canon rumors FORUM

Rumors => EOS Bodies => Topic started by: expatinasia on February 01, 2013, 03:37:47 AM

Title: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: expatinasia on February 01, 2013, 03:37:47 AM
Interesting interview on dpreview:

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/0336328811/cp-2013-interview-with-canons-masaya-maeda (http://www.dpreview.com/articles/0336328811/cp-2013-interview-with-canons-masaya-maeda)
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: vlim on February 01, 2013, 04:05:01 AM
I was just reading this... it doesn't look good for a 7D mark II this year and in the future >:(
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: expatinasia on February 01, 2013, 04:11:22 AM
I am not so sure. I think it means if and when there is a 7D Mark II it is likely to be full frame.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: Apop on February 01, 2013, 04:18:25 AM
Oww:(, i hope the 7dII wont be fullframe,

How about it will have a 1.3 crop factor!!!! (they are moving away from that in the 1d series)
Wouldn't be unthinkable that they put it in the next 7d , will improve the noise performance a bit...

So maybe a upgraded 1d mkiv sensor ! (some more mp)
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: sandymandy on February 01, 2013, 04:44:40 AM
There is no reason not to have FF cameras except production cost. that will be solved in the future and hopefully all cameras will be FF. Tough i guess APS-C will still always be around. I mean "back in the days" everybody was fine with 35mm film also  :o

A good step Canon :P Just get 1.4TC for reach...
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: carlosmeldano on February 01, 2013, 04:50:21 AM
it sounds like 70D is going to have the same old ASP-C sensor and ASP-C sensors will only be developed for Rebels and EOS-M...

it wouldn't be a problem to produce only full frame for DSLRs but FF cameras are very expensive (entry level starts above $2000), and the 1.6x crop factor is something many people like in ASP-C.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: Canon-F1 on February 01, 2013, 04:56:47 AM
There is no reason not to have FF cameras except production cost. that will be solved in the future and hopefully all cameras will be FF. Tough i guess APS-C will still always be around. I mean "back in the days" everybody was fine with 35mm film also  :o

A good step Canon :P Just get 1.4TC for reach...

flawed logic.. you will always have more reach with a crop and a 1.4 TC. :)

and FF will always be more expensive to produce then APS-C, if the price difference matters is a different question.
but a FF sensors has a bigger surface.
so you could always produce more APS-C sensors then FF sensors on a wafer.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: rs on February 01, 2013, 04:59:49 AM
I am not so sure. I think it means if and when there is a 7D Mark II it is likely to be full frame.
The 7D is the fast sports camera of the 1.6x crop range - the fastest frame rate, the best AF, the best viewfinder, the best weather sealing and the highest price.

Scale that up to FF, and you've got the 1D X. Cut back on the price and something has to give. If you mostly let frame rate and weather sealing slip, you end up with the 5D mk III. Let everything slip and you've got the 6D but an even more competitive price.

If Canon really do drop the premium APS-C camera line up when the 7D is discontinued, I can't see anything called a 7D mk II ever be released. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't remember any camera line ever switching sensor size without some naming convention change such as 1D then 1Ds.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: insanitybeard on February 01, 2013, 05:12:59 AM
The 7D is the fast sports camera of the 1.6x crop range - the fastest frame rate, the best AF, the best viewfinder, the best weather sealing and the highest price.

Scale that up to FF, and you've got the 1D X. Cut back on the price and something has to give. If you mostly let frame rate and weather sealing slip, you end up with the 5D mk III. Let everything slip and you've got the 6D but an even more competitive price.

If Canon really do drop the premium APS-C camera line up when the 7D is discontinued, I can't see anything called a 7D mk II ever be released. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can't remember any camera line ever switching sensor size without some naming convention change such as 1D then 1Ds.

Agreed on the above, but at least regarding the weathersealing, my understanding was that the 5D mk3 sealing was at least as good as the 7D's. I look at the 5D mk3 as a full frame version of the 7D with pretty much the same layout and feature set (and probably a few more besides- such as the higher spec AF) but with a slightly lower frame rate.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: vlim on February 01, 2013, 05:38:02 AM
Quote
7D Mark II it is likely to be full frame

so it won't be named 7d but may be 4d or another number...
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: pj1974 on February 01, 2013, 06:00:01 AM
Hi CR folks

I think people should not be reading more into what Masaya said than what he ACTUALLY said.  Remember, the unquoted parts of that interview are simply DPReview's 'take' on it... nothing more (and nothing less, I have respect for DPReview). Quite a bit of what is written in this post assumes incorrectly.

What Masaya actually said about 70D and/or 7DmkII in the interview is very little, and not concrete about those models nor related to the possibility of which models will still be produced, and when, etc, but rather he is talking about market segmentation.   ???

So, careful and critical reading and analysis of what Masaya said specifically regarding APS-C and 70D / 7DmkII is  required.  His words are in bold in this part of that link / article, which I'm copying & highlighting below:

DPR: ... the future of APS-C at the semi-pro level is in doubt, he says:
'That's something we're considering at the moment. From our semi-pro users there's still demand for APS-C but in the future, I think we will see an increase in the number of full-frame models.'
DPR: Either way, that doesn't close the door on an EOS 70D though - when asked when we can expect one, Maeda promises: 'some day in the future. Without fail.

I'm a manager in the Australian Government, and part of my job is to write very specific documentation / policy and to read critically. (I'm not trying to boast, just applying some of my skills here).

So, my take on what Masaya actually says is as follows:
- Canon realises a significant proportion of semi-pros currently demand APS-C
- In the future, Canon believes there will possibly be more demand from semi-pros for FF
- That doesn't mean some or many semi-pros will still want / prefer / need / demand an APS-C
- Which in turn means that Canon needs to determine how to market future models like 70D and 7DmkII
- the feature set and segment positioning of the 70D (& 7DmkII) might be quite determined by the 700D / entry level Canon APS-C DLSRs
- A 7DmkII is still likely on the cards. I think planning, research & development of the 7DmkII has happened some years ago, and R&D are being finalised soon - then ready for production (nowhere does Masaya hint that a 7DmkII is off the cards)
- the 7D has been a popular and long-living successful camera for Canon (ie good profit). I think Canon realise if they create another successful, and perhaps 'noticably improved in some aspects' 7DmkII, they can get a lot of mileage out of it, that is: good profit again.
- Canon is smart and would be very conscious about brand loyalty, and if they remove a 'top of the line APS-C, while the competition offer good top of the line APS-C sized DSLRs, then some folk who don't want to (or can't afford) the jump to FF, may go to other brands.
- equivalent FF lenses are often significantly more expensive than APS-C (when I write 'equivalent' - I mainly mean in terms of 'effective' focal length. (I do realise there are many other aspects to be considered than focal length, but I don't want to write pages here on that!)

Well... feel free to comment on what I've written and determined from the interview!

Totally apart from DPReview's interview - I believe we'll see some high level APS-C cameras.  There are serious Canon EF-S lenses (eg 15-85mm, 17-55mm, 10-22mm, 60mm macro, etc) and many EF lenses (eg 70-300mm L, 100mm macro, etc) that just work so well on APS-C too!

Cheers and regards. Wishing all a wonderful weekend... it's Friday evening here in Australia! YAY!!   8)

Paul
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: rpt on February 01, 2013, 06:06:01 AM
There is no reason not to have FF cameras except production cost. that will be solved in the future and hopefully all cameras will be FF. Tough i guess APS-C will still always be around. I mean "back in the days" everybody was fine with 35mm film also  :o

A good step Canon :P Just get 1.4TC for reach...
And the promised f8 AF fix! :)
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: AvTvM on February 01, 2013, 06:29:29 AM
the interview confirms my worst fears.

* a few more gazillions of consumer compacts with 1/2.3" sensors, until the will all sit unsold in a huge warehouse
* APS-C will be condemned to cumsumer cr*p only (70D)
* Hi-End specced 7D II is NOT going to happen
* High-End EOS-M is  NOT going to happen
* Full-frame mirrorless - with or without mount - is NOT going to happen
* Canon has no new sensor generation anywhere near ready that could compete with Sony (Nikon)
* Canon will fail in the stills imaging market

They really need to fire this Masaya Maeda guy and get somebody in with an understanding of the market.

Note to myself: no more investments in Canon glass, it'd be wasted.
And If I am forced to buy a FF camera just to get a halfway decent AF-System and specs ... it'll be the Nikon D800.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: honsten on February 01, 2013, 06:30:33 AM
PJ1974 - I think you're right, people often read between the lines and see something completely subjective.

To paraphrase Maeda, he says there may room for more FF bodies in the lineup - I'm struggling to see where they will fit in... Eg: which side of the 5D would they go, better or worse?

Maybe they will drop the pentaprisms and have a model on each side: a 1DX feature set but with EVF to fit between the standard 1D and 5D and then an EVF model based on the 6D that would fit in just below the latter.
Basically two EOS M Pro models.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: docsmith on February 01, 2013, 07:29:08 AM
Did we read the same article?  Did I miss something?  The 7DII isn't mentioned.  Of course, it would have been a positive sign if he had mentioned it, but it is not necessarily a bad sign for not mentioning it.  He just said "I think we will see an increase in the number of full-frame models." 

Is he talking short term future, long term future.  It isn't said. I get the speculation, but just like when pushed he confirmed you'll see a 70D, the 7DII could be in the works as well.

Personally, Canon...if you are listening....Keep semi-pro APS-C.  I'll buy a high quality 7DII as soon as it is available for pre-order.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: ecka on February 01, 2013, 08:01:07 AM
Personally, Canon...if you are listening....Keep semi-pro APS-C.  I'll buy a high quality 7DII as soon as it is available for pre-order.

Even if it's just the same old 7D with built-in GPS, WiFi, new CPU and extra SD slot?
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: LewisShermer on February 01, 2013, 08:18:18 AM
What's everyones beef with FF? the only reason I had crop sensors was because I couldn't afford FF, but then I saved some money, sold all my crop sensor stuff (7D/60D/EF-s Lenses) and bought a FF set up which is loads better in terms of IQ and cropping to get the best out of lenses like a 50mm, 85mm & 100mm. You will obviously have to invest in wide to mid-range zoom (24-105 which is kit anyway) and a longer lens reaching to 400mm if you still want the "reach" of a crop sensor (which is a total facade anyway) or you could maybe get a metre or 2 closer to the subject.

the only thing that you're giving up is the FPS of the 7D... which you're not anyway as you still have all your 7D's. canon will not make the decision to stop all crop sensors and then come round to your house and smash all your 7D's so you have to buy new FF cameras. They've served you well this far, the only issue is that they're not going to get much improvements so just keep them as at low ISO they're very good cameras.

In a couple of years the 5Diii and 1Dx will be antiquated technology and the standard for pro/semi-pro DSLR will be 46mp and ISO at 999999999999999 has zero noise so wait for a little while and get the 1Dx at a much lower price when the standard of the 22mp FF sensor IQ of that becomes deplorable...
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: Marsu42 on February 01, 2013, 08:18:47 AM
http://www.dpreview.com/articles/0336328811/cp-2013-interview-with-canons-masaya-maeda (http://www.dpreview.com/articles/0336328811/cp-2013-interview-with-canons-masaya-maeda)
That's really interesting - and if only because it says I was correct all the way along predicting the semipro-crop segment being sandwiched between pressure from below (better Rebels and competition) and above (more future potential in ff than in the nearly maxed out aps-c) ;->

And also interesting to see one of the guys responsible for Canon's strategy - I can imagine him supporting what dpreview.com calls the "conservative, slightly unimaginative design that's become the company's hallmark"

Last not least with the upcoming new ff models he imho more or less confirms that even Canon figures that the expensive 5d3 and the feature-reduced "5d mk2 mk2" = 6d is not for everyone...
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: MintMark on February 01, 2013, 08:34:20 AM
There is no reason not to have FF cameras except production cost. that will be solved in the future and hopefully all cameras will be FF. Tough i guess APS-C will still always be around. I mean "back in the days" everybody was fine with 35mm film also  :o

A good step Canon :P Just get 1.4TC for reach...

flawed logic.. you will always have more reach with a crop and a 1.4 TC. :)

and FF will always be more expensive to produce then APS-C, if the price difference matters is a different question.
but a FF sensors has a bigger surface.
so you could always produce more APS-C sensors then FF sensors on a wafer.

And you can always crop a larger image into a smaller image...
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: DanielW on February 01, 2013, 09:12:35 AM
...and that's why I'm keeping my humble 60D, 17-55, 50 1.4 and flash kit, and buying myself a Fuji X20 or ax X100s, with all its "limitations", for carrying around and for family events. In the future I'll probably get the successor of the X-Pro1 or X-E1, or even the successor of the Olympus OM-D EM-5, and carry lighter gear. The 60D is great and serves me pretty well -- I'm keeping it --, but my razor-thin DoF fever is cooling off pretty quickly and it looks like Fuji's line of thinking fits the bill better than Canon's for my needs.
Anyone else considering Fuji or Olympus?
Cheers,
Daniel
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: dstppy on February 01, 2013, 09:34:20 AM
Personally, Canon...if you are listening....Keep semi-pro APS-C.  I'll buy a high quality 7DII as soon as it is available for pre-order.

Even if it's just the same old 7D with built-in GPS, WiFi, new CPU and extra SD slot?

DigicV+ and tight/wide MFA?

absolutely

Everything else is just gravy.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: pedro on February 01, 2013, 09:50:01 AM
Hi CR folks

I think people should not be reading more into what Masaya said than what he ACTUALLY said.  Remember, the unquoted parts of that interview are simply DPReview's 'take' on it... nothing more (and nothing less, I have respect for DPReview). Quite a bit of what is written in this post assumes incorrectly.

