canon rumors FORUM

Rumors => EOS Bodies => Topic started by: aroo on November 21, 2012, 01:21:46 AM

Title: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
Post by: aroo on November 21, 2012, 01:21:46 AM
Source: Serious lurking on this forum.

Observation: Two of next year's camera bodies will allegedly get entirely new naming systems: the high MP, and the 7D successor.

Speculation: That's because they'll introduce Canon's new sensor technology. Probably 180nm instead of 500nm (on a side note, I'd love to know more specifics about what that means).

Question: If Canon does implement this tech in a 7D.2, could that APS-C camera produce lower noise at low ISO than current FF cameras?

I ask because I'm pretty invested in EF-S lenses but also very interested in a 6D. Low ISO IQ is the #1 consideration for me. Thanks for any thoughts or info!
Title: Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
Post by: sandymandy on November 21, 2012, 02:40:57 AM
Probably yes but i doubt they will make the APS-C line have less noise than the pro models. Alas i think Canon will just change the naming of their products first and we still have to wait some years til the come up with 180nm technology. By then they will likely start with a new FF including a new super duper hyper atomic exclusive sensor design.

p.s.

i wish canon would make rangefinders but then theyd have to reinvent all their AF lenses so it wont happen *cry*
Title: Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
Post by: Gothmoth on November 21, 2012, 09:31:27 AM
Source: Serious lurking on this forum.

Observation: Two of next year's camera bodies will allegedly get entirely new naming systems: the high MP, and the 7D successor.

Speculation: That's because they'll introduce Canon's new sensor technology. Probably 180nm instead of 500nm (on a side note, I'd love to know more specifics about what that means).


i doubt that next years aps-c sensors will be made using a 180nm process.

my wild guess is the high megapixel, high price monster will be the first camera to have a sensor made with a improved manufacturing process.

otherwise it would be complicated to put the needed stuff into the photosites of this 40+ MP camera and get the needed IQ quality.... i guess.

while the 7D and co. show that it is possible with the current 500nm process to produce such small photosites ... it is sure not optimal for a camera aimed at the high quality crowd.
 


 
Title: Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
Post by: Dylan777 on November 21, 2012, 10:44:17 AM
Source: Serious lurking on this forum.

Observation: Two of next year's camera bodies will allegedly get entirely new naming systems: the high MP, and the 7D successor.

Speculation: That's because they'll introduce Canon's new sensor technology. Probably 180nm instead of 500nm (on a side note, I'd love to know more specifics about what that means).

Question: If Canon does implement this tech in a 7D.2, could that APS-C camera produce lower noise at low ISO than current FF cameras?
I ask because I'm pretty invested in EF-S lenses but also very interested in a 6D. Low ISO IQ is the #1 consideration for me. Thanks for any thoughts or info!

WISHFUL thinking, but count me in when the techonoly is here. By then, FF sensor should be noise FREEEEEE
Title: Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
Post by: Mt Spokane Photography on November 21, 2012, 02:58:29 PM
Source: Serious lurking on this forum.

Observation: Two of next year's camera bodies will allegedly get entirely new naming systems: the high MP, and the 7D successor.

Speculation: That's because they'll introduce Canon's new sensor technology. Probably 180nm instead of 500nm (on a side note, I'd love to know more specifics about what that means).

Question: If Canon does implement this tech in a 7D.2, could that APS-C camera produce lower noise at low ISO than current FF cameras?

