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Gear Talk => Technical Support => Topic started by: Malte_P on March 02, 2013, 03:56:56 AM

Title: im thinking about buying a DELL 2713HM - how important is wide gamut?
Post by: Malte_P on March 02, 2013, 03:56:56 AM
i need a new monitor.
i looked for month while my old samsung monitor gets worse and worse because of aging.

i read a lot good things about the DELL 2713HM and also a lot of worse.
the worse was some noise when text is displayed and bad luminance uniformity that some models show (the 2713H was said is worse in that regard).

anyway for 500 euro (the maximum im willing to pay) it seems to be the best 27" monitor so far.
i want 27" and high resolution because i do a lot of 3D work and need the screen space.
i know the 2713H is just released, but it´s 300 euro more and i don´t want to pay that.

my question is... how important is wide gamut for you?
makes it such a great difference when working with photos?
i have no idea because i never used a wide gamut display.

i don´t work for the web. all my stuff is for video output or print (i have a epson r2880).

anyone here who has a DELL 2713HM and want to share his experience?
Title: Re: im thinking about buying a DELL 2713HM - how important is wide gamut?
Post by: endiendo on March 02, 2013, 04:53:39 AM
I'm hesitating too, but I have seen the Asus PB278Q, which seems to be very good too.
The Dell should be calibrated, but some say that they have differences between samples..  you have not always the same result. So i don't know, I'm a little afraid about this dell.
Title: Re: im thinking about buying a DELL 2713HM - how important is wide gamut?
Post by: Malte_P on March 02, 2013, 05:26:19 AM
i have a DTP94 colorimeter so that would be no big concern.

differences between samples are normal i think.
you get a PDF with the calibration details.
i think if one monitor is way outside the tolerances they would notice that.

it´s more that i don´t know how much better the photographic workflow would be with a wide gamut monitor.  ???
if the output matching (prints on my R2880) would be much easier when i have a wide gamut monitor.
Title: Re: im thinking about buying a DELL 2713HM - how important is wide gamut?
Post by: Z on March 02, 2013, 05:30:51 AM
I've just swapped to wide gamut and I wouldn't go back. The extra colour depth is noticeable and I really appreciate it for skin tone highlights.

However, wide gamut comes with several caveats. You really need a solid understanding of colour management or it is likely to bite you in the ass.

When you say the Dell "should be calibrated"... I would like to correct this. Dell will send your monitor with a factory calibration report, usually stating that DeltaE (the measure of how well colour is calibrated; lower is better) is < 5 or something. This is 100% lies. My U2410 came with a calibration report stating average DeltaE was 4 (which is 'okay' but not really acceptable for colour critical work), but when I measured DeltaE with my i1 display pro, it was actually around 10. In fact, the monitor had a distinct cool green hue to whites.

Now that I've calibrated it myself using the i1, average DeltaE is 0.7 with max of 1.3. Pretty good by any standards.

Regarding the PB278Q, here is the tftcentral review: http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/asus_pb278q.htm (http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews/asus_pb278q.htm)
His model came with a maximum DeltaE of 10 in the blue hue measured... which is pretty bad to be honest. Average of 3.4 is not awful but not great either.

RE: The Dell 2713HM, it had a DeltaE average of 2.7 with a max of 5.7. So slightly better.

In a nutshell:

1) Wide gamut is useful for printing because some printers are capable of displaying a wider gamut than sRGB. It is not particularly useful for web display, and can even be detrimental if you forget to convert your photos to sRGB for web use or when sending to other "non photo" people.

2) A good monitor is only as good as its calibration and all 'out of the box' calibration is pretty rubbish. As a photographer you shouldn't be saying "I have x budget for my monitor", you should be thinking "I have x budget for my monitor and calibration equipment"
Title: Re: im thinking about buying a DELL 2713HM - how important is wide gamut?
Post by: Malte_P on March 02, 2013, 05:38:59 AM
i think you wrote as i typed my second post. :)
i have a DTP94 already.

web output is as i said no concern for me.

