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Gear Talk => EOS Bodies - For Stills => Topic started by: plam_1980 on December 14, 2012, 11:00:27 AM

Title: My brand new 5D Mark III - what am I doing wrong, please help!
Post by: plam_1980 on December 14, 2012, 11:00:27 AM
Hey everyone, I need some help about settings of my new 5D Mark III

I received it 3 days ago and the very next day I went to a basketball game of a friend of mine to test it. I am coming from 550D which I know is much less complicated to set up but still the results from my new camera were discouraging. I also got "Canon 5D Mark III Experience" by Doug Klostermann, it seems amazing but in 1 day I had the time only to skim through the most important parts from it.

My lens is 135 f2 L and every shot with it and my 550D was very crisp and bright and sharp.
On the 5D Mark III I tried everything I could but the results were dim and dark
(http://s7.postimage.org/njsab6lij/T87_A0061.jpg)
I was shooting on Manual, @ f2, 1/320 to 1/500 sec, Auto ISO. The ISO indicator was changing from 200 to 800 I think. The results were all dark like that... I tried with fixed ISO 1000. Then at the one end of the court the pictures were bright enough but at close they were still dark (and I don't think I can change ISO every time the attack changes the sides, at least I never had to do it with my 550D).
The lighting in the hall was not very strong but it was far from what is portrayed in these photos. I tried different settings of WB and found out Auto was the best. I also tried different metering - it did not improve anything. Also is it normal that the image gets so dark in the corners???
(http://s9.postimage.org/lxm38ktm7/T87_A0064.jpg)
(http://s10.postimage.org/95sar7erd/T87_A0074.jpg)
(http://s12.postimage.org/5sqg0e46l/T87_A0084.jpg)
(http://s14.postimage.org/ij1c6cavl/T87_A0373.jpg)

I know it's me, but what am I doing wrong, please help!

P.S. I am not shooting in RAW, at least not when I am shooting just for pleasure, but these JPEGs should be much better, no?
Title: Re: My brand new 5D Mark III - what am I doing wrong, please help!
Post by: RLPhoto on December 14, 2012, 11:38:06 AM
The 135L vignettes at F/2 on FF. On your 550D, It doesn't see this because of the crop sensor and the 5D will show this. I believe it just the learning curve of getting used to the MK3, and how the Camera "behaves". You might have to expose more to right or stop down to remove the vignette.
Title: Re: My brand new 5D Mark III - what am I doing wrong, please help!
Post by: Drizzt321 on December 14, 2012, 11:55:20 AM
The 135L vignettes at F/2 on FF. On your 550D, It doesn't see this because of the crop sensor and the 5D will show this. I believe it just the learning curve of getting used to the MK3, and how the Camera "behaves". You might have to expose more to right or stop down to remove the vignette.

Have you tried turning on peripheral illumination correction? Or added the 135L profile to the camera (Looks like it's not (http://www.kenrockwell.com/canon/5d-mk-iii/users-guide/index.htm#lensopt)). On your JPGs this can help reduce the vignetting, although it's (more or less) just boosting the edges exposure before storing it as a JPG.

With the overall dimmer images, what settings would you normally have shot on your 550D? Those should still be valid, but you are able to go up to a much higher ISO and still get pretty clean shots. You can also change around the metering modes which would affect the Auto-ISO on M which it performs. If I recall, there's some (artificial) limitations that Canon has done with Auto-ISO on M mode. With the Metering, most of the time (depends on mode) it'll take what's in the center of the image and weight that a bit more towards the determining the correct exposure. Personally, I'd go with something like 1/500, f/2-f/4, ISO 3200. That'll give you pretty good shutter speed, and if you can managed to stop down a bit to f/4 it'll give you a bit more DoF which will be useful in getting more of your subject(s) in focus. Using this calculator (http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html), at f/2 and 20 feet, your DoF is .79 feet. Pretty shallow. If you go to f/4 you get 1.57 feet which gives you a lot more leeway.

