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Rumors => EOS Bodies => Topic started by: nolken on February 09, 2013, 01:03:43 AM

Title: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: nolken on February 09, 2013, 01:03:43 AM
I understand my needs may be different than yours. I'm curious as to what YOU would do. Not necessarilly what I should do, but what you would do. Background:

I consider myself an advanced amateur. I originally had a 60D, but sold it at the beginning of last semester to focus more on school (and knowing that the body would inevitably experience a price drop soon. Glad I sold it when I did!). I thought I could live without for a year, but I couldn't take it anymore and I bought the 7D a couple of weeks ago for $1030. Now I can get the 60D for $560. That makes the 7D an extra $470, or 84% more. I don't do sports photography or BIF. The closes thing to fast moving is my kids playing, so I don't really need the 7D AF. Before I sold the 60D, I was doing some smaller paid video gigs. I would like to take that to the next level. I would like to do TV commercials for local companies and product advertising videos as well as what I was previously doing. I live in a small(er) town, and the ONLY competition is the local cable company who makes horrendous commercials. One concern of mine, Is it unprofessional to take a 60D to a shoot? Like I said, I only did smaller paid gigs, and nobody really knew anything about my gear. I was still a bit self conscious bringing my 60D, even on the smaller gigs. I did keep all my other video equipment when I sold the body since all the other items don't lose value so fast.

Why I would keep the 7D:

Why I would exchange the 7D for the 60D?
$$$$

So, what would you do personally if you were trying to decide between the 60D and the 7D? And, I suppose, what would you do in my situation?
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: tapanit on February 09, 2013, 03:00:07 AM
There's nothing unprofessional about using a 60D, if it fits the need. Rather the contrary, it'd be unprofessional to use a more expensive tool than is needed. And the resale value of the 7D is likely to go down when 70D and/or 7D mark II are introduced, which seems likely to happen this year.

Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: CarlTN on February 09, 2013, 03:21:58 AM
If you don't do sports photography, you really don't need a 7D.  That said, the 60D is not intended to be used by professionals.  It has no auto focus micro adjustment.  It has a mostly plastic body. 

Unless you mostly shoot in RAW, and print pictures larger than 8x10, the 60D would probably suffice.

Since you seem concerned about losing money to depreciation...and you already bought a 60D, then sold it, then bought a new 7D for a relatively low price, I would just cool it on buying anything else.  You're already seeing a lot more depreciation than if you had just bought the one camera and kept it, or else waited and bought a 70D or a 7D II.

As for what looks good in your hands...frankly you're being silly and shallow a bit.  Nobody is going to be looking that closely at a crop camera body while it is in your hands, or be able to tell the difference...they are similar in size (maybe between a rebel and a 7D, yes...but not a 60D).  People who know, are looking more at what lens you're using anyway. 

If you're mostly doing video, anyone who is familiar with that, would be looking more at your sound rig and tripod, or otherwise your cinema grip.
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: Niterider on February 09, 2013, 04:22:38 AM
I would be happy to explain which route I would go and why, but I would like to know a little more about your gear before I throw out my opinion. What are the lenses you currently own or are planning on obtaining in the near future. Also, you mentioned video so what audio/tripod/lighting/post processing do you have?
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: Don Haines on February 09, 2013, 06:21:01 AM
Sound! A decent microphone, particularly a remote mic, will make you look more professional than whatever dslr you happen to be shooting with  and will vastly improve the sound.
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: BrandonKing96 on February 09, 2013, 06:25:51 AM
If you don't really need the 7D, and you feel as if you want that extra cash, just go for the 60D. 
When I only had the 60D, my main reason I'd like to upgrade to a 7D is because of that nice build.  But I don't really care now because of my 5d 3.
But really it depends on what you find more practical and comfortable.  If you're used to the 7D now, it might be weird holding the plastic 60D (I definitely find it strange holding mine now)
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: trygved on February 09, 2013, 06:41:36 AM
If video is really what you're about, I would strongly suggest you first get a handful of paid gigs, sell your 7D, and pony up for a 5DIII + 24-105 and a couple fast primes.
While the swivel screen and ~$400 make the 60D an enticing option, you will be unable to shoot in low light adequately with either APS-C offering.
If you improve the IQ of your videos, you can entice larger clients with deeper pockets.

If you haven't already, start a killer portfolio showcasing what you can really do with the setup you have.
Your clients will hardly be concerned with your equipment if you can assure them the final product will meet a professional-ish standard.

And yeah, if you don't have sound worked out, you'll need to sort that out, pronto.
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: eyeland on February 09, 2013, 08:19:51 AM
I have been in a very similar situation for a while now, trying to decide between a 7Dc vs another 60D. I am leaning strongly towards the 7D myself. Due to personal matters, I have been very inactive for half a year which coincided with the wait for the much anticipated 6D.
Seeing as you are considering a downgrade I assume that going FF is out of the question atm?


If you don't do sports photography, you really don't need a 7D.

I don't agree with this at all.
There are many advantages on the 7D imo, and the improved AF and burst are plenty useful for me for other things than sports.
IMO, for stills the advantages of the 7D are obvious.
For video, less so:
The clear advantage of the 60D is of course the swivel LCD and the price.
On the 7D the improved HDMI out is nice and I think the C1,C2 and C3 modes can be very useful as well. (on the 60D, video mode is activated on the mode selector dial, and thus, the Custom mode can NOT be used for video - a much overlooked difference IMO)

In terms of "looking like a pro", this of course does come of as shallow, but on the other hand, if a gripped 7D makes you feel more confident, maybe that will help you business wise. As mentioned, no-one is likely to judge you based on whether you shoot 60D or 7D, but your confidence can make a difference.

