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Rumors => Lenses => Topic started by: Canon Rumors on December 16, 2012, 05:35:59 PM

Title: Patent: A New Canon EF 50 f/1.2 & Suggestion of a Full Frame Mirrorless?
Post by: Canon Rumors on December 16, 2012, 05:35:59 PM
New Canon 50 f/1.2
A new patent has surfaced that shows a new design for an EF 50 f/1.2 lens. The current 50L has somewhat of a mixed reputation due to some focus shift.

Also shown is potentially a 50 f/2 for a full frame mirrorless camera as it mentions a 22mm back focus distance. Keith at [NL] is reading the patent that way, and that interpretation looks plausible. If anyone is better at reading and interpreting the patent than we are, please let us know.

Source: [EG] via [NL]

cr

Title: Re: Patent: A New Canon EF 50 f/1.2 & Suggestion of a Full Frame Mirrorless?
Post by: Don Haines on December 16, 2012, 05:43:28 PM
ohh!!! ohh!!! ohh!!! Full frame mirrorless!!!!! with a new focus technology, 4K video, wireless, gps, an articulated touchscreen, and a nikon lens adaptor so we can all get excited... but no pop-up flash.... you just have to draw the line somewhere!
Title: Re: Patent: A New Canon EF 50 f/1.2 & Suggestion of a Full Frame Mirrorless?
Post by: Woody on December 16, 2012, 06:22:34 PM
Full frame mirrorless? Wow, wow, wow!!! That will simply DESTROY all competition
Title: Re: Patent: A New Canon EF 50 f/1.2 & Suggestion of a Full Frame Mirrorless?
Post by: Dylan777 on December 16, 2012, 06:31:19 PM
FULL FRAME MIRRORLESS.......I say 2014 :P
Title: Re: Patent: A New Canon EF 50 f/1.2 & Suggestion of a Full Frame Mirrorless?
Post by: RGomezPhotos on December 16, 2012, 06:54:08 PM
Okay..  Can someone inform me why full frame-mirrorless would be a good thing?  Since I only really care about DSLRs, I don't bother keeping up with the benefits of mirrorless cameras...
Title: Re: Patent: A New Canon EF 50 f/1.2 & Suggestion of a Full Frame Mirrorless?
Post by: Zlatko on December 16, 2012, 07:09:44 PM
Okay..  Can someone inform me why full frame-mirrorless would be a good thing?  Since I only really care about DSLRs, I don't bother keeping up with the benefits of mirrorless cameras...
The delightful thing about mirrorless cameras is that they are usually smaller and lighter — those are the key benefits.  There is no need for a mirror box, so the lens can be closer to the sensor.  And this means that all of the lenses can be smaller.  Just look at the full frame mirrorless cameras, the Leica M, M9, M9P, MM and Sony RX1, and see how wonderfully small they are for full frame cameras.  If Canon can deliver a full frame mirrorless in a Leica M-sized body, with autofocus interchangeable lenses and a high quality viewfinder, it will be of great interest to many photographers who desire a high quality camera in a small package.  Of course, it could a be mirrorless in a DSLR-sized body, like the Sony A99, and then most of the size & weight advantage lost.
Title: Re: Patent: A New Canon EF 50 f/1.2 & Suggestion of a Full Frame Mirrorless?
Post by: pdirestajr on December 16, 2012, 07:40:32 PM
I hear focusing speed on Canon's "mirrorless" cameras are groundbreaking.
Title: Re: Patent: A New Canon EF 50 f/1.2 & Suggestion of a Full Frame Mirrorless?
Post by: verysimplejason on December 16, 2012, 07:49:08 PM
Also the good thing with mirror-less cameras is that there's no mirror so there's nothing slapping back and forth when taking pictures and this means more stability.  This is aside from the fact that you can use smaller lens.  It's easier to handheld a mirrorless camera even at low shutter speed as against a DSLR set at the same focal length and shutter speed.  Also with the smaller lens, a larger aperture than what's existing now is even possible and possibly cheaper to implement.
Title: Re: Patent: A New Canon EF 50 f/1.2 & Suggestion of a Full Frame Mirrorless?
Post by: dr croubie on December 16, 2012, 07:51:41 PM
I hear focusing speed on Canon's "mirrorless" cameras are groundbreaking.

