canon rumors FORUM

Rumors => EOS Bodies => Topic started by: Canon Rumors on November 30, 2012, 08:34:18 AM

Title: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: Canon Rumors on November 30, 2012, 08:34:18 AM

Where will the EOS 7D fit?

Some mentions about who the EOS 7D Mark II is going to be marketed too. It’s suggested the camera will be “firmly” aimed at the nature and sports market. The 10fps feature we and others have been told about is a big part of the plan. The camera will also get some technologies from the EOS-1D X, like the AF system and noise performance. While it may not have 61 focus points, the performance could be on par.


A different megapixel count of 21mp has also been mentioned. There’s a good chance various configurations of test cameras exist.


Source: [NL]


cr


Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: surfing_geek on November 30, 2012, 08:42:52 AM
I get the feeling that this means it's going to be vastly more expensive than the 7D was at release!
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: PackLight on November 30, 2012, 09:00:44 AM
I could have made this rumor up. In fact I think I did when the 1D X was released.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: StepBack on November 30, 2012, 09:07:35 AM
I don't think Canon will let us nail the price. What would be the drama? Unless they want to make a lottery out of it. Guess the price within a penny and win a UV filter. I heard 1999 - 2099 and with say a 39-45 pt AF with one dual cross type and the rest of the makeup the same that would be right. Apparently they regard the sensor size as the symbol of excellence and not the dual DiGIC's. Were they to try to sell a top shelf APS-C and I'm dreaming here because no one knows what the suits in marketing drink at the median between the 6D and 5D III I think the stores would be sitting on inventory until Black Friday. I don't care what they say in the trades about the 5D3 sales I don't see much noise online so I'm guessing the push from the resellers is an indication they pegged the Mark III too high. I'll bet they don't learn anything either. How about a nice mirrorless with a full frame and a dozen light weight (under 8 oz.) lenses to choose from for say 1499 including a 24 F.2. People would grab that and never look back.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: TWI by Dustin Abbott on November 30, 2012, 09:11:18 AM
The more new Canon products that get released at stratospheric prices makes the release of the 40mm pancake all the more amazing.  I don't think that I have heard anyone say that it is overpriced, and they are clearly selling like hotcakes.  A few more products like that would help to engender a lot of good will for Canon.  Good value for the money:  what a novel concept!

I am not the intended market for the 7D MKII at all.  I run my 60D in high speed mode only when I am shooting bracketed photos handheld.  I just wish my 5DII had the same option.  I am more of a deliberate shooter.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: PerfectSavage on November 30, 2012, 09:17:06 AM
It's not going to be aimed solely at sports and nature, it is going to be what it is today -  the flagship APS-C camera in the Canon lineup - only better - regardless of what you typically shoot.  The 60D is a really nice camera but it isn't a 7D nor was it ever intended to be.  I've beat the hell out of two 7Ds, one of which I got the month it was launched and they're tanks.  IMO, they're slightly more solid than the 5D2 build/sealing wise.

A 7D2 addressing the noise at higher ISOs is going to fly off the shelves.  The AF is fantastic on the current 7D, so even a marginal improvement on a 7D2 would be all gravy.  Of course it will be more money...at least for the first 8 months, just like every other camera that has been introduced.  I'm not in the market for another APS-C right now, so whether it's $1,600 or $2,600 doesn't really matter to me.  I AM in the market to replace a 5D2 that has been dropped one too many times, so will continue to watch the 5D3 pricing (though concerned about the repeatedly reported softness in the 5D3 video also experienced in the 6D).  Lots of new cameras in the market and competition is good, let the competition do what it will to pricing.  I just don't understand the trolls that complain every time a new version of anything (camera, lens, tripod) comes out with a price increase...especially the ones that aren't in the market anyway.  If you can't afford it, then buy a different camera; it's like complaining to Mercedes every time a new C class comes out with more features but a higher price... go buy a Honda or Toyota already, both great cars.  If your Nissan Altima only has 17,000 miles on it and it's just two years old, why are you looking at new car prices anyway?
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: Lee Jay on November 30, 2012, 09:41:02 AM
f/8 AF, flexible video crop, 5D AF system, low read noise.  That would be perfect.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: preppyak on November 30, 2012, 09:50:29 AM
It's not going to be aimed solely at sports and nature, it is going to be what it is today -  the flagship APS-C camera in the Canon lineup - only better - regardless of what you typically shoot.  The 60D is a really nice camera but it isn't a 7D nor was it ever intended to be.
And the 60D will be going the way of the dodo according to the rumor

"The current 7D will continue for some time and surplant the 60D, when the 700D comes along with increased specifications."

Which means there is room for a higher level (and pricier) 7DII, costing a similar price as the 6D, but aiming at a different market. Then they'd have a nice sports/nature camera for $2k, a nice landscape/portrait camera for $2k, and a nice street/wedding/etc camera for $3k. And if you can't afford those, the 700D is <$1k, and the current 7D will probably drop a few hundred bucks and be in the $12-1300 range (which is where the 60D retails)
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: unfocused on November 30, 2012, 10:07:00 AM
It's not going to be aimed solely at sports and nature, it is going to be what it is today -  the flagship APS-C camera in the Canon lineup - only better - regardless of what you typically shoot. 

Yes. The 5DIII is optimized for wedding photographers, but that doesn't make it useless for others. I can see a 7DII optimized for sports and nature, but still a very good all-around camera.

This is shrewd marketing on the part of Canon and one reason why they continue to remain the industry leader. The D800 is a very nice camera, but it doesn't have a core constituency that must have it. The 5DIII on the other hand, is a must for wedding photographers because it gives them a competitive edge. That allows Canon a solid foundation of customers that they can build on. That doesn't make the 5DIII any less of a camera even if you never go near a wedding.

I can see a 7DII that becomes the must have camera for sports and nature shooters, but at 21mp with improvements in noise and dynamic range, it will be a great camera even if the only birds you are interested in come from Colonel Sanders.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: TWI by Dustin Abbott on November 30, 2012, 10:10:55 AM
I wonder about the articulating screen?  I was personally disappointed when the MKIII did not employ it (I find it very handy on my 60D in many situations, not the least of which being low angle tripod shots).  It was that feature that tipped me towards the 60D instead of the 7D.  After using it for nearly two years, I still don't regret my decision.  Regarding the screen:  they have been employing it regularly on the Rebel series, but so far the 60D has been the only step-up model to employ it.

The 60D seemed to be an attempt to create a new market below the 7D but above the Rebel series, and from what I understand has actually sold very well and continues to be a very popular model.  The rumor that it is going to be ditched without a successor is curious to me, as it will leave Canon without a APS-C model essentially between $1000 and probably close to $2000 (other than continuing to offer the 7D MKI) and also remove a strong seller from Canon's lineup.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: PackLight on November 30, 2012, 10:17:25 AM
There is  a reason this rumor can't be real.
It makes to much sense.

Who would have believed a year berfor the 1D X was announced that the 1Ds IV would not happen?

I did hear the rumor once that there would be no 1Ds IV but the rumor just didn't make sense. Why would Canon make an all in one camera?

When the 1D X was released, now a super charged 7D II makes sense for us wildlife photographers. But how many releases has Canon had in the past year or so that made sense.

I am hoping for a 7D II with the AF abilities of a1D Body and a supercharged sensor. Built to those supercharged specs $3 to $4 K would be the norm and I would buy one.

But, I wish I had won the lottery on Wednesday night to, and I think the odds are just as good. Maybe Canon will come through this time.

Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: bbasiaga on November 30, 2012, 10:24:07 AM
I'm thinking this could be $2499 body only.  Better AF, new sensor with lower noise, 10fps....doesn't sound cheap based on Canon's current pricing history.

-Brian

Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: crasher8 on November 30, 2012, 10:25:38 AM
Cue the APS-H posts
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: preppyak on November 30, 2012, 10:33:58 AM
The rumor that it is going to be ditched without a successor is curious to me, as it will leave Canon without a APS-C model essentially between $1000 and probably close to $2000 (other than continuing to offer the 7D MKI) and also remove a strong seller from Canon's lineup.
Makes sense to me. Canon lot a lot of sales that would have been 7D sales to the 60D, and since it has its own body style, AF system, etc, it's another line of manufacturing they have to keep open. To continue that legacy, they'd have to devote resources to either updating the 7D1 with a swivel screen, etc; or to putting the 7D AF and some features into the older 60D body. Both are more expensive than just continuing to manufacture the current 7D, drop the price a little, and still leave most of those 60D users happy. And if not, well, the T4i is basically what the 60D used to be and has the swivel screen.

I say this all as a 60D user who is happy with my purchase, but, I'd gladly trade the swivel screen for the weather-sealing, AFMA, and frame rate of the 7D at the same price as the 60D sold for
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: shadowsatnight on November 30, 2012, 10:51:50 AM
Noise performance similar to the 1D X, with more pixels.  That'd be impressive on a smaller sensor.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: DonHorne on November 30, 2012, 11:30:54 AM
My first thought is Canon is looking to plug the missing role the 1D series had with it's APS-H sensor giving sports & wildlife shooters that little extra reach. I wouldn't doubt that performance would be on par with the 1DX at lower ISO's since the 7DII will have newer technology just like when the 40D came out after the 5DC.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: ScottyP on November 30, 2012, 11:42:25 AM
--The camera will also get some technologies from the EOS-1D X, like the AF system and noise performance. [/quote][/i][/b]

Is that even remotely possible?  Are they saying the same ISO performance, or does this just suggest there will be some improvement in ISO performance?  That would not just be a new sports body, that would be a revolution in Canon's (or anyone else's) crop sensors that would ripple out through the whole line.

I hope it does mean at least 1 full stop improvement.  Two would be utterly amazing.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: Lee Jay on November 30, 2012, 11:58:13 AM
--The camera will also get some technologies from the EOS-1D X, like the AF system and noise performance.
Is that even remotely possible?

Sure, since it probably means the low read noise of the 1Dx compared to the other cameras Canon makes.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: Zlatko on November 30, 2012, 12:13:40 PM
A 7D2 addressing the noise at higher ISOs is going to fly off the shelves.  The AF is fantastic on the current 7D, so even a marginal improvement on a 7D2 would be all gravy.  Of course it will be more money...at least for the first 8 months, just like every other camera that has been introduced.  I'm not in the market for another APS-C right now, so whether it's $1,600 or $2,600 doesn't really matter to me.  I AM in the market to replace a 5D2 that has been dropped one too many times, so will continue to watch the 5D3 pricing (though concerned about the repeatedly reported softness in the 5D3 video also experienced in the 6D).  Lots of new cameras in the market and competition is good, let the competition do what it will to pricing.  I just don't understand the trolls that complain every time a new version of anything (camera, lens, tripod) comes out with a price increase...especially the ones that aren't in the market anyway. 
This is a good point about price.  It seems that the prices of all electronics are on a slope over time.  They are introduced at higher price.  As time goes by, the price comes down.  When they are due for replacement, the price is at its lowest.  It's the same whether we are talking about cameras or televisions or computers.

So when the replacement product is introduced, its price is being compared to the price of the product that is being discontinued — a price that has been on a downward slope for several years.  Canon gets bashed for the price of the 5DIII, which has many upgrades over the 5DII.  At the same time, Canon gets no love for lowering the price of the 5DII to the cheapest it's ever been.  When we talk about Canon's "astronomical prices", we should consider that the 5DII was $2,700 and is now $1,800 brand new, or something like $1,400 refurb.  This is just part of the normal product cycle.  If people are astonished by the $2,100 price of the 6D, they can wait and probably buy it for $1,800 or even $1,500 as time goes by. 

