 AM
Looking forward to some big mature changes, stabilising the EOS-M range. big pixel and a 7D refresh. Could a EOS-M with a viewfinder and a 7D renaming scheme be one and the same thing?

No way, no how, could the replacement 7D be a mirrorless camera.  That would kill it for 95% of the users.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: candyman on November 16, 2012, 09:32:27 AM
"...new naming scheme"


Let's speculate on that. What will it be? 1D-C (topline of APS-C)
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Ricku on November 16, 2012, 09:33:51 AM
I still don't like the idea of a bigger camera, even if it is smaller than the 1DX.

I hope it is not because of an integrated grip.

A studio camera does not need an integrated grip. An architecture camera does not need an integrated grip. A landscape camera does not need an integrated grip. If you want a grip for those purposes, attach an optional one.  :P
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Ricku on November 16, 2012, 09:37:13 AM
If Canon really can come up with a pixel design and readout electronics that dramatically reduces read noise, won't that leave the new 5DIII owners out in the cold?  Could the 5DIII get a big price drop and a replacement (sensor only) be released soon?  Could Canon offer a sensor-only upgrade for them?
I would not worry about that.

Haven't you heard? Most people who bought the 5D III claim that "they don't need more DR", and that "more DR is only for people who can't expose correctly."

Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Lee Jay on November 16, 2012, 09:41:30 AM
If Canon really can come up with a pixel design and readout electronics that dramatically reduces read noise, won't that leave the new 5DIII owners out in the cold?  Could the 5DIII get a big price drop and a replacement (sensor only) be released soon?  Could Canon offer a sensor-only upgrade for them?
I would not worry about that.

Haven't you heard? Most people who bought the 5D III claim that "they don't need more DR", and that "more DR is only for people who can't expose correctly."

I don't really need more DR either (well, it's very rare that I do), but I would like cleaner images in the DR I currently have.  Going all the way to the noise floor doesn't yield the cleanest images, while pushing the noise floor down would achieve much cleaner images in the area from the current noise floor up.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: garyknrd on November 16, 2012, 09:43:42 AM
I have been waiting for the 7Dll for two years now. I will believe it when I see it. But I old 7D just keeps on clicking no problems.  ;)
Still wold like to see what the next crop body will be.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Ricku on November 16, 2012, 10:08:39 AM
If Canon really can come up with a pixel design and readout electronics that dramatically reduces read noise, won't that leave the new 5DIII owners out in the cold?  Could the 5DIII get a big price drop and a replacement (sensor only) be released soon?  Could Canon offer a sensor-only upgrade for them?
I would not worry about that.

Haven't you heard? Most people who bought the 5D III claim that "they don't need more DR", and that "more DR is only for people who can't expose correctly."

I don't really need more DR either (well, it's very rare that I do), but I would like cleaner images in the DR I currently have.  Going all the way to the noise floor doesn't yield the cleanest images, while pushing the noise floor down would achieve much cleaner images in the area from the current noise floor up.
But that kinda means that you do want more DR. Getting cleaner results when pushing shadows = more DR. :) And I'm guessing you want Canon to get rid of their trademarked banding too.

Nothing odd about that. It has been on my wishlist for 5 years now.



Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Lee Jay on November 16, 2012, 10:11:51 AM
If Canon really can come up with a pixel design and readout electronics that dramatically reduces read noise, won't that leave the new 5DIII owners out in the cold?  Could the 5DIII get a big price drop and a replacement (sensor only) be released soon?  Could Canon offer a sensor-only upgrade for them?
I would not worry about that.

Haven't you heard? Most people who bought the 5D III claim that "they don't need more DR", and that "more DR is only for people who can't expose correctly."

I don't really need more DR either (well, it's very rare that I do), but I would like cleaner images in the DR I currently have.  Going all the way to the noise floor doesn't yield the cleanest images, while pushing the noise floor down would achieve much cleaner images in the area from the current noise floor up.
But that kinda means that you do want more DR. Getting cleaner results when pushing shadows = more DR. :) And I'm guessing you want Canon to get rid of their trademarked banding too.

Nothing odd about that. It has been on my wishlist for 5 years now.

Yes, to get those cleaner images, I'd get more low-ISO DR for free.  But there's really only one time I've wanted more base-ISO DR and in that particular case, I needed about 20 more stops, not a measly 2 stops more.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Jesse on November 16, 2012, 10:23:17 AM
Who cares about sensors? Where are the lens announcements!!

14-24
50 IS
135 IS
45/90 TS-E
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Woody on November 16, 2012, 10:24:49 AM
After their serious loss of market shares to Nikon in 2012, I expect Canon to return with a vengeance next year for their camera releases. If they still do not fix their sensor problems by 2013, they can kiss their no. 1 market share status goodbye forever.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: crasher8 on November 16, 2012, 10:30:18 AM
I have no clue but what advantage would a Digic5+ or dual Digic 5's have in a 7D2? Would they help in the noise area over the dual D4's?

I'm trying to think what trickle down or even up tech might be helping the 7D2. (5D3/6D/T4i)
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Woody on November 16, 2012, 10:30:31 AM
Yes, to get those cleaner images, I'd get more low-ISO DR for free.  But there's really only one time I've wanted more base-ISO DR and in that particular case, I needed about 20 more stops, not a measly 2 stops more.

I generally get where you are coming from.

BUT that's not how folks in the market for new DSLRs view the situation. Everyone turns to DXOMark these days (including DPReview). Whether DXOMark numbers make sense or not is another matter. It does not change how people perceive Canon sensors when they look at DXOMark camera ranking; not one Canon camera is in the top ten right now. That has a very serious impact on buyers' perception, hence the loss of Canon market shares to Nikon.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: RLPhoto on November 16, 2012, 10:33:02 AM
After their serious loss of market shares to Nikon in 2012, I expect Canon to return with a vengeance next year for their camera releases. If they still do not fix their sensor problems by 2013, they can kiss their no. 1 market share status goodbye forever.

Canon could hold off nikon if they release a stunning lens line-up too irresistible making Nikon's sensors irrelevant. Afterall, Canon has always bragged about their superior lens line-up.

14-24L
35L II
50L II
85L III
135mm F/1.8L IS USM
100-400L II

If these lenses are released next year, I'll be very comfortable with canon.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Jesse on November 16, 2012, 10:35:11 AM
What RLPhoto said!
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Dylan777 on November 16, 2012, 10:43:41 AM
After their serious loss of market shares to Nikon in 2012, I expect Canon to return with a vengeance next year for their camera releases. If they still do not fix their sensor problems by 2013, they can kiss their no. 1 market share status goodbye forever.

Canon could hold off nikon if they release a stunning lens line-up too irresistible making Nikon's sensors irrelevant. Afterall, Canon has always bragged about their superior lens line-up.

14-24L
35L II
50L II
85L III
135mm F/1.8L IS USM
100-400L II

If these lenses are released next year, I'll be very comfortable with canon.

+1.....

My wish list:
14-24L
50 L II
100-400L II
FF mirroless + couple pancake fast prime lenses - 35L, 50L at f1.4 or bigger :o
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: AdamJ on November 16, 2012, 10:50:00 AM
I'm intrigued that the big megapixel body will be sized between the 5DIII and 1DX. If it didn't have its vertical grip, the 1DX would still be a little bigger than the 5DIII, so maybe it will be a 1DX-style body without the grip. Alternatively, perhaps it will have a 5DIII-style body with an integrated grip. Or maybe it won't resemble either. We'll have to wait and see.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: crasher8 on November 16, 2012, 10:57:55 AM
I agree that there are lenses that need a refresh and that Canon shouldn't rest on it's laurels of being the top glass big wig however I just don't see them putting an emphasis on lenses until they win back the body marketshare.
2013 would be great if there was a balance of lenses and bodies released.

7D2
MP Giant
14-24L
50 1.4II (Real USM and better build)
85LII (Faster AF)
135L 1.8

Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: K-amps on November 16, 2012, 11:10:23 AM
A pro aimed EOS M would be nice.

A 7D2 is way overdue.

And the BIG MP camera will be here soon.

Let's see some innovation canon.

Any bets if it's gonna be same Sensor tech repackaged... or something new?


The 7D2 is way over due only because of it's iso noise issue.

Jrista... please.....calm down, deep breaths, whoooo Shaaaa !!   :P
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Rocky on November 16, 2012, 11:26:08 AM
A second EOS-M???  The existing EOS-M has slow AF and hence cause a lots of posters to put it down. Sony, Panasonic, Olympus, Nikon even Casio (P &S), all have FAST AF. What has happened to Canon??
I would buy a EOS-M only if it comes with fast AF.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Lee Jay on November 16, 2012, 11:26:52 AM
A pro aimed EOS M would be nice.

A 7D2 is way overdue.

And the BIG MP camera will be here soon.

Let's see some innovation canon.

Any bets if it's gonna be same Sensor tech repackaged... or something new?

Well, there was a rumor about that:

http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/09/eos-7d-mark-ii-eos-70d-700d-in-2013-cr1/ (http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/09/eos-7d-mark-ii-eos-70d-700d-in-2013-cr1/)

"A new sensor line will appear in 2013 that will be seen across the entire APS-C lineup. Expect to see the first announcements in the first half of 2013.

The delays in developing the sensor was apparently a big reason for the big firmware update for the 7D. It’s also suggested that there may not be a 7D/60D amalgamation in the future. The 7D Mark II will not be an APS-H camera as some have wished/rumored."
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: RLPhoto on November 16, 2012, 11:27:36 AM
A pro aimed EOS M would be nice.

A 7D2 is way overdue.

And the BIG MP camera will be here soon.

Let's see some innovation canon.

Any bets if it's gonna be same Sensor tech repackaged... or something new?

One thing is for sure. If its new, Its going to be very expensive.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: surfing_geek on November 16, 2012, 11:32:09 AM
Any bets if it's gonna be same Sensor tech repackaged... or something new?

I'd love it to be a fantastic new sensor with groundbreaking tech, but the pessimist in me says it'll just be a marginal increase on its predecessor. Having said that, the original 7D was pretty groundbreaking itself, so maybe they'll continue the trend. Good time to showcase some new tech and wouldn't be the first time it's happened in a less-than-1-series camera.

I just hope they keep it as the top of the range enthusiast APS-C it is now, rather than outprice the existing market.  If they release the new big MP camera as rumoured, then they'll have the pro segment covered with that and the 1DX anyway.

Exciting times, roll on more rumours and an announcement date!
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: K-amps on November 16, 2012, 11:33:46 AM
After their serious loss of market shares to Nikon in 2012, I expect Canon to return with a vengeance next year for their camera releases. If they still do not fix their sensor problems by 2013, they can kiss their no. 1 market share status goodbye forever.

Canon could hold off nikon if they release a stunning lens line-up too irresistible making Nikon's sensors irrelevant. Afterall, Canon has always bragged about their superior lens line-up.

14-24L
35L II
50L II
85L III
135mm F/1.8L IS USM
100-400L II

If these lenses are released next year, I'll be very comfortable with canon.

I'd love to have some of these lenses too... but at what prices?

14-24L                                      $2699
35L II                                        $1600
50L II                                        $2400
85L III                                      $3150
135mm F/1.8L IS                     $2799
100-400L II                              $ 3200

 :P


Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: K-amps on November 16, 2012, 11:36:09 AM
"A new sensor line will appear in 2013 that will be seen across the entire APS-C lineup. Expect to see the first announcements in the first half of 2013.

Thanks.... but the T4i was also new sensor tech according to them right?

This is not what I meant.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: pzyber on November 16, 2012, 11:37:23 AM
EOS 7D Mark II

One of these announcement dates will also be for the EOS 7D replacement. No word on specs, but it’s suggested the camera/segment will get a new naming scheme.

Will this be the Canon EOS 2400 or 2500?
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Lee Jay on November 16, 2012, 11:38:11 AM
"A new sensor line will appear in 2013 that will be seen across the entire APS-C lineup. Expect to see the first announcements in the first half of 2013.

Thanks.... but the T4i was also new sensor tech according to them right?


Only because it had PDAF pixels on the sensor, not because of new pixels or new readout technology.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: RLPhoto on November 16, 2012, 11:47:42 AM
After their serious loss of market shares to Nikon in 2012, I expect Canon to return with a vengeance next year for their camera releases. If they still do not fix their sensor problems by 2013, they can kiss their no. 1 market share status goodbye forever.