"Groundbreaking" on a geological timescale? As in the time it's taking in Africa's Rift Valley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Rift_Valley_%28geographical_concept%29) for the Ground to Break and split the continent in two?
I hear the EOS M focusses about that fast...


But I'll be happy for any FF Mirrorless that is $2000-3000 with interchangeable lenses, and doesn't have that $4000 worth of Leica-Badge on the front...
Title: Re: Patent: A New Canon EF 50 f/1.2 & Suggestion of a Full Frame Mirrorless?
Post by: verysimplejason on December 16, 2012, 07:52:56 PM
I hear focusing speed on Canon's "mirrorless" cameras are groundbreaking.

I've used the EOS M camera and found the focusing through button very slow.  However, focusing through the touch screen is the ground-breaking one.  It is decently fast enough.  You should try it sometime.  It's just like the 650D in regards to this.
Title: Re: Patent: A New Canon EF 50 f/1.2 & Suggestion of a Full Frame Mirrorless?
Post by: Stone on December 16, 2012, 09:07:24 PM
I'd love for Canon to do this, but the first company to pull it off with decent (no need for pro-level) autofocus will get my money.  My eventual goal is a relatively compact FF mirrorless for general all-round shooting combined with a 7D or 7DII for sports and action.  I think it would be the perfect combo.  :D

Title: Re: Patent: A New Canon EF 50 f/1.2 & Suggestion of a Full Frame Mirrorless?
Post by: Woody on December 16, 2012, 10:06:08 PM
Thought more about it. Instead of FF mirrorless, it may well be a fixed lens camera, like the RX1. If it's a fixed lens camera, AF speed should not be an issue. So, we may see a battle between Sony 35 mm f/2 FF compact and Canon 50 mm f/2 FF compact.
Title: Re: Patent: A New Canon EF 50 f/1.2 & Suggestion of a Full Frame Mirrorless?
Post by: EdB on December 16, 2012, 10:19:31 PM
Thought more about it. Instead of FF mirrorless, it may well be a fixed lens camera, like the RX1. If it's a fixed lens camera, AF speed should not be an issue. So, we may see a battle between Sony 35 mm f/2 FF compact and Canon 50 mm f/2 FF compact.

Canon has never really played to THAT small a niche customer. There are rumors of a FF NEX coming out and I think that is where they are going. I'd like to see this camera do away with the AA filter and have extreme detail and sharpness.
Title: Re: Patent: A New Canon EF 50 f/1.2 & Suggestion of a Full Frame Mirrorless?
Post by: ronderick on December 16, 2012, 10:26:44 PM
I think FF mirrorless is probably on every camera company's agenda, but I doubt the technology/production cost is feasible at this point. It took two years to see Sony send in the RX-1 after the X100 (from APS-C fixed compact to FF compact).

I doubt many people is willing to stomach a 3000-dollar RX-1 anyways, let alone a FF mirrorless from any company (aside from Leica). Also, that means another line of FF mirrorless lenses...*shiver*
Title: Re: Patent: A New Canon EF 50 f/1.2 & Suggestion of a Full Frame Mirrorless?
Post by: pwp on December 16, 2012, 10:30:53 PM
Okay..  Can someone inform me why full frame-mirrorless would be a good thing?  Since I only really care about DSLRs, I don't bother keeping up with the benefits of mirrorless cameras...

DSLR design is mature and beautifully familiar. But as a design which has it's roots in the SLR film bodies from 60 or so years ago, it comes with limitations....like that flapping mirror! So as to ensure a quick take-up of DSLR cameras during the transition time 10-12 years ago, marketing & boardroom decisions were made to make the transition as smooth as practical from SLR film bodies to DSLR, so continuing with the familiar form-factor came to pass. Coming from EOS-1 film bodies to the original EOS 1D & 1Ds delivered a form factor that was instantly familiar and quick to get working with. The new bodies took our existing glass and had major controls in the same places.

