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Rumors => EOS Bodies => Topic started by: Radiating on December 20, 2012, 11:58:16 PM

Title: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Radiating on December 20, 2012, 11:58:16 PM
I'm writing this post mainly to criticize Canon for it's recent outrageous pricing policies, and to simply say that they cannot keep doing what they are doing.

I was one of the first people to support Canon's new higher pricing due to the yen/dollar conversion, which in a way justified it, but now Canon seems to be actively trying to destabilize the market for their gear and alienate all of their customers.

The specific issue I am talking about are the huge price cuts and markups on their older and newer bodies.

Let's talk the last 3 months because this is the most relevant time frame.

3 months ago, buying a new 5D Mark III for $3400 was a bargain, and buying a new 5D Mark II for $2050 was a bargain, and buying a T4i for $750 was a bargain. So I got my 5DIII & 5D II (but waited on the t4i)

How much are these cameras worth 3 months later? $2500, $1300, & $480, and I picked up a new T4i for $480 today.

That's  $1920. Gone in 3 months. In depreciation. On $6000 of cameras.

Let's compare Nikon on the other hand. 3 months ago, the D800 new for $2800 was a bargain, now it's a bargain for $2450. With the Nikon D700, 3 months ago it went for $1650, now it's $1550, the D7000 went for $860, 3 months ago and now it's $780.

That's only $520 in depreciation. Which is nearly 4 times less than $1920.

Wow.

This means I could theoretically own nearly 12 Nikon bodies for what it costs to own 3 Canon ones with their new insane mark ups and mark downs.

Why is Canon seemingly actively screwing over it's buyers with insane price cuts, and equally insane introductory mark ups? The only reason I can come up with is that they want to lose customers and lose credibility.

Considering this insanity, I just don't feel comfortable buying any Canon gear any more. Based on this trend, the 24-70mm Mark II should hit $1600 by March, and then it's perfectly believable that when the 24-70mm f/4.0 IS Macro comes out, the 24-105mm which now sells for $750 will be sold for $520 within weeks or months from now. The 35mm f/2.0 IS which I was also interested in which goes for $849.99 now should go for $499 in March as well.

Canon may think themselves smart for playing pricing games, but they are trading brand loyalty and credibility for profit, which is not a sustainable strategy in the long run.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: robbymack on December 21, 2012, 12:04:20 AM
Did that make you feel better? 
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: nonac on December 21, 2012, 12:08:33 AM
I'm with you.  I could get my 5d Mk III kit $700-800 less today than I paid 5 months go.  That's a lot of money to me that i just threw away.  I feel like I basically gave a charitable contribution to Canon.  That won't happen again as I will no longer be an early adopter of anything they bring to market.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: fonts on December 21, 2012, 12:16:12 AM
Doesn't it come down to the fact that Canon can't MAKE a company sell their product to a specific price..
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: PackLight on December 21, 2012, 12:18:17 AM
It makes me sad to that I can save money by waiting a few months. Boo Hoo ... I'm sad I didn't buy as soon as it was released and pay more.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: ChilledXpress on December 21, 2012, 12:22:11 AM
You should be on the other thread "right now i am not happy to be a canon user" and you two can have a pitty party.  Booo hooo hooo hoo !!!!

Still stunned that people complain about spending their money. Damn Canon... they forced me to buy a great camera and now, months later, I don't like the price I paid because I couldn't wait. They screwed me!!!! Whaaaa whaaa... Adults make decisions about where to spend their money... you have no one to blame but yourself if you have buyer’s remorse. Unless you're 8 years old, then it really is mommy and daddys fault (sorry for your pain). If you can't afford the price of entry and it's a financial hardship... you shouldn't be spending money you don’t have.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Renegade Runner on December 21, 2012, 12:26:43 AM
Canon, like most companies markup their prices for those who must have the latest gadget first.  After those people are ripped off the prices slowly start to come down and are aimed at the consumers waiting for a deal.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Hobby Shooter on December 21, 2012, 12:27:21 AM
Ahh, finally someone dares to speak out. I got my 5D3 in May and have taken so far around 5000 pictures, I wish I hadn't taken those.

One question, what would you do with 12 Nikon bodies?
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Radiating on December 21, 2012, 12:39:11 AM
Did that make you feel better?

My primary income is from investments. I really have no personal feelings when it comes to taking a loss on something. It's business.

My point is simply that Canon is actively trying to screw over it's customers without lube with absurd and insulting markups.

I am simply pointing out facts, and giving both photographers and Canon business advice. Photography product sales are not driven by mark ups and mark downs, they are however driven by stability and trust. Once Canon starts to burn customers they may never see those customers return. Canon has very capable competition, and trust and stability may be all it takes to convert people.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: nonac on December 21, 2012, 12:40:45 AM
You should be on the other thread "right now i am not happy to be a canon user" and you two can have a pitty party.  Booo hooo hooo hoo !!!!

Still stunned that people complain about spending their money. Damn Canon... they forced me to buy a great camera and now, months later, I don't like the price I paid because I couldn't wait. They screwed me!!!! Whaaaa whaaa... Adults make decisions about where to spend their money... you have no one to blame but yourself if you have buyer’s remorse. If you can't afford the price of entry and it's a financial hardship... you shouldn't be spending money you don’t have.

I could afford what I paid, I even held out about 4 months after release to see if the price would move, it did not, so I bought it.  Then the price starts falling.  I could afford it, I just don't like wasting money that could have been spent on other gear.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: verysimplejason on December 21, 2012, 12:45:54 AM
Sometimes, it's also the first adopters fault.  I'm not saying Canon doesn't get any blame on why prices are not stable.  Law of supply and demand states that the more the demand, the higher the cost of the goods especially if supply can't cope up.  Well, it's a "sickness" actually.  It's very contagious.  I guess, if you really want good prices for Canon (as with non-Canon) gadgets and have it clean and bug-free, it's better to wait at least 3-6 months before buying one.  I always restrain myself on buying the "newest" and the "best" gadgets.  I had a policy for myself.  If I really want something, I must be prepared to wait.  Sometimes the urge just goes away after a night or two.  If even after 6 months the itch is still there then it means I really want it.  As of now, I'm really asking myself if I really want the 6D or the 5D3.  Sometimes, one look at my pictures and I reminded myself that it's not the camera that counts.  It's the man behind the camera.  I've got a lot of friends with newer cameras than my old 500D but they're always asking me why they can't get pictures that they wanted the way I got mine even with all their new gadgets.  I just told them that experience is irreplaceable.  Just take your camera and shoot irregardless if it's old or new.  The pleasure I get from photography is always from the feeling I get after viewing the pictures that I have taken and not after viewing the camera or lens that I used to take them.  I'm sorry but I'm always pissed at seeing people with better gadgets and yet they are still complaining.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: ChilledXpress on December 21, 2012, 12:47:00 AM
You should be on the other thread "right now i am not happy to be a canon user" and you two can have a pitty party.  Booo hooo hooo hoo !!!!

Still stunned that people complain about spending their money. Damn Canon... they forced me to buy a great camera and now, months later, I don't like the price I paid because I couldn't wait. They screwed me!!!! Whaaaa whaaa... Adults make decisions about where to spend their money... you have no one to blame but yourself if you have buyer’s remorse. If you can't afford the price of entry and it's a financial hardship... you shouldn't be spending money you don’t have.

I could afford what I paid, I even held out about 4 months after release to see if the price would move, it did not, so I bought it.  Then the price starts falling.  I could afford it, I just don't like wasting money that could have been spent on other gear.

Again... buyers remorse. You should have waited until the mark 7 comes out, then you can score a mark 3 for for under 500$ on Ebay... in 2022! What I don't understand is how this is a "new" thing for some here. Like you were totally unaware there will be a price drop... A search of the threads on this forum will show that even before a new version comes out someone is asking "How long until the price drops on model X?"

I bought a 7D in 2009... I'm soooo pissed at the current price!!! Canon is horrible to lower the price that much. I wasted sooo much money. If only I had waited 3 years. The reality is that I bought the camera new and have enjoyed every single moment with it during this time... I was NOT ripped off. I put on my big boy pants, bought the camera and went out and took photos. I knew exactly what I was doing and I did not open a thread complaing about how evil Canon marketing is. 

Take some solace in the fact that after the 21st you won’t have to wallow in the shame of spending more than you think you should have. Have a Happy Mayan New year!!!
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Orangutan on December 21, 2012, 12:49:36 AM
Adults make decisions about where to spend their money... you have no one to blame but yourself if you have buyer’s remorse.

+1

My primary income is from investments. I really have no personal feelings when it comes to taking a loss on something. It's business.

My point is simply that Canon is actively trying to screw over it's customers without lube with absurd and insulting markups.

How ironic: your income is from investments, yet you're upset with Canon for maximizing shareholder value.  The mind wobbles!
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: bigmag13 on December 21, 2012, 12:50:15 AM
wow, with that reasoning ( from OP) I should NOT have bought my 5D3 to shoot the gigs I did ( which for an event and wedding photog like myself, the best cam available is needed most times) and wait to save money so that I can buy TWO pro bodies.

hmm...

My math says that from July til now the 7 jobs kinda paid for it over 5 times.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: x-vision on December 21, 2012, 12:59:56 AM
I'm writing this post mainly to criticize Canon for it's recent outrageous pricing policies, and to simply say that they cannot keep doing what they are doing.

I think we all learned a lesson this year.

When the 5DIII was announced, there was a big outcry on the Internets that it was overpriced.
And yet, you went ahead and bought the 5DIII anyway.
Well, I feel that you got your fair warning - but you chose to ignore it.

Of course I also think that Canon's wacko pricing policy will backfire on them.
Looking forward, many more buyers will be choosing to wait for price drops rather than buying right away.
This will surely have some impact on Canon.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: ChilledXpress on December 21, 2012, 01:03:31 AM
wow, with that reasoning ( from OP) I should NOT have bought my 5D3 to shoot the gigs I did ( which for an event and wedding photog like myself, the best cam available is needed most times) and wait to save money so that I can buy TWO pro bodies.

hmm...

My math says that from July til now the 7 jobs kinda paid for it over 5 times.

Come on now... logic!!! Gobbledygook!!! I though I was the only one that uses a camera to make money. Sh*&# I love the price drop... and I bought my 5D3's early, made money and have moved on.

Did that make you feel better?

My primary income is from investments. I really have no personal feelings when it comes to taking a loss on something. It's business.

My point is simply that Canon is actively trying to screw over it's customers without lube with absurd and insulting markups.

I am simply pointing out facts, and giving both photographers and Canon business advice. Photography product sales are not driven by mark ups and mark downs, they are however driven by stability and trust. Once Canon starts to burn customers they may never see those customers return. Canon has very capable competition, and trust and stability may be all it takes to convert people.

"I really have no personal feelings when it comes to taking a loss on something." Riiiiiiiightt... I could tell you were a savy investment guy. It's buisness... Except with this rant on my purchase and Canon pricing. You seem to have made a poor investment with your purchase, you could'nt see that coming with all your investing experience...

Why help Canon now after being screwed so hard?!?! You should save these pearls of wisdom and invest in making cameras with all this great advice.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: preppyak on December 21, 2012, 01:09:41 AM
Doesn't it come down to the fact that Canon can't MAKE a company sell their product to a specific price..
Actually they can; it's what Nikon does, heavily enforcing their pricing structures making it nearly impossible to sell for anything less than exactly the current price (for example, the D800 was $2999 for many months, with nobody selling it for even $2998). Sure, companies could sell it lower, but, Nikon also could revoke their authorized status and destroy their ability to sell.

Canon is much more relaxed, thus why you see prices move around a lot. It's highly seasonal, so it's more that the natural timing of 5d3 price drops coincides with normal Xmas pricing. When Feb rolls around, you'll see the 5D3 move back to the $3000 range until May/June when new instant rebates come out. You could predict this because the 5D2 saw its price drop in a similar way (http://www.canonpricewatch.com/product/02699/Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-II-price.html). Both times it's moved downward significantly from October through February. Last year, it was it moving from $2500ish to $2000ish, and of course, the retail price drop. Now, it's the retail price creeping down to $1500. Next year, it'll either be discontinued, or you'll see the street price drop again around the holidays
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: preppyak on December 21, 2012, 01:15:25 AM
Also, this is hardly Canon screwing over customers. It's just natural supply and demand. Canon didnt have a huge stock early on, early cameras had issues, and lots of pro's wanted the upgrade. So retailers had no incentive to drop prices, why sell a camera for $3000 when all those customers will pay $3500. Then, once that demand was met, retailers had to entice people to move stock. First it was add-ons, then slight discounts. Some companies are being very aggressive in moving stock now.

I'm not sure what alternative you would propose. Would you rather Canon force every retailer to sell the camera for $3500 forever until they do a retail price drop? Because that will mean retailers move fewer units and Canon makes less profit. They then in turn can't do R&D on new lenses or bodies, and then instead of complaining that the 5dIII costs less now than 6 months ago (like every piece of technology basically ever), you'd be complaining that they haven't released a new 24L, 35L, 400L, 14-24L, and a high MP body.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Zlatko on December 21, 2012, 01:31:23 AM
Why is Canon seemingly actively screwing over it's buyers with insane price cuts, and equally insane introductory mark ups? The only reason I can come up with is that they want to lose customers and lose credibility.

It's pretty ironic when people complain about prices going down.  Some people are never happy. 

Prices go down = they complain that Canon is screwing its customers ("they're cutting prices! — what a terrible company!")
Prices go up = they complain that Canon is screwing its customers  ("they're jacking up prices! — what a terrible company!")
Prices stay the same = they complain that Canon is screwing its customers ("when will prices come down?! — what a terrible company!")

Canon makes some great stuff.  Some items I've bought at full price because I needed them right away, and very happy that I did.  They were too good & useful to wait for.  No regrets.  Other items I bought when prices came down, and very happy that I did.  Again, no regrets.  The cool thing is that while they make great stuff, they don't force you to buy anything.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: robbymack on December 21, 2012, 01:36:57 AM
Did that make you feel better?

My primary income is from investments. I really have no personal feelings when it comes to taking a loss on something. It's business.

My point is simply that Canon is actively trying to screw over it's customers without lube with absurd and insulting markups.

I am simply pointing out facts, and giving both photographers and Canon business advice. Photography product sales are not driven by mark ups and mark downs, they are however driven by stability and trust. Once Canon starts to burn customers they may never see those customers return. Canon has very capable competition, and trust and stability may be all it takes to convert people.

So you bought a depreciating asset and you're upset it depreciated?  Do you return to the Mercedes dealership seconds after driving off the lot with the new s class and complain its now worth 20% less than you paid for it? 
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: M.ST on December 21, 2012, 01:39:44 AM
If you was one one the first who buy the cameras after the introduction (early adopter) then you pay a higher price for the cameras and have many problems with errors.

If you don´t need the cameras for business then you have better to wait a few month.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Zlatko on December 21, 2012, 01:43:11 AM
Canon, like most companies markup their prices for those who must have the latest gadget first.  After those people are ripped off the prices slowly start to come down and are aimed at the consumers waiting for a deal.
That's just the way the technology business is.  Buy the big screen TV that just came out and you pay full price.  Buy the one that came out last year and you get a discount.  It's variable pricing over time.  As prices come down, they attract new buyers with smaller budgets.  Is this news to anyone?
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: ChilledXpress on December 21, 2012, 02:07:30 AM
Canon, like most companies markup their prices for those who must have the latest gadget first.  After those people are ripped off the prices slowly start to come down and are aimed at the consumers waiting for a deal.
That's just the way the technology business is.  Buy the big screen TV that just came out and you pay full price.  Buy the one that came out last year and you get a discount.  It's variable pricing over time.  As prices come down, they attract new buyers with smaller budgets.  Is this news to anyone?

+1000 You must be an investment guy too...jking :D

What you mean my 2 year old TV has depreciated? Whhaaaa.... the next thing your going to tell me is my car lost half it's value when I drove off the lot  :'(
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: ScottyP on December 21, 2012, 02:28:27 AM
OK.  Breathe.

Yes, that OP was a little over the top, and yes, new cars and new computers (especially) and new clothes depreciate pretty rapidly, especially in 2nd-hand sale.  That is very relevant as a comparison.

But, on the other hand, releasing a model of something at an absurdly high retail price, then almost immediately cutting its retail price dramatically may be an innocent adjustment to your gross miscalculation of market demand (acceptable though dumb) or it could be a kind of "customer un-appreciation" if too extreme, and too pre-planned.  There IS an element of trust involved in a loyal customer buying a new product early from a company, and intentionally hosing that loyal customer would be overly sharp dealing, yes?
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: revup67 on December 21, 2012, 02:47:01 AM
Hmm..I look at this a bit differently.  The camera virtually costs the same now as it did 7 or 8 months ago as there's been no change in product though a minor decrease in cost as more are being sold as it seems now.  So let's say that cost to Canon was $1500 but they were charging $3500 and gaining a $2000 profit in this example.  Now that same $1500 has dropped to $2600..same camera, same parts.  Though their profit margin has dropped per unit they are selling more cameras as the price reductions makes it more appealing to more clients thus picking up in a higher quantity sales revenue stream vs. lower sales / greater profit margin (logical scenario).  Wouldn't they have rather sold more up front and possibly grabbed competitive customers from Nikon or upgrades from crop sensor customers?  I believe they lost some folks to Nikon (just go to Nikonrumors.com and see for yourself)and ticked off others on their high price gouging.  Point being if they were willing to settle on a $2600 price now then why wait the 8 months to do so and lose 'any' prospects?  PS - Some of you that use the camera to make a profit or make a living in photography boast unfairly that you've regained your money back.  We are glad for you but that is a myopic standpoint when there are many others that do feel slighted from this drastic price drop in such a short period of time and earn no income from their photography.  Canon didn't win any points here, they only lost (as there isn't one person that would favor a higher price) as those that are now soured will wait on future releases and no longer be early adopters which I believe are key in their "testing the waters"- net result is unfavorable in any regard..there's no win to anyone there.  My belief is there was too much of a price drop in too short of a period of time.  Not griping about a price drop per say, we all know that is to be expected and I think most accept this but not at 26% (2600 / 3500) as Nikon's decrease seems more in line than the extortion-like routine that Canon pulled. 
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Radiating on December 21, 2012, 03:02:40 AM
Maybe I'm looking at things from an overly logical standpoint, but look here are the facts.

Canon has PROVEN that they are willing to create pricing situations which result in new quadrupling of depreciation on both old and new gear. The 5D2 AND the 5D3 were affected, as well as the T4i, and to a lesser degree the 1DX ($900 in 3 months).

For most photographers we are constantly upgrading, meaning depreciation IS the amount we pay for our gear. I've bought lenses that have changed hands 18 times based on serial number look up. Gear changes hands a lot based on needs.

Canon's new pricing strategy indicates they have quadrupled the net costs of owning their equipment for most of their major cameras.

If we as photographers are logical, we would be very weary to buy Canon cameras until they prove they will cease the shenanigans. Canon cameras did not suddenly start producing images that were 4 times better, the competition is extremely close and really only a small bit of personal preference separates them.

Simply put in the cost/benefit equation Canon has increased the costs 4 fold. This is a huge game changer and photographer's relationship with Canon would benefit from being reconsidered.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Hobby Shooter on December 21, 2012, 03:16:58 AM
Hmm..I look at this a bit differently.  The camera virtually costs the same now as it did 7 or 8 months ago as there's been no change in product though a minor decrease in cost as more are being sold as it seems now.  So let's say that cost to Canon was $1500 but they were charging $3500 and gaining a $2000 profit in this example.  Now that same $1500 has dropped to $2600..same camera, same parts.  Though their profit margin has dropped per unit they are selling more cameras as the price reductions makes it more appealing to more clients thus picking up in a higher quantity sales revenue stream vs. lower sales / greater profit margin (logical scenario).  Wouldn't they have rather sold more up front and possibly grabbed competitive customers from Nikon or upgrades from crop sensor customers?  I believe they lost some folks to Nikon (just go to Nikonrumors.com and see for yourself)and ticked off others on their high price gouging.  Point being if they were willing to settle on a $2600 price now then why wait the 8 months to do so and lose 'any' prospects?  PS - Some of you that use the camera to make a profit or make a living in photography boast unfairly that you've regained your money back.  We are glad for you but that is a myopic standpoint when there are many others that do feel slighted from this drastic price drop in such a short period of time and earn no income from their photography.  Canon didn't win any points here, they only lost (as there isn't one person that would favor a higher price) as those that are now soured will wait on future releases and no longer be early adopters which I believe are key in their "testing the waters"- net result is unfavorable in any regard..there's no win to anyone there.  My belief is there was too much of a price drop in too short of a period of time.  Not griping about a price drop per say, we all know that is to be expected and I think most accept this but not at 26% (2600 / 3500) as Nikon's decrease seems more in line than the extortion-like routine that Canon pulled.
Rev, not sure I agree with you here. For every major product launch a company like Canon, Nikon, Dell, Apple whatever will lose some customers due to disappointment of the products and win some thanks to the product. I am sure there are customers who have gone the other way also, when Nikon launched the D800 I am sure there were plenty of people who were disappointed with its limited abilities in terms of AF, burst speed and low light performance. We might not have heard of these people here at this forum, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. I have also been over to nikonrumors (asking about lenses for a friend) and seen a couple of guys saying they are moving away from Nikon. In a a couple of these cases, from their approach it seems more to me like that they are looking for acknowledgement and appreciation more than asking for advise about the Nikon product line. My guess is that several of them won't buy a Nikon in the end either.