95% of what i do is video burned to blu-ray and prints.

what would you say on how many percent of your images a wide gamut display will make a significant difference?
on most images or only on special images that show some very saturated colors?
Title: Re: im thinking about buying a DELL 2713HM - how important is wide gamut?
Post by: Z on March 02, 2013, 07:22:23 AM
i think you wrote as i typed my second post. :)
i have a DTP94 already.
Ha, yeah I did.

web output is as i said no concern for me.

95% of what i do is video burned to blu-ray and prints.

what would you say on how many percent of your images a wide gamut display will make a significant difference?
on most images or only on special images that show some very saturated colors?
That's a good question and I don't really have a good answer. As I said, I've only recently swapped to wide gamut. But if I had to take a stab at a percent of my photos that would significantly benefit from wide gamut editing/printing, it'd be around 5%. It seems to be photos taken in direct sunlight or with saturated flowers and clothing where I've compared sRGB to Adobe RGB and been like ... "wow, before I was editing these colours I couldn't even see".

However, that doesn't go to say that ALL these extra colours and nicely graduated tones that I can see on my monitor will print that way. As it happens, my local printing company supply print profiles for proofing (very handy) and overly saturated reds come nowhere near to the Adobe RGB colour space.
Title: Re: im thinking about buying a DELL 2713HM - how important is wide gamut?
Post by: dafrank on March 02, 2013, 09:24:20 AM
Tough question to answer completely, but here goes.

Since you "do mostly 3-D" (I have done my share as well), what you most need, if your are rendering the images or animations yourself, is a monitor that covers, as close as possible, the NTSC gamut, which is larger than even the typical  "wide gamut" monitor. In the alternative, at least have a small real NTSC gamut "video" monitor to also check your work on, in addition to your primary computer monitor which can vary significantly from a true video monitor by gamut, format or resolution.

Secondly, their are many different definitions of "wide gamut," usually expressed as a percentage of one particular gamut, and you should understand the definitions of the various gamuts, their relationships to each other (usually expressed in colorful graphs) and their significance. Do some research on the web. Bing and Google will be your friends. Note that a true NTSC gamut monitor requires a bigger or "wider" color space than even one which can display 100% of Adobe RGB, usually the gold standard for wide gamut monitors. Therefore, it would be best, if one does high-end 3-D which is destined to be mixed with video or displayed on video monitors, to choose a computer monitor with the widest possible gamut, to get as close to NTSC as possible.

Three last things. Make sure you have the proper monitor color profiling tools, from either the monitor maker or from companies like Xrite, and learn to use them correctly and often. And, it would be best, if you do get a good wide gamut monitor, that you also get a monitor/profiling system which can fairly well simulate narrower gamuts, especially SRGB, so that you can accurately guage how your work will likely appear on the "average Joe's" home or office computer monitor as well. About uneveness of color across the screen: don't underestimate how awful this one flaw can be; it will have a very negative effect on your work, both in possible color errors, and/or the extra time needed to "move around" your images on the screen to check color. I would never accept a monitor that had more than a trifling of uneven color, no matter how big the screen.

Regards,
David
Title: Re: im thinking about buying a DELL 2713HM - how important is wide gamut?
Post by: Malte_P on March 04, 2013, 04:56:30 PM
ok so i bought one. came today.
will send it back tomorrow.   ::)

i read the good review at prad.de and could not believe the bad reviews on amazon.de
well they seem to be true.

backlight bleeding. and a nasty change of brightness over the screen.
lower left corner way brighter then the rest of the screen.   :-\

not worth the money.
can´t believe dell sells such crap.. did they have no quality testing?


so i will save some more money and buy a NEC 27 in a few month.
Title: Re: im thinking about buying a DELL 2713HM - how important is wide gamut?
Post by: Z on March 05, 2013, 04:47:16 AM
Sorry to hear it didn't work out for you.

I was hoping my U2410 would have better panel uniformity to be honest, but I knew what I was getting in for after reading the tftcentral review. My monitor is calibrated to 100cd/m^2 but the bottom left hand corner is 83 and the right-hand side is 107! Still, it's very much a midrange product and I've decided to put up with it.
Title: Re: im thinking about buying a DELL 2713HM - how important is wide gamut?
Post by: Malte_P on March 05, 2013, 06:07:55 AM
Sorry to hear it didn't work out for you.