Fast forward a dozen years to 2012, a year where we have seen an explosion of mirrorless releases. The digital market penetration has been complete for years now. The market is now ready for new form factors which better suit the realities of digital image capture. Mirrorless is the future. Some of the early releases have been a bit hit and miss, but it's still early days. Expect the mirrorless market to mature very rapidly to a point where the DSLR form factor will be regarded as vintage sooner than you might expect.

I don't necessarily expect a FF pro level M camera to be a great deal smaller than my current 1-Series bodies. Once necessary ergonomic, EVF/hybrid viewfinders, AF speed etc have been satisfactorily delivered, there will be no stopping the M revolution...consigning the lovely old DSLR to history.

-PW
Title: Re: Patent: A New Canon EF 50 f/1.2 & Suggestion of a Full Frame Mirrorless?
Post by: preppyak on December 16, 2012, 10:58:47 PM
Also, that means another line of FF mirrorless lenses...*shiver*
Yeah, thats really the piece that makes this technology pretty far off. To actually release a full-frame mirrorless camera with all the lens options a pro would want (fast zooms, primes, tilt-shifts, super teles, etc), it'd take them years to fill out the line. Even if they release the body in the next year, it's probably 3-4yrs down the line until its a viable option as a system. That also assumes 3rd party manufacturers get behind it, otherwise it's probably 5-6yrs
Title: Re: Patent: A New Canon EF 50 f/1.2 & Suggestion of a Full Frame Mirrorless?
Post by: RS2021 on December 17, 2012, 12:07:50 AM
About time! ;)
Title: Re: Patent: A New Canon EF 50 f/1.2 & Suggestion of a Full Frame Mirrorless?
Post by: Stone on December 17, 2012, 12:47:19 AM
Also, that means another line of FF mirrorless lenses...*shiver*
Yeah, thats really the piece that makes this technology pretty far off. To actually release a full-frame mirrorless camera with all the lens options a pro would want (fast zooms, primes, tilt-shifts, super teles, etc), it'd take them years to fill out the line. Even if they release the body in the next year, it's probably 3-4yrs down the line until its a viable option as a system. That also assumes 3rd party manufacturers get behind it, otherwise it's probably 5-6yrs

I somewhat agree, but you also have to look at the players.  Once potential sales dictates that one of the big players (not a niche player like Leica) push the platform forward, lenses will come fairly rapidly.  If Canon or Nikon jumps on the FF mirrorless bandwagon, the 3rd party lens makers won't be far behind.  Lenses are slow going in the mirrorless market right now because DSLR and DSLR lens sales are still what keeps the lights on.

There's currently no need to aggressively produce a ton of mirrorless lenses.  That would change quickly of one of those companies managed to produce a high demand FF mirrorless.  I agree it could be 5-6 years before they were ubiquitous but alot sooner for a fairly complete kit with the exception of superteles which I think will always remain a niche.
Title: Re: Patent: A New Canon EF 50 f/1.2 & Suggestion of a Full Frame Mirrorless?
Post by: dr croubie on December 17, 2012, 01:00:01 AM
Also, that means another line of FF mirrorless lenses...*shiver*
Yeah, thats really the piece that makes this technology pretty far off. To actually release a full-frame mirrorless camera with all the lens options a pro would want (fast zooms, primes, tilt-shifts, super teles, etc), it'd take them years to fill out the line. Even if they release the body in the next year, it's probably 3-4yrs down the line until its a viable option as a system. That also assumes 3rd party manufacturers get behind it, otherwise it's probably 5-6yrs

Or for a comparison: Look at EF-s.
When digital APS-C first started coming out around the D30/10D time, there was no such thing as EF-s. You needed to buy a ridiculously expensive (compared to an EF-s kit lens nowadays at least) 16-35L or 17-40L, even a 20-35mm wasn't particularly wide on crop.
The first EF-s kit lenses, I'm looking at you, EF-s 18-55 non-IS mk1, weren't worth the box they shipped them in.