In terms of price, well I was one of the early adopters (but waited long enough for the light leak to be fixed for future resell purposes) so I paid a heavy price for it. I am not a professional and definitely didn't need the camera in that sense, but it's still nice to have it and use it. Photography is an expensive hobby for me, I make some money out of it but not enough to cover the hardware cost.

Technology always gets cheaper once it's produced in volumes, that is why we have quad core processors in our computers. Software and services don't follow that price curve.

Nikon's price policy in the case of D800 and D600 for me is inexplicable, it seems that they are in deep trouble or that they have gotten a really cheap price on the sensors from Sony OR did the Dell mistake of using too cheap components for some parts of the camera. That is something that always comes back to bite the company doing that.

My main point though is that all companies will win or lose companies in times of change or major launches. I wouldn't worry too much about the 8 or 10 guys shouting out their hate/frustration in a sometimes overly histrionic fashion.

In the end, I got to agree with you a bit though, the price drop was significant.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Zlatko on December 21, 2012, 03:27:04 AM
... as Nikon's decrease seems more in line than the extortion-like routine that Canon pulled.
It's really nothing like extortion.  That's over the top too, though not as over the top as the OP's "screwing without lube" comment.

I hope everyone who is complaining about the price drops now will come back here to applaud Canon when prices go up.  Like, "Woohoo, prices are UP!  Glad that cost cutting is over!"  When, for whatever reason — seasonal sales ending, exchange rates, inflation, shortages, increased supply costs, etc. — prices go up 10, 20 or 30%, ... will you start a thread about how rational, sensible, fair, happiness-inducing and loyalty-rewarding the new pricing strategy is?  ;)
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: rj79in on December 21, 2012, 03:27:57 AM
Why is Canon seemingly actively screwing over it's buyers with insane price cuts, and equally insane introductory mark ups? The only reason I can come up with is that they want to lose customers and lose credibility.

Brilliant thinking but I doubt whether a corporation loses its customer base / credibility with only the price point :o. I always thought that the product quality is the first and foremost reason to choose or stick to a particular brand. I don't see Apple losing too many of its customers despite the obscene introductory pricing for some of its products.
 
Unless I'm unhappy with Canon's product quality I don't think I'll be switching systems just because the price at which I bought a product, is not held out by Canon for a longer period of time.

Unless you are living on a different planet you should know that the prices come down eventually and so, should wait. On the other hand if you are really craving for a particular product you will get it if you can afford it. What's the point of moaning???

Going by this logic one would moan that a vacation in Miami could be done for less in July as compared to say, February. You know what the current prices are and what the prices are expected in the future ... plan your purchases accordingly.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Hillsilly on December 21, 2012, 03:55:13 AM
Yes.  Canon should give their cameras away for free.  Or, more realistically, provide them on a subscription basis.  They probably don't cost that much to manufacture anyway, so if they did this directly from the factory it wouldn't cost them too much.  They'd easily make up the cash in extra lens sales to the millions of new Canon DSLR users.  Basic Marketing 101.  ;)

Would you pay $400/yr to rent a 5Diii directly from Canon on a 3 year agreement?  $1000/yr for a 1Dx?
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Canon-F1 on December 21, 2012, 04:04:16 AM
nikons D600 is a a bargain compared to 6D from the start.

500 euro difference...  that is more of a concerne for me then price cuts.

today... 1500 euro for the D600 and 2000 euro for the 6D.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: bycostello on December 21, 2012, 04:13:35 AM
c'mon.. we all know new stuff is more expensive and will get cheaper....
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: sparda79 on December 21, 2012, 04:15:23 AM
nikons D600 is a a bargain compared to 6D from the start.

500 euro difference...  that is more of a concerne for me then price cuts.

today... 1500 euro for the D600 and 2000 euro for the 6D.

In my country... they are the same price... well actually the 6D is slightly, but negligibly cheaper... both around 1500 when converted to euro..
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: sanj on December 21, 2012, 04:23:28 AM
Yeah I agree, price drops happened a bit too fast.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Canon-F1 on December 21, 2012, 04:23:57 AM
nikons D600 is a a bargain compared to 6D from the start.

500 euro difference...  that is more of a concerne for me then price cuts.

today... 1500 euro for the D600 and 2000 euro for the 6D.

In my country... they are the same price... well actually the 6D is slightly, but negligibly cheaper... both around 1500 when converted to euro..

you don´t live in europe i guess?
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: studio1972 on December 21, 2012, 04:30:09 AM
It's pretty simple.

Canon add an early adopter premium at launch, this reduces gradually until around a year afterwards. Incidentally, by this time, they have also worked out any quality problems/firmware glitches with the camera.

So, if you can wait a year before buying your camera, you will get a better product at a much reduced price.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Kristofgss on December 21, 2012, 05:51:01 AM
I don't get the issue with depreciation. In my mind, you set a price at which you say "now I'm willing to buy it, the camera or lens is worth this much to me" at that point you simply go out and buy it. Once you have done that, you have the pleasure of using it. I bought the pancake lens when it came out at 280 euro. Now it's only 200. You could say that I lost 80 euro on it, but it does not feel that way. I have been taking great pictures with it and love to have it on my camera. I love the lens at 300 euro, I love it at 200 and I would not have bought it, if it was 400. And the good news is that if it ever breaks down, I can now get a new one for only 200 euro now instead of 280. Every month you have it, is an extra month you can enjoy what you bought.
Things can go down or up in value, but at least you have the object you desired. If the value of it bothers you so much, put the money to buy it it on a separate bank account and pretend you have bought it and hey presto, it becomes  worth more every year.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Mick on December 21, 2012, 06:42:57 AM
What i always do is wait. Wait around 6 months from the launch of a new product then look at the reviews. If i need it I buy it. After that time the price stabilises and you get some second hand bargains. The 70/200 mk2 was well over £2100 when launched. Bought an almost new one 6 months later at £1600. Camera bodies the same. Whilst im no lover of big corporations, they charge what the individual market of that country will bear. If we dont like it, dont buy it then they will change their pricing policy. I did buy a new 500f4, £8200 full price. I know in 5 years time it will be worth the same or more. Dont know why Nikons stuff is that bit cheaper. I guess it depreciates less from launch and its what the market will bear.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Cannon Man on December 21, 2012, 07:16:23 AM
Who cares about pricing? i don't.
I just care that the product is well made.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: tron on December 21, 2012, 07:28:41 AM
Lower prices is never a problem. Instead, initial very high prices are. But we set our own rules. If price is very high and we think an item is not worth it we simply don't get it. Let them try to sell it.

For example this is what I am thinking about the new 24, 28, 35 IS prime lenses. They are simply not worth it. (But this is just me. I wouldn't get them anyway.)
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: neuroanatomist on December 21, 2012, 07:34:41 AM
...I just don't feel comfortable buying any Canon gear any more.

I picked up a new T4i for $480 today.

...Canon is actively trying to screw over it's customers without lube

Ok, so...you 'don't feel comfortable' buying Canon gear anymore, and yet, you bought more Canon gear, this very day.  From that, one can only conclude that you enjoy the discomfort of being screwed over without lube...   ::)
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: sanj on December 21, 2012, 08:19:04 AM
Fan boys can get aggressive!  ;D
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: verysimplejason on December 21, 2012, 08:21:36 AM
Nikon realized they need to hook customers first before they can sell a lot.  If they can bait enough from emerging clients from Asia, they will have a good customer base in the future.  Once somebody is invested in a system, most of the time, they tend to stick to that system.   I guess that's the reason of the current aggressive pricing of their camera bodies.  Canon should be careful.  Trends like these are like diseases.  It will grow if you don't cut it.  I also think that's the reason of Canon's action regarding prices.  Once they've seen the competition, they are forced to bring down also their prices.  I guess they're just trying to milk the market first during initial product launch then they bring down prices as soon as they can see some fluctuation from their sales figures.  That's why it is always prudent to wait.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: nonac on December 21, 2012, 08:27:06 AM
You should be on the other thread "right now i am not happy to be a canon user" and you two can have a pitty party.  Booo hooo hooo hoo !!!!

Still stunned that people complain about spending their money. Damn Canon... they forced me to buy a great camera and now, months later, I don't like the price I paid because I couldn't wait. They screwed me!!!! Whaaaa whaaa... Adults make decisions about where to spend their money... you have no one to blame but yourself if you have buyer’s remorse. If you can't afford the price of entry and it's a financial hardship... you shouldn't be spending money you don’t have.

I could afford what I paid, I even held out about 4 months after release to see if the price would move, it did not, so I bought it.  Then the price starts falling.  I could afford it, I just don't like wasting money that could have been spent on other gear.

Again... buyers remorse. You should have waited until the mark 7 comes out, then you can score a mark 3 for for under 500$ on Ebay... in 2022! What I don't understand is how this is a "new" thing for some here. Like you were totally unaware there will be a price drop... A search of the threads on this forum will show that even before a new version comes out someone is asking "How long until the price drops on model X?"

I bought a 7D in 2009... I'm soooo pissed at the current price!!! Canon is horrible to lower the price that much. I wasted sooo much money. If only I had waited 3 years. The reality is that I bought the camera new and have enjoyed every single moment with it during this time... I was NOT ripped off. I put on my big boy pants, bought the camera and went out and took photos. I knew exactly what I was doing and I did not open a thread complaing about how evil Canon marketing is. 

Take some solace in the fact that after the 21st you won’t have to wallow in the shame of spending more than you think you should have. Have a Happy Mayan New year!!!

You are talking 3 YEARS on the 7d price drop.  I'm talking 3 months and its 20% cheaper, and I waited 3-4 months after release to see if it would fall due to the comments I read. That's quite a bit of difference in such a short time span.  A toons are louder than words and as I stated on won't be buying anything else until at least a year after initial launch.  I'm a hobbyist, so "jobs" mean nothing to me as far as recouping that early adopter surcharge that many of you mention.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: tortilla on December 21, 2012, 08:37:58 AM
and I picked up a new T4i for $480 today.

Congrats! Sounds like a bargain. But don't you think too that was only possible because early adopters paid twice as much when the t4i was released?

Yeah I agree, price drops happened a bit too fast.

Yes, hopefully prices will go up again soon   ;)

Who cares about pricing? i don't.
I just care that the product is well made.

Maybe it's surprising to you, but there are indeed people who are not photographing for living but just for fun every now and then. They can't set their gear off against tax liability and may also have other hobbies - but having said this: I don't understand either why these people need the latest gear...

Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: verysimplejason on December 21, 2012, 08:42:21 AM
You should be on the other thread "right now i am not happy to be a canon user" and you two can have a pitty party.  Booo hooo hooo hoo !!!!

Still stunned that people complain about spending their money. Damn Canon... they forced me to buy a great camera and now, months later, I don't like the price I paid because I couldn't wait. They screwed me!!!! Whaaaa whaaa... Adults make decisions about where to spend their money... you have no one to blame but yourself if you have buyer’s remorse. If you can't afford the price of entry and it's a financial hardship... you shouldn't be spending money you don’t have.

I could afford what I paid, I even held out about 4 months after release to see if the price would move, it did not, so I bought it.  Then the price starts falling.  I could afford it, I just don't like wasting money that could have been spent on other gear.

Again... buyers remorse. You should have waited until the mark 7 comes out, then you can score a mark 3 for for under 500$ on Ebay... in 2022! What I don't understand is how this is a "new" thing for some here. Like you were totally unaware there will be a price drop... A search of the threads on this forum will show that even before a new version comes out someone is asking "How long until the price drops on model X?"

I bought a 7D in 2009... I'm soooo pissed at the current price!!! Canon is horrible to lower the price that much. I wasted sooo much money. If only I had waited 3 years. The reality is that I bought the camera new and have enjoyed every single moment with it during this time... I was NOT ripped off. I put on my big boy pants, bought the camera and went out and took photos. I knew exactly what I was doing and I did not open a thread complaing about how evil Canon marketing is. 

Take some solace in the fact that after the 21st you won’t have to wallow in the shame of spending more than you think you should have. Have a Happy Mayan New year!!!

You are talking 3 YEARS on the 7d price drop.  I'm talking 3 months and its 20% cheaper, and I waited 3-4 months after release to see if it would fall due to the comments I read. That's quite a bit of difference in such a short time span.  A toons are louder than words and as I stated on won't be buying anything else until at least a year after initial launch.  I'm a hobbyist, so "jobs" mean nothing to me as far as recouping that early adopter surcharge that many of you mention.

You have to look at rival companies also like Nikon.  Somehow, Canon needs to keep up with them or else they lose some chunk of the market.  If Nikon brings down their prices aggressively, look for Canon to bring down theirs also.  That's the nature of business.  It doesn't matter if it's 3 months or 1 month.  All that matters is that their price is at least competitive in the market.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Kristofgss on December 21, 2012, 08:54:22 AM
i can´t say the same about me.. i have 3000 euro in my socks for a new FF... but im not buying at the price right now.
That does buy a 5D3 with 200 euro to spare at a reputable dealer right now.  :D
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Krob78 on December 21, 2012, 09:09:13 AM
I knew I wanted the 5D MK III right after I read the specs, after the announcement.  I also knew that there would be updates and bug fixes within a few months, I also knew that seasonal (Christmas, black Friday) sales would drive prices down for a short run...

I own an amazing 7D, still worth every penny I paid for it 2.5 years ago, to me anyway.  I knew I wasn't going to pay $3400 for the 5D3 that I wanted so bad.  Put on my big boy pants and decided to wait it out... Did I miss out? not really, most bugs are fixed, my 7D is still an amazing tool in my hands, still made money with my 7D to help pay for my 5D3 and waited till this week to grab one for $2600... I'm happy with what I paid and have no doubt I'll continue to be happy with that, several years from now when it's selling for another $600 less...

Everyone knows the drill.  Just wait it out if it's too much now.  If you don't know the drill, you will learn after you buy the first time as an early adopter.  It was obviously worth it to you when you made the intial purchase, go enjoy your gear and hobby and fahgetaboutit...  8)  Just make a choice not to be an early adopter anymore...
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: emag on December 21, 2012, 09:15:13 AM
I for one wish to heartily thank the OP.  The pros almost HAVE to buy the latest and greatest to remain competitive.  No matter how skilled you are, sometimes you simply need a better tool.  I'm certain Canon's marketing folks price accordingly.  Then there are folks like the OP, who want to rush out and get the latest and greatest for whatever reason and also serve to some extent as beta testers.  I'm sure Canon's marketing folks track these numbers and then toss them in the blender with seasonal sales targets and determine price reductions.  Thanks to the selfless sacrifice of people like the OP, those of us with greater patience can take advantage of these lower prices.  ::)
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: neuroanatomist on December 21, 2012, 09:16:58 AM
That's why it is always prudent to wait.

Prudent...if your main goal is to get new gear at the lowest possible price, because the cost is a limiting factor.  That's not true for everyone, though.

I'm a hobbyist, so "jobs" mean nothing to me as far as recouping that early adopter surcharge that many of you mention.

I'm a hobbyist, too, which means I don't have to track P&L or claim depreciation on my tax returns...  Since I can afford (and pay cash for) the gear I buy, a price drop after I buy doesn't particularly bother me.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Krob78 on December 21, 2012, 09:17:57 AM
One other thing.  I couldn't imagine shooting this last 2.5 years with my old XSi instead of my over priced 7D.  The images and fun I've had shooting my 7D over those last couple of years has been worth every penny I spent and I couldn't care how much they sell for now, it was worth every penny...

Not only that, my 7D paid for itself and paid for my 5D3 in the time I've had it... If my first 7D wasn't still such a fantastic camera I go out and buy another one now at these new low prices just to have one for a back up...

Of course the 7D2 being on the horizon, I suppose I can wait it out... check out the specs anyway!  Then wait a year to purchase... 6 months after announcement and 6 more months after initial release... So it's a possible purchase maybe around spring of 2014... not being an early adopter... but who knows what else they will come out with by then! 

Don't look back! 
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Krob78 on December 21, 2012, 09:20:47 AM
That's why it is always prudent to wait.

Prudent...if your main goal is to get new gear at the lowest possible price, because the cost is a limiting factor.  That's not true for everyone, though.

In that case, Prudence Pays...

I'm a hobbyist, so "jobs" mean nothing to me as far as recouping that early adopter surcharge that many of you mention.

I'm a hobbyist, too, which means I don't have to track P&L or claim depreciation on my tax returns...  Since I can afford (and pay cash for) the gear I buy, a price drop after I buy doesn't particularly bother me.

In that case, Prudence is Perfunctory...
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: darkhound on December 21, 2012, 09:29:49 AM
If you can afford all that gear, you can afford to get ripped off :)

Also your analogy is incomplete because you don't compare the release dates of the Canon v. Nikon products.  As you know, the drop-off occurs most drastically after the first few months.  Were the Canon products and Nikon products at the exact same stage in their lifecycles?
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Krob78 on December 21, 2012, 09:36:37 AM
Also your analogy is incomplete because you don't compare the release dates of the Canon v. Nikon products.  As you know, the drop-off occurs most drastically after the first few months.  Were the Canon products and Nikon products at the exact same stage in their lifecycles?

who cares?
if i have two equal products today .... i don´t care if one was released earlyer.

i care about what i have to pay.

Well that being said, then it would seem to "pay" to care about release dates... Just saying..  ???
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: pdirestajr on December 21, 2012, 09:37:16 AM
What about all those people who bought a Nikon D600 kit a month ago? It's reduced by 700USD right now! Oh, and you get a "superior" sensor covered in oil for free!
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: neuroanatomist on December 21, 2012, 09:37:51 AM
if i have two equal products today .... i don´t care if one was released earlyer.

Ahhh...so, the products are equal, are they?  :-X
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: sparda79 on December 21, 2012, 09:40:58 AM
nikons D600 is a a bargain compared to 6D from the start.

500 euro difference...  that is more of a concerne for me then price cuts.

today... 1500 euro for the D600 and 2000 euro for the 6D.

In my country... they are the same price... well actually the 6D is slightly, but negligibly cheaper... both around 1500 when converted to euro..

you don´t live in europe i guess?

Nope. I'm in Malaysia.
I bought my 5D3 early April, and it was cheaper than the D800 at the time here.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Krob78 on December 21, 2012, 09:48:49 AM
if i have two equal products today .... i don´t care if one was released earlyer.

Ahhh...so, the products are equal, are they?  :-X

+1
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Canon-F1 on December 21, 2012, 09:53:20 AM
if i have two equal products today .... i don´t care if one was released earlyer.

Ahhh...so, the products are equal, are they?  :-X

depends on who you ask.

a lot of reviewers, former canon customers and new customers think the D800 is the better camera for them, at a lower price.

Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Krob78 on December 21, 2012, 10:03:21 AM
They're all great cameras!  Just pick the one or ones you want and get it!  You can have a lot more fun out shooting with whichever camera you buy, than you'll ever have complaining about the prices!  Don't look back!  Go Take Photos!!  ;D
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: neuroanatomist on December 21, 2012, 10:03:40 AM
if i have two equal products today .... i don´t care if one was released earlyer.

Ahhh...so, the products are equal, are they?  :-X

depends on who you ask.

a lot of reviewers, former canon customers and new customers think the D800 is the better camera for them, at a lower price.

...and a lot of former Nikon customers went from a D700 to a 5DIII, too.  So what?

if i have two equal products today .... i don´t care if one was released earlyer.

Ahhh...so, the products are equal, are they?  :-X

overall yes.

one is better for the sports photographer the other for studio, macro and landscape photographer.
but the 5D MK3 is sure not 800 euro more worth then the D800.

I'm glad that's true for you. Why are you still here in Canon land, then?  If Nikon is so much cheaper, you should switch.  Please.

But...as I pointed out in your similarly-themed thread, have you considered the total cost of switching?  For me, the D800 is less than $200 cheaper than the 5DIII.  But say the difference was $1050, the US$ equivalent of your 800 €.  If I was looking for a backup FF body, saving $1K by buying a cheaper D800 that doesn't work with the >$30K of Canon lenses and flashes that I use would be a very expensive way to "save money."
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Videoshooter on December 21, 2012, 10:05:17 AM
It's common knowledge that the initial release price is always higher than the eventual market price. It's the price you pay for being an early adopter.

What confuses me is the way people always find something to complain about. 3 months ago everybody was saying "This is ridiculous, please lower the price," now fast forward a few weeks and people are complaining that Canon did exactly what everyone asked - lowered the price!

Products generally drop their price over time. Yes, most cameras will be considerably cheaper a few months after they are released. If you can't wait that long, then it obviously means you are a busy working professional, and the camera will pay for itself in a few weeks anyway, so the extra money is no bid deal.

And you think the Canon depreciation in bad? I know somebody who bought a RED Epic earlier this year, before they dropped the price by nearly $20,000. Is he pissed? No, because he got to use the camera for several months, and the income he has made with the camera in that time makes up for the higher price.

You can't hold others responsible for the purchases you make. If you like the product and are willing to pay a certain price, then that is your decision and yours alone. Nobody is forcing you to buy anything.

Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: awinphoto on December 21, 2012, 10:12:34 AM
For what it's worth, just this morning I got a Canon survey on my satisfaction with their gear... THESE SURVEYS ARE THE BEST WAY TO GET THROUGH TO THEM...  If your registered with Canon, I would assume you would have gotten these surveys... communicating with them goes farther than griping on canon rumors. 
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: David Hull on December 21, 2012, 10:13:38 AM
Is this a humor post that was somehow written poorley?  Otherwise, I cannot imagine anyone bitching about a price reduction.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: unfocused on December 21, 2012, 10:22:31 AM
This is a ridiculous thread.

Canon is "screwing over" its customers because the market value of the 5DIII is less than the price it was released at?

I hardly know where to begin.

What the pricing REALLY reflects is that even Canon cannot dictate to the market. In a competitive market environment, the market sets the price and that is exactly what is happening here. The only official price reduction of the 5DIII is a $200 rebate that reduces the official price to $3,299. Rebates are common and allow companies to adjust their pricing without having to officially acknowledge that their pricing was too high in the first place.

But, look at what has happened with the 5DIII. The market has said that even $3,299 is too much. Canon is powerless to prevent retailers from discounting the product even more. They have tried to impose a "Minimum Advertised Price" but the market is dictating an even lower price, so sellers are skirting the rules to meet the actual market price. And, faced with the facts of the marketplace, Canon knows they can't do much to stop retailers from cutting prices.

Neither the retailers nor Canon WANT to sell the 5DIII at a lower price, but they have no choice. The market has spoken and said the actual price of the camera should be $3,000 or lower.  So, as of today, we have authorized dealers selling it at about $2,975 and unauthorized dealers at $2,799.

In other words, the market is saying that the value of purchasing from an authorized dealer is about $175 over an unauthorized dealer.

Now, look at Nikon. The official price of the D800 is $2,999, while the street price (B&H) is $2,796.

To summarize, the market is saying the actual value of the 5DIII is about $200 more than the actual market value of the D800 and both were originally priced too high.  If you discount the value of an authorized dealership, the D800 and the 5DIII are essentially the same price.

As much fun as it is to blame big bad Canon for all your woes, the reality is that this is just capitalism at work. And, frankly, its working in the consumers favor.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: darkhound on December 21, 2012, 10:24:39 AM
Also your analogy is incomplete because you don't compare the release dates of the Canon v. Nikon products.  As you know, the drop-off occurs most drastically after the first few months.  Were the Canon products and Nikon products at the exact same stage in their lifecycles?

who cares?
if i have two equal products today .... i don´t care if one was released earlyer.

i care about what i have to pay.

Well that being said, then it would seem to "pay" to care about release dates... Just saying..  ???

Exactly.  If you care what you have to pay, you should pay attention to release dates because they are obviously correlated to price -- the biggest drop in price occurs over the first several months, and then the price gradually stabilizes.

Because of this logarithmic relation, if the Nikon was released several months before the Canon, then your comparison and numbers are nonsensical and do not support your suggestion that Canon's markup for early adopters is more aggressive than Nikon's.

This is like grade 7 logic.  You can't compare the month 1-3 price drop of a BMW to the month 10-13 price drop of a Mercedes, even though both are 3 month periods.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Harv on December 21, 2012, 10:29:29 AM
Every day is a learning experience for me.  I've always thought that I bought my cameras to use taking photographs.  Now I find out it's all about tracking depreciation.

If some of the posts on this thread were not so entertaining, they would be pitiful.  I suppose I missed the class 'Winning Thru Whining 101'.

For those who feel Nikon would treat them better, they should make the jump.  Just remember, the grass is often seen as greener on the other side of the fence because it is so well fertilized with BS.

Just saying.   ;D

Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: neuroanatomist on December 21, 2012, 11:22:27 AM
I'm glad that's true for you. Why are you still here in Canon land, then?  If Nikon is so much cheaper, you should switch.  Please.

spoken like a true fanboy.  ::)

nobody wrote about switching... i sure don´t.

but if it hurts your fanboy feelings when people dare to say that canon gear is overpriced... i beg your pardon but that´s what many people think.

you obviously donated a great part of your life to canon... and i did not want to make you feel bad with my posting! it was not personal or meant to make other canon users feel bad!

Thanks for that quite offensive post.  'Fanboy' connotes a loss of objectivity, something I assure you I don't suffer from.  I've spent far more money on the make of cars my wife and I drive, because they offered the features we wanted...am I a fanboy of that make, as well? (I guess not, because our needs have changed, and the next vehicle will be a different make).  I must be a house, 401K, and 529 college fund fanboy, too - way more than Canon judging by my spend in those areas.

The D800 is a better landscape camera (as I've stated before) - and if that was my main shooting interest, I'd buy one (would have done so already, in fact, and not come here whining about it beforehand).

You previously stated, "i can get a D800 for 2289 euro from a big and reputed reseller here in germany (from some smaller shops it´s as low as 2150 euro)," and went on to discuss D600 prices, too...if you aren't even considering switching, why do you even care what Nikon bodies costs?  Perhaps as an excuse to whine and complain?  At least that's free, so by all means, carry on...
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: RLPhoto on December 21, 2012, 11:23:59 AM
Meh, This seems to only be an issue for early adopters. I got both my Mk3s for under 3000$ and one for 2499$. I couldn't feel better about being patient.   8)

Just don't be an early adopter unless absolutely necessary.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Zlatko on December 21, 2012, 11:29:29 AM
What confuses me is the way people always find something to complain about. 3 months ago everybody was saying "This is ridiculous, please lower the price," now fast forward a few weeks and people are complaining that Canon did exactly what everyone asked - lowered the price!
It's pretty funny — they get nasty complaints even when doing exactly what people want.  "I'm so pissed off ... the price is too high!" followed a few months later by "I'm so pissed off ... the price came down!"

And Canon wins no thanks at all ... zip ... zero ... for lowering the price of the 5D2 to a rock bottom fire sale low.  Remember when we were hoping and praying to see a full frame camera under $2,000?  The 5D2 is now more affordable than ever at $1,600.  It wasn't too long ago that some APS-C cameras cost more than that.  That's a big win for anyone looking to get their first full-frame.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: neuroanatomist on December 21, 2012, 11:34:03 AM
What confuses me is the way people always find something to complain about. 3 months ago everybody was saying "This is ridiculous, please lower the price," now fast forward a few weeks and people are complaining that Canon did exactly what everyone asked - lowered the price!
It's pretty funny — they get nasty complaints even when doing exactly what people want.  "I'm so pissed off ... the price is too high!" followed a few months later by "I'm so pissed off ... the price came down!"

Translation: people are pissed off at their own past buying decisions, but they refuse to take personal responsibility, and blame someone else, instead.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: bdunbar79 on December 21, 2012, 11:44:00 AM
I'm with you.  I could get my 5d Mk III kit $700-800 less today than I paid 5 months go.  That's a lot of money to me that i just threw away.  I feel like I basically gave a charitable contribution to Canon.  That won't happen again as I will no longer be an early adopter of anything they bring to market.

Plain and simple, you knew the cost at the time, and YOU made the decision to purchase the camera.  Everyone knows early adopters pay more.  I was an early adopter and paid more and I'm so glad I did, because I got 6 months worth of shooting in before the price went down, and that's worth more than $700-$800 to me.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: JPAZ on December 21, 2012, 11:49:28 AM
All very interesting.  All very redundant.  My home is worth less than what I paid for it due to the nuances of the marketplace and economy.  But, it does not matter.  I am not moving so I am not selling.  I really like my home.  What others may pay does not matter that much unless I have to sell........

I really like my 5Diii.  Unless I post it on CL or FM or EB for sale, it does not matter what the price is for those who want to buy one now............
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: bdunbar79 on December 21, 2012, 11:51:00 AM
I'm glad that's true for you. Why are you still here in Canon land, then?  If Nikon is so much cheaper, you should switch.  Please.

spoken like a true fanboy.  ::)

nobody wrote about switching... i sure don´t.

but if it hurts your fanboy feelings when people dare to say that canon gear is overpriced... i beg your pardon but that´s what many people think.

you obviously donated a great part of your life to canon... and i did not want to make you feel bad with my posting! it was not personal or meant to make other canon users feel bad!

What's hilarious is that the only people bitching about Canon gear being overpriced are those that continue (and will continue) to purchase Canon gear.  It's people who are not financially responsible that are the complainers.  YOU know the price BEFORE you make the purchase.  Don't like it, don't buy it.  If you buy it then don't complain because later the price came down.  This is not difficult.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: neuroanatomist on December 21, 2012, 11:51:40 AM
Oh, and by the way...

Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over

Sure they can.  As long as they keep their shareholders happy, they can screw their customers over, up, down, and sideways. 
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: tron on December 21, 2012, 12:03:41 PM
...they can screw their customers over, up, down, and sideways.
;D
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: sanj on December 21, 2012, 12:15:05 PM
For those who feel Nikon would treat them better, they should make the jump.  Just remember, the grass is often seen as greener on the other side of the fence because it is so well fertilized with BS.



thanks for the insight... i never read that before.. it´s so genuine!!

i came up with some great stuff too: "go out and take photos instead of wasting your time on forums".

isn´t that great...?

or wait... wait...... one more.

it´s not the CAMERA... it´s the PHOTOGRAPHER.. uh..???

oohhh... i can´t stop.... more of my wisdom :

for good images take the lens cap off!!!!

:) :)
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Cannon Man on December 21, 2012, 12:31:33 PM
Who cares about pricing? i don't

the people in this thread maybe.....  ::)

Quote
I just care that the product is well made.

well i would buy leica then.. not canon.

Leica M Monochrom is on my shopping list. I own a photography company and i don't make much money
from it yet but i still don't care how much it costs. the more the merrier.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: jcns on December 21, 2012, 12:43:18 PM
so you are saying depreciation bothers you.
5d's target consumer is pro's, who'll buy this cameras to make a living.  They are not going to complain about depreciation because they are making money with the equipment.
You can't afford depreciation, you can't afford the product.
Assume you buy a dress shirt for $50 today, you wear it, and try to sell it in 3 months.  How much do you think you'll get for that shirt?!!! $25?  You would not complain about that because you got your money's worth.
Go out and get your money's worth with the gear you bought.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: cliffwang on December 21, 2012, 01:23:45 PM
so you are saying depreciation bothers you.
5d's target consumer is pro's, who'll buy this cameras to make a living.  They are not going to complain about depreciation because they are making money with the equipment.
You can't afford depreciation, you can't afford the product.
Assume you buy a dress shirt for $50 today, you wear it, and try to sell it in 3 months.  How much do you think you'll get for that shirt?!!! $25?  You would not complain about that because you got your money's worth.
Go out and get your money's worth with the gear you bought.
True.  However, I think many 5D buyers are not PROs because three of my colleagues own 5D3.
You do see many people complain the price drop here and I believe most of them are not PROs.  If people really make money from their 5D3, they probably won't complain the price drop here.  I am the one pay for the highest price(~3000) for 5D3 in my company but I don't envy that my colleagues.  People need to realize depreciation happens.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: ChilledXpress on December 21, 2012, 01:33:54 PM
Whaaa whaaa whaaaa... I got screwed. Canon forced me to buy this camera!!!

I vote to change the tittle of this thread to "Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Naive Customers Over" that would better describe the OP's concern. I'm a customer and I find it insulting to be pooled with this "group" of customers.

"Adults" that can't take the responsibility for their decisions when to buy or not, can only complain... It always somebody else’s fault! You had all the choices before you bought the camera, you made the decision to buy... how is that Canon fault. Mommy forgot to explain this to you?!?! Cameras are expensive if you can't handle the price of model X there are a million other options.

And let's not even talk about a Leica or a Hasselblad pricing... unfortunately, the posers on Hasselblad Rumors are complaining about their 50k purchase there also. I just spent 49,995$ and Hasselblad lowered the price 8,000$ right after I recieved it.... whahhhaaaa whaaaa. I was screeeeewed !!!

You had a choice... you could shoot with an iPhone or a Rebel and thoroughly enjoy yourself, if taking pictures is what you like to do. If forum wars based on Canon's pricing is your thing, I can see your motive. You went this route because you wanted this or that camera ( for whatever reason)... live with your decision and pretend you’re an adult.

Now I'm heading over to the thread " I Only Shoot in a dark closet and my 5D3 has a horrible light leak..." BTW - I really think the DR of the D800 handles pitch black closet shots sooooo much better I'm jumping ship for Nikon. Because they are cheaper, so much better and they love me soooo much more than Canon, I get a warm fuzzy feeling in my tummy.  ::) 
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: agierke on December 21, 2012, 01:53:53 PM
do you complain about the depreciation of your car after you drive it off the dealerships lot? because that is alot worse than what any of the camera companies are doing.

this is not a new trend....its the primary reason i dont buy camera gear within the first year of its release. sry you feel burned, but this is how it goes and its been this way for a while.

chalk it up to a learning experience and show a little patience next time.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Chosenbydestiny on December 21, 2012, 02:33:28 PM
do you complain about the depreciation of your car after you drive it off the dealerships lot? because that is alot worse than what any of the camera companies are doing.

this is not a new trend....its the primary reason i dont buy camera gear within the first year of its release. sry you feel burned, but this is how it goes and its been this way for a while.

chalk it up to a learning experience and show a little patience next time.

+1 If you're a pro and bought it close to release, you should have already made enough money to offset that price decrease. It's a small price to pay for being one of the first few with the newest, though not always best technology. The market gets more difficult to compete in for the average pro when everyone else has the same camera. If you're planning to invest a lot of money in a new body for hobby purposes... It's most likely not an investment at all. It's been this way for quite awhile.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: rlarsen on December 21, 2012, 02:46:00 PM
I purchased a 5D MK ll last December. I waited for a sale and got it for a good price. I knew the Mark lll would likely be released soon and I was first on the waiting list and received two in March. Because I got a good deal on the Mark ll I was able to sell it without losing much money. I paid full retail for the new MK lll bodies and was eager to put them to work.
I really like the cameras and would not have paid full price if I didn't think they were worth it.

It's not complicated. Follow this website to learn about new products about to be released and look for stories about occasional sales. If your priority is saving money, buy gear that's been on the market for awhile, look for sales, or buy refurbished or used.

Also be aware how technology changes pricing. Remember how expensive a 250 megabyte card was when it first came out.

Save money by being smart. and make money and great pictures by being smart. It's not complicated.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Axilrod on December 21, 2012, 03:11:13 PM
Yeah I agree that it was a really crap feeling seeing the 5D3 drop more than $1k than I paid for it 8 months ago (was $376x with tax).  I mean $2999 I can understand but $2499?  That's what the 5D2 was selling for a year ago!

I'm not saying prices shouldn't come down, but I don't think any of Canon's other products have followed a similar pricing pattern, just the 5D3.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Kernuak on December 21, 2012, 03:26:09 PM
I bought a 7D in 2009... I'm soooo pissed at the current price!!! Canon is horrible to lower the price that much. I wasted sooo much money. If only I had waited 3 years. The reality is that I bought the camera new and have enjoyed every single moment with it during this time... I was NOT ripped off. I put on my big boy pants, bought the camera and went out and took photos. I knew exactly what I was doing and I did not open a thread complaing about how evil Canon marketing is. 

Take some solace in the fact that after the 21st you won’t have to wallow in the shame of spending more than you think you should have. Have a Happy Mayan New year!!!

That's a terrible example, the 7D was $1699 when it came out and it's STILL $1499 and only now $1399 with xmas rebates.  That's a few hundred bucks over a couple of years, it would be ridiculous to complain about $200 in depreciation over 3 years.  The 5D3 dropped almost $1,000 in 6 months!  Not the same at all.  And you don't have to be such a prick about it.
That all depends on which market you bought in. In the UK, the 7D sold for £1699 in 2009, it is now selling for around £950. That is not far off a 50% loss. Even going by the US market, is is still a significant percentage drop, roughly the equivalent of double the drop in terms of the 5D MkIII. Of course, we have to accept the bizarre exchange rates in teh UK for electronics, compared to the actual exchange rate. Balance that though, with being able to photograph water rails on ice at ISO 1600 while lying in the snow in sub-zero temperatures. I very much doubt I'd have got the shots with my 40D. Likewise, while Iwasn't an early adopter with the 5D MkIII, I bought from Digital Rev just before the price drop, but again, I would have missed shots with the 7D or 5D MkII. Price drops are normal with any electronic goods and it is something you have to consider when buying. It's the same with TVs. On th eflip side, I bought a 300mm f/2.8 L IS a few years ago for £2700, it is now selling secondhand for around £3100.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Renegade Runner on December 21, 2012, 04:05:30 PM
I am the type of person who knows I am being ripped off when I buy a product on it's launch date.  I hate myself for paying the premium price but I do it anyways.  Some how that goes away once I am home, opening the box and holding the product in my hand.  I feel so excited and happy I don't care I was ripped off anymore.

I am sure there are many like me out there and Canon knows it.  So yes Canon will continue to screw people like me.  Ahhh, so this is what it feels like to be on the receiving end.  ;)
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: bp on December 21, 2012, 05:01:19 PM
What a stupid thread.

Don't buy any new tech.  Ever.  Problem solved.  Welcome to earth
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: AAPhotog on December 21, 2012, 05:46:24 PM
If I knew the camera would drop almost $1000 since release, I would have waited.
If I knew that I could purchase the camera for the same price that I did(at release) now, and get a free L lens... I would have waited
Point is, I believe that these price drops occured too soon.

Honestly, how many of you purchase items that drop this much of a price in 6 months?
when I purchase an iPhone, its the same price until... the next iphone comes out.

The flat screen TV that I purchased for $1500 when it came out almost a year ago, is till $1200

Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: AAPhotog on December 21, 2012, 05:47:03 PM
do you complain about the depreciation of your car after you drive it off the dealerships lot? because that is alot worse than what any of the camera companies are doing.

this is not a new trend....its the primary reason i dont buy camera gear within the first year of its release. sry you feel burned, but this is how it goes and its been this way for a while.

chalk it up to a learning experience and show a little patience next time.

Which car are you talking about?
By the way, many people know cars will depreciate and for the most part you can pretty much KNOW how much in how long.
Did you know that this camera would loose over 25% of it's value in 6 months?
With the car, you can make a decision based on an educated assumption.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: HoneyBadger on December 21, 2012, 05:56:33 PM
When you buy tech items within a month or two of their release.... of course you will pay a lot more than half a year or a year later. Can canon continue this? Well, you were an early adopter, I was an early adopter and other were as well so yes they can as long as we keep buying. Also, it is hard to find the 5DIII much cheaper than 2999 from a reputable dealer. I stick with amazon, adorama and BH and they wil not have it much cheaper than that unless its a very special deal somehow. I got "lucky" and amazon dropped the price to 3350 for a few hours one day and I made them price match me since I bought mine for 3499 a week before lol.

The key is to wait until it drops, buy when you absolutely need it, or buy it and enjoy it and not worry about the price drops that will always come a half year after a tech item is released.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: earwaxxer on December 21, 2012, 06:11:46 PM
My biggest complaint about what Canon has been dishing out with their DSLR's in the past 5yrs or so, is that you can almost depend that they are not going to work right out of the box. You need to wait for several firmware upgrades, and even then the problem may not be fixed. I was VERY discouraged when my 40D stopped working due to a bad shutter after a couple of years. As I read more about that particular problem, it was pretty common. Thats not good.

And dont get me started on their lenses. They continue to lag behind third party lenses. Even after the mkll and mklll attempts!
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: kdsand on December 21, 2012, 06:34:33 PM
I don't understand why ppl get upset about firmware updates - generally I think they are a good thing. As fa as the shutter going out. Well that would suck but it is warrantied.

Can't really argue withe you about the lenses. Love my 40mm though its a great little thing & a good value. 
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: cliffwang on December 21, 2012, 06:42:16 PM
If I knew the camera would drop almost $1000 since release, I would have waited.
If I knew that I could purchase the camera for the same price that I did(at release) now, and get a free L lens... I would have waited
Point is, I believe that these price drops occured too soon.

Honestly, how many of you purchase items that drop this much of a price in 6 months?
when I purchase an iPhone, its the same price until... the next iphone comes out.

The flat screen TV that I purchased for $1500 when it came out almost a year ago, is till $1200

You know not ever smartphones can keep it value as good as iPhone.  Same thing here, camera price could drop very fast.  Remember the golden rule, supply and demand.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: redz1006 on December 21, 2012, 07:12:20 PM
As photography is just my hobby, I usually am not an early adopter.

Everyone knows price would drop several months after initial release or when a new model is about to come out.

Bought my T2I when the T4I was about to be released and got a pretty good deal.

At the rate these prices are falling, I might just have a new FF body or 7D in the bag before the end of the year.

So....I'm not complaining at all !!! Pretty sure there are a lot of us out there too.....

Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: agierke on December 21, 2012, 09:20:40 PM
do you complain about the depreciation of your car after you drive it off the dealerships lot? because that is alot worse than what any of the camera companies are doing.

this is not a new trend....its the primary reason i dont buy camera gear within the first year of its release. sry you feel burned, but this is how it goes and its been this way for a while.

chalk it up to a learning experience and show a little patience next time.