I guess the choice is easier for me since the price difference here is smaller (750$ vs 1100$) but the only reason I can see to go with the 60D is money being REALLY tight or the importance of Swivel-LCD.

Personally, I hope to follow the route that trygved suggested, namely to gather the funds to go FF as fast as possible + a Tamron 24-70VC and a canon 35/2 IS to begin with :)
Also, consider picking up some old MF primes from ebay. You can get Primes for the m42 mount for next to nothing (paid 40$ for my last 50mm and shipping was half the cost.)
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: RLPhoto on February 09, 2013, 08:51:56 AM
It's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. Keep the 7D.
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: RC on February 09, 2013, 10:50:47 AM
...I'm curious as to what YOU would do. Not necessarilly what I should do, but what you would do....
One of my two bodies is a 7D so I am bias.  I would choose a 7D for:
- AFMA
- Ergonomics / button layout / build
- and of course AF

Those are my quick reasons

Only you will know if the price difference between selling your now used 7D is big enough over a new 60D.  I'm guessing the gain would be $200 or $300 if you are lucky.

I don't do sports photography or BIF. The closes thing to fast moving is my kids playing, so I don't really need the 7D AF.
Today the 7D's AF may not be important but tomorrow you might get a call for a gig where it will be. 

...The 7D will have a better resale value. Again, though, this isn't as important as I can't really see myself selling it in the near future. Upon purchase of my next body, the 7D/60D will become my back-up.[/li]
[li]The AFMA and better AF of the 7D will be invaluable IF I end up actually needing that in the future.....
I wouldn't worry about the resale of either.  Both resales will stink in the long run.  Just know you have a great camera and enjoy it. 

No doubt, AFMA is and will be invaluable especially if you have or add fast glass in the future...I think you might have just answered your own question here.  Good luck
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: nolken on February 09, 2013, 10:53:15 AM
Well money isn't really tight per say, but I'm not loaded either.

I do feel i'm pretty set for the time being as far as glass goes. I actually have exactly what trygved suggested minus the 5D mark iii. A 24-105L and some fast primes. I do not own any EF-S glass because I do anticipate going to FF. Just not now. I want to have gotten a couple of paid gigs before I go for the 5D mark iii. Right now the investment is not a wise one because of the uncertainty. Low-Light performance is relatively a non-issue for me. I pretty much never shoot anything in a non-staged scene, even with photography. And with photography when I do shoot non-staged I don't really mind using a flash or cranking up the ISO a bit. I'm not a wedding photographer.

for lighting I mainly have a pair of Arri 650w fresnels for key lighting and I have several extra cheaper lights for fill lighting. I'm considering a 3rd Arri, but that is not necessary at the moment.

For audio i have countryman wired lavalier mics and an AT897. Since I rarely shoot run and gun, I usually run it into a usb recording interface connected to my Macbook Pro. I believe audio is the biggest place I'm lacking, but what I have sounds nice and if I need a wireless G3 I will rent one. I've never yet found I've needed something else, but of course that will change as I broaden my clientele. I will be picking up some more mics as I need them for a gig.

I do all my PP on my Macbook pro quad core i7 with 16GB of ram. I haven't yet, but I do plan to remove the CD drive and replace it with a with a second HD in a RAID 0 configuration with the other. I use Premiere Pro & After Effects CS5 Premiere pro runs great, After effects runs good but not great due to my 512mb video card that is non-CUDA.

I have a Manfrotto 502HD head with 546b Legs. I do also have a jib that I like to use mounted directly to the legs.

I'm not one to buy on anticipation. If I need a mic or light for a shoot I'm doing I'll either rent or buy based on my predicted need for the future. I'm actually not really concerned with depreciation, as they will both depreciate even more when the 70D/7D come out. I do think the 60D will depreciate more.

I'm confident rather I use a 5D/7D/60D/T4i. Those are just tools. I can hammer a nail with a sledge hammer or with a hammer, it doesn't matter to me.
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: nolken on February 09, 2013, 10:55:13 AM
as far as price difference after selling the 7D, I wouldn't be selling the 7D. I would be returning it. I've only had it a couple of weeks.
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: nolken on February 09, 2013, 11:05:44 AM
No doubt, AFMA is and will be invaluable especially if you have or add fast glass in the future...I think you might have just answered your own question here.  Good luck

the ONLY reason I may consider not worrying about the AFMA is because it is a crop with a wider DoF and The body I choose now will eventually be my backup body to one that will surely have AFMA, most likely the 5Dmiii. If I didn't plan on upgrading to FF eventually I wouldn't even consider the 60D.
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: sagittariansrock on February 09, 2013, 11:22:21 AM
You have stated plenty of reasons to go for the 60D yourself (points 1 through 5 in favor of 7D are in reality reasons in favor of 60D due to the counter-arguments in each, and point 6 is silly :P).
I can think of only one reason to keep the 7D in your case (in my case there are plenty, like ergonomics, fps, AF, ruggedness)- and that is, you already have it- won't have to bother with selling it and getting something else. Time and effort is often worth more money than we can appreciate.
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: PoulStaugaard on February 09, 2013, 03:49:14 PM
Keep the 7D. You wouldn't order a meal in a restaurant and send it back if it turns out to be exactly what you expected, would you?
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: nolken on February 09, 2013, 04:08:33 PM
Keep the 7D. You wouldn't order a meal in a restaurant and send it back if it turns out to be exactly what you expected, would you?