Those who need to pre-order the 7DII, or buy it in the first 9 months, will no doubt pay the highest price.  But there is something rational about this too.  For those who need it most and soonest, the product has a higher value.  They are willing to pay more than those who need it less or later.  This is variable pricing, a way that manufacturer's charge different prices to different customers.  As the price falls, it meets different budgets and triggers different customers to buy.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: surfing_geek on November 30, 2012, 12:22:08 PM
I'm thinking this could be $2499 body only.  Better AF, new sensor with lower noise, 10fps....doesn't sound cheap based on Canon's current pricing history.

-Brian


i wouldn't object to this if it was offered at a proportionate price over here.  Unfortunately, if something's usually $2499, it doesn't usually translate to £1600.  Try closer to £2000!


I'm really hoping this doesn't crank the price up too much, rather deciding to keep it's position as a prosumer APS-C, affordable to the average consumer like me!  I've been hankering after something like this for ages, I really don't want to be out-priced!
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: surfing_geek on November 30, 2012, 12:29:25 PM
however, after a little research, i see the 7d was £1699 when first released, so the mkii isn't going to be less than that!


guess i'll just have to do that bit more overtime to buy it then!
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: seamonster on November 30, 2012, 01:48:21 PM
The tidal wave of used 7D bodies hitting the market will obliterate Rebel and 60D sales. I can get a well worn 7D for a hair under $1000 and a barely used one for a little bit more. Hate to think what would happen when that price drops down to compete with new T4i bodies
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: coreyhkh on November 30, 2012, 02:06:26 PM
If this is true I am drooling I almost got a use mkiv but have decided to wait and it looks like the mk2 will at least be as good as the mk4
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: unfocused on November 30, 2012, 02:53:18 PM
The tidal wave of used 7D bodies hitting the market will obliterate Rebel and 60D sales. I can get a well worn 7D for a hair under $1000 and a barely used one for a little bit more. Hate to think what would happen when that price drops down to compete with new T4i bodies

I'm curious about this "tidal wave of used 7D bodies hitting the market." Where are they coming from? As of a few minutes ago, there were about 140 7Ds listed on eBay in categories other than new (used, refurbished, etc.)

That's a decent quantity, but it doesn't comes anywhere close to the new sales every day of the 60D, T4i, T3i, etc. Certainly not enough to skew the new market in any significant way. Most customers don't buy used and don't want to buy used, which is the reason you can buy a "well worn 7D for a hair under $1000." Plus, one shouldn't assume that the introduction of a 7DII will suddenly prompt all current 7D owners to sell their current bodies. I, for one, will be keeping mine.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: MARKOE PHOTOE on November 30, 2012, 02:58:49 PM
For sports I'm using a 1D4 and a 7D and if the new 7D2 is 10fps, 22mp and the same size body as the current 7D, then I'll say goodbye to both my 1D4 and the older 7D.  Both are great and I miss the reach of the APS-C when shooting with the 1D4. 
I acknowledge that I will miss the low light ISO performance that the 1D4 can provide but 99% of my sports activity is in natural light.
Bring it on Canon, let's see what you got to offer! ;D
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: docsmith on November 30, 2012, 04:32:24 PM
If I read the NI blurb correctly, the 7DII and 7D could both remain in productions for "some time" with the xxD series not being renewed.  If the price point of the 7D were to drop, this could make a lot of sense, but would also require something to significantly differentiate the 7DII and 7D. 

If the rumor is true, I am glad that they dropped the MP to 21 MP if the IQ wasn't good enough at 25 MP.  Honestly, the 18 MP I have with my current 7D is fine.  I mostly want better noise at low/high ISO and a slight increase in DR and IQ. 
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: ddashti on November 30, 2012, 04:56:07 PM
Improving the noise performance on this thing is much needed.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: distant.star on November 30, 2012, 05:41:15 PM
The tidal wave of used 7D bodies hitting the market will obliterate Rebel and 60D sales. I can get a well worn 7D for a hair under $1000 and a barely used one for a little bit more. Hate to think what would happen when that price drops down to compete with new T4i bodies

I'm curious about this "tidal wave of used 7D bodies hitting the market." Where are they coming from? As of a few minutes ago, there were about 140 7Ds listed on eBay in categories other than new (used, refurbished, etc.)

That's a decent quantity, but it doesn't comes anywhere close to the new sales every day of the 60D, T4i, T3i, etc. Certainly not enough to skew the new market in any significant way. Most customers don't buy used and don't want to buy used, which is the reason you can buy a "well worn 7D for a hair under $1000." Plus, one shouldn't assume that the introduction of a 7DII will suddenly prompt all current 7D owners to sell their current bodies. I, for one, will be keeping mine.

What can these people be thinking?

Did the introduction of the 5D3 send a tidal wave of 5D2 bodies to the used market? I don't watch it that closely, but I didn't feel the marketing earth move. What I saw were a lot of people who were rather stunned at the price of the 5D3 so they decided to keep using their serviceable and capable 5D2 equipment. Same thing is going to happen with the 7D2.

As I've been saying for a year or so the price of the 7D2 will be at or near $3K. That's going to stun most people into keeping their 7D.

And speaking of current prices relative to hair. A virtually new 7D body is now at the Canon refurb store for $1023. You can have a 60D body for $640. I can't imagine why someone would go into the jungle of the used 7D market with all its pitfalls when you can have a Canon-assured refurb for the same price -- or at least within a monkey hair of it!
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: MichaelHodges on November 30, 2012, 07:21:55 PM
Pleasant enough, but I doubt it would pull me from my 7D. A big improvement in low ISO dynamic range and noise would do it.



http://michaelhodgesfiction.com/ (http://michaelhodgesfiction.com/)
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: tiger82 on November 30, 2012, 11:01:57 PM
I've been thinking of the used 1D4 market at $3K-3.5K to upgrade my 7D.  I'd like to get the 10fps up from my 7D's 8fps, better AF, and better noise levels even at the cost dropping the crop factor to 1.3x and from 18mp to 16.7mp.  If I can get 10fps, keep the 1.6x for sports, better AF, and 24mp to boot in the $2K range, then I'm in!!!!!  No need to adapt to a new shooting style because of the change in crop factor.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: rbr on November 30, 2012, 11:02:18 PM
The only real way that Canon is going to plug the hole left by the APS-H sensors for the wildlife and bird photographers who have used the 1D series cameras exclusively for the past 10 years is with a 1D Mark5. Another 7D ain't going to cut it or get much interest, at least with Canon's current sensor technology.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: garyknrd on November 30, 2012, 11:13:48 PM
Since canon reads MY personal responses. And really puts allot of weight behind my opinion.
I think the 7D-11 is a go.
Contact me by e-mail, for the final spec. approval Canon.    LOL

Even though BS i love this site. :) Keep up the good work guys.

Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: SJTstudios on November 30, 2012, 11:32:56 PM
The only real way that Canon is going to plug the hole left by the APS-H sensors for the wildlife and bird photographers who have used the 1D series cameras exclusively for the past 10 years is with a 1D Mark5. Another 7D ain't going to cut it or get much interest, at least with Canon's current sensor technology.
I love the 1d cameras, but the aps-h, was just weird, don't get me wrong, I love it, but it confused me.
Anybody with that money for a 1d, should have the money for a super telephoto.
With the 1dx, pros, get the quality from ff they deserve, and the higher fps, that means the will really need to put $$$ in for lenses. But a cheaper 7dii, will have similar features as the 1dx, ok iOS, ok fps, ok focus, just not as good, but they put an aps-c in there for those who love to shoot, but don't make lots of money off of it, or don't want to carry a super telephoto, or, if they're want to go really super-tele. Canon wants to reward the pros with good stuff, but keep the ameutures a step below, with the aps-h, there wasn't a great difference, and pros didn't get what the payed for, since there was a similar 7d gong for 1/4 the price
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: bdunbar79 on December 01, 2012, 12:16:38 AM
The only real way that Canon is going to plug the hole left by the APS-H sensors for the wildlife and bird photographers who have used the 1D series cameras exclusively for the past 10 years is with a 1D Mark5. Another 7D ain't going to cut it or get much interest, at least with Canon's current sensor technology.
I love the 1d cameras, but the aps-h, was just weird, don't get me wrong, I love it, but it confused me.
Anybody with that money for a 1d, should have the money for a super telephoto.
With the 1dx, pros, get the quality from ff they deserve, and the higher fps, that means the will really need to put $$$ in for lenses. But a cheaper 7dii, will have similar features as the 1dx, ok iOS, ok fps, ok focus, just not as good, but they put an aps-c in there for those who love to shoot, but don't make lots of money off of it, or don't want to carry a super telephoto, or, if they're want to go really super-tele. Canon wants to reward the pros with good stuff, but keep the ameutures a step below, with the aps-h, there wasn't a great difference, and pros didn't get what the payed for, since there was a similar 7d gong for 1/4 the price

Do you mean the APS-H sensor in the 1D Mark IV?  If so, how was that a let down?  The IQ of the 1D Mark IV whips the crap out of the 7D IQ and yes there is a big difference.  The 7D is not similar.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: Stone on December 01, 2012, 02:27:52 AM
the 7D is a critical camera in the Canon lineup and I think these rumors are probably in line with what Canon has in mind.  The 7D has been the king of APS-C crop bodies for over 3 years now and I'm sure Canon is quite comfortable being in that position.

Canon doesn't have to do much in the way of upgrades here to have another hit.  It will most likely continue to have a dual digic configuration so 10fps is easily achievable.  I suspect 10fps is achievable in the current 7D but Canon had to keep the fastest burst rate for the flagship 1DIV, no such hurdle there now.  Canon seems to be bringing it's A game in af performance so I have no doubt the 7D will be stellar in that regard.  61af points would literally cover the entire screen so I'm thinking 45 af points.  Throw in a few extras like f8 af, even better weather seals and possibly higher voltage batteries to really drive the big lenses and the king will easily keep his crown.

As far as the sensor, I'm fine with the 18MP I have today but an increase in resolution is pretty much inevitable.  If Canon really does have new sensor tech, the 7DII will most certainly get it, I'm sure Canon is just as tired of hearing the word EXMOR as many of us are.

The Nikon D400 or whatever it will be called will most certainly be sporting the latest jesus sensor from Sony.  Honestly, I'm expecting greatly improved noise handling, better high ISO performance and a modest increase in DR but if I were a betting man, Sony will remain the DR king, I'd love to be wrong on that.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: nicku on December 01, 2012, 05:54:25 AM
If canon puts a 21-22 MP APS-H sensor with 8-10 fps on the new 7D2 .. i will buy one regardless of the price...

.... but i know this is near impossible.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: jaballi on December 01, 2012, 07:26:04 AM
with two digic 5+ processors, will it have  the same video capabilities as the 1dx (which compresses from an apsc crop)?
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: candyman on December 01, 2012, 08:16:13 AM
with two digic 5+ processors, will it have  the same video capabilities as the 1dx (which compresses from an apsc crop)?


Will it get two digic 5+ ? I am not sure. It may get two digic 5 or....will there be a digic 6?
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: dtaylor on December 01, 2012, 08:34:10 AM
Do you mean the APS-H sensor in the 1D Mark IV?  If so, how was that a let down?  The IQ of the 1D Mark IV whips the crap out of the 7D IQ and yes there is a big difference.  The 7D is not similar.