Final words of advice, experiment! The 5d3 is a vastly different beast than your 550D, and congratulations on getting it. I know going from my 5d2 to 5d3 was a pretty large change with the somewhat different ergonomics and the vastly more complex AF system. It'll take you at least a few weeks of constant shooting in a variety of situations before you'll start getting comfortable with the AF system. Don't be afraid to experiment with the different modes and settings, it's a fantastic system and you'll get it!
Title: Re: My brand new 5D Mark III - what am I doing wrong, please help!
Post by: RS2021 on December 14, 2012, 12:03:25 PM
Vignetting is somewhat expected and easily corrected... I would suggest set ISO manually and work out the rest to stop action. Vignetting aside, I am not wowed by the focus in some shots given what is expected from 135L. Based on a recent experience with a friend who had less than stellar pics with his brand new 5d3 and 70-300L which had to do with his AF setting ...he had chosen "spot" ( very tiny area selected meant to shoot through obstuctions for example a small bird through foliage in the foreground). Once set to "single point" or "expanded" it was crisp....

I realize this is anecdotal and may not apply in your case, but something to think about as the  instruction manual is dismal with details about the differences in AF for both 1DX and 5d3. Good luck.
Title: Re: My brand new 5D Mark III - what am I doing wrong, please help!
Post by: K-amps on December 14, 2012, 12:11:52 PM
I think the issue is either incorrect exposure settings or metering mode.

Vignetting will not this much low exposure.

What is your metering set at? Do you have it set to spot metering?

Did you AE lock the exposure?

You might also want to check your exposure compensation it is set to the left? (EC)

Try Av mode @f2 and Auto ISO and evaluative metering... do you have the same issue?
Title: Re: My brand new 5D Mark III - what am I doing wrong, please help!
Post by: TrumpetPower! on December 14, 2012, 12:52:36 PM
It's very likely that the lights in the arena are flickering and that you'll need a slower shutter speed to catch the whole cycle of flickering. Such is the case with a lot of indoor stadium lighting.

If you want to do it right, you'll need to install radio-triggered flashes in the overhead rafters. Assuming that's not an option, just use a lower shutter.

There's also no need for autoexposure indoors like this. The light isn't changing. If you can get there early enough to get a gray card meter reading and white balance from the court itself, lock in both manually. If not, spend the first few minutes fiddling with the exposure and manual white balance until the histogram (if shooting raw) or back-of-camera preview (if shooting JPEG) looks good. Be sure to shoot some bursts and compare shot-to-shot exposure and color...if there're visible changes, it's because the lighting sucks, and your only option is to keep slowing down the shutter.

And, yes...if you let the shutter get too slow, you'll get objectionable motion blur. That's why the proper answer is high-powered flashes. (And you can actually see such flashes regularly going off on TV broadcasts.)

Cheers,

b&
Title: Re: My brand new 5D Mark III - what am I doing wrong, please help!
Post by: phixional ninja on December 14, 2012, 01:15:08 PM
You say that your ISO was going between 200 and 800, is it possible that the auto ISO maximum was set to 800, and that just wasn't enough? (You said even manually setting ISO to 1000 was only bright enough at one end of the court...) 
Title: Re: My brand new 5D Mark III - what am I doing wrong, please help!
Post by: awinphoto on December 14, 2012, 01:32:54 PM
vinetting is going to be a problem wide open on a full frame... lens profiles help, but to an extent... You are shooting on auto ISO and manual settings...  This is where a lot of people are bitching about AUTO ISO and lack of exposure compensation... It could be that the rebel was over exposing, but keep in mind, with auto settings, it is trying to make your shot 18% gray, middle tone gray.  So for the most part, that's what it's doing... making it somewhat muddy, consistently.  What I would do since you cannot exposure correct on the fly in manual with auto iso, and you have a shutter requirement, shoot in shutter priority... this will open up exposure compensation with auto ISO, it will allow you to set it at +1 or whatever tickles your fancy, and set your shutter speed and away you go... Also if you learn your exposure really good, since your indoors and light will be consistant... play around with what the appropriate ISO is.  Once you got that nailed, you really don't need to change your settings, ever, unless you find something off. As long as the lighting doesn't change, your settings dont need to change...  So pregame, find your exposure and away you go.  Hope this helps.
Title: Re: My brand new 5D Mark III - what am I doing wrong, please help!
Post by: distant.star on December 14, 2012, 01:33:30 PM
I think the issue is either incorrect exposure settings or metering mode.

Vignetting will not this much low exposure.

What is your metering set at? Do you have it set to spot metering?

Did you AE lock the exposure?

You might also want to check your exposure compensation it is set to the left? (EC)

Try Av mode @f2 and Auto ISO and evaluative metering... do you have the same issue?

These are the things than come to mind for me. First thing I'd do is AV mode, auto ISO and eval meter to see what ISO and shutter speed the camera is picking.