Canon could hold off nikon if they release a stunning lens line-up too irresistible making Nikon's sensors irrelevant. Afterall, Canon has always bragged about their superior lens line-up.

14-24L
35L II
50L II
85L III
135mm F/1.8L IS USM
100-400L II

If these lenses are released next year, I'll be very comfortable with canon.

I'd love to have some of these lenses too... but at what prices?

14-24L                                      $2699
35L II                                        $1600
50L II                                        $2400
85L III                                      $3150
135mm F/1.8L IS                     $2799
100-400L II                              $ 3200

 :P

I would buy the 135L 1.8L IS USM the moment it hits the shelves.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Dylan777 on November 16, 2012, 11:52:09 AM
After their serious loss of market shares to Nikon in 2012, I expect Canon to return with a vengeance next year for their camera releases. If they still do not fix their sensor problems by 2013, they can kiss their no. 1 market share status goodbye forever.

Canon could hold off nikon if they release a stunning lens line-up too irresistible making Nikon's sensors irrelevant. Afterall, Canon has always bragged about their superior lens line-up.

14-24L
35L II
50L II
85L III
135mm F/1.8L IS USM
100-400L II

If these lenses are released next year, I'll be very comfortable with canon.

I'd love to have some of these lenses too... but at what prices?

14-24L                                      $2699
35L II                                        $1600
50L II                                        $2400
85L III                                      $3150
135mm F/1.8L IS                     $2799
100-400L II                              $ 3200

 :P

I'll take both: 50L II and 14-24L. I can wait on 100-400 II ;D
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: c.d.embrey on November 16, 2012, 12:12:24 PM

No way, no how, could the replacement 7D be a mirrorless camera.  That would kill it for 95% of the users.

Like it or not, mirrorless is the future. For one BIG reason, cost. An EVF cost less money for the camera companies to produce. Less cost = more profit, simple as that. BTW, this is also the reason why menues are replacing analog controls.

Hard to tell what a Canon or Nikon DSLR replacement will look like. My guess is Nikon will go for a Sony SLT style camera, (with an F-mount), and Canon will do something radical (and replace the EF-mount). Remomber that Canon replaced the FD-mount with the EF-mount, when they went to auto-focus (it could happen again).

The question is not if it will happen, but when it will happen.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: RGomezPhotos on November 16, 2012, 12:17:00 PM
As long as the big MP camera blows away the D800, I'm okay with it having the same sensor as the 1DX.  I would hope that a new sensor that would provide them 5 years or more of amazing cameras...
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Lee Jay on November 16, 2012, 12:21:31 PM

No way, no how, could the replacement 7D be a mirrorless camera.  That would kill it for 95% of the users.

Like it or not, mirrorless is the future. For one BIG reason, cost. An EVF cost less money for the camera companies to produce.

No, it doesn't.  EVFs of good quality are actually quite expensive.  RED sells their Bomb EVF for $3,200:

http://www.red.com/store/products/red-pro-evf (http://www.red.com/store/products/red-pro-evf)

I've tested top-of-the-line consumer EVFs like those in the Sonys against the lowest-end OVFs from cameras like the Canon D1000 and the D1000 won easily in every way.  To get an EVF that's even close to the quality and performance of the 7D or 5D, you're looking at upwards of a thousand dollars in manufacturing cost for the optics and microdisplay, and that's to say nothing of the dramatically larger battery you'll need to feed that energy-hungry system, and the dual processing pipelines you'll need to prevent processing time from causing viewfinder blackout.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: ddashti on November 16, 2012, 12:21:38 PM
The big MP and the new 7D should prove to be groundbreaking.
If not, then I don't know what Canon is thinking.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: c.d.embrey on November 16, 2012, 12:23:52 PM
After their serious loss of market shares to Nikon in 2012, I expect Canon to return with a vengeance next year for their camera releases. If they still do not fix their sensor problems by 2013, they can kiss their no. 1 market share status goodbye forever.

I don't pay much attention to DxO score, but a lot of people do. Canon's DxO scores suck ... big time. Sucky score = sales loss. Consumer Reports and Motor Trend magazine were effecting sales for your grand parent generation, and it only gets worse with the 'net.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: jrista on November 16, 2012, 12:26:50 PM
Looking forward to some big mature changes, stabilising the EOS-M range. big pixel and a 7D refresh. Could a EOS-M with a viewfinder and a 7D renaming scheme be one and the same thing?

No way, no how, could the replacement 7D be a mirrorless camera.  That would kill it for 95% of the users.

Totally agree! Mirrorless 7D would be the end of the 7D. I LIKE the DSLR design and OPTIVAL viewfinder...if anyone gets rid of those and goes purely mirrorless with an EVF, I'll NEVER buy one.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: jrista on November 16, 2012, 12:29:14 PM
A pro aimed EOS M would be nice.

A 7D2 is way overdue.

And the BIG MP camera will be here soon.

Let's see some innovation canon.

The 7D2 is way over due only because of it's iso noise issue. It has more than enough MP and features.
If Canon can nail their iso noise issue and bring their shadow noise up to Nikon/Sony standards then it'll have been worth the wait. I just hope it's not another nominal upgrade.

I'm not sure if a big MP camera will shift boxes as much as the current 5DIII and 1DX are. It'll be nice to try one, but 46mp? Really? Like who really NEEDs this IQ?

Your directly equating megapixels and IQ. Megapixels != IQ. If Canon does not fix their read noise, it won't matter if the camera has 46.1mp, the IQ will still have the same limitations as all other Canon cameras. And there ARE people who need that kind of RESOLUTION.

Landscape photographers in particular, who have a tendency to print huge, can always use more megapixels. Sadly, Landscape photographers also consume dynamic range like it was candy, so if Canon's 46.1mp camera doesn't have competitive DR, the better options for landscape photographers would still be the D800. I seriously hope Canon resolves their DR issues with the new 46mp sensor.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: c.d.embrey on November 16, 2012, 12:46:31 PM

Like it or not, mirrorless is the future. For one BIG reason, cost. An EVF cost less money for the camera companies to produce.

Quote
No, it doesn't.  EVFs of good quality are actually quite expensive.  RED sells their Bomb EVF for $3,200:

http://www.red.com/store/products/red-pro-evf (http://www.red.com/store/products/red-pro-evf)

I've tested top-of-the-line consumer EVFs like those in the Sonys against the lowest-end OVFs from cameras like the Canon D1000 and the D1000 won easily in every way.  To get an EVF that's even close to the quality and performance of the 7D or 5D, you're looking at upwards of a thousand dollars in manufacturing cost for the optics and microdisplay, and that's to say nothing of the dramatically larger battery you'll need to feed that energy-hungry system, and the dual processing pipelines you'll need to prevent processing time from causing viewfinder blackout.

Stop living in the past. Time and technology just keep on truckin'. Moore's Law is still in effect and working well.

BTW, the reason that motion picture equipment is so costly is simple ... they don't make much of it. If Sony made severl million Red Rockets the cost would go waaay down (ever hear of economy of scale ??? ) Look at this way, if Canon made the 4Ti at Rrd Rocket volume, it would cost in the multi-thousands of dollars.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: insanitybeard on November 16, 2012, 01:06:08 PM

The 7D noise is certainly the most important to me.
But here's a question - If you have the big MP full frame, why would you need a 7D replacement?

Because maybe not everybody can afford the 'big MP full frame'?
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: c.d.embrey on November 16, 2012, 01:16:31 PM
I'm always looking for smaller/lighter, so I'd be interestd in seeing an EOS-M with an EVF and improved auto-focus.

I'd be happier with a more NEX like grip. Canon has an excellent grip on their DSLRs, so they do know how to do it. Also it would differentiate the purse camera from the pro camera.

No interest in zoomz, just an 85mm f/1.8 (=135mm FF) in M-mount and maybe a 15mm f/2 (=24mm FF). Along with the 22mm f/2 (=35mm FF), it would all the lenses I'd need. YMMV.

Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: EOBeav on November 16, 2012, 01:22:20 PM
There's nothing in there I'm ready to sell a kidney for yet, but we'll see come November.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: c.d.embrey on November 16, 2012, 01:29:14 PM

But here's a question - If you have the big MP full frame, why would you need a 7D replacement?

Because for some people bigger doesn't = better. Not everyone wants/needs a Full Frame camera. Me. I'd wouldn't take a 1D X as a gift, 'cause it doesn't fit my shooting style. I've used a 5D3, but once again, it doesn't fit my shooting style. YMMV.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Lee Jay on November 16, 2012, 01:32:11 PM

Like it or not, mirrorless is the future. For one BIG reason, cost. An EVF cost less money for the camera companies to produce.

Quote
No, it doesn't.  EVFs of good quality are actually quite expensive.  RED sells their Bomb EVF for $3,200:

http://www.red.com/store/products/red-pro-evf (http://www.red.com/store/products/red-pro-evf)

I've tested top-of-the-line consumer EVFs like those in the Sonys against the lowest-end OVFs from cameras like the Canon D1000 and the D1000 won easily in every way.  To get an EVF that's even close to the quality and performance of the 7D or 5D, you're looking at upwards of a thousand dollars in manufacturing cost for the optics and microdisplay, and that's to say nothing of the dramatically larger battery you'll need to feed that energy-hungry system, and the dual processing pipelines you'll need to prevent processing time from causing viewfinder blackout.

Stop living in the past. Time and technology just keep on truckin'. Moore's Law is still in effect and working well.


And it doesn't apply to either optics or light.  In fact, I'd wager you don't even know what Moore's law does apply to since 99% of the people that quote it don't.  When I worked at Intel, we used to make fun of the talking heads that quoted in public a law they obviously didn't understand.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Lee Jay on November 16, 2012, 01:34:03 PM
The 7D noise is certainly the most important to me.
But here's a question - If you have the big MP full frame, why would you need a 7D replacement?

Frame rate, size, file size, cost, and possibly "reach" (resolving power).  A 24MP 1.6-crop camera is equivalent to a 61.4MP full-frame camera.  Even if they release a 46MP full-frame, that's the same pixel size as the current 18MP 1.6-crop sensors.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: jrista on November 16, 2012, 01:37:34 PM

Like it or not, mirrorless is the future. For one BIG reason, cost. An EVF cost less money for the camera companies to produce.

Quote
No, it doesn't.  EVFs of good quality are actually quite expensive.  RED sells their Bomb EVF for $3,200:

http://www.red.com/store/products/red-pro-evf (http://www.red.com/store/products/red-pro-evf)

I've tested top-of-the-line consumer EVFs like those in the Sonys against the lowest-end OVFs from cameras like the Canon D1000 and the D1000 won easily in every way.  To get an EVF that's even close to the quality and performance of the 7D or 5D, you're looking at upwards of a thousand dollars in manufacturing cost for the optics and microdisplay, and that's to say nothing of the dramatically larger battery you'll need to feed that energy-hungry system, and the dual processing pipelines you'll need to prevent processing time from causing viewfinder blackout.

Stop living in the past. Time and technology just keep on truckin'. Moore's Law is still in effect and working well.

BTW, the reason that motion picture equipment is so costly is simple ... they don't make much of it. If Sony made severl million Red Rockets the cost would go waaay down (ever hear of economy of scale ??? ) Look at this way, if Canon made the 4Ti at Rrd Rocket volume, it would cost in the multi-thousands of dollars.

EVF's will never be as good as OVF's, at least, not in the next couple decades at least. With an optical viewfinder you get immediate, true real-time update of your scene, and you don't have any limitations on dynamic range. With an EVF, there will always be some lag, and dynamic range is limited to the bit depth of the screen (which in the case of even expensive EVF's right now, is only a few stops.)

I'll delay going to an electronic viewfinder as long as humanly possible. In my opinion, broadly moving to mirrorless and EVF is taking a huge step back from the quality and accuracy of an optical viewfinder. If I have the choice, I'll never do it. Ever. It's not about "living in the past"...EVF's just have limitations, always will even if they are minimized, and I don't want those limitations.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Lee Jay on November 16, 2012, 01:41:02 PM
If Sony made severl million Red Rockets the cost would go waaay down (ever hear of economy of scale ??? ) Look at this way, if Canon made the 4Ti at Rrd Rocket volume, it would cost in the multi-thousands of dollars.