Flash forward what, 5-10 years, and now look. EF-s 15-85 IS is a great travel zoom, 17-55 f/2.8 IS is a great indoor zoom, EF-s 10-22, Tokina 11-16, Sigma 8-16 all provide great über-wide options in their niches. Even the latest 18-55 IS kit lens is worth the money (granted, it's not much money).

How long did that take? First EF-s body was 300D, August 2003.
EF-s 10-22 was probably the most pressing *need* of the new system, that was 2004 sometime.
EF-s 17-55/2.8 as the 'fast zoom' came out in 2006.
EF-s 15-85 as the '24mm equiv. wide zoom' came out in 2009 with the 7D.

So those three together make up the best 3 of the crop line lenses thus far, and it only took them what, 6 years to get those three together? SigRonKina have certainly helped prod things along by providing competition, especially in the über-wide segment.


Still, if we see a FF Mirrorless from canon, my bet is that the first will be in a DSLR body without a mirror (i've got a post elsewhere here (http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=11077) that explains why FF and Short Back Focus = bad for digital). But if/when they work out the kinks and give us a 20-35mm Flange-mount FF Mirrorless, they'll be relying on people using their existing EF lenses on adapter for a few more years yet while they gradually fill out the line-up with dedicated (read: smaller, not necessarily cheaper) short-mount lenses.
Title: Re: Patent: A New Canon EF 50 f/1.2 & Suggestion of a Full Frame Mirrorless?
Post by: Area256 on December 17, 2012, 01:02:32 AM
Skeptical, but that would be a dream come true for a lot of people - myself included.

They wouldn't need to have a lot of lenses either.  A fast 35mm and 50mm would make most people happy to start.  No point in making zooms or super teles, or tilt-shifts, etc, they are all so big when made for FF (even if designed for mirror-less) they defeat the advantage of mirror-less.  Just use them adapted if you must.

Then they could add a semi-fast 24mm, 85mm, 100mm, and maybe a 16mm or 20mm, and they'd be set for lenses.

Ideally I'd have a nice DSLR to use with large lenses when needed, and carry a mirror-less FF with a 35mm or 50mm at all other times.  I don't think it would hurt the high-end DSRL market (can you see a pro with a 70-200mm f/2.8 on a small body?).  And it'll be priced so high that it wound't hurt the rebel market either.

Overall I see FF mirror-less as a niche market at best, mostly as a second camera for pros, and people with money (but not Leica money) who want the best quality possible without the size of DSLR.

Having said that, I'm still skeptical...  And Sony is likely to get to market first.   Also Canon's AF would need to be improved a lot before it would be taken seriously.
Title: Re: Patent: A New Canon EF 50 f/1.2 & Suggestion of a Full Frame Mirrorless?
Post by: Viggo on December 17, 2012, 02:34:33 AM
There's a new patent for upgrading the 50 L, and all people talk about are mirrorless??!!

Perhaps the world IS coming to an end....
Title: Re: Patent: A New Canon EF 50 f/1.2 & Suggestion of a Full Frame Mirrorless?
Post by: Nishi Drew on December 17, 2012, 04:20:55 AM
There's a new patent for upgrading the 50 L, and all people talk about are mirrorless??!!

Perhaps the world IS coming to an end....

Haha, "...the world IS coming..." as in Image Stabilization I get it, because Canon has decided on sticking IS in everything and using that as an excuse to somehow push the price to level insane, and most aren't even L !!

Ok but seriously, I too am more interested in the possibility of a new 50L, it'll have to be one incredible upgrade to the current one though, even with better sharpness and no focus shift, if it'll be more expensive then what, full sealing, 'better' bokeh, faster focusing? It still won't beat the Sigma for it's price and near identical image it produces... but that's not the point, sometimes that red ring makes all the difference
Title: Re: Patent: A New Canon EF 50 f/1.2 & Suggestion of a Full Frame Mirrorless?
Post by: Ellen Schmidtee on December 17, 2012, 05:41:47 AM
Also, that means another line of FF mirrorless lenses...*shiver*
Yeah, thats really the piece that makes this technology pretty far off. To actually release a full-frame mirrorless camera with all the lens options a pro would want (fast zooms, primes, tilt-shifts, super teles, etc), it'd take them years to fill out the line. Even if they release the body in the next year, it's probably 3-4yrs down the line until its a viable option as a system. That also assumes 3rd party manufacturers get behind it, otherwise it's probably 5-6yrs

The whole point with a mirrorless is it's small size, which makes big lenses - such as super teles - pointless.

