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Gear Talk => EOS Bodies - For Stills => Topic started by: Synomis192 on February 04, 2013, 03:34:09 AM

Title: Finally moving to full frame, maybe. Help/advice/criticism needed
Post by: Synomis192 on February 04, 2013, 03:34:09 AM
Well, this maybe the year that I make a large jump to a Full Frame camera. The main reason why I'm upgrading is because my T1i is probably going to die soon. It's shutter count (according to Magic Lantern) is 60k and from what I can remember, the shutter life of a rebel series DSLR is around 50k.

SO! I've decided to start saving for a new camera but problem is, I don't know what I should save for. Coming to CR is always my first choice for any questions concerning Canon/Photography.

My budget is $1500 and I need help with which outfit I should get. I'll give you guys as much info that you guys need to help me make a decision or give me some options.

-I don't ever plan on ever turning pro
-Video Mode is not important to me at all since I have inherited a Canon XA10 from a friend
-I don't have good FF glass at all.
  *The only lenses that are compatible with full frame bodies are my Tamron 17-35mm, Tamron 28-200, Canon 50mm and a Canon 70-210 f/4 (All from film camera collections)
-I'm mainly looking for good low-light, high iso performance.
-Weight doesn't matter, neither does weather selling.
-I shoot 50% Landscapes, 45% Candid/Group shots, 5% inanimate objects/slow moving stuff.
-I'll be going on vacation during the summer and winter so I don't know if primes should be a option
-I don't plan on purchasing more after this purchase until I finish college and get into a good career. Which is about 6 years from now -.-

So this is what I'm considering.
1. A Canon 5Dc with a Canon 24-105 OR Canon 35mm+Canon 100mm f/2
2. A Used 5DmkII body
3. A Used 6D

I know, I'm probably the worst at asking these questions because I constantly ask. I'm just trying to make sure I don't get a really bad case of buyers remorse (then again, photography always has buyers remorse added. Along side computers haha).
Title: Re: Finally moving to full frame, maybe. Help/advice/criticism needed
Post by: Menace on February 04, 2013, 03:40:04 AM
if you can get a used 6d within you budget then go for it otherwise 5d mark II would be the 2nd option IMHO as always.

cheers
Title: Re: Finally moving to full frame, maybe. Help/advice/criticism needed
Post by: J.R. on February 04, 2013, 03:49:35 AM
I'd recommend you get a used 5D2, the 24-105 AND the 40mm f/2.8 pancake lens.
Title: Re: Finally moving to full frame, maybe. Help/advice/criticism needed
Post by: rs on February 04, 2013, 06:03:30 AM
The 5Dc was released in 2005, whereas your existing T1i is from 2009. While the 5Dc is undoubtedly capable of producing pictures with better quality, you will miss some of the newer tech from the T1i such as the larger high res screen and sensor cleaning etc. Plus if you're worried about shutter life, the 5Dc is rated at 100k actuations - exactly the same as your much newer and only owned by you T1i.

If you could stretch to it, the 5D mk II was released in 2008, and is in every way a step up. And the 6D is obviously going to be very new with hardly any actuations on any body you can get hold of. In an ideal world, get one of those plus something like a 24-105, but your budget doesn't allow for it with today's prices.

So if your motive is just longevity of the body due to shutter life, there's no urgency as you have another 40k to go before reaching the rated limit (which can often be surpassed by a large margin). I'd suggest you wait until used prices of the 5D II / 6D drops more to allow you to afford one of those plus a 24-105. As for when to upgrade, either wait until your T1i finally dies, or if you can't afford downtime, get one when your T1i hits 100k actuations.
Title: Re: Finally moving to full frame, maybe. Help/advice/criticism needed
Post by: M.ST on February 04, 2013, 06:16:43 AM
Forget all about the shutter counts.

Until now I have done over 1.3 million shutter releases with my 350D (prototype) without any repair.

That´s more shutter releases than with my died first 1Ds Mark III and my died first 5D Mark II together.