By the way, you might want to look up what a Red Rocket is, since you don't seem to be referencing the right piece of equipment.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: neuroanatomist on November 16, 2012, 01:56:21 PM
A studio camera does not need an integrated grip.

A vertical grip isn't needed in the studio because portraits are never shot with camera held vertically.  The term 'portrait orientation' (vs. landscape orientation) came into common usage for no reason, whatsoever.  Right.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Lee Jay on November 16, 2012, 02:20:41 PM
The 7D noise is certainly the most important to me.
But here's a question - If you have the big MP full frame, why would you need a 7D replacement?

Frame rate, size, file size, cost, and possibly "reach" (resolving power).  A 24MP 1.6-crop camera is equivalent to a 61.4MP full-frame camera.  Even if they release a 46MP full-frame, that's the same pixel size as the current 18MP 1.6-crop sensors.

That was my assumption - that the larger sensor has the same pixel density - which makes the "reach" the same. If the APS-C is using smaller pixels then we're probably back to the same noise, etc. differences.  There may or may not be a difference in the frame rate, depending on how the data are passed. I certainly wouldn't choose an APS-C over a FF for the file size. Yes, the cost will probably be higher but I don't know how much of the cost difference b/w the 7D and the 5D II, for instance, is due to the sensor rather than other features.

No way there's going to be an under $2,000 46MP full-frame camera that can do 10fps, but there's a decent chance of an under $2,000 20+MP APS-c camera that can do 10fps or close to it.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: LetTheRightLensIn on November 16, 2012, 02:28:30 PM
I don't really need more DR either (well, it's very rare that I do), but I would like cleaner images in the DR I currently have.  Going all the way to the noise floor doesn't yield the cleanest images, while pushing the noise floor down would achieve much cleaner images in the area from the current noise floor up.

???

Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: LetTheRightLensIn on November 16, 2012, 02:30:00 PM
If Canon really can come up with a pixel design and readout electronics that dramatically reduces read noise, won't that leave the new 5DIII owners out in the cold?  Could the 5DIII get a big price drop and a replacement (sensor only) be released soon?  Could Canon offer a sensor-only upgrade for them?
I would not worry about that.

Haven't you heard? Most people who bought the 5D III claim that "they don't need more DR", and that "more DR is only for people who can't expose correctly."

I don't really need more DR either (well, it's very rare that I do), but I would like cleaner images in the DR I currently have.  Going all the way to the noise floor doesn't yield the cleanest images, while pushing the noise floor down would achieve much cleaner images in the area from the current noise floor up.
But that kinda means that you do want more DR. Getting cleaner results when pushing shadows = more DR. :) And I'm guessing you want Canon to get rid of their trademarked banding too.

Nothing odd about that. It has been on my wishlist for 5 years now.

Yes, to get those cleaner images, I'd get more low-ISO DR for free.  But there's really only one time I've wanted more base-ISO DR and in that particular case, I needed about 20 more stops, not a measly 2 stops more.

But this means you actually DO want more DR since the limit of where you start not liking the noise is too high for you. I don't get your point at all.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: LetTheRightLensIn on November 16, 2012, 02:31:02 PM
I have no clue but what advantage would a Digic5+ or dual Digic 5's have in a 7D2? Would they help in the noise area over the dual D4's?

I'm trying to think what trickle down or even up tech might be helping the 7D2. (5D3/6D/T4i)

No they have nothing to do with the RAW image quality at all.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: LetTheRightLensIn on November 16, 2012, 02:36:26 PM

No way, no how, could the replacement 7D be a mirrorless camera.  That would kill it for 95% of the users.

Like it or not, mirrorless is the future. For one BIG reason, cost. An EVF cost less money for the camera companies to produce. Less cost = more profit, simple as that. BTW, this is also the reason why menues are replacing analog controls.


I agree with both of you. I own a 7D and would be VERY disappointed if the 7D replacement was mirrorless. Probably not the most technical of reasons :-) but I like being able to see the view without bifocals, which I can't do with a mirrorless.
Unfortunately, I think the mirror is a holdover from film and probably is destined to disappear.

I don't see how it could be mirrorless since it is supposed to be wildlife/sports action tracking sort of body (not that the AF was anything close to 1 series or 5D3 (and sometimes even tracked worse than 5D2 for a few things at times- although it did VERY well for some stuff, like surfing) that said....).
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: LetTheRightLensIn on November 16, 2012, 02:38:59 PM
But here's a question - If you have the big MP full frame, why would you need a 7D replacement?

For those who must have 8-10fps instead of 6fps and need more reach and less cost than the 1DX. 6fps on the big one would be good enough for many, but it won't be for all and the 7D2 should be less expensive too, which always does matter.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Lee Jay on November 16, 2012, 02:43:41 PM
If Canon really can come up with a pixel design and readout electronics that dramatically reduces read noise, won't that leave the new 5DIII owners out in the cold?  Could the 5DIII get a big price drop and a replacement (sensor only) be released soon?  Could Canon offer a sensor-only upgrade for them?
I would not worry about that.

Haven't you heard? Most people who bought the 5D III claim that "they don't need more DR", and that "more DR is only for people who can't expose correctly."

I don't really need more DR either (well, it's very rare that I do), but I would like cleaner images in the DR I currently have.  Going all the way to the noise floor doesn't yield the cleanest images, while pushing the noise floor down would achieve much cleaner images in the area from the current noise floor up.
But that kinda means that you do want more DR. Getting cleaner results when pushing shadows = more DR. :) And I'm guessing you want Canon to get rid of their trademarked banding too.

Nothing odd about that. It has been on my wishlist for 5 years now.

Yes, to get those cleaner images, I'd get more low-ISO DR for free.  But there's really only one time I've wanted more base-ISO DR and in that particular case, I needed about 20 more stops, not a measly 2 stops more.

But this means you actually DO want more DR since the limit of where you start not liking the noise is too high for you. I don't get your point at all.

It's just a difference in terms, not in technology.  I'm fine with 8-9 stops of total DR, but I'd like those stops to be cleaner.  To make them cleaner, a camera would automatically provide more stops of total DR.  I might only use the upper 8-9, but those would be cleaner than they are now, and those other ones would be available if needed.

Low-ISO DR just isn't that big of a problem for me.  High ISO DR is always a problem.  That said, I certainly wouldn't complain about getting more low-ISO DR since that would make for overall cleaner images, and I'm always for that.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: jrista on November 16, 2012, 03:09:44 PM
If Canon really can come up with a pixel design and readout electronics that dramatically reduces read noise, won't that leave the new 5DIII owners out in the cold?  Could the 5DIII get a big price drop and a replacement (sensor only) be released soon?  Could Canon offer a sensor-only upgrade for them?
I would not worry about that.

Haven't you heard? Most people who bought the 5D III claim that "they don't need more DR", and that "more DR is only for people who can't expose correctly."

I don't really need more DR either (well, it's very rare that I do), but I would like cleaner images in the DR I currently have.  Going all the way to the noise floor doesn't yield the cleanest images, while pushing the noise floor down would achieve much cleaner images in the area from the current noise floor up.
But that kinda means that you do want more DR. Getting cleaner results when pushing shadows = more DR. :) And I'm guessing you want Canon to get rid of their trademarked banding too.

Nothing odd about that. It has been on my wishlist for 5 years now.

Yes, to get those cleaner images, I'd get more low-ISO DR for free.  But there's really only one time I've wanted more base-ISO DR and in that particular case, I needed about 20 more stops, not a measly 2 stops more.

But this means you actually DO want more DR since the limit of where you start not liking the noise is too high for you. I don't get your point at all.

It's just a difference in terms, not in technology.  I'm fine with 8-9 stops of total DR, but I'd like those stops to be cleaner.  To make them cleaner, a camera would automatically provide more stops of total DR.  I might only use the upper 8-9, but those would be cleaner than they are now, and those other ones would be available if needed.

Low-ISO DR just isn't that big of a problem for me.  High ISO DR is always a problem.  That said, I certainly wouldn't complain about getting more low-ISO DR since that would make for overall cleaner images, and I'm always for that.

You won't get much more High ISO DR. That is ultimately limited by physics, and unless someone can find a way to break the laws of physics, High ISO noise and DR are what they are. The best thing to do for high ISO is to improve quantum efficiency, which can improve S/N. If one improves Q.E. but keeps the same pixel pitch, then S/N should increase, resulting in a higher ISO 100 gain, which means gain at all other ISO settings increases as well. The more electrons per digital unit, or e-/DU, the better your IQ should be at high ISO. We are approaching the limits of what is possible with a bayer-type sensor. I think 60% or so Q.E. might be the limit (the color filters themselves eliminate a LOT of light). I don't know enough about layered sensor designs (i.e. Foveon) to know how far they might go...there may be greater Q.E. limits for those even. The only way to get really high Q.E. would be to go monochrome...monochrome scientific-grade CCD's can achieve well into the 90% range for Q.E., and as such have extremely low levels of noise. When supercooled, they achieve nearly perfect DR for the given bit depth as well.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Lee Jay on November 16, 2012, 03:42:23 PM
But here's a question - If you have the big MP full frame, why would you need a 7D replacement?

For those who must have 8-10fps instead of 6fps and need more reach and less cost than the 1DX. 6fps on the big one would be good enough for many, but it won't be for all and the 7D2 should be less expensive too, which always does matter.

Yes, you're right about the cost - even if they did have a new system to move the raw data faster to get the same frame rate it would probably be more expensive, and I agree cost does matter.
Like I said in a previous post on this thread, though, if we assume the same pixel density (i.e., pixels / mm2) for both the APS-C and the FF, they'd have the same "reach", right?

Right.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Lee Jay on November 16, 2012, 03:45:36 PM
You won't get much more High ISO DR.

Yes, I know, and since it's much more severely limited than low-ISO DR, that's a bummer.  However, that's why I buy fast primes and IS lenses - to get more high-ISO DR by using a lower ISO (capturing more light)!
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: jrista on November 16, 2012, 03:45:59 PM
But here's a question - If you have the big MP full frame, why would you need a 7D replacement?

For those who must have 8-10fps instead of 6fps and need more reach and less cost than the 1DX. 6fps on the big one would be good enough for many, but it won't be for all and the 7D2 should be less expensive too, which always does matter.

Yes, you're right about the cost - even if they did have a new system to move the raw data faster to get the same frame rate it would probably be more expensive, and I agree cost does matter.
Like I said in a previous post on this thread, though, if we assume the same pixel density (i.e., pixels / mm2) for both the APS-C and the FF, they'd have the same "reach", right?

Right.

Canon can move 120mp APS-H at 9.5fps...so I would say they DO have a new system to move raw data faster. That indicates some kind of on-die parallel (maybe column-parallel) ADC. If they have that, then they could probably implement a similar kind of digital noise reduction system like Sony Exmor, too.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Kernuak on November 16, 2012, 03:49:24 PM
If Canon really can come up with a pixel design and readout electronics that dramatically reduces read noise, won't that leave the new 5DIII owners out in the cold?  Could the 5DIII get a big price drop and a replacement (sensor only) be released soon?  Could Canon offer a sensor-only upgrade for them?
I would not worry about that.

Haven't you heard? Most people who bought the 5D III claim that "they don't need more DR", and that "more DR is only for people who can't expose correctly."

I think most 5D MkIII owners would prefer an accurate quote and not a misquote. I don't recall anyone saying that increased DR is only for those who can't expose properly, nor do most not want more DR. Don't confuse comments about deliberate underexposure by several stops not being a reflection of reality (which is what was being posted) with accusing people of not being able to expose properly. Likewise, don't confuse assertations that increased DR is a low priority with not wanting more DR. As has been said ad verbatim, each person makes a choice based on the features that are most relevant to them, as no camera is perfect. Some prefer to have more DR, others prefer to have more accurate AF or faster response/frame rate, others prefer something else.


Landscape photographers in particular, who have a tendency to print huge, can always use more megapixels. Sadly, Landscape photographers also consume dynamic range like it was candy, so if Canon's 46.1mp camera doesn't have competitive DR, the better options for landscape photographers would still be the D800. I seriously hope Canon resolves their DR issues with the new 46mp sensor.