Aside from this issue, it's good to see a lot of posts from new 5D3 owners -- obviously lots of folks are getting them now. Mine comes next week, and I'm not looking forward to the whole setup and learning experience.
Title: Re: My brand new 5D Mark III - what am I doing wrong, please help!
Post by: Cptn Rigo on December 14, 2012, 01:35:30 PM
It's very likely that the lights in the arena are flickering and that you'll need a slower shutter speed to catch the whole cycle of flickering. Such is the case with a lot of indoor stadium lighting.

+1 for the stadium light

I have the same results taking photos of a baseball pee wee league game in the night with stadium illumination.

When I saw the pics I almost crap my pants, in bursts the same frame changes from purple to green to dark, I fixed lowering my shutter speed.

Its funny, I was using exactly the same combo 135L + mkIII

cheers

 
Title: Re: My brand new 5D Mark III - what am I doing wrong, please help!
Post by: Deva on December 14, 2012, 01:39:05 PM
My own MkIII was under-exposing by about 2/3rds of a stop "out of the box", which I quickly noticed on its first major trip to Naples. Taking pictures of evenly illuminated gravel (under cloud), clearly showed the under-exposure. I contacted Canon, and sent it in to be looked at - within a week it was back, with the under-exposure corrected, albeit with about 6,000 exposures added to the count!

My advice, based on this experience, would therefore be to shoot under a variety of conditions to see if it's a systematic problem, or just related to the artificial lighting.
Title: Re: My brand new 5D Mark III - what am I doing wrong, please help!
Post by: Standard on December 14, 2012, 02:34:24 PM
I wouldn't worry about vignetting. It doesn't look like that's a concern.

I simply think instead of setting the camera on M (manual) you should set it to either Av (Aperture Value) or Tv (Time Value) then set your ISO accordingly. Inside a stadium, regardless of how bright it may look, the camera can't be as sensitive as your eyes if you don't have the settings right. As you're using the 135L and shooting a basketball game indoors, make sure the shutter speed is high enough for the camera to focus correctly as well as to compensate for handholding shakes, ie. I would make sure shutter speed is higher than 1/200, and even higher than 1/400 sec. The Mark III should have no issues focusing in lowlight at all but if you have the settings wrong, then it wouldn't matter what camera you have. Change your ISO accordingly until you get the shutter speed you need. Also, how are you holding the camera and lens? For focal length higher than 85mm, I have one hand (my left) supporting the underside of the lens while the other (my right) holding the camera with fingers in their respective spots, ie. shutter button, AF point selection button, multi-controller, etc. Personally, I always hold the camera this way even with my 24L II. Unless I am doing street photography and don't want people to know I am taking shots, I use various other "street" methods. I know you may already know this but I am often surprised to see people shooting incorrectly and wonder why their camera takes bad captures.

Other things to check are the exposure compensation setting to see if you'd inadvertently set it off as well as explore the different AF area selection modes to give you the best results.

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: My brand new 5D Mark III - what am I doing wrong, please help!
Post by: Axilrod on December 14, 2012, 03:17:56 PM
It's possible you accidentally dialed down the exposure compensation a couple stops, it shouldn't look like it does.
Title: Re: My brand new 5D Mark III - what am I doing wrong, please help!
Post by: awinphoto on December 14, 2012, 03:22:07 PM
It's possible you accidentally dialed down the exposure compensation a couple stops, it shouldn't look like it does.

He was shooting in manual... there is no exposure comp... so the meter is doing what it think is right... 18% gray
Title: Re: My brand new 5D Mark III - what am I doing wrong, please help!
Post by: awinphoto on December 14, 2012, 03:28:19 PM
It's possible you accidentally dialed down the exposure compensation a couple stops, it shouldn't look like it does.

and to take it one step further...  depending on the metering mode, it may be more easily fooled.  For instance, green grass, according to the most meters, is 18% gray... yellow hardboard wood with a gloss finish is probably more of a light gray (in terms of tonality)... so the camera, if it's reading lots of floor, and will underexpose to get it down to 18% gray...  it almost makes perfect sense...  AV may be dicey depending on the min shutter speed set and high ISO set...  TV would be more predictable when shutter speed is needed... then you can set exposure comp...  There may be voltage fluxuations as some mentioned with the lights...  TV would compensate for that I would think... But it's worth a try. 
Title: Re: My brand new 5D Mark III - what am I doing wrong, please help!
Post by: smitty541 on December 14, 2012, 04:13:59 PM
He was shooting in manual... there is no exposure comp... so the meter is doing what it think is right... 18% gray

So, does the mkIII have a real working AUTO ISO in manual now because if you set the mkII to auto ISO in manual you get ISO 400 and it won't change...