I was hoping my U2410 would have better panel uniformity to be honest, but I knew what I was getting in for after reading the tftcentral review. My monitor is calibrated to 100cd/m^2 but the bottom left hand corner is 83 and the right-hand side is 107! Still, it's very much a midrange product and I've decided to put up with it.

i did a lot of research on the web and this is a common issue with them 2713HM.
i just thought it´s a pretty small amount of monitors who have this issue and i would be lucky.
well i was not.  :-\

i could not believe dell is selling such crap when they know about the problem.

it seems like all 2713HM monitors have this issue but in different strength.
i could see it even when working in photoshop on a gray background.
others just see it on a black background.

and my 200 euro samsung monitors from 2007 are better in this regard.
that is a real shame for dell.
Title: Re: im thinking about buying a DELL 2713HM - how important is wide gamut?
Post by: nda on March 05, 2013, 06:19:46 AM
We bought 2xDell 2713hm for our studio, one was faulty and replaced by Dell but the replacement was also faulty!!! in the end we bought the Asus PB278Q, very happy with it as good if not better than the Dell ;)
Title: Re: im thinking about buying a DELL 2713HM - how important is wide gamut?
Post by: Maui5150 on March 05, 2013, 07:14:51 AM
STAY AWAY FROM DELL.

Worst Monitors I have owned.  I am going on my 4th monitor in 5 months because of dead/dying pixels and other issues. 

Specs are nice - but product is crap.  Your luck may vary, but I don't even bother putting the box in the attic any more... I just leave it right besides the desk. 

Maybe Dell can offer a new service and include a future dated RMA with every purchase.
Title: Re: im thinking about buying a DELL 2713HM - how important is wide gamut?
Post by: nomad85 on March 05, 2013, 07:21:30 AM
I have 3 Dell monitors here and all are highly appreciated :). The U2711's are my main monitors, which I have 2 of next to eachother on my desk. The U2412m is my secondary screen where menu's etc are placed.

I am a fulltime photographer and really like the 2711's and when working on photo's for print etc it's really good. But some of the work I deliver is digital only to consumers and that's where it goes wrong. I like my photo's light and fresh and I push that in my workflow. On my calibrated screens I have no blown out whites and really like the photo's. On the clients laptop / crappy screen with no wide-gamut the photo's are to white and have blown out colors.

My solution is placing de U2412m in sRGB mode and since it has no wide-gamut I use that screen to "proof" what the client will see.

But all in all, I think you should get the U2711 or U2713 screen, the resolution and the quality allows you to work well in photoshop and lightroom.
Title: Re: im thinking about buying a DELL 2713HM - how important is wide gamut?
Post by: Malte_P on March 05, 2013, 07:47:00 AM
But all in all, I think you should get the U2711 or U2713 screen, the resolution and the quality allows you to work well in photoshop and lightroom.

did you read what i wrote? :)


Quote
STAY AWAY FROM DELL.

today i was at the local electronic store and they had 2 of the 2713HM on display.
showing some fancy colorfull slideshows.

i asked the salesperson if i could test it and he connected it to a PC so i could surf and open a few windows programs.

what can i say it showed the same issue as my 2713HM, just not as strong.
or maybe it was because ambient light was brighter in the store.

i showed it to the salesperson... asked him to connect the other monitor. result: exactly the same.

asked him if he would buy such a monitor for 559 euro... well of course he said no.   ::)
Title: Re: im thinking about buying a DELL 2713HM - how important is wide gamut?
Post by: bchernicoff on March 05, 2013, 09:55:18 AM
I bought a 2711 to sit next to my 27" iMac to gain wide color gamut. The anti-glare coating makes the monitor useless for photographic work. I can't really describe how bad it is. It's like someone put a thin film of prisms in front of the screen. You get multi-colored sparkles everywhere. The monitor now sits on the floor, unplugged.