The difference is so big that images are impossible to tell apart through about ISO 800, and even at ISO 3200 the difference is less than a stop. Have someone explain to you what "whip the crap out of" and "big difference" mean, because that ain't it.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: dtaylor on December 01, 2012, 08:37:49 AM
If canon puts a 21-22 MP APS-H sensor with 8-10 fps on the new 7D2 .. i will buy one regardless of the price...

Ah yes, APS-H....

* Not enough extra reach to matter for telephoto.
* Not enough extra surface area to matter for high ISO.
* Just enough crop to kill FF UWA lenses, but not enough crop to use APS-C UWA lenses.

APS-H was an odd digital format and a necessary, but less than ideal and therefore temporary, compromise on Canon's part. It should rest in peace.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: nicku on December 01, 2012, 08:51:12 AM
If canon puts a 21-22 MP APS-H sensor with 8-10 fps on the new 7D2 .. i will buy one regardless of the price...

Ah yes, APS-H....

* Not enough extra reach to matter for telephoto.
* Not enough extra surface area to matter for high ISO.
* Just enough crop to kill FF UWA lenses, but not enough crop to use APS-C UWA lenses.

APS-H was an odd digital format and a necessary, but less than ideal and therefore temporary, compromise on Canon's part. It should rest in peace.

is true what you say....BUT..........

I believe the APS-H sensor is the perfect combination between extra reach and low noise at high ISO. i still somehow believe is not dead yet. And not because the high performance of the sensor , because the marketing reasons.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: PerfectSavage on December 01, 2012, 10:19:06 AM
If canon puts a 21-22 MP APS-H sensor with 8-10 fps on the new 7D2 .. i will buy one regardless of the price...

.... but i know this is near impossible.

APS-H is dead, deader than dead...get over it folks.  The hope/myth of a re-emergence of APS-H in a 7DII, 4D, 1D Mark V is hope-less.  It doesn't mean anything negative about the APS-H or the 1D Mark IV, it simply means the market has moved....and instead of APS-H, there are now "entry-level" (though I hate that phrase applied to FF) full-frame cameras now like the 6D and Nikon entries.  APS-H is six feet under.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: bdunbar79 on December 01, 2012, 10:28:26 AM
Do you mean the APS-H sensor in the 1D Mark IV?  If so, how was that a let down?  The IQ of the 1D Mark IV whips the crap out of the 7D IQ and yes there is a big difference.  The 7D is not similar.

The difference is so big that images are impossible to tell apart through about ISO 800, and even at ISO 3200 the difference is less than a stop. Have someone explain to you what "whip the crap out of" and "big difference" mean, because that ain't it.

Nope.  I owned both and having shot a lot of sports, you can actually CROP farther with the 1.3x APS-H sensor than the 1.6x APS-C sensor.  In other words, the 1D4 ended up with more effective reach if you needed to crop.  Equal photos taken with no cropping, I agree, up to 800 not much difference.  But when you need to crop and maintain quality, the 1D4 wins, even despite having less reach.  Cropping is not uncommon at all with serious sports shooters.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: rbr on December 01, 2012, 10:42:00 AM
I believe the APS-H sensor is the perfect combination between extra reach and low noise at high ISO.

I agree. As for whether Canon will ever produce a professional model of the quality of the 1D4 and its predecessors again with that sensor, I am doubtful. Meanwhile I love my 2 1D4's and have no plans on replacing them any time soon.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: distant.star on December 01, 2012, 10:49:27 AM
If canon puts a 21-22 MP APS-H sensor with 8-10 fps on the new 7D2 .. i will buy one regardless of the price...

You might want to be careful with that "regardless of the price" talk.

I'd bet Canon will do you a one-off for $50 million or so. Maybe less.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: Buyi on December 01, 2012, 11:48:45 AM
they will not Me_Me_Me the 5d3 so res is below 22, noise is terrible as usually with crop. is this camera for people that dont have a clue
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: x-vision on December 01, 2012, 12:30:17 PM
they will not Me_Me_Me the 5d3 so res is below 22, noise is terrible as usually with crop.

Agree about the resolution. I believe the 7DII will have 20mp.

Not sure about the noise, though.
As previous rumors suggested, the 7DII might indeed use newer sensor tech.
If that's the case, I'm expecting ISO performance on par with the 1DIV.

In general, all those recent 7DII rumors suggest a 1DIV ... at a 7D price.
Hmm, don't know about that.

Since wishlists and speculations are fun, here is what I think we can expect from the 7DII:


Overall, the 7DII will be a warmed-over 7D but with a better sensor and other minor improvements.
The 7DII will be like the 1DIV ... but only in image quality.

Other than that, it will remain a 7D: an excellent offering but not a 1D series.

There, you heard it here first  8).
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: candyman on December 01, 2012, 01:23:33 PM
they will not Me_Me_Me the 5d3 so res is below 22, noise is terrible as usually with crop.

Agree about the resolution. I believe the 7DII will have 20mp.

Not sure about the noise, though.
As previous rumors suggested, the 7DII might indeed use newer sensor tech.
If that's the case, I'm expecting ISO performance on par with the 1DIV.

In general, all those recent 7DII rumors suggest a 1DIV ... at a 7D price.
Hmm, don't know about that.

Since wishlists and speculations are fun, here is what I think we can expect from the 7DII:

  • Sensor: a better 20mp sensor with ISO on par with the 1DIV.
    Positive surprise: ISO is even better.
  • Frame rate: remains the same at 8fps.
    Positive surprise: maybe 8.5fps or 9fps.
  • AF system: same as on the 7D but a tad snappier.
    Positive surprise: more AF points (maybe 27 or 33; certainly not 61).
Overall, the 7DII will be a warmed-over 7D but with a better sensor and other minor improvements.
The 7DII will be like the 1DIV ... but only in image quality.

Other than that, it will remain a 7D: an excellent offering but not a 1D series.

There, you heard it here first  8) .


One thing missing....what is your expected/suggested price for the 7D MKII?
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: x-vision on December 01, 2012, 01:37:49 PM
One thing missing....what is your expected/suggested price for the 7D MKII?

$1699, same as the 7D at introduction.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: candyman on December 01, 2012, 01:49:25 PM
One thing missing....what is your expected/suggested price for the 7D MKII?

$1699, same as the 7D at introduction.


 ;D  Good to see optimists here  :D
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: Krob78 on December 01, 2012, 01:57:00 PM
The tidal wave of used 7D bodies hitting the market will obliterate Rebel and 60D sales. I can get a well worn 7D for a hair under $1000 and a barely used one for a little bit more. Hate to think what would happen when that price drops down to compete with new T4i bodies

I'm curious about this "tidal wave of used 7D bodies hitting the market." Where are they coming from? As of a few minutes ago, there were about 140 7Ds listed on eBay in categories other than new (used, refurbished, etc.)

That's a decent quantity, but it doesn't comes anywhere close to the new sales every day of the 60D, T4i, T3i, etc. Certainly not enough to skew the new market in any significant way. Most customers don't buy used and don't want to buy used, which is the reason you can buy a "well worn 7D for a hair under $1000." Plus, one shouldn't assume that the introduction of a 7DII will suddenly prompt all current 7D owners to sell their current bodies. I, for one, will be keeping mine.

What can these people be thinking?

Did the introduction of the 5D3 send a tidal wave of 5D2 bodies to the used market? I don't watch it that closely, but I didn't feel the marketing earth move. What I saw were a lot of people who were rather stunned at the price of the 5D3 so they decided to keep using their serviceable and capable 5D2 equipment. Same thing is going to happen with the 7D2.

As I've been saying for a year or so the price of the 7D2 will be at or near $3K. That's going to stun most people into keeping their 7D.

And speaking of current prices relative to hair. A virtually new 7D body is now at the Canon refurb store for $1023. You can have a 60D body for $640. I can't imagine why someone would go into the jungle of the used 7D market with all its pitfalls when you can have a Canon-assured refurb for the same price -- or at least within a monkey hair of it!
I'd have to agree, tidal waves are usually more than ankle deep...  ;)
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: Stone on December 01, 2012, 03:03:35 PM
One thing missing....what is your expected/suggested price for the 7D MKII?

$1699, same as the 7D at introduction.

lmao!!!

this is Canon we're talking about here. :D
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: Krob78 on December 01, 2012, 03:06:40 PM
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<p><strong>Where will the EOS 7D fit?<br />

</strong>Some mentions about who the EOS 7D Mark II is going to be marketed too. It’s suggested the camera will be “firmly” aimed at the nature and sports market. The 10fps feature we and others have been told about is a big part of the plan. The camera will also get some technologies from the EOS-1D X, like the AF system and noise performance. While it may not have 61 focus points, the performance could be on par.</p>
<p>A different megapixel count of 21mp has also been mentioned. There’s a good chance various configurations of test cameras exist.</p>
<p><strong>Source: [<a href=\"http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_7dmk2.html\" target=\"_blank\">NL</a>]</strong></p>
<p><strong><span style=\"color: #ff0000;\">c</span>r</strong></p>

I think one will fit snugly in my gear bag... Yes, should definitely fit nicely!  ;D
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: Don Haines on December 01, 2012, 05:11:17 PM
I find the articulating screen on the 60D very usefull and at one point I would have argued that any sucessor to the 7D should have one. My 60D has seen rugged use and no problems with the articulated screen and once you get used to it it is hard to imagine a camera without it.....

That said, times change and technology marches on. Wifi makes a smart phone into a WAY better articulated screen.... Look at the GoPro cameras.... you can do anything on your phone that you can do on the camera. How long will it be before smart phones or tablets become the ultimate remote control for high end DSLR's... the technology is already in use on lower end cameras.... it is tested and it works.

Now I would like to see a 7DII with Wifi.. this is tethered shooting without the tether... Set the camera up near a nest, and from a reasonable distance you can take those baby bird pictures.... put the camera on a telescope and not have to lie in the snow to see what's happening... and studio shooting with quick access to just about every setting....

If I can do this on a $400 camera, which also shoots 4K video, (take that 1D-C), it can be done on a $2000+ camera.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: PerfectSavage on December 01, 2012, 09:13:02 PM
I find the articulating screen on the 60D very usefull and at one point I would have argued that any sucessor to the 7D should have one. My 60D has seen rugged use and no problems with the articulated screen and once you get used to it it is hard to imagine a camera without it.....

That said, times change and technology marches on. Wifi makes a smart phone into a WAY better articulated screen.... Look at the GoPro cameras.... you can do anything on your phone that you can do on the camera. How long will it be before smart phones or tablets become the ultimate remote control for high end DSLR's... the technology is already in use on lower end cameras.... it is tested and it works.

Now I would like to see a 7DII with Wifi.. this is tethered shooting without the tether... Set the camera up near a nest, and from a reasonable distance you can take those baby bird pictures.... put the camera on a telescope and not have to lie in the snow to see what's happening... and studio shooting with quick access to just about every setting....

If I can do this on a $400 camera, which also shoots 4K video, (take that 1D-C), it can be done on a $2000+ camera.

The 60D isn't sealed though like the magnesium alloy xD bodies.  That is the biggest hurdle to overcome with an articulating screen in any sealed body...i.e. how do you maintain a water/pressure resistant housing with an articulating screen that is going to have a hinge(s) in any design scenario.  I think most pros would say, "yeah, kinda cool in certain situations...but it would get in the way" more...and for video, pros use an external monitor anyway so no value in an articulating screen.

P.S.  what do you shoot "4K" on your GoPro?
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: Don Haines on December 01, 2012, 10:19:35 PM
I find the articulating screen on the 60D very usefull and at one point I would have argued that any sucessor to the 7D should have one. My 60D has seen rugged use and no problems with the articulated screen and once you get used to it it is hard to imagine a camera without it.....