What Masaya actually said about 70D and/or 7DmkII in the interview is very little, and not concrete about those models nor related to the possibility of which models will still be produced, and when, etc, but rather he is talking about market segmentation.   ???

So, careful and critical reading and analysis of what Masaya said specifically regarding APS-C and 70D / 7DmkII is  required.  His words are in bold in this part of that link / article, which I'm copying & highlighting below:

DPR: ... the future of APS-C at the semi-pro level is in doubt, he says:
'That's something we're considering at the moment. From our semi-pro users there's still demand for APS-C but in the future, I think we will see an increase in the number of full-frame models.'
DPR: Either way, that doesn't close the door on an EOS 70D though - when asked when we can expect one, Maeda promises: 'some day in the future. Without fail.

I'm a manager in the Australian Government, and part of my job is to write very specific documentation / policy and to read critically. (I'm not trying to boast, just applying some of my skills here).

So, my take on what Masaya actually says is as follows:
- Canon realises a significant proportion of semi-pros currently demand APS-C
- In the future, Canon believes there will possibly be more demand from semi-pros for FF
- That doesn't mean some or many semi-pros will still want / prefer / need / demand an APS-C
- Which in turn means that Canon needs to determine how to market future models like 70D and 7DmkII
- the feature set and segment positioning of the 70D (& 7DmkII) might be quite determined by the 700D / entry level Canon APS-C DLSRs
- A 7DmkII is still likely on the cards. I think planning, research & development of the 7DmkII has happened some years ago, and R&D are being finalised soon - then ready for production (nowhere does Masaya hint that a 7DmkII is off the cards)
- the 7D has been a popular and long-living successful camera for Canon (ie good profit). I think Canon realise if they create another successful, and perhaps 'noticably improved in some aspects' 7DmkII, they can get a lot of mileage out of it, that is: good profit again.
- Canon is smart and would be very conscious about brand loyalty, and if they remove a 'top of the line APS-C, while the competition offer good top of the line APS-C sized DSLRs, then some folk who don't want to (or can't afford) the jump to FF, may go to other brands.
- equivalent FF lenses are often significantly more expensive than APS-C (when I write 'equivalent' - I mainly mean in terms of 'effective' focal length. (I do realise there are many other aspects to be considered than focal length, but I don't want to write pages here on that!)

Well... feel free to comment on what I've written and determined from the interview!

Totally apart from DPReview's interview - I believe we'll see some high level APS-C cameras.  There are serious Canon EF-S lenses (eg 15-85mm, 17-55mm, 10-22mm, 60mm macro, etc) and many EF lenses (eg 70-300mm L, 100mm macro, etc) that just work so well on APS-C too!

Cheers and regards. Wishing all a wonderful weekend... it's Friday evening here in Australia! YAY!!   8)

Paul
thanks pj for these informations and your hermeneutics on it. So what Canon could do with a 7DII is to equip it with the 6Ds FF sensor and built in 1.6 crop mode, improve the weather sealing and they're done. Anyone?
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: AprilForever on February 01, 2013, 10:16:31 AM
There is no reason not to have FF cameras except production cost. that will be solved in the future and hopefully all cameras will be FF. Tough i guess APS-C will still always be around. I mean "back in the days" everybody was fine with 35mm film also  :o

A good step Canon :P Just get 1.4TC for reach...

It will always be cheaper to use APS-C than ff. 12 fps full frame? 6000 bucks. Hopefully we will see a APS-C 7D mk II at 12 or 10 fps at no more than 2500...
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: neuroanatomist on February 01, 2013, 10:16:45 AM
PJ1974 - I think you're right, people often read between the lines and see something completely subjective.

+1 - when a corporate talking head makes statements like, "'That's something we're considering at the moment. From our semi-pro users there's still demand for APS-C but in the future, I think we will see an increase in the number of full-frame models,'" the 'in the future' part is very forward-looking, and it could be years before that becomes reality. 

IIRC, Canon stated several years ago that their goal was eventually move to all full frame sensors.  Eventually, as in 'some day' - we're still pretty far from that day, IMO.

This interview is nowhere close to a 'nail in the coffin' for a 7D Mark II - I think we'll see both a 70D and a 7D Mark II this year, and both will be APS-C.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: insanitybeard on February 01, 2013, 11:07:00 AM
I know this is all conjecture, but it would really surprise me if Canon did not look to refresh and continue the 7D line, surely the 7D has been too successful to consign to history. From a marketing point of view, it would be a giant gamble on Canon's part to discontinue one of their best selling camera bodies based on the logic that it would force potential 7D customers to go full frame, unless full frame bodies- and glass- become cheap enough to be a viable alternative. In the current economic climate, most people only have a finite amount of money to spend on what for many is a hobby.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: Don Haines on February 01, 2013, 11:17:59 AM
This interview is nowhere close to a 'nail in the coffin' for a 7D Mark II - I think we'll see both a 70D and a 7D Mark II this year, and both will be APS-C.

I believe he said "'some day in the future. Without fail". I agree.... that's nowhere near " a nail in the coffin".

This forum seems to constantly breaking down into diatribes about the superiority of FF and how APS-C  produces inferior results, and completely misses the point. The vast number of consumers are NOT going to shell out the money to purchase the latest and greatest cameras and lenses, they are happy with good value for the dollar. If a company delivers good value for the dollar to the mass market, then they will survive. Canon is represented across the camera spectrum with many different models and capacities. If a segment of that spectrum is selling well, they are not going to shut it down and force those consumers to go elsewhere.

We members of this forum are not the typical market.... how many of us have spent over $1000 for a lens? How many of the masses will not spend $500? We are like race car drivers who bitterly complain that economy cars do not have 1000hp motors...... a disconnect from reality.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: sandymandy on February 01, 2013, 11:47:48 AM
flawed logic.. you will always have more reach with a crop and a 1.4 TC. :)

And how many people are actually using a 1.4TC on an APS-C body? Its quite rare imho. I can also say add more n more extension rings if u just care about reach....flawed logic


Only advantage of APS-C is reach and price. But u dont have to save a lot more to get a better FF body than the endlevel APS-C. Yes, i hate APS-C or anything smaller than FF :P Still using it tough  ::)
I just think there are too many Canon DSLR models and levels. They should have entry, advanced and pro. Why there is like super entry (xxxxD), normal entry (xxxD), upper entry (xxD) advanced (7D) upper advance (6D) end Advanced (5D) and pro (1dX)? Its just too many imho. And all APS-C produce the same image quality. mostly the rebels even produce better images then the 7D cuz they get updated more often  ::)
I would NEVER get a 7D if it gives the same IQ as the cheapest DSLR from Canon. Paying so much money just for a better body material is ridicoulus imho. Or wow 10 FPS? Press and pray is not my style... If i wanna be somewhat professional id at least get a 5D.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: unfocused on February 01, 2013, 12:18:52 PM
Paul (PJ1974), Honsten and Neuro,

I'm with you guys. This is a very brief and vague interview. I took the references to APS-C as meaning "our crystal ball is in the shop. We are watching the market and it may be that some day, the niche now filled by semi-pro APS-C might be replaced by full-frame, but we don't know that yet."

On the other hand, I want to rant about about the photo news media. I don't understand why industry writers have to be such sycophants. They never ask the tough questions of these executives, but instead behave like a bunch of lap dogs letting these executives sail through the interviews with softball questions.

Almost anyone who comments on this forum could have asked better questions:

The street price of the 5DIII has dropped to below $3,000 since introduction. Was your market research wrong when you originally priced the 5DIII, did you underestimate the competition, or was this a conscious strategy to maximize return on early adopters?

Canon seems to be pricing its latest lenses at stratospheric levels. What's your target market for these lenses?

Your APS-C sensor is now more than three years old. Many are questioning whether or not Canon has the engineering bench strength to compete with other manufacturers and innovate in sensor development. What's your response?

The 6D has been criticized as being under-spec'd in comparison to Nikon's D600. Are you concerned about that?

The list could go on and on, but instead, we get a tiny little interview completely dictated by the corporate messengers.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: Don Haines on February 01, 2013, 12:35:51 PM
Press and pray is not my style... If i wanna be somewhat professional id at least get a 5D.

I find "press and pray" to be a very derogatory reference to a very usefull tool.

Follow this scenario....
On the riverbank we have three people taking pictures of a osprey fishing. We have Neuro, with a 1DX and 600mm lens, we have me with a 1Dx and a 600mm lens, and we have my neice with a point/shoot.... Neuro has the presence of mind (and probably has scans to prove it :) ) to set his camera for burst mode at 10 frames per second... I rely on pushing the shutter quickly, and my neice has to wait a few seconds between pictures......

The Osprey swoops down and snatches up a fish...... Neuro has about 15 shots to choose from as the fish is picked up out of the water.... I have 3 or 4.... my neice gets one from a second after the grab. Who do you think got the nicest shot?.... And as an asside, who do you think is going to be the most excited and happiest with thier picture?
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: docsmith on February 01, 2013, 12:37:40 PM
Personally, Canon...if you are listening....Keep semi-pro APS-C.  I'll buy a high quality 7DII as soon as it is available for pre-order.

Even if it's just the same old 7D with built-in GPS, WiFi, new CPU and extra SD slot?

No, by "High Quality" I am refering to other improvements.  I'd like it to be slightly sharper, better performance at low ISO and hopefully some improved performance at higher ISO.

Regarding the 5DIII price, just look at the value of the yen.  February 2012 it was trading at ~75 yen per $1 USD.  Now it is trading at ~92 yen per $1 USD.  Since I don't know what BH or Adorama actually paid for a 5DIII, I'll use the street price.  The $3,500 paid for a 5DIII in February 2012 netted Canon 262,500 yen.   Assuming 262,500 yen is the "factory price" of a 5DIII, Canon is getting the same 262,500 yen for $2,850 USD today. 

Combine that with most new items dropping after initial release and you have today's sub $3k 5DIII.

Honestly, even though we are paying less (sub $3k) for a 5DIII right now, Canon may be making the same or even a little more of a profit now than last year.  That is the power of the devaluation of the yen.  Now, think about lenses.  Those prices haven't gone down.  Canon should be doing pretty well there right now.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: AprilForever on February 01, 2013, 12:44:25 PM
flawed logic.. you will always have more reach with a crop and a 1.4 TC. :)

And how many people are actually using a 1.4TC on an APS-C body? Its quite rare imho. I can also say add more n more extension rings if u just care about reach....flawed logic


Only advantage of APS-C is reach and price. But u dont have to save a lot more to get a better FF body than the endlevel APS-C. Yes, i hate APS-C or anything smaller than FF :P Still using it tough  ::)
I just think there are too many Canon DSLR models and levels. They should have entry, advanced and pro. Why there is like super entry (xxxxD), normal entry (xxxD), upper entry (xxD) advanced (7D) upper advance (6D) end Advanced (5D) and pro (1dX)? Its just too many imho. And all APS-C produce the same image quality. mostly the rebels even produce better images then the 7D cuz they get updated more often  ::)
I would NEVER get a 7D if it gives the same IQ as the cheapest DSLR from Canon. Paying so much money just for a better body material is ridicoulus imho. Or wow 10 FPS? Press and pray is not my style... If i wanna be somewhat professional id at least get a 5D.


A LOT of people use a TC on a APS-C body... I do all the time, both 1.4 and 2x, and have done so for a while. Many people have...
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: distant.star on February 01, 2013, 01:01:06 PM
I want to rant about about the photo news media. I don't understand why industry writers have to be such sycophants. They never ask the tough questions of these executives, but instead behave like a bunch of lap dogs letting these executives sail through the interviews with softball questions.

Almost anyone who comments on this forum could have asked better questions.

It's probably a reach to consider staff at DPReview "industry writers" or media or journalists at all. Owned by Amazon, they are simply part of the marketing system designed to make people want their products. And in my reading, I haven't seen any of them that could write their way past a decent managing editor on any legitimate publication anyway.

I've agreed with and made the same point about genuine journalism in the photography equipment world. The only two sources of objective, informed information are Big Brain (neuro) here and Roger at Lens Rentals. Much as I respect them, that makes for a damn lame world of broad photo equipment journalism. How many consumers are going to find their way to those two sources?

That said, there are two things in that interview that impress me.

First, the corporate portrait. That is as perfect a headshot as I've ever seen -- and exactly the kind of perfection I'd expect to see from Canon. Imagine being the photographer charged with doing their management headshots!

Second is this statement: "My idea is that, if you increase the size, you go with APS-C - that's the architecture that allows low light performance. That was the reason I put an APS-C sensor in the PowerShot G1 X and the EOS M - for the time being, that's the standard."

He is actually saying HE is the one who did this. I can't recall a corp exec ever putting himself "on front street" (as my 12-step friends call it) before. He has stepped outside both corporate norms as well as the whole of Japanese culture with this statement, so I find it startling. If he had said "we" did it, that would have been the usual corp drivel I'd expect. And, honestly, without that, I wouldn't even have commented on this. If I'd made some public statement like that when I was in the corp world, I'd have been raked over the coals for "being off the reservation."

Also, interesting that his two APS-C installations seem to go nowhere. At least in the west the M seems to be a dud. And as I've said before when I asked the camera staff in a local (Philadelphia area) Best Buy store about the G1X, they'd never heard of it -- had no idea any such thing existed.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: Marsu42 on February 01, 2013, 01:12:43 PM
It's probably a reach to consider staff at DPReview "industry writers" or media or journalists at all. Owned by Amazon, they are simply part of the marketing system designed to make people want their products.