EDIT: For what it's worth, I don't know if the 2713 has an improved anti-glare filter or not.
Title: Re: im thinking about buying a DELL 2713HM - how important is wide gamut?
Post by: ilkersen on March 05, 2013, 10:50:25 AM
This thread is depressing...  I was just thinking about buying one as well.
What to buy then?
Title: Re: im thinking about buying a DELL 2713HM - how important is wide gamut?
Post by: TrumpetPower! on March 05, 2013, 11:03:03 AM
This thread is depressing...  I was just thinking about buying one as well.
What to buy then?

Eizo or NEC.

Not cheap, but it's pretty apparent what cheap gets you....

b&
Title: Re: im thinking about buying a DELL 2713HM - how important is wide gamut?
Post by: Wildfire on March 05, 2013, 11:15:34 AM
Newegg's got the NEC P232W-BK for $573... Not sure how good it is but I'd guess that NEC is superior to Dell.
Title: Re: im thinking about buying a DELL 2713HM - how important is wide gamut?
Post by: Wilmark on March 05, 2013, 11:25:28 AM
@ Wildfire, The NEC P232W-BK is a totally different resolution and pixel size class.
Title: Re: im thinking about buying a DELL 2713HM - how important is wide gamut?
Post by: sheedoe on March 05, 2013, 11:40:53 AM
I have done a mini review of Dell U2713H vs NEC PA241W-BK on Dell.com. I'll just copy and paste it below. I don't find myself using the wide-gamut feature much because I mostly print photo books from adoramapix.com and they only accept sRGB color profile. I just bought the wide gamut version just incase I need it in the future.

Review from Dell.com:

I have used the NEC MultiSync PA241W-BK for a couple of years and now decided to upgrade to a slightly bigger monitor with Adobe RGB color gamut and LED backlighting. Here's what I found:

Pros:

- Less aggressive AG coating. The NEC had very matte looking screen where images looked grainy and text weren't that sharp. Dell's semi-gloss AG is much smoother and images look great.

- LED backlighting. Gives slightly higher contrast and better image quality.

- Price. Cheaper than comparable sized NEC (PA271W-BK)

Cons:

-Backlight bleeding. I have read that it happens on the U2713HM model and was hoping it would not be present in this model. However, the backlight bleeding is there and is quite noticeable throughout the screen, especially in the corners. The NEC handled this much better.

- USB 3.0 buggy. I'm using Windows 8 in a custom built PC, and connecting this monitor to the USB 3.0 port on my computer causes it to crash. I've once got it working after assigning windows default driver for my USB 3.0 port, but it would still cause my system to crash if I turn the monitor off while the computer is on. It works good when connected to USB 2.0 port, but you loose the speed.

- Touch adjustment button is often irresponsive. The main 'Menu' touch screen button often fails to bring up the menu. Most of the times it works in the first touch or two, but at times I have even had to press it up to 10 times to bring up the menu. Wish it had a more responsive, solid button.

- Dell Utility manager doesn't detect the monitor. Not sure why the latest Utility manager doesn't detect it. Maybe its because I'm using windows 8. I'm not sure. I will keep checking for an update to the software.

Overall, this monitor is average for the price. It has some issues that needs to be worked out. Just a quick note: I have Rev A01 of this model. Also, shop around! I've purchased this from a retailer for 25% less than the MSRP.
Title: Re: im thinking about buying a DELL 2713HM - how important is wide gamut?
Post by: nomad85 on March 05, 2013, 07:19:32 PM
I do not recognize all the bad stories about Dell. As I said, I have 3 Dell screens and all work well.
There is a reason why millions of people, including photographers use the screens. Read the reviews, almost all are quite positive about the pro line of Dell.
Just because 3 or 4 people here like to polarise their story and make Dell sound awful doesn't mean that is the truth. Just as what I say does not automatically mean it's true. Read the better reviews online and check the monitor for yourself.

Like i said, I have 2x U2711 and both work quite well here and am glad I bought them.
Title: Re: im thinking about buying a DELL 2713HM - how important is wide gamut?
Post by: smithy on March 07, 2013, 05:00:40 AM
I own the 2713HM and my unit appears to be fine.  In fact, after calibrating with a Spyder4 Pro, the data shows that it produces 100% of the SRGB space and 82% of the Adobe colour space.  I use it for Photoshop and gaming.

My second monitor is my old Dell 2407WFP.  The first one I owned died after a year, but Dell provided a 'next day' replacement with a unit that has been working reliably for the last 6 years.

