canon rumors FORUM

Gear Talk => EOS-M => Topic started by: Canon Rumors on February 24, 2013, 09:29:53 AM

Title: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: Canon Rumors on February 24, 2013, 09:29:53 AM
Canon’s next mirrorless?
Along with last week’s 7D spec list, we also received what is said to be the next EOS-M camera. A lot of people haven’t jumped on the EOS-M system yet, whether it’s the bad rap the AF gets, or the lack of lenses in the system, sales are quite weak for the little EOS camera. Most people seem to want something a little bit higher end, or at least be able to add accessories to improve the usability of the camera.

Specifcations

Now, all of that sounds like pretty much everyones wish list, so take this CR1 rumor with a grain of salt. I will say that the next EOS M camera is definitely pointing to being higher end from other information we’ve received. An entry level EOS M system camera could be coming in early 2014 and sit in the sub $500 category.

cr

Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: verysimplejason on February 24, 2013, 10:03:41 AM
If they can somehow make the AF decent enough (at least at rebel level of speed), I think EOS M will have a lot of buyers, not only those from the beginner/enthusiast level but also from the professional level (as a very handy backup camera).
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: Dylan777 on February 24, 2013, 10:08:23 AM
My ave Joe's math:
FF sensor in compact body(like RX1) + pancake fast prime lenses(14,16,35,50,85,135, and or 200mm) = BIG SALE
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: SJ on February 24, 2013, 10:22:05 AM
wow !!! good news, its very adorable if come with wide angle lens  8)
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: distant.star on February 24, 2013, 10:45:50 AM
.
It's starting to feel like a rudderless ship to me.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: LukieLauXD on February 24, 2013, 10:45:57 AM
Got my pitchfork ready. Any other 1st Generation EOS M owners want to join me in angrily marching on Canon's Headquarters?

 >:(
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: mrsfotografie on February 24, 2013, 10:56:01 AM
Yawn - I'm seriously considering a Sony Nex-6  8)
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: RGF on February 24, 2013, 10:58:21 AM
I would be happy if the camera had good autofocus and took my eos lens ( with an adapter).   I don't need an APS-C sensor. 
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: Lee Jay on February 24, 2013, 11:06:33 AM
The main thing I'd want if I were going to by an M is a standard zoom that folds entirely inside the body when not in use.  Since I don't see that happening, I can't see this system ever becoming interesting.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: Stone on February 24, 2013, 11:16:31 AM
still yawning and still waiting for a FF MILC, 1st company to do it gets my money.  High performance APS-C DSLR for sports & wildlife + relatively compact FF mirrorless for street and portraits is my idea setup...
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: RLPhoto on February 24, 2013, 11:20:47 AM
Canon tele-compressor for extra speed and to widen out my EF lenses. Like meta bones.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: Don Haines on February 24, 2013, 11:21:30 AM
Got my pitchfork ready. Any other 1st Generation EOS M owners want to join me in angrily marching on Canon's Headquarters?

 >:(
I don't understand... Could you explain? This is not sarcasm or trolling.... I really don't understand and hope you can explain it to me.

Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: Don Haines on February 24, 2013, 11:24:16 AM
I am very interested to see what they have done with autofocus. This could be serious competition to the micro 4/3 market.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: Mt Spokane Photography on February 24, 2013, 11:26:08 AM
The main thing I'd want if I were going to by an M is a standard zoom that folds entirely inside the body when not in use.  Since I don't see that happening, I can't see this system ever becoming interesting.
Not likely to happen, the laws of physics are against it.  People want things that only a small sensor allows, but with a large sensor, lenses get much larger, AF gets slower, you can't have everything.
Canon decided to go the way of high IQ and low light sensitivity.  Those wanting a different mix do have a choice, there are one inch sensor bodies out there that balance the mix differently.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: LukieLauXD on February 24, 2013, 11:58:36 AM
Got my pitchfork ready. Any other 1st Generation EOS M owners want to join me in angrily marching on Canon's Headquarters?

 >:(
I don't understand... Could you explain? This is not sarcasm or trolling.... I really don't understand and hope you can explain it to me.

Got my M back in January because I was hoping that the firmware would be able to fix up the autofocus, but turns out it couldn't. T_T
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: mws on February 24, 2013, 12:00:22 PM
Yawn. If Canon would look to the RX1 for some inspiration, then I might consider it. 
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: traveller on February 24, 2013, 12:23:38 PM
At that price point, I'd expect to have a built-in viewfinder.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: Bob Howland on February 24, 2013, 12:31:59 PM
Why only 5FPS, especially if it has the same sensor as the 7D2, which supposedly will do 10FPS, even with a mirror?

Removable electronic viewfinder? Where will it be mounted, on the flash shoe, so it won't be possible to use an external flash and the external viewfinder simultaneously?

24MP? I'd rather have 18MPS if that buys me better high ISO image quality and much better dynamic range.

Where is Canon's answer to the Metabones Speed Booster? Canon can make one with 1-1/3 stops improvement, given its 1.6X crop factor.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: Dekker on February 24, 2013, 12:32:40 PM
EOSM is late to the market, which means that to make any headway it needs to be a very compelling offering in order to get traction. Given Canon's current weakness in sensors and its decision to put a so-so AF system in the EOSM, I for one am not to excited to 'lock' myself into a system with just a few lenses. There is just no sense in doing that.

Despite having all Canon cameras, I ended up replacing my S90 by a Sony RX100. That camera is so good (size, lens, sensor, AF), that I'm now doubting whether the premise underlying the EOSM is viable at all. Rather than carrying interchangeable lenses, I could see myself carrying two RX100-type cameras with different lenses.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: mdrewpix on February 24, 2013, 12:37:42 PM
Yawn. If Canon would look to the RX1 for some inspiration, then I might consider it.

The RX1 is priced like a 5D III and has a fixed lens. The EOS M is - and will be - an interchangeable lens camera for the masses. The RX1 is nothing more than a marketing exercise. Takes good pictures, true, but for the price of a 6D or a D600 and a Sigma 35 1.4 you'll get equally good pictures for less money. And you'll be able to put other lenses on it.
As well, full-frame sensor is absolutely unnecessary. Besides the fact that you can take gorgeous pictures with a crop-frame or 4/3 sensor, making the EOS M a full-frame camera will add to the bulk of the lenses as well as the camera, negating most of the advantages that mirrorless cameras have in the first place.
The RX 1 has simply taken a fixed lens and welded it onto a box with a sensor. And, like the EOS M, it has no viewfinder. The entire rig will have to be redesigned to allow it to be an interchangeable lens camera. It's already ridiculously expensive. Making it interchangeable will sky-rocket the cost. The RX 1 is a foolish model to emulate.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: Lee Jay on February 24, 2013, 12:40:18 PM
The main thing I'd want if I were going to by an M is a standard zoom that folds entirely inside the body when not in use.  Since I don't see that happening, I can't see this system ever becoming interesting.
Not likely to happen, the laws of physics are against it.

Interesting that they were able to do it with dozens of compact film cameras, that were necessarily full-frame and also carried a film transport mechanism!
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: TAF on February 24, 2013, 12:41:28 PM
24mp APS-C Sensor = no sale here

Canon might want to look around before they come to market.

Perhaps if they offered full frame instead of APS-C and fewer mp in exchange for a much higher ISO, they might have something.

They're not going to compete with Sony et al with this product, but they have the opportunity to compete with Leica etc.  Especially at the proposed price point.  And they can do it.

Repackage the 6D sensor perhaps?

Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: Ricku on February 24, 2013, 12:44:21 PM
FF sensor in compact body(like RX1) + pancake fast prime lenses(14,16,35,50,85,135, and or 200mm) = BIG SALE

Yawn. If Canon would look to the RX1 for some inspiration, then I might consider it.