That is different. The restaurant will lose money on that, and the meal that was sent back can't be re-sold. The camera, on the other hand, will get shipped back to Canon and sold as a refurbished camera. The store I purchased it from will not be loosing money. Neither will Canon. I'll still be buying the 60D from them, not the mention the thousands of dollars I spend at the retailer every year. Also the money I saved will more than likely be re-spent at that retailer.

Needless to say I don't think they will care that much.
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: picturesbyme on February 09, 2013, 04:35:23 PM
I had a 7D. Sold it, got a 60D and a better glass 24-70, 200 etc...
Now I shot w/FF but I still have the 60D. It's only a backup and I use it for macro w/the EFS60, and for wide with the Sigma 8-16, both are awesome lenses. It's an awesome little cam and apart from the lack of AF adjustment I see nothing wrong with it for most uses. Actually I never even needed the AFMA, but maybe I was just lucky. (used that a lot on the 7D, barely use it on 5D2)
It would be great if the ISOs would be cleaner above 800 but the 7D won't make a diff. there anyway..
After all it all depends on your style, your subjects, knowledge...etc.

Just one more thing. If you visit my site and go to portraits, or even if you just sit back and see the main slide I doubt that you could tell which photo was taken with what... think about that for a sec..  ;)


Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: Marsu42 on February 09, 2013, 04:44:45 PM
I do feel i'm pretty set for the time being as far as glass goes. I actually have exactly what trygved suggested minus the 5D mark iii. A 24-105L and some fast primes. I do not own any EF-S glass because I do anticipate going to FF. Just not now. I want to have gotten a couple of paid gigs before I go for the 5D mark iii. Right now the investment is not a wise one because of the uncertainty. Low-Light performance is relatively a non-issue for me. I pretty much never shoot anything in a non-staged scene, even with photography. And with photography when I do shoot non-staged I don't really mind using a flash or cranking up the ISO a bit. I'm not a wedding photographer.

+1 for the 60d (though I'm a bit biased as a 60d owner :-)) - as for the differences 7d/60d there are tons of threads about it, but I agree that they won't matter for what you do - except for the swivel screen which is a plus for video and might make you look more pro than cowering next to your camera or standing on your toes.

The one reason for the 7d that hasn't been mentioned is that it makes a better combo with the 5d3 due to the similar button layout, while 60d+6d integrate without re-thinking where the buttons are. Just remember that the 7d uses cf cards, on 5d3 cf is also best because of the broken sd slot, but you will need sd cards for the 60d (again).

Imho concerning camera bodies, just get what you really require, they drop in price too fast - once the 70d/7d2 are out with an improved sensors most people won't want to use the current 18mp generation as a door stopper.
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: PoulStaugaard on February 09, 2013, 04:55:47 PM
Keep the 7D. You wouldn't order a meal in a restaurant and send it back if it turns out to be exactly what you expected, would you?

That is different. The restaurant will lose money on that, and the meal that was sent back can't be re-sold. The camera, on the other hand, will get shipped back to Canon and sold as a refurbished camera. The store I purchased it from will not be loosing money. Neither will Canon. I'll still be buying the 60D from them, not the mention the thousands of dollars I spend at the retailer every year. Also the money I saved will more than likely be re-spent at that retailer.

Needless to say I don't think they will care that much.
Assuming you get all your money back, there is still a cost and someone is gonna have to pay for it. Ultimately, I would argue, it is going to be the other customers.
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: DanielW on February 09, 2013, 05:20:45 PM
I had a 7D. Sold it, got a 60D and a better glass 24-70, 200 etc...
Now I shot w/FF but I still have the 60D. It's only a backup and I use it for macro w/the EFS60, and for wide with the Sigma 8-16, both are awesome lenses. It's an awesome little cam and apart from the lack of AF adjustment I see nothing wrong with it for most uses. Actually I never even needed the AFMA, but maybe I was just lucky. (used that a lot on the 7D, barely use it on 5D2)
It would be great if the ISOs would be cleaner above 800 but the 7D won't make a diff. there anyway..
After all it all depends on your style, your subjects, knowledge...etc.

Just one more thing. If you visit my site and go to portraits, or even if you just sit back and see the main slide I doubt that you could tell which photo was taken with what... think about that for a sec..  ;)

Wow, terrific photos! Congratulations! I myself felt like buying quite a few... :)
(On the other hand, I wish I hadn't seen your work; now I can't blame my 60D anymore...)
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: Chosenbydestiny on February 09, 2013, 07:18:37 PM
It's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it. Keep the 7D.