That said, times change and technology marches on. Wifi makes a smart phone into a WAY better articulated screen.... Look at the GoPro cameras.... you can do anything on your phone that you can do on the camera. How long will it be before smart phones or tablets become the ultimate remote control for high end DSLR's... the technology is already in use on lower end cameras.... it is tested and it works.

Now I would like to see a 7DII with Wifi.. this is tethered shooting without the tether... Set the camera up near a nest, and from a reasonable distance you can take those baby bird pictures.... put the camera on a telescope and not have to lie in the snow to see what's happening... and studio shooting with quick access to just about every setting....

If I can do this on a $400 camera, which also shoots 4K video, (take that 1D-C), it can be done on a $2000+ camera.

The 60D isn't sealed though like the magnesium alloy xD bodies.  That is the biggest hurdle to overcome with an articulating screen in any sealed body...i.e. how do you maintain a water/pressure resistant housing with an articulating screen that is going to have a hinge(s) in any design scenario.  I think most pros would say, "yeah, kinda cool in certain situations...but it would get in the way" more...and for video, pros use an external monitor anyway so no value in an articulating screen.

P.S.  what do you shoot "4K" on your GoPro?
sealing and robustness was always a problem.... one had to take extra care , but it was still a usefull function for some of us... Wifi makes it obsolete... If you don't want it, your already there. If you do, bring along a tablet and there's your remote control and your external monitor.

Don't have a GoPro yet..... but ask again on Tuesday  :) I intend to use it for canoeing and kite photography... remote shutter and monitor on an iPad seems a lot easier than trained monkeys on the kite.... and the animal rights people probably would not approve either.... And for some reason my sweetie will not let me use her 5DII and L glass in a kite  >:(

I've used a 7D enough to know that I should have bought it instead of the 60D, it really is a lot nicer camera, but the 60D has two things going for it for astronomy that the 7D can't match.... The articulating screen is ABSOLUTLY FANTASTIC!!!!!!! when your telescope is pointing straight up, and it has a cropped 640x400 video mode that when coupled with image stacking gets you far better images than any DSLR is capable with as a single shot.... this is probably why Canon made the 60Da as thier astronomy camera. Wifi cancels out the first point, but I hope Canon retains/transfers over that cropped video mode.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: coreyhkh on December 01, 2012, 11:38:24 PM
Do you guys really think a 7d mk2 is going to come out???
I don't want to give my hopes up but I would prefer if Canon bumped the price if it meant it would be a better camera.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: Stone on December 02, 2012, 04:34:46 AM
Do you guys really think a 7d mk2 is going to come out???
I don't want to give my hopes up but I would prefer if Canon bumped the price if it meant it would be a better camera.

well none of us know for certain, hence the name "canon rumors FORUM" :D

but considering the success enjoyed by the current 7D, it would be pretty foolhardy of Canon not to introduce an updated version to remain competitive.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: pwp on December 02, 2012, 06:20:41 AM
One thing missing....what is your expected/suggested price for the 7D MKII?
$1699, same as the 7D at introduction.
Look at recent Canon $$history...$1699 sounds optimistic.
But wait; what's wrong with being an optimist?
Optimists are generally happier healthier people.
$1699? I'll have two please...

-PW
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: CreationHeart on December 02, 2012, 08:12:04 AM
Having got the 5d3 and 1dx, i would really be interested in a 7D2 for wildlife too!
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: xps on December 02, 2012, 02:16:46 PM
Yesterday I was told, the 7d MK2, I am interrested in, will be @ about 2700€  (Canon product manager). This would be about 3500$.
Could this be true????? That is more than the 5D3 costs!!!!

Expect: fast shooting, fast AF. For all that need to shott fast things. No word about IQ.


EDIT: Need to correct: My wife told me, that the CM said that there will be an standard zoom added as an kit. Sorry, but I did not ask which one, because I was a little bit upset about the price and did not notice that he told that this would be a kit.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: x-vision on December 02, 2012, 03:19:27 PM
Hard to believe that the 7DII will be more expensive than the 6D.

As per Canon's nomenclature, the 6D is a more premium model than the 7D.
So, unless Canon's marketing guys are out of wack, the 7DII won't be more expensive.

As I said in a previous post, I'm expecting that the 7DII price will remain the same as the 7D at introduction ($1699).
This is based on the expectation that the 7DII will be a warmed-over 7D but with a better sensor.

I could be wrong, of course, and the 7DII might get a price as high as the 6D.
Certainly not higher (again, unless Canon's marketing department has gone out of control).
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: xps on December 02, 2012, 03:54:51 PM
Hard to believe that the 7DII will be more expensive than the 6D.

As per Canon's nomenclature, the 6D is a more premium model than the 7D.
So, unless Canon's marketing guys are out of wack, the 7DII won't be more expensive.

As I said in a previous post, I'm expecting that the 7DII price will remain the same as the 7D at introduction ($1699).
This is based on the expectation that the 7DII will be a warmed-over 7D but with a better sensor.

I could be wrong, of course, and the 7DII might get a price as high as the 6D.
Certainly not higher (again, unless Canon's marketing department has gone out of control).

I was told that there will be an superior AF system inside. Like the porfessional cameras use. And with an very fast picture tranfer rate. And that has it´s price.

The Canon product expert was very self confident that Canon will stay the best Camaera producer in the world. He said, that millions of sold cameras show that they meet the needs of the customers. And if I am dissatisfied, I can make a switch to another firm. That would no matter....
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: Stone on December 02, 2012, 04:32:23 PM
Hard to believe that the 7DII will be more expensive than the 6D.

As per Canon's nomenclature, the 6D is a more premium model than the 7D.
So, unless Canon's marketing guys are out of wack, the 7DII won't be more expensive.

As I said in a previous post, I'm expecting that the 7DII price will remain the same as the 7D at introduction ($1699).
This is based on the expectation that the 7DII will be a warmed-over 7D but with a better sensor.

I could be wrong, of course, and the 7DII might get a price as high as the 6D.
Certainly not higher (again, unless Canon's marketing department has gone out of control).

I was told that there will be an superior AF system inside. Like the porfessional cameras use. And with an very fast picture tranfer rate. And that has it´s price.

The Canon product expert was very self confident that Canon will stay the best Camaera producer in the world. He said, that millions of sold cameras show that they meet the needs of the customers. And if I am dissatisfied, I can make a switch to another firm. That would no matter....

It would make sense that if Canon included a kit lens it would be the 15-85.  Subtract around $700 for that and you have a $2800 7D which would not surprise me in the least considering the MSRP on the 5DIII when it was released.

Naming convention aside, the 6D would NOT be a higher end camera than a 7DII.  The 6D is essentially a FF rebel and other than sensor size, even the existing 7D has a spec sheet that's light years ahead, not even in the same universe as far as features go.  The 7DII would obviously be the higher end camera, not sure how someone could think otherwise.

The only part of the story that doesn't sound right is a Canon rep telling someone that Canon will remain #1 and unsatisfied customers can go elsewhere.  A statement like that could have a huge impact on a Company's image if it got out and caught traction.  Any representative worth his or her paycheck would NEVER make such a statement and expect to remain employed, even if they were talking amongst "friendly" company.  Just doesn't make sense.

I need something, anything related to the new sensor!!!!  Somebody PLEASE leak something. :D
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: Bosman on December 02, 2012, 05:01:14 PM
If canon puts a 21-22 MP APS-H sensor with 8-10 fps on the new 7D2 .. i will buy one regardless of the price...

.... but i know this is near impossible.

APS-H is dead, deader than dead...get over it folks.  The hope/myth of a re-emergence of APS-H in a 7DII, 4D, 1D Mark V is hope-less.  It doesn't mean anything negative about the APS-H or the 1D Mark IV, it simply means the market has moved....and instead of APS-H, there are now "entry-level" (though I hate that phrase applied to FF) full-frame cameras now like the 6D and Nikon entries.  APS-H is six feet under.
You need to be careful about knowing the mind of Canon unless you have inside info your bold claim to know without doubt APS-H is dead debunks your credibility. How do you know the market has moved? While you may end up being right, you don't have the right to say something you don't know about as fact.

If i could afford a 1dx I'd get one without thinking too much but I can't. My 1dm3 when it needs a new shutter will get replaced with another camera. If a 7dII comes out with great specs, it may be the camera i get without waiting and the 1dm3 becomes a backup. If it has a flip screen i'll pass. I have been looking at 1dm4's but they are still too high in price. A good companion for my 5dm3 in a crop body will be ideal for using my 24LII to its potential. The 1dm3 with the 24LII isn't ideal with focus accuracy for some reason. The 5dm3 works well with it. Since the new focus systems of the 5dm3 and 1dx have improved a lot of peoples glass shooting at large apertures if the 7dII didn't do the same I wouldn't want it. I am addicted to the 5dm3 focus and don't want to go back, the most i would give it up for would be the 1dm4. I am shooting a lot more available light now so the 7dm2 must shoot clean iso 6400 iso for me to be happy. I think like others have mentioned that the next 7d will be the 1dm4 but smaller in a similar way the 6d doesn't Me_Me_Me the old 5dm2 but is lighter and cheaper even though its old tech. 1D cameras will always be much more camera even if specs match up.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: crasher8 on December 02, 2012, 06:04:39 PM
It's not difficult for me to grasp that the 7D Mk2 would be a higher level body and thus more expensive than the 6D.

AF ala 5D3 and 1DX
Weather Sealed-Mag body
Highest FPS except for 1D series
Dual Cards
Dual Processors
More buttons on rear for single operations (as opposed to a cumbersome drill down menu system from less buttons)


If Canon gets the Noise issue taken care of above 1600 ISO then this could be a dream body for wildlife and sports shooters.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: xps on December 02, 2012, 06:14:43 PM
Hard to believe that the 7DII will be more expensive than the 6D.

As per Canon's nomenclature, the 6D is a more premium model than the 7D.
So, unless Canon's marketing guys are out of wack, the 7DII won't be more expensive.

As I said in a previous post, I'm expecting that the 7DII price will remain the same as the 7D at introduction ($1699).
This is based on the expectation that the 7DII will be a warmed-over 7D but with a better sensor.

I could be wrong, of course, and the 7DII might get a price as high as the 6D.
Certainly not higher (again, unless Canon's marketing department has gone out of control).

I was told that there will be an superior AF system inside. Like the porfessional cameras use. And with an very fast picture tranfer rate. And that has it´s price.

The Canon product expert was very self confident that Canon will stay the best Camaera producer in the world. He said, that millions of sold cameras show that they meet the needs of the customers. And if I am dissatisfied, I can make a switch to another firm. That would no matter....

It would make sense that if Canon included a kit lens it would be the 15-85.  Subtract around $700 for that and you have a $2800 7D which would not surprise me in the least considering the MSRP on the 5DIII when it was released.

Naming convention aside, the 6D would NOT be a higher end camera than a 7DII.  The 6D is essentially a FF rebel and other than sensor size, even the existing 7D has a spec sheet that's light years ahead, not even in the same universe as far as features go.  The 7DII would obviously be the higher end camera, not sure how someone could think otherwise.

The only part of the story that doesn't sound right is a Canon rep telling someone that Canon will remain #1 and unsatisfied customers can go elsewhere.  A statement like that could have a huge impact on a Company's image if it got out and caught traction.  Any representative worth his or her paycheck would NEVER make such a statement and expect to remain employed, even if they were talking amongst "friendly" company.  Just doesn't make sense.