No dead pixels on either unit.

The 2713HM uses an LG IPS panel - a newer version of the one found in the Apple Cinema Display.  When investigating monitors I'd recommend checking the technical details on www.tftcentral.co.uk (http://www.tftcentral.co.uk) to find out exactly what you're getting.
Title: Re: im thinking about buying a DELL 2713HM - how important is wide gamut?
Post by: pwp on March 07, 2013, 06:50:17 AM
STAY AWAY FROM DELL.

Worst Monitors I have owned.  I am going on my 4th monitor in 5 months because of dead/dying pixels and other issues. 

Specs are nice - but product is crap.  Your luck may vary, but I don't even bother putting the box in the attic any more... I just leave it right besides the desk. 

Maybe Dell can offer a new service and include a future dated RMA with every purchase.

Sounds like you have been buying the Dell office grade cheapies. They're patently not suitable for working with images or performance gaming. In a recent similar CR thread I mentioned we have five Dells in the studio, U3011, U2711 and three older UltraSharp spec 24 inch panels.

They have all been faultless workhorses. I will buy more Dells when required. My first Dell, a 24 inch Ultrasharp from around 2007 is still working perfectly. It calibrates fine with the EyeOne. Very stable. Go figure. People just seem to love flaming Dell. That said, I wouldn't buy anything from them other than their premium monitors. It's not that their other hardware is bad, it's just not suitable.

-PW
Title: Re: im thinking about buying a DELL 2713HM - how important is wide gamut?
Post by: J.R. on March 07, 2013, 07:02:39 AM
STAY AWAY FROM DELL.

Worst Monitors I have owned.  I am going on my 4th monitor in 5 months because of dead/dying pixels and other issues. 

Specs are nice - but product is crap.  Your luck may vary, but I don't even bother putting the box in the attic any more... I just leave it right besides the desk. 

Maybe Dell can offer a new service and include a future dated RMA with every purchase.

Sounds like you have been buying the Dell office grade cheapies. They're patently not suitable for working with images or performance gaming. In a recent similar CR thread I mentioned we have five Dells in the studio, U3011, U2711 and three older UltraSharp spec 24 inch panels.

They have all been faultless workhorses. I will buy more Dells when required. My first Dell, a 24 inch Ultrasharp from around 2007 is still working perfectly. It calibrates fine with the EyeOne. Very stable. Go figure. People just seem to love flaming Dell. That said, I wouldn't buy anything from them other than their premium monitors. It's not that their other hardware is bad, it's just not suitable.

-PW

Thanks pwp!

I had ordered the 2173H on Tuesday and it is on the way to be delivered Monday. I had lost some sleep last night wondering whether it would be a crash and burn for the $ 1,000 I paid for it. 
Title: Re: im thinking about buying a DELL 2713HM - how important is wide gamut?
Post by: jondave on March 07, 2013, 07:56:36 AM
IF YOU DON'T HAVE CALIBRATION EQUIPMENT (OR HAVE NO MEANS TO CALIBRATE), DON'T GET A WIDE GAMUT MONITOR.

That being said, if you print your own photos (assuming your printer is also properly profiled) or use a pro lab for your printing needs, then you would need a wide gamut monitor to ensure your prints are as accurate and as close as possible to your post-processed output.

Owning a wide gamut monitor is really all about your output - if your output will not be displayed through a wide-gamut environment, either in your clients' monitors or through lab print, then you don't need it. It's like how you don't need a D800 if all you're doing is post photos online or print A4 sized photos.
Title: Re: im thinking about buying a DELL 2713HM - how important is wide gamut?
Post by: sheedoe on March 07, 2013, 12:55:49 PM
STAY AWAY FROM DELL.

Worst Monitors I have owned.  I am going on my 4th monitor in 5 months because of dead/dying pixels and other issues. 

Specs are nice - but product is crap.  Your luck may vary, but I don't even bother putting the box in the attic any more... I just leave it right besides the desk. 

Maybe Dell can offer a new service and include a future dated RMA with every purchase.