Good to know, maybe this is the reason they seem to be delaying their full 6d review indefinitely (just the af performance test is missing)? They probably have a hard time deciding between sugar-coating it or looking for a new job :->
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: rpt on February 01, 2013, 01:23:13 PM
Press and pray is not my style... If i wanna be somewhat professional id at least get a 5D.

I find "press and pray" to be a very derogatory reference to a very usefull tool.

Follow this scenario....
On the riverbank we have three people taking pictures of a osprey fishing. We have Neuro, with a 1DX and 600mm lens, we have me with a 1Dx and a 600mm lens, and we have my neice with a point/shoot.... Neuro has the presence of mind (and probably has scans to prove it :) ) to set his camera for burst mode at 10 frames per second... I rely on pushing the shutter quickly, and my neice has to wait a few seconds between pictures......

The Osprey swoops down and snatches up a fish...... Neuro has about 15 shots to choose from as the fish is picked up out of the water.... I have 3 or 4.... my neice gets one from a second after the grab. Who do you think got the nicest shot?.... And as an asside, who do you think is going to be the most excited and happiest with thier picture?
Who cares! I am downstream (in the line of the bird's flight). I have an assault rifle. I shoot the bird. I have a charcoal grill ready and primed. I marinate both (after removing the feathers and descaling etc.). I grill them. Now I get to eat the bird and the fish!
 :P
<SARCASM/>
Yes!
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: Sporgon on February 01, 2013, 01:33:54 PM
I was really surprised by the amount of ringside press using 7Ds at the London Olympics.

A lot of posters on CR give the impression that they think if you're a pro you can afford anything camera wise. That may be true if the photog's employers supply the equipment, but many are not in that boat.

Canon marketing research will know exactly how the land lies regarding current and near future demand for a fast, professional APS. If there's a demand they'll supply it.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: Peerke on February 01, 2013, 01:39:48 PM
The increased interest of prosumers for FF camera will not be caused by Canon not making crop anymore, but by Canon making much cheaper FF in the (far) future.

That is how I read the words.

I like to be positive  8).
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: Marsu42 on February 01, 2013, 01:44:06 PM
The increased interest of prosumers for FF camera will not be caused by Canon not making crop anymore, but by Canon making much cheaper FF in the (far) future.

In this case, they'd better start making cheap ef lenses, too - people might want some tele lens offers that are sharp *and* don't cost 3x-5x the price of the camera body...
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: unfocused on February 01, 2013, 01:49:47 PM
I was really surprised by the amount of ringside press using 7Ds at the London Olympics.

A lot of posters on CR give the impression that they think if you're a pro you can afford anything camera wise. That may be true if the photog's employers supply the equipment, but many are not in that boat.

Canon marketing research will know exactly how the land lies regarding current and near future demand for a fast, professional APS. If there's a demand they'll supply it.

Yes, this is a point that few people understand. It's been many, many years since I was a newspaper photographer, but some things have either not changed, or changed for the worse.

Most photojournalists have to supply their own equipment. Even if their employer has some equipment available, it is often just the bare minimum and not up to date. These days, there are fewer and fewer media outlets (hardly any independent papers today) sharing fewer and fewer resources. Staff photographers are among the first jobs that get cut as there are always freelancers out there willing to work for less.

Freelancers, of course, have to supply their own equipment and that often means buying the least that will do the job.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: c-law on February 01, 2013, 02:14:37 PM
First, the corporate portrait. That is as perfect a headshot as I've ever seen -- and exactly the kind of perfection I'd expect to see from Canon. Imagine being the photographer charged with doing their management headshots!
I downloaded the file and notice that all the metadata was stripped from the photo.

I wonder what camera was used to take it?
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: rpt on February 01, 2013, 02:54:04 PM
First, the corporate portrait. That is as perfect a headshot as I've ever seen -- and exactly the kind of perfection I'd expect to see from Canon. Imagine being the photographer charged with doing their management headshots!
I downloaded the file and notice that all the metadata was stripped from the photo.

I wonder what camera was used to take it?
Nokia cell phone
 ;)
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: scrup on February 01, 2013, 03:23:05 PM
If a 70D comes out FF, what specs is it going to have so that it sits below the 6D.

Can they strip the 6D further?
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: dstppy on February 01, 2013, 03:31:16 PM
First, the corporate portrait. That is as perfect a headshot as I've ever seen -- and exactly the kind of perfection I'd expect to see from Canon. Imagine being the photographer charged with doing their management headshots!
I downloaded the file and notice that all the metadata was stripped from the photo.

I wonder what camera was used to take it?
Nokia cell phone
 ;)

So, if it was the lumia, it was totally shopped? ;D
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: TheBadger on February 01, 2013, 04:18:30 PM
...and that's why I'm keeping my humble 60D, 17-55, 50 1.4 and flash kit, and buying myself a Fuji X20 or ax X100s, with all its "limitations", for carrying around and for family events. In the future I'll probably get the successor of the X-Pro1 or X-E1, or even the successor of the Olympus OM-D EM-5, and carry lighter gear. The 60D is great and serves me pretty well -- I'm keeping it --, but my razor-thin DoF fever is cooling off pretty quickly and it looks like Fuji's line of thinking fits the bill better than Canon's for my needs.
Anyone else considering Fuji or Olympus?
Cheers,
Daniel

I am with you. I will most likely purchase the X100s and the successor of the X-E1 when it comes out, but I don't expect that to happen until 2014.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: Larry on February 01, 2013, 04:29:20 PM

Who cares! I am downstream (in the line of the bird's flight). I have an assault rifle. I shoot the bird. I have a charcoal grill ready and primed. I marinate both (after removing the feathers and descaling etc.). I grill them. Now I get to eat the bird and the fish!
 :P
<SARCASM/>
Yes!

Knowledge gap!  ???

A hunter/killer/eater with the forethought to position/wait down-flight, pre-set grill, etc., ....would have better BIF shooting equipment than an assault rifle.  ;)
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: xps on February 01, 2013, 04:36:52 PM
The increased interest of prosumers for FF camera will not be caused by Canon not making crop anymore, but by Canon making much cheaper FF in the (far) future.

In this case, they'd better start making cheap ef lenses, too - people might want some tele lens offers that are sharp *and* don't cost 3x-5x the price of the camera body...

I don´t think that Canon will do that.
The "better" compact Cameras are more and more apearing on the market. My son got an Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ200. 450€. And I think that the shots are even as good as my daughters E0s D600. Half of the price. As fast as. 

So, Canon maybe will seperate on the market. Average lenses will apear from other manufacturers. But the "Primes" will still be from Canon.  And they will be priced over 2000€
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: pdirestajr on February 01, 2013, 05:06:39 PM
Canon could always just slap a "C" to the end of the 7D name and charge 4k...
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: CarlTN on February 01, 2013, 05:07:21 PM
As I said in another thread...it was a mistake to abandon 1.3x.  It's also a mistake to cling to 1.6x.  The solution is 1.47x.  There would be no vignetting on crop lenses.  But instead, Canon will simply make cheaper T5, T6, T7, T8i's with the same 18mp sensor that was designed in 2007 or 2008, with ISO performance increasingly worse, with software bandaids to "help" it.  Why?  Because there are so many young kids today who think a Canon "rebel" is the end-all, be all of entry level DSLR's, and they think they can shoot "highend video" with them.  So they get their parents to buy them for birthdays or Christmas.  Foolishness!  Glib enough for ya'll?  Probably too long for a twitter post though, oh well, this is a forum, isn't it?
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: expatinasia on February 01, 2013, 06:53:45 PM
That said, there are two things in that interview that impress me.

First, the corporate portrait. That is as perfect a headshot as I've ever seen -- and exactly the kind of perfection I'd expect to see from Canon. Imagine being the photographer charged with doing their management headshots!

Second is this statement: "My idea is that, if you increase the size, you go with APS-C - that's the architecture that allows low light performance. That was the reason I put an APS-C sensor in the PowerShot G1 X and the EOS M - for the time being, that's the standard."

He is actually saying HE is the one who did this. I can't recall a corp exec ever putting himself "on front street" (as my 12-step friends call it) before. He has stepped outside both corporate norms as well as the whole of Japanese culture with this statement, so I find it startling. If he had said "we" did it, that would have been the usual corp drivel I'd expect. And, honestly, without that, I wouldn't even have commented on this.

These are also the two things that struck me when I read the interview excerpts. The picture is excellent, but the biggest shock was the "I" word. There is a lot you could read into that (and you do not need to work for a government to be able to do so  ;) ), and it is highly unusual for a CEO to ever say such a thing. But, until we know about how the interview was conducted there is little to say.

I want to rant about the photo news media. I don't understand why industry writers have to be such sycophants. They never ask the tough questions of these executives, but instead behave like a bunch of lap dogs letting these executives sail through the interviews with softball questions. Almost anyone who comments on this forum could have asked better questions.

You have to look at it from a business perspective. Of course anyone on this forum can ask tough questions, but as anonymous users we have nothing to lose. As you soon as you represent a company and you start asking a (potential or existing) MAJOR advertiser and possibly one of your MAJOR supporters in other ways questions, then you have to be careful. Plus it is easy to ask questions, but that does not mean you will get answers.

I wonder where the rest of the interview is, as surely they asked a lot more than this. I also wonder whether a translator was used (always dangerous), and in what setting the interview took place.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: TheBadger on February 01, 2013, 07:48:41 PM
We get it Mr. Maeda, you want us all to buy the 5D MkIII and spend $3,6K on your stuff right? Well why don't you just say it so! Why do you even bother releasing these crippled cameras? I mean, if the upcoming cameras will be at most comparable to the 6D... I really don't see any future for them!
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: expatinasia on February 01, 2013, 08:11:29 PM
Also the more I think about it, the more I believe that this was not an interview at all. Certainly not an exclusive interview. I am guessing but I think it was probably excerpts from a press conference at CP+. Maybe the press conference itself or the Q&A session after it. Of course I may be wrong but that's what I feel.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: niccon on February 02, 2013, 01:17:57 AM
well, if its main competitor/s can continue to provide a good crop sensor with market demand and profitability, likely canon will follow suit.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: CarlTN on February 02, 2013, 01:26:00 AM
The whole reason for APS-C in the first place, was because it trickled down from a smaller format film camera...which I presume was meant to compete against the earliest digital cameras, because it gave a roll of film more images to compete with the digital camera's higher image capacity.  Am I wrong?  The inclusion of the reflex mirror and eyepiece, does help a great deal with the ergonomics of using a camera, let alone its performance.  I think if you are going to pronounce the "end of crop format DSLR's", you're sounding like all those non-photog journalists who wanted to pronounce the end of the digital camera forever, simply because of the smartphone.  We may see the end of cameras one day (for various reasons)...and maybe even the end of the smartphone...but I wouldn't hold my breath.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: garyknrd on February 02, 2013, 03:03:41 AM
These guys are up against a brick wall I think, with the sensor technology. They are to far behind to catch up now. The good new is Nikon and Sony are not. They will fill the gap faster than a cat in a hat. The A 77 and the next one is due out soon I think. Nikon will use this to drive a stake threw Canon's heart. Wit no way to counter.
If that happens, I am over to Nikon or Sony,and selling the new 300 and 500 I bought. I will loose some but not much.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: greger on February 02, 2013, 03:18:33 AM
I use a 1.4 TC with my 70-200 F4 IS USM as well as the 2X TC as I want more reach. I don't think I'm rare. I will continue using the 1.4 TC as there is no image degradation. I'm still toying with the 2X and may only use it in a pinch.
I believe the 7Dll will be somehow absorbed by the 70D which will have a Magnesium alloy body and 10 frames per sec. Touch screen that articulates and maybe 20 megapixels APSC sensor. Dual Digic 6 processors, better noise handling at higher ISO's and a few more of our wish list features that others have mentioned. This will allow Canon to expand or enhance their FF cameras so 7D ll be lost in discussions and soon forgotten.

Neither Sony or Nikon can kill off Canon. They may take a few customers. The majority will find something in the Canon
line up to take those nice pics we have become used to getting from Canon cameras. 

Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: M.ST on February 02, 2013, 04:18:28 AM
I don´t believe that the future of semipro DSLRs is FF.

Semipros who needs a focal lenght from 500 or 600 mm or up don´t have the money to buy the white "big guns".

With an PS-C body they can put a 70-300 mm or 100-400 lens on it for small money.

I highly recommend to buy a APS-C body and a FF body. With an APS-C Body you can forget the teleconverters and get better image quality as with the TC´s.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: RLPhoto on February 02, 2013, 04:35:50 AM
There is always that chance that maybe an APS-H 10fps 7DII with EF-s compatability is coming. I think it would be a fantastic idea If it plays out.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: TheBadger on February 02, 2013, 07:43:52 PM
It's all diversion tactics. Mr Maeda wants its competitors to think they gave up on improving their APS-C sensors when suddenly boom! 7DII comes out with an incredible, shining new sensor. (One can dream!  :P)
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: CarlTN on February 02, 2013, 09:11:01 PM
As I said in another thread...it was a mistake to abandon 1.3x. 
I think it is a mistake to long for Canon re-introducing 1.3x.

In the (really) long run, I think that Dslr-like cameras will be all 24x36mm, while consumer-oriented interchangeable lense cameras will a wide range of sensor sizes (mainly 2x crop and less). The question is only how "long" the long run is.