I need something, anything related to the new sensor!!!!  Somebody PLEASE leak something. :D

Sir, what I wrote is true. The sales representant was annoyed by many people that have been on the Nikon estate and saw the D600 and D800. Many asked, why their products are so expensive, have so much lesser MP,.... ( Nikon had about 10 Cameras to show to the visitors and they  allowed to use them and showed their pictures on an big screen. Canon only 1 6D and 2 5D3 and 2 650D.)
The exhibition was for everyone, not only photoenthusiasts. So many people were looking on how many MP one product has,...
And I told him, that - when I took the shots -  the AF was equal to the AF of the 5D3. And I claimed that there is much difference in the quality of their products, as I saw by myself in the last years.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: crasher8 on December 02, 2012, 06:19:11 PM
Well I for one want to be on the Canon estate. And ride their horses.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: pwp on December 02, 2012, 08:11:37 PM
Yesterday I was told, the 7d MK2, I am interested in, will be @ about 2700€  (Canon product manager). This would be about 3500$.
Could this be true????? That is more than the 5D3 costs!!!!
Expect: fast shooting, fast AF. For all that need to shot fast things. No word about IQ.
EDIT: Need to correct: My wife told me, that the CM said that there will be an standard zoom added as an kit. Sorry, but I did not ask which one, because I was a little bit upset about the price and did not notice that he told that this would be a kit.

If there is an expected price hike, then the optimist in me says this is good news. Why? The 7DII may well shift up a whole level and become the 1D4 replacement in terms of FPS, AF performance, iso performance, buffer depth etc.

While I wouldn't hold my breath for 1-Series level ergonomics, durability and weather sealing, I would expect a camera that will go a long way towards satisfying the day to day high performance needs of photographers who currently depend on 1D4 APS-H bodies. A high performance APS-C 7DII has the potential to save me the cost of a 1DX and a 400 f/2.8isII. Why? Because on APS-C vs FF my 300 f/2.8is will deliver the reach I need for my current clients needs, currently met with 1D4 bodies.

Still, no matter how strong the 7DII feature set ends up revealing itself as, one can't deny that the 1DX and 400 f/2.8isII combo will remain the gold standard for sports/action work.

-PW
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: AprilForever on December 02, 2012, 10:36:41 PM
Yesterday I was told, the 7d MK2, I am interested in, will be @ about 2700€  (Canon product manager). This would be about 3500$.
Could this be true????? That is more than the 5D3 costs!!!!
Expect: fast shooting, fast AF. For all that need to shot fast things. No word about IQ.
EDIT: Need to correct: My wife told me, that the CM said that there will be an standard zoom added as an kit. Sorry, but I did not ask which one, because I was a little bit upset about the price and did not notice that he told that this would be a kit.

If there is an expected price hike, then the optimist in me says this is good news. Why? The 7DII may well shift up a whole level and become the 1D4 replacement in terms of FPS, AF performance, iso performance, buffer depth etc.

While I wouldn't hold my breath for 1-Series level ergonomics, durability and weather sealing, I would expect a camera that will go a long way towards satisfying the day to day high performance needs of photographers who currently depend on 1D4 APS-H bodies. A high performance APS-C 7DII has the potential to save me the cost of a 1DX and a 400 f/2.8isII. Why? Because on APS-C vs FF my 300 f/2.8is will deliver the reach I need for my current clients needs, currently met with 1D4 bodies.

Still, no matter how strong the 7DII feature set ends up revealing itself as, one can't deny that the 1DX and 400 f/2.8isII combo will remain the gold standard for sports/action work.

-PW

I actually have been thinking the same, that the 7D mk II would likely fill the hole left by the 1D MK IV. Those things sold really well (considering all around...)... I bet we will pay more for it, but get more for it. Expect the 70D to bounce up a bit.

A key example of this: The T4i. A seriously roided out rebel. Expect big things next year!
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: moreorless on December 03, 2012, 01:32:43 AM
I actually have been thinking the same, that the 7D mk II would likely fill the hole left by the 1D MK IV. Those things sold really well (considering all around...)... I bet we will pay more for it, but get more for it. Expect the 70D to bounce up a bit.

A key example of this: The T4i. A seriously roided out rebel. Expect big things next year!

Seems to make the most sense to me, the 7D2 aiming at a higher end market and the 70D aiming for the 7D's current market.

It would make the most of the ASPC situation for Canon aswell, as a general purpose body a 1.6 rather than 1.5 crop is always going to make it difficult for them to compete on IQ but for an action/wildlife/sports specific body the extra range is a clear advanatge.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: niccon on December 03, 2012, 04:01:16 AM

I was told that there will be an superior AF system inside. Like the porfessional cameras use. And with an very fast picture tranfer rate. And that has it´s price.

The Canon product expert was very self confident that Canon will stay the best Camaera producer in the world. He said, that millions of sold cameras show that they meet the needs of the customers. And if I am dissatisfied, I can make a switch to another firm. That would no matter....

well said, canon product expert? ::)  i remembered many years back nikon told their users, nikon gave enough pixel for their work & hobby so dont ask for more despite there was a wide spread discontent among the users on mp & poorer iso their ccd gave compares to canon cmos. fast forward to now, nikon has the highest mp dslr, switch to cmos & the old management which said they gave enough, gave way to new.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: niccon on December 03, 2012, 04:12:35 AM

If there is an expected price hike, then the optimist in me says this is good news. Why? The 7DII may well shift up a whole level and become the 1D4 replacement in terms of FPS, AF performance, iso performance, buffer depth etc.

While I wouldn't hold my breath for 1-Series level ergonomics, durability and weather sealing, I would expect a camera that will go a long way towards satisfying the day to day high performance needs of photographers who currently depend on 1D4 APS-H bodies. A high performance APS-C 7DII has the potential to save me the cost of a 1DX and a 400 f/2.8isII. Why? Because on APS-C vs FF my 300 f/2.8is will deliver the reach I need for my current clients needs, currently met with 1D4 bodies.

Still, no matter how strong the 7DII feature set ends up revealing itself as, one can't deny that the 1DX and 400 f/2.8isII combo will remain the gold standard for sports/action work.

-PW

while i certainly welcome 7d2 with or exceeding 1d4 in feature & performance, the pricing must be competitive, we must not allow them to chop us like carrot effortlessly ;D high iso remains an issue for crop sensor if it can exceed d7000 performance that will draw alot of interest
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: xps on December 03, 2012, 05:50:50 AM
@ niccon:

This is the problem, not only @ photography.
Maybe Apple comes in this situation too.
It is clear, that if you would produce a Camera with 60MP and an super Iso-performance @ 2000$, the next day  some people regret 100MP @ 1000$ ...

But it is dissastisfying if you see some competitive producs that are superior, but Canon produc specialists say that everything they produce is the greatest of all....
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: Sad_Dave on December 03, 2012, 12:00:53 PM
I don't understand all of this argueing and guessing what one needs on the camera.
A flip screen is fine in some situations, so why shoudn't we have it? Other cameras have it.
A build in flash shure, why not? Nikon has it too.
Wifi sounds nice just like GPS so give it to us.
Low noise at high iso is not a question for nikon, canon had allways some problems wit that.
If someone is using it or not is just an idivuduel thing.
Why should a Canon camera have not all the same features like an nikon or sony. To be the best camera on the market it has to have even more than that. Let everyone decied what buildin features they want to use but to make a choise you got to have in the first place.
The price should be as low posible so a lot of people can get one and canon will make some profit there.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: dlleno on December 03, 2012, 12:36:20 PM
I don't understand all of this argueing and guessing what one needs on the camera.
A flip screen is fine in some situations, so why shoudn't we have it? Other cameras have it.
A build in flash shure, why not? Nikon has it too.
Wifi sounds nice just like GPS so give it to us.
Low noise at high iso is not a question for nikon, canon had allways some problems wit that.
If someone is using it or not is just an idivuduel thing.
Why should a Canon camera have not all the same features like an nikon or sony. To be the best camera on the market it has to have even more than that. Let everyone decied what buildin features they want to use but to make a choise you got to have in the first place.
The price should be as low posible so a lot of people can get one and canon will make some profit there.

This is a rumor site.  There is signal and there is noise;  there is arguing and there is guessing -- thats what we do here. With the exception of the occasional troll,  the vigorous discussion is fueled  in part by speculation regarding how the camera is positioned, i.e. what feature set will be important to the targeted audience and what tradeoffs will be made and how that will affect the end user.  Most here understand the specialization that has to happen and that it not just as simple as "give us everything".   

For example, flip screens and pop-up flash are pretty individual things with their own tradeoffs like weather sealing, ergonomics and ultimate durability in the field.  Being a rumors forum, folks here naturally discuss what they anticipate in the camera, esp what would please or disapoint. 
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: Bosman on December 03, 2012, 01:02:50 PM
No flip screen = no un wanted repairs of a flip screen that sticks out.
No flip screen = better weather proofing
cheap cameras and actual video cameras are what flip screens go on. If a flip screen is important you prob should be looking at video cameras.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: TWI by Dustin Abbott on December 03, 2012, 03:28:34 PM
No flip screen = no un wanted repairs of a flip screen that sticks out.
No flip screen = better weather proofing
cheap cameras and actual video cameras are what flip screens go on. If a flip screen is important you prob should be looking at video cameras.

With all due respect, that is in your opinion.  I do very little video work overall, but the one thing I wish my 5D MKII had above just about any feature but an improved AF system would be the articulating screen.  I had my 60D first, and there was quite an adjustment period when I first got my 5DMKII.  I missed the screen terribly in the field for landscape work, and it was only the great image quality of the 5D that kept me hooked.  I was VERY disappointed when the 5DMKIII was introduced without the articulating screen.  It is an invaluable tool in the field.

According to Bryan Carnethan at "The Digital Picture": "As shown in the images above, the Canon EOS 60D has received the same level of weather sealing as the EOS 50D. This amount is slightly less than the 7D's level of sealing."

Clearly the articulating screen did nothing to keep the camera from getting the same degree of weathersealing that it's predecessor had, which is intentionally somewhat less than the 7D for marketing reasons. 

I don't know on what evidence you are drawing your conclusions, but I have not heard of a tremendous amount of "flip-screen" related repairs.  If you don't want to flip it out, then don't, but it is nice to have that option.  It is also great to have that screen reversed for travel so that the LCD is not exposed.

I'll end with this anecdote.  I had to replace the LCD window on my 5DMKII this autumn because....wait for it...an acorn fell out of a tree while I was hiking in the woods with the camera in a chest holster, back (and LCD) faced up.  The acorn hit the window and starred it in every direction.  I ordered the parts and did the replacement myself, but if I had been carrying my 60D, I would have had that screen reversed, and, at worse, I would gotten a mark on paint.  My wallet was wishing the 5D had an articulating screen for another reason that day!
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: Danielle on December 03, 2012, 08:10:11 PM
Any camera which has a flip out screen will not be brought by me and many others.

I know exactly what would happen... Breakage. It's not that I not careful with my equipment but it would be one catastrophic weak point.

Oh and just to be a sceptic, it's also very possible that canon will under cook the 7d mark ii and nikon's replacement for the d300s will walk all over it. I hope not, I really hope not. But no word on the direct competition either. A long long time waiting either way.

A mini 1d mark 4? The 7d is that... More or less.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: Don Haines on December 03, 2012, 10:46:31 PM
cheap cameras and actual video cameras are what flip screens go on. If a flip screen is important you prob should be looking at video cameras.

Just because something is your opinion does not make it reality to all....