I ask because I'm pretty invested in EF-S lenses but also very interested in a 6D. Low ISO IQ is the #1 consideration for me. Thanks for any thoughts or info!
I doubt if we will see a APS-C camera with lower noise than a 5D MK III.  There is such a large difference, and improving noise by even 1/2 stop is a big deal.
If Canon actually is able to use a rear illuminated sensor as in their recent patent, then we might see a 1 stop gain, which would be huge.  I'm hoping to see that happen, it would likely appear in a 7D MK II first.
The 180 nm technology allows more pixels, but I doubt if it improves 18mp sensors by more than a tiny amount.
Canon is claiminng that they will have a 100% robotic assembly line.  Thats likely where development money is going.  Canon's strong point is low cost production of very good products, but not necessarily the best.  They can price lower than the competition and still make a larger profit.
Title: Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
Post by: Edwin Herdman on November 21, 2012, 06:31:20 PM
Yeah, less noise than the 5D Mark III is definitely wishful thinking.  The 6D appears to be improving significantly on the 5D, and it's notable in some situations, but for a better idea what a 7D to a Mark II improvement would look like, it'd probably be better to compare 5D Mark II images with the 5D III.  More time has lapsed since the 6D release but if the 7D releases in early quarters of next year it should be a roughly similar timeframe.

What I'm curious to know is whether there will be another APS-H system.  I'm not especially well set-up for one, lens-wise, but I would be able to get used to it, I'm sure.  If the sensor exceeded the 7D's resolution (or at least met it) taking into account sensor size differences, it'd be a worthwhile all-around upgrade, with the benefit of more light capturing ability and wider perspectives when needed, and by a fair margin.

APS-H reintroduction would also account for a new series name.
Title: Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
Post by: x-vision on November 21, 2012, 07:04:50 PM
Question: If Canon does implement this tech in a 7D.2, could that APS-C camera produce lower noise at low ISO than current FF cameras?

Even if the 7DII sensor is made on the rumored new tech, the best we can hope for is performance similar to the 1DIV and 5DII. 
Just consider that for 1 stop better ISO performance, the sensor needs to be 2x better, basically.
Title: Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
Post by: neuroanatomist on November 21, 2012, 07:08:36 PM
Even if the 7DII sensor is made on the rumored new tech, the best we can hope for is performance similar to the 1DIV and 5DII. 

Works for me, I'd preorder such a camera in a heartbeat (or, realistically, within a few hours of preorders being possible, which is what I did with the 1D X).
Title: Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
Post by: wickidwombat on November 21, 2012, 07:17:02 PM
Even if the 7DII sensor is made on the rumored new tech, the best we can hope for is performance similar to the 1DIV and 5DII. 

Works for me, I'd preorder such a camera in a heartbeat (or, realistically, within a few hours of preorders being possible, which is what I did with the 1D X).

Ditto if the new 7D as an APS-C camera had IQ = to the 1Dmk4 it would be pretty awesome.
However I would not hold my breath for this being the case
Title: Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
Post by: x-vision on November 21, 2012, 11:04:49 PM
Ditto if the new 7D as an APS-C camera had IQ = to the 1Dmk4 it would be pretty awesome.
However I would not hold my breath for this being the case

1DIV-level of performance shouldn't be all that difficult to achieve with a 1.6x sensor made on a newer tech.
Provided that MPs are kept in check, of course.

The question is, what will Canon do with the 7D successor.
Will they go for a more pro-oriented body or a more general-purpose body?

If the former, I could see the 7DII using an improved 16-18mp sensor, which I'm sure will match the 1DIV in image quality.

But Canon might as well decide to crank up the megapixels.
In that case, it's hard to tell if the 7D successor will be even called 7DII  :-*.
Title: Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
Post by: Marine03 on November 22, 2012, 12:50:47 AM
Ditto if the new 7D as an APS-C camera had IQ = to the 1Dmk4 it would be pretty awesome.
However I would not hold my breath for this being the case

1DIV-level of performance shouldn't be all that difficult to achieve with a 1.6x sensor made on a newer tech.
Provided that MPs are kept in check, of course.

The question is, what will Canon do with the 7D successor.
Will they go for a more pro-oriented body or a more general-purpose body?

If the former, I could see the 7DII using an improved 16-18mp sensor, which I'm sure will match the 1DIV in image quality.

But Canon might as well decide to crank up the megapixels.
In that case, it's hard to tell if the 7D successor will be even called 7DII  :-*.

As long as we're talking 7D successor just look at the current line up, as rumors are stating 60D is dead, but lets face it minus 1fps the T4i is nearly a 60D. 