-h

The long run?  Thats kind of vague.  I never said I was longing for its return, just that it was a mistake to abandon it.  Stop putting words in my mouth.  That said, my argument is to go 1.5x or however big the crop lens image circle will bear (which I still feel would be 1.47x).  Frankly, I see no evidence that 1.6x can't get larger for Canon.  Doesn't mean I think it will happen, though. I feel no need to attempt to predict what actually will come to market weeks or months from now...that would be kind of futile.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: J.R. on February 03, 2013, 01:13:19 AM
There is always that chance that maybe an APS-H 10fps 7DII with EF-s compatability is coming. I think it would be a fantastic idea If it plays out.

+1 ... I'd buy one in a heartbeat
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: AvTvM on February 03, 2013, 10:46:38 AM
it' s funny that some people still refuse to believe, that APS-H is dead and buried forever. It will not come back.

the question at hand is whether both Canon and Nikon have already decided to also kill-off APS-C in higher end semi-pro cameras, relegating it to rebels and totally lacklustre xxD bodies ... or a somewhat more inspired Nikon D7100.

To me Maeda sounds like they are just contemplating this very issue. "Shall we bring a last semi-pro APS-C DSLR (7D II) and then stop it or shall we stop it already before that ?"
And Nikon is playing the same game by not introducing a D300s successor.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: CanNotYet on February 04, 2013, 04:39:59 AM
I think that NOT releasing 7DII with an APS-C sensor would be immensely stupid of Canon.


So Canon has three groups of potential customers. The pros that need APS-C for backup/reach, the current owners of 7D that wants to update, and the consumers that wants up from Rebel/XXD but dont want/cant afford FF.

One has also to remember the effort Canon has made in EF-S lenses. Where do I go if I have an EF-S setup, and want to upgrade, but not have to sell off half my gear?

So, bottom line is: To release a 7DII (even with small tweaking, like 6D to 5DII) is a good business decision, as they will make a lot of money on it.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: bardamu on February 04, 2013, 07:19:01 AM
There really should be a place for a high-end APS-C camera - i.e. 7D / 7D mk ii...

Everyone points out that the 7D is well suited to birding, other wildlife, sports, back-up body for pros, etc.  Which it is.  But consider the benefits for macro as well:

I do (primarily) scientific macro photography, often at fairly high mag using focus stacking.  On FF the FOV at 5x with the MP-E 65mm is about 7.2mm.  With APS-C it is about 4.4mm.  A 1mm object is rather lost in the first case, but not too dwarfed in the 2nd case.  This has implications for getting a sensible histogram as well.  Photography like this also benefits from a very good viewfinder.  Solution: a 7D-like camera.

Weather-sealing is also potentially important when you're getting down-and-dirty for macro shots (at low tide for example... salt water is not good stuff for cameras).  Plus, consider that Canon's telephoto-macro lens is a  180mm non-IS with slow AF.  APS-C gives you potentially a 160mm IS with fast AF.

In my case I'm reluctant to upgrade from my 550D to a 7D because it seems odd to have 2 cameras with near identical sensors, in fact the 550D sensor is reportedly a little better than that in the 7D.  I'd prefer to upgrade the camera and the sensor simultaneously.  Not sure how much longer I can wait though, esp with the 7D getting so cheap these days.

Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: wjm on February 04, 2013, 07:43:37 AM
There is always that chance that maybe an APS-H 10fps 7DII with EF-s compatability is coming. I think it would be a fantastic idea If it plays out.

I think this is physically impossible. The image circle of a EF-s lens is too small to 'expose' the whole APS-H sensor.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: aj1575 on February 04, 2013, 08:23:22 AM
1. Stopp dreaming of an APS-H Canon Camera in the future. There is no justification for that. The price gap to a FF is too small, the focal-range conversion is arkward, it just does not fit. In the near future we will have APS-C and FF for DSLRs.

2. A EOS 70D and the 7DII will most certaily come in the near future, both with APS-C. This is only my guess, but it is logical at the moment. The gap between the xxxD and FF xD is too big, so there will be cameras in between. Seen from the productcycle, the time will come rather sooner than later.

I can understand that Canon thinks that semi pro will move to FF. The price of a 6D is where the 7D was when it came out, and it will only go down. On the other hand, it will always be cheaper to build a APS-C camera (twice as many sensors from the same waver, smaller pentaprism and shutter...). And do not forget the lenses, espacially the standard zooms, there is quite a gap between FF and APS-C in the price and the size-weight. And technology advances, that means not only that FF will get cheaper, but also that the IQ of APS-C will improve (as the one of FF), the question is, what is good enough for you?

We should also not forget that Canon has to think about its buisness; why should they tell us, that the EOS 70D or 7DII is coming in spring or fall, when many people are considering to upgrade to a 5D or a 6D, while the production of the 6D probably just shortly reached its full speed. People would buy less 6D's and wait for the 70D/7DII to have more options.

And my last input, considering Canon sensors. What I learned from different articles is, that Canon is still using a 0.5um process for their CMOS sensors, while Sony has already upgraded to 0.18um. This is one reason why Canon lacks behind in sensor technology. But this is not a technology Canon has to develop, these are just machines they buy from other companys to produce their sensors. Canon already owns machines that are capable of a 0.18um process, but does not use them for CMOS sensors yet. So I expect Canon will make the switch pretty soon (maybe the high megapixel camera is a hint for that; Canon also said that at the moment 18MP APS-C sensors are ideal for them, which makes sense in this context).
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: RLPhoto on February 04, 2013, 09:01:39 AM
There is always that chance that maybe an APS-H 10fps 7DII with EF-s compatability is coming. I think it would be a fantastic idea If it plays out.

I think this is physically impossible. The image circle of a EF-s lens is too small to 'expose' the whole APS-H sensor.

A crop mode like Nikon?
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: aj1575 on February 04, 2013, 09:23:39 AM
There is always that chance that maybe an APS-H 10fps 7DII with EF-s compatability is coming. I think it would be a fantastic idea If it plays out.

I think this is physically impossible. The image circle of a EF-s lens is too small to 'expose' the whole APS-H sensor.

A crop mode like Nikon?

Makes sense, buy (and pay)an APS-H senosr, and then run it in a crop mode...

The other problem is the mirror. EF-S lenses use the space that was freed by the smaller mirror for APS-C. I think there also would not be enough space for an APS-H mirror. But, you are free to use third-party APS-C lenses (Sigma, Tamron) even on a FF Canon Body, and crop it on your own.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: Hillsilly on February 04, 2013, 09:24:52 AM
A 7Dii has a value proposition problem.  Go back a few years and there was a big performance difference (AF, FPS) between the 7D and the 5Dii, and buying a 7D made a lot of sense to people who didn't want to step up to a 1D4.  But the 5Diii narrows the performance gap considerably.  And given the overall IQ benefits of the 5Diii, I have doubts that there would be many, if any, 7Dii buyers out there. 

We'll only see a 7Dii when Canon develops a next generation of APS-C sensors in which the image quality is noticeably better than a cropped 5Diii image.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: RLPhoto on February 04, 2013, 10:22:15 AM
There is always that chance that maybe an APS-H 10fps 7DII with EF-s compatability is coming. I think it would be a fantastic idea If it plays out.

I think this is physically impossible. The image circle of a EF-s lens is too small to 'expose' the whole APS-H sensor.

A crop mode like Nikon?

Makes sense, buy (and pay)an APS-H senosr, and then run it in a crop mode...

The other problem is the mirror. EF-S lenses use the space that was freed by the smaller mirror for APS-C. I think there also would not be enough space for an APS-H mirror. But, you are free to use third-party APS-C lenses (Sigma, Tamron) even on a FF Canon Body, and crop it on your own.

If they could do it right as not to alienate current efs lens owners and give the extra reach/IQ when using FF glass. I'd buy one.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: neuroanatomist on February 04, 2013, 10:30:31 AM
The other problem is the mirror. EF-S lenses use the space that was freed by the smaller mirror for APS-C. I think there also would not be enough space for an APS-H mirror. But, you are free to use third-party APS-C lenses (Sigma, Tamron) even on a FF Canon Body, and crop it on your own.

Exactly.  First off, the lens mount would have to be modified - there's a part of the mount of EF-S lenses designed to prevent them from mounting on EF mounts.  If you physically remove that part of the mount on a lens like the EF-S 10-22mm, you can mount it on an APS-H body like a 1DIV - if you restrict yourself to the 12-22mm range, it's fine, but at 10mm the mirror hits the back of the lens. 

Could Canon, in theory, design a mirror that doesn't have this issue?  Likely - there could be a translational motion in addition to the rotation, so the mirror could move back as it flips up, for example, and clear a protruding EF-S lens.  But frankly, this would just create confusion, IMO, and won't happen. 

A 7Dii has a value proposition problem.  Go back a few years and there was a big performance difference (AF, FPS) between the 7D and the 5Dii, and buying a 7D made a lot of sense to people who didn't want to step up to a 1D4.  But the 5Diii narrows the performance gap considerably.  And given the overall IQ benefits of the 5Diii, I have doubts that there would be many, if any, 7Dii buyers out there.

But the 5DIII sells for $3000...  So, a 7D in the price range of a 6D, with APS-C but the performance features of a 5DIII (lots of AF points, many cross type, high FPS, etc.), would 'force' consumers to choose between a FF sensor and high performance, or step up $1K to the 5DIII.  I think that would sound like a profitable situation to Canon.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: CanNotYet on February 04, 2013, 10:41:43 AM
And given the overall IQ benefits of the 5Diii, I have doubts that there would be many, if any, 7Dii buyers out there. 
I think here you are just plain wrong. Yes, the 5DIII has superior IQ, but most of the potential customers are used to APS-C quality or less (think iPhone), and they actually don't care if the 5DIII is 10, 15 or even 50% better, since it is way outside their price limit for a camera. Especially with lenses added. Most will just be satisfied with a 15-85 and a 70-300 IS USM (non-L), or just the kit 18-135! Most of the potential customers will never exceed that 3000$ line.

And for the pros wanting a backup, they will accept the hi-iso limitations etc, because their style of work does not require noiseless pictures in the dark. They value the reach much more.

We'll only see a 7Dii when Canon develops a next generation of APS-C sensors in which the image quality is noticeably better than a cropped 5Diii image.
Not necessarily true, because of the reasons above. If it is at least 5-10% better than the current 7D, most customers will accept it as good enough, when combined with other upgrades, like wide-tele AFMA, GPS/WiFi, bigger screen etc. etc.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: jrista on February 04, 2013, 11:27:29 AM
Hi CR folks

I think people should not be reading more into what Masaya said than what he ACTUALLY said.  Remember, the unquoted parts of that interview are simply DPReview's 'take' on it... nothing more (and nothing less, I have respect for DPReview). Quite a bit of what is written in this post assumes incorrectly.

What Masaya actually said about 70D and/or 7DmkII in the interview is very little, and not concrete about those models nor related to the possibility of which models will still be produced, and when, etc, but rather he is talking about market segmentation.   ???

So, careful and critical reading and analysis of what Masaya said specifically regarding APS-C and 70D / 7DmkII is  required.  His words are in bold in this part of that link / article, which I'm copying & highlighting below:

DPR: ... the future of APS-C at the semi-pro level is in doubt, he says:
'That's something we're considering at the moment. From our semi-pro users there's still demand for APS-C but in the future, I think we will see an increase in the number of full-frame models.'
DPR: Either way, that doesn't close the door on an EOS 70D though - when asked when we can expect one, Maeda promises: 'some day in the future. Without fail.

I'm a manager in the Australian Government, and part of my job is to write very specific documentation / policy and to read critically. (I'm not trying to boast, just applying some of my skills here).

So, my take on what Masaya actually says is as follows:
- Canon realises a significant proportion of semi-pros currently demand APS-C
- In the future, Canon believes there will possibly be more demand from semi-pros for FF
- That doesn't mean some or many semi-pros will still want / prefer / need / demand an APS-C
- Which in turn means that Canon needs to determine how to market future models like 70D and 7DmkII
- the feature set and segment positioning of the 70D (& 7DmkII) might be quite determined by the 700D / entry level Canon APS-C DLSRs
- A 7DmkII is still likely on the cards. I think planning, research & development of the 7DmkII has happened some years ago, and R&D are being finalised soon - then ready for production (nowhere does Masaya hint that a 7DmkII is off the cards)
- the 7D has been a popular and long-living successful camera for Canon (ie good profit). I think Canon realise if they create another successful, and perhaps 'noticably improved in some aspects' 7DmkII, they can get a lot of mileage out of it, that is: good profit again.
- Canon is smart and would be very conscious about brand loyalty, and if they remove a 'top of the line APS-C, while the competition offer good top of the line APS-C sized DSLRs, then some folk who don't want to (or can't afford) the jump to FF, may go to other brands.
- equivalent FF lenses are often significantly more expensive than APS-C (when I write 'equivalent' - I mainly mean in terms of 'effective' focal length. (I do realise there are many other aspects to be considered than focal length, but I don't want to write pages here on that!)

Well... feel free to comment on what I've written and determined from the interview!

Totally apart from DPReview's interview - I believe we'll see some high level APS-C cameras.  There are serious Canon EF-S lenses (eg 15-85mm, 17-55mm, 10-22mm, 60mm macro, etc) and many EF lenses (eg 70-300mm L, 100mm macro, etc) that just work so well on APS-C too!

Cheers and regards. Wishing all a wonderful weekend... it's Friday evening here in Australia! YAY!!   8)

Paul

+1!! Very well said! Couldn't agree with you more!