Have you ever heard of astrophotography? You attach the camera to the telescope and take pictures of the stars.... The best time of the year is the winter, when the cold weather means less moisture in the air and it means better pictures.... and as a general rule of thumb.... we point the telescope up, and that means that to see the back of the camera we either have to use a diagonal (90 degree mirror) that degrades the image and makes focusing a problem, or we have get BELOW the camera to see the back of it.... this means a lot of lying in the snow, and quite frankly, I prefer a tilt-swivel screen to lying in the snow.

I look forward to wifi enabled bodies where I can stream the view and controls to a phone or tablet that I can keep warm under my coat.... but then you probably think that wifi has no place in cameras either....

I'll tell you something else about astrophotography...... it happens a lot at night, and low light/ high ISO performance is very important to us.... so the idea of high end cameras with either wifi or articulated screens is very welcome to this segment of the population. Cheap cameras and video recorders just do not cut it here.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: candyman on December 04, 2012, 12:56:44 AM
I do see the 7D (and its successor) positioned as a wildlife/Sports camera. Considering this, the 7D is weathersealed. So why should this camera get a 'flipscreen' in the 7D MKII? This feature may be the thing for a 70D that probably will get very good video specs.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: niccon on December 04, 2012, 02:56:01 AM
Low noise at high iso is not a question for nikon, canon had allways some problems wit that.

low noise at high iso has been an issue with nikon many years back (early 2000s) and nikon users at that time wish they can look into cmos (which canon employed) for improvement. it was only recent years (after 2006, i think) that nikon sensor started to improve and eventually overtake (or levelled with) canon in this aspect.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: TWI by Dustin Abbott on December 04, 2012, 08:59:53 AM
I do see the 7D (and its successor) positioned as a wildlife/Sports camera. Considering this, the 7D is weathersealed. So why should this camera get a 'flipscreen' in the 7D MKII? This feature may be the thing for a 70D that probably will get very good video specs.

The 60D is also weathersealed, just not quite to the degree of the 7D.  I don't think weathersealing is the issue.  I would guess that demand is probably the bigger issue.  It is obviously a divisive issue here, and if this group is representative of the intended market, the 7D MKII may not have the screen because not enough of the market demands it.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: Powder Portraits on December 04, 2012, 12:22:44 PM
As a employer who "trains" staff to be on the hill ski photographers I would never outfit a ski photographer with a breakaway flip screen.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: coreyhkh on December 04, 2012, 12:48:35 PM
The market for the 7d and is sports and wildlife, there is no need or place for that stupid screen. Its great for some people, but that should be a feature of the 70d.

A lot of people that will buy the new 7D will be using it outside where things happen, rain/snow hitting trees and dropping it is just normal, no matter how careful you are things happen.

I would still buy this camera if it had the screen but I would prefer it didn't. 
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: jasonsim on December 04, 2012, 01:08:49 PM
You have the Canon 60Da that was made specifically with the astronomer in mind.  It has the swivel screen and 18MP with 5.3FPS.  How much faster do you need for astronomy?

Or you can always invest in an extra long giant Gitzo tripod.  There are some that go above 94 inches.

cheap cameras and actual video cameras are what flip screens go on. If a flip screen is important you prob should be looking at video cameras.

Just because something is your opinion does not make it reality to all....

Have you ever heard of astrophotography? You attach the camera to the telescope and take pictures of the stars.... The best time of the year is the winter, when the cold weather means less moisture in the air and it means better pictures.... and as a general rule of thumb.... we point the telescope up, and that means that to see the back of the camera we either have to use a diagonal (90 degree mirror) that degrades the image and makes focusing a problem, or we have get BELOW the camera to see the back of it.... this means a lot of lying in the snow, and quite frankly, I prefer a tilt-swivel screen to lying in the snow.

I look forward to wifi enabled bodies where I can stream the view and controls to a phone or tablet that I can keep warm under my coat.... but then you probably think that wifi has no place in cameras either....

I'll tell you something else about astrophotography...... it happens a lot at night, and low light/ high ISO performance is very important to us.... so the idea of high end cameras with either wifi or articulated screens is very welcome to this segment of the population. Cheap cameras and video recorders just do not cut it here.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: dlleno on December 04, 2012, 01:33:57 PM
Sad_Dave:  see?  there are important reasons behind the comments and speculations here.  Generally, the ones who expect all features on one camera are without a firm grasp of tradeoffs, target markets and cost consequences. 

as far as the discussion itself goes, -  A wildlife camera should be optimized for the environments it is expected to be used-- outdoors in less than ideal conditions.  It should not be have the ability to place a portion of its hardware in a mechanically  vulnerable position, increasing chance of equipment failure in enviroments more hostile, for example,  than an indoor birthday party.  Moreover, a wildlife/action 'tog is not likely to appreciate the cost, durability, weather sealing,  and ergonomic consequences of having such a screen but  simply avoiding its use.   

That said, the general purpose consumer who wants to chronicle family events, adding  a few cool portaits, landscapes, and macros along the way, would likely be happy with a general purpose camera with an articulating screen, especially if there is no desire to chase moose in the snow. 

I do acknowledge (and even suspect) that if Canon strengthens the wildlife/sports orientation of the 7D even further in the 7D2, and perhaps even produces a worthy successor to the 1D4, that there will be some disspointed consumers who want the status of a single digit camera with the consumer features of the xxD
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: Don Haines on December 04, 2012, 11:07:54 PM
You have the Canon 60Da that was made specifically with the astronomer in mind.  It has the swivel screen and 18MP with 5.3FPS.  How much faster do you need for astronomy?

Or you can always invest in an extra long giant Gitzo tripod.  There are some that go above 94 inches.

5.3 frames per second has absolutly nothing to do with "faster for astronomy" because exposure times are in minutes.... I tend to use the IoShutterPro app on an ipad to control the shutter because the camera itself will only allow a 30 second maximum exposure. For faster, we mean higher ISO and lower noise at higher ISO's is highly desired. I was taking pictures of the Andromeda galaxy a few days ago, F2.8, ISO3200, 8 minute exposure time..... and that's a fairly bright target!

Gitzo tripods may be great for most people, but in astrophotography we mount our telescopes and cameras on tracking mounts.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: Sad_Dave on December 05, 2012, 05:28:50 AM
I do understand well that some of the consumer can afford more than one camera body. Each one for a different use, but not all of us can. For those who can purchase only one camera that one should have as much features as possible. If some shoot only sports, well just don't need that flip screen. If somebody is just taking pictures at the birthdayparty, than he just is ok with a xxxD. But if you find interest in shooting many different things you want a camera that offers all the needed featurs like flip screen, fast shooting, fast af and so on.
That camera would be the right one for me, because i can only buy one an not 2 more as a back up.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: miah on December 05, 2012, 08:41:25 AM
I must agree with TWI by Dustin Abbott. I recently added a 5DIII to my T3i and miss the flip-screen and pop-up flash more than the lost reach. The fear of extra moving parts, less weather-sealing, and more vulnerability to breakage--while a reasonable assumption--is not born out by the facts. I too worried about these issues when moving from the T1i (no flip-screen) to the T3i (flip-screen). But like the T1i before it, I've dragged my T3i to hell and back, bouncing around the [third] world on a dirt bike for months and months and months at a time, camping at night, through all sorts of climates, weather, places and circumstances that would insult any camera. And like TWI by Dustin Abbott, I've found the reversibility of the T3i's screen actually makes it LESS prone to damage! It's maybe a bit counterintuitive, but that fragile piece of stationary glass on the back of our cameras, without so much as a "lens cap" for protection, is the most vulnerable part of all.

So, I too hope the 7DII comes in with a flip-screen and a pop-up flash. If it doesn't, I'll stick with the T3i as my second body. These two features add a lot of utility and convenience without significantly impacting durability, IMHO.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: neuroanatomist on December 05, 2012, 09:43:49 AM
....in astrophotography we mount our telescopes and cameras on tracking mounts.

Wait, wait...you mean the earth moves during your exposures?   :o

 ;)
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: Don Haines on December 05, 2012, 11:08:50 AM
A question - has anyone tried to capture a BIF using the screen?
The very few times I've used the LCD on my 7D instead of the viewfinder I found it very difficult to track moving animals, let alone a bird in flight, especially with my longer lenses. Holding the camera to my eye makes it much easier to follow the critter.

"live view" could be better described as "delayed view".... and the focus speed seems to be a lot slower in the live view mode. When you press the shutter there is considerable delay before the picture is taken. That delay and action shots don't seem to fit together. Personally, I find that I only use live view when on a tripod or when manually setting focus. I have used Rebels, 60D, 7D, and 5DII and they all seem to have the same delay in "live view"
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: dlleno on December 05, 2012, 11:30:14 AM
I do understand well that some of the consumer can afford more than one camera body. Each one for a different use, but not all of us can. For those who can purchase only one camera that one should have as much features as possible. If some shoot only sports, well just don't need that flip screen. If somebody is just taking pictures at the birthdayparty, than he just is ok with a xxxD. But if you find interest in shooting many different things you want a camera that offers all the needed featurs like flip screen, fast shooting, fast af and so on.
That camera would be the right one for me, because i can only buy one an not 2 more as a back up.

you're not the only one.    For example, some will buy the 7D2 even if it has an articulating screen if they are not likely to hike through the brush during the rain chasing moose.  Those who stand shoulder to shoulder in a crowd using a monopod, worried about that screen getting bumped by a flying elbow, may think differently.

And Miah your experience is important, to be sure; I just wouldn't go quite as far as saying that your assesment is factual for all wildlife/action 'togs.  I'm sure there are a number of situations where the 1D4 and 1DX would wink and smile where the xxD and Rebels would die.   

In the end,  Canon's marketing research has to describe the  target the market that will make them money, and then go after it.  Some will be closer to the target audience than others.   I'm reminded of Canons announcement that 1D and 1Ds would merge into the 1DX, and all the speculating around Canon abandoning the 1D4 market.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: miah on December 05, 2012, 11:51:45 AM
Granted, dlleno, I should have said "my experience," rather than "the facts." That said, the concern I see here about the screen being ripped off while chasing a moose in heavy brush or taken out by an errant elbow in a crowd (I've used my T3i in both situations) fails to recognize that in those instances you can merely flip the screen back on itself and fold it into the camera body so that it looks and behaves exactly like the fixed screen on a 7D or 5D.

In short, flip-screens add moving parts, are less weatherproof, and when protruded can increase the possibility of damage. But, the design is well engineered and has survived the test-of-time, at least in my experience. I've never had to send my T3i in for repair. I've never had a weather-related issue, although I am careful about using shower caps and such to keep things dry. And the protrusion issue is easily solved by flipping the screen around and folding it into the body. Hence, there is much utility and convenience to be gained by the flip for self-timers, low-angle macro, high-angle crowd shots, and even the occasional hold-the-camera-out-on-the-end-of-the-tripod-and-shoot-with-a-wireless-remote shots.

I'm not suggesting that the flip-screen doesn't have downsides, just that they're overblown. Or more simply, I find the pros well outweigh the cons. That's why I am hoping that the 7DII, with all of its hoped for improvements, includes a flip-screen.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: dlleno on December 05, 2012, 01:40:25 PM
Granted, dileno, I should have said "my experience," rather than "the facts." That said, the concern I see here about the screen being ripped off while chasing a moose in heavy brush or taken out by an errant elbow in a crowd (I've used my T3i in both situations) fails to recognize that in those instances you can merely flip the screen back on itself and fold it into the camera body so that it looks and behaves exactly like the fixed screen on a 7D or 5D.