+1

A full frame mirrorless from Canon (with inrerchangable lens system), is my dream camera.

But Canon will never do it. They are too afraid of stepping on their own toes.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: Lee Jay on February 24, 2013, 12:48:40 PM
24mp APS-C Sensor = no sale here

Canon might want to look around before they come to market.

Perhaps if they offered full frame instead of APS-C and fewer mp in exchange for a much higher ISO, they might have something.

They're not going to compete with Sony et al with this product, but they have the opportunity to compete with Leica etc.  Especially at the proposed price point.  And they can do it.

Repackage the 6D sensor perhaps?

When are people going to give up this belief in the myth that high pixel counts mean high noise?
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: ahsanford on February 24, 2013, 12:51:46 PM
My EOS-M wishlist:


I won't echo everyone's calls for a FF sensor.  EOS-M means the M mount, which means crop.  Strongly recommend you don't hold your breath for an FF change for years from Canon, b/c that's how long it will take for them to build up a collection of EF-M lenses.

And even if they did make the FF mirrorless that many want, presumably taking native EF glass, it will be huuuuge -- as in comically large in size.  One understands (though does not necessarily agree) why Sony went with a fixed lens on the RX1 -- it makes it smaller.

- A
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: mdrewpix on February 24, 2013, 01:07:46 PM
24mp APS-C Sensor = no sale here

Canon might want to look around before they come to market.

Perhaps if they offered full frame instead of APS-C and fewer mp in exchange for a much higher ISO, they might have something.

They're not going to compete with Sony et al with this product, but they have the opportunity to compete with Leica etc.  Especially at the proposed price point.  And they can do it.

Repackage the 6D sensor perhaps?


Might be wise to wait until the 24 mp sensor exists before slagging it.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: LDS on February 24, 2013, 01:09:11 PM
What is the market for this kind of cameras? Frankly here in Europe I don't see a real demand for relatively "entry level" mirrorless cameras with interchangeable lenses. The people Canon aims this kind of camera to are usually happy with some fixed lens one with a decent zoom lens, which spares them the need to rummage inside a bag to get another lens and change it - and get also a bag to store lenses within. The Powershot G series covers that market already pretty well. IMHO the buyer of such cameras are those looking for something smaller/lighter than a DSLR to carry around as often as possible, with almost the same power. But they need a more powerful camera than the actual M is. If Canon delivers something with a good viewfinder - but please, not a "removable" one, such kind of cameras needs to be "simple" and fast to use - and a decent lens lineup I'll get one. I don't care if it is full frame or APS-C or whatever - I'll judge the versatility and image quality.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: c.d.embrey on February 24, 2013, 01:10:30 PM
Quote
An entry level EOS M system camera could be coming in early 2014 and sit in the sub $500 category.

The present EOS M is sub-entry level. What could Canon remove to make the camera more basic ???
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: mdrewpix on February 24, 2013, 01:21:34 PM
What is the market for this kind of cameras? Frankly here in Europe I don't see a real demand for relatively "entry level" mirrorless cameras with interchangeable lenses. The people Canon aims this kind of camera to are usually happy with some fixed lens one with a decent zoom lens, which spares them the need to rummage inside a bag to get another lens and change it - and get also a bag to store lenses within. The Powershot G series covers that market already pretty well. IMHO the buyer of such cameras are those looking for something smaller/lighter than a DSLR to carry around as often as possible, with almost the same power. But they need a more powerful camera than the actual M is. If Canon delivers something with a good viewfinder - but please, not a "removable" one, such kind of cameras needs to be "simple" and fast to use - and a decent lens lineup I'll get one. I don't care if it is full frame or APS-C or whatever - I'll judge the versatility and image quality.

Unlike most people here, I've actually shot with an EOS M, both stills and video. While the autofocus for stills is barely adequate - I never use AF for video anyway - image quality is excellent. The M just needs a few usability tweaks, better AF and an expanded suite of lenses and, for those who actually take pictures rather than look at test charts and spec sheets, it will be a winner. It will never replace my DSLRs but as a light-weight, walk-around rig it has great potential. I'll be ordering the next model as soon as it's announced.

Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: c.d.embrey on February 24, 2013, 01:35:18 PM
Both Canon and Nikon are living in the past -- building cameras for markets that don't exist anymore.

There is NO demand for compact P&S and none for step-up cameras. They have been replaced by smart-phones.

There IS a demand for small/light high-end cameras with a good selection of lenses. So what does Canon deliver ??? An under-featured and over-priced EOS M. Soon to be joined by another under-featured camera priced higher than the Sony NEX-6. WTF is going on ???
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: Lee Jay on February 24, 2013, 01:53:51 PM
There is NO demand for compact P&S and none for step-up cameras. They have been replaced by smart-phones.

As long as smartphone cameras are permanently stuck around 28mm, I and many others that are even slightly interested in photography will continue to use compact cameras instead.  I keep a compact in the same pocket as my Galaxy S3 and never use the camera on the phone.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: noncho on February 24, 2013, 01:54:41 PM
I would consider it if:
They make it with good enough AF(I don't want miracles, just to be on par with other mirrorless)
Good quality small interesting primes - 22/2 is a good start, 12/2.8 and 85/2 would be great...

 I don't need more from that system, small ugly viewfingers are not something that I need.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: Sith Zombie on February 24, 2013, 01:57:04 PM
Quote
An entry level EOS M system camera could be coming in early 2014 and sit in the sub $500 category.

The present EOS M is sub-entry level. What could Canon remove to make the camera more basic ???

Lol  :) cardboard box with a sensor?
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: c.d.embrey on February 24, 2013, 01:59:07 PM
It will never replace my DSLRs but as a light-weight, walk-around rig it has great potential. I'll be ordering the next model as soon as it's announced.


While shooting video the auto-focus of my Sony NEX-5n will keep a person in focus as they walk around a room, no problem :)

The Panasonic GH3 has better video specs than a 5D3 -- 60p (NTSC) / 50p (PAL) progressive recording
72Mbps (ALL-Intra) in MOV format ,for only $300.00 more that the rumored price of an EOS M2. Canon needs to wake up and see what the competition is delivering.

Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: c.d.embrey on February 24, 2013, 02:12:56 PM

As long as smartphone cameras are permanently stuck around 28mm, I and many others that are even slightly interested in photography will continue to use compact cameras instead.  I keep a compact in the same pocket as my Galaxy S3 and never use the camera on the phone.

People are lining up to pay big-bux for the Sony RX1 with a permanently attached 28mm f/2.0 lens ;)

My walk-around camera is a .7Mpx iPod Touch 4G :)

Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: Lee Jay on February 24, 2013, 02:33:36 PM

As long as smartphone cameras are permanently stuck around 28mm, I and many others that are even slightly interested in photography will continue to use compact cameras instead.  I keep a compact in the same pocket as my Galaxy S3 and never use the camera on the phone.

People are lining up to pay big-bux for the Sony RX1 with a permanently attached 28mm f/2.0 lens ;)

Which is only slightly less useless than a cell phone.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: Don Haines on February 24, 2013, 02:55:27 PM
Got my pitchfork ready. Any other 1st Generation EOS M owners want to join me in angrily marching on Canon's Headquarters?

 >:(
I don't understand... Could you explain? This is not sarcasm or trolling.... I really don't understand and hope you can explain it to me.

Got my M back in January because I was hoping that the firmware would be able to fix up the autofocus, but turns out it couldn't. T_T
I understand now. If I were in your shoes I'd be mad too. I like the idea of mirrorless but stay away because of the focus problems.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: mdrewpix on February 24, 2013, 03:41:27 PM
It will never replace my DSLRs but as a light-weight, walk-around rig it has great potential. I'll be ordering the next model as soon as it's announced.