Which car are you talking about?
By the way, many people know cars will depreciate and for the most part you can pretty much KNOW how much in how long.
Did you know that this camera would loose over 25% of it's value in 6 months?
With the car, you can make a decision based on an educated assumption.

yes i knew the camera would drop in price within the first 6 months to a year. just like every other camera model has in the last 10 years. how much it dropped did not matter to me.

i am a pro so i make my purchases based on the need of my business and what my business can sustain. these are professional tools for me to make money. i also love photography and am blown away at the advancements of the technology in such a short time while continuing to get GREATER value for LESS MONEY.

i am very happy to see more and more people enjoying digital photography but it is downright annoying to hear people complaining about the price or performance of PROFESSIONAL LEVEL gear (especially non pros). it smacks of entitlement. these cameras and lenses are high performance tools that are blowing away what was possible even 5 years ago.

these are TOOLS not INVESTMENTS. if your portfolio drops in value by 25% i can certainly understand being upset. but the 5d mrk 3 has the SAME VALUE as it did the day it was released because it is still capable of the SAME PERFORMANCE. if you were unaware of the trend of price drops in the first 12 months...well now you know and you wont make the same mistake next time.

you have a phenomenal tool that is capable of providing great photographic opportunities. ENJOY IT.

back to the car comparison...if you bought a brand new Ferrari at 100k and a year later it was only worth 75k would it be any less bad-ass? the answer is no.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: verysimplejason on December 21, 2012, 11:07:50 PM
My biggest complaint about what Canon has been dishing out with their DSLR's in the past 5yrs or so, is that you can almost depend that they are not going to work right out of the box. You need to wait for several firmware upgrades, and even then the problem may not be fixed. I was VERY discouraged when my 40D stopped working due to a bad shutter after a couple of years. As I read more about that particular problem, it was pretty common. Thats not good.

And dont get me started on their lenses. They continue to lag behind third party lenses. Even after the mkll and mklll attempts!

:)  Working right out of the box, they will.  Problem is they might have bugs.  Just the same with a lot of cameras and even program applications.  Most of it are from software which is created by imperfect human beings.  I understand that part because I'm a programmer also.  I know programs as much as we wanted them to be perfect are prone to human errors.  Maybe you are complaining of 5D3?  As for your 40D, how many years are we talking about and how many actuation?  40D has a rated shutter life of 100K +/-.  If shutter failed within warranty period, they replace it.   As for the lenses, maybe their lenses lag in some areas but are still comparable to competition.  I think your only gripe should be at the prices.  That and their UWA offerings.  Only Nikon has a better one and Samyang (in some ways) though without AF.  Almost all their short focal length with IS iteration are good to excellent.   What I'm really happy with Canon is their after-sales support.  I can get free sensor cleaning and AF adjustment (since my 500D doesn't have AFMA).
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: jebrady03 on December 21, 2012, 11:11:59 PM
I didn't read all of the posts (sorry, don't have the time) but I always laugh when I see people say they've paid for a new camera body by the jobs they've gotten.  I honestly can't say I've EVER heard of a client sitting in front of a photographer saying "hey, are you shooting with the 5D2, or 5D3?  Oh, the 5D2?  I'm outta here.  If you had the 5D3, I'd give you my money."
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: tron on December 21, 2012, 11:16:58 PM
but if it hurts your fanboy feelings when people dare to say that canon gear is overpriced... i beg your pardon but that´s what many people think.
It is overpriced but it is our choice whether to buy or not and what item to buy and when. So what's the point of whining?

Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: verysimplejason on December 22, 2012, 12:02:37 AM
but if it hurts your fanboy feelings when people dare to say that canon gear is overpriced... i beg your pardon but that´s what many people think.
It is overpriced but it is our choice whether to buy or not and what item to buy and when. So what's the point of whining?

+1 on overpriced but that's because they can.  There are third party lenses and even Nikon or Sony if you're not satisfied with Canon's pricing.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Renegade Runner on December 22, 2012, 12:22:34 AM
And i'll be pissed when the 6D drops to $1600 by summer.  Oh well.  That's why I don't bother looking at the price again of a product once I purchase it.  Too depressing.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: verysimplejason on December 22, 2012, 12:30:48 AM
And i'll be pissed when the 6D drops to $1600 by summer.  Oh well.  That's why I don't bother looking at the price again of a product once I purchase it.  Too depressing.

Then why not buy it only by summer?  You've still got the very good Ti1.  :)
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Renegade Runner on December 22, 2012, 01:10:32 AM
And i'll be pissed when the 6D drops to $1600 by summer.  Oh well.  That's why I don't bother looking at the price again of a product once I purchase it.  Too depressing.

Then why not buy it only by summer?  You've still got the very good Ti1.  :)

I am one of those people who has to be one of the first to buy a new product.  My rebel still works well.  I just wanted to upgrade and introduce myself to the world of full frame.  No regrets.  I could never have waited until summer.  Just a sickness I have.  ;D
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Chosenbydestiny on December 22, 2012, 02:26:55 AM
I didn't read all of the posts (sorry, don't have the time) but I always laugh when I see people say they've paid for a new camera body by the jobs they've gotten.  I honestly can't say I've EVER heard of a client sitting in front of a photographer saying "hey, are you shooting with the 5D2, or 5D3?  Oh, the 5D2?  I'm outta here.  If you had the 5D3, I'd give you my money."

I don't think anyone on this thread said that. But if you're putting food on the table with a photography career it's very important to know how competitive you need to be in order to deliver modern results. We're not living in caves anymore, so people know what to expect from results, if not the camera. Not everyone can shoot the same camera past 150,000 clicks or so for 4-5 years without compromise. My 5D2's shutter died on the job, thankfully I had my 5D classic (which surprisingly outlasted my old mark II) and the shutter replacement through Canon cost about half as much as the body's current pricing. I had the option to send it in for 2-3 weeks and a risked delay, or buy a new body to take care of all my bookings. Well, realizing the fact that I'd be shooting a new body for an x amount of years for a heavy amount of shutter duty, another 5D2 would put me yet another generation behind and give me the same results. Most importantly, look at where I said "x amount of years, heavy shutter use". Lets put performance and image quality aside. The 5D2 is still a great camera today, and in some cases, so is my 5D classic. I can still do my job with them. But in the end, you have to deliver results. The more results you deliver will move you towards more and better clients. Photos are so viral, one bad photo because you "had to settle due to iso and af limitations" can easily turn what should have been a referral into an "awww, our wine toasting shot could have been nicer if this particular shot was in focus or if this one wasnt so grainy". I'm getting a lot more keepers on my 5D mark III than I ever did in past generations of cameras. More keepers will keep up with modern demands. Was it worth buying early? Hell yes it was. My workflow got faster both on the field and in post, even if just that it's worth the money for the next 4-5 years.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Hillsilly on December 22, 2012, 04:11:23 AM
I know being a professional photographer is very competitive, but I don't know if camera choice is that relevant.  At work, we regularly engage photographers for assignments.  And I see a wide variety of equipment used.  The majority are using 5Dii's and 1 series bodies.  I saw my first 5Diii only a month or so ago.  But I've seen rebels being used.  There was even a bloke who turned up with a Nikon!  Generally, when we're meeting photographers, just out of curiosity, one of the first questions is "what type of camera do you have?".  I remember one girl who said a 500D.  It raised an eyebrow, but a quick meeting made it clear that she knew her stuff and a car full of lighting equipment reinforced this.  At the end of the day, we put our trust in the photographer to deliver.  And a professional photographer generally will.  To us, it more important that the photographer understands what we want than the camera they use. (....although...admittedly....if you have a 1Dx, Hasselblad, etc it does make a very good first impression).

We've used the Nikon guy for a few jobs.  Shows how little the marketplace cares about the camera used.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: sandymandy on December 22, 2012, 06:00:01 AM
Shows how little the marketplace cares about the camera used.

Cause it doesnt matter as long as ur camera is not vintage old. For good impressions you can always go boy broken 1DX or Hasselblad props. Just say its your "2nd body just in case"  8)


Quote
I am one of those people who has to be one of the first to buy a new product.  My rebel still works well.  I just wanted to upgrade and introduce myself to the world of full frame.  No regrets.  I could never have waited until summer.  Just a sickness I have.  ;D

Its not a sickness, you are just too fearful that you will miss something if u buy late :P
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Plato the Wise on December 22, 2012, 09:06:46 AM
I don't want anyone to think I am a fanboy - but I don't think the 5D Miii is way overpriced.

When I first started shooting digital circa 2000, making the shift from film, I switched from Nikon 35mm to canon 10D. Since the,  I have been tied to the system I had decided was best at the time. Each camera from that time has offered excellent image quality and features, all on par or in some cases better than Nikon.

Fast forward to 2012, and I was an early adopter of the 5D miii. Knowing full well that the price would drop, I took the risk to get a camera that on paper boasted all of the features I was looking for. I have not regretted my decision one bit. The camera is astonishingly good, allowing me to shoot in situations that were impossible with previous cameras.

Is the price high? Yes. But it is worth every penny. I have the 5D Mii, which I thought was really great when I bought it. The Miii is leaps and bounds better. Even the build feels more solid.

Innovation and higher standards cost more money. And other than the 1DX, this is the best camera Canon has ever offered and at half the price of the flagship model.

Is it better than the Nikon D800? I honestly don't know - and don't care. I have too many lenses and flashes to even think about switching systems. As someone else stated earlier - if you can't afford it - then it is not the right camera for you. Be happy with what you have and create the best work you can.

 In the end, no one cares if you shot a master work with a Rebel or a D800 or 1DX. Other than fellow photographers, no one has ever asked me what camera I shot a great photo with.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: CharlieB on December 22, 2012, 09:22:49 AM
digital cameras are not investments and that if you were a business owning them then you would be writing off a sizeable fraction of the capital cost each year due to this.

From About.com

"Double Declining Balance Depreciation
The double declining balance depreciation method is like the straight-line method on steroids. To use it, accountants first calculate depreciation as if they were using the straight line method. They then figure out the total percentage of the asset that is depreciated the first year and double it. Each subsequent year, that same percentage is multiplied by the remaining balance to be depreciated. At some point, the value will be lower than the straight-line charge, at which point, the double declining method will be scrapped and straight line used for the remainder of the asset’s life (got all that?). An illustration may help.

In our straight-line example, we calculated that a $5,000 computer with a $200 salvage value and an estimated useful life of three years would be depreciated by $1,600 annually. The first year, we have to compare this to the total amount to be depreciated, in this case, $4,800 ($5,000 base - $200 salvage value = $4,800). Dividing $1,600 by $4,800, we discover the straight-line depreciation charge of $1,600 is 33.33% of the total depreciation amount of $4,800. Using this information, we double the 33.33% figure to 66.67%.

In the first year, we would take $4,800 multiplied by .6667 to get a total depreciation charge of approximately $3,200. In the second year, we would take the same percentage (66.67%) and multiply it by the remaining amount to be depreciated. Continuing with the example, we find that $1,600 is the remaining amount to be depreciated at the start of the second year ($4,800 - $3,200 = $1,600). Multiply 1,600 by .6667 to get $1,066. This is the depreciation charge for the second year – or not! Remember that once the depreciation charges dip below the amount that would be charged using the straight-line method, the double declining balance is scrapped and straight line immediately utilized. The straight line method called for charges of $1,600 per year. Obviously, the $1,066 charge is smaller than the $1,600 that would have occurred under straight line. Thus, the deprecation charge for the second year would be $1,600.

For those of you who love algebra, you may find it easier to use this equation:

Double Declining Balance Depreciation Method Formula
Depreciation Base * (2 * 100% / Useful Life of Asset in Years) "

(above quote cited under Fair-Use doctrine)
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: FatDaddyJones on December 22, 2012, 10:49:38 AM
Sorry for your pain, man, but I'm super glad that the price dropped, cause I just purchased a 5D3 that was almost $1000 less than MSRP. I've been holding out for a deal like this for a long time. I'm sure it will go down in value later, but I'm gonna get my money's worth out of it. Which, I think, should be everybody's attitude, no matter what you paid for your equipment, get your money's worth out of it! It's like going to an all you can eat buffet. Pig out! Then go back for more.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Zen on December 22, 2012, 07:02:44 PM
In spite of the unusual political atmosphere in which the US are mired, I haven't heard that they have yet passed a law requiring anyone to buy any new Canon product.

If you looked at the price, maybe gulped a bit, but STILL bought it, you have no complaint coming. It was YOUR decision to buy, so if anyone is to blame, look in the mirror.

Why not just enjoy it . . .  ::)
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: kdsand on December 22, 2012, 09:06:51 PM
Did that make you feel better?

My primary income is from investments. I really have no personal feelings when it comes to taking a loss on something. It's business.

Lol
Lol
 ;)

Then you should understand that when it comes to electronics such as digital cameras are not investments and that if you were a business owning them then you would be writing off a sizeable fraction of the capital cost each year due to this.

On the other hand, if you actually thought that digital cameras were worthy of being an investment and you do investments for other people as a profession then I'm hella glad that I'm not your client and have pity on those that are!
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Renegade Runner on December 22, 2012, 11:51:59 PM
Canon can, will and continue to screw us. 
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: bdunbar79 on December 22, 2012, 11:56:50 PM
Canon can, will and continue to screw us.

Awww, you poor thing.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Renegade Runner on December 23, 2012, 12:13:18 AM
Canon can, will and continue to screw us.

Awww, you poor thing.

Not complaining.  Just stating the truth.  I enjoy being screwed by big companies.  Don't you?
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: bdunbar79 on December 23, 2012, 12:55:34 AM
Canon can, will and continue to screw us.

Awww, you poor thing.

Not complaining.  Just stating the truth.  I enjoy being screwed by big companies.  Don't you?

How exactly is Canon screwing you over?
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Renegade Runner on December 23, 2012, 01:51:45 AM
Canon can, will and continue to screw us.

Awww, you poor thing.

Not complaining.  Just stating the truth.  I enjoy being screwed by big companies.  Don't you?

How exactly is Canon screwing you over?

By over pricing their products.  I am aware that I am being charged too much. But I don't care.  I will continue to buy Canon.

As a Canon user you must know you are paying quite a bit for their product.  You may not care, but it is true.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Mark1 on December 23, 2012, 03:29:04 AM
Personally I love what Canon brings to the market but their prices for new gear of late has been outrageous. I haven't been stung - I bought a 5dMK2 just as the 5D3 came out so actually I got a good deal. I wouldnt spend that much on a body - much rather have last year's body and a top lens.

My biggest concern is for people who bought the 5D3 thinking it was the replacement for the 5D2, so they bought it and then Canon announce the 6D. I thought that was borderline misleading the customer, particularly as the 5D3 was significantly more expensive but carried the 5D lineage.

Also the 6D has built in wifi and GPS - that's got to be a kick in the balls for some 5D3 owners.

Make no mistake - Canon is charging its customers for the lost revenue caused by the 2011 tsunami.

I don't like it and I don't love Canon like I might but the next best option is Nikon and their lens range is crap in comparrison to Canon's. 
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: prjkt on December 23, 2012, 08:59:57 AM
Personally I love what Canon brings to the market but their prices for new gear of late has been outrageous. I haven't been stung - I bought a 5dMK2 just as the 5D3 came out so actually I got a good deal. I wouldnt spend that much on a body - much rather have last year's body and a top lens.

My biggest concern is for people who bought the 5D3 thinking it was the replacement for the 5D2, so they bought it and then Canon announce the 6D. I thought that was borderline misleading the customer, particularly as the 5D3 was significantly more expensive but carried the 5D lineage.

Also the 6D has built in wifi and GPS - that's got to be a kick in the balls for some 5D3 owners.

Make no mistake - Canon is charging its customers for the lost revenue caused by the 2011 tsunami.

I don't like it and I don't love Canon like I might but the next best option is Nikon and their lens range is crap in comparrison to Canon's. 

err, the 5D III DID replace the 5D II, if you note the price on release, both were about the same (counting inflation/currency variation over time) - it was pretty much what every 5D II user wanted the camera to be. 6D is a new line entirely, aimed at the more budget conscious, without the build quality and "pro" features expected of a 5 series. Just because the price of the 6D on release is closer to the 5D II at the end of its life doesn't make it a replacement...
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Ewinter on December 23, 2012, 02:56:43 PM
Personally, I like Canon for their customer support. They've been fantastic to me
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Axilrod on December 23, 2012, 03:41:37 PM
Sorry for your pain, man, but I'm super glad that the price dropped, cause I just purchased a 5D3 that was almost $1000 less than MSRP. I've been holding out for a deal like this for a long time

Yeah 6 months is an eternity ::)
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Axilrod on December 23, 2012, 03:43:26 PM
By over pricing their products.  I am aware that I am being charged too much. But I don't care.  I will continue to buy Canon.

As a Canon user you must know you are paying quite a bit for their product.  You may not care, but it is true.

Isn't the idea that something is "overpriced" kind of subjective? 
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: ChilledXpress on December 23, 2012, 04:30:42 PM
Quote
I don't like it and I don't love Canon like I might but the next best option is Nikon and their lens range is crap in comparrison to Canon's. 

is that so...?

care to explain why.. and how can joe mcnally be such a better photographer then you ...with all these crap lenses?

Just goes to show, excellent photographers can get great images with subpar lenses... ;)
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Ewinter on December 23, 2012, 05:55:07 PM
I think professionally, camera kit doesn't really devalue all that much.
Say I sell a $3000 camera second hand for $2000.
I've lost $1000, but I'm damn sure that when I'm upgrading a camera it'll make a significant enough difference to my business that that $1000 I've lost is peanuts compared to my profits.
The same idea follows for shutter replacements too.

I went from a rebel xti to a 7d. My 7d paid for itself, extra lenses, flashes, studio gear and my bills in the first year.
The only way I'd make a loss on it is if I paid someone to take it
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Mark1 on December 23, 2012, 06:05:21 PM
Quote
I don't like it and I don't love Canon like I might but the next best option is Nikon and their lens range is crap in comparrison to Canon's. 

is that so...?

care to explain why.. and how can joe mcnally be such a better photographer then you ...with all these crap lenses?

Sorry, I don't know who Joe Mcnally is and whether he is a better photographer than me. Perhaps he is a god to some and not to others - photography is such a subjective interest isn't it. My point regarding Nikon's lenses is that their range is crap in comparrison to Canon's. Look at all the popular primes and zooms from both parties and compare them. Canon's RANGE is vastly superior - perhaps that's a subjective statement too. I'm not a fanboy and could happily switch if I felt someone else were producing a better product but they aren't. Bodies - maybe but lense range - not. 
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: bdunbar79 on December 23, 2012, 06:07:18 PM
Quote
I don't like it and I don't love Canon like I might but the next best option is Nikon and their lens range is crap in comparrison to Canon's. 

is that so...?

care to explain why.. and how can joe mcnally be such a better photographer then you ...with all these crap lenses?

Sorry, I don't know who Joe Mcnally is and whether he is a better photographer than me. Perhaps he is a god to some and not to others - photography is such a subjective interest isn't it. My point regarding Nikon's lenses is that their range is crap in comparrison to Canon's. Look at all the popular primes and zooms from both parties and compare them. Canon's RANGE is vastly superior - perhaps that's a subjective statement too. I'm not a fanboy and could happily switch if I felt someone else were producing a better product but they aren't. Bodies - maybe but lense range - not.

Exactly.  Who the hell's Joe McNally?
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: bdunbar79 on December 23, 2012, 07:12:39 PM
who in hell are you?
http://portfolio.joemcnally.com/#mi=1&pt=0&pi=2&p=-1&a=-1&at=0 (http://portfolio.joemcnally.com/#mi=1&pt=0&pi=2&p=-1&a=-1&at=0)

Ok, sorry, wrong phrasing.  I should have said, "Who cares?"  That better?
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: neuroanatomist on December 23, 2012, 07:15:28 PM
Who the hell's Joe McNally?

Bob Rand's buddy - they go around taking pictures of maps and globes.

 ;)
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: bdunbar79 on December 23, 2012, 07:17:37 PM
Who the hell's Joe McNally?

Bob Rand's buddy - they go around taking pictures of maps and globes.

 ;)

Haha!  Classic.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Hobby Shooter on December 23, 2012, 09:33:30 PM
Who the hell's Joe McNally?

Bob Rand's buddy - they go around taking pictures of maps and globes.

 ;)


I looked through some of the legends portraits. I recognized a few of the photos so he would probably be quite big. Some of the stuff was great. It's not his fault he ended up in this thread.


Haha!  Classic.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Don Haines on December 24, 2012, 06:29:00 PM
A camera is an investment??? Perhaps twenty years ago..... Now they are like a computer, they are a rapidly depreciating expendable item. Like a computer, in five years it is obsolete and needs to be replaced.... Resale value zero.

I think I'll go out and invest in a tank of gas and a bag of potato chips.... Wonder what they will be worth in 2023?
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: tron on December 24, 2012, 07:54:10 PM
I think I'll go out and invest in a tank of gas and a bag of potato chips.... Wonder what they will be worth in 2023?
They will be worth a 2009 Digital SLR  ;D
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: neuroanatomist on December 24, 2012, 08:25:13 PM
I think I'll go out and invest in... a bag of potato chips.... Wonder what they will be worth in 2023?

I dunno...have you seen the price of Twinkies lately?!?   :P
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Daniel Flather on December 25, 2012, 01:07:47 AM
I think I'll go out and invest in... a bag of potato chips.... Wonder what they will be worth in 2023?