I'm all for that saying although in this case I see a limit to it. Because if this saying were 100% true we should all own multiple 1Dx bodies for backup on the field and some at home. In this case, the OP wants to venture into video work. There were many issues for me with my 7D for video use in the past that caused me to sell it and buy 3 60Ds eventually. What people hardly factor in to video work is size and weight for support systems. Lighter is ALWAYS better in regards to DSLR video support systems, especially if you're in the exploration stage. You'll save more money than just the transition between 7D and 60D, you'll also save on the accessories in the future. The 60D is still a more perfect video body at this point than the 7D. Why? It's the lightest and most versatile body with natively adjustable kelvin, ISO 1/3 increments, and easier aperture dialing which you can't get from the lightest weight xxxd cameras without magic lantern. Another thing about magic lantern, is that the 60D is the only body that makes full use of every ML feature. The 7D is still in alpha... You'll have to wait quite awhile before the port is finished. The 60D works great NOW. The swivel screen is very useful for video and there's no problem getting another viewfinder like zacuto's zfinder on it for video. Like other says in this thread, audio is very important. The 60D's soundboard is also still the most adaptable and if you're planning to plug a zoom h4n, rode mics, lavaliers, etc into it you'll have no issues. I know this because I shot video with three 60Ds for over a year with many different support and audio systems. The 7D tends to have issues up to now even with the latest firmware, especially with the alpha ML on it as one of my colleagues ended up trashing ML and had to go blind with no audio monitor for the rest of the event. Not cool. I'm not saying that the 7D is incapable of doing good video, but you'll sure as hell have a much easier time on the 60D. It's really the best budget cinema camera out there. Now if you're a photographer all the way, different story, keep the 7D if so. But I'd still rather have two 60Ds than one 7D for video any day.
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: Mt Spokane Photography on February 09, 2013, 07:37:56 PM
I would not buy a 60D because it does not have AFMA.  That means that the body cannot be tuned to my fast prime lenses.  If you are using smaller apertures where the focus errors get lost in the depth of field, a 60D is fine.  But, if you want to move up to fast wide aperture lenses, they always have a little AF error, and sometimmes a lot of error.  I'd take a used or refurb 7D over a 60D any day.  That doesn't mean that the 60D is not a fine camera, it just means that you might be disappointed if you try to use fast lenses with it.
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: picturesbyme on February 09, 2013, 08:20:35 PM
Wow, terrific photos! Congratulations! I myself felt like buying quite a few... :)
(On the other hand, I wish I hadn't seen your work; now I can't blame my 60D anymore...)

Thank you Daniel.
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: Halfrack on February 09, 2013, 11:09:42 PM
3 things:

- if you want to return the 7d, get a used 5d mk2 - lots of them out there, at good prices (~$1300)
- get setup with a follow focus rig, I didn't see it in your list of gear - and there are some slick usb versions that work with the 5d2's but not the 5d3's - save some money
- bypass the RAID 0 on the MBP - get a SSD
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: Radiating on February 09, 2013, 11:28:01 PM
I understand my needs may be different than yours. I'm curious as to what YOU would do. Not necessarilly what I should do, but what you would do. Background:

I consider myself an advanced amateur. I originally had a 60D, but sold it at the beginning of last semester to focus more on school (and knowing that the body would inevitably experience a price drop soon. Glad I sold it when I did!). I thought I could live without for a year, but I couldn't take it anymore and I bought the 7D a couple of weeks ago for $1030. Now I can get the 60D for $560. That makes the 7D an extra $470, or 84% more. I don't do sports photography or BIF. The closes thing to fast moving is my kids playing, so I don't really need the 7D AF. Before I sold the 60D, I was doing some smaller paid video gigs. I would like to take that to the next level. I would like to do TV commercials for local companies and product advertising videos as well as what I was previously doing. I live in a small(er) town, and the ONLY competition is the local cable company who makes horrendous commercials. One concern of mine, Is it unprofessional to take a 60D to a shoot? Like I said, I only did smaller paid gigs, and nobody really knew anything about my gear. I was still a bit self conscious bringing my 60D, even on the smaller gigs. I did keep all my other video equipment when I sold the body since all the other items don't lose value so fast.

Why I would keep the 7D:
  • 1080 HDMI output durring recording. This is pretty important to me, but alone doesn't quite justify the extra $470. Almost though because the screen going black on the 60D upon pressing record is incredibly annoying.
  • Magnesium alloy body. For obvious reasons over the 60D's polycarbonate. This, however, isn't as big of a deal, as the 60D's body is still good.
  • The 7D will have a better resale value. Again, though, this isn't as important as I can't really see myself selling it in the near future. Upon purchase of my next body, the 7D/60D will become my back-up.
  • The AFMA and better AF of the 7D will be invaluable IF I end up actually needing that in the future. IF.
  • It looks good in my hands

Why I would exchange the 7D for the 60D?
$$$$

So, what would you do personally if you were trying to decide between the 60D and the 7D? And, I suppose, what would you do in my situation?

I would get a 5D Mark II in your position. Lightly used they run less than $1200 and will have stellar resale value. Expect the 7D to crash in resale value to less than $700 soon.
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: trygved on February 09, 2013, 11:38:22 PM
So you've your glass and equipment mostly sorted out (and I'm also of the mindset of renting high-end equipment vs. buying entry level equipment)!
In that case, I absolutely say stick with what you have, and use every cent from those first few gigs to sport the 5DIII.
Give the local cable company a run for their $$$
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: DanielW on February 09, 2013, 11:47:07 PM
I would not buy a 60D because it does not have AFMA.  That means that the body cannot be tuned to my fast prime lenses.  If you are using smaller apertures where the focus errors get lost in the depth of field, a 60D is fine.  But, if you want to move up to fast wide aperture lenses, they always have a little AF error, and sometimmes a lot of error.  I'd take a used or refurb 7D over a 60D any day.  That doesn't mean that the 60D is not a fine camera, it just means that you might be disappointed if you try to use fast lenses with it.
AFMA is the only reason I'm upgrading my 60D in the near future. I'm alright with some noisy high-ISO, and would keep the 60D had Canon cared to release firmware to address that.
And if indeed the current 7D sells for $700 or less when the mk2 is out, as Radiating thinks, well, then I'll not only buy it but also keep my 60D as a backup. (Geez, I feel like a pro!)
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: CarlTN on February 11, 2013, 09:37:26 PM
Interesting...I think I might do the same...if the 7D actually falls to near $700 when the mark 2 comes out (especially if the mark 2 is ~$2k or above)...assuming that's not a "refurb" or used price.  A new 7D for $700, yea that would be sweet.  Then I might actually be able to buy both a 7D and a 6D...or else just a 5D3.  At least the choices would be many.  However, the 7D2 may not actually hit the market til Christmas '13, and I want a new camera before then...preferably by October.
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: eyeland on February 11, 2013, 11:40:57 PM
Do you really think it will drop that much in price if the mk2 is priced so aggressively?
Was just about to pull the trigger on it and then it actually went UP in price this week.. sheesh :)
Then a friend started ranting about the chance of overheating the 7D during long video takes and the uncertainty concerning full functional ML release and thus I am back in the cursed state of mind, similar to the OP...
7D (AF-selector, build, HDMI-out, C1,2,3 for video, slightly bigger VF, AFMA, chance of overheating) vs 60D (Price, articulated LCD, ML) Meh :)


Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: expatinasia on February 12, 2013, 12:17:03 AM
If you really wanted to get rid of your 7D and save some cash in the process. Why not get a 50D instead of a 60D. Some say the 50D is the better camera and it has AFMA, but no video unless you use ML.
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: nolken on February 12, 2013, 12:28:56 AM
I seriously doubt that the 7D will drop that low in price.

The 5D mark ii was introduced at $2699. It now has a MSRP of $2199. That is a 18.53% price drop.
The 7D was introduced at $1699. It now has a MSRP of $1399. That is a 17.66% price drop.
That is pretty close. We all know how business like to follow patterns. They probably did their market research and determined these are the appropriate deprecation values.

The 5D mark ii now has a rebate of $400. That gives you a 33.35% Total price drop.
The increase in saving percentage for the 5D mark ii MSRP to the price minus rebate is 180.0%

If the 7D is to follow the same pattern:
A 180.0% increase from 17.66 is 31.79%. That would drop the price minus rebate to $1159. We know the 7D's MSRP will not change again, so that only leaves the rebate to change. My guess is that the rebate will either stay the same or increase to $300 leaving the price minus rebate to $1099. I can't imagine it going lower than that new.
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: nolken on February 12, 2013, 12:30:08 AM
If you really wanted to get rid of your 7D and save some cash in the process. Why not get a 50D instead of a 60D. Some say the 50D is the better camera and it has AFMA, but no video unless you use ML.

the 50D doesn't have video.
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: nolken on February 12, 2013, 12:46:46 AM
Do you really think it will drop that much in price if the mk2 is priced so aggressively?
Was just about to pull the trigger on it and then it actually went UP in price this week.. sheesh :)
Then a friend started ranting about the chance of overheating the 7D during long video takes and the uncertainty concerning full functional ML release and thus I am back in the cursed state of mind, similar to the OP...
7D (AF-selector, build, HDMI-out, C1,2,3 for video, slightly bigger VF, AFMA, chance of overheating) vs 60D (Price, articulated LCD, ML) Meh :)

I have been experimenting with the magic lantern alpha build for 7d, and i must say it is very promising. all of the features that i find most useful are working wonderfully. There is even some talk about the chances of a clean HDMI out. only problem is i have to re-load it every time the viewfinder shuts off. this is purposely done by the magic lantern team because they don't want to modify the boot flag for an alpha version.
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: expatinasia on February 12, 2013, 01:03:12 AM
If you really wanted to get rid of your 7D and save some cash in the process. Why not get a 50D instead of a 60D. Some say the 50D is the better camera and it has AFMA, but no video unless you use ML.

the 50D doesn't have video.

Like I said in my post, the 50D does have video but you have to use ML (magic lantern) to get it. But overall the 50D is a better camera than the 60D, and has some benefits such as the sealing, body and AFMA etc.

Plus, I would imagine they are very cheap right now.
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: nicku on February 12, 2013, 01:09:18 AM
I understand my needs may be different than yours. I'm curious as to what YOU would do. Not necessarilly what I should do, but what you would do. Background:

I consider myself an advanced amateur. I originally had a 60D, but sold it at the beginning of last semester to focus more on school (and knowing that the body would inevitably experience a price drop soon. Glad I sold it when I did!). I thought I could live without for a year, but I couldn't take it anymore and I bought the 7D a couple of weeks ago for $1030. Now I can get the 60D for $560. That makes the 7D an extra $470, or 84% more. I don't do sports photography or BIF. The closes thing to fast moving is my kids playing, so I don't really need the 7D AF. Before I sold the 60D, I was doing some smaller paid video gigs. I would like to take that to the next level. I would like to do TV commercials for local companies and product advertising videos as well as what I was previously doing. I live in a small(er) town, and the ONLY competition is the local cable company who makes horrendous commercials. One concern of mine, Is it unprofessional to take a 60D to a shoot? Like I said, I only did smaller paid gigs, and nobody really knew anything about my gear. I was still a bit self conscious bringing my 60D, even on the smaller gigs. I did keep all my other video equipment when I sold the body since all the other items don't lose value so fast.

Why I would keep the 7D:
  • 1080 HDMI output durring recording. This is pretty important to me, but alone doesn't quite justify the extra $470. Almost though because the screen going black on the 60D upon pressing record is incredibly annoying.
  • Magnesium alloy body. For obvious reasons over the 60D's polycarbonate. This, however, isn't as big of a deal, as the 60D's body is still good.
  • The 7D will have a better resale value. Again, though, this isn't as important as I can't really see myself selling it in the near future. Upon purchase of my next body, the 7D/60D will become my back-up.
  • The AFMA and better AF of the 7D will be invaluable IF I end up actually needing that in the future. IF.
  • It looks good in my hands

Why I would exchange the 7D for the 60D?
$$$$

So, what would you do personally if you were trying to decide between the 60D and the 7D? And, I suppose, what would you do in my situation?