Not all landscape photographers have a tendency to print large. Most will not have the customer base to sell such large prints and certainly won't have the ability to print that large without outsourcing at significant additional cost. Also, DR isn't necessarily important for landscape photographers, it may be useful, but most professional or advanced landscape photographers would be using grad filters, which would make higher DR less important to them. Also, increased DR could also reduce the impact of images, as the most important feature of memorable landscape photographs is a full tonal range, including shadows, not to mention composition. There are a number of successful landscape photographers who have used relatively low end cameras and there are even more who have come from a film background who either don't know or don't care about the technology and just use the equipment that gets the job done.
It is the photographer who is the most important part of photography and I hope always will be. Yes, equipment may limit the photographer, but in reality it is rare that it is more limiting than ability, creativity and imagination, especially for subjects that don't really move. It is far more likely that a sports or wildlife photographer will be limited by their equipment than a landscape or traditional portrait photographer (i.e. the typical studio portrait), otherwise the only limits are themselves.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: surfing_geek on November 16, 2012, 04:32:19 PM

The 7D noise is certainly the most important to me.
But here's a question - If you have the big MP full frame, why would you need a 7D replacement?

Because maybe not everybody can afford the 'big MP full frame'?


Because maybe not everybody WANTS the 'big MP full frame'! 
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: jrista on November 16, 2012, 05:13:59 PM
Landscape photographers in particular, who have a tendency to print huge, can always use more megapixels. Sadly, Landscape photographers also consume dynamic range like it was candy, so if Canon's 46.1mp camera doesn't have competitive DR, the better options for landscape photographers would still be the D800. I seriously hope Canon resolves their DR issues with the new 46mp sensor.

Not all landscape photographers have a tendency to print large.

LOL. Ah, good laugh man. ;) It's just a "tendency". Tendency does not imply all landscape photographers everywhere do, just that there is a higher likelyhood of landscape photographers, at least those who are in business and selling their prints, to print larger.

Most will not have the customer base to sell such large prints and certainly won't have the ability to print that large without outsourcing at significant additional cost. Also, DR isn't necessarily important for landscape photographers, it may be useful, but most professional or advanced landscape photographers would be using grad filters, which would make higher DR less important to them. Also, increased DR could also reduce the impact of images, as the most important feature of memorable landscape photographs is a full tonal range, including shadows, not to mention composition. There are a number of successful landscape photographers who have used relatively low end cameras and there are even more who have come from a film background who either don't know or don't care about the technology and just use the equipment that gets the job done.
It is the photographer who is the most important part of photography and I hope always will be. Yes, equipment may limit the photographer, but in reality it is rare that it is more limiting than ability, creativity and imagination, especially for subjects that don't really move. It is far more likely that a sports or wildlife photographer will be limited by their equipment than a landscape or traditional portrait photographer (i.e. the typical studio portrait), otherwise the only limits are themselves.

You are misunderstanding the value of improved dynamic range for a landscape photographer. I own the Lee Filters filter system myself, and own quite a number of lee GND filters, ND filters, etc. The use of a graduated neutral density filter is COMPENSATION for NOT having more dynamic range in our cameras. In some scenes, you just plain and simply MUST, because the scene itself might contain 20 stops or so of dynamic range. But in a lot of situations, if you could actually use all 14 stops of DR modern DSLRs have, you would need to haul out the GND's less frequently, or use less dense ones. I like the power of having GND filters in my kit, but they are not the ideal solution like having more DR is...they have issues...such as darkening the tips of mountaintops, the tops of tall trees, etc....sometimes darkening them so much they come out nearly solid black. I've never liked that about GND filters.

I'd also point out that "having" more dynamic range does not mean your final image "uses" all that dynamic range. The entire point is to be able to push around your exposure in post. Dynamic range improves your active real-world photographic editing capabilities in post. No screen currently on the market, even the top of the line $8000 TV's with adaptive dithering algorithms that can "display" 12 bits of color depth on a 10-bit display, can show the kind of dynamic range we are technically capable of capturing today (with a camera like the D800 anyway). Displaying it all at once isn't the point. You still want to compress it into the smaller 8 stops of the average computer screen, or the 5-7 stops of the average print, and you want it to have that "pop" and saturation that a good landscape photograph does. With more DR, it just means that your deep blacks will have useful detail...rather than just noise (and better yet, in a camera with low read noise, your deep blacks won't have any nasty pattern or banding noise.)

What you print will probably only have 6 stops, but having the full 14 stops of dynamic range to work with initially is the entire point...you can maximize the potential of those final 6 stops.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Woody on November 16, 2012, 06:26:02 PM
No, it doesn't.  EVFs of good quality are actually quite expensive.  RED sells their Bomb EVF for $3,200:
http://www.red.com/store/products/red-pro-evf (http://www.red.com/store/products/red-pro-evf)

How does the Bomb EVF perform for dynamic range and response time with specs like these:

Bit Depth (Color): 30-bit RGB
Display Rate: Up to 60 FPS (Display mode and Camera Dependent)

Not familiar with EVF technology
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Lee Jay on November 16, 2012, 06:34:37 PM
No, it doesn't.  EVFs of good quality are actually quite expensive.  RED sells their Bomb EVF for $3,200:
http://www.red.com/store/products/red-pro-evf (http://www.red.com/store/products/red-pro-evf)

How does the Bomb EVF perform for dynamic range and response time with specs like these:

Bit Depth (Color): 30-bit RGB
Display Rate: Up to 60 FPS (Display mode and Camera Dependent)

Not familiar with EVF technology

Better than most, supposedly.  I haven't seen one.  Still no match for a half-way decent OVF or else so many of the RED owners wouldn't have demanded an OVF (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?34814-More-news&p=474710&viewfull=1#post474710 (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?34814-More-news&p=474710&viewfull=1#post474710)), which as far as I know, they still have yet to deliver.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: expatinasia on November 16, 2012, 06:45:36 PM
Interesting, but if it is only the announcements that will be made in Feb/March, then when would you expect the release? Q3/Q4 2013?! With the first FW update in Q1/Q2 2014 to fix something they overlooked.

Why do I get the feeling Canon are getting more and more nervous about newcomers to the pro camera game such as Sony....
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: HarryWintergreen on November 16, 2012, 06:50:25 PM
A Canon M camera that could keep up with the Sony RX1 would be nice. Wishful thinking perhaps but this exactly what this beyond DSLR business is all about. It's up to Canon to decide where my money will go.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: c.d.embrey on November 16, 2012, 10:53:29 PM
c.d.embrey said:
Stop living in the past. Time and technology just keep on truckin'. Moore's Law is still in effect and working well.


Quote
And it doesn't apply to either optics or light.

What do optics or light have to do with Electronic View Finders (EVF) ??? Optics and light have something to do with the taking sensor, but absolutly nothing to with an EVF. All the EVF does is to display a signal it recieves fro the taking sender.


Quote
...  In fact, I'd wager you don't even know what Moore's law does apply to since 99% of the people that quote it don't. 

Moore's law says, the number of transistors on integrated circuits doubles approximately every two years. Often misquoted as every 18 months  :) I've often seen the 18 month claim in many consumer computer magazines.

A transistor is used to amplify and switch electronic signals and electrical power. The IC is used in computers, say a Digic x. The camera transfers a signal from the taking sensor to the cameras computer, that then passes along the processed signal to the EVF. A LED or OLED screen is used to display the picture. Sounds to me like Moore's Law is aplicable to the performance of EVF, cause the more transistors in an IC, the more work it can do. Therefore in a few years, EVFs will be vastly better than they are today.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Lee Jay on November 16, 2012, 11:17:31 PM
What do optics or light have to do with Electronic View Finders (EVF) ???

Everything.

A very major limit on how EVFs perform is how much time the camera's sensor has to capture the light that is needed to generate the image for the EVF.  If you are light-limited (and, we're light limited a heck of a lot), the EVF has to wait for the sensor to integrate the light for the necessary time, and that integration is the limiting factor on both the quality and speed of the EVF.

Quote
Moore's law says, the number of transistors on integrated circuits doubles approximately every two years. Often misquoted as every 18 months  :) I've often seen the 18 month claim in many consumer computer magazines.

Actually, that's closer than usual, but that isn't correct either.  Moore's law is about economics.  (Emphasis added):

"The complexity for minimum component costs has increased at a rate of roughly a factor of two per year... Certainly over the short term this rate can be expected to continue, if not to increase. Over the longer term, the rate of increase is a bit more uncertain, although there is no reason to believe it will not remain nearly constant for at least 10 years."  -- Gordon Moore 1965

He changed the "per year" part to every two years in 1975 when the time horizon of his original prediction ended.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: c.d.embrey on November 16, 2012, 11:26:43 PM

 ... Still no match for a half-way decent OVF or else so many of the RED owners wouldn't have demanded an OVF (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?34814-More-news&p=474710&viewfull=1#post474710 (http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?34814-More-news&p=474710&viewfull=1#post474710)), which as far as I know, they still have yet to deliver.

Traditionally through the lens viewing, for motion picture cameras, has benn provided by a spinning mirror, it's what many motion picture camera operators are used to and like. The spinning mirroe is both the shutter, and also uses the mirror to reflect light to the ground glass of the optical view finder. Sorta like the flaping mirror of a DSLR. Because of operator preference the Arri D20 and D21 used this style of view finder. The present Arri Alexa range is made-up of 5 models, four with EVFs and the Alexa Studio with an optical view finder.

Operators with a broadcast back ground seem to have no problem with EVFs.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Woody on November 17, 2012, 03:35:15 AM
Operators with a broadcast back ground seem to have no problem with EVFs.

Errr... movie operators shoot video, not still photographs. Still photography captures a moment in time whose duration is as long as the shutter speed of the camera.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: sanj on November 17, 2012, 07:03:29 AM
Operators with a broadcast back ground seem to have no problem with EVFs.

Errr... movie operators shoot video, not still photographs. Still photography captures a moment in time whose duration is as long as the shutter speed of the camera.

I think what he is saying is that since people from broadcast background are used to looking at EVF's, they make the transition easier. I think that is what he is saying.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: GuyF on November 17, 2012, 11:33:30 AM
A studio camera does not need an integrated grip.

A vertical grip isn't needed in the studio because portraits are never shot with camera held vertically.  The term 'portrait orientation' (vs. landscape orientation) came into common usage for no reason, whatsoever.  Right.

And this week's sarcasm prize goes to.......(drum roll) Neuro!! Congrats Neuro, you win a coconut, what are you going to do with it? What's that? Fit a vertical grip to it? That's insane baby, you need a check-up from the neck up! Unless the original post was meant to be sarcastic in which case you lose the coconut but get membership of the National Sarcasm Society (like they need your help).

Sigh, it's been a quiet day....
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Pompo on November 17, 2012, 02:22:24 PM
<div name=\"googleone_share_1\" style=\"position:relative;z-index:5;float: right; /*margin: 70px 0 0 0;*/ top:70px; right:120px; width:0;\"><g:plusone size=\"tall\" count=\"1\" href=\"http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/11/february-march-are-announcement-months-for-canon-cr2/\"></g:plusone></div><div style=\"float: right; margin:0 0 70px 70px;\"><a href=\"https://twitter.com/share\" class=\"twitter-share-button\" data-count=\"vertical\" data-url=\"http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/11/february-march-are-announcement-months-for-canon-cr2/\">Tweet</a></div>
<p><strong>What can we expect in early 2013?<br />



</strong>The 40+ mp camera gets another mention and we should expect an announcement in Q1 of 2013. The camera will be physically bigger than the 5D Mark III, but will be smaller than the EOS-1D X. It’s noted that the sensor is currently in EOS-1D X styled bodies.</p>
<p><strong><span style=\"color: #ff0000;\">c</span>r</strong></p>


What does it mean "the sensor is currently in EOS 1DX" ??
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: x-vision on November 17, 2012, 02:29:39 PM
What does it mean "the sensor is currently in EOS 1DX" ??

It means that the 40+ mp sensor is put in a 1DX body for testing.
However, the expectation is that the body will be different when the high-MP camera becomes an actual product.