Go for the 5D Mark II. I don´t believe that you can get now an cheap 6D.
Title: Re: Finally moving to full frame, maybe. Help/advice/criticism needed
Post by: Rienzphotoz on February 04, 2013, 07:21:25 AM
I agree with M.S.T & rs.
Having read your requirements/desire, IMHO, $1500 for a full frame camera and a decent lens is kinda tight and you most likely will only get used body + lens.
When your budget is tight, you might as well wait till you can save up a little more and buy good brand new gear.
$1500 is not a small amount, you wouldn't want to spend on a used DSLR+lens and regret later ... besdies you say that your "T1i is probably going to die soon" due to it's current shutter count ... the same thing could also happen to a used 5D MK II ... of course if you absolutely cannot wait to get a FF DLSR, at this point of time for under $1500 your only option in my opion is a used 5D MK II & a used 24-105 at best.
But if you can wait, your best bet would be to save up $2000 by the year end (when good deals show up) and buy a brand new 6D + lens ... if you are lucky you might even get it for less.
Have you searched any of the stores to see which camera+lens come under $1500 ... I think that would help you narrow your choices.   
Title: Re: Finally moving to full frame, maybe. Help/advice/criticism needed
Post by: steven kessel on February 04, 2013, 08:00:38 AM
I'd go for as much bang for the buck as you possibly can afford.  I've made the mistake in the past of buying budget equipment only to realize later that I'd been penny wise and pound foolish.  A used 6D or 5D Mark ii are both good ideas. 
Title: Re: Finally moving to full frame, maybe. Help/advice/criticism needed
Post by: RLPhoto on February 04, 2013, 09:17:58 AM
I loved my 5Dc a lot. It still better than any crop camera canon makes and your can find them for as low as 450$ in decent shape. If you care more about lenses, I'd get a 5Dc with a set of lenses over just getting a 5D2.

To be honest, the 5D2, performance wise, is no better than the 5Dc. It's IQ is far superior but if you have duff glass, what's the point?

After you get a 5Dc, save up for the mk3. You can use the 5Dc and then sell it for exactly what you paid for it. The MK3 around holidays could be as low as 2499$, which is what I paid.

It's like a temp camera until you get the MK3. If you don't like the AF performance of the 5Dc, you won't like the MK2. If you don't mind it, the MK2 is an option. If your patient, the MK3 won't limit you later on.

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=11758.0 (http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=11758.0)
Title: Re: Finally moving to full frame, maybe. Help/advice/criticism needed
Post by: Synomis192 on February 04, 2013, 11:20:35 AM

To be honest, the 5D2, performance wise, is no better than the 5Dc. It's IQ is far superior but if you have duff glass, what's the point?

After you get a 5Dc, save up for the mk3. You can use the 5Dc and then sell it for exactly what you paid for it. The MK3 around holidays could be as low as 2499$, which is what I paid.

It's like a temp camera until you get the MK3. If you don't like the AF performance of the 5Dc, you won't like the MK2. If you don't mind it, the MK2 is an option. If your patient, the MK3 won't limit you later on.

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=11758.0 (http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=11758.0)

That's probably the most logical thing for me to do at the moment. Clarify something for me though, how would you rate the high ISO performance of the 5Dc. I don't have a lot of fast glass yet and I was wondering if the 5Dc could handle those high ISO of 800+

$1500 is not a small amount, you wouldn't want to spend on a used DSLR+lens and regret later ... besdies you say that your "T1i is probably going to die soon" due to it's current shutter count ... the same thing could also happen to a used 5D MK II ... of course if you absolutely cannot wait to get a FF DLSR, at this point of time for under $1500 your only option in my opion is a used 5D MK II & a used 24-105 at best.
But if you can wait, your best bet would be to save up $2000 by the year end (when good deals show up) and buy a brand new 6D + lens ... if you are lucky you might even get it for less.
Have you searched any of the stores to see which camera+lens come under $1500 ... I think that would help you narrow your choices.   

Used is technically what I'm going for, I mean Canon 5dmkII are discontinued so new ones will become more expensive as time goes on if I'm not mistaken. I don't mind having a used body as long as I know the body has been taken care of I'll be fine with it.

And about that whole shutter count thing, I wasn't being serious haha. I'm just using it as an excuse to upgrade
Title: Re: Finally moving to full frame, maybe. Help/advice/criticism needed
Post by: RLPhoto on February 04, 2013, 11:56:38 AM
In my usage, I felt comfortable in all ISO settings 100-3200 as long as you get your exposure correct. I had no issues shooting at 1600 ISO and looked much better than my 7D.
Title: Re: Finally moving to full frame, maybe. Help/advice/criticism needed
Post by: RS2021 on February 04, 2013, 02:15:03 PM
I doubt you will find a good 6D used at a reasonal price this early after release. 5Dc is a wonderful classic, but unless you owned it already, there is litte reason to go seek it out and buy it now at any price...it is, in all fairness, dated now.