While shooting video the auto-focus of my Sony NEX-5n will keep a person in focus as they walk around a room, no problem :)

The Panasonic GH3 has better video specs than a 5D3 -- 60p (NTSC) / 50p (PAL) progressive recording
72Mbps (ALL-Intra) in MOV format ,for only $300.00 more that the rumored price of an EOS M2. Canon needs to wake up and see what the competition is delivering.

You missed my point a bit. I don't want autofocus for video. For the kinds of things I do, autofocus can often be more of a hindrance than a help. I'm glad your Sony can AF for you and if the M will AF with the kit lens in video mode, well, that's good. But I'll keep it shut off. Just works better for me that way.
And as far as the GH3 vs 5D III - unless you've shot with both of them and can back up your statement, your opinion is irrelevant. I'm a photographer for a daily newspaper and I own a 5D III. I shoot stills and video with it on a daily basis. If the GH3 truly is better, it must be a miraculous machine.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: c.d.embrey on February 24, 2013, 04:22:55 PM

... your opinion is irrelevant. I'm a photographer for a daily newspaper and I own a 5D III.

I have shot with a 5D3. As well as Sony Broadcast cameras, starting with the Betacam SP way-back in the 1980s.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: pwp on February 24, 2013, 04:27:32 PM
As long as smartphone cameras are permanently stuck around 28mm, I and many others that are even slightly interested in photography will continue to use compact cameras instead.  I keep a compact in the same pocket as my Galaxy S3 and never use the camera on the phone.
People are lining up to pay big-bux for the Sony RX1 with a permanently attached 28mm f/2.0 lens ;)
Which is only slightly less useless than a cell phone.
What we REALLY need is the next Canon M to be a camera that makes phone calls... 8)

-PW
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: dadgummit on February 24, 2013, 04:28:07 PM
Thank Goodness!  I was worried Canon was going to regurgitate the same noisy 18 mp sensor they have been using for years.  Here is to hoping it has good low ISO noise!!
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: CanNotYet on February 24, 2013, 04:59:59 PM
Quote
An entry level EOS M system camera could be coming in early 2014 and sit in the sub $500 category.

The present EOS M is sub-entry level. What could Canon remove to make the camera more basic ???

Lol  :) cardboard box with a sensor?

No, but as I have suggested in another thread, a mirrorless EOS Rebel T4/1200D with EOS-M mount and EVF would do it. Easy money for Canon.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: MacDarcy on February 24, 2013, 05:02:26 PM
<yawn> Wake me when the EOS-M gets FF. THEN I'll get excited.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: mdrewpix on February 24, 2013, 05:06:05 PM

... your opinion is irrelevant. I'm a photographer for a daily newspaper and I own a 5D III.

I have shot with a 5D3. As well as Sony Broadcast cameras, starting with the Betacam SP way-back in the 1980s.

My apologies. I made a foolish assumption. But I stand by my statements.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: Don Haines on February 24, 2013, 05:10:13 PM
Quote
An entry level EOS M system camera could be coming in early 2014 and sit in the sub $500 category.

The present EOS M is sub-entry level. What could Canon remove to make the camera more basic ???

How about getting rid of the display and memory card and selling it as a wireless accessory to a smartphone or tablet :)
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: AvTvM on February 24, 2013, 05:19:18 PM
still yawning and still waiting for a FF MILC, 1st company to do it gets my money.  High performance APS-C DSLR for sports & wildlife + relatively compact FF mirrorless for street and portraits is my idea setup...

+1   me too!
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: AvTvM on February 24, 2013, 05:20:33 PM
My ave Joe's math:
FF sensor in compact body(like RX1) + pancake fast prime lenses(14,16,35,50,85,135, and or 200mm) = BIG SALE

+1

Plus - Contrast or Hybrid - AF as fast as in a current Panasonic!
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: MacDarcy on February 24, 2013, 06:36:15 PM
FF sensor in compact body(like RX1) + pancake fast prime lenses(14,16,35,50,85,135, and or 200mm) = BIG SALE

Yawn. If Canon would look to the RX1 for some inspiration, then I might consider it.

+1

A full frame mirrorless from Canon (with inrerchangable lens system), is my dream camera.

But Canon will never do it. They are too afraid of stepping on their own toes.

They better not be afraid, cause if they wait, Nikon & Sony will be more then happy to stomp on their feet for them.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: verysimplejason on February 24, 2013, 07:08:13 PM
Got my pitchfork ready. Any other 1st Generation EOS M owners want to join me in angrily marching on Canon's Headquarters?

 >:(

That's what you get when you're too excited on something.  Let it brew a little and it'll taste better. :)
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: verysimplejason on February 24, 2013, 07:09:59 PM
Yawn. If Canon would look to the RX1 for some inspiration, then I might consider it.

That, but the price.  RX1 is too expensive.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: Area256 on February 24, 2013, 07:12:55 PM
My ave Joe's math:
FF sensor in compact body(like RX1) + pancake fast prime lenses(14,16,35,50,85,135, and or 200mm) = BIG SALE

+1. 

Only I'm guessing the math gets harder than we think, since it involves creating on chip AF systems that can work with FF DOF, and complete line of lens that gets complicated with size vs. performance vs. cost trade-offs.  And finally how big is the market that would pay for it?  Sure I'd pay for it, and likely many people on this forum would pay for it, but we aren't the average causal photography population.  So would it pay off?

Still I hope someone gets around to it.  At this point I think Sony is the most likely candidate.  Fujifilm could do it, but they seem to be focused on expanding their crop sensor lenses for now.   Canon and Nikon have the resources to do it, but it's questionable if they will being fairly conservative companies.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: EchoLocation on February 24, 2013, 08:03:28 PM
I don't see what is differentiating these specs from anything that is on the market already, namely sony.
At best, these specs will end up being a NEX type camera that has a Canon Mount. That is great for diehard Canon users, but i'm not excited enough about it to consider that over anything already on the market.
If I were to be interested in APS-C mirrorless camera, it would have to have super quick AF(like the Nikon 1,) a built in flash, hopefully a built in viewfinder, and have an F2.8 Kit lens all for around 1000 bucks at most.
That's probably a dream, but for my uses, APS-C is basically dead. If the above camera was made, I may consider it as a second camera to a future FF mirrorless or an RX1.
Now, if Canon would step up and make a FF mirrorless(like the RX1 with a 24-70(or 24-55mm) zoom, or a mirrorless FF with interchangeable lenses, and kept the cost around $2k or 3K with a decent kit lens or fast prime, well, i'd probably pre order!
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: TheBadger on February 24, 2013, 08:15:57 PM
Anyone else wish the new EOS M was the one the right?  ;)
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: wickidwombat on February 24, 2013, 08:45:25 PM
Anyone else wish the new EOS M was the one the right?  ;)

yep

also it would be nice if canon offered us 4 or 5 beta testers that bought the first EOS-M a discounted trade in price for the new one.... :D
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: Dylan777 on February 24, 2013, 09:12:39 PM
Yawn. If Canon would look to the RX1 for some inspiration, then I might consider it.

That, but the price.  RX1 is too expensive.

I don't blame Sony for pricing RX1 at $2800, since it's the ONLY FF sensor camera built in P&S body for less than $3000. Not to mention, it comes with Carl Zeiss f2 lens. No other companies have "BLL" to bring this kind of product to the market.

Mark my words: If Fuji or Sony comes out FF camera in compact body like the RX1 or Fuji x100, faster AF and with exchangable lenses, I will DUMP all my Canon gear. I don't understand the point of waiting for Canon FF compact camera.