P.S. These are all rumors, of course.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: neuroanatomist on November 17, 2012, 02:42:56 PM
What does it mean "the sensor is currently in EOS 1DX" ??

It means the prototypes are 1D X-style, as in they put the new sensor in a modified 1D X. Doesn't mean that will be the final form factor they select.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Stone on November 17, 2012, 03:27:40 PM
I'm looking forward to these announcements.  I decided a while ago to pass on the 5DIII because I just don't consider it much of an upgrade from an IQ perspective.  I have no need for a 40MP monster especially at the price Canon will inevitably be asking, but I'm very excited to see the 7DII and hopefully the next generation of Canon sensors.  I speculate that Canon knows they're losing right now and they'll want to maintain the dominance that the 7D has in the APS-C segment.  My wishlist:

essentially a crop body 1DX which I think the 7D should be as the flagship APS-C camera

as for lenses

14-24 is long overdue, new 50 1.4 to fix the finicky af mechanism.  I thought the 35L needed upgrading, but now that I own it, it's stellar as is.  I'm not interested in a mirroless camera unless it's FF ILC with acceptable af performance.  The first company to produce it will get my money.  A 7DII for action and a compact FF mirrorless for everything else would be my perfect combo. 
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Lee Jay on November 17, 2012, 03:43:25 PM
   
  • integrated grip

Wow...that would make me not buy it for sure!
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Stone on November 17, 2012, 04:12:22 PM
   
  • integrated grip



Wow...that would make me not buy it for sure!

I would imagine that's what a potential 70D would be for.  I add a grip to every camera I buy and it's definitely useful for sports and any time you're shooting in portrait orientation.  I think it would also enhance weather sealing for me since adding a grip always introduces another point of failure for the seals.

With or without a grip, none of these DSLRs can be considered small, I consider the benefits outweigh the minor drawbacks.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Lee Jay on November 17, 2012, 05:07:13 PM
   
  • integrated grip



Wow...that would make me not buy it for sure!

I would imagine that's what a potential 70D would be for.  I add a grip to every camera I buy and it's definitely useful for sports and any time you're shooting in portrait orientation.  I think it would also enhance weather sealing for me since adding a grip always introduces another point of failure for the seals.

With or without a grip, none of these DSLRs can be considered small, I consider the benefits outweigh the minor drawbacks.

A non-removable grip is a catastrophe for me, as it makes the camera not fit where I want it, and it makes it heavier and bigger than it needs to be for the 99% of the time I don't need a grip.  If you want a grip, buy a grip.  I never have, and I never plan to.  That's the beauty of a removable grip - those that want one can have one, those that don't aren't forced to have one.  This is one reason I'd never buy a 1D body.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: neuroanatomist on November 17, 2012, 05:22:57 PM
A non-removable grip is a catastrophe for me, as it makes the camera not fit where I want it, and it makes it heavier and bigger than it needs to be for the 99% of the time I don't need a grip.  If you want a grip, buy a grip.  I never have, and I never plan to.  That's the beauty of a removable grip - those that want one can have one, those that don't aren't forced to have one.  This is one reason I'd never buy a 1D body.

The downsides to a removeable grip are that, when installed, there's a fair bit of flex (which results in additional vibration when mounting to a tripod), and the grip-body attachment has no weather sealing (that's at the battery compartment, and we all know electricity and water don't usually play nice).  The integrated grip is one reason I'm very glad I have a 1-series body.

Since I use a hand strap, simply taking the grip on and off is not something to be done frequently or on a whim.

Also, the accessory grips bulge out both in front and in back, whereas the integrated grip bulges in front only, exactly like the 'landscape' grip. That makes the 1-series more comfortable to hold vertically than a gripped non 1-series body, to me.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: TAF on November 17, 2012, 05:29:21 PM
Thinking about the next 'M' (is the M for mirrorless?); what I would love to see (read: would buy) is a FF body using the sensor/electronics from the 5D3 (I use those high ISO's), a real EF mount, and a simple optical viewfinder.

All for around $1500.  Which is not an unreasonable number if you think about what a 5D3 costs compared to the 5D2, and then subtract off the AF module and viewfinder assembly.

Take that, Leica!

(in fact, if the AF worked decently and it did a similar number of fps, it might replace my 5D3)
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: crasher8 on November 17, 2012, 05:30:46 PM
The only gripped body I have had are smaller film cameras and a T2i. It was awkward. After moving to a 7D and then a 5D3 I appreciate a larger body with well placed controls. Having actual man hands, I could work with an integrated grip someday. If they offered the 5D series with one I'd have bought it. No, that is not a 1Dx.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: TAF on November 17, 2012, 05:32:00 PM
   
  • integrated grip



Wow...that would make me not buy it for sure!

I would imagine that's what a potential 70D would be for.  I add a grip to every camera I buy and it's definitely useful for sports and any time you're shooting in portrait orientation.  I think it would also enhance weather sealing for me since adding a grip always introduces another point of failure for the seals.

With or without a grip, none of these DSLRs can be considered small, I consider the benefits outweigh the minor drawbacks.

A non-removable grip is a catastrophe for me, as it makes the camera not fit where I want it, and it makes it heavier and bigger than it needs to be for the 99% of the time I don't need a grip.  If you want a grip, buy a grip.  I never have, and I never plan to.  That's the beauty of a removable grip - those that want one can have one, those that don't aren't forced to have one.  This is one reason I'd never buy a 1D body.

I'll agree with that sentiment; that is why I ended up with the 5D3 instead of the 1DX.

The additional capability of the 1DX was not enough for me to overcome the fact that it did not fit my small hands well enough, mostly because of the larger grip and bottom.

Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: wickidwombat on November 17, 2012, 06:49:32 PM
   
  • integrated grip



Wow...that would make me not buy it for sure!

I would imagine that's what a potential 70D would be for.  I add a grip to every camera I buy and it's definitely useful for sports and any time you're shooting in portrait orientation.  I think it would also enhance weather sealing for me since adding a grip always introduces another point of failure for the seals.

With or without a grip, none of these DSLRs can be considered small, I consider the benefits outweigh the minor drawbacks.

A non-removable grip is a catastrophe for me, as it makes the camera not fit where I want it, and it makes it heavier and bigger than it needs to be for the 99% of the time I don't need a grip.  If you want a grip, buy a grip.  I never have, and I never plan to.  That's the beauty of a removable grip - those that want one can have one, those that don't aren't forced to have one.  This is one reason I'd never buy a 1D body.

I'll agree with that sentiment; that is why I ended up with the 5D3 instead of the 1DX.

The additional capability of the 1DX was not enough for me to overcome the fact that it did not fit my small hands well enough, mostly because of the larger grip and bottom.

I am glad there are a lot of other people that feel this way
the grip is the main reason i'm not getting a 1Dmk4 for now if no new APS-H bodies are released i may get one anyway
I still use my 1Dmk3 in locations where its bomb proof build and weather sealing are a requirement and anything else would simply die. But i much prefer to use my 5Dmk3 or 5Dmk2. If a gripless 1Dx has been released I probably would have that.
with todays battery technology there is just no reason for the bulk other than the portrait shooting controls which in all honestly i prefer to use the landscape controls and tuck my right arm into my chest I can brace in a much more stable way shooting like this that using the portrait buttons.

Alot (Not All) of people that put grips on because it gives them more big camera cred, just look on youtube for people that give advice about how to look proffessional when shooting a wedding  ::)

I know there are tons of reasons and shooting situations where the integrated grip is superior just not for me or many others so I dont know why they dont make a 1D style non grip version with no dial full weather sealing and the same awesome build with all the features and give users the choice, I think canon would surprise themselves with how many non integrated grip 1series cameras they would sell.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Stone on November 17, 2012, 07:33:41 PM
I'm 6'1 over 200lbs with hands to match, when I used to shoot with a Rebel, I could literally palm the camera.  A grip made that camera bearable for me, the same with my 7D.  I'd love to go with a 1DX but as an amateur who has to find time to shoot, I just can't justify the coin.  Grips are a polarizing subject for sure. :D

I do resent those that say we use grips because we wanna "look" like pros, I use a grip because I frequently shoot in portrait mode, I never have to change batteries and have man hands.  I could care less how I look to other people..lol
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: neuroanatomist on November 17, 2012, 07:39:57 PM
I do resent those that say we use grips because we wanna "look" like pros, I use a grip because I frequently shoot in portrait mode, I never have to change batteries and have man hands.  I could care less how I look to other people..lol

+1, and agree they're more polarizing than a CPL.  ;)

One big factor, for me, is balance.  Many of my lenses are considered 'heavy' (white L zooms, 85L, etc.).  Without the grip, the body+lens is quite front-heavy, leading to more strain on hands and arms. 
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Lee Jay on November 17, 2012, 08:26:17 PM
A non-removable grip is a catastrophe for me, as it makes the camera not fit where I want it, and it makes it heavier and bigger than it needs to be for the 99% of the time I don't need a grip.  If you want a grip, buy a grip.  I never have, and I never plan to.  That's the beauty of a removable grip - those that want one can have one, those that don't aren't forced to have one.  This is one reason I'd never buy a 1D body.

The downsides to a removeable grip are that, when installed, there's a fair bit of flex (which results in additional vibration when mounting to a tripod), and the grip-body attachment has no weather sealing (that's at the battery compartment, and we all know electricity and water don't usually play nice).  The integrated grip is one reason I'm very glad I have a 1-series body.

Since I use a hand strap, simply taking the grip on and off is not something to be done frequently or on a whim.

Also, the accessory grips bulge out both in front and in back, whereas the integrated grip bulges in front only, exactly like the 'landscape' grip. That makes the 1-series more comfortable to hold vertically than a gripped non 1-series body, to me.

The 1-series should be built just like the 1V was - removable grip that's far better designed that the bottom-mounted removable grips of today.  It was good enough for the 1-series then, and to me it was better than the 1-series is now.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: that1guyy on November 17, 2012, 10:45:52 PM
Well this news left a bitter taste in my mouth. I suppose any chance of getting a 70D went out of the window.

I guess I'm done with Canon.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Stu_bert on November 18, 2012, 05:15:01 AM
A non-removable grip is a catastrophe for me, as it makes the camera not fit where I want it, and it makes it heavier and bigger than it needs to be for the 99% of the time I don't need a grip.  If you want a grip, buy a grip.  I never have, and I never plan to.  That's the beauty of a removable grip - those that want one can have one, those that don't aren't forced to have one.  This is one reason I'd never buy a 1D body.

The downsides to a removeable grip are that, when installed, there's a fair bit of flex (which results in additional vibration when mounting to a tripod), and the grip-body attachment has no weather sealing (that's at the battery compartment, and we all know electricity and water don't usually play nice).  The integrated grip is one reason I'm very glad I have a 1-series body.

Since I use a hand strap, simply taking the grip on and off is not something to be done frequently or on a whim.

Also, the accessory grips bulge out both in front and in back, whereas the integrated grip bulges in front only, exactly like the 'landscape' grip. That makes the 1-series more comfortable to hold vertically than a gripped non 1-series body, to me.

The 1-series should be built just like the 1V was - removable grip that's far better designed that the bottom-mounted removable grips of today.  It was good enough for the 1-series then, and to me it was better than the 1-series is now.
Wouldn't that cause problems with the dials on the 1Dx?

I'm an integrated grip guy and miss them if I go back to a 7D or 5D for all the reasons mentioned - balance, grip/size, controls. I frequently walk around all day just holding the 1Ds by the grip - I find them that comfortable and the extra size makes it easier. The extra balance is definitely a plus....

If they could make a 1 series removable with all the buttons n dials in the best position, then I am sure that would appeal to more people... guess that's another trade off  ???
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Lee Jay on November 18, 2012, 09:55:53 AM
Wouldn't that cause problems with the dials on the 1Dx?