In short, flip-screens add moving parts, are less weatherproof, and when protruded can increase the possibility of damage. But, the design is well engineered and has survived the test-of-time, at least in my experience. I've never had to send my T3i in for repair. I've never had a weather-related issue, although I am careful about using shower caps and such to keep things dry. And the protrusion issue is easily solved by flipping the screen around and folding it into the body. Hence, there is much utility and convenience to be gained by the flip for self-timers, low-angle macro, high-angle crowd shots, and even the occasional hold-the-camera-out-on-the-end-of-the-tripod-and-shoot-with-a-wireless-remote shots.

I'm not suggesting that the flip-screen doesn't have downsides, just that they're overblown. Or more simply, I find the pros well outweigh the cons. That's why I am hoping that the 7DII, with all of its hoped for improvements, includes a flip-screen.

no argument here, especially for occasional wildlife adventures and general purpose photography in good weather or indoors. in fact, should Canon target the 7D2 toards that market i suspect it will have the screen.  Its the serious outdoor wildlife 'togs that are not likely to to reach for the 7D2 if it has the screen because it won't be up to the weather sealing standards of those who chase moose regularly in the rain, and the ergonomic consequences of having it there (but not using it) are unsavory. 

time will tell where the 7D2 is positioned, i.e. if it is closer to being a 1D4 successor or simply the flagship crop  body with better specs than the 70D. 

As for the crop bodies winning the IQ contest in focal length limited scenarios (for larger prints especially), I suppose there is even a point of diminishing returns at very long subject distances (and very long focal lengths) where the "reach" advantage starts to erode due to environmental/atmospheric conditions.  To the extent this is true,  Canon is probably optimizing both IQ and their profits to move the pro 'togs to FF and longer glass (while abandoning the 'H' sensor), and positioning the crop 'reach' cameras for mortals who can't afford the longer glass.  This puts the "reach" debate in terms of "focal length" limits rather than "distance" limits, as neuro has done.   Thus,  when the glass budget is unlimited, the scenarios where the crop sensor produces better IQ than the FF sensors are few. 
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: Bosman on December 05, 2012, 08:57:57 PM
The aps-c on the 7d2 will have to be some new tech to compete with an APS-H of a 1dm4. I hope it is and i hope it does.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: verysimplejason on December 05, 2012, 09:16:09 PM
....in astrophotography we mount our telescopes and cameras on tracking mounts.

Wait, wait...you mean the earth moves during your exposures?   :o

 ;)

I think he refers to the tracking mounts used to mount the telescopes (not primarily for moving but for re-positioning of the telescope).  When rotated 90 degrees, it's either you go underneath the telescope to attach your camera (and view/compose the shot) or if you have a flip screen, you can simply flip and you have already a view of your shot.  6D might have offered a good workaround to this by providing a flip-screen like feature through Wifi/smartphone.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: Don Haines on December 05, 2012, 09:34:11 PM
....in astrophotography we mount our telescopes and cameras on tracking mounts.

Wait, wait...you mean the earth moves during your exposures?   :o

 ;)

I think he refers to the tracking mounts used to mount the telescopes (not primarily for moving but for re-positioning of the telescope).  When rotated 90 degrees, it's either you go underneath the telescope to attach your camera (and view/compose the shot) or if you have a flip screen, you can simply flip and you have already a view of your shot.  6D might have offered a good workaround to this by providing a flip-screen like feature through Wifi/smartphone.

I mean tracking mounts.... polar align the mount, calibrate the mount, then point it at, for example, Jupiter and the camera stays on Jupiter as it arcs across the sky.... the mount tracks celestrial bodies....  neuro's response was tongue in cheek... everyone knows the earth stays still and the universe revolves around it  :)
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: rpt on December 05, 2012, 09:43:36 PM
....in astrophotography we mount our telescopes and cameras on tracking mounts.

Wait, wait...you mean the earth moves during your exposures?   :o

 ;)

I think he refers to the tracking mounts used to mount the telescopes (not primarily for moving but for re-positioning of the telescope).  When rotated 90 degrees, it's either you go underneath the telescope to attach your camera (and view/compose the shot) or if you have a flip screen, you can simply flip and you have already a view of your shot.  6D might have offered a good workaround to this by providing a flip-screen like feature through Wifi/smartphone.

I mean tracking mounts.... polar align the mount, calibrate the mount, then point it at, for example, Jupiter and the camera stays on Jupiter as it arcs across the sky.... the mount tracks celestrial bodies....  neuro's response was tongue in cheek... everyone knows the earth stays still and the universe revolves around it  :)
Neuro forgot to put his <sarcasm> tag
That probably threw everybody ;)
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: East Wind Photography on December 05, 2012, 11:11:33 PM
+1 on this.  The effects of atmospheric and heat dispersion on IQ at longer focal lengths sometimes makes me wonder if my equipment is operating properly.  But alas it is Canon and I shouldnt doubt my equipment.  More careful checks always reveal atmospheric restrictions...so longer glass does not always mean more reach, just bigger subjects.

 I spoke with an engineer at Canon not too long ago and temperature variations on the equipment can cause IQ issues as well...such as bringing your 600mm out of a warm house and into 30 degree weather.  As the glass cools it's changes shape thus throwing everything out of kilt in the lens until the temperature stabilizes.  Still even differences between warm and cold operating temps can cause the lenses and cameras to operate with different specs.  Canon calibrates at "room temperature".  Anything else and your results WILL vary.

Granted, dileno, I should have said "my experience," rather than "the facts." That said, the concern I see here about the screen being ripped off while chasing a moose in heavy brush or taken out by an errant elbow in a crowd (I've used my T3i in both situations) fails to recognize that in those instances you can merely flip the screen back on itself and fold it into the camera body so that it looks and behaves exactly like the fixed screen on a 7D or 5D.

In short, flip-screens add moving parts, are less weatherproof, and when protruded can increase the possibility of damage. But, the design is well engineered and has survived the test-of-time, at least in my experience. I've never had to send my T3i in for repair. I've never had a weather-related issue, although I am careful about using shower caps and such to keep things dry. And the protrusion issue is easily solved by flipping the screen around and folding it into the body. Hence, there is much utility and convenience to be gained by the flip for self-timers, low-angle macro, high-angle crowd shots, and even the occasional hold-the-camera-out-on-the-end-of-the-tripod-and-shoot-with-a-wireless-remote shots.

I'm not suggesting that the flip-screen doesn't have downsides, just that they're overblown. Or more simply, I find the pros well outweigh the cons. That's why I am hoping that the 7DII, with all of its hoped for improvements, includes a flip-screen.

no argument here, especially for occasional wildlife adventures and general purpose photography in good weather or indoors. in fact, should Canon target the 7D2 toards that market i suspect it will have the screen.  Its the serious outdoor wildlife 'togs that are not likely to to reach for the 7D2 if it has the screen because it won't be up to the weather sealing standards of those who chase moose regularly in the rain, and the ergonomic consequences of having it there (but not using it) are unsavory. 

time will tell where the 7D2 is positioned, i.e. if it is closer to being a 1D4 successor or simply the flagship crop  body with better specs than the 70D. 

As for the crop bodies winning the IQ contest in focal length limited scenarios (for larger prints especially), I suppose there is even a point of diminishing returns at very long subject distances (and very long focal lengths) where the "reach" advantage starts to erode due to environmental/atmospheric conditions.  To the extent this is true,  Canon is probably optimizing both IQ and their profits to move the pro 'togs to FF and longer glass (while abandoning the 'H' sensor), and positioning the crop 'reach' cameras for mortals who can't afford the longer glass.  This puts the "reach" debate in terms of "focal length" limits rather than "distance" limits, as neuro has done.   Thus,  when the glass budget is unlimited, the scenarios where the crop sensor produces better IQ than the FF sensors are few.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: verysimplejason on December 05, 2012, 11:13:30 PM
....in astrophotography we mount our telescopes and cameras on tracking mounts.

Wait, wait...you mean the earth moves during your exposures?   :o

 ;)

I think he refers to the tracking mounts used to mount the telescopes (not primarily for moving but for re-positioning of the telescope).  When rotated 90 degrees, it's either you go underneath the telescope to attach your camera (and view/compose the shot) or if you have a flip screen, you can simply flip and you have already a view of your shot.  6D might have offered a good workaround to this by providing a flip-screen like feature through Wifi/smartphone.

I mean tracking mounts.... polar align the mount, calibrate the mount, then point it at, for example, Jupiter and the camera stays on Jupiter as it arcs across the sky.... the mount tracks celestrial bodies....  neuro's response was tongue in cheek... everyone knows the earth stays still and the universe revolves around it  :)
Neuro forgot to put his <sarcasm> tag
That probably threw everybody ;)
definitely.  :)
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: mystic~theory 15 on December 06, 2012, 11:23:49 AM
Is there any possibility that the t5i will be available by the beginning of next summer?
I would love to buy one when I go to conferences in the USA during the summer.  ;D
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: BRNexus6 on December 07, 2012, 12:48:01 AM
MP count seems overkill on an APS-C sensor. I'm guessing we won't even see a whole stop in ISO improvements over the 7D.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: Don Haines on December 07, 2012, 10:08:42 PM
+1 on this.  The effects of atmospheric and heat dispersion on IQ at longer focal lengths sometimes makes me wonder if my equipment is operating properly.  But alas it is Canon and I shouldnt doubt my equipment.  More careful checks always reveal atmospheric restrictions...so longer glass does not always mean more reach, just bigger subjects.

 I spoke with an engineer at Canon not too long ago and temperature variations on the equipment can cause IQ issues as well...such as bringing your 600mm out of a warm house and into 30 degree weather.  As the glass cools it's changes shape thus throwing everything out of kilt in the lens until the temperature stabilizes.  Still even differences between warm and cold operating temps can cause the lenses and cameras to operate with different specs.  Canon calibrates at "room temperature".  Anything else and your results WILL vary.

Tips from the world of astronomy...... (you think your 600mm is big glass...., when we say 600mm we're talking about diameter of the glass, not focal length  :) )

When going out into the cold, give your glass at least an hour to stabilize..... when you are coming back in your worry is condensation on the lens.... cold lens + warm moist air = very wet lens.... Carry along a plastic bag to protect your lens.... before coming inside, put the lens in the bag, suck as much air out as you can, seal the bag, and come inside. After an hour or so, open up the bag and let the lens finish adapting to inside conditions. You will find that this gives you a lot less condensation.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: xps on December 14, 2012, 06:02:52 PM
Found on an German IT-news page:

Maybe interresting: Fast, good image quality.

http://www.golem.de/news/aufloesung-und-geschwindigkeit-canon-7d-mark-ii-fuer-sport-und-landschaftsfotografen-1212-96081.html (http://www.golem.de/news/aufloesung-und-geschwindigkeit-canon-7d-mark-ii-fuer-sport-und-landschaftsfotografen-1212-96081.html)

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_7dmk2.html (http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_7dmk2.html)
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: ColinLovesGreen on December 16, 2012, 12:13:52 AM
Does anyone have an Idealistic price point for the Canon EOS 7D Mark II? Cause I am saving up for one even though there is not an exact release date or price for that matter, but I want to know a price range at least, if anyone knows? Thanks!!!
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: x-vision on December 16, 2012, 03:47:11 AM
It's all speculation at this time, not even rumors.