I believe the extra money worth every $$$.
why:

- as you saying no near future replacement... shutter durability (100k clicks)
- way better weather sealing
- AFMA - very, very important. even my L lenses need some degree of adjustment. I manage to get the lenses from  sharp ( when using wide open aperture) to very sharp.
- and the 7D AF is light years ahead of the simple ( almost 10 years old) 9 points AF
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: nolken on February 12, 2013, 01:25:15 AM
If you really wanted to get rid of your 7D and save some cash in the process. Why not get a 50D instead of a 60D. Some say the 50D is the better camera and it has AFMA, but no video unless you use ML.

the 50D doesn't have video.

Like I said in my post, the 50D does have video but you have to use ML (magic lantern) to get it. But overall the 50D is a better camera than the 60D, and has some benefits such as the sealing, body and AFMA etc.

Plus, I would imagine they are very cheap right now.

oh ha i see it now, i skipped the "but no video"" part. I didn't know the 50D was capable of video with ML
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: papa-razzi on February 12, 2013, 02:13:04 AM
I haven't used a 60D, but read a bunch about it when it was released.  7D has a much better AF system, more FPS, a CF card vs SD, and AFMA.  The 60D has the flip screen.  The cameras share the same sensor.

You asked what I would do vs. what I think you should do. If I didn't shoot sports, I personally wouldn't have spent the extra few hundred $$$ on the 7D, but gone with the 60D instead.  The extra FPS and the AF system where the main reason I went with the 7D.

I don't think people care what equipment you have, they care about the results.
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: eyeland on February 12, 2013, 08:48:55 AM
I thought that the 60D was rated for 100k Clicks and the 7D for 150K?
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: nolken on February 12, 2013, 09:43:33 AM
I thought that the 60D was rated for 100k Clicks and the 7D for 150K?

this is true.
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: jhpeterson on February 12, 2013, 11:14:48 AM
I'd keep the 7d.

While the swivel screen and difference in price make the 60d appear more attractive NOW (you know, the "always greener..." sort of thing), you'll likely soon realize the advantages of the 7d (like the screen that doesn't black out when you press record) outweigh the negatives.

Besides, one more thing the 7d has going for it is its better build. You say you're plan to produce advertising videos. One of the most important factors in choosing equipment to do commercial work, is reliability. It is both personally embarrassing and costly in terms of business when an item breaks down, even if it is only for small-town clients (maybe more so, since you may have to live in the same community as them). The near-certainty that a piece of gear will keep working in difficult situations is what labels certain cameras as professional, and, in turn, gives the photographer greater confidence in appearing as a pro.

Coming from someone who doesn't really trust anything below the level of the 1D series, perhaps my advice should be taken with a grain of salt. And, as I shoot on the ocean about 100 days a year, my cameras have been know to acquire a few of them!
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: preppyak on February 12, 2013, 11:34:27 AM
I thought that the 60D was rated for 100k Clicks and the 7D for 150K?
I'm not sure that is really relevant when we are talking mainly video usage. Really, the question would be more to how well each camera handles heat, etc.

I'd keep the 7d.

While the swivel screen and difference in price make the 60d appear more attractive NOW (you know, the "always greener..." sort of thing), you'll likely soon realize the advantages of the 7d (like the screen that doesn't black out when you press record) outweigh the negatives.
Also, you can make a compelling argument that while the 60D is nice for casual video use, if you are getting paid for a gig, you should be using an external monitor to check focus, etc. You client finding out you have a 60D instead of a 7D is nothing compared to the embarrassment of them finding out their interviews are all out of focus.

Likewise, AFMA is a non-issue in differentiating the two, as you'll be pulling manual focus anyway, not relying on the cameras electronics.

If you were doing casual use, Id agree with those that say 60D, because Magic Lantern support and the swivel screen are nice, cheap stand-ins for pro features. But, when you are a pro, you need the right tool for the job. A DSLR may not even be the answer for some gigs.
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: BrianMichael on February 12, 2013, 11:45:33 AM
If you bought the 7d already.. It's a bit late now because now your cam is considered used... It is an upgrade to the 60D so just keep it..

I own a 60D wanna trade? Lol

In all honesty.. I love my 60D.. It is my first DLSR and I am able to get really awesome pictures out of it and even started getting paying gigs... If this keeps up I will upgrade to a full frame camera to keep up with professional needs..
For now.. I will enjoy what I have, not worry about the camera body I own and put my focus on investing in quality glass and equipment that Will be able to be used when I do finally upgrade and then I can just buy the body..
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: nolken on February 12, 2013, 11:45:47 AM
Currently I'm about 95% leaning toward the 7D. I almost exclusively use an external monitor for studio shots, and I don't think the 60D's 480 out is going to cut it. The more I think about it, the more I am in favor of keeping the 7D.
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: preppyak on February 12, 2013, 11:51:29 AM
Currently I'm about 95% leaning toward the 7D. I almost exclusively use an external monitor for studio shots, and I don't think the 60D's 480 out is going to cut it. The more I think about it, the more I am in favor of keeping the 7D.
Yeah, really no reason to swap then. If anything, you should be looking towards the 5d3 or BMCC as a future option
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: nolken on February 12, 2013, 12:42:56 PM
Currently I'm about 95% leaning toward the 7D. I almost exclusively use an external monitor for studio shots, and I don't think the 60D's 480 out is going to cut it. The more I think about it, the more I am in favor of keeping the 7D.
Yeah, really no reason to swap then. If anything, you should be looking towards the 5d3 or BMCC as a future option
Those options are definitely in my future, I just don't know when. That was one of the only reasons I was going to go with the 60D over the 7D. My thought was that since I am planning on getting a FF body in the upcoming future, should I just save the money. Sense I don't know when that will be, I'm just going to stick with the 7D more than likely. The uncompressed HDMI out firmware update coming april to the 5D mark III is something to seriously look forward for video.
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: CarlTN on February 13, 2013, 04:57:51 AM
I cringe at using a DSLR primarily for video.  They aren't intended to shoot video all the time.  The sensors do overheat.  The diodes blow out.  Then when you sell the camera, whoever ends up with it, has a ruined sensor.  I would just use a pro video camera.  To me, buying a DSLR to use for video, is like buying a sports car and pouring ground up french fries and garbage into the gas tank, because somebody on tv did it once.
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: Chosenbydestiny on February 13, 2013, 06:05:35 AM
I cringe at using a DSLR primarily for video.  They aren't intended to shoot video all the time.  The sensors do overheat.  The diodes blow out.  Then when you sell the camera, whoever ends up with it, has a ruined sensor.  I would just use a pro video camera.  To me, buying a DSLR to use for video, is like buying a sports car and pouring ground up french fries and garbage into the gas tank, because somebody on tv did it once.