Here are some pics from my RX1:

Inside Chuck E. Cheese.
http://albums.phanfare.com/isolated/fPRlYszx/1/5948895 (http://albums.phanfare.com/isolated/fPRlYszx/1/5948895)

Inside my house with all lights off, except 7watts batteries Op. sleep lamp.
http://albums.phanfare.com/isolated/AciN2mE8/1/5955241 (http://albums.phanfare.com/isolated/AciN2mE8/1/5955241)
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: tiger82 on February 24, 2013, 09:14:19 PM
In order to make a truly compact mirrorless full frame camera that complies with the laws of physics, some of the optical path will have to spill out of the camera and maybe absorbed by the lenses.  Lenses will either be longer and bigger bur definitely much more expensive.  Light has to travel in such a way so the light entering the lens has to hit the sensor perpendicular across the entire surface and the optical path required to do that dictates the size of the camera/lens system.  Don't hold your breath for a compact full frame camera with interchangeable lenses.  Just not possible.  The EOS-M will never be close to full frame without getting larger.  That's why there is a new mount for it, the EF mount is not compatible with the required optical path without an adapter.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: ksinton on February 24, 2013, 11:52:45 PM
Yeah Canon entered the market pretty late with the m series and then did not offer anything very special.

for example compared to the Olympus OM-5 the Canon:

1.) Has much slower auto focus
2.) Has no image stabilization 
3.) Has way fewer lenses

If Canon wants to make a dent in the mirrorless market they need to find a way to stand out.  For example they could:

1.) Make a full frame mirrorless camera.  Leica would be their only completion and they are way over priced.
2.) Make a super low light capable camera with world class image stabilization and a lower res super low light sensor. 
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: AvTvM on February 25, 2013, 03:43:49 AM
I don't blame Sony for pricing RX1 at $2800, since it's the ONLY FF sensor camera built in P&S body for less than $3000. Not to mention, it comes with Carl Zeiss f2 lens. No other companies have "BLL" to bring this kind of product to the market.
Mark my words: If Fuji or Sony comes out FF camera in compact body like the RX1 or Fuji x100, faster AF and with exchangable lenses, I will DUMP all my Canon gear. I don't understand the point of waiting for Canon FF compact camera.

Sony RX-1 is also a problem rather than a solution as far as my demands are concerned.
1. I will NEVeR  buy a digital camera with a glued-on, ultra boring 35mm prime lens. No way. Its got to have a lens mount. And its got to have a fully-functional (IS, AF, flash-metering, distance information, etc.) adapter for Canon EF.
2. I will NEVER again buy a camera with dead slow AF. RX-1 ist way too slow. My acceptable minimum AF-speed is Nikon1, but preferably like a Panasonic GH-3.

I really do not understand why Sony did not produce an RX-2 alongside the RX-1 ... with a lens mount. They do not even have to worry about "Cannibalizing" their DSLRs (or rather their sub-par SLTs) ... since those are not sold in worthwile numbers anyway. Sony could have gone ALL OUT and create the first real FF compact camera that beats a Leica M9 by a hige margin ... at a third of the price.  There is a HUGE amrket for such a camera + a range of ultra-compact, but decent pancake lenses and a high-end, ultra-compact / foldable 24-70/f 4.0 kit lens.

I hope Canon will continue to be punished by the market (=us!) and hits the wall soon with its lacklustre APS-C EOS-M system. I will NEVER buy another APS-C camer and yet another set of APS-C lenses. Still got a bunch of EF-S ...
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: Ricku on February 25, 2013, 06:30:23 AM
I really do not understand why Sony did not produce an RX-2 alongside the RX-1 ... with a lens mount. They do not even have to worry about "Cannibalizing" their DSLRs (or rather their sub-par SLTs) ... since those are not sold in worthwile numbers anyway. Sony could have gone ALL OUT and create the first real FF compact camera that beats a Leica M9 by a hige margin ... at a third of the price.  There is a HUGE amrket for such a camera + a range of ultra-compact, but decent pancake lenses and a high-end, ultra-compact / foldable 24-70/f 4.0 kit lens.
I think (hope) that you (we) will soon get what we ask for. :)

While Canon has failed us, there has been a steady steam of rumors about mirrorless frull frame cameras from Sony, Pentax, Samsung and Fuji.

http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/full-frame-nex-cameras-coming-in-one-year-nex-7-style-and-24-or-30-32mp-sensor/ (http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/full-frame-nex-cameras-coming-in-one-year-nex-7-style-and-24-or-30-32mp-sensor/)

http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/lets-drop-the-bomb-new-samsung-full-frame-nx-r-to-come-in-march/ (http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/lets-drop-the-bomb-new-samsung-full-frame-nx-r-to-come-in-march/)

http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/pentax-confirms-again-that-they-are-working-on-a-full-frame-camera/ (http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/pentax-confirms-again-that-they-are-working-on-a-full-frame-camera/)

http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/fuji-may-go-full-frame-mirrorless/ (http://www.mirrorlessrumors.com/fuji-may-go-full-frame-mirrorless/)

It is bound to happen. Hopefully this year or 2014.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: tiger82 on February 25, 2013, 08:31:25 AM
The Leica FF rangefinder camera is 5.5" x 3.1" x 1.7"
I measured my 5D2 thickness from the inside of the lens mount to the surface plane of the sensor and it is 1.6".  The 5D2 is 5.75" wide and 3.5" high (not counting the viewfinder) so the main body dimensions are similar to a Leica if you strip the SLR mechanism..
The EOS-M is 4.28" x 2.62" x 1.27", you can't shoehorn FF optics into that space.
Sony's RX1 is full frame but they had to resort to a fixed lens because the FF optics extend out of the main camera body into the lens, the size is 4.5" x 2.63" x 2.75" including the fixed lens.  To accommodate interchangeable lenses, the RX1 would have to be at least 1.7" thick and/or have complex optics at the camera/lens interface.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: AvTvM on February 25, 2013, 08:48:18 AM
Sony's RX1 is full frame but they had to resort to a fixed lens because the FF optics extend out of the main camera body into the lens, the size is 4.5" x 2.63" x 2.75" including the fixed lens.  To accommodate interchangeable lenses, the RX1 would have to be at least 1.7" thick and/or have complex optics at the camera/lens interface.

absolutely no! Package couild be axactly like Sony RX-1, just with a lens mount flush up front.
And a small range of lenses designed for it - essentially  a couple of ultra-compact pancakes 24/4.0, 35/2.8, 50/2.0, 75/2.8 and an equally ultracompact, foldable kit-zoom - say 24-70/f 4.0 L IS. 

And of course an EF-adapter ... distance ring with straight-through wiring from one end to the other, no chip, no optical elements. So easy, so simple, so cheap. :-)

 
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: tiger82 on February 25, 2013, 08:52:48 AM
Do you even understand the physics of optics?  If Sony could have done it, they would have made the RX1 compatible with their lenses.  They have $5000 of pricing between the Leica and the A99.   Why come out with an inflexible FF compact?
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: botw on February 25, 2013, 09:29:42 AM

The people slagging the M because it is not full frame are hysterical.  The full frame sensor gives you a marginally increased ability to decrease depth of field and larger pixels (depending on the sensor resolution) that make noise easier to handle.   The APS-C sensor works just fine for 99% of photography needs.  The M has problems.  The fact that it is not "full-frame" is not one of them.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: Dylan777 on February 25, 2013, 09:33:38 AM
I don't blame Sony for pricing RX1 at $2800, since it's the ONLY FF sensor camera built in P&S body for less than $3000. Not to mention, it comes with Carl Zeiss f2 lens. No other companies have "BLL" to bring this kind of product to the market.
Mark my words: If Fuji or Sony comes out FF camera in compact body like the RX1 or Fuji x100, faster AF and with exchangable lenses, I will DUMP all my Canon gear. I don't understand the point of waiting for Canon FF compact camera.