I think there is a lot of mirrorless and full-frame fever going around. Everyone expects the DSLR to simply disappear, and for mirorrless, preferably full-frame mirrorless, to take over by next year. As I've said for some time, and you so concisely put...it is more about market segmentation (1/2.3" vs. APS-C vs. FF), proper positioning products into the correct market segment (APS-C /w 70D & 7D II), and expansion into new market segments (EOS-M). Canon is probably the most wiley, financially wise, and shrewed camera manufacturer in the world. They won't destroy any market segment or camera type that fits into a segment with significant demand. The 7D is still a camera in significant demand. There is obviously a greater and growing call for better and more FF models, and I believe that was Masaya Maeda was talking about...the expansion of FF, rather than the contraction of APS-C.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: jrista on February 04, 2013, 12:13:26 PM
thanks pj for these informations and your hermeneutics on it. So what Canon could do with a 7DII is to equip it with the 6Ds FF sensor and built in 1.6 crop mode, improve the weather sealing and they're done. Anyone?

Doubtful, at least not with the 6D sensor. The entire point of buying a pro-grade crop body is, well...either to have pro-grade features with added reach (when money is no object), or because money is an object and you simply can't afford a full-frame body. Since we now have a $2000 full-frame entry in the lineup, the 6D, that largely eliminates the "can't afford FF" argument, except for those who literally need something like the 1D X.

It should be clarified though, that reach is not the same as crop. Crop is simply a composition and framing thing. Reach requires a higher density sensor. The 6D sensor is FAR too low density to come anywhere close to offering the kind of reach the 7D offers when cropped down to 1.6x. You need more pixels in less area to improve reach, and that is what the 7D line offers...a smaller sensor with more pixels. A 24mp 7D Mark II offers something unique that no other FF camera could offer.

You would need a 63mp FF sensor to offer the same kind of reach with a 1.6x crop mode. You would still need a 47mp FF sensor to offer the same kind of reach as the 7D with a 1.6x crop mode. A 21mp 6D sensor doesn't come even remotely close.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: jrista on February 04, 2013, 12:24:55 PM
flawed logic.. you will always have more reach with a crop and a 1.4 TC. :)

And how many people are actually using a 1.4TC on an APS-C body? Its quite rare imho. I can also say add more n more extension rings if u just care about reach....flawed logic


Only advantage of APS-C is reach and price. But u dont have to save a lot more to get a better FF body than the endlevel APS-C. Yes, i hate APS-C or anything smaller than FF :P Still using it tough  ::)
I just think there are too many Canon DSLR models and levels. They should have entry, advanced and pro. Why there is like super entry (xxxxD), normal entry (xxxD), upper entry (xxD) advanced (7D) upper advance (6D) end Advanced (5D) and pro (1dX)? Its just too many imho. And all APS-C produce the same image quality. mostly the rebels even produce better images then the 7D cuz they get updated more often  ::)
I would NEVER get a 7D if it gives the same IQ as the cheapest DSLR from Canon. Paying so much money just for a better body material is ridicoulus imho. Or wow 10 FPS? Press and pray is not my style... If i wanna be somewhat professional id at least get a 5D.

First off, if you honestly think people who use cameras like the 7D, 5D or 1D lines simply "press and pray", your a fool. Not only are you a fool, your an insulting fool. You can't simply "press and pray" to produce high quality, artistic photography or photojournalism. Especially as AF system increases in complexity (the 7D AF system is quite a bit more complex than the that found in lesser models, and the 5D III/1D X AF system is even more advanced). You have to learn the AF system and understand how to use it effectively, in a variety of situations, in order to utilize it properly to help you produce quality photography. It is most assuredly NOT "press and pray". If that is how you approach photography when you find a higher-end body in your hands, you do not deserve to use a higher-end body. Foolish notion!  >:(

The simple fact of the matter, though, is the 7D gives BETTER IQ than the cheapest Canon APS-C. The notion that sensor is the sole factor in IQ is fundamentally flawed, and why so many on this forum do not understand the true value an APS-C camera like the 7D. There are numerous other features offered with the 7D, not the least of which are its superior AF system and higher frame rate over the xxxD and xxD lines, that lead to better results in more cases. An increase in the number of usable outcomes is a very valuable thing, and more often than not those features are in addition to the image sensor, not solely because of the image sensor.

Let's drop the notion that sensor is the end-all, be-all of image quality. It is not. I'd offer that frame rate and AF system are critical, if not the most critical, factors in IQ for a significant amount of photographic endeavors. Pretty much anything that involves automatically locking focus on non-stationary subjects, or requires actively tracking subjects in motion, can greatly benefit from the additional features the 7D offers over the xxD and xxxD lines. I'd also be willing to bet that the keeper rate for the 7D is far higher than that from either a 60D or 650D, or any other prior version of those lines, thanks to its superior features...despite the fact that the image sensor is the same.

"Press and Pray"...hah. You really don't understand how to use an AF system, bub.

Regarding the use of teleconverters on APS-C. I use them. Hell, I've used teleconverters with both the EF 300mm f/2.8 L II and the EF 500mm f/4 L II on my 7D. I use both the 1.4x and 2x, and if Canon made a 1.7x, I'd use that too. Primes frequently have far more to offer from an IQ standpoint than sensors do. A lot of people complain about how "soft" the 7D is...that is true, sometimes...when using older lenses. Slap on pretty much ANY Mark II lens on a 7D, and that "soft" disappears, replaced by some of the sharpest detail you've ever seen. The Canon 18.1mp APS-C sensor is a good sensor...however it is a very, very high density sensor. If you use inferior glass with it, all the flaws OF THE GLASS are revealed. The only real drawback of the 7D is noise, and then, only at ISO settings above 2500 (and even then, with the increasing availability of advanced noise removal tools, such as Topaz DeNoise 5 (which has stellar random noise removal AND debanding!), high ISO noise is becoming less and less of a problem.)

If you have any experience with bird photography, or a lot of wildlife photography, you'll know that there is NEVER any end to the need for reach. You can always, always, always use more reach. The 5D III doesn't offer better IQ than the 7D in any reach-limited scenario. When you pair those cameras with say the EF 600mm f/4 L IS II and a 1.4x TC, the 7D will always extract more detail. If you are willing to move up to the 1D line (or, if the 5D III ever gets its f/8 patch), you could then slap on a 2x TC, and achieve 1200mm. However you'd still be short what the 7D w/ 600mm + 1.4x TC offers...a whopping 1344mm effective, and at a faster aperture to boot (f/5.6 vs. f/8). (Assuming reach was not your greatest need, the 1D X and 5D III certainly offer other non-sensor features that will help improve IQ...better AF systems, higher frame rate in the case of the 1D X, more features to help you nail the shot, etc.)
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: nolken on February 04, 2013, 12:51:44 PM
I would NEVER get a 7D if it gives the same IQ as the cheapest DSLR from Canon. Paying so much money just for a better body material is ridicoulus imho. Or wow 10 FPS? Press and pray is not my style... If i wanna be somewhat professional id at least get a 5D.

would you still pass on the 7D considering it can be had for $1025 right now, less than $400 more than the T4i?

I would hate to see the semi-professional aps-c body come to an end. as others have mentioned, crops do have their advantages. one thing that hasn't been mentioned is shooting video. yes, you can crop down a photo from a FF to give you the same "reach" as a crop, but you can't crop down video on a FF to get the same reach as a crop. Also, the reach gives you another advantage in video with perspective. the bigger sensor isn't needed so much for video. maybe if you need a really shallow DoF, but even then many times you can just throw on a longer lens and increase the distance between the camera and the subject. also EF lenses have less barrel distortion and allow you to shoot wide open on an aps-c, but you could cancel that argument out by saying you can't get as much light into the sensor with a crop.

maybe there will be a 7d mk ii, and it'll be able to utilize that second sensor to record 4k. that alone would sell me.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: jrista on February 04, 2013, 02:16:01 PM
yes, you can crop down a photo from a FF to give you the same "reach" as a crop, but you can't crop down video on a FF to get the same reach as a crop.

That is an incomplete statement, at best. Reach and crop are different things. You can crop a FF image to give you the same Field of View as an APS-C image. Crop/framing/FoV are a compositional factor. Reach is something entirely different, and intrinsically dependent on pixel density. Reach implies more detail, and you don't get more detail simply by cropping the 6D, 5D, 1D...hell, even cropping the D800 won't give you the same amount of detail as the current 7D is capable of. If you crop the 6D FF sensor to the same FoV as an APS-C sensor, you have plain and simply cropped. You did not gain reach. The 6D pixel density is significantly lower than that of say the 18mp 7D. Reach can only be gained with higher pixel density. The only time your statement is true is when the FF sensor in question has the same or greater density as a comparable APS-C sensor. THEN, and ONLY THEN, could you crop and have the same reach as the APS-C.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: nolken on February 04, 2013, 02:38:19 PM
that is why i quoted "reach". because it is not the same thing. someone else mentioned it on an earlier post, so for simplicity's sake I went with it.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: jrista on February 04, 2013, 02:50:07 PM
that is why i quoted "reach". because it is not the same thing. someone else mentioned it on an earlier post, so for simplicity's sake I went with it.

Muddying down the terms, when they (crop and reach) both have very specific meanings just adds to the confusion, though. Reach and Crop are not interchangeable terms. They are all too often used interchangeably by individuals who do not fully understand the meaning of reach...but they really should be used in the appropriate contexts. Lets alleviate confusion, rather than try to be simple. ;)



As for whether there will be a 7D Mark II, there is this:

*UPDATE* During my current travels, I missed an interview Masaya Maeda gave in Japan about the 7D’s successor. Below is a translated part of the interview that talks about the EOS 7D Mark II. It does reaffirm our thoughts that the 7D Mark II will enter new territory.

DKW: As for the readers of DigiKame Watch, there are many who are waiting for the EOS 7D’s sucessor. Up through the release of last year’s major firmware update, there were many who felt that a new model with even better specs would be released shortly…

MM: Yes, they would be correct. For us, it’s about looking at what the camera has the potential to be and then adding that to what it can currently do. I do think the current model is still very attractive to buyers. And while we are, of course, developing its successor, it’ll be one that incorporates a certain number of innovative technologies. We will not be putting out a product with merely better specs, but one that has evolved into new territory. But then again, we’re not talking about something a long time from now either.

Emphasis added by me. From the horses mouth, Canon IS developing the 7D's successor. The mention that it will use innovative technologies does not, by any means, indicate that the 7D II will be FF. On the contrary, I believe it means that the 7D II could very well be Canon's first camera to use a sensor manufactured with their 180nm Copper interlink sensor tech with lightpipe technology...which is fairly innovative indeed if that is the case. It would be the first APS-C sized sensor to use lightpipe technology, which to date has only been used on much smaller form factor sensors. It would also be Canon's first commercial DSLR product that uses 180nm process, so also innovative for Canon on that front.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: x-vision on February 04, 2013, 03:38:48 PM
A 7Dii has a value proposition problem. 

Well, it depends.

As I said in another tread, the whole point of the 7D series is to offer advanced specs at an affordable price.
Make it too expensive (e.g. $2000+) and the 7DII will have a value proposition problem.

If too expensive, the 7DII will get out of the enthusiasts' price range.
It will also become too expensive for pros looking for an inexpensive (but capable) second body.

That's why I've been saying that the 7DII will be priced at $1800 max.
At this price (and lower), it won't have a value proposition problem - provided that the sensor is very good.
Of course if priced at $1800, the 7DII will not be spec'd as a 1DIV replacement. That's for sure.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: jrista on February 04, 2013, 04:18:17 PM
A 7Dii has a value proposition problem. 

Well, it depends.

As I said in another tread, the whole point of the 7D series is to offer advanced specs at an affordable price.
Make it too expensive (e.g. $2000+) and the 7DII will have a value proposition problem.

If too expensive, the 7DII will get out of the enthusiasts' price range.
It will also become too expensive for pros looking for an inexpensive (but capable) second body.

That's why I've been saying that the 7DII will be priced at $1800 max.
At this price (and lower), it won't have a value proposition problem - provided that the sensor is very good.
Of course if priced at $1800, the 7DII will not be spec'd as a 1DIV replacement. That's for sure.

I think your mostly right. I think an actual $2000 ($1999) introductory price, maybe even a $2100 introductory price, wouldn't be unthinkable, though. I know a number of people who have purchased the 6D as a step up from the Rebel XSi. Granted, the 6D is not the same class of camera as the 7D, however these friends are indeed novice to enthusiast, not pros. Most have limited budgets. The price tag of the 6D was not enough to scare them off, despite its limited feature set.

There is also the real-world inflation in commodity prices to factor in. Base metals, precious metals, rare earth metals, and a whole host of other materials used in the manufacture of advanced CMOS technology and other electronics (hell, even the camera bodies) have all increased in price over the last four years. Some of them considerably, some even hundreds of percent. Even when the amount of commodity material used in, say, an image sensor is very small, a several hundred percent increase in cost can have a measurable impact. Canon could simply reduce their profit margin to maintain an $1799 price tag, but that would likely impact shareholder value as well. I see a compromise around a $1999, maybe $2099 price tag being realistic, and still something the target market for the 7D II could swallow.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: Don Haines on February 04, 2013, 07:26:41 PM
you'll know that there is NEVER any end to the need for reach. You can always, always, always use more reach.