5D2 seems to be the consensus suggestion...get a 50mm f1.4 or even f1.8 II or a shorty-forty and you can start your merry journey on the FF path without sinking more money right away on major lens purchases. All three of these lenses will keep you generating quality pics on 5D2 for a good while.

Lenses are best added in stages to your collection as you get out and about with a new format...ideally not planned on paper and bought in bulk at the begining even if you have the money. Happy shooting!
Title: Re: Finally moving to full frame, maybe. Help/advice/criticism needed
Post by: agierke on February 04, 2013, 04:27:31 PM
for a non pro shooter who is mainly interested in landscapes and group shots, the 5DC is still a fantastic camera. its low light performance is not great...i personally don't like pushing it past 800 iso but will hit 1600 in a pinch.

as far a shutter counts and ratings...even if your shutter does explode its a relatively cheap fix. the shutter on my 5DC blew up at 186,000 actuations and Canon fixed it for me as well as putting a new glass filter in front of the sensor for 200.00. it shot like a brand new camera after that!

so even if you went used 5DC (probably for around $500.00) you could spend $200.00 to put a brand new shutter in it and still have a good chunk of change left over for lenses. or how about a speedlight?

Title: Re: Finally moving to full frame, maybe. Help/advice/criticism needed
Post by: dtaylor on February 04, 2013, 04:53:47 PM
Points to consider...

* The shutter counts provided by Canon are estimates of average lifespans. A 1DX might lose a shutter at 10,000 images, while your T1i still clicks at 250,000. That wouldn't be the average, but it certainly can happen and will happen to someone. Don't assume your camera is about to die based on shutter count.

* The 5Dc is definitely better at high ISO then the T1i.

* The T2i / 60D / 7D out perform the 5Dc in all respects, including high ISO / noise. This is a tested, measured, and proven fact for those who want to argue that "FF must always be better!" (See the reproducible tests at DPReview and Imaging Resource.) The differences are small, but in the crop sensor's favor.

* A used 5Dc will have a shutter count equal to or worse than your T1i.

* The 5D2 / 6D has clearly superior noise, sharpness, and fine detail at ISO 1600 and above over the 18 MP APS-C bodies. Add to that superior fine detail at any ISO over the 5Dc. How important this is depends on what you do. 8x10's at 1600 and 3200? It's a non-issue. ISO 6400, 12800, and/or 16x20 high ISO prints? You will definitely appreciate the 5D2 or 6D.

My recommendation:

* If you absolutely need the high ISO performance (i.e. >3200 and/or lots of 16x20 prints at ISO 1600 and above), your budget only allows for a used 5D2.

* If you are leaning towards the 5Dc because you also want a new lens, you should be looking at Canon's 18 MP APS-C bodies. (What crop glass do you have btw?)

* Unless you get one really cheap, it's hard to recommend a 5Dc that will have just as much wear and tear as your Rebel, and fewer features. It is better at high ISO then your Rebel. At the right price it could be a good move with your budget and a lens. But every time I check the 5Dc's they are overpriced because people think FF is "magic" when it's not. At any price I've seen them, the 60D is a far better option.
Title: Re: Finally moving to full frame, maybe. Help/advice/criticism needed
Post by: RLPhoto on February 04, 2013, 05:27:24 PM
For reference, here is some more info on the 5Dc as an entry level FF camera.

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=9773.60 (http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=9773.60)

As for its High ISO IQ, Its better than any crop camera canon makes. DXO even confirms this and my own usage agrees also.
Title: Re: Finally moving to full frame, maybe. Help/advice/criticism needed
Post by: AprilForever on February 04, 2013, 05:44:34 PM
For reference, here is some more info on the 5Dc as an entry level FF camera.

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=9773.60 (http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=9773.60)

As for its High ISO IQ, Its better than any crop camera canon makes. DXO even confirms this and my own usage agrees also.

I have both it and a 7D. My usage says the 7D is much better at high ISO.
Title: Re: Finally moving to full frame, maybe. Help/advice/criticism needed
Post by: RLPhoto on February 04, 2013, 05:55:07 PM
For reference, here is some more info on the 5Dc as an entry level FF camera.

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=9773.60 (http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=9773.60)

As for its High ISO IQ, Its better than any crop camera canon makes. DXO even confirms this and my own usage agrees also.

I have both it and a 7D. My usage says the 7D is much better at high ISO.

I've had both a 7D and 5Dc. My usage says the 5Dc is much better at high ISO.
Title: Re: Finally moving to full frame, maybe. Help/advice/criticism needed
Post by: dtaylor on February 04, 2013, 06:03:37 PM
As for its High ISO IQ, Its better than any crop camera canon makes. DXO even confirms this and my own usage agrees also.