Im guessing the 7D2 will have its great new sensor, be 21MP and 10FPS  with a 43pt AF built in wifi and take SD cards.  End of story. 
Title: Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
Post by: jukka on November 22, 2012, 06:43:43 AM
Source: Serious lurking on this forum.

Observation: Two of next year's camera bodies will allegedly get entirely new naming systems: the high MP, and the 7D successor.

Speculation: That's because they'll introduce Canon's new sensor technology. Probably 180nm instead of 500nm (on a side note, I'd love to know more specifics about what that means).

Question: If Canon does implement this tech in a 7D.2, could that APS-C camera produce lower noise at low ISO than current FF cameras?

I ask because I'm pretty invested in EF-S lenses but also very interested in a 6D. Low ISO IQ is the #1 consideration for me. Thanks for any thoughts or info!

There is no sign that Canon has invested money in a new sensor technology
What they can do is  to move the ADC closer to the readout points and improving the signal path way.
If there are any  improvements in the latest camera it is probably noise reduction and already in the raw file stage and in the red and blue channels.

Canon can not with their current technology make  small circuit solutions that other manufacturers can do today, for example Sony, Omnivision Aptina etc.
Title: Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
Post by: aroo on November 22, 2012, 01:25:10 PM
Thanks, everyone. I understand now that read noise is much more limiting than sensor noise. My wishful thinking is due in part to the exponential performance increases we're constantly seeing in other technology fields. A system that's twice or ten times as good as one a few years old doesn't seem unreasonable these days.
Title: Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
Post by: Gothmoth on November 22, 2012, 05:07:01 PM
There is no sign that Canon has invested money in a new sensor technology

because you have inside information what canon does and what not?
canons internals are an open book to you?

Quote
Canon can not with their current technology make  small circuit solutions that other manufacturers can do today

well there are plenty of different opinions in this other thread about the manufacturing process.
and chipworks stated otherwise too.

canon is doing smaller structures then 500nm actually.. but not for their cmos sensors yet.


i really donĀ“t think you have an full overview about what canon is doing.
Title: Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
Post by: jukka on November 23, 2012, 10:09:20 AM
1. Canon needs to invest 1 billion to get a sensor line similar to Sony, this investment would be seen in Canon's corporate report and as an investment, public paper
2. Canon need to invest in Nikons steppers
3. Canon need to invest in a new lens from Carl Zeiss in order to expose a larger surface and with higher accuracy then they can now.

4. Scan or stitch smaller sensors together is not profitable=expensive
5.The only ones who use Canon sensors is Canon, and Canon sensor department internal debits 24x36 sensors at a high price/cost .
5. If you have read the other tread, you have already got the answers.
Title: Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
Post by: neuroanatomist on November 23, 2012, 10:51:57 AM
1. Canon needs to invest 1 billion to get a sensor line similar to Sony, this investment would be seen in Canon's corporate report and as an investment, public paper
2. Canon need to invest in Nikons steppers
3. Canon need to invest in a new lens from Carl Zeiss in order to expose a larger surface and with higher accuracy then they can now.

Need to?  Why?  Are they behind in market share?  Failing to make a profit?  What's the corporate incentive that drives this 'need'?
Title: Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
Post by: jukka on November 23, 2012, 11:27:38 AM
1. Canon needs to invest 1 billion to get a sensor line similar to Sony, this investment would be seen in Canon's corporate report and as an investment, public paper
2. Canon need to invest in Nikons steppers
3. Canon need to invest in a new lens from Carl Zeiss in order to expose a larger surface and with higher accuracy then they can now.