Sounds like you have been buying the Dell office grade cheapies. They're patently not suitable for working with images or performance gaming. In a recent similar CR thread I mentioned we have five Dells in the studio, U3011, U2711 and three older UltraSharp spec 24 inch panels.

They have all been faultless workhorses. I will buy more Dells when required. My first Dell, a 24 inch Ultrasharp from around 2007 is still working perfectly. It calibrates fine with the EyeOne. Very stable. Go figure. People just seem to love flaming Dell. That said, I wouldn't buy anything from them other than their premium monitors. It's not that their other hardware is bad, it's just not suitable.

-PW

Thanks pwp!

I had ordered the 2173H on Tuesday and it is on the way to be delivered Monday. I had lost some sleep last night wondering whether it would be a crash and burn for the $ 1,000 I paid for it.

Why did you pay $1000? You could've bought it from from ecost or nextwarehouse (which is where I bought mine), you could've gotten it for $727. With $8 extra, you could also opt for free return shipping if you dont like it. With the money saved, you could've bought the xrite i1 display pro for hardware calibration, which you will eventually need for proper calibration.
Title: Re: im thinking about buying a DELL 2713HM - how important is wide gamut?
Post by: J.R. on March 07, 2013, 09:23:58 PM
STAY AWAY FROM DELL.

Worst Monitors I have owned.  I am going on my 4th monitor in 5 months because of dead/dying pixels and other issues. 

Specs are nice - but product is crap.  Your luck may vary, but I don't even bother putting the box in the attic any more... I just leave it right besides the desk. 

Maybe Dell can offer a new service and include a future dated RMA with every purchase.

Sounds like you have been buying the Dell office grade cheapies. They're patently not suitable for working with images or performance gaming. In a recent similar CR thread I mentioned we have five Dells in the studio, U3011, U2711 and three older UltraSharp spec 24 inch panels.

They have all been faultless workhorses. I will buy more Dells when required. My first Dell, a 24 inch Ultrasharp from around 2007 is still working perfectly. It calibrates fine with the EyeOne. Very stable. Go figure. People just seem to love flaming Dell. That said, I wouldn't buy anything from them other than their premium monitors. It's not that their other hardware is bad, it's just not suitable.

-PW

Thanks pwp!

I had ordered the 2173H on Tuesday and it is on the way to be delivered Monday. I had lost some sleep last night wondering whether it would be a crash and burn for the $ 1,000 I paid for it.

Why did you pay $1000? You could've bought it from from ecost or nextwarehouse (which is where I bought mine), you could've gotten it for $727. With $8 extra, you could also opt for free return shipping if you dont like it. With the money saved, you could've bought the xrite i1 display pro for hardware calibration, which you will eventually need for proper calibration.

I am not in the US and the imports attract a customs duty of 30%.
Title: Re: im thinking about buying a DELL 2713HM - how important is wide gamut?
Post by: Canon 14-24 on March 27, 2013, 01:17:41 PM
I am a fulltime photographer and really like the 2711's and when working on photo's for print etc it's really good. But some of the work I deliver is digital only to consumers and that's where it goes wrong. I like my photo's light and fresh and I push that in my workflow. On my calibrated screens I have no blown out whites and really like the photo's. On the clients laptop / crappy screen with no wide-gamut the photo's are to white and have blown out colors.

My solution is placing de U2412m in sRGB mode and since it has no wide-gamut I use that screen to "proof" what the client will see.

Hopefully not to detract from the original poster's thread, but what you posted are some of the concerns I have in my search for a 30" monitor which for a budget under $1500 seem to be really limited to just the Dell and HP.

In regards to your solution of "proofing" what the client would see on their monitor, does this involve having to re-edit or tweak all your previous work for the client to be viewed on a standard non-wide gamut sRGB screen? I am just trying to get an idea into my work flow, if I will be doing "double-duty" in my workload with the use of a wide-gamut monitor.

Also, would it be easy to swap modes in these Dell monitors with minimal re-calibration work for the novice user? For example, these wide gamut monitors can be set to a sRGB mode for the 99% of the work I do, and then for that 1 picture the client wants an enlargement print, I can change the sRGB mode to a saved preset wide-gamut mode with minimal or no re-calibration work necessary?