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Rumors => EOS Bodies => Topic started by: DigiDen on January 07, 2013, 03:01:31 AM

Title: 5D Mark iii ai-servo
Post by: DigiDen on January 07, 2013, 03:01:31 AM
I have 5d mark 3 and 70-200/2.8 ii lense.

Sunny day I tried to make shots runing dogs.

I tried to use ai-servo, case1 and case6, zone af points and one af point with ext, but everytime i have 50% shots with missing focus.

What i do wrong ?


http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/2241/test1tff.jpg (http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/2241/test1tff.jpg)
http://img547.imageshack.us/img547/9121/test2p.jpg (http://img547.imageshack.us/img547/9121/test2p.jpg)
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/7719/test3xr.jpg (http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/7719/test3xr.jpg)
Title: Re: 5D Mark iii ai-servo
Post by: Eli on January 07, 2013, 03:55:07 AM
What was your shutter speed?
Title: Re: 5D Mark iii ai-servo
Post by: DigiDen on January 07, 2013, 04:16:01 AM
Tv and M mode with 1/1600 - 1/2000
Title: Re: 5D Mark iii ai-servo
Post by: petrosv on January 07, 2013, 06:16:03 AM
It's different missing focus  from blurry images cause tv(speed) .For a reason  ai servo in 5diii or in 7d  not work  well in very fast situations , as well as servo focus."Reload" and  shoot again ,you wil see that you will have a lot of pin sharp images. Sorry for my very bad English .
Title: Re: 5D Mark iii ai-servo
Post by: DigiDen on January 07, 2013, 08:45:49 AM
but if
1. ai servo in 5diii not work well in very fast situations
2. af in 5diii is better than in 1dm iv
3. af in 5diii is the same as in 1dx

so what camera I need to use for very fast situations?
Title: Re: 5D Mark iii ai-servo
Post by: petrosv on January 07, 2013, 09:09:20 AM
You can use perfectly 5d3 in original servo focus .
Title: Re: 5D Mark iii ai-servo
Post by: DigiDen on January 07, 2013, 09:33:39 AM
some samples

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/2241/test1tff.jpg (http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/2241/test1tff.jpg)
http://img547.imageshack.us/img547/9121/test2p.jpg (http://img547.imageshack.us/img547/9121/test2p.jpg)
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/7719/test3xr.jpg (http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/7719/test3xr.jpg)
Title: Re: 5D Mark iii ai-servo
Post by: 96Brigadier on January 07, 2013, 09:47:09 AM
Check your AI Servo Priority setting.  Looks like you could have it set to Release/Speed Priority rather than Focus Priority or Equal Priority.

Explanation here:

http://learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2011/1dx_af_config_article.htmlp (http://learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2011/1dx_af_config_article.htmlp)

AI Servo 1st image priority:
When starting to follow-focus a moving subject with AI Servo AF, if the user fully presses down on the shutter button immediately after starting to focus, what will the camera do?

Equal Priority: Camera allows a bit of time before firing first shot in a sequence, to give AF system a bit of "cushion" to focus completely on subject. This setting is new on EOS cameras.

Release Priority: Camera gives "priority" to releasing shutter – camera will fire virtually instantly, even if AF system hasn't fully locked-on to subject. News and wire-service shooters, who often are more concerned with the "decisive moment" than absolute tack-sharp images, may prefer this setting.

Focus Priority: Camera gives "priority" to assuring sharp focus – when trying to focus and shoot quickly, shutter release may be delayed for a perceptible moment while AF system confirms that first shot will be sharp.

AI Servo 2nd image priority:
This concerns what happens when the user tries to shoot a sequence of two or more continuous pictures of a moving subject with AI Servo AF. For the 2nd and all subsequent shots in that sequence, does the camera try to shoot as fast as it possibly can – even if this means a few frames may not be tack-sharp – or will it slow down the fps rate as needed to allow the AF system to confirm that virtually all frames in a sequence are as sharp as they can be?

Equal Priority: The EOS-1D X and 5D Mark III give equal priority to maintaining fps shooting speed, while allowing time for AF. In extremely dim conditions or with very difficult-to-focus subjects, shooting speed may slow down.

Speed Priority: Camera gives priority to maintaining fps shooting speed, even if it means the AF system may not have fully confirmed sharp focus for every frame in a sequence. Again, for example, capturing the moment may be more important for a traditional news shooter than having each and every frame tack-sharp in a high-speed sequence.