If the mkIII does have real AUTO ISO then exposure compensation would have to apply and I would guess that it's set underexposed...
Title: Re: My brand new 5D Mark III - what am I doing wrong, please help!
Post by: Eli on December 14, 2012, 04:21:20 PM
200-800 ISO with those settings in an indoor stadium seem a bit low? Especially since you've stated when you use 1000 ISO some parts of the court were properly exposed. Set your max autoISO higher, don't be afraid to go up to 6400 on your 5d mkiii, you'd be amazed how well it handles noise compared to your 550d.
And I think out of the box max AutoISO is set to 800.
Title: Re: My brand new 5D Mark III - what am I doing wrong, please help!
Post by: te4o on December 14, 2012, 04:36:14 PM
I received it 3 days ago and the very next day I went to a basketball game of a friend of mine to test it. I am coming from 550D which I know is much less complicated to set up but still the results from my new camera were discouraging.

Hey, Пламене,
Congratulations on the 5D3! Great jump! It is a matter of 1-2000 shots at least to get parts of the camera under control, like AF, buttons and customizations. After a while you realize that the camera is generally underexposing. Mine does that too. I stopped caring. I switched on Highlight Alert blinkies, look at the histogram and try to go AS FAR AS POSSIBLE to the right without clipping my Point of interest. ISO, shutter speed, aperture, whatever it takes for your subject. Pictures look like grossly overexposed on your LCD, you don't like them at all seen there. Software has improved so much that you can control highlights perfectly in post processing. The massive ETTR makes the difference to your 550: the FF goes clean even at ISO 10.000 after adequate noise reduction!!! Some of the shots have bright background around the centre (light reflection from the floor, white advertising boards etc): metering is thrown off by that.

Зала Универсиада не се е променила много. Играех там баскетбол като ученик/студент преди да емигрирам. Тъмно място.
Успех!
Title: Re: My brand new 5D Mark III - what am I doing wrong, please help!
Post by: swampler on December 14, 2012, 05:10:24 PM
Turn off auto ISO and shoot full manual. With constant lighting like that of a basketball court doesn't need auto anything to shoot with best results.
Title: Re: My brand new 5D Mark III - what am I doing wrong, please help!
Post by: rj79in on December 15, 2012, 04:13:15 AM
All I can say is shoot, shoot, shoot and in time you will find the solution. It is unlikely to be a camera problem but understanding the way the 5D3 functions as compared to the current stock of APS-Cs is in itself a challenge.

I also had a similar problems when I was initially comparing my shots with the 5D3 vis-a-vis the 7D in uneven lighting and found my shots with the 5D3 to be completely crap - same issue dim and dark. It was not until some considerable time that I realised (rather stupidly :-[) that the FOV of the FF was way larger than the crop as a result of which the uneven lighting was resulting in a less than preferable results with evaluative metering. The camera was functioning perfectly in the sense that it was averaging the scene correctly but of course it was not exactly what I wanted.
Title: Re: My brand new 5D Mark III - what am I doing wrong, please help!
Post by: Northstar on December 15, 2012, 05:18:52 AM

Quote
So, does the mkIII have a real working AUTO ISO in manual now because if you set the mkII to auto ISO in manual you get ISO 400 and it won't change...

Yes...5d3 has working auto iso in manual...I believe the range is 100-25600.
Title: Re: My brand new 5D Mark III - what am I doing wrong, please help!
Post by: Northstar on December 15, 2012, 05:33:14 AM
I agree with a few others....

1. shooting quick change of direction sports at f2 is tough, try shooting at 2.8...that will help your focus...I tried the 135 at f2 and had too many oof shots for my liking, though I do understand the appeal of a shot captured perfectly at f2.

2. You are definitely shooting at too low iso...and don't ever use auto iso for indoor sports...indoors at 1/500 even at f2 should be a minimum of 1000 iso, and more likely 1600 or 3200 iso... The 5d3 in Jpeg mode with high iso noise reduction turned on should give you pretty clean shots up to 3200....but as others have said, next time play around with the iso settings to get the correct exposure..