Need to?  Why?  Are they behind in market share?  Failing to make a profit?  What's the corporate incentive that drives this 'need'?



the question was:
Speculation: That's because they'll introduce Canon's new sensor technology. Probably 180nm instead of 500nm (on a side note, I'd love to know more specifics about what that means).



the answers was : Canon can not with their current technology.  make  small circuit solutions that other manufacturers can do  for larger sensors. Canon  can do it for compact cameras small sensor but to make a 24x36 solutions  it will  costs a huge investment , and  if  it should be cost efficient ,ie without a stitch up or scanning solutions
Title: Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
Post by: jocau on November 23, 2012, 12:19:25 PM
I'm also looking forward to the 6D (and will probably buy it). I'm just scared that the next APS-C sensors from Canon will be so good that they are better than the 6D sensor when it comes down to DR and low ISO noise.
Title: Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
Post by: jukka on November 23, 2012, 01:25:25 PM
I'm also looking forward to the 6D (and will probably buy it). I'm just scared that the next APS-C sensors from Canon will be so good that they are better than the 6D sensor when it comes down to DR and low ISO noise.

Why, in 8 years canon has stick to the same sensor solution in APS and 24x36mm and refined it  , why do you think Canon has a new APS tech going on?
IF they have, why not already in the 1DX? Canon's most expensive camera? Canon's flagship.
Title: Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
Post by: RLPhoto on November 23, 2012, 01:29:31 PM
I get usable 12,800 Color and 25,600 B&W's out of my MK3. How much more ISO performance could one really need?!

That kind of performance in a APS-C sensor would be groundbreaking.
Title: Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
Post by: jukka on November 23, 2012, 01:32:33 PM
I get usable 12,800 Color and 25,600 B&W's out of my MK3. How much more ISO performance could one really need?!

That kind of performance in a APS-C sensor would be groundbreaking.

Yep, 2,3 times better, not possible with todays Canons or others   tech
Title: Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
Post by: jocau on November 23, 2012, 01:35:26 PM
I get usable 12,800 Color and 25,600 B&W's out of my MK3. How much more ISO performance could one really need?!

That kind of performance in a APS-C sensor would be groundbreaking.

Because every new month/year, is a month/year closer to new Canon sensor technology. And they have been lagging behind Sony sensors for quite some years now. So maybe they are almost ready to strike back...
Title: Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
Post by: jukka on November 23, 2012, 01:45:58 PM
I get usable 12,800 Color and 25,600 B&W's out of my MK3. How much more ISO performance could one really need?!

That kind of performance in a APS-C sensor would be groundbreaking.

Because every new month/year, is a month/year closer to new Canon sensor technology. And they have been lagging behind Sony sensors for quite some years now. So maybe they are almost ready to strike back...

no sign of new sensor line, and it is impossible to make  a APS area  who are 2,3-2,5 times better than a 24x36mm sensor area  with todays  silicon solution, back light solution has not the same inpact as it have on a small 1,4 micron cell
Title: Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
Post by: adhocphotographer on November 23, 2012, 01:51:47 PM
It would not make sense for them to release a APS-C camera that is equal to or better than the current FF sensors...  but if they did, it would be in the price range of the 1DX.

If they did have the tech to do it right now, why would they? there is not enough market pressure for them to discard possible profits and. they are still making money on the current tech...  it is dumb for them to not ride the gravy train!

Just my 2 pence! :)
Title: Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
Post by: aroo on November 23, 2012, 02:06:56 PM
I get usable 12,800 Color and 25,600 B&W's out of my MK3. How much more ISO performance could one really need?!

I'd like to be able to bump exposure of an ISO 100 image just a little bit during RAW conversion without all the shadows taking on lots of fixed pattern noise.
Title: Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
Post by: jukka on November 23, 2012, 07:00:14 PM
I get usable 12,800 Color and 25,600 B&W's out of my MK3. How much more ISO performance could one really need?!

I'd like to be able to bump exposure of an ISO 100 image just a little bit during RAW conversion without all the shadows taking on lots of fixed pattern noise.

pattern noise and banding, you must cope with that as long Canon are not dealing with theirs read out problems.
Nikon D4, D3s etc can handle it and it with out any banding ,and  it  is a Nikon / Renesas solution and  close to 1dx.5dmk3 etc  with the read out structure and not a Sony solution as in D800, d7000  1dx  d600 with column wise  ADC at the sensor edge
We are some people who think Canon is sloppy regarding  the read out signal  and they can introduce a better solution to even out banding.
Title: Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
Post by: ScottyP on November 23, 2012, 07:30:00 PM
Source: Serious lurking on this forum.