+10 - As someone who finds 4000mm (through telescope) woefully insuffient, I agree with you...
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: Don Haines on February 04, 2013, 07:39:54 PM

The simple fact of the matter, though, is the 7D gives BETTER IQ than the cheapest Canon APS-C. The notion that sensor is the sole factor in IQ is fundamentally flawed, and why so many on this forum do not understand the true value an APS-C camera like the 7D. There are numerous other features offered with the 7D, not the least of which are its superior AF system and higher frame rate over the xxxD and xxD lines, that lead to better results in more cases. An increase in the number of usable outcomes is a very valuable thing, and more often than not those features are in addition to the image sensor, not solely because of the image sensor.

Let's drop the notion that sensor is the end-all, be-all of image quality. It is not. I'd offer that frame rate and AF system are critical, if not the most critical, factors in IQ for a significant amount of photographic endeavors. Pretty much anything that involves automatically locking focus on non-stationary subjects, or requires actively tracking subjects in motion, can greatly benefit from the additional features the 7D offers over the xxD and xxxD lines. I'd also be willing to bet that the keeper rate for the 7D is far higher than that from either a 60D or 650D, or any other prior version of those lines, thanks to its superior features...despite the fact that the image sensor is the same.

Iv'e always regarded the lens as the most important factor in image quality.... It doesn't matter what camera you have, you need the right lens for the job if you are going to do it well. I smile to myself when I hear someone with a 5D3 and Lglass comparing themselves to a rebel with a kit lens and saying it's the sensor that gives them the better picture.... swap lenses and see what happens...

I did a bunch of comparison shots for resolving power about two years ago between a 5D2 and a 7D.... In poor light the 5D2 was always the winner. With good light and a crappy lens, the 5D2 gave better resolving power, but with a good lens, the 7D out-resolved the 5D2.... Different tool... different strengths... different weaknesses.
If one tool did it all, Canon would only have one model.... and it would be identical to the equavelent sony, nikon, panasonic, and Olympus model.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: jrista on February 04, 2013, 08:34:54 PM

The simple fact of the matter, though, is the 7D gives BETTER IQ than the cheapest Canon APS-C. The notion that sensor is the sole factor in IQ is fundamentally flawed, and why so many on this forum do not understand the true value an APS-C camera like the 7D. There are numerous other features offered with the 7D, not the least of which are its superior AF system and higher frame rate over the xxxD and xxD lines, that lead to better results in more cases. An increase in the number of usable outcomes is a very valuable thing, and more often than not those features are in addition to the image sensor, not solely because of the image sensor.

Let's drop the notion that sensor is the end-all, be-all of image quality. It is not. I'd offer that frame rate and AF system are critical, if not the most critical, factors in IQ for a significant amount of photographic endeavors. Pretty much anything that involves automatically locking focus on non-stationary subjects, or requires actively tracking subjects in motion, can greatly benefit from the additional features the 7D offers over the xxD and xxxD lines. I'd also be willing to bet that the keeper rate for the 7D is far higher than that from either a 60D or 650D, or any other prior version of those lines, thanks to its superior features...despite the fact that the image sensor is the same.

Iv'e always regarded the lens as the most important factor in image quality.... It doesn't matter what camera you have, you need the right lens for the job if you are going to do it well. I smile to myself when I hear someone with a 5D3 and Lglass comparing themselves to a rebel with a kit lens and saying it's the sensor that gives them the better picture.... swap lenses and see what happens...

That's it exactly. The sensor on any Rebel from the last 7 years will produce phenomenal photos when paired with good glass. It's just that as pixel density has increased, so has the demand on lenses. Try out the 100-400mm lens on any one of Canon's 18mp APS-C cameras, and they will all look somewhat soft. Pop on the EF 300mm f/2.8 L II, and (assuming good light) you'll see the sharpest, clearest, most vibrant photos you could imagine. The quality of a photo from the 7D wouldn't be any different from the quality of any FF camera at the same subject distance. The 7D or any 18mp Rebel would actually capture more detail than any current FF sensor on the market from any brand.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: Chosenbydestiny on February 04, 2013, 09:27:04 PM

The simple fact of the matter, though, is the 7D gives BETTER IQ than the cheapest Canon APS-C. The notion that sensor is the sole factor in IQ is fundamentally flawed, and why so many on this forum do not understand the true value an APS-C camera like the 7D. There are numerous other features offered with the 7D, not the least of which are its superior AF system and higher frame rate over the xxxD and xxD lines, that lead to better results in more cases. An increase in the number of usable outcomes is a very valuable thing, and more often than not those features are in addition to the image sensor, not solely because of the image sensor.

Let's drop the notion that sensor is the end-all, be-all of image quality. It is not. I'd offer that frame rate and AF system are critical, if not the most critical, factors in IQ for a significant amount of photographic endeavors. Pretty much anything that involves automatically locking focus on non-stationary subjects, or requires actively tracking subjects in motion, can greatly benefit from the additional features the 7D offers over the xxD and xxxD lines. I'd also be willing to bet that the keeper rate for the 7D is far higher than that from either a 60D or 650D, or any other prior version of those lines, thanks to its superior features...despite the fact that the image sensor is the same.

Iv'e always regarded the lens as the most important factor in image quality.... It doesn't matter what camera you have, you need the right lens for the job if you are going to do it well. I smile to myself when I hear someone with a 5D3 and Lglass comparing themselves to a rebel with a kit lens and saying it's the sensor that gives them the better picture.... swap lenses and see what happens...

I did a bunch of comparison shots for resolving power about two years ago between a 5D2 and a 7D.... In poor light the 5D2 was always the winner. With good light and a crappy lens, the 5D2 gave better resolving power, but with a good lens, the 7D out-resolved the 5D2.... Different tool... different strengths... different weaknesses.
If one tool did it all, Canon would only have one model.... and it would be identical to the equavelent sony, nikon, panasonic, and Olympus model.

They can't swap lenses, the rebel's kit lens is EF-S =P Aside from my smart remark, +1. A better lens does make the entire, overall image better, even more so with an L prime.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: Don Haines on February 04, 2013, 09:42:50 PM

They can't swap lenses, the rebel's kit lens is EF-S =P Aside from my smart remark, +1. A better lens does make the entire, overall image better, even more so with an L prime.
As long as you stay away from EF-S, the lenses swap.. All my lenses, except an EF-S 18-200, work on a 7D and a 5D2.. Some EF-S lenses, not made by Canon, do fit on the 5D2, but the vigneting is phenomenally terrible. My friend tried a Sigma 10-22 on the 5D2....like looking through a porthole :)

The problem with APS-C is that due to the high pixel density, you need Lglass quality to take advantage of that pixel density, yet the normal kit lenses offered fall far short of the required quality.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: jrista on February 04, 2013, 10:24:40 PM
flawed logic.. you will always have more reach with a crop and a 1.4 TC. :)

And how many people are actually using a 1.4TC on an APS-C body? Its quite rare imho. I can also say add more n more extension rings if u just care about reach....flawed logic


Only advantage of APS-C is reach and price. But u dont have to save a lot more to get a better FF body than the endlevel APS-C. Yes, i hate APS-C or anything smaller than FF :P Still using it tough  ::)
I just think there are too many Canon DSLR models and levels. They should have entry, advanced and pro. Why there is like super entry (xxxxD), normal entry (xxxD), upper entry (xxD) advanced (7D) upper advance (6D) end Advanced (5D) and pro (1dX)? Its just too many imho. And all APS-C produce the same image quality. mostly the rebels even produce better images then the 7D cuz they get updated more often  ::)
I would NEVER get a 7D if it gives the same IQ as the cheapest DSLR from Canon. Paying so much money just for a better body material is ridicoulus imho. Or wow 10 FPS? Press and pray is not my style... If i wanna be somewhat professional id at least get a 5D.

Regarding the use of teleconverters on APS-C. I use them. Hell, I've used teleconverters with both the EF 300mm f/2.8 L II and the EF 500mm f/4 L II on my 7D. I use both the 1.4x and 2x, and if Canon made a 1.7x, I'd use that too. Primes frequently have far more to offer from an IQ standpoint than sensors do. A lot of people complain about how "soft" the 7D is...that is true, sometimes...when using older lenses. Slap on pretty much ANY Mark II lens on a 7D, and that "soft" disappears, replaced by some of the sharpest detail you've ever seen. The Canon 18.1mp APS-C sensor is a good sensor...however it is a very, very high density sensor. If you use inferior glass with it, all the flaws OF THE GLASS are revealed. The only real drawback of the 7D is noise, and then, only at ISO settings above 2500 (and even then, with the increasing availability of advanced noise removal tools, such as Topaz DeNoise 5 (which has stellar random noise removal AND debanding!), high ISO noise is becoming less and less of a problem.)

To put some images behind my claims. Below are two photos of House Finches. One is the normal red morph, the other an orange morph. Same bird, otherwise, same size (maybe a slight size benefit to the orange morph) with the same amount of base detail...feathers, beak, eye. Both of these were shot at pretty much the same distance (around 7 feet...red morph maybe a few inches farther), ISO, and aperture, although the red one was up in a tree so my focal plane was shifted a bit, thus slightly blurring the top of its head and the back of its right wing. The body feathers and beaks are in focus on both birds. Both birds were positioned within the same rough area of the lens...slightly off center towards the upper left corner. Both full-scene images below are cropped to roughly the same area (few pixels difference in width and height).

Both photos shot with my 7D, ISO 400, f/6.3, in my backyard. The red morph was shot with my EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6 L IS lens with a full stop of additional light at twice the shutter speed (1/1600s, which should be an IQ advantage!) The orange morph was shot with a rented EF 500mm f/4 L IS II. Both lenses had AFMA adjustments for this body.

Here are the full images, scaled down to 900 pixels. Even at this level, you can see the difference in quality between the two photos can be seen. The orange morph is sharper and clearer (probably thanks to better microcontrast.)

(http://i.imgur.com/GqnmGYD.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/9tzhPl4.jpg)

At 100% crop (1:1 zoom, PIXEL PEEPING for all you pixel peepers!), the difference in IQ is beyond clear. The 100-400mm lens produces far softer results (even ignoring the slightly out of focus crest on the red morph). This kind of softness is what I've come to expect from the 100-400mm lens at less than f/8, and beyond f/8 diffraction again softens the image. (There is roughly the same amount of noise in both photos. It is more apparent in the red morph due to the increased lens softness, which blurs detail but does NOT blur noise. Clear, sharp detail tends to Me_Me_Me noise. ;) The background in the red morph also provides a greater area of <= 18% gray tone, where noise becomes most apparent...the orange morph has a greater area of pixels > 18% tone.)

(http://i.imgur.com/0h0Cpuf.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/VC3kIDp.jpg)

Scaled down to web size, the red morph photo is good enough. Most people won't notice the slight softness. From a print standpoint, I probably would not print the red morph photo, however the orange morph photo is definitely printable. It is not only printable, it could also easily be blown up two, maybe three times larger, and still be high quality, even higher quality than the red morph photo printed at original size!

The notion that SENSOR is the only real factor in IQ is, in my opinion, fundamentally flawed. Sensor is A FACTOR in IQ, but not the most important. I would say the lens is the most important IQ factor. The AF system and frame rate are second. The image sensor is third. My reasoning for this is as follows:


The last point is probably the most sensor-dependent point. Noise is a factor of photons per full well, and the number of photon strikes per pixel (thanks to poisson distribution). Assuming a technologically level playing field...i.e. all of the same Q.E. enhancing technology is employed in sensors of all sizes: In a smaller sensor with smaller pixels, FWC is reached with fewer photons than in a larger sensor with larger pixels. Assuming an 18mp sensor in both APS-C and FF formats, FWC in an APS-C sensor might be around 30,000 electrons, while an FF sensor might be around 90,000 electrons. The larger pixels give the FF sensor a greater light gathering capacity in any given unit time, so assuming an identical exposure value, both sensors should saturate to FWC in the same exposure time. The difference is that the FF sensor has three times as many electrons to convert into the same number of digital levels (2^14, or 16384 digital levels, to be exact). Since most noise is photon shot noise (random noise that follows poisson distribution), the more photons per pixel you have to work with the better your noise performance at higher and higher ISO settings (or for pixels below the 18% gray tone threshold). The same would go for sensors of identical size and pixel density but different Q.E. If you had one APS-C sensor with 40% Q.E. and one with 80% Q.E., the latter would gather twice as many photons per pixel, even though the pixels are the same size.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: Dylan777 on February 05, 2013, 12:24:18 AM
I can see fuji and sony will take a BIG bite in smaller body models build with ff and crop sensors - X100(s) and RX-1 are great gear on the market.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: Hillsilly on February 05, 2013, 03:57:36 AM
I can see fuji and sony will take a BIG bite in smaller body models build with ff and crop sensors - X100(s) and RX-1 are great gear on the market.

I agree.  In particular, in the $600 to $1200 price range, there are so many good cameras around that I'm amazed Canon maintains such market dominance.  But they must be getting a little worried.  And this is one of the reasons why Canon will (hopefully) return the 70D to its roots - a more rugged, feature packed, well built, action and wildlife orientated camera for those with around $1200-$1400 to spend.

Great autofocusing capabilities is the only significant advantage Canon holds over many competitors.  I'm pretty sure it will be the foundation of their camera bodies and marketing efforts in coming years.  That way, when people go into a shop to buy their first serious camera, the salesperson will agree that the new Sony or Olympus or Panasonic or Fuji takes great photos.  Just not of anything that moves.  The 70D, however, not only takes great photos, but also has a state of the art AF system.  They'll never miss an important shot again.  Add in weather sealing, WIFI, GPS, dual card slots etc etc and, as long as it comes in different colours, Canon can lock in another three years as market leader. 