3. Stick with center weighted average metering for basketball.

4. Stick with servo af case #1, it works very well.
5. Use center focus point with either 4 or 8 surround points...both work well.
Title: Re: My brand new 5D Mark III - what am I doing wrong, please help!
Post by: rj79in on December 15, 2012, 06:53:56 AM

Quote
So, does the mkIII have a real working AUTO ISO in manual now because if you set the mkII to auto ISO in manual you get ISO 400 and it won't change...

Yes...5d3 has working auto iso in manual...I believe the range is 100-25600.

It extends to the L and the H1, H2
Title: Re: My brand new 5D Mark III - what am I doing wrong, please help!
Post by: plam_1980 on December 15, 2012, 10:44:04 AM
Wow, guys, thank you for the valuable advices and the support

The 135L vignettes at F/2 on FF.

I knew about vignetting, but did not think it was that pronounced. But it is the general darkness and muddyness that worried me, not just the vignetting

Have you tried turning on peripheral illumination correction? Or added the 135L profile to the camera

Thank you very much for this link, that information is inaluable, I already have loaded the profile and the few test shots I did at home show good improvement.

My 550D shot were indeed at much higher ISO (1600-3200) but they were again in Auto ISO, I believed that the 5D Mark III will select the appropriate one too. I have not set maximum Auto ISO, I will check later if it was set to 800 out of the box
AS for the metering - I tried all :) But I believe the best results came out from Center-weighted average, as Northstar has suggested.

so the camera, if it's reading lots of floor, and will underexpose to get it down to 18% gray...  it almost makes perfect sense...  AV may be dicey depending on the min shutter speed set and high ISO set...  TV would be more predictable when shutter speed is needed... then you can set exposure comp...
thanks awinphoto, this really makes sense! I will try TV mode and also catchin less floor the next time. Now that I look at the photos, the ones with more floor are worse! and will also take into consideration the shutterspeed for the inconsistent lighting, as some have suggested

Hey, Пламене,
Congratulations on the 5D3! ...
Зала Универсиада не се е променила много. Играех там баскетбол като ученик/студент преди да емигрирам. Тъмно място.
Успех!

Здрасти, Течо :)

Наистина е доста тъмна залата. Трябва да видиш новата зала Арена Армеец, доста е добра за тукашните стандарти :) Ти къде си играл докато беше тук

Again, thank you so much everyone, I will experiment and will let you know what the results are:)
Title: Re: My brand new 5D Mark III - what am I doing wrong, please help!
Post by: unadog on December 15, 2012, 12:05:38 PM
within a week it was back, with the under-exposure corrected, albeit with about 6,000 exposures added to the count!

I doubt that they took that many images.

If you take a card from Camera A, that had 10,000 total images taken, and put it into Camera B that has only 10 images, the next file number on Camera B, the "10 image camera", will be 10,001.

If you want a lower image number, just reset the internal counter to "0".  On the menu, under Image Numbering, just select "Manual Reset", then leave it at "Continuous" like it was.   It will start over again with 00001. 

That will not affect tools like eoscount.com that can tell how many total images the camera has taken. Or if you put all of your images in Lightroom, you can just see how many total images you have there.
Title: Re: My brand new 5D Mark III - what am I doing wrong, please help!
Post by: unadog on December 15, 2012, 12:11:33 PM
I dial in +2/3 stops on ALL Of my cameras, and leave it there 95% of the time.

That is true on my Canon T4i, 5DIII, 1DX, and on the Nikon D3200 and Sony NEX 5n that I have owned this year.

Same on them all to push the histogram to the right. I shoot RAW+JPEG anyway and adjust in post, but you want to make use of the right hand of the histogram , as there is more total "data" for you to work with in post.

Someone else mentioned that in passing as "Shoot to the Right."


There is also a Canon 44 page White Paper on the 1DX auto focus that also applies to the 5DIII that you should read.  It will help you understand all of the incredible tools you have for shooting sports with focus tracking, etc.


Have fun!  Great camera, lots of great tools, but it requires a bit of us on the back end.  8)

Title: Re: My brand new 5D Mark III - what am I doing wrong, please help!
Post by: Mt Spokane Photography on December 15, 2012, 06:17:24 PM
It's very likely that the lights in the arena are flickering and that you'll need a slower shutter speed to catch the whole cycle of flickering. Such is the case with a lot of indoor stadium lighting.