Imaging Resource and DPReview confirm the opposite and publish the test photos and all test details for review (reproducibility, something DxO lacks). Should someone believe DxO or their lying eyes?

If we're going to talk experience, my experience, the experience of members at my photo club, and the experience of a friend with a rather successful wedding photography business all concur. Nobody who has ever claimed the opposite has ever been able to provide images to prove it. If you can you'll be the first.
Title: Re: Finally moving to full frame, maybe. Help/advice/criticism needed
Post by: dtaylor on February 04, 2013, 06:22:37 PM
Since we're going to argue this...

DPReview Noise Test Results at ISO 3200:

7D Chroma: 3.3
5D Chroma: 4

7D Luminance Black: 2.7
5D Luminance Black: 3.1

7D Luminance Gray: 3
5D Luminance Gray: 3.4

I don't like the IR comparometer for high ISO because those particular studio tests are not as carefully controlled in regard to lighting. The "Dave Box" test is carefully controlled, and the 7D clearly edges out the 5Dc.

These results apply to any of the 18 MP APS-C bodies.

Title: Re: Finally moving to full frame, maybe. Help/advice/criticism needed
Post by: crasher8 on February 04, 2013, 06:40:16 PM
Learning an advanced camera such as the 5D2 will be a great experience. My advice is to hold off on any lens purchases and get a 5D2. See how you like the menus, AF, etc. Learn it's capabilities and strengths vs weaknesses such as iso and AF. After you get a handle on the body with your current glass I say look at Keh.com to sell and trade your lenses for some rock solid Canon glass. I think you might consider :

24-105, best all arounder L lens for FF
100 2.8 Macro (great for both macro and portraits)
40 2.8 Pancake, Dirt cheap inconspicuous wider than normal prime
70-200 variant (they go from $575 -2300) The F/4 IS is the best bang for your money
Kenko 1.4 extender

Also look into Canon refurb lenses.

Enjoy!
Title: Re: Finally moving to full frame, maybe. Help/advice/criticism needed
Post by: wickidwombat on February 04, 2013, 06:54:15 PM
sell all the tamron lenses and the t1
maybe save up a little more to fill the gap
and get the 6D+24-105L Kit

keep your 50mm and the old 70-200 f4
Title: Re: Finally moving to full frame, maybe. Help/advice/criticism needed
Post by: RLPhoto on February 04, 2013, 07:57:25 PM
As for its High ISO IQ, Its better than any crop camera canon makes. DXO even confirms this and my own usage agrees also.

Imaging Resource and DPReview confirm the opposite and publish the test photos and all test details for review (reproducibility, something DxO lacks). Should someone believe DxO or their lying eyes?

If we're going to talk experience, my experience, the experience of members at my photo club, and the experience of a friend with a rather successful wedding photography business all concur. Nobody who has ever claimed the opposite has ever been able to provide images to prove it. If you can you'll be the first.

Did you even look at the samples I posted in the other thread? 5Dc has better ISO performance than 7D in use.

I have no desire to post from DXO, as you can view this info yourself.
Title: Re: Finally moving to full frame, maybe. Help/advice/criticism needed
Post by: Minh Nguyen on February 04, 2013, 08:21:58 PM
I didn't read every response that was written regarding your question, I read maybe about 1/3 of them. So I apologize if someone else has already made the suggestion I'm about to make.

I suggest you get a used 5DmII from FM Forum's Buy/Sell board. And for lenses, you really do want to start out with something good. I would recommend the original (used) 24-70mm f/2.8.

Why the 24-70mm f/2.8 over the 24-105mm? I own both and the 24-70mm gives you amazing photos with that f/2.8 whereas the 24-105 gives you an f/4. You sacrifice on reach but you've still got quite a bit of zoom range and a faster lens. Image quality from both of these lenses are amazing. When the 5DmII was being released a few years back there were tons of people claiming that the glass would not be good enough to create sharp images at 21MP. I have tons of photos from Fashion and Wedding shoots I've done where you can see the pores from the models face. These lenses are that good.

The 24-70mm has been my lens on vacations, studio shoots, landscapes, and events. Its on my camera 90% of the time. Its nearly an all purpose lens.