Focus Priority: During continuous shooting with focus-tracking in AI Servo AF, the camera gives priority to assuring sharpest possible focus for all frames in a sequence, and will readily slow-down the fps rate if necessary to allow this.

some samples

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/2241/test1tff.jpg (http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/2241/test1tff.jpg)
http://img547.imageshack.us/img547/9121/test2p.jpg (http://img547.imageshack.us/img547/9121/test2p.jpg)
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/7719/test3xr.jpg (http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/7719/test3xr.jpg)
Title: Re: 5D Mark iii ai-servo
Post by: kacnep37 on January 07, 2013, 09:49:16 AM
some samples

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/2241/test1tff.jpg (http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/2241/test1tff.jpg)
http://img547.imageshack.us/img547/9121/test2p.jpg (http://img547.imageshack.us/img547/9121/test2p.jpg)
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/7719/test3xr.jpg (http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/7719/test3xr.jpg)

May be dog was closer than your focus range on the lens?
Title: Re: 5D Mark iii ai-servo
Post by: DigiDen on January 07, 2013, 09:50:19 AM
mdf is 1.2m, here the distance is much greater
Title: Re: 5D Mark iii ai-servo
Post by: Dylan777 on January 07, 2013, 09:52:02 AM
My fav AI servo is case2 with 4pts AF expansion mode.

Shooting info: Tv, 1/800
http://albums.phanfare.com/isolated/zI4RaRdU/1/5903066 (http://albums.phanfare.com/isolated/zI4RaRdU/1/5903066)

Title: Re: 5D Mark iii ai-servo
Post by: DigiDen on January 07, 2013, 09:54:02 AM
Check your AI Servo Priority setting.  Looks like you could have it set to Release/Speed Priority rather than Focus Priority or Equal Priority.


I tried
defalult for both (Release Priority and Speed Priority), Focus priority for both, Release Priority and Focus Priority
Title: Re: 5D Mark iii ai-servo
Post by: DigiDen on January 07, 2013, 09:59:00 AM
My fav AI servo is case2 with 4pts AF expansion mode.

Shooting info: Tv, 1/800
http://albums.phanfare.com/isolated/zI4RaRdU/1/5903066 (http://albums.phanfare.com/isolated/zI4RaRdU/1/5903066)

in this samples you have large DOF, but on the tele + f/2.8 dof is very small
Title: Re: 5D Mark iii ai-servo
Post by: East Wind Photography on January 07, 2013, 10:59:45 AM
So first of all servo AF is not always 100% no matter how you have your settings.  This is true on any camera.  The goal is to increase your keep rate.  You will always have AF failures. To compensate for AF inaccuracies, use a smaller aperture which will mask some of the problem and increase your hit rate.

5DIII has very low noise level so in good lighting you can use ISO 1000 or higher and F/7.1 or even F/8.  I wouldnt go higher than F/8 though.  The increased DOF at F8 will increase your keeper rate.  I use that with shooting birds in flight.  I still only get 50% to 75% keeper rate but of those, the focus is tack sharp.  Take lots of pictures to increase the % of keeper shots.

I typically shoot 400-500 shots in a couple of hours and end up keeping only a hand full of shots.  It's all in the numbers.  Keep at it and you will find the right mix of settings.

The lens and camera are both top of the line.  Most of the issues people have are from not having the camera set up right for the purpose they are shooting.  5DIII is a complex pro level camera and to make best use of the AF, you need to have it set up correctly.  It's not like one of the older models that have to do pretty good in all situations.  The new system lets you adjust so it can perform better in specific purposes.
Title: Re: 5D Mark iii ai-servo
Post by: East Wind Photography on January 07, 2013, 11:02:18 AM
Forgot to add that I use case 2 mostly and center point only in most action shots.  Sometimes use spot focus if the background is not smooth.  I can use all focus points if I'm shooting against a plain sky or have a very large subject that is high contrast...say the head of a bald eagle when it's pretty close to me.  Otherwise I use center focus point or spot focus.
Title: Re: 5D Mark iii ai-servo
Post by: EvilTed on January 07, 2013, 11:05:55 AM
How did you get the red focus highlights with Ai-Servo?
I thought this was one of the main complaints with the 5D MK3?
I can't get any to show up with mine :(

Also, not to hi-jack this thread, but can Ai-Servo be used with single shot as a method of tracking moving subjects?
I think it can.
If so, how does back button focus work in this mode.

I would hope that while depressed, the camera would continue to track the subject and when released focused would be locked?
It's just that without red highlights I'm unable to see this.