If you want to do it right, you'll need to install radio-triggered flashes in the overhead rafters. Assuming that's not an option, just use a lower shutter.

There's also no need for autoexposure indoors like this. The light isn't changing. If you can get there early enough to get a gray card meter reading and white balance from the court itself, lock in both manually. If not, spend the first few minutes fiddling with the exposure and manual white balance until the histogram (if shooting raw) or back-of-camera preview (if shooting JPEG) looks good. Be sure to shoot some bursts and compare shot-to-shot exposure and color...if there're visible changes, it's because the lighting sucks, and your only option is to keep slowing down the shutter.

And, yes...if you let the shutter get too slow, you'll get objectionable motion blur. That's why the proper answer is high-powered flashes. (And you can actually see such flashes regularly going off on TV broadcasts.)

Cheers,

b&

+1
 
This is a good description of the cause of your problem.  It happens frequently to users who try to use high shutter speeds and flickering lights.
The lights are flickering at 120 hertz, so use a shutter speed slower than 120 sec, or use a flash in the rafters.
You can also just take a lot of of shots and a few will be ok.
Title: Re: My brand new 5D Mark III - what am I doing wrong, please help!
Post by: RustyTheGeek on December 17, 2012, 11:00:12 PM
Mt. Spokane, it's 60Hz.  (That's the frequency.)  120 is the voltage.  So the shutter must stay below 1/60.  Impossible to do so the effect must be dealt with in post.

Here's a great write up on the issue...
http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=20873 (http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=20873)
Title: Re: My brand new 5D Mark III - what am I doing wrong, please help!
Post by: TAF on December 17, 2012, 11:40:20 PM
Mt. Spokane, it's 60Hz.  (That's the frequency.)  120 is the voltage.  So the shutter must stay below 1/60.  Impossible to do so the effect must be dealt with in post.

Here's a great write up on the issue...
http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=20873 (http://www.sportsshooter.com/message_display.html?tid=20873)


While the power line frequency in the US is 60 Hz, the blink rate IS 120 Hz.

The definition of one cycle is when the voltage starts from zero, goes to a peak, then back through zero to a peak in the opposite direction and then back to zero.  Thus the light starts at off, goes to a maximum, goes off again, then goes to another maximum (then back to off, but that last off is the start of the next cycle).  Hence the light blinks twice per cycle.

Incandescent lamps don't blink badly because the filament doesn't have time to cool sufficiently between peaks, while fluorescents and discharge lamps do have time to cut off.

LED's (the future) may or may not blink depending on the power supply they have.  LED's run on DC (which shouldn't blink), but some of the power supplies are simply AC rectified (all the humps are on one side of zero), which on average looks like DC, but which to a fast acting LED is (again) 120 peaks per second.

At 1/60 shutter speed you should get you a full exposure.  1/125 could get you 1/2 of what you want, if the capture takes place around the zero crossing.

Title: Re: My brand new 5D Mark III - what am I doing wrong, please help!
Post by: bvukich on December 18, 2012, 01:33:32 AM
LED's (the future) may or may not blink depending on the power supply they have.  LED's run on DC (which shouldn't blink), but some of the power supplies are simply AC rectified (all the humps are on one side of zero), which on average looks like DC, but which to a fast acting LED is (again) 120 peaks per second.

You also have to watch out for LED Christmas lights, they usually only have a half wave rectifier, so you only have 60 peaks per second, and half of each cycle is at zero.
Title: Re: My brand new 5D Mark III - what am I doing wrong, please help!
Post by: bycostello on December 18, 2012, 02:39:17 AM
you are shooting manual....  so you need to change your shutter speed and or aperture...
Title: Re: My brand new 5D Mark III - what am I doing wrong, please help!
Post by: Martin on December 18, 2012, 03:48:14 AM
I had 5d2 and have 5d3 and those cameras underexpose permanently by ca. 1/2 EV, 2/3EV. I sent the 5d2 to the service and they stated that everything was ok, despite the fact I tested the cameras with wall against Sekonic external meter and a Nikon body.
Title: Re: My brand new 5D Mark III - what am I doing wrong, please help!
Post by: PeterJ on December 18, 2012, 05:08:39 AM
You probably know this, but metering is only on the center point and it's not tied to the selected focus point. Just mentioning it because looking at some of those images when I look at the dead center of each image I can sort of see how the camera might have come up with those exposures. Also after using a 550D maybe you are getting away with faster shutter speeds causing the 120Hz flicker metering problem a few others mentioned.