Where I work, before we upgraded to full frame, we used 3 60Ds to shoot for a nonstop 5 hours on days we worked for a particular client, 8 days a month.... When the clips hit their limit we just hit record again with no overheat issue. Almost half the time we shot outdoors. We live in a country that is hot for most of the year, and humid all the time. We did this for almost two years. Yes, we did swing the screen out and use a battery grip to help avoid overheating the main camera, but the B-roll cameras didn't have a grip and didn't overheat either. The idea of overheating is very much over exaggerated.
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: eyeland on February 13, 2013, 08:04:00 AM
The idea of overheating is very much over exaggerated.
The overheating issue is claimed to be prevalent on the 7D more than the 60D. This is speculated to be caused by the dual digic and/or the fixed screen, but I have no idea to what extend the issue has been exaggerated.
Another thing about magic lantern, is that the 60D is the only body that makes full use of every ML feature. The 7D is still in alpha... You'll have to wait quite awhile before the port is finished.
True, the 7D port is still alpha, but alpha 2 was just released a month ago and from what I understand, all of the important features work now.(ML still has to be manually loaded though).
On top of that, I think that the final release is close seeing as the ML team recently aquired a few much anticipated tools for dealing with the dual-digic (dual-digic is what makes the 7D harder to hack)
I only just saw the alpha 2 yesterday and that (plus the assumption that overheating is a non-issue until you do very intensive shoots) has helped to make my choice of the 7D.


Unlike the OP, I do both Video, Stills, Time-lapse and stop-motion, so for me, in the end, the 7D seems to be a no-brainer.







Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: nolken on February 13, 2013, 10:02:03 AM
The idea of overheating is very much over exaggerated.
The overheating issue is claimed to be prevalent on the 7D more than the 60D. This is speculated to be caused by the dual digic and/or the fixed screen, but I have no idea to what extend the issue has been exaggerated.
Another thing about magic lantern, is that the 60D is the only body that makes full use of every ML feature. The 7D is still in alpha... You'll have to wait quite awhile before the port is finished.
True, the 7D port is still alpha, but alpha 2 was just released a month ago and from what I understand, all of the important features work now.(ML still has to be manually loaded though).
On top of that, I think that the final release is close seeing as the ML team recently aquired a few much anticipated tools for dealing with the dual-digic (dual-digic is what makes the 7D harder to hack)
I only just saw the alpha 2 yesterday and that (plus the assumption that overheating is a non-issue until you do very intensive shoots) has helped to make my choice of the 7D.


Unlike the OP, I do both Video, Stills, Time-lapse and stop-motion, so for me, in the end, the 7D seems to be a no-brainer.

I do actually do stills quite often. actually more often than video. I just don't make money with my stills.

I agree that the magic lantern alpha 2 is working wonderfully. All the important features to me work great.
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: Chosenbydestiny on February 13, 2013, 07:14:18 PM
The idea of overheating is very much over exaggerated.
The overheating issue is claimed to be prevalent on the 7D more than the 60D. This is speculated to be caused by the dual digic and/or the fixed screen, but I have no idea to what extend the issue has been exaggerated.
Another thing about magic lantern, is that the 60D is the only body that makes full use of every ML feature. The 7D is still in alpha... You'll have to wait quite awhile before the port is finished.
True, the 7D port is still alpha, but alpha 2 was just released a month ago and from what I understand, all of the important features work now.(ML still has to be manually loaded though).
On top of that, I think that the final release is close seeing as the ML team recently aquired a few much anticipated tools for dealing with the dual-digic (dual-digic is what makes the 7D harder to hack)
I only just saw the alpha 2 yesterday and that (plus the assumption that overheating is a non-issue until you do very intensive shoots) has helped to make my choice of the 7D.


Unlike the OP, I do both Video, Stills, Time-lapse and stop-motion, so for me, in the end, the 7D seems to be a no-brainer.

CarlTN has stated that DSLRs cannot be used for video because of overheating, hence the exaggeration. I've used a 7D as well as a main camera before and I did get the overheat warning, but that was two times in less than a year of use. If it's your only camera it might be a bit scary even to get the blinking red warning one time, I agree, but I don't agree that it's the reason why you can't do video with it all.
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: pedro on February 14, 2013, 05:17:53 AM
If you don't do sports photography, you really don't need a 7D.  That said, the 60D is not intended to be used by professionals.  It has no auto focus micro adjustment.  It has a mostly plastic body. 