Sony RX-1 is also a problem rather than a solution as far as my demands are concerned.
1. I will NEVeR  buy a digital camera with a glued-on, ultra boring 35mm prime lens. No way. Its got to have a lens mount. And its got to have a fully-functional (IS, AF, flash-metering, distance information, etc.) adapter for Canon EF.
2. I will NEVER again buy a camera with dead slow AF. RX-1 ist way too slow. My acceptable minimum AF-speed is Nikon1, but preferably like a Panasonic GH-3.

I really do not understand why Sony did not produce an RX-2 alongside the RX-1 ... with a lens mount. They do not even have to worry about "Cannibalizing" their DSLRs (or rather their sub-par SLTs) ... since those are not sold in worthwile numbers anyway. Sony could have gone ALL OUT and create the first real FF compact camera that beats a Leica M9 by a hige margin ... at a third of the price.  There is a HUGE amrket for such a camera + a range of ultra-compact, but decent pancake lenses and a high-end, ultra-compact / foldable 24-70/f 4.0 kit lens.

I hope Canon will continue to be punished by the market (=us!) and hits the wall soon with its lacklustre APS-C EOS-M system. I will NEVER buy another APS-C camer and yet another set of APS-C lenses. Still got a bunch of EF-S ...

It's a starting point for Sony. I didn't see 35mm fixed as boring lens, I took over 2K photos last couple weeks with my RX1. My 5D III and all EF lenses been sitting in the bag lately - NOW, that is boring :-X

I do agree with exchange lenses features on RX series is a HUGE plus. RX1 is not designed as a sport camera. The AF speed on RX1 is good enough for me to capture my kids moving around, but I don't mind for having faster AF :P
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: Ricku on February 25, 2013, 09:41:00 AM
^ agreed. 35mm is not boring at all. It is the prime world's jack of all trades.

I even thought about selling my 35L and replace it with the Sony RX1.. But then I heard rumors about the full frame Nex.  :-X
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: mrsfotografie on February 25, 2013, 11:20:35 AM

The people slagging the M because it is not full frame are hysterical.  The full frame sensor gives you a marginally increased ability to decrease depth of field and larger pixels (depending on the sensor resolution) that make noise easier to handle.   The APS-C sensor works just fine for 99% of photography needs.  The M has problems.  The fact that it is not "full-frame" is not one of them.

+1, couldn't agree more.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: tiger82 on February 25, 2013, 11:21:59 AM
"In terms of design, the camera is said to resemble the NEX-7, except a bit bulkier. This seems to rule out the possibility that the camera will simply be an interchangeable-lens version of the RX1."

Emphasis on "A BIT BULKIER" to go full frame
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: tiger82 on February 25, 2013, 11:31:28 AM
Nex-7 size: 4.75" × 2.75" × 1.69"
EOS-M size: 4.28" x 2.62" x 1.27"

Both are APS-C.  Besides the optics, there are electronics involved to improve sensor IQ, AF performance, etc.  I don't see how anyone can think FF came fit within these package dimensions.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: AvTvM on February 25, 2013, 11:47:31 AM
Nex-7 size: 4.75" × 2.75" × 1.69"
EOS-M size: 4.28" x 2.62" x 1.27"

Both are APS-C.  Besides the optics, there are electronics involved to improve sensor IQ, AF performance, etc.  I don't see how anyone can think FF came fit within these package dimensions.

FF does not fit in a package as small als the APS-C EOS M. But FF does nicely fit into a package the size of a Sony RX-1. All that is still needed is a lens mount up front. Plus a few FF-capable "pancake" lenses the size of Leica-M lenses or the EF 40mm/2.8 pancake. I do not see anything difficult in that task. 

Even many years ago 36x24mm imaging surface was available in really small boxes ... with some smart engineering. Digital should be way easier, since there is no bulky film cartridge involved, but a flat, thin imaging-sensor. No need to settle for half-format cameras. I want full format. In a small box. :-)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/Rollei35s-minox35ml-side-open.jpg)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/45/Olympus_XA_camera_and_film.jpg)
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: RLPhoto on February 25, 2013, 11:54:53 AM
A Metabones Like tele-compressor from canon would even out the playing field on APS vs FF EVILS. Lets just see If they're smart enough to do so.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: tiger82 on February 25, 2013, 11:58:12 AM
"FF does not fit in a package as small als the APS-C EOS M. But it does fit in a package as small as the Sony RX-1. I would be more than happy size-wise with the RX-1

36x24mm imaging surface will fit into really small boxes ... with some smart engineering. :-)"


FF does not fit in an RX-1, that's why it has a fixed lens.  The lens includes the optical path for the light to get to the FF sensor.  LEICA = smart engineering and their FF body is the size of the 6D minus the viewfinder.

Your examples prove what I am saying and you are not understanding.  Fixed lenses to accommodate the approximately 35mm or 1.38" optical path minimum required between the FF sensor (35mm film) and the last lens element.  Add packaging for the body case and electronics and you are at around 1.75-2.00 inches minimum for a FF.  Film was easier, you could pretty much have the film slide along the back of the camera, not so with a sensor.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: tiger82 on February 25, 2013, 12:00:54 PM
A Metabones Like tele-compressor from canon would even out the playing field on APS vs FF EVILS. Lets just see If they're smart enough to do so.

Then you are not working with a true optical image
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: AvTvM on February 25, 2013, 01:08:50 PM
FF does not fit in an RX-1, that's why it has a fixed lens.  The lens includes the optical path for the light to get to the FF sensor.  LEICA = smart engineering and their FF body is the size of the 6D minus the viewfinder.

Your examples prove what I am saying and you are not understanding.  Fixed lenses to accommodate the approximately 35mm or 1.38" optical path minimum required between the FF sensor (35mm film) and the last lens element.  Add packaging for the body case and electronics and you are at around 1.75-2.00 inches minimum for a FF.  Film was easier, you could pretty much have the film slide along the back of the camera, not so with a sensor.

I do understand. We are talking of mirrorless here. No need for a lot of space betwenn rear lens element and sensor plane.

Whether "the light path is built into" a non-interchangeable prime lens stuck unto the body or into an interchangeable lens mounted via a lens mount makes no difference whatsover. Except the first "solution" yielda a dumb, inflexible single focal length camera and the second solution yields a versatile camera-system. :-)

Flange back for Leica M for example is is 27.8mm. I am quite sure 20mm are also doable with some smart microlens array and proper lens-design. And if the rear lens elements would stick somewhat into the camera body, the camera could be as thin as an RX-1 and the lenses could be really slim as well.

And that's exactly what I want.  And what the overwhelming majority of the market wants.

I will definitely NOT waste time and money moving from my current Canon APS-C DSLR plus lens assortment (EF-S, EF) to a Canon APS-C mirrorless plus new lens assortment (EF-M) to finally a Canon FF mirrorless ILC Camera ("EF-really right") with still another lens assortment. No way!

1. I want to skip purchase of another DSLR
2. I want to skip purhcasing any further APS-C cameras
3. I want to move right on to a compact, hi-performance FF mirrorless ILC with
* excellent sensor
* fast contrast+in-sensor-plane Phase-AF
* hi-end EVF
* full ergonomic controls [i.e. 2 wheels! ] 
* at max. 1/3 of the cost of a Leica M system - so basically at the price of Sony RX-1 

The first company to offer this, will be my next camera system vendor. :-)
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: Dantana on February 25, 2013, 01:22:18 PM
FF does not fit in an RX-1, that's why it has a fixed lens.  The lens includes the optical path for the light to get to the FF sensor.  LEICA = smart engineering and their FF body is the size of the 6D minus the viewfinder.

Your examples prove what I am saying and you are not understanding.  Fixed lenses to accommodate the approximately 35mm or 1.38" optical path minimum required between the FF sensor (35mm film) and the last lens element.  Add packaging for the body case and electronics and you are at around 1.75-2.00 inches minimum for a FF.  Film was easier, you could pretty much have the film slide along the back of the camera, not so with a sensor.