I don't do a lot of that style of photography but in my limited experience sometimes you're best to go for full manual. The real lighting probably won't change a lot so try a bit of 'chimping' on initial shots and dial in the ISO. While at high shutter speeds it won't solve the flicker entirely I think it should improve things.
Title: Re: My brand new 5D Mark III - what am I doing wrong, please help!
Post by: bchernicoff on December 18, 2012, 08:55:14 AM
you are shooting manual....  so you need to change your shutter speed and or aperture...

He says he was using Auto ISO, so the camera still meters and adjusts the ISO based on the calculated exposure.

I think he's dealing with a highly reflective floor and less reflective players. The camera is metering off light reflected from the floor.
Title: Re: My brand new 5D Mark III - what am I doing wrong, please help!
Post by: Northstar on December 18, 2012, 09:01:39 AM
I had 5d2 and have 5d3 and those cameras underexpose permanently by ca. 1/2 EV, 2/3EV. I sent the 5d2 to the service and they stated that everything was ok, despite the fact I tested the cameras with wall against Sekonic external meter and a Nikon body.

martin...I share the same opinion - about 1/2 EV
Title: Re: My brand new 5D Mark III - what am I doing wrong, please help!
Post by: TAF on December 20, 2012, 02:39:29 PM
LED's (the future) may or may not blink depending on the power supply they have.  LED's run on DC (which shouldn't blink), but some of the power supplies are simply AC rectified (all the humps are on one side of zero), which on average looks like DC, but which to a fast acting LED is (again) 120 peaks per second.

You also have to watch out for LED Christmas lights, they usually only have a half wave rectifier, so you only have 60 peaks per second, and half of each cycle is at zero.


Thank you for that warning, I didn't know that (although I suppose I am not surprised).

I run a number of LED lights around the house, and use 'wallwart' power supplies to supply them.  I make certain that the supplies are regulated DC to both protect the LED's (which still aren't cheap), and to avoid all these issues.

Title: Re: My brand new 5D Mark III - what am I doing wrong, please help!
Post by: helpful on December 20, 2012, 03:28:55 PM
There's some bad advice being given here.

If you use manual exposure [begin edit] in situations like this[end edit], make sure auto ISO is turned off. When you are shooting from slightly above the court, as you are, the floor (and advertising signs) will reflect light into your camera's light meter. When your lens is pointed towards the floor, your light meter will read at least two stops brighter than the subjects actually are. If there is some dark in the background to make up for the floor, the meter reading won't be quite as bad. When auto ISO is turned on, your camera changes the ISO to obtain what it thinks is proper exposure, so all your work with shutter speed and aperture is undone.

Exposure compensation doesn't help a lot either, because as you are tracking your subject, the background changes with every shot, but your exposure actually should change only slightly, depending on whether they are in mid-court or near the basket facing towards the darker perimeter of the stadium. But the exposure definitely shouldn't change based on the background, but on the subject.

My manual exposure settings for an average Division I gym using the 135mm f/2 are about like this:

Fixed ISO 2,000
f/2.2
1/1000th
Picture Style Contrast set to very low (next to the leftmost setting)
If possible, use a manual white balance reading taken from a gray card positioned vertically slightly within the 3 point line and facing the basket. You need to catch some reflection from the floor as well as direct illumination from the lights. Ideally, the card should represent the light reflected from a player's face and eyes as they are moving the ball towards the basket or shooting. If the lights are flickering, then you need to use a time value under 1/15th of a second to get a perfect white balance reading that avoids the red/brown or other color shifts. But when I am actually shooting the game, I do not force myself to use a slow shutter speed. Go ahead and shoot fast enough to stop action, which at the very minimum is 1/500th of a second. I virtually always keep it at 1/800th or higher. Even if 2/3rds of your photos have a terrible color cast, the the other 1/3rd of them will be fine, and it is better for 1/3rd of them to be sharp and properly colored than for none of them to be sharp because of motion blur.

For darker gyms, light quickly goes down by a factor of five. That's when I would go down to 1/500th and ISO 5,000 if there is also color casting happening, or just go up to ISO 10,000 if there's not.

A few gyms are actually one stop brighter than the case mentioned above, and so I would use that as an opportunity to bump aperture, ISO, and shutter speed each by a notch to f/2.5, 1600, and 1/1250th.