If you have questions about a specific lens I might be able to help. I've listed my current inventory below:
35mm f/1.4 L
35mm f/2
50mm f/1.4
50mm f/1.8
100mm f/2.8 Macro
17-40mm f/4 L
24-70mm f/2.8 L
24-105mm f/4 L
70-200mm f/2.8 IS
100-400mm f/4 - 5.6 IS L
Title: Re: Finally moving to full frame, maybe. Help/advice/criticism needed
Post by: bdunbar79 on February 04, 2013, 08:42:56 PM
I think the clear winner here is a used 5D Mark II.  The reasons are that you'll probably not need to upgrade for a very long time, IQ, and high ISO abilities.
Title: Re: Finally moving to full frame, maybe. Help/advice/criticism needed
Post by: Aglet on February 04, 2013, 08:46:40 PM
OP, go with your choices.

Get a 5Dc for now, maybe build up a better collection of glass.
Then skip the temptation for a 5d2, it's OK but the 6D has better IQ and possibly better overall AF.

Get a used 6D next year and sell the 5dc for close to what you paid for it.
Best overall dollar value progression and you'll have a really good kit at the end AND along the way.
Title: Re: Finally moving to full frame, maybe. Help/advice/criticism needed
Post by: bdunbar79 on February 04, 2013, 08:50:05 PM
Oops, sorry, didn't see the $1500 budget part  :-[.
Title: Re: Finally moving to full frame, maybe. Help/advice/criticism needed
Post by: Rienzphotoz on February 04, 2013, 10:39:32 PM
$1500 is not a small amount, you wouldn't want to spend on a used DSLR+lens and regret later ... besdies you say that your "T1i is probably going to die soon" due to it's current shutter count ... the same thing could also happen to a used 5D MK II ... of course if you absolutely cannot wait to get a FF DLSR, at this point of time for under $1500 your only option in my opion is a used 5D MK II & a used 24-105 at best.
But if you can wait, your best bet would be to save up $2000 by the year end (when good deals show up) and buy a brand new 6D + lens ... if you are lucky you might even get it for less.
Have you searched any of the stores to see which camera+lens come under $1500 ... I think that would help you narrow your choices.   

Used is technically what I'm going for, I mean Canon 5dmkII are discontinued so new ones will become more expensive as time goes on if I'm not mistaken. I don't mind having a used body as long as I know the body has been taken care of I'll be fine with it.

And about that whole shutter count thing, I wasn't being serious haha. I'm just using it as an excuse to upgrade
Speaking from experiance of buying many lenses, speedlites and accessories that I was not happy with (later on), because I didn't have enough dough & patience to buy the better ones, has actually cost me more money than waiting & saving up to buy some good gear ... I'm a saggitarius (read that as: impulsive buyer), I bought and sold 12 lenses, 5 speedlites & countless unused accessories in the last 6 years ... if I was a little more patient, I would have saved quite a bit of money and got good gear that I did not regret later. Now that you have disclosed your dark secret about the shutter count  ;D IMHO, if you really want to buy full frame, I think you would be better off waiting until you have at least $2000 and buy good camera & lens (I think sometime this year, you should be able to get brand new 6D+24-105 with warranty for $2000) ... you just need to keep an eye on sales/rebates that show up several times a year. 
Title: Re: Finally moving to full frame, maybe. Help/advice/criticism needed
Post by: Synomis192 on February 06, 2013, 04:22:54 AM
OP, go with your choices.

Get a 5Dc for now, maybe build up a better collection of glass.
Then skip the temptation for a 5d2, it's OK but the 6D has better IQ and possibly better overall AF.

Get a used 6D next year and sell the 5dc for close to what you paid for it.
Best overall dollar value progression and you'll have a really good kit at the end AND along the way.

Thanks Aglet, for now I'll take this route unless the price of a USED 5DmkII goes down to at least $1200. Hopefully. I really want to gain a good collection of lenses and I think I've mentioned this before, if I purchase an L for my crop body I feel like I'd waste it.

Oops, sorry, didn't see the $1500 budget part  :-[.

Don't worry it happens :D

Title: Re: Finally moving to full frame, maybe. Help/advice/criticism needed
Post by: cervantes on February 06, 2013, 07:13:47 AM
... if I purchase an L for my crop body I feel like I'd waste it.

Well this is a HUGE misconception. My old 550D/T2i started to shine when I finally got the 100L for it two years ago. Of course now on my 5D3 its an even better lens but still it was awesome on APS-C.

If your budget is limited then you should always invest in lenses not bodies IMO. You say that you do not have appropriate lenses for FF and after going through your list, your right (except for the 50 maybe)!
Your FF Camera won't do much good without great lenses.

On the other hand your T1i would do great with:
70-200 4 L IS
100L
135L
200 2.8 L
all inside your budget.