I dunno...have you seen the price of Twinkies lately?!?   :P

Yeah, but twinkies are the best bet, as they ever expire. 
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Renegade Runner on December 25, 2012, 02:20:04 AM
I think I'll go out and invest in... a bag of potato chips.... Wonder what they will be worth in 2023?

I dunno...have you seen the price of Twinkies lately?!?   :P

Yeah, but twinkies are the best bet, as they ever expire.

Hold onto those twinkies and other Hostess products.  Could be worth big bucks if the company goes bankrupt.  :)  You will have a collectors item one day.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Don Haines on December 25, 2012, 06:21:06 AM
Investment time... Canon comes out with  the 5D III. Person A invests in the camera body, in ten years time the camera has gone from $3500 to being sold used for $200

Person B invests in $3500 worth of beer, drinks it all, and throws the empties in the garage. in ten years time the empties are worth $500.......

Moral of the story, beer is a better investment than digital camera bodies.... So go make that higher return investment and have a merry christmas
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: rpt on December 25, 2012, 07:07:03 AM
Investment time... Canon comes out with  the 5D III. Person A invests in the camera body, in ten years time the camera has gone from $3500 to being sold used for $200

Person B invests in $3500 worth of beer, drinks it all, and throws the empties in the garage. in ten years time the empties are worth $500.......

Moral of the story, beer is a better investment than digital camera bodies.... So go make that higher return investment and have a merry christmas
Now! You tell this to me now? Not in April when I was about to pull the trigger? Man! I lost $300 in 2022 already!
 ;)

That is brilliant! You are very funny. :)
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Krob78 on December 30, 2012, 12:17:35 AM
Investment time... Canon comes out with  the 5D III. Person A invests in the camera body, in ten years time the camera has gone from $3500 to being sold used for $200

Person B invests in $3500 worth of beer, drinks it all, and throws the empties in the garage. in ten years time the empties are worth $500.......

Moral of the story, beer is a better investment than digital camera bodies.... So go make that higher return investment and have a merry christmas
So I invested $1800 in my 7D almost 3 years ago, made $20,000 dollars with it and now may sell it for $1,000... So did I loose $800 with it or profit and make $19,200 with it? 
Ya, it was a good investment.. short term, not long term... And way more fun than a CD or Mutual Fund!

So I invested in a 5D MK III... see how that investment works out in the short term... oh, plus I wrote off the entire 7D...   Seems better than twinkies and beer!
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: StepBack on December 30, 2012, 10:38:04 AM
As an investor one should know something about pricing and marketing and not act so naive. BTW, when Christmas rolls around the stores have an incentive to lower prices.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: dan on December 30, 2012, 05:07:21 PM
If you are an early adopter, you will get burn with price.  That is a fact of life, regardless of what industry you are buying stuff from.  In the electronic industry, you will get double burn because things advance so quickly in this industry compare to any other.

If u dont want to get burn, dont be an early adopter.  Wait 6 months or a year.  It is not the end of the world if u dont have the latest gadget.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: HurtinMinorKey on December 30, 2012, 05:43:46 PM
The notion of Canon screwing its customers over is laughable.  Are they forcing anyone to buy their products? Did they fail to meet some agreement made at the time of purchase? Presumably, customers are willing participants in transactions, so we must assume that customers feel as if they are made better off by these transactions.

So unless you can claim that Canon has deliberately tried to deceive their customers, i don't see how you can claim that anyone is getting screwed over.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: bdunbar79 on December 30, 2012, 05:50:51 PM
The notion of Canon screwing its customers over is laughable.  Are they forcing anyone to buy their products? Did they fail to meet some agreement made at the time of purchase? Presumably, customers are willing participants in transactions, so we must assume that customers feel as if they are made better off by these transactions.

So unless you can claim that Canon has deliberately tried to deceive their customers, i don't see how you can claim that anyone is getting screwed over.

It's a larger problem of modern day society.  There is no accountability for one's actions and it's always someone else's fault.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Krob78 on December 30, 2012, 06:12:51 PM
The notion of Canon screwing its customers over is laughable.  Are they forcing anyone to buy their products? Did they fail to meet some agreement made at the time of purchase? Presumably, customers are willing participants in transactions, so we must assume that customers feel as if they are made better off by these transactions.

So unless you can claim that Canon has deliberately tried to deceive their customers, i don't see how you can claim that anyone is getting screwed over.
+1  You got that right! 

It's a larger problem of modern day society.  There is no accountability for one's actions and it's always someone else's fault.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: rpt on December 30, 2012, 09:36:19 PM
The notion of Canon screwing its customers over is laughable.  Are they forcing anyone to buy their products? Did they fail to meet some agreement made at the time of purchase? Presumably, customers are willing participants in transactions, so we must assume that customers feel as if they are made better off by these transactions.

So unless you can claim that Canon has deliberately tried to deceive their customers, i don't see how you can claim that anyone is getting screwed over.
+1  You got that right! 

It's a larger problem of modern day society.  There is no accountability for one's actions and it's always someone else's fault.
I can't believe we are still screwing around with this topic! :)
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: rlarsen on December 31, 2012, 01:43:53 AM
There are so many new cameras to choose from, and the internet makes finding and buying used gear convenient. Even finding discount pricing is fairly easy with online searches.

No need to get grumpy with Canon, there are plenty of options for the consumer and this website helps photographers make educated decisions.

Actually the price of quality, high-res, large file-size Canon bodies has come way down. Many photographers use them instead of really expensive large- format digital cameras.

For years I used 1-D MKll bodies. They cost just under $4000. My new 5D MK lll bodies are in many ways a hell of a lot better and cost less.

Thanks Canon.

( I do wish I had the option to pay less for cameras without video. I don't use it so I'm not thrilled about paying for that feature. )
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Faxon on January 02, 2013, 10:32:41 PM
Well, I bought a few L series lenses a few years ago, and most of them have increased in value. It's the bodies that diminish in price. Naturally so, since the sensors keep getting better.  That's one of the regrets I have regarding digital photography. Back when I bought my first Nikon F, I felt it would always be there for me. It was. Right up to the point when I bought the Canon 20D.  I would never buy a Leica M9, since it will be worth quite a bit less in five years in my opinion. 
It's the nature of the technology. I wish I only had to buy new film to get the benefit of the latest technology. And my Nikon F made ME focus the lens.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Radiating on January 03, 2013, 01:15:16 AM
Well, I bought a few L series lenses a few years ago, and most of them have increased in value. It's the bodies that diminish in price. Naturally so, since the sensors keep getting better.  That's one of the regrets I have regarding digital photography. Back when I bought my first Nikon F, I felt it would always be there for me. It was. Right up to the point when I bought the Canon 20D.  I would never buy a Leica M9, since it will be worth quite a bit less in five years in my opinion. 
It's the nature of the technology. I wish I only had to buy new film to get the benefit of the latest technology. And my Nikon F made ME focus the lens.

The point is NOT that gear depreciates. This is a given and you have to accept that.

The point is that Canon is playing pricing games, like neither they nor Nikon has ever done before, and they are pricing their products 20% higher for the first 6 months than is "normal". This means your depreciation goes from 1% per month to 5% per month.

Nothing depreciates that fast. Not even a car when it's driven off the lot. It's mind blowing.

It's so crazy that it would almost as expensive to RENT the camera as to buy it.  :o

In fact if cars companies took pricing from Canon's recent products, you'd be paying $1,000 a month to lease the redesigned 2013 Honda Civic.

So it's not the depreciation, it's the incredible level of depreciation.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: kubelik on January 03, 2013, 09:51:28 AM
It's so crazy that it would almost as expensive to RENT the camera as to buy it.  :o

In fact if cars companies took pricing from Canon's recent products, you'd be paying $1,000 a month to lease the redesigned 2013 Honda Civic.

if you were to "RENT", not lease, a Honda Civic ... it DOES cost you $1,000 a month.  in the real world.  what's the point here?
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: agierke on January 03, 2013, 10:12:54 AM
Quote
The point is that Canon is playing pricing games, like neither they nor Nikon has ever done before, and they are pricing their products 20% higher for the first 6 months than is "normal". This means your depreciation goes from 1% per month to 5% per month.

so don't buy a lens right when its released. wait til the price normalizes. its not that hard....

no one is forcing you to buy these products.

i never buy any product upon its release....ever. i wait, until prices drop and preferably when there are rebates available or a sale. its easy. try it.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: neuroanatomist on January 03, 2013, 10:15:42 AM
...wait, until prices drop and preferably when there are rebates available or a sale. its easy. try it.

Meh.  It's much more fun to buy a product right when it's released, then when the price drops a few months later, go to an internet forum and bitch about how bad I got ripped off.   ::)
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: bdunbar79 on January 03, 2013, 10:28:02 AM
...wait, until prices drop and preferably when there are rebates available or a sale. its easy. try it.

Meh.  It's much more fun to buy a product right when it's released, then when the price drops a few months later, go to an internet forum and bitch about how bad I got ripped off.   ::)

Apparently so.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: HurtinMinorKey on January 03, 2013, 10:40:07 AM
The point is that Canon is playing pricing games, like neither they nor Nikon has ever done before, and they are pricing their products 20% higher for the first 6 months than is "normal". This means your depreciation goes from 1% per month to 5% per month.

It's called intertemporal price discrimination, and it's been around for a long time in many different durable goods markets. 

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3439170?uid=3739800&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21101491313133 (http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3439170?uid=3739800&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21101491313133)
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: glongstaff on January 03, 2013, 11:59:59 AM
As I have said before....the other issue is the pricing policy per market region (whoever it may be) and in some way Canon controls this via the sales & distribution plus control authorised dealers.

Even accounting for shipping, VAT or Sales Taxes etc......if you look at the Asia, Europe, UK, USA markets the pricing markups / concessions are ridiculous between the markets......

And before someone says it jokingly..'it's not viable to move!!'   :-*

There needs to be some sort of level playing field, one where customer loyalty comes higher on the chain!
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: neuroanatomist on January 03, 2013, 12:12:50 PM
There needs to be some sort of level playing field...

Why?

Keep in mind that each geography (e.g. Canon USA or Canon Europe) operates as a separate business unit within Canon, each responsible for maintaining their own profitability.  That's why warranty policies, service policies, sales of refurbished units, and pricing differ from country to country. 
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: ahab1372 on January 03, 2013, 12:29:38 PM

There needs to be some sort of level playing field, one where customer loyalty comes higher on the chain!
Yes! I think congress should step in, and the UN! Teach Canon some manners, and protect us gear addicts from their screwing games! No lens should cost more than $999, and prices should never go up or down! Rebates are an insult for those who bought before the rebates came into effect!
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Don Haines on January 03, 2013, 12:34:57 PM
There needs to be some sort of level playing field...

Why?

Keep in mind that each geography (e.g. Canon USA or Canon Europe) operates as a separate business unit within Canon, each responsible for maintaining their own profitability.  That's why warranty policies, service policies, sales of refurbished units, and pricing differ from country to country.
and don't forget import duties, meeting local electrical standards, and different wages paid to sales staff....
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Don Haines on January 03, 2013, 12:37:58 PM
and why are we not hearing the complaints from those who recently bought a 5DII, or a 60D, or a 7D at the "end of life sale". Why aren't those people demanding to pay launch prices? Life is so unfair to them :)
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: jrh on January 03, 2013, 12:48:42 PM
The point is that Canon is playing pricing games, like neither they nor Nikon has ever done before, and they are pricing their products 20% higher for the first 6 months than is "normal". This means your depreciation goes from 1% per month to 5% per month.

Wrong - depreciation is not the same as market value.  Go back to school and pay attention - you may be able to get a better job and you wont care about a $500 price reduction.  :)

Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: neuroanatomist on January 03, 2013, 01:16:16 PM
Wrong - depreciation is not the same as market value.  Go back to school and pay attention - you may be able to get a better job and you wont care about a $500 price reduction.  :)

+1.  I just sent a piece of scientific equipment to salvage.  Price new in December, 2008 was $250K.  Net book value (what it's currently worth based on depreciation) is $110K.  Fair market value is $7K.  And you thought your dSLR lost value fast... 

Now...who should I bitch to about that?  At least I'm not the one losing $103K...   ;)
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Zlatko on January 03, 2013, 01:26:35 PM
The point is that Canon is playing pricing games...

It's called "intertemporal price discrimination" (as someone noted above) and it's smart business.  They make lovely products and should make money on them.  That money pays for a lot of people and materials and facilities, which then help them make more lovely products.  We don't tell them how to price their cameras and they don't tell us how to price our photography — that seems like a fair arrangement.  If the prices really bother someone, there are plenty of other camera makers out there ... Nikon, Sony, Pentax, Olympus, Fuji, Leica ...  :D
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: dstppy on January 03, 2013, 02:16:47 PM
Wrong - depreciation is not the same as market value.  Go back to school and pay attention - you may be able to get a better job and you wont care about a $500 price reduction.  :)

+1.  I just sent a piece of scientific equipment to salvage.  Price new in December, 2008 was $250K.  Net book value (what it's currently worth based on depreciation) is $110K.  Fair market value is $7K.  And you thought your dSLR lost value fast... 

Now...who should I bitch to about that?  At least I'm not the one losing $103K...   ;)

By "Salvage" I hope you mean in a plain freight pallette c/o Grant Imahara, in California  ;D
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Don Haines on January 03, 2013, 02:43:40 PM
Wrong - depreciation is not the same as market value.  Go back to school and pay attention - you may be able to get a better job and you wont care about a $500 price reduction.  :)

+1.  I just sent a piece of scientific equipment to salvage.  Price new in December, 2008 was $250K.  Net book value (what it's currently worth based on depreciation) is $110K.  Fair market value is $7K.  And you thought your dSLR lost value fast... 

Now...who should I bitch to about that?  At least I'm not the one losing $103K...   ;)
I am laughing at this post.... We just got rid of 3 spectrum analyzers.. we paid 180K each for them and now we can't give them away... and then there are the polaroid cameras for taking pictures of scopes...... :)
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: picturesbyme on January 03, 2013, 03:19:02 PM
You can't give them away?
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: bdunbar79 on January 03, 2013, 03:39:01 PM
You can't give them away?

Believe it or not, it's tough to give away old stuff.  We had two mass specs that even two local universities didn't want.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: picturesbyme on January 03, 2013, 04:05:47 PM
You can't give them away?

Believe it or not, it's tough to give away old stuff.  We had two mass specs that even two local universities didn't want.

why not to list it on evilbay for $0.01+shipping? pretty sure it will be gone on the 7th day.

but back to the thread... no wait, that was enough for the day I rather go back to shoot/edit ;)

All the best.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: ScottyP on January 03, 2013, 04:11:11 PM
Maybe it actually is time to lock this thread.  The title is over the top negative, and that just brings out over-the-top responses from the True Believers in response.  And every time someone bumps it, it goes back to the front page/top posts all over again.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Zen on January 03, 2013, 04:13:09 PM
Here's an idea . . . Don't buy the da-- thing!!!
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: bdunbar79 on January 03, 2013, 04:25:17 PM
Maybe it actually is time to lock this thread.  The title is over the top negative, and that just brings out over-the-top responses from the True Believers in response.  And every time someone bumps it, it goes back to the front page/top posts all over again.

Oh the irony...
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Radiating on January 03, 2013, 10:55:21 PM
The point is that Canon is playing pricing games, like neither they nor Nikon has ever done before, and they are pricing their products 20% higher for the first 6 months than is "normal". This means your depreciation goes from 1% per month to 5% per month.

It's called intertemporal price discrimination, and it's been around for a long time in many different durable goods markets. 

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3439170?uid=3739800&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21101491313133 (http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3439170?uid=3739800&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21101491313133)

I'm an economic analyst so thanks for posting something relevant.

I think everyone here is horribly missing the point and this sort of ignorance is what lets these companies avoid initial backlash.

People have this ridiculous tendancy to blame buyers at every turn and think anyone who has issues has them of their own fault.

Look here is the absolute fact in this situation. The cost of owning Canon gear has increased by 4 fold over the long term. They are playing pricing games on their newest gear, and they are playing pricing games on their older gear. Everything from the 6D to the 24-70mm II to the 60D to the 5D III to the 5DII, to the 35mm/24/28 IS etc and even the 7D is going to cost much more to own.

The easiest way I can explain this is that this means that you just essentially paid $14,000 for your 5D Mark III, $4,000 for your 7D, $ 2,500 for your 60D, $7,000 for your 5D Mark II, and $9,000 for your 24-70mm Mk II etc.

What Canon has done is they have simply hidden the cost of ownership and made it so that you are essentially taking a long complex loan against yourself.

I could personally care less about their pricing games, I make enough to buy hundreds Canon pro bodies a year and have enough left over to live comfortably after throwing those in the trash, but I think it's worth taking note of this craziness.

This will backfire for Canon both from a supply and demand standpoint and from a customer sentiment standpoint. People aren't dumb and you can't leverage existing demand and think it will last forever if you destabilize the market. Once customers realize the true cost of owning the product is now 4 times greater, some sentiments will change.

Anyways I hope this is helpful, my purpose is simply to point out that this strategy is not economically viable.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: neuroanatomist on January 03, 2013, 11:23:14 PM
The easiest way I can explain this is that this means that you just essentially paid $14,000 for your 5D Mark III, $4,000 for your 7D, $ 2,500 for your 60D, $7,000 for your 5D Mark II, and $9,000 for your 24-70mm Mk II etc.

What Canon has done is they have simply hidden the cost of ownership and made it so that you are essentially taking a long complex loan against yourself.

Clearly, I'm not an economic analyst. Maybe if I was one, I could comprehend how a 5DII that I paid for with $2400 in cash, used for two years, then sold for $1500 in cash, somehow cost me a hidden $7000 that I loaned to myself.  I think I'll stick to elucidating the biochemical workings of the human brain, economics is too confusing.   :o
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: sanj on January 03, 2013, 11:29:23 PM
I could personally care less about their pricing games, I make enough to buy hundreds Canon pro bodies a year and have enough left over to live comfortably after throwing those in the trash, but I think it's worth taking note of this craziness.

Kind sir could I please inbox you my address for your trash purposes? Not that it would matter to you, but I would pay for postage. Thanks for your consideration.

And yeah, I agree that if a product price can come down within 5 months of its launch, then it was overpriced to begin with. I think that is what this thread is about....
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: David Hull on January 03, 2013, 11:49:14 PM
The easiest way I can explain this is that this means that you just essentially paid $14,000 for your 5D Mark III, $4,000 for your 7D, $ 2,500 for your 60D, $7,000 for your 5D Mark II, and $9,000 for your 24-70mm Mk II etc.

What Canon has done is they have simply hidden the cost of ownership and made it so that you are essentially taking a long complex loan against yourself.

Clearly, I'm not an economic analyst. Maybe if I was one, I could comprehend how a 5DII that I paid for with $2400 in cash, used for two years, then sold for $1500 in cash, somehow cost me a hidden $7000 that I loaned to myself.  I think I'll stick to elucidating the biochemical workings of the human brain, economics is too confusing.   :o

I couldn't have said THAT better myself.  I bought my 5DII for 2700, used it for 5 years, sold it for 1400.  It seems that the cost of ownership was 1300.  I read that guy's post and wondered what the heck he must be smoking.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: sanj on January 03, 2013, 11:50:57 PM
The easiest way I can explain this is that this means that you just essentially paid $14,000 for your 5D Mark III, $4,000 for your 7D, $ 2,500 for your 60D, $7,000 for your 5D Mark II, and $9,000 for your 24-70mm Mk II etc.

What Canon has done is they have simply hidden the cost of ownership and made it so that you are essentially taking a long complex loan against yourself.


Clearly, I'm not an economic analyst. Maybe if I was one, I could comprehend how a 5DII that I paid for with $2400 in cash, used for two years, then sold for $1500 in cash, somehow cost me a hidden $7000 that I loaned to myself.  I think I'll stick to elucidating the biochemical workings of the human brain, economics is too confusing.   :o

:) :) :)
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: bdunbar79 on January 03, 2013, 11:56:21 PM
The easiest way I can explain this is that this means that you just essentially paid $14,000 for your 5D Mark III, $4,000 for your 7D, $ 2,500 for your 60D, $7,000 for your 5D Mark II, and $9,000 for your 24-70mm Mk II etc.

What Canon has done is they have simply hidden the cost of ownership and made it so that you are essentially taking a long complex loan against yourself.

Clearly, I'm not an economic analyst. Maybe if I was one, I could comprehend how a 5DII that I paid for with $2400 in cash, used for two years, then sold for $1500 in cash, somehow cost me a hidden $7000 that I loaned to myself.  I think I'll stick to elucidating the biochemical workings of the human brain, economics is too confusing.   :o

I couldn't have said THAT better myself.  I read that guy's post and wondered what the heck he must be smoking.

Whatever he is smoking, I really need some.  That stuff must be REALLY good.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Orangutan on January 04, 2013, 12:20:37 AM
The cost of owning Canon gear has increased by 4 fold over the long term.
The easiest way I can explain this is that this means that you just essentially paid $14,000 for your 5D Mark III, $4,000 for your 7D, $ 2,500 for your 60D, $7,000 for your 5D Mark II, and $9,000 for your 24-70mm Mk II etc.
My 60D is a case of wine.  I paid $900 (I think) for it.  I will consume it, then it will be worth nothing.  If, perchance, I'm able to sell it for a few quid when I upgrade, so much the better.  Modern digital cameras are consumable items, not assets.