Also, it must have hurt Canon's feelings for everyone to say the D7000 was better than the 60D - especially given that it was cheaper.  I doubt they want a repeat of that.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: Marsu42 on February 05, 2013, 04:14:22 AM
Also, it must have hurt Canon's feelings for everyone to say the D7000 was better than the 60D - especially given that it was cheaper.  I doubt they want a repeat of that.

:-) I doubt Canon's feeling can be hurt, only their profits. They knew exactly what they were doing with the 60d - obviously people rather "upgrade" (to the better 7d) than switch to Nikon. And they just did repeat it, with the 6d/5d3/600d combination...
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: Don Haines on February 05, 2013, 08:04:12 AM
The problem with APS-C is that due to the high pixel density, you need Lglass quality to take advantage of that pixel density, yet the normal kit lenses offered fall far short of the required quality.
Compact cameras have far greater pixel density than APS-C.

I think it is fundamentally flawed to claim that "designing good lenses for high pixel density is hard/expensive". Just like it is fundamentally flawed to claim that "designing good lenses for large image circles is hard/expensive". What seems to be the case is that designing good lenses for high pixel density and large image circle simultaneously (i.e. "many megapixels") is hard.

I dont think that a good lense for a (12MP) 5D classic ought to be all _that_ different in price from that for a good (12MP) m4/3 camera (aside from economy of scale, shipping and such things). The FF lense would have to cover a relatively large image circle with moderate MTF, while the m43 lense would have to cover a smaller image circle with higher MTF.

-h

Take a peek at Jrista's excellent post above...

We have reached the point where the resolving power of high megapixel FF cameras and APS-C cameras are approaching the manufacturing limits of lenses. A series 2 prime chunk of Lglass exceeds this limit, most GOOD Lglass primes are around the limit, and just about everything else below.... with kit glass way below. We are using manufacturing tolerences and polishing techniques where it is getting down to the point where they are talking about layers of atoms being removed....it is almost insane how precise they can be made.....but it comes down to what cost...

To make a lens down to the level of a single layer of atoms would involve price tags of $100,000's.... more than the market will bear... They make them to resolution of tens of atoms and charge in the $1000's. Even at that "sloppy" level, expansion of the glass due to fluctuating temperatures and pressure of mounting it is measureable. There really is a reason why lens calibration is to be done at room temperature.. Even if you managed to make that perfect lens at a reasonable price, get to around f* or so and your limit will be the defraction of light... and as densities increase, that f number drops...

The higher pixel densities of cell phone cameras and p/s cameras has largely become meaningless. The resolution of the sensors far exceeds the glass (or plastic) and improvements in image sharpness actually decrease at a pixel level. Very few people in the mass market understand that a 5 megapixel sensor would out-resolve the lens of thier camera and the merrily buy into the more pixel hysteria... It has more... it must be better...
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: fman on February 05, 2013, 09:51:25 AM
And my last input, considering Canon sensors. What I learned from different articles is, that Canon is still using a 0.5um process for their CMOS sensors, while Sony has already upgraded to 0.18um. This is one reason why Canon lacks behind in sensor technology. But this is not a technology Canon has to develop, these are just machines they buy from other companys to produce their sensors. Canon already owns machines that are capable of a 0.18um process, but does not use them for CMOS sensors yet. So I expect Canon will make the switch pretty soon (maybe the high megapixel camera is a hint for that; Canon also said that at the moment 18MP APS-C sensors are ideal for them, which makes sense in this context).

I fear that it's not just the 0.5um process but Canon generally lacks behind sensor technology.
They are missing key inventions like e.g. this from Panasonic:
http://panasonic.co.jp/corp/news/official.data/data.dir/2013/02/en130204-6/en130204-6.html (http://panasonic.co.jp/corp/news/official.data/data.dir/2013/02/en130204-6/en130204-6.html)

Canon is simply forced to push their customers to FF because they cannot compete in the APS-C arena (or in general with DSLR bodies with high pixel density=small pixels).

With equal pixel size Canon cannot compete with sensors using more inventive technology...
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: jrista on February 05, 2013, 12:10:08 PM
The problem with APS-C is that due to the high pixel density, you need Lglass quality to take advantage of that pixel density, yet the normal kit lenses offered fall far short of the required quality.
Compact cameras have far greater pixel density than APS-C.

I think it is fundamentally flawed to claim that "designing good lenses for high pixel density is hard/expensive". Just like it is fundamentally flawed to claim that "designing good lenses for large image circles is hard/expensive". What seems to be the case is that designing good lenses for high pixel density and large image circle simultaneously (i.e. "many megapixels") is hard.

I dont think that a good lense for a (12MP) 5D classic ought to be all _that_ different in price from that for a good (12MP) m4/3 camera (aside from economy of scale, shipping and such things). The FF lense would have to cover a relatively large image circle with moderate MTF, while the m43 lense would have to cover a smaller image circle with higher MTF.

-h

One thing you are missing is how easy it is to optimize glass for a given sensor size. Optimizing lenses for a small sensor is actually fairly easy, as the surface area and volume of the lens elements themselves is fairly small. It is quite easy to get optimal center-to-corner performance with a micro lens for the tiny sensors you might find in a cheap P&S, Phone cam, etc. Optimizing glass for optimal center-to-corner performance for larger sensors becomes more and more difficult the larger the sensor gets. That is why high quality glass for MFD cams is so expensive...it really requires a lot of expertise and precision and high-end technology to achieve.

Yes, pixel density in small form factor sensors is very high, as much as 2x higher than the pixel density of the 7D. However the total sensor area of the 7D can be many times larger than that of a small form factor sensor, thus putting a much greater "load" on the lens, especially at the edges and corners. The sample photos I posted are mid-way between center and corner. I chose those pictures because the performance of pretty much any lens at the very center is usually quite ideal...lens performance trends away from optimal as you head towards the corners. When you get close enough to a bird, for example, and actually fill the frame with your subject, the difference between center and corner performance can be quite meaningful, especially if a non-centered composition is ideal. I don't believe there is any question about the quality of top-end L-series glass on the 7D, relative to low-end L-series glass. The difference in sharpness, clarity, microcontrast, etc. is pretty remarkable.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: jrista on February 05, 2013, 12:27:44 PM
The problem with APS-C is that due to the high pixel density, you need Lglass quality to take advantage of that pixel density, yet the normal kit lenses offered fall far short of the required quality.
Compact cameras have far greater pixel density than APS-C.

I think it is fundamentally flawed to claim that "designing good lenses for high pixel density is hard/expensive". Just like it is fundamentally flawed to claim that "designing good lenses for large image circles is hard/expensive". What seems to be the case is that designing good lenses for high pixel density and large image circle simultaneously (i.e. "many megapixels") is hard.

I dont think that a good lense for a (12MP) 5D classic ought to be all _that_ different in price from that for a good (12MP) m4/3 camera (aside from economy of scale, shipping and such things). The FF lense would have to cover a relatively large image circle with moderate MTF, while the m43 lense would have to cover a smaller image circle with higher MTF.

-h

Take a peek at Jrista's excellent post above...

We have reached the point where the resolving power of high megapixel FF cameras and APS-C cameras are approaching the manufacturing limits of lenses. A series 2 prime chunk of Lglass exceeds this limit, most GOOD Lglass primes are around the limit, and just about everything else below.... with kit glass way below. We are using manufacturing tolerences and polishing techniques where it is getting down to the point where they are talking about layers of atoms being removed....it is almost insane how precise they can be made.....but it comes down to what cost...

Aye, I would say that Mark II L Primes definitely exceed the limit. Based on what I have seen with the Mark II telephoto primes I've rented, Canon is probably set for a march up to 60 or 70 MP FF sensors, if not more. That would in the 2-3 micron pixel size range at the top end, which is getting down to the realm of large-pixel small form factor pixel densities (2 microns or so). I believe that, if the next Canon APS-C is around 24.4mp, then we would be approaching the limit again...that would be the equivalent of a 63-64mp FF sensor. I can't see FF sensors reaching that high of pixel density for the next 5-10 years, though...and if Canon really is pushing for a broader range of FF DSLR cameras with a diminishing APS-C footprint over the years, then I think the new Mark II lens generation is setting Canon up for the next decade of high density, high IQ large form factor image sensors.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: Hobby Shooter on February 06, 2013, 03:25:38 AM
And my last input, considering Canon sensors. What I learned from different articles is, that Canon is still using a 0.5um process for their CMOS sensors, while Sony has already upgraded to 0.18um. This is one reason why Canon lacks behind in sensor technology. But this is not a technology Canon has to develop, these are just machines they buy from other companys to produce their sensors. Canon already owns machines that are capable of a 0.18um process, but does not use them for CMOS sensors yet. So I expect Canon will make the switch pretty soon (maybe the high megapixel camera is a hint for that; Canon also said that at the moment 18MP APS-C sensors are ideal for them, which makes sense in this context).

I fear that it's not just the 0.5um process but Canon generally lacks behind sensor technology.
They are missing key inventions like e.g. this from Panasonic:
http://panasonic.co.jp/corp/news/official.data/data.dir/2013/02/en130204-6/en130204-6.html (http://panasonic.co.jp/corp/news/official.data/data.dir/2013/02/en130204-6/en130204-6.html)

Canon is simply forced to push their customers to FF because they cannot compete in the APS-C arena (or in general with DSLR bodies with high pixel density=small pixels).

With equal pixel size Canon cannot compete with sensors using more inventive technology...
That must be why Panasonic is the largest manufacturer of DSLRs, oh wait they're not.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: neuroanatomist on February 06, 2013, 08:47:58 AM
I fear that it's not just the 0.5um process but Canon generally lacks behind sensor technology.

Canon is simply forced to push their customers to FF because they cannot compete in the APS-C arena (or in general with DSLR bodies with high pixel density=small pixels).

With equal pixel size Canon cannot compete with sensors using more inventive technology...

Defiine 'compete'.  Last time I checked, none of the manufacturers you're discussing sell naked sensors to consumers - they all sell cameras.  Since Canon sells more cameras than any other dSLR maker, I'd say they're winning the competition.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: darkhound on February 06, 2013, 03:26:19 PM
it wouldn't be a problem to produce only full frame for DSLRs but FF cameras are very expensive (entry level starts above $2000), and the 1.6x crop factor is something many people like in ASP-C.

lol.... canon 6D selling for $1630.  nikon d600 selling for $1500
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: K-amps on February 06, 2013, 05:25:28 PM

Defiine 'compete'.  Last time I checked, none of the manufacturers you're discussing sell naked sensors to consumers - they all sell cameras.  Since Canon sells more cameras than any other dSLR maker, I'd say they're winning the competition.

Neuro... I seldom disagree with you... but this seems to me like the guy who jumped off the empire state building and all the way down yelled, see I am ok, I am still winning.... untill... SPLATT!   :P

I for one hope Canon can licence tech that gives them a 1 stop RAW advantage like this Pana patent seems to indicate.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: honsten on February 06, 2013, 05:42:37 PM
With this ongoing wait we seem to be in, I'm starting to get the impression that Canon will release the 7D2 and 70D simultaneously, or near enough, with the same new sensor. 700D will get it at some point in summer.

If they were going to release it as a warmed-over 60D, they would have done it already to coincide with the 650D.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see. If its a big enough let-down, the 6D should be a fair bit cheaper by then anyway.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: aznable on February 06, 2013, 05:50:40 PM

That must be why Panasonic is the largest manufacturer of DSLRs, oh wait they're not.

Panasonic is selling their real estate, like sony, to have some cash to continue their business

anyway a great achievement, but i guess the sensors using this need a lot of reworking
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: jrista on February 06, 2013, 07:21:12 PM
Defiine 'compete'.  Last time I checked, none of the manufacturers you're discussing sell naked sensors to consumers - they all sell cameras.  Since Canon sells more cameras than any other dSLR maker, I'd say they're winning the competition.

Neuro... I seldom disagree with you... but this seems to me like the guy who jumped off the empire state building and all the way down yelled, see I am ok, I am still winning.... untill... SPLATT!   :P

I would offer that it seems that way because you hang out in forums where the majority of members obsess over meaningless minutia that 90% or more of the camera-bearing world really doesn't give the first flying rat's ass (even the ass of the rat that jumped off the empire state building  ??? :o) about.  :P

People primarily care about taking pictures, and it is only a fleeting minority that care so deeply about IQ or DR that they spend a significant percentage of their lives debating the merits of "Sensor A" vs. "Sensor B". Every camera on the market today is so good it puts the majority of cameras from the prior generation to shame. The complaints about things like low ISO banding noise may be valid in microniches, but for the very vast majority of photographers, they never push or pull exposure around by more than a stop, maybe two at most. Most photographers simply reject a photo that is improperly exposed, rather than expending any time and effort, which is usually just a synonym for money, trying to salvage it.

In that respect, Canon does a better job making cameras for photographers, rather than refining technology for obsessive-compulsive minutia-entwined techno-babbling batshit-crazy should-be-out-photographing-something wackos like myself and so many others on this forum.  ;D
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: Hobby Shooter on February 06, 2013, 07:55:12 PM
That must be why Panasonic is the largest manufacturer of DSLRs, oh wait they're not.
Canon seems to be in a comfortable position right now. The generate sales and money. Most may not read (or value) the DXO numbers.

The danger of being in that position is that you may become defensive. Why spend $1 billion on R&D/upgraded manufacturing processes if you can be a dominant player without it?