** One other thing, when I'm taking pictures of coaches, players standing there, and whatever isn't action, I have a separate body with either a 300mm or 70-200 lens on it, and in that case, I definitely will use a slower shutter speed, like 1/200th, if there is any chance of color casting, to make sure that my photos don't have that color problem. But for action, the weird colors on some shots are just something to live with, because slowing down the shutter speed would only blur their faces too much. **

Title: Re: My brand new 5D Mark III - what am I doing wrong, please help!
Post by: bchernicoff on December 20, 2012, 03:40:53 PM
There's some bad advice being given here.

If you use manual exposure, make sure auto ISO is turned off. When auto ISO is turned on, your camera changes the ISO to obtain what it thinks is proper exposure, so all your work with shutter speed and aperture is undone.

I disagree. There are times when manual + auto iso is the way to go. If you want to set a fast shutter AND control depth of field AND have the camera meter... auto iso is the way to go.

Real world example: I was shooting a pro motocross race. I set a specific shutter speed that balances motion blur with stopping action. I set aperture to 5.6 (on 70-200 f/2.8 IS II) because it's outdoors with hills and crowds in the background and I don't want them blurred to nothing. Also the extra depth of field helps fudge focusing accuracy on fast moving riders. In some areas they move from open track to the shade under trees causing the lighting on them to change, so I used Auto ISO to allow the camera to meter and expose them correctly. It worked like a champ.
Title: Re: My brand new 5D Mark III - what am I doing wrong, please help!
Post by: helpful on December 20, 2012, 04:08:49 PM
There's some bad advice being given here.

If you use manual exposure, make sure auto ISO is turned off. When auto ISO is turned on, your camera changes the ISO to obtain what it thinks is proper exposure, so all your work with shutter speed and aperture is undone.

I disagree. There are times when manual + auto iso is the way to go. If you want to set a fast shutter AND control depth of field AND have the camera meter... auto iso is the way to go.

Real world example: I was shooting a pro motocross race. I set a specific shutter speed that balances motion blur with stopping action. I set aperture to 5.6 (on 70-200 f/2.8 IS II) because it's outdoors with hills and crowds in the background and I don't want them blurred to nothing. Also the extra depth of field helps fudge focusing accuracy on fast moving riders. In some areas they move from open track to the shade under trees causing the lighting on them to change, so I used Auto ISO to allow the camera to meter and expose them correctly. It worked like a champ.

It depends on the background. If you're shooting against bright walls or dark stadiums interspersed with flashy advertising, then auto ISO is going to mess up the whole point of using manual exposure to get the right exposure.

If you are trying to have precisely the right shutter speed to track a vehicle while also conveying its motion, and exactly the right aperture for being able to have the crowd blurred just the right amount, then yes, auto ISO is good.

I should have been more clear that I didn't mean to always turn off auto ISO whenever manual exposure is being used.
Title: Re: My brand new 5D Mark III - what am I doing wrong, please help!
Post by: bchernicoff on December 20, 2012, 04:10:16 PM
I should have been more clear that I didn't mean to always turn off auto ISO whenever manual exposure is being used.

I figured that's what you meant, I just wanted anyone reading to realize that it has its place.
Title: Re: My brand new 5D Mark III - what am I doing wrong, please help!
Post by: Enrico on December 20, 2012, 04:46:47 PM

And another thing worth pointing out (that you praobably knew) is that the DOF - Depth of Field gets alot narrower on a FF like 5D3 than on a crop body.

When I moved to the 5D3 I was dissapointed with the wide open shots in the beginning not being sharp... but if I looked closely I could see where the focus was :)

IE. I had to start paying more attention on where I put the focus (than on the crop body) AND I had to AFMA all my lenses. 135/f2 not tuned perfect to your new body will give images out of focus on f2.

You might also have had the settings on your crop body JPEGs being boosted with brightness, contrast, sharpnes etc whereas you don't have that on the 5D3 as of now.

Title: Re: My brand new 5D Mark III - what am I doing wrong, please help!
Post by: Kernuak on December 20, 2012, 05:31:31 PM

And another thing worth pointing out (that you praobably knew) is that the DOF - Depth of Field gets alot narrower on a FF like 5D3 than on a crop body.

Actually, that's only true if you have the same field of view, because then you are either using a longer focal length or are closer than if you were using a crop sensor camera. If you are standing in the same place with the same lens (which is likely in a gym/sports arena), then full frame actually has greater depth of field.