As far as I know, there's only one dial on the back of the 1Dx, and the one on the back of the 1V is in exactly the same position, as are the two sets of top-right buttons.  The 1Dx has AF-ON buttons that the 1V didn't, but there's room for them to be in the same positions.  Same with the joysticks.  The only actual issue I can see is that the bottom LCD wouldn't be there without the grip.  Of course, starting the design from scratch, they would be able to make changed to accommodate the design.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Chosenbydestiny on November 18, 2012, 10:50:55 AM
As far as ergonomics, holding a gripped body in comparison to a 1D series body is a very different experience. First thing you'll notice is that the screw dial that locks the grip into place is no longer there, some people like myself hate that thing for when turning the body to portrait as I tend to fiddle or scratch on it sometimes. Once you get used to holding a 1 series, it's more than just an integrated grip, you feel like you're actually holding the entire camera rather than holding a grip that's attached to it. Hard to truly explain the feeling, but the confidence level seems to go up in that slight sense of extra stability and comfort. Like said earlier in this thread I also appreciate the extra LCD, and the tighter button layout. Aesthetically.... Integrated grip bodies also look a lot less tackier than ones with removable grips. Also, whether integrated grip or not, it just looks and feels so much more manly in portrait mode. I used to see myself in the mirror or other male photographers hold their ungripped cameras in portrait orientation and think uhh....yeah....soccer mom pose. Then again if you do all landscape and work with a tripod a lot I wouldn't worry about it. Just my opinion.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Lee Jay on November 18, 2012, 11:30:21 AM
As far as ergonomics, holding a gripped body in comparison to a 1D series body is a very different experience. First thing you'll notice is that the screw dial that locks the grip into place is no longer there, some people like myself hate that thing for when turning the body to portrait as I tend to fiddle or scratch on it sometimes. Once you get used to holding a 1 series, it's more than just an integrated grip, you feel like you're actually holding the entire camera rather than holding a grip that's attached to it. Hard to truly explain the feeling, but the confidence level seems to go up in that slight sense of extra stability and comfort. Like said earlier in this thread I also appreciate the extra LCD, and the tighter button layout. Aesthetically.... Integrated grip bodies also look a lot less tackier than ones with removable grips. Also, whether integrated grip or not, it just looks and feels so much more manly in portrait mode. I used to see myself in the mirror or other male photographers hold their ungripped cameras in portrait orientation and think uhh....yeah....soccer mom pose. Then again if you do all landscape and work with a tripod a lot I wouldn't worry about it. Just my opinion.

First of all, if you care how "manly" you look, you aren't very "manly".
Second, you're still talking about bottom-attached grips, not the 1V-style grip, which is far more "integrated" into the body.

http://superhappycashcow.com/CAMERA/USED%20CAMERA/06-05-12/0300/07.jpg (http://superhappycashcow.com/CAMERA/USED%20CAMERA/06-05-12/0300/07.jpg)
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: brad-man on November 18, 2012, 01:46:39 PM
 CR2
"EOS 7D Mark II
One of these announcement dates will also be for the EOS 7D replacement. No word on specs, but it’s suggested the camera/segment will get a new naming scheme."


Is anyone else wondering why there may/will be a new "naming scheme"? Sounds rather like Canon is considering doing something radical. Is this posible considering how conservative they have been lately? Since it is reasonable to assume it will have the AF of the 5DIII (given the performance of the current Hybrid CMOS AF)  and presumably will use the current Digic V processor(s), that pretty much means a serious change in sensor design-more than just more MPs. Would changing to the 0.18 uM process justify this or is there something more?
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Chosenbydestiny on November 18, 2012, 01:54:27 PM
As far as ergonomics, holding a gripped body in comparison to a 1D series body is a very different experience. First thing you'll notice is that the screw dial that locks the grip into place is no longer there, some people like myself hate that thing for when turning the body to portrait as I tend to fiddle or scratch on it sometimes. Once you get used to holding a 1 series, it's more than just an integrated grip, you feel like you're actually holding the entire camera rather than holding a grip that's attached to it. Hard to truly explain the feeling, but the confidence level seems to go up in that slight sense of extra stability and comfort. Like said earlier in this thread I also appreciate the extra LCD, and the tighter button layout. Aesthetically.... Integrated grip bodies also look a lot less tackier than ones with removable grips. Also, whether integrated grip or not, it just looks and feels so much more manly in portrait mode. I used to see myself in the mirror or other male photographers hold their ungripped cameras in portrait orientation and think uhh....yeah....soccer mom pose. Then again if you do all landscape and work with a tripod a lot I wouldn't worry about it. Just my opinion.

First of all, if you care how "manly" you look, you aren't very "manly".
Second, you're still talking about bottom-attached grips, not the 1V-style grip, which is far more "integrated" into the body.

http://superhappycashcow.com/CAMERA/USED%20CAMERA/06-05-12/0300/07.jpg (http://superhappycashcow.com/CAMERA/USED%20CAMERA/06-05-12/0300/07.jpg)

Offended? It's just not an optimal stance to have your arm curved up and around like that, especially if you're shooting with telephoto. I'm well aware of the 1V style grip. But like I was clearly explaining... If you take a newer 1 series vs for example, a 60d body with a grip, it's not as similar as you may think. Try shooting all day with them, heck, try shooting 200,000 shots a year with them. You don't notice these things looking at photos of cameras on the internet.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: pedro on November 18, 2012, 03:34:34 PM

as for lenses

14-24 is long overdue, new 50 1.4 to fix the finicky af mechanism.  I thought the 35L needed upgrading, but now that I own it, it's stellar as is.  I'm not interested in a mirroless camera unless it's FF ILC with acceptable af performance.  The first company to produce it will get my money.  A 7DII for action and a compact FF mirrorless for everything else would be my perfect combo.
I have plenty of camera with my 5D3 purchased by the end of August. A 14-24 (2.0 ?) would be a great addition to it.
Title: Seinfeld BG-E11
Post by: crasher8 on November 18, 2012, 03:38:43 PM
Seinfeld - Man Hands (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSL4cmFW_GU#noexternalembed)
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Lee Jay on November 18, 2012, 04:29:01 PM
I'm well aware of the 1V style grip. But like I was clearly explaining... If you take a newer 1 series vs for example, a 60d body with a grip, it's not as similar as you may think.

I didn't say they were similar, I said the 1V-grip is.  I've held a 1V-HS and 1DII side-by-side and the differences were minimal.  I couldn't feel any flex in the 1V grip and both felt about the same size and shape.  The difference is, a few minutes worth of work will have the grip off the 1V for people like me that have no need of it and for whom it hurts rather than helps the shooting process.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: x-vision on November 18, 2012, 05:52:29 PM
Is anyone else wondering why there may/will be a new "naming scheme"?

Depends on what is meant by "naming scheme".

The '7D' name will not change, IMO, but it's certainly possible that the 'Mark XX' naming scheme might get retired.
Thus, instead of using the name '7D Mark II' for the 7D successor, Canon might use a new naming scheme.

Certainly a possibility.
I'd be taking the 7DII rumors with a grain of salt, though.

The 7D is a year older than the 60D and is seemingly the next candidate for an update.
The thing is, the 60D has been continuously lagging behind Nikon's D7000 in sales, even though it's been selling for less.
So, it might actually make more business sense for Canon to update the 60D first, not the 7D.

Either way, one of these two cameras will get an update early next year for sure.
And we'll get a new toy either way :P.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: jrista on November 18, 2012, 06:49:38 PM
Jrista... please.....calm down, deep breaths, whoooo Shaaaa !!   :P

Eh, what?
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: jrista on November 18, 2012, 06:56:25 PM
No, it doesn't.  EVFs of good quality are actually quite expensive.  RED sells their Bomb EVF for $3,200:
http://www.red.com/store/products/red-pro-evf (http://www.red.com/store/products/red-pro-evf)

How does the Bomb EVF perform for dynamic range and response time with specs like these:

Bit Depth (Color): 30-bit RGB
Display Rate: Up to 60 FPS (Display mode and Camera Dependent)

Not familiar with EVF technology

If it's 30-bit color is 10-bbp, so that would be 10 stops for the Bomb EVF. Keep in mind, the EVF ALONE is almost FOUR GRAND. That is well beyond even professional grade DSLR prices, and it is optimized for previewing video, not stills. An optical viewfinder won't limit your DR, so as cameras push right up to the limit of 14 stops in 14-bit sensors/ADCs, then move on to full 16 stops in 16-bit sensors/ADCs, an OVF keeps up. Even a 10-bpp EVF that costs thousands would still be limited.
Title: 3d AT B&H
Post by: don on November 18, 2012, 07:13:48 PM
A pro aimed EOS M would be nice.

A 7D2 is way overdue.

And the BIG MP camera will be here soon.

Let's see some innovation canon.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: don on November 18, 2012, 07:15:11 PM
3D at B&H
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Lee Jay on November 18, 2012, 08:07:51 PM
If it's 30-bit color is 10-bbp, so that would be 10 stops for the Bomb EVF.

Maximum.  If the display can actually put out what it's being fed.  Which it well may not.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: hmmm on November 18, 2012, 08:21:04 PM
I believe the "major" announcement will be the 7D mkII.    It will be the first camera with Canon's new-technology sensor, is my guess.

Page down to this page on Northlight (sourced from Chipworks) on what is likely to be coming.   http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_rumours.html (http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_rumours.html)        Canon is finally moving its process below 500 nanometers.

We'll see it on the 7DmkII, then the 70D, then most likely the t5i before anything on full-frame.  No full frame applications until 2014 or so.   But my guess is the new sensor tech will move up the refresh for the 5DmkIII a bit earlier than might be expected based on time between previous refreshes.


The new technology is coming ... we'll see it on the 7D mkII early next year... but the zillion dollar question is how good will it be?

Naming convention: since the sensor tech will be new, a new naming convention would make sense, fitting in with that part of the rumor.   It could be the Canon Apple 1 or something.    Whatever.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: Lee Jay on November 18, 2012, 09:20:11 PM
Page down to this page on Northlight (sourced from Chipworks) on what is likely to be coming.   http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_rumours.html (http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_rumours.html)        Canon is finally moving its process below 500 nanometers.

Canon produces back-side illuminated CMOS sensors with 1.5 micron pixels (equivalent to 24,000x16,000 = 384MP on full-frame) for its compact cameras.  I have three of these sensors and their performance is nothing short of spectacular compared to the performance of my 5D or T2i sensors - per unit of area of course.  I've often mused about the idea of applying the 4-pixel binning approach from the C100 to a full-frame sensor composed of those pixels.  That would give you a 96MP (37.5MP on APS-C) sensor with full-color pixels and almost no read noise.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: jrista on November 18, 2012, 09:24:49 PM
If it's 30-bit color is 10-bbp, so that would be 10 stops for the Bomb EVF.

Maximum.  If the display can actually put out what it's being fed.  Which it well may not.

Agreed.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: jrista on November 18, 2012, 09:35:39 PM
Page down to this page on Northlight (sourced from Chipworks) on what is likely to be coming.   http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_rumours.html (http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_rumours.html)        Canon is finally moving its process below 500 nanometers.

Canon produces back-side illuminated CMOS sensors with 1.5 micron pixels (equivalent to 24,000x16,000 = 384MP on full-frame) for its compact cameras.  I have three of these sensors and their performance is nothing short of spectacular compared to the performance of my 5D or T2i sensors - per unit of area of course.  I've often mused about the idea of applying the 4-pixel binning approach from the C100 to a full-frame sensor composed of those pixels.  That would give you a 96MP (37.5MP on APS-C) sensor with full-color pixels and almost no read noise.

I've heard someone else mention Canon's BSI CMOS sensors. I knew they posted a patent in January 2012, but I was not aware it was in production yet (as far as I knew, it was for FF and APS-C sized sensors). I am curious though...is Canon going BSI to avoid having to move to a process smaller than 500nm? Since the photodiode is exposed directly to light in a BSI design, the transistor size for everything "backside" wouldn't matter as much, since it is no longer in the light path.

According to an article released by chipworks a few weeks ago, Canon DOES have 180nm fabrication processes that are capable of developing large sensors with high refractive index lightpipe technology, which is kind of a stepping stone to BSI (better than sensors without either, but not as good as BSI itself.) I really wish there was more solid information about where Canon is going, for what products, and when.

I held off on the 5D III, I would love to get a 1D X, but I am having a hard time pulling the trigger on that if better stuff is just around the corner. By no means do I think the 1D X or the 5D III are "bad" cameras in any respect...but if a 46mp beauty is released next year for around $5000 to $7000, I'd be pretty miffed that I spent my $7 grand on the 1D X instead, when my 7D serves my bird and wildlife purposes perfectly well (and with extra reach in every case.)
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: x-vision on November 18, 2012, 10:51:27 PM
Canon produces back-side illuminated CMOS sensors with 1.5 micron pixels (equivalent to 24,000x16,000 = 384MP on full-frame) for its compact cameras. 