I do understand. We are talking of mirrorless here. No need for a lot of space betwenn rear lens element and sensor plane.

Whether "the light path is built into" a non-interchangeable prime lens stuck unto the body or into an interchangeable lens mounted via a lens mount makes no difference whatsover. Except the first "solution" yielda a dumb, inflexible single focal length camera and the second solution yields a versatile camera-system. :-)

Flange back for Leica M for example is is 27.8mm. I am quite sure 20mm are also doable with some smart microlens array and proper lens-design. And if the rear lens elements would stick somewhat into the camera body, the camera could be as thin as an RX-1 and the lenses could be really slim as well.

And that's exactly what I want.  And what the overwhelming majority of the market wants.

I will definitely NOT waste time and money moving from my current Canon APS-C DSLR plus lens assortment (EF-S, EF) to a Canon APS-C mirrorless plus new lens assortment (EF-M) to finally a Canon FF mirrorless ILC Camera ("EF-really right") with still another lens assortment. No way!

1. I want to skip purchase of another DSLR
2. I want to skip purhcasing any further APS-C cameras
3. I want to move right on to a compact, hi-performance FF mirrorless ILC with
* excellent sensor
* fast contrast+in-sensor-plane Phase-AF
* hi-end EVF
* full ergonomic controls [i.e. 2 wheels! ] 
* at max. 1/3 of the cost of a Leica M system - so basically at the price of Sony RX-1 

The first company to offer this, will be my next camera system vendor. :-)

And World Peace. Don't forget World Peace.

Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: Ivar on February 25, 2013, 01:22:38 PM
+1

Both Canon and Nikon are living in the past -- building cameras for markets that don't exist anymore.

There is NO demand for compact P&S and none for step-up cameras. They have been replaced by smart-phones.

There IS a demand for small/light high-end cameras with a good selection of lenses. So what does Canon deliver ??? An under-featured and over-priced EOS M. Soon to be joined by another under-featured camera priced higher than the Sony NEX-6. WTF is going on ???
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: Dylan777 on February 25, 2013, 01:51:17 PM
FF does not fit in an RX-1, that's why it has a fixed lens.  The lens includes the optical path for the light to get to the FF sensor.  LEICA = smart engineering and their FF body is the size of the 6D minus the viewfinder.

Your examples prove what I am saying and you are not understanding.  Fixed lenses to accommodate the approximately 35mm or 1.38" optical path minimum required between the FF sensor (35mm film) and the last lens element.  Add packaging for the body case and electronics and you are at around 1.75-2.00 inches minimum for a FF.  Film was easier, you could pretty much have the film slide along the back of the camera, not so with a sensor.

I do understand. We are talking of mirrorless here. No need for a lot of space betwenn rear lens element and sensor plane.

Whether "the light path is built into" a non-interchangeable prime lens stuck unto the body or into an interchangeable lens mounted via a lens mount makes no difference whatsover. Except the first "solution" yielda a dumb, inflexible single focal length camera and the second solution yields a versatile camera-system. :-)

Flange back for Leica M for example is is 27.8mm. I am quite sure 20mm are also doable with some smart microlens array and proper lens-design. And if the rear lens elements would stick somewhat into the camera body, the camera could be as thin as an RX-1 and the lenses could be really slim as well.

And that's exactly what I want.  And what the overwhelming majority of the market wants.

I will definitely NOT waste time and money moving from my current Canon APS-C DSLR plus lens assortment (EF-S, EF) to a Canon APS-C mirrorless plus new lens assortment (EF-M) to finally a Canon FF mirrorless ILC Camera ("EF-really right") with still another lens assortment. No way!

1. I want to skip purchase of another DSLR
2. I want to skip purhcasing any further APS-C cameras
3. I want to move right on to a compact, hi-performance FF mirrorless ILC with
* excellent sensor
* fast contrast+in-sensor-plane Phase-AF
* hi-end EVF
* full ergonomic controls [i.e. 2 wheels! ] 
* at max. 1/3 of the cost of a Leica M system - so basically at the price of Sony RX-1 

The first company to offer this, will be my next camera system vendor. :-)

Notify me when these avai. on the market. I'll be busy shooting with my RX1 til then ;)

I'll bet 25cents that Canon will NOT be the first....my take is Sony or Fuji ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: Random Orbits on February 25, 2013, 01:55:40 PM
And that's exactly what I want.  And what the overwhelming majority of the market wants.

I will definitely NOT waste time and money moving from my current Canon APS-C DSLR plus lens assortment (EF-S, EF) to a Canon APS-C mirrorless plus new lens assortment (EF-M) to finally a Canon FF mirrorless ILC Camera ("EF-really right") with still another lens assortment. No way!

1. I want to skip purchase of another DSLR
2. I want to skip purhcasing any further APS-C cameras
3. I want to move right on to a compact, hi-performance FF mirrorless ILC with
* excellent sensor
* fast contrast+in-sensor-plane Phase-AF
* hi-end EVF
* full ergonomic controls [i.e. 2 wheels! ] 
* at max. 1/3 of the cost of a Leica M system - so basically at the price of Sony RX-1 

The first company to offer this, will be my next camera system vendor. :-)

That's fine, but just be prepared to wait YEARS before that happens and even longer for a new set of lenses to take advantage of the new mount.  Until then, enjoy your current APS-C.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: DanielW on February 25, 2013, 02:05:19 PM
(...)
1. I want to skip purchase of another DSLR
2. I want to skip purhcasing any further APS-C cameras
3. I want to move right on to a compact, hi-performance FF mirrorless ILC with
* excellent sensor
* fast contrast+in-sensor-plane Phase-AF
* hi-end EVF
* full ergonomic controls [i.e. 2 wheels! ] 
* at max. 1/3 of the cost of a Leica M system - so basically at the price of Sony RX-1 
(...)

My wishlist is very similar, with the difference that I don't care about sensor size as long as image quality is good. Both the Olympus OM-D EM-5 and the Fuji X-Pro1/X-E1 look nice to me, and rumor has it that newer models will be available by the end of the year, when I'll think it through.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: Rocky on February 25, 2013, 02:51:43 PM
Canon  cannot even make a good APS-C mirrorless. People are asking FF from Canon??? Dream on!! Don't get me wrong, I like mirrorless. Like the other poster says, if Canon comes up with a GOOD mirrorless, even in APS-C, I will jump on it.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: Rocky on February 25, 2013, 04:03:20 PM
It's a starting point for Sony. I didn't see 35mm fixed as boring lens, I took over 2K photos last couple weeks with my RX1. My 5D III and all EF lenses been sitting in the bag lately - NOW, that is boring :-X


Agree, 35mm for FF is the most versatile  lens. In the old film days, while a good lens cost 1/2 month of wage, people used 35mm as their main lens. I know people travelled around the world with a 35mm and  a 90mm lens. For the film point and shoot, 40mm is the fixed lens.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: RLPhoto on February 26, 2013, 02:38:57 PM
A Metabones Like tele-compressor from canon would even out the playing field on APS vs FF EVILS. Lets just see If they're smart enough to do so.

Then you are not working with a true optical image

So, where's the issue?
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: dickgrafixstop on February 27, 2013, 12:51:26 PM
Does the phrase "perfuming the pig" come to mind.  Canon was way late to the market, took it's strike and whiffed terribly.  They have the money to try again, but the train has left the station.  By the way,
my Fuji XE and several lenses look a lot like what Canon should have offered.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: Jeff on February 27, 2013, 08:34:56 PM
What I don't understand is when everyone here claims the full frame can't be done, why not use the same basic body of the 6D without the mirror/viewfinder?  No it would not be pocket-able - my sony nex 5n is not pocket-able, but it would reduce weight and size while still functioning just like mk111.