Thanks

ET
Title: Re: 5D Mark iii ai-servo
Post by: Rui Brito on January 07, 2013, 11:26:15 AM
Could the focus distance limiter button be the problem?
Title: Re: 5D Mark iii ai-servo
Post by: East Wind Photography on January 07, 2013, 11:28:03 AM
The red focus highlight has not been a real issue for me.  It's a problem for some that shoot in low light levels such as indoor weddings.  Outside in bright sun is not an issue.

AI Servo is different from One Shot which only AF's once on shutter button half press.  So I assume you mean drive mode vs single shot mode.  Servo AF will work in either drive mode or single mode and AF will continue to track while the shutter is depressed half way.

Two settings I use the most are to set the DOF test button on the front to toggle between One Shot and AI Servo.  The other is to set the AF-ON button on the back to disable AF only.  Allows you to acquire focus in Servo mode, disable AF quickly to recompose the shot.  Obviously not good for action but great for sitting birds or dogs.

In AI Servo mode you currently cannot get AF point highlight.  Rumor has it that it's something Canon is working on but is not an easy fix as the highlight affects the exposure if it's on when the camera meters the exposure.



How did you get the red focus highlights with Ai-Servo?
I thought this was one of the main complaints with the 5D MK3?
I can't get any to show up with mine :(

Also, not to hi-jack this thread, but can Ai-Servo be used with single shot as a method of tracking moving subjects?
I think it can.
If so, how does back button focus work in this mode.

I would hope that while depressed, the camera would continue to track the subject and when released focused would be locked?
It's just that without red highlights I'm unable to see this.

Thanks

ET
Title: Re: 5D Mark iii ai-servo
Post by: DigiDen on January 07, 2013, 11:34:33 AM
So first of all servo AF is not always 100% no matter how you have your settings. 

The lens and camera are both top of the line. 

I think, I need to change camera for 1 DX, will it make result better?
but if af of both cameras is the same, so will result be the same ?
also 1DX have more power for USM may be it wiil help ?
Title: Re: 5D Mark iii ai-servo
Post by: East Wind Photography on January 07, 2013, 11:44:41 AM
Yes the 1DX will be better in a number of respects.  Lower noise level so can use even higher ISO and thus larger F stop and higher shutter speed, Adds color detection to AF system so it should be better at tracking things if the color is different from the background.  Higher voltage batteries also increase AF response time with USM motors (though with the 70-200 2.8L is II on the 5D3 this would not add much but it might be more noticeable when using a 1.4 or 2X converter with the lens).

There are other benefits as well but these are more in tune with the subject of this thread.

So first of all servo AF is not always 100% no matter how you have your settings. 

The lens and camera are both top of the line. 

I think, I need to change camera for 1 DX, will it make result better?
but if af of both cameras is the same, so will result be the same ?
also 1DX have more power for USM may be it wiil help ?
Title: Re: 5D Mark iii ai-servo
Post by: DigiDen on January 07, 2013, 11:57:20 AM
Adds color detection to AF system so it should be better at tracking things if the color is different from the background.

does it work only in "61 points automatic selection AF" ?
or does color detection work in Zone AF and Extended too ?
Title: Re: 5D Mark iii ai-servo
Post by: Dianoda on January 07, 2013, 12:04:07 PM
How did you get the red focus highlights with Ai-Servo?
I thought this was one of the main complaints with the 5D MK3?
I can't get any to show up with mine :(

Also, not to hi-jack this thread, but can Ai-Servo be used with single shot as a method of tracking moving subjects?
I think it can.
If so, how does back button focus work in this mode.

I would hope that while depressed, the camera would continue to track the subject and when released focused would be locked?
It's just that without red highlights I'm unable to see this.

Thanks

ET

If the camera is set to focus using the AF-On button and the camera is in AI-Servo AF mode, then camera will continually auto focus using the active AF point(s) for so long as the AF-On button is depressed.  But AI-Servo AF never locks like One-Shot mode does, it just continually tracks as long as AF is active, so if you release AF-On and auto focus is only mapped to AF-On, then the camera is no longer auto-focusing - the focus position just stops wherever it is when you let go of AF-On.
Title: Re: 5D Mark iii ai-servo
Post by: Studio1930 on January 07, 2013, 12:26:53 PM
Many times it is the technique used that makes the difference.  I have allowed others to use my camera with the exact setup I use shooting the exact same event I am shooting and they often get 50% less keepers due to their technique.