These are likely Sony sensors, as Canon does not have BSI technology.

Canon does not use it's own sensors for compacts ... except for the 12mp sensor in the S100/S110 and G15.
This is the sensor, based on which Chipworks concluded that Canon has a 180nm (FSI) process already.

The 180nm process should start making appearances in DSLRs soon.
It appears that parts of the 6D sensor are already made on 180nm process, as vaguely confirmed by Canon Japan (http://translate.google.fr/translate?hl=fr&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fcweb.canon.jp%2Feos%2Flineup%2F6d%2Ffeature-smallbody.html):

It's interesting that Canon USA/Europe do not mention anything about that.

Based on the available info, though, I'd say that the 6D will end up having better image quality than the 5DIII.
Note that the rumors floating around are saying that only parts of the 6D sensor are made on 180nm.
So, the 6D sensor is essentially a 180nm/500nm hybrid.

The question is, are the new APS-C sensors from Canon going to be fully made on 180nm?
If they are 180nm/500nm hybrids, performance might not be all that different from current sensors.
 
But if they are fully made on 180nm, they are certainly going to match/beat the current 16mp Sony sensors.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: hmmm on November 18, 2012, 11:40:43 PM

The 180nm process should start making appearances in DSLRs soon.
It appears that parts of the 6D sensor are already made on 180nm process, as vaguely confirmed by Canon Japan (http://translate.google.fr/translate?hl=fr&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fcweb.canon.jp%2Feos%2Flineup%2F6d%2Ffeature-smallbody.html):
  • The newly developed CMOS sensor, introducing a process miniaturization in semiconductor process CMOS

It's interesting that Canon USA/Europe do not mention anything about that.

Based on the available info, though, I'd say that the 6D will end up having better image quality than the 5DIII.
Note that the rumors floating around are saying that only parts of the 6D sensor are made on 180nm.
So, the 6D sensor is essentially a 180nm/500nm hybrid.

The question is, are the new APS-C sensors from Canon going to be fully made on 180nm?
If they are 180nm/500nm hybrids, performance might not be all that different from current sensors.
 
But if they are fully made on 180nm, they are certainly going to match/beat the current 16mp Sony sensors.

Thanks - great find  -- there is a little blurb on Adorama saying:  "the sensor, which contains a new photodiode structure" (http://www.adorama.com/alc/news/13895) ...  which also indicates something new to the sensor design, but that's a little vague.   Just what do "process miniaturization" and "new photodiode structure" mean to the design, exactly, anyway?   ???

It sounds promising: I'm looking forward to seeing some production 6D performance data.   Hopefully within a few weeks now.   
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: pedro on November 19, 2012, 04:07:52 AM

Based on the available info, though, I'd say that the 6D will end up having better image quality than the 5DIII.
Note that the rumors floating around are saying that only parts of the 6D sensor are made on 180nm.
So, the 6D sensor is essentially a 180nm/500nm hybrid.

The question is, are the new APS-C sensors from Canon going to be fully made on 180nm?
If they are 180nm/500nm hybrids, performance might not be all that different from current sensors.
 
But if they are fully made on 180nm, they are certainly going to match/beat the current 16mp Sony sensors.
Without understanding too much of tech here, if that is the case with the 6D, a next 5D could be fully equipped with 180nm sensors. Which would yield more than an incremental upgrade, right? So if the thesis is right, even the next 5D might be called a dream cam again. I am currently in my 5D3 learning curve and the cam is fantastic. First time in 30 years I am back to fullframe again, and it reall rocks!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/guatitamasluz/8196223634/#in/photostream (http://www.flickr.com/photos/guatitamasluz/8196223634/#in/photostream)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/guatitamasluz/8168836149/#in/photostream/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/guatitamasluz/8168836149/#in/photostream/)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/guatitamasluz/8091631310/#in/photostream/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/guatitamasluz/8091631310/#in/photostream/)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/guatitamasluz/8127771730/#in/photostream/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/guatitamasluz/8127771730/#in/photostream/)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/guatitamasluz/8132680792/#in/photostream/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/guatitamasluz/8132680792/#in/photostream/)
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: jrista on November 19, 2012, 10:53:25 AM
Canon produces back-side illuminated CMOS sensors with 1.5 micron pixels (equivalent to 24,000x16,000 = 384MP on full-frame) for its compact cameras. 

These are likely Sony sensors, as Canon does not have BSI technology.

Um, I beg to differ: http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/01/patent-large-back-illuminated-sensor/. (http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/01/patent-large-back-illuminated-sensor/.) Canon does have BSI technology, and for LARGE form factor sensors as well, FF and APS-C!
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: x-vision on November 19, 2012, 11:57:37 AM
... Canon does not have BSI technology.

Um, I beg to differ: http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/01/patent-large-back-illuminated-sensor/. (http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/01/patent-large-back-illuminated-sensor/.) Canon does have BSI technology, and for LARGE form factor sensors as well, FF and APS-C!

This is a patent, not an actual sensor.

Canon does not have any BSI sensors in production, as Lee Jay implied.

Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: x-vision on November 19, 2012, 12:00:22 PM
Without understanding too much of tech here, if that is the case with the 6D, a next 5D could be fully equipped with 180nm sensors. Which would yield more than an incremental upgrade, right?

Right. This should not prevent you from enjoying your (excellent) 5DIII, though :P.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: jrista on November 19, 2012, 01:51:57 PM
... Canon does not have BSI technology.

Um, I beg to differ: http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/01/patent-large-back-illuminated-sensor/. (http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/01/patent-large-back-illuminated-sensor/.) Canon does have BSI technology, and for LARGE form factor sensors as well, FF and APS-C!

This is a patent, not an actual sensor.

Canon does not have any BSI sensors in production, as Lee Jay implied.

You plain and simply stated, as quoted above, that Canon does not have "BSI technology". Having technology does not mean it has to be fabricated in a sensor. Lets stop mincing words. Canon DOES have BSI technology, and their patent is for BSI use in Full Frame and APS-C type sensors. They could put that into use in their next round of sensor designs for next year, and for all we know, they will!

It is a big difference to say "Canon has not used their own BSI technology in a sensor" and "Canon has no BSI technology period".
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: pedro on November 19, 2012, 02:06:40 PM
Without understanding too much of tech here, if that is the case with the 6D, a next 5D could be fully equipped with 180nm sensors. Which would yield more than an incremental upgrade, right?

Right. This should not prevent you from enjoying your (excellent) 5DIII, though :P.

You bet I do! I try out all the ISOs as high as 102k. Well, if I go for another 5D body by skipping the next, I just hope it gets about the same 51k ISOs as the 25k are looking now. As I really like to take photographs of a black cat in the dark ;-) Won't replace it with the next cycle I guess. It is plenty of camera for an amateur like me. According to my frames per year my 5D3 shutter is good for about 15 years;-) So, what I am hoping for is some real improvement in ultra high ISO IQ within the next eight years...thanks to the real tech cracks here I know it takes quite some time, as we are getting to the limits if not some like this fancy new sensor tech really changes the scene. This is holding me back quite a bit from dreaming about ISO 204k photographs in 5D3 51k quality. In upcoming 5D bodies I would love to see 51k as native ISOs. So one could easily try out the 36k range instead of a one step boost up to 51k.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: x-vision on November 19, 2012, 03:40:22 PM
You plain and simply stated, as quoted above, that Canon does not have "BSI technology". Having technology does not mean it has to be fabricated in a sensor.

What if Canon's R&D team just simulated this BSI technology on their CAD/CAM workstations?
And then filed a patent based on this research.
Would you say that Canon has a BSI technology?

Quote
Lets stop mincing words.

A good, common sense definition of 'having a technology' is that you have products based on this technology.
Alternatively, 'having a technology' might just mean that you have filed a single patent based on paper research.

It can be argued that both of these are valid definitions.

So, when I said that Canon does not have a BSI technology, I was actually quite correct - as per the common sense definition above.

Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: jrista on November 19, 2012, 04:19:14 PM
You plain and simply stated, as quoted above, that Canon does not have "BSI technology". Having technology does not mean it has to be fabricated in a sensor.

What if Canon's R&D team just simulated this BSI technology on their CAD/CAM workstations?
And then filed a patent based on this research.
Would you say that Canon has a BSI technology?

Quote
Lets stop mincing words.

A good, common sense definition of 'having a technology' is that you have products based on this technology.
Alternatively, 'having a technology' might just mean that you have filed a single patent based on paper research.

It can be argued that both of these are valid definitions.

So, when I said that Canon does not have a BSI technology, I was actually quite correct - as per the common sense definition above.

Well, I disagree with the notion that a company must be actively producing products based on "technology" to actually "have it". As far as I know, to file for a patent, one must have working prototypes of what the patent describes. Patent's are not generally for purely theoretical ideas, they must be proven ideas. A simple CAD model can't prove the concept, only model it. As such, I would expect Canon to have actually fabricated some prototypical BSI sensor designs in order to be qualified to file for the patent in the first place. Thus, I would still state that they "have" the technology, even if it is not in general use yet.

Sony files for CIS patents all year long, but not all of it has made its way into their regularly manufactured parts yet. They still "have" the technology they have patented...its theirs, and anyone else would have to pay Sony for the rights to use it. Same goes for Canon. Canon FILED A PATENT for BSI technology...they have it, they own it, its theirs...and if anyone wants to use it or infringes upon it, Canon has the right to license or sue. As far as I am concerned, that's a common sense definition of "having technology": When you own the rights to it, you "have it".
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: neuroanatomist on November 19, 2012, 04:23:06 PM
As far as I am concerned, that's a common sense definition of "having technology": When you own the rights to it, you "have it".

So...Apple "has" a rectangle with rounded corners.   :-X
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: jrista on November 19, 2012, 04:28:34 PM
As far as I am concerned, that's a common sense definition of "having technology": When you own the rights to it, you "have it".

So...Apple "has" a rectangle with rounded corners.   :-X

HAH! Touché. ;P

That does, of course, mire us in the discussion of what should and shouldn't be patentable. Personally, I hope Apple gets crushed under Samsung's Rounded Corner Ripoffs (tm), but...that's just me.  8)
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: neuroanatomist on November 19, 2012, 04:37:05 PM
It's a fair patent, and in my current environment, it's already reality.  I'm looking around the conference room in which I'm sitting, and I see window panes, tables, projector screens, and a dozen Lenovo/IBM laptops - all of them are rectangles with angled corners.  I see a clock - rounded, but no corners.  The only objects that I see that are rectangles with rounded corners are four iPhones, two iPads, and the MacBook Air on which I'm typing this post...   :P :P :P
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: jrista on November 19, 2012, 04:46:49 PM
It's a fair patent, and in my current environment, it's already reality.  I'm looking around the conference room in which I'm sitting, and I see window panes, tables, projector screens, and a dozen Lenovo/IBM laptops - all of them are rectangles with angled corners.  I see a clock - rounded, but no corners.  The only objects that I see that are rectangles with rounded corners are four iPhones, two iPads, and the MacBook Air on which I'm typing this post...   :P :P :P

Here's a test for ya: Ask everyone with a smartphone, regardless of brand or age, to put them on a table. Even if there are devices that go back ten years, almost every phone will have rounded corners, and half of the UI's will have icons with rounded corners. :P

I understand the value of a "trademark", and I think it is fine if someone trademarks their tradedress, but "patenting" the "idea" of "rounded corners"...seriously... When did the requirement that patents be original and NON-OBVIOUS go away?  ???
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: neuroanatomist on November 19, 2012, 04:51:44 PM
Here's a test for ya: Ask everyone with a smartphone, regardless of brand or age, to put them on a table. Even if there are devices that go back ten years, almost every phone will have rounded corners, and half of the UI's will have icons with rounded corners. :P

Well, yeah...but most of the phones will have the entire top and bottom edges with a slight curve, or be very slightly trapezoidal, and the UI icons are almost always square.  So none fit the strict definition of a rectangle with rounded corners.  Just sayin'.  :P
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: gmrza on November 19, 2012, 05:20:59 PM

The 180nm process should start making appearances in DSLRs soon.
It appears that parts of the 6D sensor are already made on 180nm process, as vaguely confirmed by Canon Japan (http://translate.google.fr/translate?hl=fr&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fcweb.canon.jp%2Feos%2Flineup%2F6d%2Ffeature-smallbody.html):
  • The newly developed CMOS sensor, introducing a process miniaturization in semiconductor process CMOS

It's interesting that Canon USA/Europe do not mention anything about that.