Quote
What Canon has done is they have simply hidden the cost of ownership
The cost of ownership is $900 for n years, where 0 < n <= 5.

Quote
taking a long complex loan against yourself.

OK, now you've got me curious: please try to explain this in a different way.

Quote
buy hundreds Canon pro bodies a year and have enough left over to live comfortably after throwing those in the trash
Please add me to your trash queue.

Quote
This will backfire for Canon... People aren't dumb
I find myself skeptical.

Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: jrh on January 04, 2013, 12:39:53 AM
"I'm an economic analyst so thanks for posting something relevant.

I think everyone here is horribly missing the point and this sort of ignorance is what lets these companies avoid initial backlash."


Really, an economic analyst who doesn't know the difference of depreciation and market value as you posted earlier!?!  Maybe you can explain why Canon's stock valuation has gone up 24.61% in the last 3 months???  I think A LOT of real economic analyst's would disagree with your assessment... but everyone seems to agree you are making an ass out of yourself.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Radiating on January 04, 2013, 02:13:07 AM
"I'm an economic analyst so thanks for posting something relevant.

I think everyone here is horribly missing the point and this sort of ignorance is what lets these companies avoid initial backlash."


Really, an economic analyst who doesn't know the difference of depreciation and market value as you posted earlier!?!  Maybe you can explain why Canon's stock valuation has gone up 24.61% in the last 3 months???  I think A LOT of real economic analyst's would disagree with your assessment... but everyone seems to agree you are making an ass out of yourself.

You know you have to be a real peice of work to try to insult someone who went to school for 10 years in 4 words with such certainty.



If you actually talk to Canon USA's internal folks (which I do because I take photography way too seriously as a hobby) you'll notice that they speak a lot more about marketing and economics. Whenever they talk about a product they are always talking from a market perspective. "Q:why did the 5d Mk III take so long to come out? A: Because knew we could keep selling the 5D Mk II, it was actually ready last year, but we just let it sit on the shelf until now, same with the 24-70mm Mk II" "Q:Why don't you release a updated 1Dx with f/8 AF points, A: because people will buy our cameras regardless, we aren't going to implement a feature if it's not going to be a money maker".

If you talk to the same Nikon reps you instead get the impression that they are actually trying to make the best product. "Q: Why are your lenses backwards compatible with 30 year old technology? A: Because we don't want to leave out photographers with older lenses".

Canon seemingly does not care about their clients, they care about making money and marketing, or more over exploiting the market, or so it would seem.

There's a popular economic theory that goes against most people's preconceptions of capitalism that has been backed up by numerous studies that shows that companies that have a corporate culture of expoiting customers tend to fare worse in terms of long term growth compared to companies that try to serve their customers. Think Apple as a prime example of companies that serve their customers and experience significant growth (this is regardless of price level and market dirupting products).



I couldn't have said THAT better myself.  I bought my 5DII for 2700, used it for 5 years, sold it for 1400.  It seems that the cost of ownership was 1300.  I read that guy's post and wondered what the heck he must be smoking.

Let's imagine that you purchased your 5D Mk. III at Canon's new markup and price slashing policy. That would mean you paid $3350 a few months ago and should sell it for $1300 in 5 years.

If you use historical pricing for the D700 as an indicator for the D800, then you'd pay $2700 for the body and sell it for $1700, as per the post release body pricing, and 5 year price based on the D700.

D800 cost of ownership = $1000
The 5D3 cost of ownership =$2050

Now, tell me how many Nikons you can own for the cost of ownership of 1 Canon over 5 years?
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: lola on January 04, 2013, 03:58:05 AM
The word "fanboy" just doesn't cut it anymore...
This forum is getting dumber and dumber every day...
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: FatDaddyJones on January 04, 2013, 04:43:09 AM
Please desist the thrashing of this deceased equine quadruped. It has neither redeeming value nor consequence.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: sanj on January 04, 2013, 04:55:58 AM
Which four words?
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: sanj on January 04, 2013, 05:33:37 AM
"Q:why did the 5d Mk III take so long to come out? A: Because knew we could keep selling the 5D Mk II, it was actually ready last year, but we just let it sit on the shelf until now, same with the 24-70mm Mk II" "Q:Why don't you release a updated 1Dx with f/8 AF points, A: because people will buy our cameras regardless, we aren't going to implement a feature if it's not going to be a money maker".

I know you trolling... I am playing along, and the above is something you made up.
So if you going to make something up, atleast make it sound plausible or else your troll ceases to be fun!
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: neuroanatomist on January 04, 2013, 06:32:30 AM
If you actually talk to Canon USA's internal folks (which I do because I take photography way too seriously as a hobby) you'll notice that they speak a lot more about marketing and economics. Whenever they talk about a product they are always talking from a market perspective.  "Q:Why don't you release a updated 1Dx with f/8 AF points, A: because people will buy our cameras regardless, we aren't going to implement a feature if it's not going to be a money maker".
Did you miss the fact that Canon added f/8 AF to the 1D X via a firmware update, just 4 months after the camera hit the streets?  How much money did Canon make from that firmware update?  So...either you made up that conversation, or you talked to some junior lackey with no clue about Canon's business operations.  "Hello, Canon 800-number operator, please put me through to the guy who washes the dishes in the commissary, I have important economic questions..."

Let's imagine that you purchased your 5D Mk. III at Canon's new markup and price slashing policy. That would mean you paid $3350 a few months ago and should sell it for $1300 in 5 years.

If you use historical pricing for the D700 as an indicator for the D800, then you'd pay $2700 for the body and sell it for $1700, as per the post release body pricing, and 5 year price based on the D700.

D800 cost of ownership = $1000
The 5D3 cost of ownership =$2050

Now, tell me how many Nikons you can own for the cost of ownership of 1 Canon over 5 years?
I'm an economic analyst....

The easiest way I can explain this is that this means that you just essentially paid $14,000 for your 5D Mark III...
So...if I buy a 5DIII, will it cost me $2,050 or $14,000?  As an economic analyst, do you often make predictions for the same indicator that vary by 683%?  Maybe you're the guy at S&P who made the $2 trillion mistake (http://www.treasury.gov/connect/blog/Pages/Just-the-Facts-SPs-2-Trillion-Mistake.aspx)?  Actually, given the laughter that resulted from reading your error-ridden troll posts, I suspect you're not a real economic analyst at all, but rather a stand up comic.  Ba-dum-bum-ching.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Rick on January 04, 2013, 07:06:27 AM
I am sure every witty and not so witty quip has been made in 13 pages of posts so I will take the opportunity to say that your numbers are wrong in the first place. Using eBay seller prices who are moving gray market cameras is wrong headed.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Rienzphotoz on January 04, 2013, 07:32:11 AM
I'm writing this post mainly to criticize Canon for it's recent outrageous pricing policies, and to simply say that they cannot keep doing what they are doing.

I was one of the first people to support Canon's new higher pricing due to the yen/dollar conversion, which in a way justified it, but now Canon seems to be actively trying to destabilize the market for their gear and alienate all of their customers.

The specific issue I am talking about are the huge price cuts and markups on their older and newer bodies.

Let's talk the last 3 months because this is the most relevant time frame.

3 months ago, buying a new 5D Mark III for $3400 was a bargain, and buying a new 5D Mark II for $2050 was a bargain, and buying a T4i for $750 was a bargain. So I got my 5DIII & 5D II (but waited on the t4i)

How much are these cameras worth 3 months later? $2500, $1300, & $480, and I picked up a new T4i for $480 today.

That's  $1920. Gone in 3 months. In depreciation. On $6000 of cameras.

Let's compare Nikon on the other hand. 3 months ago, the D800 new for $2800 was a bargain, now it's a bargain for $2450. With the Nikon D700, 3 months ago it went for $1650, now it's $1550, the D7000 went for $860, 3 months ago and now it's $780.

That's only $520 in depreciation. Which is nearly 4 times less than $1920.

Wow.

This means I could theoretically own nearly 12 Nikon bodies for what it costs to own 3 Canon ones with their new insane mark ups and mark downs.

Why is Canon seemingly actively screwing over it's buyers with insane price cuts, and equally insane introductory mark ups? The only reason I can come up with is that they want to lose customers and lose credibility.

Considering this insanity, I just don't feel comfortable buying any Canon gear any more. Based on this trend, the 24-70mm Mark II should hit $1600 by March, and then it's perfectly believable that when the 24-70mm f/4.0 IS Macro comes out, the 24-105mm which now sells for $750 will be sold for $520 within weeks or months from now. The 35mm f/2.0 IS which I was also interested in which goes for $849.99 now should go for $499 in March as well.

Canon may think themselves smart for playing pricing games, but they are trading brand loyalty and credibility for profit, which is not a sustainable strategy in the long run.
Many of us who bought 5D MK III at 3499 needed that camera ... we do not care if Canon decides to drop the price after a few months, so many others can also buy them. From what I can understand in your post is that you could have waited for the price to drop and did not really need the camera when you purchased it ... but if you really needed the 5D MK III and bought it at $3499, you have nothing to crib about. Canon are smarter than you think, they sold 5D MK III for $3499 because they knew that there was a demand and sure enough they were right. The official price drop for 5D MK III is only $500 ... you cannot blame Canon if some grey market outlets or limited special deals are selling it for a lot less.
Moral of the story: next time do not buy things when you don't need them. But if you do need something and paid a premium for being one of the first few to get it, then do not crib. 
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: sanj on January 04, 2013, 07:36:27 AM
I'm writing this post mainly to criticize Canon for it's recent outrageous pricing policies, and to simply say that they cannot keep doing what they are doing.

I was one of the first people to support Canon's new higher pricing due to the yen/dollar conversion, which in a way justified it, but now Canon seems to be actively trying to destabilize the market for their gear and alienate all of their customers.

The specific issue I am talking about are the huge price cuts and markups on their older and newer bodies.

Let's talk the last 3 months because this is the most relevant time frame.

3 months ago, buying a new 5D Mark III for $3400 was a bargain, and buying a new 5D Mark II for $2050 was a bargain, and buying a T4i for $750 was a bargain. So I got my 5DIII & 5D II (but waited on the t4i)

How much are these cameras worth 3 months later? $2500, $1300, & $480, and I picked up a new T4i for $480 today.

That's  $1920. Gone in 3 months. In depreciation. On $6000 of cameras.

Let's compare Nikon on the other hand. 3 months ago, the D800 new for $2800 was a bargain, now it's a bargain for $2450. With the Nikon D700, 3 months ago it went for $1650, now it's $1550, the D7000 went for $860, 3 months ago and now it's $780.

That's only $520 in depreciation. Which is nearly 4 times less than $1920.

Wow.

This means I could theoretically own nearly 12 Nikon bodies for what it costs to own 3 Canon ones with their new insane mark ups and mark downs.

Why is Canon seemingly actively screwing over it's buyers with insane price cuts, and equally insane introductory mark ups? The only reason I can come up with is that they want to lose customers and lose credibility.

Considering this insanity, I just don't feel comfortable buying any Canon gear any more. Based on this trend, the 24-70mm Mark II should hit $1600 by March, and then it's perfectly believable that when the 24-70mm f/4.0 IS Macro comes out, the 24-105mm which now sells for $750 will be sold for $520 within weeks or months from now. The 35mm f/2.0 IS which I was also interested in which goes for $849.99 now should go for $499 in March as well.

Canon may think themselves smart for playing pricing games, but they are trading brand loyalty and credibility for profit, which is not a sustainable strategy in the long run.
Many of us who bought 5D MK III at 3499 needed that camera ... we do not care if Canon decides to drop the price after a few months, so many others can also buy them. From what I can understand in your post is that you could have waited for the price to drop and did not really need the camera when you purchased it ... but if you really needed the 5D MK III and bought it at $3499, you have nothing to crib about. Canon are smarter than you think, they sold 5D MK III for $3499 because they knew that there was a demand and sure enough they were right. The official price drop for 5D MK III is only $500 ... you cannot blame Canon if some grey market outlets or limited special deals are selling it for a lot less.
Moral of the story: next time do not buy things when you don't need them. But if you do need something and paid a premium for being one of the first few to get it, then do not crib.

"Needed" the 5d3???
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Rienzphotoz on January 04, 2013, 07:38:20 AM
"Needed" the 5d3???
Yes!
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: sanj on January 04, 2013, 08:40:19 AM
:)
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: victorwol on January 04, 2013, 08:42:04 AM
I'm writing this post mainly to criticize Canon for it's recent outrageous pricing policies, and to simply say that they cannot keep doing what they are doing.

I was one of the first people to support Canon's new higher pricing due to the yen/dollar conversion, which in a way justified it, but now Canon seems to be actively trying to destabilize the market for their gear and alienate all of their customers.

The specific issue I am talking about are the huge price cuts and markups on their older and newer bodies.

Let's talk the last 3 months because this is the most relevant time frame.

3 months ago, buying a new 5D Mark III for $3400 was a bargain, and buying a new 5D Mark II for $2050 was a bargain, and buying a T4i for $750 was a bargain. So I got my 5DIII & 5D II (but waited on the t4i)

How much are these cameras worth 3 months later? $2500, $1300, & $480, and I picked up a new T4i for $480 today.

That's  $1920. Gone in 3 months. In depreciation. On $6000 of cameras.

Let's compare Nikon on the other hand. 3 months ago, the D800 new for $2800 was a bargain, now it's a bargain for $2450. With the Nikon D700, 3 months ago it went for $1650, now it's $1550, the D7000 went for $860, 3 months ago and now it's $780.

That's only $520 in depreciation. Which is nearly 4 times less than $1920.

Wow.

This means I could theoretically own nearly 12 Nikon bodies for what it costs to own 3 Canon ones with their new insane mark ups and mark downs.

Why is Canon seemingly actively screwing over it's buyers with insane price cuts, and equally insane introductory mark ups? The only reason I can come up with is that they want to lose customers and lose credibility.

Considering this insanity, I just don't feel comfortable buying any Canon gear any more. Based on this trend, the 24-70mm Mark II should hit $1600 by March, and then it's perfectly believable that when the 24-70mm f/4.0 IS Macro comes out, the 24-105mm which now sells for $750 will be sold for $520 within weeks or months from now. The 35mm f/2.0 IS which I was also interested in which goes for $849.99 now should go for $499 in March as well.

Canon may think themselves smart for playing pricing games, but they are trading brand loyalty and credibility for profit, which is not a sustainable strategy in the long run.
Many of us who bought 5D MK III at 3499 needed that camera ... we do not care if Canon decides to drop the price after a few months, so many others can also buy them. From what I can understand in your post is that you could have waited for the price to drop and did not really need the camera when you purchased it ... but if you really needed the 5D MK III and bought it at $3499, you have nothing to crib about. Canon are smarter than you think, they sold 5D MK III for $3499 because they knew that there was a demand and sure enough they were right. The official price drop for 5D MK III is only $500 ... you cannot blame Canon if some grey market outlets or limited special deals are selling it for a lot less.
Moral of the story: next time do not buy things when you don't need them. But if you do need something and paid a premium for being one of the first few to get it, then do not crib.

I totally agree... It happens with everything, offer and demand.... They can do it because they have demand for the product, I remember it was even difficult to get one... If you are dropping Canon just because of that, then may be you can do it, sell all your glass and bodies, lose more money on the operation, and buy all new again from Nikon... And see it dropping in price too... At the end you might even lose more money. Clever? Or just angry?
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: FatDaddyJones on January 04, 2013, 09:06:21 AM
As I said before... We're beating a dead horse.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: jrh on January 04, 2013, 09:08:34 AM
"You know you have to be a real peice of work to try to insult someone who went to school for 10 years in 4 words with such certainty. "[/quote]

Congratulations on making it to 10th grade.

Quick life lesson, when a person has to start throwing around their credentials or education because their words leave people questioning their credibility and knowledge you are not in a good spot.  As the saying goes, better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: unfocused on January 04, 2013, 12:24:14 PM
Many of us who bought 5D MK III at 3499 needed that camera ... we do not care if Canon decides to drop the price after a few months, so many others can also buy them. From what I can understand in your post is that you could have waited for the price to drop and did not really need the camera when you purchased it ... but if you really needed the 5D MK III and bought it at $3499, you have nothing to crib about. Canon are smarter than you think, they sold 5D MK III for $3499 because they knew that there was a demand and sure enough they were right. The official price drop for 5D MK III is only $500 ... you cannot blame Canon if some grey market outlets or limited special deals are selling it for a lot less.
Moral of the story: next time do not buy things when you don't need them. But if you do need something and paid a premium for being one of the first few to get it, then do not crib.

One of the best posts on this thread.

Just one quibble however: the official price drop for the 5DIII is not $500. At least not in the U.S. I think Canon would argue there has been no official price drop. However, given that they have offered a never-ending rebate of $200, I think one could legitimately say the "official" price drop is $200.

All other price drops have been driven by individual retailers, who are reacting to the market.

The reality (which I cannot understand how the OP, who claims to have some knowledge of economics, cannot understand) is that Canon is at the mercy of the marketplace. If the 5DIII has fallen in price since its introduction, it is not because of Canon, it is because the market has determined that the fair price is different than what Canon set as its target price.

This is one of the the things that real economists refer to when they talk of the magic of the marketplace. In a capitalistic world, Canon gets to ask for any price they choose, but buyers then get to tell them "yes" or "no."  It appears that a significant number of buyers have said "no" and retailers (the front-line soldiers of capitalism) have responded with price cuts. I can't imagine why anyone, outside of tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists, would object.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: unfocused on January 04, 2013, 12:26:32 PM
As I said before... We're beating a dead horse.

Beating? I think this poor equine has been pulverized into dust.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: ChilledXpress on January 04, 2013, 01:54:25 PM
As I said before... We're beating a dead horse.

Beating? I think this poor equine has been pulverized into dust.

I'm sure some here are now snorting that dust.... yummm, can you feel the equine high !!!!!  ???
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: David Hull on January 04, 2013, 02:21:22 PM
"I'm an economic analyst so thanks for posting something relevant.



I couldn't have said THAT better myself.  I bought my 5DII for 2700, used it for 5 years, sold it for 1400.  It seems that the cost of ownership was 1300.  I read that guy's post and wondered what the heck he must be smoking.

Let's imagine that you purchased your 5D Mk. III at Canon's new markup and price slashing policy. That would mean you paid $3350 a few months ago and should sell it for $1300 in 5 years.

If you use historical pricing for the D700 as an indicator for the D800, then you'd pay $2700 for the body and sell it for $1700, as per the post release body pricing, and 5 year price based on the D700.

D800 cost of ownership = $1000
The 5D3 cost of ownership =$2050

Now, tell me how many Nikons you can own for the cost of ownership of 1 Canon over 5 years?

Well, while you are "imagining"... the reality is that I paid $3000 for my 5DIII so I guess the cost of ownership would be closer to 1700 across 5 years or $340 per year.  At that time I would have paid the same for the D800 and could probably sell it at the end of 5 years for about the same $1300 so it looks like a wash to me.

And... regardless of how many Nikons I could or could not buy -- they would all have the one fatal flaw that seems to persist with all Nikon camera bodies which is their stubborn refusal to incorporate an EOS lens mount.  That means that the real cost of ownership (given that I have no interest in running dual systems) is quite a bit more.  Even if I were willing to run dual systems, I would have to equip the Nikon body with lenses and flashes (and for a D800, this would need to be Nikon’s “L” equivalents which aren’t cheap).  I did the complete switch calculation when the D800 first came out and it was looking like I would have spent somewhere north of $5000 to swap everything over so that adds an additional $1000 per year across 5 years.
 
Given that the D800 brings nothing to the game except a bit of additional resolution (which I don’t need) and some additional DR (which would be nice but is really only realizable at ISO 100), for me the Nikon does not look that attractive.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: lola on January 04, 2013, 02:43:07 PM
For those of you who like to flame posts instead of to try and understand; this is exactly what the OP is talking about :

Quote
Roger Cicala from LensRentals.com has posted his first resolution tests of the Canon EF 24-70 f/4L IS.

Part of Roger’s Conclusion

“Obviously this hasn’t told us a thing about autofocus accuracy, bokeh, or a dozen other things that have to be considered when choosing a lens. Just like you, I’ll be waiting for more complete reviews to tell us about that.

On the basis of this information, though, I’m . . . well, I don’t know what I am. This is a good lens, but I at the price point I’d probably prefer the f/2.8 of the Tamron VC to the new Canon’s f/4. The macro feature is nice and will certainly pull some people towards the Canon.”

Roger also notes that there was quite a bit of variation at 70mm between the 22 copies they tested.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: brett b on January 04, 2013, 03:13:54 PM
Per Radiating:
"I'm an economic analyst so thanks for posting something relevant."

"I could personally care less about their pricing games, I make enough to buy hundreds Canon pro bodies a year and have enough left over to live comfortably after throwing those in the trash, but I think it's worth taking note of this craziness."



My math says that in order to by hundreds of 1Dx bodies (lets just say 200), it would cost $1,359,800. I would like to be able to throw $1.3 million in the trash each year and still live comfortably on what I earn.

Therefore...I've decided to go back to school to become an economic analyst.


Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: kubelik on January 04, 2013, 03:21:54 PM
As I said before... We're beating a dead horse.