I wouldn't go to a job without two bodies in my camera bag I just would prefer if that second or third backup camera while having the exact same sensor characteristics of the main body could also be designed in it's own unique way. In this case as small as possible for those times when I want to go hiking, street scenes, video work, mounting in unusual places and don't want a full size dslr. (funny I use to strictly use a 4x5)

After using the sony nex I've come to one conclusion there are two size cameras one is point n shoot pocket-able and the second needs to go in a bag.

Here's my analogy (I'm not a golfer or a gopher) it seems Canon keeps making all these different cameras to be all to every use instead of making each camera body unique to help with specific problems.  A golfer doesn't carry around a bag full of 9 irons or (do I dare:-) a bag full of woods. Nor is their putter manufactured significantly inferior to his driving wood because it's a lesser tool.

Yes mirrorless cameras are here to stay however I disagree they need to be a whole new system, but I'm only a photographer(tool user) not an engineer.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: Random Orbits on February 28, 2013, 09:38:18 AM
What I don't understand is when everyone here claims the full frame can't be done, why not use the same basic body of the 6D without the mirror/viewfinder?  No it would not be pocket-able - my sony nex 5n is not pocket-able, but it would reduce weight and size while still functioning just like mk111.

I wouldn't go to a job without two bodies in my camera bag I just would prefer if that second or third backup camera while having the exact same sensor characteristics of the main body could also be designed in it's own unique way. In this case as small as possible for those times when I want to go hiking, street scenes, video work, mounting in unusual places and don't want a full size dslr. (funny I use to strictly use a 4x5)

After using the sony nex I've come to one conclusion there are two size cameras one is point n shoot pocket-able and the second needs to go in a bag.

Here's my analogy (I'm not a golfer or a gopher) it seems Canon keeps making all these different cameras to be all to every use instead of making each camera body unique to help with specific problems.  A golfer doesn't carry around a bag full of 9 irons or (do I dare:-) a bag full of woods. Nor is their putter manufactured significantly inferior to his driving wood because it's a lesser tool.

Yes mirrorless cameras are here to stay however I disagree they need to be a whole new system, but I'm only a photographer(tool user) not an engineer.

If Canon were to make a mirrorless camera using the same EF lenses, then it wouldn't be much smaller because the mount size/design remains the same and it affects lens size.

If Canon were to make a mirrorless camera using a new mount, then wide to normal focal length lenses might get a bit smaller, but the large aperture telephoto lenses will be nearly the same size.  Anyone thinking that a 400 f/2.8 will be a lot smaller for a FF mirrorless camera than it currently is does not have reasonable expectations.  One of Canon's advantages is its large selection of lenses available.  Redesigning all the lenses for a new mount will take YEARS although an adapter can help lessen the transition pain.

I think Canon will eventually get to FF mirrorless bodies, but it will be a slow transition as technologies develop and production costs fall for the newer technologies (EVF at the same quality as the pentaprisms, etc.).  The other issue is that APS-Cs outsell FFs, so it's natural that Canon would address that larger segment with the EOS-M first.  I'd be tempted to get a 2nd generation EOS-M if it had improved AF for the wife and as a backup camera.  For lowlight and shallow DOF, I'd want to use fast primes anyway and those are not pocketable anyway...
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: CanNotYet on February 28, 2013, 10:05:23 AM
Lol  :) cardboard box with a sensor?
Be careful what you wish for...
http://www.petapixel.com/2012/04/27/ikea-cardboard-camera-called-knappa-to-land-on-store-shelves-soon/ (http://www.petapixel.com/2012/04/27/ikea-cardboard-camera-called-knappa-to-land-on-store-shelves-soon/)
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: RGF on March 23, 2013, 12:34:41 AM
If I can get good autofocus then I will consider the camera.  Until then, not interested
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: RGF on March 27, 2013, 12:57:35 PM
The main thing I'd want if I were going to by an M is a standard zoom that folds entirely inside the body when not in use.  Since I don't see that happening, I can't see this system ever becoming interesting.

That is a PS
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: bigal1000 on April 18, 2013, 04:11:31 PM
Yawn - I'm seriously considering a Sony Nex-6  8)

A little too late I just sold a Sony Nex 6 and bought an M with both lenses.Don't belive all the hype I thought it sucked.  The battery lasted about an hour the iq is not as good as the M.It's always is focusing and no way to turn it off andeats batteries like candy.It does focus a little faster for sure,but it's no SLR either.Also do any of you naysayers here actually own one?
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: mrsfotografie on April 20, 2013, 03:56:59 AM
Yawn - I'm seriously considering a Sony Nex-6  8)

A little too late I just sold a Sony Nex 6 and bought an M with both lenses.Don't belive all the hype I thought it sucked.  The battery lasted about an hour the iq is not as good as the M.It's always is focusing and no way to turn it off andeats batteries like candy.It does focus a little faster for sure,but it's no SLR either.Also do any of you naysayers here actually own one?

Yes I do have a Nex-6 :D

I agree it can be heavy on power use but that also depends on the lens in use (ie powerzoom vs manual zoom or prime) and proper power management settings. I've a second battery just in case it runs out.

IQ, I don't know what you're on about. It's stunning - better than the 7D.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: bigal1000 on April 22, 2013, 04:41:07 PM
Does the phrase "perfuming the pig" come to mind.  Canon was way late to the market, took it's strike and whiffed terribly.  They have the money to try again, but the train has left the station.  By the way,
my Fuji XE and several lenses look a lot like what Canon should have offered.

They(Fuji) are also twice the price.I owned one(EX-1) it doesn.t focus very fast either,it was no better than my M and by the way do own an EOS-M or have tried one,I didn't think so.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: tallrob on April 24, 2013, 11:09:06 AM
Why all the hate on the M?  Anyone who has used mirrorless cameras knows the AF is the weak point, and otherwise the M is an amazing little camera.  It got some bad reviews from people who didn't take the time to get to know the camera, and those negatives have been repeated over and over by a bunch of trolls.  I'd like to see how many poopooers have actually used one.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: ruger22 on April 27, 2013, 12:01:45 PM
Why all the hate on the M?  Anyone who has used mirrorless cameras knows the AF is the weak point, and otherwise the M is an amazing little camera.  It got some bad reviews from people who didn't take the time to get to know the camera, and those negatives have been repeated over and over by a bunch of trolls.  I'd like to see how many poopooers have actually used one.

+1 I think too many people who don't even have this camera complain about it.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: ruger22 on April 27, 2013, 12:05:24 PM
<div name=\"googleone_share_1\" style=\"position:relative;z-index:5;float: right; /*margin: 70px 0 0 0;*/ top:70px; right:120px; width:0;\"><g:plusone size=\"tall\" count=\"1\" href=\"http://www.canonrumors.com/2013/02/the-next-eos-m-cr1/\"></g:plusone></div><div style=\"float: right; margin:0 0 70px 70px;\"><a href=\"https://twitter.com/share\" class=\"twitter-share-button\" data-count=\"vertical\" data-url=\"http://www.canonrumors.com/2013/02/the-next-eos-m-cr1/\">Tweet</a></div>
<strong>Canon’s next mirrorless?<br />


</strong>Along with last week’s 7D spec list, we also received what is said to be the next EOS-M camera. A lot of people haven’t jumped on the EOS-M system yet, whether it’s the bad rap the AF gets, or the lack of lenses in the system, sales are quite weak for the little EOS camera. Most people seem to want something a little bit higher end, or at least be able to add accessories to improve the usability of the camera.</p>
<p><strong>Specifcations

</strong></p>
<ul>
<li>24mp APS-C Sensor</li>
<li>New generation AF system</li>
<li>DIGIC V</li>
<li>Removable Electronic Viewfinder (Very high resolution)</li>
<li>Optional grip attachment</li>
<li>5fps</li>
<li>Slightly larger than the current EOS M</li>
<li>Introduced with 3 more lenses</li>
<li>$999 USD</li>
</ul>
<p>Now, all of that sounds like pretty much everyones wish list, so take this CR1 rumor with a grain of salt. I will say that the next EOS M camera is definitely pointing to being higher end from other information we’ve received. An entry level EOS M system camera could be coming in early 2014 and sit in the sub $500 category.</p>
<p><strong><span style=\"color: #ff0000;\">c</span>r</strong></p>


That I would jump on.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: Act444 on April 27, 2013, 01:07:02 PM
Why all the hate on the M?  Anyone who has used mirrorless cameras knows the AF is the weak point, and otherwise the M is an amazing little camera.  It got some bad reviews from people who didn't take the time to get to know the camera, and those negatives have been repeated over and over by a bunch of trolls.  I'd like to see how many poopooers have actually used one.