So I think the FF mirrorless' line of lenses would be small, say primes from wide up to ~100mm & couple of fast zooms in same focal range.
Title: Re: Patent: A New Canon EF 50 f/1.2 & Suggestion of a Full Frame Mirrorless?
Post by: EchoLocation on December 17, 2012, 05:42:40 AM
If Canon, Nikon or Sony make a reasonably priced(under 3000 dollars) FF mirrorless option about the size of a Leica or smaller, I would be all over it, regardless of whether there was a full system ready.
I would be confident that if any of these three companies released such a camera with a new lens mount that future lenses would follow. As long as they had a 24mm, or 35mm, or a zoom in the range of 24-70ish I would buy it without worrying about the overall system.
i believe that A LOT of other people feel this way.
If the RX1 simply had a removable lens, and the lens was the same Zeiss 35mm F2, I would have bought it already, even if it was the only lens available at the moment.
Title: Re: Patent: A New Canon EF 50 f/1.2 & Suggestion of a Full Frame Mirrorless?
Post by: Stuart on December 17, 2012, 05:59:30 AM
High speed flash sync AND high frame rates :-)
Title: Re: Patent: A New Canon EF 50 f/1.2 & Suggestion of a Full Frame Mirrorless?
Post by: SjoerdB on December 17, 2012, 06:11:16 AM
For reference, you can find the original patent application here: http://nawaphotography.web.fc2.com/etc/JPA_2012247451.pdf (http://nawaphotography.web.fc2.com/etc/JPA_2012247451.pdf) and the machine translation at the site of the Japanese patent office (http://www4.ipdl.inpit.go.jp/Tokujitu/tjsogodben.ipdl?N0000=115 (http://www4.ipdl.inpit.go.jp/Tokujitu/tjsogodben.ipdl?N0000=115)  search for A 2012-247451).

Assuming a 24x36mm sensor, a lens should produce an image circle with a radius of 21.63mm.
Interestingly, all four examples mention an "image height (像高)" of 21.64 mm.
I guess this number is what indicates that all four examples are for full frame.

Now keep in mind that the patent application was filed 2011-05-25, i.e. more than a year before the launch date of the EOS M. It could well be that the lens calculations were done before the decision to NOT make a full-frame mirrorless was taken.
Title: Re: Patent: A New Canon EF 50 f/1.2 & Suggestion of a Full Frame Mirrorless?
Post by: bycostello on December 17, 2012, 06:20:08 AM
Full frame mirrorless? Wow, wow, wow!!! That will simply DESTROY all competition

+1
Title: Re: Patent: A New Canon EF 50 f/1.2 & Suggestion of a Full Frame Mirrorless?
Post by: ddashti on December 17, 2012, 07:02:51 AM
Seems like Canon is updating their current 50mm line. Might as well do the f/1.8, too!
Title: Re: Patent: A New Canon EF 50 f/1.2 & Suggestion of a Full Frame Mirrorless?
Post by: Haydn1971 on December 17, 2012, 08:01:52 AM
Not convinced yet - BF on the Japanese page is listed at 28mm, so it's just as likely to be a standard EF lens too

Given the current thinking, I'm imagining a 50mm f2.0 IS in a similar style to the 24/28/35mm lenses, no more, no less....  Except perhaps a 50mm f2.0 EF-M

As for the 50mm f1.8 - that will carry on regardless with crappy build, great in low light and a very low price.
Title: Re: Patent: A New Canon EF 50 f/1.2 & Suggestion of a Full Frame Mirrorless?
Post by: RS2021 on December 17, 2012, 08:05:02 AM
Canon's strong suit is their existing lens lineup....The inevitable move to mirrorless (whenever that is, i didn't say next tuesday) will not leave this valuable per existing asset of lenses behind. Even if near term we see M mounts and other varieties, to diversify and saturate the market to gain revenue, longer term, Canon will likely harmonize these platforms around established EF lens lineup.