Observation: Two of next year's camera bodies will allegedly get entirely new naming systems: the high MP, and the 7D successor.

Speculation: That's because they'll introduce Canon's new sensor technology. Probably 180nm instead of 500nm (on a side note, I'd love to know more specifics about what that means).

Question: If Canon does implement this tech in a 7D.2, could that APS-C camera produce lower noise at low ISO than current FF cameras?

I ask because I'm pretty invested in EF-S lenses but also very interested in a 6D. Low ISO IQ is the #1 consideration for me. Thanks for any thoughts or info!
I doubt if we will see a APS-C camera with lower noise than a 5D MK III.  There is such a large difference, and improving noise by even 1/2 stop is a big deal.
If Canon actually is able to use a rear illuminated sensor as in their recent patent, then we might see a 1 stop gain, which would be huge.  I'm hoping to see that happen, it would likely appear in a 7D MK II first.
The 180 nm technology allows more pixels, but I doubt if it improves 18mp sensors by more than a tiny amount.
Canon is claiminng that they will have a 100% robotic assembly line.  Thats likely where development money is going.  Canon's strong point is low cost production of very good products, but not necessarily the best.  They can price lower than the competition and still make a larger profit.

We don't know if they "can" price lower than the competition.  We do know that they "don't." :P
Title: Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
Post by: jukka on November 23, 2012, 08:38:10 PM
They can not price the sensors lower than for example Sony if they will have the same tech.
Even today the sensors department with the old tech have a high internal price  for a  24x36mm sensor.
And Canon does not make the  whole assembly in-house,  it means that the sensor waffers are  packed dust free and transported to a collaborative partner from one clean room to another, which is time consuming and   expensive.
Title: Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
Post by: Chuck Alaimo on November 24, 2012, 02:57:35 PM
interesting topic. 

It would not make sense for them to release a APS-C camera that is equal to or better than the current FF sensors...  but if they did, it would be in the price range of the 1DX.


I doubt APS-C can, at this stage, equal or better FF sensors.  But, I bet they can come close.  If they can come close then I could see the direction of the 7d2 being the smaller kid brother to the 1dx. I could see a body like that fitting in the range between the 6d and the 5d3. Canon has no reason to make an aps-c in the price range of a 1dx --- then it would be too much direct competion for 2 sports bodies.

If there is another body in the 1dx range my guess is it will be the big MP body, which would be in a totally different league than the 1dx.  Incredible res, much improved DR and low ISO performance, and far lower fps.  The 1dx would still be valid, only difference to canon is that only those that need what a 1dx would do would buy it, those printing giant landscape prints nad doing high level studio work can buy the big MP monster.
Title: Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
Post by: Krob78 on November 24, 2012, 04:53:56 PM
Even if the 7DII sensor is made on the rumored new tech, the best we can hope for is performance similar to the 1DIV and 5DII. 

Works for me, I'd preorder such a camera in a heartbeat (or, realistically, within a few hours of preorders being possible, which is what I did with the 1D X).
++ Works for me, I'd be all over that one!
Title: Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
Post by: MaxPower on November 24, 2012, 06:09:30 PM
I think it would make lot sense for canon, if next year aps-c maybe aps-h cameras are the first with a 180nm sensor. The yield rate are higher with a smaller sensor. I would like to see equal iq to current ff, but I wouldn't bet on it.
Title: Re: Next year's APS-C vs. this year's FF
Post by: jukka on November 24, 2012, 06:11:18 PM
well if the best is 1dmk 4 then  you can count out what the numbers will be with a 24x36 sensor regarding FWC and read out noise.

Today canon is behind   the best players in the market regarding FWC and read out noise=DR