I think there are some signs that Canon are on the defensive (pre-releasing cameras/lenses by a year, a mirror-less camera that seems like they want to tag along but not lead), but I think it would be wrong to claim that "With equal pixel size Canon cannot compete... "

-h
I do agree with that, very sensible comment. I'm bored with people saying Canon as a company is doomed because of this and that. Being a market leader is not the easiest thing, management could start to lose their sense of urgency - becoming complacent. It wouldn't be the first time in corporate history. Toyota focused too much on being number one and over a couple of years started to take shortcuts in product quality which used to be their top selling argument.

I don't know enough history in this business about who used to be the market leader and why that company lost it etc, but surely it must have happened.

But going back to what many smart people are saying on this forum; the sensor is only one of many important components going into a camera system.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: Hobby Shooter on February 06, 2013, 07:57:47 PM

That must be why Panasonic is the largest manufacturer of DSLRs, oh wait they're not.

Panasonic is selling their real estate, like sony, to have some cash to continue their business

anyway a great achievement, but i guess the sensors using this need a lot of reworking
I actually didn't bother to click on the link, I would probably not have understood what was discussed anyway.  I didn't know Panasonic was in that much trouble, Sony though, it seems like they have been in all sorts of problems the last decade, TVs, phones, cameras and now even their game consoles. Impressive they are able to develop this fine technology under those circumstances.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: wickidwombat on February 06, 2013, 09:54:10 PM
first flying rat's ass (even the ass of the rat that jumped off the empire state building  ??? :o) about.  :P

BUT...

If we had a better AF system and a Longer wider aperture lens and more DR on higher MP sensors we could get better pics of the rat jumping off the building :D
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: jrista on February 06, 2013, 10:03:42 PM
first flying rat's ass (even the ass of the rat that jumped off the empire state building  ??? :o) about.  :P

BUT...

If we had a better AF system and a Longer wider aperture lens and more DR on higher MP sensors we could get better pics of the rat jumping off the building :D

I'd still bet on the 7D Mark II capturing every single rat ass hair, while the D800 with all its stupendous DR would only capture the rat ass itself, even if the rat butt crack had more tonality in those scary deep rat crack shadows than one would care to admit (or explore, with even a single stop shadow pull in post).  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: rpt on February 07, 2013, 03:30:57 AM
first flying rat's ass (even the ass of the rat that jumped off the empire state building  ??? :o) about.  :P

BUT...

If we had a better AF system and a Longer wider aperture lens and more DR on higher MP sensors we could get better pics of the rat jumping off the building :D

I'd still bet on the 7D Mark II capturing every single rat ass hair, while the D800 with all its stupendous DR would only capture the rat ass itself, even if the rat butt crack had more tonality in those scary deep rat crack shadows than one would care to admit (or explore, with even a single stop shadow pull in post).  ;D ;D ;D
No need for that. Jump off with the rat and even your camera phone will get a great shot!
;)
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: CanNotYet on February 07, 2013, 05:17:23 AM
In that respect, Canon does a better job making cameras for photographers, rather than refining technology for obsessive-compulsive minutia-entwined techno-babbling batshit-crazy should-be-out-photographing-something wackos like myself and so many others on this forum.  ;D

Oh, this deserves a HUGE +1. Touché, my friend. :D
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: fman on February 07, 2013, 06:58:05 AM
I fear that it's not just the 0.5um process but Canon generally lacks behind sensor technology.

Canon is simply forced to push their customers to FF because they cannot compete in the APS-C arena (or in general with DSLR bodies with high pixel density=small pixels).

With equal pixel size Canon cannot compete with sensors using more inventive technology...

Defiine 'compete'.  Last time I checked, none of the manufacturers you're discussing sell naked sensors to consumers - they all sell cameras.  Since Canon sells more cameras than any other dSLR maker, I'd say they're winning the competition.

Canon is in a very comfortable position at the moment (I'd say too comfortable) but can they continue like that with a senor tech. that is getting more and more behind competition?
It has started with Sony sensors (found in many DSLRs like Nikon and Pentax) that have better dynamic range in low ISO than any of the Canons (FF included).
Panasonic is claiming now approx 1 full stop light utilization enhancement. Just imagine that technology appearing in m43 bodies (and please don't tell me that e.g. Olympus E-M5 not selling well).

I personally know people who have switched entirely to m43 (mainly but not exclusively from Canon; sure non pro users) and I myself have started to use m43 along with Canon and I have to tell that I'm very pleased with the results.
The Sony sensor that can be found in latest m43 bodies is it least as good as the latest APS-C Canons (despite the 2/3 stop disadvantage from sensor size) so from the pictures alone it would be hard to tell which system is used.
Thus apart form the slightly shallower DoF/more background blurring I don't see what advantage Canon APS-C has (note: FF is different). OK, maybe ergonomics but again for non pro usage that matters less.
 
The whole system is lighter and less bulky though, which is a huge advantage for me.
Most of the m43 primes are also very usable already wide open.
So from IQ perspective it's on par with current Canon APS-Cs. Add 1 stop advantage and it will leave Canon APS-C in the dust.

So to me e.g. the m43 is very competitive and brings me huge bulk saving at the price of 2/3 stop less background blur.
Sure it's not for everyone (e.g. long primes are missing so e.g. it's not for birders) but IMHO it very well covers 99% of the needs.
That's competitive enough for me.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: CarlTN on February 07, 2013, 11:10:35 PM
Jrista, those were some superb bird closeups!  Your points are well made, but you are getting longer winded than I get, and I just don't have the time or desire to read 100 pages of this thread.  I'm glad I scrolled through and saw your pictures.  Do you make much money off those?

For those who seem glad "1.3x is dead", I wonder why?  I mean...it was only used in one model of camera at a time, right?  Was it such a scourge?  I submit that 1.6x is the scourge...it needs to become at least 1.5x.

No, "APS-C" will not die.  It's too practical and handy to die.  If it ever does die, full frame will die soon thereafter.

Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: jrista on February 07, 2013, 11:27:08 PM
Jrista, those were some superb bird closeups!  Your points are well made, but you are getting longer winded than I get, and I just don't have the time or desire to read 100 pages of this thread.

Sorry. I type almost as fast as I think, so writing long posts doesn't take me long enough to consider how long it will take to read.

I'm glad I scrolled through and saw your pictures.  Do you make much money off those?

Not much. I sell something from some online gallery like 500px.com every once in a while, usually just a desktop wallpaper version or a card or something small like that. I don't consider myself skilled enough for my work to really be worthy of selling yet. I've only been doing bird photography since about this time last year. I have a long ways to go before I could consider my work "professional quality". I figure when I can make photos that look like Art Morris' work more than 50% of the time, then I'll consider myself a "good photographer". ;)

For those who seem glad "1.3x is dead", I wonder why?  I mean...it was only used in one model of camera at a time, right?  Was it such a scourge?  I submit that 1.6x is the scourge...it needs to become at least 1.5x.

No, "APS-C" will not die.  It's too practical and handy to die.  If it ever does die, full frame will die soon thereafter.

Couldn't agree more. A built-in crop factor and higher pixel density are just too practical and useful in so many situations. Not to mention cost effective and cheap to buy.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: CarlTN on February 07, 2013, 11:46:36 PM
Yours is getting closer to Morris' level than mine (not saying much I guess, haha), and I've been trying to do birds and everything else for 4 years now.  I don't own any supertelephotos though, but have rented several.  I was looking for some bird shots worthy of putting in this thread, and haven't found any yet.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: CarlTN on February 08, 2013, 12:36:43 AM
This one isn't really worthy at all, but I wanted to show what the much-reviled, outdated, ancient...and DEAD 1.3x camera did with my 135 f/2 last fall.  This is a corner crop at almost 100%, shot wide open at f/2, ISO 3200, 1/6400/sec...the sun was about to set.  I believe I was in servo AF mode with a few points selected.  Yes there's some grainy noise, mostly due to my boost of the saturation, fill light, brightness, and detail slider in ACR.  I used some NR in ACR and PS, but not a lot.  I have quite a few other pics of small birds in flight.  Very difficult to do, and even got frustrating with 10 fps, let alone with only 6 fps on my own 1.6x body.  I'll try to put some others on here unless somebody locks me out of the thread like they did on the "D7000" one.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: CarlTN on February 08, 2013, 01:54:37 AM
1D Mark IV (rented), my 135 f/2, shot wide open at f/2, center cropped to 100%, ISO 4000, shutter 1/1600, 15 minutes after sunset, distance to subject about 150 feet.  This was done 10 steps out my front door, in my yard.  Yes you can see sharpening artifacts and grainy noise...I certainly didn't get "tack sharp" focus on this one (it back focused slightly), but I tried to help it out in post.  Also tried to optimize some NR in ACR and PS.  Third party plugins may have been better.  The 1D Mark IV was starting to lose its ability to autofocus in the waning light, where my 50D actually still works better (at least with its center point-only selected).  I forget if I had center-only selected here, probably did.  Probably also still had it in servo, but would have been better in "one shot" mode, with multi-half presses to re-engage.  Exposure was about correct...I reduced it in ACR, but boosted fill light, brightness, saturation, and fiddled with the curves a bit.  I usually like to set the "blacks" at zero, and go from there...unless it's something in very bright mid day with a lot of haze.  It may be soft and noisy, but you can tell the little fawn is sticking its tongue out the side of its mouth at me a bit!  Just barely still has its spots, must have been born very late spring or early summer.  I know there might be rednecks out there who are just dying to kill this thing in front of its mom, undercook it, and quickly gulp it down...but I prefer to take pictures of the cute little creatures.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: K-amps on February 08, 2013, 07:48:49 AM
I would offer that it seems that way because you hang out in forums where the majority of members obsess over meaningless minutia that 90% or more of the camera-bearing world really doesn't give the first flying rat's ass (even the ass of the rat that jumped off the empire state building  ??? :o) about.  :P


Yes , this Forum....   :P


Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: CarlTN on February 08, 2013, 02:18:58 PM
90% of the camera buying world use cell phones, buy point and shoots, or else beginner slr's, then leave them in full auto mode and only shoot jpegs.  But 90% of the camera buying world...don't get results at the level we get, nor do they care to.
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: Don Haines on February 08, 2013, 04:07:33 PM
I just don't get the title of the thread.... Canon comes out and says that a 7D2 is coming this year and that it will be revolutionary..... someone please explain to me how that gets translated to "Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF"

"MM: Yes, they would be correct. For us, it’s about looking at what the camera has the potential to be and then adding that to what it can currently do. I do think the current model is still very attractive to buyers. And while we are, of course, developing its successor, it’ll be one that incorporates a certain number of innovative technologies. We will not be putting out a product with merely better specs, but one that has evolved into new territory. But then again, we’re not talking about something a long time from now either."

? ? ? ?
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: CarlTN on February 08, 2013, 04:39:38 PM
Don, people like to actively speculate, to the point of being rabid about it.  The reason is because they generally like this camera company, and depend on it for their tools.  So they feel entitled to speculate about what will happen, aggressively.  Sort of like guys betting on the superbowl, or whatever game is important to them.

As for the interview...I mean I wouldn't have even bothered to listen to it, if I was there.  Why?  It's a CEO.  Any high ranking executive, or representative, is a salesman, period.  He wants to speak in a way that props up his company, while mostly saying nothing at all.  He didn't even really succeed at that in this case, in my opinion.

Haven't any of you watched "mad money"?  The parts of the show where he interviews CEO's...it's the same thing.  I usually fast forward over those parts.  There's entirely too much tv to watch these days.  What counts, is what the marketplace THINKS will happen, and thus they buy or sell stocks accordingly.  Pay attention to what people do, not what they say.  Try to ride the wave before it crashes on the beach, or worse, tows you under and back out to sea to drown.

The very worst that will happen, is Canon brings a new crop camera to market, that doesn't come close enough overall to the competition (let alone surpass it).  People will probably still buy more of the Canon product, than they do the competition.  Why?  Who knows?  Could it be like the mentality of the female species?  They're never happier than when they have something to complain about?  (Sorry for showing myself to be a sexist pig, but we all know it's true.  I still love women, I just don't have to like them...haha...and as photographers, too many are difficult to surpass!) 

Or could it be that the overall system, and company...are simply superior?

I try not to be too narrow-minded.  I mean, if someone lent me a Nikon for a while, I would earnestly use it and try to like it.  But based on my brief experience, I certainly won't pay for that privilege (at least not at this time). 

If any of you would like to lend me a D3s and any Nikon telephoto lens (f/4 or faster would be nice), I would be appreciative!
Title: Re: Canon Confirms 70D; Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF
Post by: x-vision on February 08, 2013, 05:46:00 PM
I just don't get the title of the thread.... Canon comes out and says that a 7D2 is coming this year and that it will be revolutionary..... someone please explain to me how that gets translated to "Future of Semi-Pro DSLR is FF"

"MM: Yes, they would be correct. For us, it’s about looking at what the camera has the potential to be and then adding that to what it can currently do. I do think the current model is still very attractive to buyers. And while we are, of course, developing its successor, it’ll be one that incorporates a certain number of innovative technologies. We will not be putting out a product with merely better specs, but one that has evolved into new territory. But then again, we’re not talking about something a long time from now either."

? ? ? ?

There have been two interviews in January with Mr Maeda, Canon's camera boss.

In the fist one he confirmed the 7DII. That's the one that you've quoted.
In the second one, from DPreview (http://www.dpreview.com/articles/0336328811/cp-2013-interview-with-canons-masaya-maeda), Mr Maeda is quoted saying:


I think it's a given that both the 70D and the 7DII will be announced this year.
The future that Mr. Maeda is talking about is at least three-four years from now.