Based on the available info, though, I'd say that the 6D will end up having better image quality than the 5DIII.
Note that the rumors floating around are saying that only parts of the 6D sensor are made on 180nm.
So, the 6D sensor is essentially a 180nm/500nm hybrid.

The question is, are the new APS-C sensors from Canon going to be fully made on 180nm?
If they are 180nm/500nm hybrids, performance might not be all that different from current sensors.
 
But if they are fully made on 180nm, they are certainly going to match/beat the current 16mp Sony sensors.

Thanks - great find  -- there is a little blurb on Adorama saying:  "the sensor, which contains a new photodiode structure" (http://www.adorama.com/alc/news/13895) ...  which also indicates something new to the sensor design, but that's a little vague.   Just what do "process miniaturization" and "new photodiode structure" mean to the design, exactly, anyway?   ???

It sounds promising: I'm looking forward to seeing some production 6D performance data.   Hopefully within a few weeks now.   

There is quite honestly not enough information to draw a conclusion.  Ultimately, once Chipworks analyses a 6D sensor, we will know.
It will be interesting if Canon introduces new sensor technology in the 6D - I would not have expected that, but would rather have expected the 1DX mark II (or whatever it is called) and 5D mark IV to be the first full frame bodies from Canon to see a 180nm sensor.
It would intrigue me if Canon moved to a new process with the 6D.  If Canon were to make such a move, that would seem to be a clear indication that Canon expects to move comparatively large numbers of bodies in order to drive the economies of scale.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: jrista on November 19, 2012, 05:56:34 PM

The 180nm process should start making appearances in DSLRs soon.
It appears that parts of the 6D sensor are already made on 180nm process, as vaguely confirmed by Canon Japan (http://translate.google.fr/translate?hl=fr&sl=ja&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fcweb.canon.jp%2Feos%2Flineup%2F6d%2Ffeature-smallbody.html):
  • The newly developed CMOS sensor, introducing a process miniaturization in semiconductor process CMOS

It's interesting that Canon USA/Europe do not mention anything about that.

Based on the available info, though, I'd say that the 6D will end up having better image quality than the 5DIII.
Note that the rumors floating around are saying that only parts of the 6D sensor are made on 180nm.
So, the 6D sensor is essentially a 180nm/500nm hybrid.

The question is, are the new APS-C sensors from Canon going to be fully made on 180nm?
If they are 180nm/500nm hybrids, performance might not be all that different from current sensors.
 
But if they are fully made on 180nm, they are certainly going to match/beat the current 16mp Sony sensors.

Thanks - great find  -- there is a little blurb on Adorama saying:  "the sensor, which contains a new photodiode structure" (http://www.adorama.com/alc/news/13895) ...  which also indicates something new to the sensor design, but that's a little vague.   Just what do "process miniaturization" and "new photodiode structure" mean to the design, exactly, anyway?   ???

It sounds promising: I'm looking forward to seeing some production 6D performance data.   Hopefully within a few weeks now.   

There is quite honestly not enough information to draw a conclusion.  Ultimately, once Chipworks analyses a 6D sensor, we will know.
It will be interesting if Canon introduces new sensor technology in the 6D - I would not have expected that, but would rather have expected the 1DX mark II (or whatever it is called) and 5D mark IV to be the first full frame bodies from Canon to see a 180nm sensor.
It would intrigue me if Canon moved to a new process with the 6D.  If Canon were to make such a move, that would seem to be a clear indication that Canon expects to move comparatively large numbers of bodies in order to drive the economies of scale.

Canon seems to do well regardless of whether their technology is the best or not. Canon is pretty much THE household name for photographic equipment, and the 5D III sales seemed to be phenomenal throughout the summer and into early fall, despite its sensors inferiority to the D800's. That seems to indicate sensor really truly IS NOT everything, and it also seems to indicate Canon still knows how to sell cameras better than anyone else...which is what matters. I wouldn't be surprised if the 6D sold in significant numbers.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: x-vision on November 19, 2012, 06:15:18 PM

Canon seems to do well regardless of whether their technology is the best or not.

Aah. You must have missed the discussion about the last quarterly results from Canon and Nikon.

DSLR sales at Canon were down for the quarter (compared to 2011), while Nikon's sales were up.
Canon blamed it on the strong yen and delayed introductions.
(How is the strong yen affecting Canon but not Nikon ??? )

The fact that Canon is down for a quarter is certainly not a big deal.
But if you are down while the competition is up, then you have reasons to be concerned.


Overall, Canon was not doing all that well last quarter.
They've been overpricing left and right in the last year - but if the last quarter is any indication, their overpricing strategy is not working out.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: neuroanatomist on November 19, 2012, 06:56:37 PM
Aah. You must have missed the discussion about the last quarterly results from Canon and Nikon.
DSLR sales at Canon were down for the quarter (compared to 2011), while Nikon's sales were up.

Ever heard the term 'outlier'? One quarter doesn't make a trend. Do you make a lot of your financial decisions based on results from the most recent quarter but ignoring the results from the previous several years? If so, how's your portfolio doing?
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: jrista on November 20, 2012, 06:05:48 PM

Canon seems to do well regardless of whether their technology is the best or not.

Aah. You must have missed the discussion about the last quarterly results from Canon and Nikon.

DSLR sales at Canon were down for the quarter (compared to 2011), while Nikon's sales were up.
Canon blamed it on the strong yen and delayed introductions.
(How is the strong yen affecting Canon but not Nikon ??? )

The fact that Canon is down for a quarter is certainly not a big deal.
But if you are down while the competition is up, then you have reasons to be concerned.


Overall, Canon was not doing all that well last quarter.
They've been overpricing left and right in the last year - but if the last quarter is any indication, their overpricing strategy is not working out.

Your taking the results of a SINGLE quarter and making a trend? Seriously?  ::)

Canon still outsold everyone who sells DSLRs, despite the fact that it was a "down" quarter. There are countless factors that play into a down quarter for a company like Canon, and making less money is still a FAR cry from losing gobs and gobs of money or piling on so much debt you reach junk bond status (things which many other tech and camera companies have done in recent years, including Sony, but which Canon has NOT!) People proclaiming the demise of Canon because they can't make "a billion dollars" is also inane...their $990 million is still more in sales than Nikon has EVER done, to my knowledge. Over the last few years, I believe Canon yearly DSLR sales consistently amounted to about four times as much as Nikon DSLR sales (~8 billion vs. ~2 billion). When Canon starts making quarterly losses (LOSSES, not less profit, but actual losses) in significant numbers over multiple quarters, then their financials might concern me, but so long as Canon rakes in a billion or two per quarter, I have no concern whatsoever. Not with world economies being what they are.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: hydrapenguin on November 20, 2012, 11:00:06 PM
Quote
[When Canon starts making quarterly losses (LOSSES, not less profit, but actual losses) in significant numbers over multiple quarters, then their financials might concern me, but so long as Canon rakes in a billion or two per quarter, I have no concern whatsoever. Not with world economies being what they are./quote]

Very True! I was a bit uncertain as to why everone was so worried about canon not making a Billion last quarter. I mean, 990 million is still a lot, plus they MADE 990 million. They didn't lose a penny. Thats far better than I can say about some companies these days..................Hostess?  ;)
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: neuroanatomist on November 21, 2012, 06:35:48 AM
Thats far better than I can say about some companies these days..................Hostess?

That's more of a labor dispute issue, as opposed to people not buying enough Twinkies...
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: nicku on November 21, 2012, 08:19:38 AM
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<p><strong>What can we expect in early 2013?<br />

</strong>I’m told we’ll be seeing two seperate announcements in back to back months in 2013. We’ll see announcements in February and March, one of the announcements will be a “major” event. Sometimes the word “major” is used incorrectly.</p>
<p><strong>EOS-M<br />

</strong>Apparently, one of the announcements will be to introduce a second EOS-M body. The body will be slightly bigger, and have a viewfinder. They will also introduce at least two new lenses with the body. I’d expect a telephoto zoom and a fast prime.</p>
<p><strong>EOS 7D Mark II<br />

</strong>One of these announcement dates will also be for the EOS 7D replacement. No word on specs, but it’s suggested the camera/segment will get a new naming scheme.</p>
<p><strong>Big Megapixel<br />

</strong>The 40+ mp camera gets another mention and we should expect an announcement in Q1 of 2013. The camera will be physically bigger than the 5D Mark III, but will be smaller than the EOS-1D X. It’s noted that the sensor is currently in EOS-1D X styled bodies.</p>
<p><strong><span style=\"color: #ff0000;\">c</span>r</strong></p>


I will wait until February to see what 7D2 improvements (i mean in terms of IQ) will bring the 7D2.... ( before switching to Nikon);

will be nice to see a 19-19,2 MP ( not bigger) sensor with improved IQ and dual card slots. the rest is competitive even today.

The ''divine gift'' will be a APS-H sensor , but the chances that will happen are very slim :( . But who knows ... judging the fact that Nikon is beating the hell out of Canon lately ... The APS-H sensor can be the ace in the sleeve for Canon, and definitely a hard blow for Nikon.
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: neuroanatomist on November 21, 2012, 09:19:06 AM
... judging the fact that Nikon is beating the hell out of Canon lately ...

LOL. Hyperbolize much?
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: jrista on November 21, 2012, 12:57:07 PM
The ''divine gift'' will be a APS-H sensor , but the chances that will happen are very slim :( . But who knows ... judging the fact that Nikon is beating the hell out of Canon lately ... The APS-H sensor can be the ace in the sleeve for Canon, and definitely a hard blow for Nikon.

How exactly do you quantify "Nikon beating the hell out of Canon lately"? I would really like to know.

Personally I think competition is good, and only benefits the consumer. However, Sony is the one who owns the tech (not Nikon), Sony is the one who is innovating new technology, and Sony is also the one who is also billions upon billions of dollars in debt, with near-junk bond status, trying to build an empire of sensors in a slowing economy. Sony's technology definitely beats Canon's *right now*, but Canon has a better business model. They know how to make money, know how to bank money, and won't sit in the shadows forever...so they could present significant competition to Sony in the near future, and they will be in a better financial position to do so. They aren't billions in debt, they are still raking in billions in revenue each quarter, and it seems clear now that they have a new 180nm fabrication process waiting just around the corner. If I had to pick a stock to invest in, I'd invest in Canon's:

Canon (CAJ on NYSE):
Price: $34.51
EPS: $2.32 (GOOD GAIN!)
Dividend: $0.76/shr/qtr (4.31%)
Price above 50DMA and below 200DMA and climbing (bullish)
Actively pursuing mergers and acquisitions of innovative CIS technology companies to expand CIS technology portfolio
They pay a great dividend (mark of solid financials)


Sony (SNE on NYSE):
Price: $10.05
EPS: -$5.57 (SIGNIFICANT LOSS!)
Dividend: $0.16/shr/qtr (3.11%)
Price below 50DMA and below 200DMA and falling (bearish)
Actively selling billions in new bonds at near-junk bond status to fund payment of prior bonds and further fund CIS development that is already far better than the competitions, and does not necessarily need continued aggressive funding
They pay an ok dividend (not bad in general, but odd that they pay one at all, given their EPS and significant debt)
Title: Re: February & March are Announcement Months for Canon [CR2]
Post by: bdunbar79 on November 21, 2012, 02:27:02 PM
Aah. You must have missed the discussion about the last quarterly results from Canon and Nikon.
DSLR sales at Canon were down for the quarter (compared to 2011), while Nikon's sales were up.

Ever heard the term 'outlier'? One quarter doesn't make a trend. Do you make a lot of your financial decisions based on results from the most recent quarter but ignoring the results from the previous several years? If so, how's your portfolio doing?

Thank goodness most people on here are photographers and not financial advisors.