With that being said, here are my often used settings when shooting moving subjects like dogs with a 1DX:

Dark (indoor) conditions:
TV  1/1000s (200mm f/2 usually at f/2 or 2.2)
Auto ISO
AI servo
Case 4
Single point selection with 4 point expansion
AI servo 1st image priority set to equal
AI servo 2nd image priority set to focus

Bright (outdoor) conditions:
AV (200mm f/2 usually at f/2.2 to 4.5)
ISO fixed (usually 50 to 400 ND filter if needed)
AI servo
Case 6
61 point auto switching with first point selected. (used when background is not busy)
ITR on
AI servo 1st image priority set to equal
AI servo 2nd image priority set to focus


(http://studio1930.com/image_share/s1930/weave1.jpg)

(http://studio1930.com/photocart/photos/18-disc_dogs/10196-3rd_disc_dog_hot_jam_7142012/dl_cb8d7Ecc_20120714S1930-06609.JPG)
Title: Re: 5D Mark iii ai-servo
Post by: chauncey on January 07, 2013, 12:51:27 PM
FYI...this is going to be live tomorrow and is free if ya pre-register...you would get some clues on your set-up
http://www.creativelive.com/courses/canon-1dx-dslr-fast-start?utm_source=Greengo+Fast+Start%2FCanon+1DX&utm_campaign=103460d7c5-Greengo_FastStartCanon1DX_tomorrow_Jan7&utm_medium=email (http://www.creativelive.com/courses/canon-1dx-dslr-fast-start?utm_source=Greengo+Fast+Start%2FCanon+1DX&utm_campaign=103460d7c5-Greengo_FastStartCanon1DX_tomorrow_Jan7&utm_medium=email)
Title: Re: 5D Mark iii ai-servo
Post by: DigiDen on January 07, 2013, 01:05:08 PM
Many times it is the technique used that makes the difference.  I have allowed others to use my camera with the exact setup I use shooting the exact same event I am shooting and they often get 50% less keepers due to their technique.

Thanks for more informations, it's helpful.
Few questions
- Have you used 5D Mark III or 1D Mark 4 on dogs? If yes, what was the result in contrast with 1Dx?
- "ITR on" - does it influence on the result?
Title: Re: 5D Mark iii ai-servo
Post by: Studio1930 on January 07, 2013, 01:09:33 PM
FYI...this is going to be live tomorrow and is free if ya pre-register...you would get some clues on your set-up
http://www.creativelive.com/courses/canon-1dx-dslr-fast-start?utm_source=Greengo+Fast+Start%2FCanon+1DX&utm_campaign=103460d7c5-Greengo_FastStartCanon1DX_tomorrow_Jan7&utm_medium=email (http://www.creativelive.com/courses/canon-1dx-dslr-fast-start?utm_source=Greengo+Fast+Start%2FCanon+1DX&utm_campaign=103460d7c5-Greengo_FastStartCanon1DX_tomorrow_Jan7&utm_medium=email)

Thanks.
Title: Re: 5D Mark iii ai-servo
Post by: Studio1930 on January 07, 2013, 01:15:21 PM
Many times it is the technique used that makes the difference.  I have allowed others to use my camera with the exact setup I use shooting the exact same event I am shooting and they often get 50% less keepers due to their technique.

Thanks for more informations, it's helpful.
Few questions
- Have you used 5D Mark III or 1D Mark 4 on dogs? If yes, what was the result in contrast with 1Dx?
- "ITR on" - does it influence on the result?

I still own a 1D4 and use it for dog sports as well.  The 1D4 does an excellent job tracking (much better than the 5D series cameras) but the 1DX made my keeper rate go up another 30% I would say.  I would still have no problem shooting with the 1D4 for dog sports and often do when I need more reach (crop factor) but if I need high ISO (5000 and up) then I must use the 1DX.

ITR on appears to work well when using the 61 point auto switching when there isn't a confusing background.  It would probably work well with those example shots in the first post.  It really does track well when you use the first point selected method with 61 point auto switching and ITR on.  If you have a black and white dog and black and white objects in the background then all bets are off for auto switching, for example. 

I have used ITR to track frisbees being thrown when the background is blurred and mostly green as in that example.  It does a great job and only hops off subject every once in a while.  Again, my technique made a difference when trying to keep it tracking the frisbees and I had to "learn" things a bit more when I started using the 1DX. I had lots of blurred images at first until I learned to use the right settings and technique.
Title: Re: 5D Mark iii ai-servo
Post by: DigiDen on January 07, 2013, 01:20:26 PM
Thanx !