As an owner/user of this camera I have to agree, actually. It really isn't nearly as bad as folks are making it sound.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: elflord on April 27, 2013, 01:24:06 PM
They(Fuji) are also twice the price.I owned one(EX-1) it doesn.t focus very fast either,it was no better than my M and by the way do own an EOS-M or have tried one,I didn't think so.

The Fuji came to the market with some decent (fast prime) lenses -- a normal fast prime (street shooters lens), a wide prime and a macro. No ho-hum consumer zooms.

They also tapped into an unfilled niche that the mirrorles enthusiasts had wanted for quite a while -- a rangefinder styled MILC with a built in viewfinder.

The camera is more expensive than Canon's offerings, much like a 1 series body costs more than a Canon 6D. It's in a completely different league.

The OM-D and Panasonic GH3 are also in completely different league (to the EOS-M) and sit at comparable price points.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: elflord on April 27, 2013, 01:28:30 PM
Why all the hate on the M?  Anyone who has used mirrorless cameras knows the AF is the weak point, and otherwise the M is an amazing little camera.  It got some bad reviews from people who didn't take the time to get to know the camera, and those negatives have been repeated over and over by a bunch of trolls.  I'd like to see how many poopooers have actually used one.

The EOS-M is just dandy until you start comparing it with the competition. Canon's offering is too-little-too-late. Olympus and Panasonic have already spent years refining AF and developing a system of lenses.

Canon comes into the market late with a me-too offering -- no innovation, weak lens system, and under-speced compared to similarly priced peers. You can get away with charging a premium if you are the market leader (as they are in DSLRs). The mistake is that they are not a leader in mirrorless cameras (actually they are pretty close to dead last at least among the major players).

As a DSLR vendor, they are justly aggorant.
As a mirrorless vendor, they are just arrogant.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: northbyten on April 27, 2013, 04:25:44 PM
Canon needs to do a Sony and release a ridiculously good EOS M and market it properly.

I personally wouldn't mind a taller EOS M body if it meant I could use EF lenses.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: Hillsilly on April 28, 2013, 02:07:04 AM
Hmmmm.... for two years prior to the introduction of the Eos-M, Canon's entry into the mirrorless market was a hot top on CanonRumors.  Curiously, Canon ignored nearly every suggestion made, and it's turned out to be a failure.  Who'd have thought?

After picking up my first mirrorless camera about two years ago, I've had a strong interest in the segment and have been watching it closely as it evolved.  If I was going to relaunch it, I'd: -

1.  Develop a lens roadmap, make it public and stick to it.  Canon is competing against well-established systems.  With only two Eos-M lenses, there is little market confidence that Canon is serious about this segment.  Adopters need to know the system will be supported.  Canon needs to communicate with their customers and provide timely firmware updates to fix problems and improve the camera.

2.  Develop high quality "L" grade lenses.  Anecdotally, I'd say a higher percentage of experienced photographers buy mirrorless cameras.  They want superior, high quality lenses.  With EF compatibility, there is only a need for handful of native focal lengths - 18, 35, 50, 85 and 135 would cover it, along with a couple of consumer zooms.

3.  I don't think autofocus is that important (but obviously still needs to be "ok") and should be as good as a DSLR in liveview.  With mirrorless cameras, the key ingredients are image quailty and portability.  I detected some anti-Eos M sentiments in earlier posts.  And while I'd agree that a DSLR is an optimal mix of features and image quality for most people, it isn't the right solution for all people.  With an increasing number of elderly photographers, hikers, bikers, travellers, people that don't want to carry 2kg of camera gear on their shoulders all day, people that don't want to look conspicuous, people that like shooting with Infra Red filters etc etc there is rapidly growing interest in smaller and lighter gear.  Many people will happily trade size for slower autofocus.  But very few people will trade image quality for anything.  In theory, the design of a mirrorless camera could/should be able to produce technically better images.  Canon needs to put this theory into action.  They need to demonstrate that full frame cmaeras aren't the only game in town.

4.  The two camera strategy is a good idea.  To set them apart from the competitors, the higher end camera should have substantial weather sealing.  It needs to be well built, made of metal and have sufficient buttons and dials to have all main features readily accessible - ie it needs to be a "photographers" camera and not a tarted up P & S.  It also needs an EVF (and maybe a viewfinder).  It needs a weak infrared filter.  Focus peaking with manual focus lenses would be well regarded.  Both cameras need to look good.  And they have to be distinctive.  They have to be something that you would be proud to own.  Personally, I'd go with retro Canonet styling.  But modern styling can also look good - I'd just try to make it more angular than some of Canon's recent work.  Battery life is also very important.  These cameras aren't going to be pocketable anyway, so don't scrimp on the battery - give us something that can last all day.

While I'm not surprised that the Eos-M hasn't performed well, I am happy that Canon is in this market.  It is an important market with the growing number of people seeing the benefits of high quality, but smaller and lighter gear.  I'm just hoping that Canon will produce a camera that I'd like to buy.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: paul13walnut5 on May 01, 2013, 03:31:05 PM
Well haters, I did it. I bought one!

22mm kit with EF-M adaptor. in black.

Tried one in store, with af set to single point (the way I've always used any AF camera other than my EOS 3) and in both one shot and servo modes it is well up to my needs and expectations from this kind of camera.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: tallrob on May 07, 2013, 05:57:22 PM
Well haters, I did it. I bought one!

22mm kit with EF-M adaptor. in black.

Tried one in store, with af set to single point (the way I've always used any AF camera other than my EOS 3) and in both one shot and servo modes it is well up to my needs and expectations from this kind of camera.

Thumbs up.
Title: Re: The Next EOS M? [CR1]
Post by: CanoSony on May 12, 2013, 12:31:16 AM
Yawn - I'm seriously considering a Sony Nex-6  8)

A little too late I just sold a Sony Nex 6 and bought an M with both lenses.Don't belive all the hype I thought it sucked.  The battery lasted about an hour the iq is not as good as the M.It's always is focusing and no way to turn it off andeats batteries like candy.It does focus a little faster for sure,but it's no SLR either.Also do any of you naysayers here actually own one?

1. The battery lasts for about 300 shots,
2. The IQ is BETTER than the EOS M http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Cameras/Compare-Camera-Sensors/Compare-cameras-side-by-side/(appareil1)/832%7C0/(brand)/Sony/(appareil2)/819%7C0/(brand2)/Canon  (http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Cameras/Compare-Camera-Sensors/Compare-cameras-side-by-side/(appareil1)/832%7C0/(brand)/Sony/(appareil2)/819%7C0/(brand2)/Canon)
3. "its always focusing" TURN OFF THE CONTIUOUS FOCUSING.


Maybe you just didnt know how to use the camera. NEX 6 blows away the EOS M in everything.