Beating? I think this poor equine has been pulverized into dust.

I'm sure some here are now snorting that dust.... yummm, can you feel the equine high !!!!!  ???

haha chilledx, I thought this thread was weird already but, man, you took it to a whole 'nother level
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Cannon Man on January 04, 2013, 03:41:25 PM
Per Radiating:
"I'm an economic analyst so thanks for posting something relevant."

"I could personally care less about their pricing games, I make enough to buy hundreds Canon pro bodies a year and have enough left over to live comfortably after throwing those in the trash, but I think it's worth taking note of this craziness."



My math says that in order to by hundreds of 1Dx bodies (lets just say 200), it would cost $1,359,800. I would like to be able to throw $1.3 million in the trash each year and still live comfortably on what I earn.

Therefore...I've decided to go back to school to become an economic analyst.

Maybe he meant he could buy 900 pro bodies a year comfortably ("hundreds"). He would make $6,119,100 every year to throw away.
LOL he makes a lot of money. if that's to throw away how much does he need first to make him comfortable? 25 million a year? He must be an economic analyst for apple. Damnnn.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: chris_w_digits on January 04, 2013, 03:42:28 PM
I bought a 5D Mark III back on October 4, 2012 while the list price was still $3499 and was able to get a 10 percent discount and have taken 8469 photos with it already.   I do not regret buying it at all and don't consider myself "screwed over" since I knew the price was going to drop more as with any product of that nature.   I've gotten lots of low-light shots of bands that would not have been nearly as good and noise free as if I'd kept using the Rebel T2i for the past 3 months.    The 70-200 f 2.8 L (non IS version) is now my most versatile, most often used lens (for both medium shots and facial close-ups)  where before, I was switching between the Sigma 85mm f1.4 for medium shots and the Canon 135mm f2 L for facial close-ups constantly.    This is my first comment so hopefully I'll be able to update the camera field on my profile from "Canonflex".
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: unfocused on January 04, 2013, 03:55:26 PM
For those of you who like to flame posts instead of to try and understand; this is exactly what the OP is talking about :

Quote
Roger Cicala from LensRentals.com has posted his first resolution tests of the Canon EF 24-70 f/4L IS.

Part of Roger’s Conclusion

“Obviously this hasn’t told us a thing about autofocus accuracy, bokeh, or a dozen other things that have to be considered when choosing a lens. Just like you, I’ll be waiting for more complete reviews to tell us about that.

On the basis of this information, though, I’m . . . well, I don’t know what I am. This is a good lens, but I at the price point I’d probably prefer the f/2.8 of the Tamron VC to the new Canon’s f/4. The macro feature is nice and will certainly pull some people towards the Canon.”

Roger also notes that there was quite a bit of variation at 70mm between the 22 copies they tested.

Actually, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Consumers have their choice of five very similar lenses available in a range of prices. Canon is not only competing with other lens makers for our dollars, they are competing with themselves. We get to choose based on needs and affordability. That is a win for consumers.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: ChilledXpress on January 04, 2013, 04:20:45 PM
For those of you who like to flame posts instead of to try and understand; this is exactly what the OP is talking about :

Quote
Roger Cicala from LensRentals.com has posted his first resolution tests of the Canon EF 24-70 f/4L IS.

Part of Roger’s Conclusion

“Obviously this hasn’t told us a thing about autofocus accuracy, bokeh, or a dozen other things that have to be considered when choosing a lens. Just like you, I’ll be waiting for more complete reviews to tell us about that.

On the basis of this information, though, I’m . . . well, I don’t know what I am. This is a good lens, but I at the price point I’d probably prefer the f/2.8 of the Tamron VC to the new Canon’s f/4. The macro feature is nice and will certainly pull some people towards the Canon.”

Roger also notes that there was quite a bit of variation at 70mm between the 22 copies they tested.

Look who is snorting the equine dust now... not even the same topic or the OP's original comment  :o
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: crasher8 on January 04, 2013, 04:32:56 PM
amazing this thread is still alive
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Canon-F1 on January 04, 2013, 05:37:41 PM
Actually, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Consumers have their choice of five very similar lenses available in a range of prices. Canon is not only competing with other lens makers for our dollars, they are competing with themselves. We get to choose based on needs and affordability. That
 is a win for consumers.


if only the canon variations would not be overpriced compared to the competition.
and that´s the whole point of this thread.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Orangutan on January 04, 2013, 07:01:09 PM
overpriced
Please define this term precisely.  In all seriousness, I don't know what you mean here.  To me this word could have any of these definitions:

Is it not one of these?
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: x-vision on January 04, 2013, 07:42:56 PM
overpriced = priced higher than perceived value

Value is certainly subjective.
However, if the next iPhone is priced at $1000, it will be considered as overpriced by most people.
Same for Canon products.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Orangutan on January 04, 2013, 08:05:05 PM
overpriced = priced higher than perceived value

Value is certainly subjective.
However, if the next iPhone is priced at $1000, it will be considered as overpriced by most people.
Same for Canon products.

What if that $1000 iPhone sold at, say, a 25% HIGHER rate than the previous model; would it still be fair to say that it was overpriced, given that so many people were willing to pay the price for it?

Of course, it's obvious where my argument is going: "Everything is worth what its purchaser will pay for it."  At least this is true in the absence of market manipulation.  If enough people are willing to buy enough of these overpriced items so that it's profitable for the seller then the item is, de facto, not overpriced.

The explanation for the 5D3 price history is likely very simple: Canon thought people would pay a high price on release; many did.  Then demand dropped off, so the price dropped accordingly.  Will the higher price sour the perception of Canon to the point where Canon users migrate?  Who's to say?  If it does then Canon will change their market tactics.  Canon is not my friend or spouse, I don't need them to like, love or respect me, nor I them.  They're a business counterparty: they want me to give them lots of my money, and I want them to give me lots of value. 
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Zlatko on January 04, 2013, 08:22:57 PM
overpriced
Please define this term precisely.  In all seriousness, I don't know what you mean here.  To me this word could have any of these definitions:
  • higher price than I'm willing to pay for it
  • higher price than my (hypothetical) customer is willing to pay for it
  • artificially high price due to collusion with other companies; i.e., not subject to normal supply/demand market pressures
Is it not one of these?

Apparently it means "higher priced than the very cheapest third party competitor that offers lenses for the same mount".  Nevermind any cost-cutting by the competitor, such as the three tiny bits of glue that hold the front element of a third-party's 24-70 zoom.   And nevermind any incompatibilities caused by the third party reverse-engineering things.  And nevermind their wrong-direction zooms.  And nevermind any unique characteristics of the Canon offerings, such as the outstanding resolution of the 24-70/2.8 II, the built-in image stabilization of the 35/2 IS, the radio-controlled flash of the 600EX-RT, the variable raw file size and amazing quiet shutter mode of the 5DIII, the amazing 17mm tilt-shift or the 8-15mm fisheye lenses, etc.  It follows from this logic that Canon should be competing on price with everyone else out there, and letting innovation and quality take a backseat to price competition.  If a third-party ever makes a cheapo Canon-mount DSLR, then Canon should downgrade the 1DX and 5DIII to match it, to avoid being "overpriced".  It also means discounting every product from the first day on the market, to avoid any introductory pricing, despite countless other businesses doing the same thing.  ;D
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Radiating on January 04, 2013, 11:00:14 PM
If you actually talk to Canon USA's internal folks (which I do because I take photography way too seriously as a hobby) you'll notice that they speak a lot more about marketing and economics. Whenever they talk about a product they are always talking from a market perspective.  "Q:Why don't you release a updated 1Dx with f/8 AF points, A: because people will buy our cameras regardless, we aren't going to implement a feature if it's not going to be a money maker".
Did you miss the fact that Canon added f/8 AF to the 1D X via a firmware update, just 4 months after the camera hit the streets?  How much money did Canon make from that firmware update?  So...either you made up that conversation, or you talked to some junior lackey with no clue about Canon's business operations.  "Hello, Canon 800-number operator, please put me through to the guy who washes the dishes in the commissary, I have important economic questions..."

Just so you know I was the one that got that feature implemented on the 1D X. I wrote a technical article that was run by various internal Canon departments on how to implement f/8 AF on a camera which did not have f/8 capable AF points. I was given the opportunity to review the 1D X a week before it hit the streets and ran into an issue with lacking  f/8 AF.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: wayno on January 04, 2013, 11:08:14 PM
Sensible edit. The twists and turns of camera forums. Any forums!? :)
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: FatDaddyJones on January 05, 2013, 12:39:57 AM
Just so you know I was the one that got that feature implemented on the 1D X. I wrote a technical article that was run by various internal Canon departments on how to implement f/8 AF on a camera which did not have f/8 capable AF points. I was given the opportunity to review the 1D X a week before it hit the streets and ran into an issue with lacking  f/8 AF.

Thanks for that! Can't wait for the 5D Mark III firmware update.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: nightbreath on January 05, 2013, 03:46:45 AM
However, if the next iPhone is priced at $1000, it will be considered as overpriced by most people.
Same for Canon products.
Current iPhone is priced at $1000 in the country where I live, lots of people buy it anyway  :)

Apparently it means "higher priced than the very cheapest third party competitor that offers lenses for the same mount".  Nevermind any cost-cutting by the competitor, such as the three tiny bits of glue that hold the front element of a third-party's 24-70 zoom.   And nevermind any incompatibilities caused by the third party reverse-engineering things.  And nevermind their wrong-direction zooms.  And nevermind any unique characteristics of the Canon offerings, such as the outstanding resolution of the 24-70/2.8 II, the built-in image stabilization of the 35/2 IS, the radio-controlled flash of the 600EX-RT, the variable raw file size and amazing quiet shutter mode of the 5DIII, the amazing 17mm tilt-shift or the 8-15mm fisheye lenses, etc.  It follows from this logic that Canon should be competing on price with everyone else out there, and letting innovation and quality take a backseat to price competition.  If a third-party ever makes a cheapo Canon-mount DSLR, then Canon should downgrade the 1DX and 5DIII to match it, to avoid being "overpriced".  It also means discounting every product from the first day on the market, to avoid any introductory pricing, despite countless other businesses doing the same thing.  ;D
Strong post! +1 on that!
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: neuroanatomist on January 05, 2013, 05:14:15 AM
Just so you know I was the one that got that feature implemented on the 1D X. I wrote a technical article that was run by various internal Canon departments on how to implement f/8 AF on a camera which did not have f/8 capable AF points. I was given the opportunity to review the 1D X a week before it hit the streets and ran into an issue with lacking  f/8 AF.

Just you, all by your lonesome?  Art Morris solved that one, too...attach a Kenko 1.4x TC to an 800mm f/5.6L IS. I'm sure that didn't put any pressure on Canon, though, because no one's really heard of him, and no one at Canon would pay attention to him, despite him being a Canon Explorer of Light and all. Oh, and people have been taping pins on the 1.4x TC for years. 

Can you post that technical article? I'd love to read it.   
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: FatDaddyJones on January 05, 2013, 05:19:15 AM
amazing this thread is still alive

+1
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Albi86 on January 05, 2013, 07:02:57 AM
I am amazed by such sophisms questioning the very existence and the meaning of the term "overpriced". In some people the will to argue trascends every boundary set by mere common sense.

So, how would you consider a Ford Focus priced like a Maserati?

It's ridiculously plain that there's a value perception related to the market situation. This new 24-70 f/4, as well as other recent Canon products, do not come from God himself to give man the gift of taking pictures for the first time. They enter a game that other players were playing already.

In comparison with its two closest relatives - namely the 24-105 and Tamron 24-70 - it is apparent that this lens doesn't offer such superior quality or such unique features to justify such a higher price - thus it is overpriced.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: sanj on January 05, 2013, 07:34:37 AM
I am amazed by such sophisms questioning the very existence and the meaning of the term "overpriced". In some people the will to argue trascends every boundary set by mere common sense.

So, how would you consider a Ford Focus priced like a Maserati?

It's ridiculously plain that there's a value perception related to the market situation. This new 24-70 f/4, as well as other recent Canon products, do not come from God himself to give man the gift of taking pictures for the first time. They enter a game that other players were playing already.

In comparison with its two closest relatives - namely the 24-105 and Tamron 24-70 - it is apparent that this lens doesn't offer such superior quality or such unique features to justify such a higher price - thus it is overpriced.

There is merit to your point. At least to me.

I have a different viewpoint to the 'overpriced' term: If an item released by a company comes down in price shortly (within 5-6 months) after it is announced, that means that the company was trying to get the maximum out of the customer at start. If they can sell it soon after release for less than what they introduced it at, they over priced it at introduction. The point is that no company will reduce the price to the extent they they do not make profit. And the price they reduce it to after they realize that the sales have dropped (of course they are still making profit), could (to me: should) have been the starting price. My belief.

Apple does NOT reduce prices of its computers. It stays the same over it's life cycle. I like that!

I also do not understand how retailers can drop prices unless they are getting some incentive from Canon. Or they had a margin of over $500 on 5d3 at introduction?

Canon helps me take photos and I appreciate that. I want to pay and help them make profit when I buy their products. I wish they would not penalize the early buyers...



Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: elflord on January 05, 2013, 08:35:12 AM
I am amazed by such sophisms questioning the very existence and the meaning of the term "overpriced". In some people the will to argue trascends every boundary set by mere common sense.

So, how would you consider a Ford Focus priced like a Maserati?

It's ridiculously plain that there's a value perception related to the market situation. This new 24-70 f/4, as well as other recent Canon products, do not come from God himself to give man the gift of taking pictures for the first time. They enter a game that other players were playing already.

In comparison with its two closest relatives - namely the 24-105 and Tamron 24-70 - it is apparent that this lens doesn't offer such superior quality or such unique features to justify such a higher price - thus it is overpriced.

The supply of the 24-70 f/4 is relatively limited. The 24-105L is undercut by a large secondary market (it's a kit lens for a popular camera with a long life cycle so it's easy to buy used).

Car manufacturers do in fact do this all the time, and in some cases the limited quantity is completely contrived for example, they will  release "special edition" models (which have a special paint color and some other mindor upgrades) in limited quantity and charge a large sum for it. One of my friends priced a Toyota Prius when they were at the height of their popularity and the dealer quote included a "supply and demand fee" for about $6000-.

There is also plenty of this from other manufacturers.

So it's hardly unprecedented. However, as a buyer of these products it's good to be aware of this and wait for the "early adopter premium" to expire. If I'm asked for buying advice, I always point out that new products have a premium attached to them. Often on this board the advice is "buy Canon and buy the most expensive thing Canon makes", but this isn't always good advice.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Orangutan on January 05, 2013, 09:19:25 AM
I am amazed by such sophisms questioning the very existence and the meaning of the term "overpriced". In some people the will to argue trascends every boundary set by mere common sense.


Sophisms?  I do not think it means what you think it means.

I don't think anyone is trying to deny "the very existence" of the term.  "Overpriced" simply doesn't have any meaning divorced from its context.  For example:


Quote
So, how would you consider a Ford Focus priced like a Maserati?

I won't buy it at that price so it's overpriced for me.  Yet people do pay ridiculous amounts of money for restored old cars, even though their intrinsic quality is much lower than would be justified by the cost.

Quote
In comparison with its two closest relatives - namely the 24-105 and Tamron 24-70 - it is apparent that this lens doesn't offer such superior quality or such unique features to justify such a higher price - thus it is overpriced.

That means it's overpriced for you.  Some people think its qualities do justify the higher cost, therefore it is not overpriced for them.

And what about a manual-focus Zeiss 100mm lens that costs $1800, is that overpriced by your definition?  Why or why not? I can tell you that I won't buy it at that price, so it's overpriced for me.  There are plenty of wealthy people paying what I consider to be ridiculous amounts of money for Leica manual focus cameras; are those cameras overpriced?  I can tell you that they're overpriced for me.

This is simple economics:
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: zim on January 05, 2013, 11:48:28 AM
I am amazed by such sophisms questioning the very existence and the meaning of the term "overpriced". In some people the will to argue trascends every boundary set by mere common sense.


Sophisms?  I do not think it means what you think it means.

I don't think anyone is trying to deny "the very existence" of the term.  "Overpriced" simply doesn't have any meaning divorced from its context.  For example:

  • I won't buy a 5D3 at $3500, so it's overpriced for me
  • I won't buy a D800 at $2000, so it's also overpriced for me
  • for a company like Canon, the term overpriced means they're not selling enough of them to meet their financial goals.

Quote
So, how would you consider a Ford Focus priced like a Maserati?

I won't buy it at that price so it's overpriced for me.  Yet people do pay ridiculous amounts of money for restored old cars, even though their intrinsic quality is much lower than would be justified by the cost.

Quote
In comparison with its two closest relatives - namely the 24-105 and Tamron 24-70 - it is apparent that this lens doesn't offer such superior quality or such unique features to justify such a higher price - thus it is overpriced.

That means it's overpriced for you.  Some people think its qualities do justify the higher cost, therefore it is not overpriced for them.

And what about a manual-focus Zeiss 100mm lens that costs $1800, is that overpriced by your definition?  Why or why not? I can tell you that I won't buy it at that price, so it's overpriced for me.  There are plenty of wealthy people paying what I consider to be ridiculous amounts of money for Leica manual focus cameras; are those cameras overpriced?  I can tell you that they're overpriced for me.

This is simple economics:
  • "Overpriced" is a relative term, and cannot reasonably  be used without the context.  You can't reasonably say "X is overpriced," you must say "X is overpriced for..."
  • If you will not buy a product at its current price, then it's overpriced for you
  • If someone else will buy a product at its current price, then it's not overpriced for them
  • If Canon fails to sell enough of these products at their current price, then it's overpriced for them


+100000000000000000
This thread would have stopped right there ;)

(actually I don't want it to stop it's been really funny, hick :o )
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: brett b on January 05, 2013, 06:02:01 PM
When you introduce a new product to any market you cannot be certain what the correct price is for that market.

Sales 101 - It is much easier to reduce the price if the market dictates that the launch price is too high than to increase the price if the market dictates it is too low.



Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Stichus III on January 05, 2013, 06:13:43 PM
When you introduce a new product to any market you cannot be certain what the correct price is for that market.

Sales 101 - It is much easier to reduce the price if the market dictates that the launch price is too high than to increase the price if the market dictates it is too low.

Great point.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: WPJ on January 05, 2013, 07:01:32 PM
Ya really I'm a little pissy, I got a 7D last Christmas for 1250cnd and this year it was 1299cnd.....how dare they charge 49$ more this year.......absurd.....
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: David Hull on January 05, 2013, 07:58:26 PM
overpriced = priced higher than perceived value

Value is certainly subjective.
However, if the next iPhone is priced at $1000, it will be considered as overpriced by most people.
Same for Canon products.

The iPhone is overpriced now.  The retail price for it (32G) is around $800 bucks (so you are damn close to $1000 now) -- the equivelent iPod touch is $299 what is the extra $500 for? 
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Axilrod on January 05, 2013, 08:44:27 PM
Some of these comparisons and smart a$$ comments about depreciation are ridiculous.  I don't think the OP should have started an entire thread dedicated to this and been so dramatic about it, but I can sympathize with his feelings on the 5D3 and 5D3 only.  You all act like the drop is completely normal but name one other piece of Canon gear that dropped that much that fast?

Of course depreciation is to be expected, but I think the 5D3's drop was different.   The price of the 5D Mark II dropped maybe $200 the first 2 YEARS it was out.  And if the 5D3 price pattern is the norm then why is the 1DX not under $5k now?  It's the same price it was at it's release.

Not to mention there was a poll before the Mark III was shipped asking about when it would drop below $3000 and the earliest answers were around Xmas and even those people got laughed at.  Nowhere did anyone say that it would drop to $2500 in 7 months or anywhere close to that.  And why would they think that it would? 

I don't think anyone here is stupid enough to believe their electronics won't ever depreciate, but most aren't complaining about the depreciation itself, just how quickly it happened.  And I think a lot of the people being pricks about it are just trying to scorn the early adopters to make themselves feel better about waiting. 

I don't care either way, I paid almost $3800 for mine and still think it's a great camera.  But if you had told me I could save $1600 if I buy a refurb in 7 months, or $800 waiting 5 months, I would have considered waiting.  But now I know for the future, lesson learned.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: iso79 on January 06, 2013, 09:25:14 AM
Some of these comparisons and smart a$$ comments about depreciation are ridiculous.  I don't think the OP should have started an entire thread dedicated to this and been so dramatic about it, but I can sympathize with his feelings on the 5D3 and 5D3 only.  You all act like the drop is completely normal but name one other piece of Canon gear that dropped that much that fast?

Of course depreciation is to be expected, but I think the 5D3's drop was different.   The price of the 5D Mark II dropped maybe $200 the first 2 YEARS it was out.  And if the 5D3 price pattern is the norm then why is the 1DX not under $5k now?  It's the same price it was at it's release.

Not to mention there was a poll before the Mark III was shipped asking about when it would drop below $3000 and the earliest answers were around Xmas and even those people got laughed at.  Nowhere did anyone say that it would drop to $2500 in 7 months or anywhere close to that.  And why would they think that it would? 

I don't think anyone here is stupid enough to believe their electronics won't ever depreciate, but most aren't complaining about the depreciation itself, just how quickly it happened.  And I think a lot of the people being pricks about it are just trying to scorn the early adopters to make themselves feel better about waiting. 