I don't know what the exact contours or mechanics of such a platform would be, but I think it is highly likely.
Title: Re: Patent: A New Canon EF 50 f/1.2 & Suggestion of a Full Frame Mirrorless?
Post by: Dylan777 on December 17, 2012, 08:07:03 AM
Okay..  Can someone inform me why full frame-mirrorless would be a good thing?  Since I only really care about DSLRs, I don't bother keeping up with the benefits of mirrorless cameras...

If you travel from US to Asia 4-6 times a year, you will see why I want FF mirrorless - travel friendly and cleaner images under low light are the keys of this monster. AF speed is not important when you do landscape and still shooting.
Title: Re: Patent: A New Canon EF 50 f/1.2 & Suggestion of a Full Frame Mirrorless?
Post by: facedodge on December 17, 2012, 08:20:43 AM
I think they could go faster than f/2 on a 50 for full frame mirrorless. Couldn't they match Leica's 50 f/1.4?

(http://www.kenrockwell.com/leica/images/m9/m9-1200.jpg)
Title: Re: Patent: A New Canon EF 50 f/1.2 & Suggestion of a Full Frame Mirrorless?
Post by: Greenmeenie on December 17, 2012, 10:13:14 AM
The smartphones with their improving cameras have killed the point & shoot market. It's only a matter of time before they start affecting the low end DSLR market. Some may laugh, but the writing is on the wall. Nokia recently announced a smartphone with a 41 megapixel camera! The line is blurring. Can you imagine what smartphone cameras will be able to do In 5 years time? They will be even more amazing. Super detail. Sallow DOF. Incredible low light capabilities. So canon and the others have to start making the move now.

FF and FF mirror less will be the norm for dslrs in the future.

They will also have to add more social networking, wifi integration to dslrs too.

It's happening folks.

Title: Re: Patent: A New Canon EF 50 f/1.2 & Suggestion of a Full Frame Mirrorless?
Post by: mrmarks on December 17, 2012, 10:24:38 AM
The 50L 1.2 design doesn't seem to have a floating element. Wonder how this will be better than the current 50L 1.2
Title: Re: Patent: A New Canon EF 50 f/1.2 & Suggestion of a Full Frame Mirrorless?
Post by: facedodge on December 17, 2012, 11:28:10 AM
Better phone editing software has a great deal to do with it. There have been a few shots that have fooled me with the blur tool on instagram. If you compose it right, you can simulate a shot with a fast lens. There are limitations, you have to work with a circle or bar, and you can't adjust the amount of blur. I'm sure they will have a paint blur with your fingers tool soon.
Title: Re: Patent: A New Canon EF 50 f/1.2 & Suggestion of a Full Frame Mirrorless?
Post by: Caps18 on December 17, 2012, 12:31:27 PM
Maybe a 50mm f/1.2 IS?   ;D

I will be buying a 50mm f/1.2 next year sometime probably, so I will be interested in knowing if this new one will be better somehow.  I've used the current 50mm f/1.2 and liked it a lot.
Title: Re: Patent: A New Canon EF 50 f/1.2 & Suggestion of a Full Frame Mirrorless?
Post by: sandymandy on December 17, 2012, 02:58:09 PM
If you travel from US to Asia 4-6 times a year...


...why dont you just buy a Leica M? :P Flying that often sure is expensive. Getting to the airport and everything adds up.

@ mobiles will kill low end DSLR market


i dont think so unless we can get APS-C or FF sized sensors in the mobile. and full control about shutter etc. and also be able to change lenses cuz thats why u buy a DSLR.
Title: Re: Patent: A New Canon EF 50 f/1.2 & Suggestion of a Full Frame Mirrorless?
Post by: RLPhoto on December 17, 2012, 05:08:49 PM
I would buy a 50L II but the FF mirrorless is also very tempting. I still wouldn't buy a first gen electronic product though.