Unless you mostly shoot in RAW, and print pictures larger than 8x10, the 60D would probably suffice.

Since you seem concerned about losing money to depreciation...and you already bought a 60D, then sold it, then bought a new 7D for a relatively low price, I would just cool it on buying anything else.  You're already seeing a lot more depreciation than if you had just bought the one camera and kept it, or else waited and bought a 70D or a 7D II.

As for what looks good in your hands...frankly you're being silly and shallow a bit.  Nobody is going to be looking that closely at a crop camera body while it is in your hands, or be able to tell the difference...they are similar in size (maybe between a rebel and a 7D, yes...but not a 60D).  People who know, are looking more at what lens you're using anyway. 

If you're mostly doing video, anyone who is familiar with that, would be looking more at your sound rig and tripod, or otherwise your cinema grip.

"That said, the 60D is not intended to be used by professionals." I have to hold against that. What is intended to be used by a professional is up to the pro's choice. I've seen a pro of an advertisement agency here in Europe actually use a 60D for video interviews with a band. If that was the case you are aiming at, I as an amateur shouldn't use my 5D3 either ;-) Cams are tools. For whoever will use them...
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: CarlTN on February 14, 2013, 03:34:55 PM
Ok then, since you want to parse and nitpick, let me clarify, the 60D is not intended to be used by stills professionals.  Sorry I left out the word "stills".  But again, it's just not.  I also find it hard to believe it's intended for video professionals.  I would still say it is not.  Doesn't mean they can't use it, or even that it doesn't work well for you...I'm happy to see that it does.  But don't sit there and tell me the 60D is intended for video professionals.  It's intended to be what it is, an overgrown Rebel designed to fill a small gap in a camera lineup three years ago. 

I apologize for looking at this from my still capture perspective, and you all are making interesting points about the lack of a 60D overheating when used for long periods of continuous video.  It appears I do stand corrected on that.  However, my perspective is different from yours.  I wonder how many gigantic red and purple spots due to blown pixels, would show up on that sensor, say if you did longer exposure night photography (as I am known to do) at ISO above the minimum?  Say a 2 or 3 minute exposure at ISO 640?  If you claim there are none, then that would be hard to back up...because you could simply provide an image that was shot by a body that hadn't seen much video usage (or otherwise clone them out) and I would just have to take your word for it.

Sure, I mean, if all you care about is video, or if your work even buys the bodies for you, then by all means, go nuts.  Use and abuse it to the max.  I've rarely seen anyone who doesn't own their equipment, not put themselves before the equipment they use.  I buy my own equipment, and I don't do video at this time...other than non-pro work with a consumer video camera (for which I consider myself more than a decent videographer.  I may have been doing it before some of you were even born, you know, back in 1990).

Just keep in mind, the main reason video professionals use DSLR's (especially the smaller crop bodies) is because it helps their bottom line, and allows for the purchase and usage of many more cameras...not because they generate high quality video.  I'm not judging, just stating fact.
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: eyeland on February 15, 2013, 10:17:31 AM
I wonder how many gigantic red and purple spots due to blown pixels, would show up on that sensor, say if you did longer exposure night photography (as I am known to do) at ISO above the minimum?  Say a 2 or 3 minute exposure at ISO 640?  If you claim there are none, then that would be hard to back up...because you could simply provide an image that was shot by a body that hadn't seen much video usage (or otherwise clone them out) and I would just have to take your word for it.
I never really thought about that, guess it merits some research. Has anyone here found this to be more of a problem on specific bodies?
In the above discussion issue pertaining to overheating of the 60D/7D, I thought it was the CPU heating rather than the sensor, but maybe it is rather the sum of several components?
Also, I recall reading that one of the differences between the 1DX and the 1DC had to do with a different heat-sink, but I naturally assumed that it had to do with the CPU again (the 1D and the 7D both feature dual CPUs)
If this turns out to be an aspect of DSLR video that I have overlooked, it certainly is worth looking into before buying a body for video AND stills use :)
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: CarlTN on February 15, 2013, 08:04:29 PM
Thank you eyeland.  I have no doubt the CPU needs a heatsink, but I think I read that the 1Dc's sensor had a heatsink.  Either way, wherever the most heat originates, it will propagate, and accumulate...as you said.  And you don't want the CPU or the sensor to overheat.

Again, it does make sense to me (as others state above), that the 60D having a smaller processor than the 7D, and also the ability to open the LCD and pull it away from the body, would allow further cooling of the sensor, and keep the LCD's heat away from the sensor as well.  Just based on this alone, if I were doing mostly video, I would certainly consider the 60D over the 7D.  It might also help, in a very hot environment (above 110F maybe), to apply an external aluminum or copper heatsink to the rear of the body (or even something more elaborate), underneath the opened LCD.   
Title: Re: Bought a 7D, considering exchanging for a 60D. What would you do?
Post by: Marsu42 on February 16, 2013, 04:45:33 AM
Thank you eyeland.  I have no doubt the CPU needs a heatsink, but I think I read that the 1Dc's sensor had a heatsink.  Either way, wherever the most heat originates, it will propagate, and accumulate...as you said.  And you don't want the CPU or the sensor to overheat.

I'm not doing video, but anyone interested should search in or ask in the Magic Lantern forum, the people there have lots of experience with video on different eos camera bodies and use firmware with modified bitrate, i.e. potentially generating more even more heat - and I vaguely remember problems with the 7d: http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/ (http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/)