I don't care either way, I paid almost $3800 for mine and still think it's a great camera.  But if you had told me I could save $1600 if I buy a refurb in 7 months, or $800 waiting 5 months, I would have considered waiting.  But now I know for the future, lesson learned.

You got ripped off by both Canon an Uncle Sam. A little shopping around at launch or waiting a few years would have helped you save some money  ;D
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: sanj on January 06, 2013, 10:34:46 AM
Some of these comparisons and smart a$$ comments about depreciation are ridiculous.  I don't think the OP should have started an entire thread dedicated to this and been so dramatic about it, but I can sympathize with his feelings on the 5D3 and 5D3 only.  You all act like the drop is completely normal but name one other piece of Canon gear that dropped that much that fast?

Of course depreciation is to be expected, but I think the 5D3's drop was different.   The price of the 5D Mark II dropped maybe $200 the first 2 YEARS it was out.  And if the 5D3 price pattern is the norm then why is the 1DX not under $5k now?  It's the same price it was at it's release.

Not to mention there was a poll before the Mark III was shipped asking about when it would drop below $3000 and the earliest answers were around Xmas and even those people got laughed at.  Nowhere did anyone say that it would drop to $2500 in 7 months or anywhere close to that.  And why would they think that it would? 

I don't think anyone here is stupid enough to believe their electronics won't ever depreciate, but most aren't complaining about the depreciation itself, just how quickly it happened.  And I think a lot of the people being pricks about it are just trying to scorn the early adopters to make themselves feel better about waiting. 

I don't care either way, I paid almost $3800 for mine and still think it's a great camera.  But if you had told me I could save $1600 if I buy a refurb in 7 months, or $800 waiting 5 months, I would have considered waiting.  But now I know for the future, lesson learned.

Absolutely!
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: unfocused on January 06, 2013, 02:56:32 PM
Some of these comparisons and smart a$$ comments about depreciation are ridiculous.  I don't think the OP should have started an entire thread dedicated to this and been so dramatic about it, but I can sympathize with his feelings on the 5D3 and 5D3 only.  You all act like the drop is completely normal but name one other piece of Canon gear that dropped that much that fast?

Of course depreciation is to be expected, but I think the 5D3's drop was different.   The price of the 5D Mark II dropped maybe $200 the first 2 YEARS it was out.  And if the 5D3 price pattern is the norm then why is the 1DX not under $5k now?  It's the same price it was at it's release...I don't think anyone here is stupid enough to believe their electronics won't ever depreciate, but most aren't complaining about the depreciation itself, just how quickly it happened...I don't care either way, I paid almost $3800 for mine and still think it's a great camera.  But if you had told me I could save $1600 if I buy a refurb in 7 months, or $800 waiting 5 months, I would have considered waiting.  But now I know for the future, lesson learned.

Absolutely!

I don't disagree with any of this. But, the problem with the original post is that it is based on the assumption that somehow Canon is the source of  the price drop.

The price has dropped because the market dictates prices and Canon has been unable to prevent retailers from lowering the price of  the 5DIII to reflect the demand in the competitive marketplace. I repeat once more, the only price drop from Canon has been the relatively common reduction from a "rebate," which in the case of the 5DIII amounts to $200 in the U.S. All other price cuts have been driven by retailers willing to accept smaller profits in return for higher sales.

Canon may be complacent in this, but they are not the driving force – the marketplace is. I am quite certain that if Canon had its way, the 5DIII would remain at its introductory price. But, in a competitive, capitalistic market, they don't get to determine that – we as consumers do.

Consumers have been voting with their feet and retailers are responding. I sympathize with individuals who are dismayed by the apparent price drops, but it is wrong to attribute market forces to some bizarre conspiracy theory.

Mr Axilrod's post raises a very interesting point: is this part of a new trend or just a one time error on Canon's part? I agree, we would all be wise not to rush to purchase any new Canon products that seem to be overpriced for the market, but instead wait to see where the marketplace sets the "true" price.

(As an aside, I have to tip my hat to Mr. Radiating. It seems the joke may have been on us. His on-line persona – that of a fabulously wealthy economic analyst who in his spare time consults with Canon and provides their engineering department with solutions to problems that they themselves have been unable to solve – has got to be one of the most creative uses of trolling I've ever seen.)
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Hobby Shooter on January 06, 2013, 06:31:05 PM
Some of these comparisons and smart a$$ comments about depreciation are ridiculous.  I don't think the OP should have started an entire thread dedicated to this and been so dramatic about it, but I can sympathize with his feelings on the 5D3 and 5D3 only.  You all act like the drop is completely normal but name one other piece of Canon gear that dropped that much that fast?

Of course depreciation is to be expected, but I think the 5D3's drop was different.   The price of the 5D Mark II dropped maybe $200 the first 2 YEARS it was out.  And if the 5D3 price pattern is the norm then why is the 1DX not under $5k now?  It's the same price it was at it's release...I don't think anyone here is stupid enough to believe their electronics won't ever depreciate, but most aren't complaining about the depreciation itself, just how quickly it happened...I don't care either way, I paid almost $3800 for mine and still think it's a great camera.  But if you had told me I could save $1600 if I buy a refurb in 7 months, or $800 waiting 5 months, I would have considered waiting.  But now I know for the future, lesson learned.

Absolutely!

I don't disagree with any of this. But, the problem with the original post is that it is based on the assumption that somehow Canon is the source of  the price drop.

The price has dropped because the market dictates prices and Canon has been unable to prevent retailers from lowering the price of  the 5DIII to reflect the demand in the competitive marketplace. I repeat once more, the only price drop from Canon has been the relatively common reduction from a "rebate," which in the case of the 5DIII amounts to $200 in the U.S. All other price cuts have been driven by retailers willing to accept smaller profits in return for higher sales.

Canon may be complacent in this, but they are not the driving force – the marketplace is. I am quite certain that if Canon had its way, the 5DIII would remain at its introductory price. But, in a competitive, capitalistic market, they don't get to determine that – we as consumers do.

Consumers have been voting with their feet and retailers are responding. I sympathize with individuals who are dismayed by the apparent price drops, but it is wrong to attribute market forces to some bizarre conspiracy theory.

Mr Axilrod's post raises a very interesting point: is this part of a new trend or just a one time error on Canon's part? I agree, we would all be wise not to rush to purchase any new Canon products that seem to be overpriced for the market, but instead wait to see where the marketplace sets the "true" price.

(As an aside, I have to tip my hat to Mr. Radiating. It seems the joke may have been on us. His on-line persona – that of a fabulously wealthy economic analyst who in his spare time consults with Canon and provides their engineering department with solutions to problems that they themselves have been unable to solve – has got to be one of the most creative uses of trolling I've ever seen.)
As always a great post from you. Thanks, you made my morning here.  ;D
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: x-vision on January 06, 2013, 07:38:13 PM
... is this part of a new trend or just a one time error on Canon's part?

Here's what we have seen since the beginning of 2012:

Overall, we are seeing price hikes on all new Canon products.
So, definitely not a one time error. More like a new pricing policy.

Let's see how long this policy will last, though.
Those deep Christmas discounts are telling me that the market doesn't agree with Canon on the new pricing.
And, of course, the market has the last word.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: cszy67 on January 06, 2013, 09:34:32 PM
Sorry if this has been addressed already but I just do not have the time to read through this entire post - has anyone considered the loss in value of the US dollar as compared to the Japanese Yen as part of the reason for the sharp upturn in Canon's pricing?

http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=USD&to=JPY&view=5Y (http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=USD&to=JPY&view=5Y)



Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Zo0m on January 06, 2013, 09:45:45 PM
I live in Europe and canon are raising their prices here by 2x as well despite that the value of our currency has remained on the same level as the Yen...
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: scrup on January 07, 2013, 02:07:22 AM
Canon needs to protect the professional wedding photographers so charged a premium knowing full well that those that used it for business would fork out the initial cost.

One reason prices have come down is because of the d800 and d600. If it wasn't for competition Canon would of just kept the price as high as possible.

Another reason mark3 prices we're high was because of the mark2. They had a lot of stock to offload and now that most of it has been sold they can come back to earth with the pricing.


Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: awinphoto on January 07, 2013, 12:55:08 PM
Dang them for forcing us into buying their overpriced gear... dang it!!!! (slamming fists on the ground)
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: HurtinMinorKey on January 07, 2013, 03:29:46 PM

The OP should have written "Governments cannot keep screwing their citizens over" (by debasing their currencies with QE and absurd ZIRP monetary policy), but that would require some modicum of intelligence and understanding ::)


A little bit of information is a dangerous thing.

The US recovery has been better since the financial crisis than Europe because of policies like QE, and deficit spending.  The FED was 3 years ahead of ECB on QE.
 


Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: scokar on January 07, 2013, 05:17:44 PM
...
btw explains 80% of the price drop of the 5D3 but seems to go unnoticed by 99% of CR
...

Not unnoticed and in your opinion.  If this were true. the 5D3 MSRP whould have risen **significantly** in either June or late September. 

In mine,  the market place is having more of an impact.

Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: cszy67 on January 07, 2013, 09:25:24 PM
I live in Europe and canon are raising their prices here by 2x as well despite that the value of our currency has remained on the same level as the Yen...

Thanks for the valid suggestion but the Euro has not been doing well either. Maybe this is more of a Western Civilization sort of thing  :o

http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=EUR&to=JPY&view=5Y (http://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=EUR&to=JPY&view=5Y)
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: bdunbar79 on January 08, 2013, 12:30:14 AM
Dang them for forcing us into buying their overpriced gear... dang it!!!! (slamming fists on the ground)

Fantastic post!
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Canon-F1 on January 08, 2013, 09:28:02 AM
Dang them for forcing us into buying their overpriced gear... dang it!!!! (slamming fists on the ground)

Fantastic post!

yeah if your IQ is at 2 digits.....
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Eric_2012 on January 08, 2013, 10:24:03 AM
I agree a good post but when new things are released no matter what they are you can expect to pay list.  Why do people have to be the first to own some new release?   The depreciation they see over the subsequent months is the price for wanting to be part of that club.  If you know full well that months later it will be cheaper why do it?
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: insanitybeard on January 08, 2013, 10:30:12 AM
Dang them for forcing us into buying their overpriced gear... dang it!!!! (slamming fists on the ground)

Fantastic post!

yeah if your IQ is at 2 digits.....

Your own insight into the matter provided ample evidence that yours is considerably higher...
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: unfocused on January 08, 2013, 10:33:48 AM
I agree a good post but when new things are released no matter what they are you can expect to pay list.  Why do people have to be the first to own some new release?   The depreciation they see over the subsequent months is the price for wanting to be part of that club.  If you know full well that months later it will be cheaper why do it?

More to the point: Why do it and then complain about it?
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: bdunbar79 on January 08, 2013, 11:01:04 AM
Dang them for forcing us into buying their overpriced gear... dang it!!!! (slamming fists on the ground)

Fantastic post!

yeah if your IQ is at 2 digits.....

Your own insight into the matter provided ample evidence that yours is considerably higher...

Fantastic post!
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: lintoni on January 08, 2013, 12:00:32 PM
I bought my 5d3 when it first came out, as my first DSLR, and paid the full price.  I'd been waiting to go digital until I could afford a full frame camera.  Circumstances meant that this happened just as the 5d3 was released.  Do I regret paying the full price?  No, it's a brilliant camera (even if I'm still learning how to use it!).  I miss the eye-controlled AF of my EOS 30 and EOS 5 film bodies, but, I'm coping!  People that may not have been able to afford it when it was released now have the opportunity to buy a great camera for a bit less than I paid for it.  So what?  I've enjoyed every minute with it and do not feel like I've wasted a penny.  Will I be rushing out to buy the 200-400 as soon as it's released?  No.  I doubt I'll ever buy that monster!  Same goes with a lot of the other new lenses.  I can wait until the price drops for any of the new lenses I might want...  the TSE24 is now starting to look interesting...

If you want the latest/greatest, you'll pay a premium. But I've been using Canon kit for years and it's never seriously let me down yet.  I'd rather pay once for decent kit, than pay several times for rubbish...
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Hobby Shooter on January 08, 2013, 07:34:59 PM
Dang them for forcing us into buying their overpriced gear... dang it!!!! (slamming fists on the ground)

Fantastic post!

yeah if your IQ is at 2 digits.....

Your own insight into the matter provided ample evidence that yours is considerably higher...

Fantastic post!
Outstanding!
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Efka76 on January 09, 2013, 05:44:03 AM
In my opinion all Canon products at release date are to much overpriced. After 1-2 years prices become more or less normal, however, still much higher comparing to such companies as Tamron and Sigma. Maybe some time ago Canon and Nikon were only two leading companies in lens production, however, latest test show that Tamron (especially with their SP 24-70 mm 2.8) and Sigma can compete with quality, however, their prices ar much lower.

In my opinion, Canon has a very good and quite loyal custormer base, however, people do not like to be screwed and, if Canon pricing does not change, then they will start loosing to other lens producers. I still have an biased opinion that Canon and Nikon cameras are the best, however, Sony, FujiFilm and other manufacturers are trying to change that concept in people's minds... especially whn  mirrorless cameras are becoming more and more popular. Nikon and Canon can not boast having strong positions in this rapidly evolving segment.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: kubelik on January 09, 2013, 01:26:25 PM
is the tamron 24-70 that people keep mentioning here as an example of how canon overprices its products the same tamron 24-70 that roger cicala documented having its second element fall off? because if it's the same one, I'm perfectly happy to pay for "overpriced" gear that doesn't have glass elements unmounting themselves for no apparent reason.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Lord_Zeppelin on January 09, 2013, 02:19:23 PM
I have a Tamron 24-70, and the build quality is solid. The glass falling out seems to be a defect and is certainly not widespread.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: CTJohn on January 09, 2013, 02:30:13 PM
I can't believe this stupid string keeps making the listed discussions on the front page of this site.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: jrh on January 09, 2013, 06:34:00 PM
you must start to pay tax like  other countries and  and not live on borrowed money.
take a look at your debt. (what  has  this to do with the subject in this thread?)

What country pays a tax and to whom do they pay this to???  Agree with you on the borrowed money part if you are referring to the US.  The US is hedging off inflation (among other things), and has been since Greenspan, to the point that within 2-3 years the initial price of the 5D3 at $3499 could seem like a bargain...
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: jondave on January 09, 2013, 06:36:05 PM
In my opinion all Canon products at release date are to much overpriced. After 1-2 years prices become more or less normal, however, still much higher comparing to such companies as Tamron and Sigma. Maybe some time ago Canon and Nikon were only two leading companies in lens production, however, latest test show that Tamron (especially with their SP 24-70 mm 2.8) and Sigma can compete with quality, however, their prices ar much lower.

In my opinion, Canon has a very good and quite loyal custormer base, however, people do not like to be screwed and, if Canon pricing does not change, then they will start loosing to other lens producers. I still have an biased opinion that Canon and Nikon cameras are the best, however, Sony, FujiFilm and other manufacturers are trying to change that concept in people's minds... especially whn  mirrorless cameras are becoming more and more popular. Nikon and Canon can not boast having strong positions in this rapidly evolving segment.

Boo hoo. Do you know how much margin they make on Coca-Cola? Beer? Cars? Apple's iPhones & iPads? LEICA???No one's screwing anyone, you have no right to tell me I got screwed by Canon when I bought my 5D3 and my 24-70 Mk II. If you don't want to buy it, don't. Businesses price their products by how people perceive its value, and what quantity they actually want to sell. Supply and Demand.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Normalnorm on January 09, 2013, 07:31:32 PM
One's frustration at the changes in price is understandable but if you really feel Canon is screwing you then you may wish to look to their competitors and send Canon a free-market message of your own.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: HawkeyeOC on January 09, 2013, 08:06:34 PM
In my opinion all Canon products at release date are to much overpriced. After 1-2 years prices become more or less normal, however, still much higher comparing to such companies as Tamron and Sigma. Maybe some time ago Canon and Nikon were only two leading companies in lens production, however, latest test show that Tamron (especially with their SP 24-70 mm 2.8) and Sigma can compete with quality, however, their prices ar much lower.

In my opinion, Canon has a very good and quite loyal custormer base, however, people do not like to be screwed and, if Canon pricing does not change, then they will start loosing to other lens producers. I still have an biased opinion that Canon and Nikon cameras are the best, however, Sony, FujiFilm and other manufacturers are trying to change that concept in people's minds... especially whn  mirrorless cameras are becoming more and more popular. Nikon and Canon can not boast having strong positions in this rapidly evolving segment.

Boo hoo. Do you know how much margin they make on Coca-Cola? Beer? Cars? Apple's iPhones & iPads? LEICA???No one's screwing anyone, you have no right to tell me I got screwed by Canon when I bought my 5D3 and my 24-70 Mk II. If you don't want to buy it, don't. Businesses price their products by how people perceive its value, and what quantity they actually want to sell. Supply and Demand.

Finally Apple was brought up. There is a company that typically prices its products the same from day 1 of it's product life cycle all the way to the end, so the perceived screwing comes on the back end when the tech is older and outdated.
So, it could be worse.

I bought a 6D early in its life cycle. I know full well the camera will be cheeper later. It will get its use as it depreciates. I will have no regrets ;D
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: Don Haines on January 09, 2013, 10:37:27 PM
I bought a 6D early in its life cycle. I know full well the camera will be cheeper later.

If the camera is cheeper later (as opposed to cheaper later), you can always use it to take pictures of birds...... (pun intended)
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: brett b on January 10, 2013, 03:19:24 PM
In my opinion all Canon products at release date are to much overpriced. After 1-2 years prices become more or less normal, however, still much higher comparing to such companies as Tamron and Sigma. Maybe some time ago Canon and Nikon were only two leading companies in lens production, however, latest test show that Tamron (especially with their SP 24-70 mm 2.8) and Sigma can compete with quality, however, their prices ar much lower.

In my opinion, Canon has a very good and quite loyal custormer base, however, people do not like to be screwed and, if Canon pricing does not change, then they will start loosing to other lens producers. I still have an biased opinion that Canon and Nikon cameras are the best, however, Sony, FujiFilm and other manufacturers are trying to change that concept in people's minds... especially whn  mirrorless cameras are becoming more and more popular. Nikon and Canon can not boast having strong positions in this rapidly evolving segment.

If you don't mind buying technology nearing the end of it's life cycle, then wait the 2 years when the price is right for YOU.
I would never put a Tamron or Sigma lens in front of the cameras I use.
It's mind boggling to read the whining of non professionals, likely taking several hundred to a couple thousand photos a year, who feel they must have or deserve to have the top of the line pro camera bodies...then incessantly complain about the price. The price of the 1DX hasn't budged since its launch and Canons retail price for the 5DIII hasn't changed either, but they are offering a $200 rebate.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: HurtinMinorKey on January 10, 2013, 04:59:57 PM

Misinformation is worse!

US growth? Average real GDP growth per capita over the last deacde: USA +0.6% ITALY +0.5% !!!

And that is after you allow for the Mickey Mouse (Implicit Price Deflator of GDP) inflation index that Politicians use to make growth look better than it really is (instead of using proper inflation rate like CPI-U Urban All-Consumers in the United States).... what happens when real inflation is 2% or 3% but government statisticians assume that it is just +0.8%? They can make 0.5% economic expansion appear to be 2%

...and all of this despite Helicopter Ben

I'd suggest you go take a look at the US Bureau of Census and see how many million migrants are entering the US each year and how rapidly the population is growing (a lot faster than your recovery figures)

So you are blaming our GDP per capita growth on an influx of poor immigrants? How is that a criticism of our fiscal/monetary policy?  You basically just defeated your own argument with your statistics. 

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/18/austerity-and-growth/ (http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/18/austerity-and-growth/)

Read it and weep. Then go back to econ 101 and learn something.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: brett b on January 10, 2013, 06:02:41 PM
you must start to pay tax like  other countries and  and not live on borrowed money.
take a look at your debt. (what  has  this to do with the subject in this thread?)

What country pays a tax and to whom do they pay this to???  Agree with you on the borrowed money part if you are referring to the US.  The US is hedging off inflation (among other things), and has been since Greenspan, to the point that within 2-3 years the initial price of the 5D3 at $3499 could seem like a bargain...
I think you understand what I meant, another words maybe  can cause even more problems for you, solidarity, free health care, free schools/universities. fair society , stop freeload on the earth's resources ,Kyoto Protocol, live over the assets  etc etc etc . Have a nice day  and take some nice pictures.

Since we are getting political...I don't disagree. In the U.S. 25% of all corporations with 500+ employees pay $ZERO in taxes. I would like to know when this became acceptable.
Title: Re: Canon Cannot Keep Screwing It's Customers Over
Post by: well_dunno on January 11, 2013, 06:24:42 AM
A bit of exchange rate info:

1 € was in average 102.6 JPY in 2012. 2013 YTD average is 114.7 which is app 11% higher.
1 US$ was in average 79.8 JPY in 2012. 2013 YTD average is 87.4 which is app 9.5% higher.
1 £ was in average 126.5 JPY in 2012 and 2013 YTD average is 141 which, again, is app 11% higher (http://www.oanda.com/currency/average (http://www.oanda.com/currency/average))

If the trend holds, do we see the Canon prices drop or remain at the same levels? Any experiences from the past?

Cheers!