My prediction is that the price will be $1600-1800 in the US.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: dlleno on December 18, 2012, 11:27:00 AM
in order to acheive all of the rumored capabilities, the 7D2 is going to have to utilize a newer sensor generation than even the 6D, and maybe even come in at a similar or even a higher price.  $2500 wouldn't surprise me.     Its also possible that it may utilize the same sensor technology as the rumored 46mp FF "big megapixel" sensor that we're supposed to hear about next year as well.  Realizing that 46mp happens to be the same pixel density as a 1.6x crop at 18mp, we could also suggest that the newer sensor generation could stay at 46 "ish" MP for the FF version, and spawn a 25 "ish"  sensor for the 7D2, making the former (FF) sensor perform better in those IQ areas driven by lower pixel density.   

a  high-fps dual digic 5+ 7D2 that shares the AF system of the 1DX and 5D3 is probably going to be priced more than $1800, just my opinion.  especially if it equals or outperforms those cameras in low-light AF performance and can either provide its own AF assist or at least impressively utilize those provided by shoe mounted accessories.  Time will tell how Canon positions this one, but to me the indications are that it's getting promoted to a higher pay curve with "flaghship crop" status, i.e. weather-sealed, grip-optional but otherwise worthy successor to the 1D4 type of body :D

too bad the AF systems are not perfected to work with IR assist...  that would be cool

BTW, another bonus would be GPS/Wifi borrowed from the 6D and/or integrated radio flash controller.  Canon is clearly moving away from optical controlled speedlites, so my guess is that this paves the way for a "no pop-up flash" on the 7D2 and an integrated radio controller.  just CR-1 speculation of course...
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: crasher8 on December 18, 2012, 03:03:19 PM
So….what happens if the 7D2 is noisy above 6400 as well? I sold my 7D and never looked back.I needed more than just AF.  I'm not so certain that Canon will introduce new sensor tech just for an 1.6 that can truly meet the demands of current 7D users and not put it in the FF price realm. I wish they could but I'm afraid it'll be a reiteration of the current sensors available akin to what they tweaked for the T4i. A minor step.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: mortadella on December 18, 2012, 04:41:08 PM
Now that the 6D is in the mix, and the 5D3 feature set is clearly way beyond what the 5dmk2 offered, Canon has definitely created another tier within the xD series of cameras.

If there is no drastic departure from the original 7D - and this rumor indicates that it will still be APS-C, fast shooter, better-than-similarly-priced-FF AF.  I see the 6D & 7D positioned how the 1D bodies were before the release of the 1DX.  One is for the landscape and portrait shooter, the other for the wildlife and sports shooter.  Note: I didn't feel like the 5Dmk2 and 7D did that due to the ~$800 price difference, considering that was 50% of the 7D price.

Canon has decided at least for the time being and for those who buy 1D series body - you don't have to make a compromise with your purchase (you shouldn't for $7k). 

That won't be true for the lower xD class, I would guess that the 7D might be priced equal to the 6D.  If that is the case though don't expect the 7D to beat the 6D at high ISO performance, but cleaner 100-400 should be expected.  So upgraders will have a difficult choice to make, which suits their needs better, rather than just what suits their budgets.  And it probably makes more sense for that type of choice to be made at this price point than at the top.  Good move by Canon if this truly the direction.

 
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: x-vision on December 18, 2012, 05:10:20 PM
I'm not so certain that Canon will introduce new sensor tech just for an 1.6 ...

You are basically right.

Still, the most practical thing to do when introducing new tech is to put it in smaller sensors first .
In fact, that's what Canon is doing already with the S100/S110/G15 sensor - which is made on new tech.

Eventually, this new tech will make it into DSLR sensors as well.
At that time, it would make the most sense if it's used for 1.6x sensors first.

Of course this is not guaranteed and Canon might have other plans.

To me, though, a 7DII with the same sensor as the 7D is kind of pointless.

Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: dlleno on December 18, 2012, 06:03:07 PM
I'm not so certain that Canon will introduce new sensor tech just for an 1.6 ...

You are basically right.

Still, the most practical thing to do when introducing new tech is to put it in smaller sensors first .
In fact, that's what Canon is doing already with the S100/S110/G15 sensor - which is made on new tech.

Eventually, this new tech will make it into DSLR sensors as well.
At that time, it would make the most sense if it's used for 1.6x sensors first.

Of course this is not guaranteed and Canon might have other plans.

To me, though, a 7DII with the same sensor as the 7D is kind of pointless.

introducing a new crop sensor in the 7D2 would follow the 7D tradition (although the 18MP 7D sensor was not really revolutionary or disruptive at the time;  it represented incremental improvments with over-sold ISO performance imho). The 7D2 sensor will either be a distruptively new crop sensor (perhaps with 46mp influence) or it will be an incrmental improvement (with t4i heritage)  in pretty colored wrapping,  oversold to appear disruptive (like the 7D sensor was).  If Canon builds and measures the 7D2 against the 7D, ("look, we listened and updated the 7D with better AF, 10fps...) then the upade will feel a lot like the 5D3:  great anticipation, followed  by some disapointment fueled by those who read numbers, followed by the realization that the camera is a very solid performer in the target venue, followed by arguments over whether or not one should upgrade, followed by a low DxO score.... etc.   If Canon builds and measures the 7D2 against the market, then we will see some wahoo. 
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: Krob78 on December 21, 2012, 10:00:30 AM
I'm not so certain that Canon will introduce new sensor tech just for an 1.6 ...

You are basically right.

Still, the most practical thing to do when introducing new tech is to put it in smaller sensors first .
In fact, that's what Canon is doing already with the S100/S110/G15 sensor - which is made on new tech.

Eventually, this new tech will make it into DSLR sensors as well.
At that time, it would make the most sense if it's used for 1.6x sensors first.

Of course this is not guaranteed and Canon might have other plans.

To me, though, a 7DII with the same sensor as the 7D is kind of pointless.

introducing a new crop sensor in the 7D2 would follow the 7D tradition (although the 18MP 7D sensor was not really revolutionary or disruptive at the time;  it represented incremental improvments with over-sold ISO performance imho). The 7D2 sensor will either be a distruptively new crop sensor (perhaps with 46mp influence) or it will be an incrmental improvement (with t4i heritage)  in pretty colored wrapping,  oversold to appear disruptive (like the 7D sensor was).  If Canon builds and measures the 7D2 against the 7D, ("look, we listened and updated the 7D with better AF, 10fps...) then the upade will feel a lot like the 5D3:  great anticipation, followed  by some disapointment fueled by those who read numbers, followed by the realization that the camera is a very solid performer in the target venue, followed by arguments over whether or not one should upgrade, followed by a low DxO score.... etc.   If Canon builds and measures the 7D2 against the market, then we will see some wahoo.

Agreed and well said!  Realizing that it will likely be late 2013 befor release, due to  the much needed bug fixes that will be needed in the first few months, seasonal sales like black friday and Christmas, to look forward too, anticipating price drops... it would likely be late 2014 before a purchase of the 7D2 would make sense for me, not being an early adopter... That should be about 1 year after announcement and 6 months after initial release...  That should get me the price I want!

In the meantime, my 5D MK III arives Saturday or Monday!  Yay!  Merry Christmas! ;D
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: grenwick on December 27, 2012, 02:33:27 AM
I think when the 7D Mark ll comes out it will cost close to $2,299.99CDN which is $1,000 more than the 7D Mark l is selling for this week. I paid $1,389.99 in August 2012 and am quite happy with the 7D. I look forward to having camera envy and reading about the 7D ll. If it doesn't take compact flash then I would have to toss out 6 or 7cards. I don't think Full Frame is for me as I like taking birds in flight and cropping to 5x7 or 4x6 before printing. :)
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: stefsan on December 27, 2012, 08:10:26 AM
Found on an German IT-news page:

Maybe interresting: Fast, good image quality.

http://www.golem.de/news/aufloesung-und-geschwindigkeit-canon-7d-mark-ii-fuer-sport-und-landschaftsfotografen-1212-96081.html (http://www.golem.de/news/aufloesung-und-geschwindigkeit-canon-7d-mark-ii-fuer-sport-und-landschaftsfotografen-1212-96081.html)

The article is actually nothing more than a collection of RUMORS from CR and Northlight but selling them like an official Canon press release…  ???
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: K-amps on December 27, 2012, 02:58:02 PM
I do understand well that some of the consumer can afford more than one camera body. Each one for a different use, but not all of us can. For those who can purchase only one camera that one should have as much features as possible. If some shoot only sports, well just don't need that flip screen. If somebody is just taking pictures at the birthdayparty, than he just is ok with a xxxD. But if you find interest in shooting many different things you want a camera that offers all the needed featurs like flip screen, fast shooting, fast af and so on.
That camera would be the right one for me, because i can only buy one an not 2 more as a back up.

you're not the only one.    For example, some will buy the 7D2 even if it has an articulating screen if they are not likely to hike through the brush during the rain chasing moose.  Those who stand shoulder to shoulder in a crowd using a monopod, worried about that screen getting bumped by a flying elbow, may think differently.

And Miah your experience is important, to be sure; I just wouldn't go quite as far as saying that your assesment is factual for all wildlife/action 'togs.  I'm sure there are a number of situations where the 1D4 and 1DX would wink and smile where the xxD and Rebels would die.   

In the end,  Canon's marketing research has to describe the  target the market that will make them money, and then go after it.  Some will be closer to the target audience than others.   I'm reminded of Canons announcement that 1D and 1Ds would merge into the 1DX, and all the speculating around Canon abandoning the 1D4 market.

Why does the camera industry not have more of these slight "version"  offering? e.g. only recently has a company made 2 versions of the same DSLR (one without the "E"). Why cannot Canon offer 2 flavors of the 5d3 and 7d2. One with articulating screen and one without? I suspect the additional sales they garner from the bodies may not offset the additional productions costs of the body, but with someone switching to a Canon "System",  it would pay off for both consumer and supplier.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: K-amps on December 27, 2012, 03:00:28 PM
neuro's response was tongue in cheek... everyone knows the earth stays still and the universe revolves around it  :)


Love this forum and it's esteemed visitors.   :)
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: K-amps on December 27, 2012, 03:49:20 PM
It's all speculation at this time, not even rumors.

My prediction is that the price will be $1600-1800 in the US.

I predict $1000 "over" that Prediction.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: x-vision on December 27, 2012, 05:03:55 PM
My prediction is that the price will be $1600-1800 in the US.

I predict $1000 "over" that Prediction.

Hmm. You must be one of those who think that the 7DII will be a 1DIV replacement.
Not going to happen, trust me  :P.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: rpt on December 27, 2012, 07:14:33 PM
neuro's response was tongue in cheek... everyone knows the earth stays still and the universe revolves around it  :)


Love this forum and it's esteemed visitors.   :)
+10^10^10^10...

A lot of knowledge sharing, great photos and humor!
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: rpt on December 27, 2012, 07:17:03 PM
My prediction is that the price will be $1600-1800 in the US.

I predict $1000 "over" that Prediction.

Hmm. You must be one of those who think that the 7DII will be a 1DIV replacement.
Not going to happen, trust me  :P.
I like x-vision's better though I must admit that I too think the price may cross 2000...
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Information [CR1]
Post by: Aglet on December 28, 2012, 07:29:22 PM
Just sold my 7D for a decent price.  ;D
Now I can recharge my credit card and wait to see what's around the CES corner.
Hopefully something with better low ISO performance and equal or even better AF and, dare I wish for it, to be affordable?  Would be nice to hang an improvement on the end of my 100-400mm.  I can wait until summer on that.

My 5D2 should find a new place to live too. gonna take a bath on that one.  ???
Possibly followed by my love-it-hate-it 70-200mm f/2.8 L IS II if I don't stay in the Canon semi-pro body camp.  :-\