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Gear Talk => EOS Bodies - For Video => Topic started by: Cgdillan on March 06, 2013, 11:41:46 PM

Title: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
Post by: Cgdillan on March 06, 2013, 11:41:46 PM
I am currently using my 5D mkIII for all my video work, and I love it. But, I want better images. I love DSLRs for my weddings and they treat me well, but for things where I need only a single camera and have more time to figure out and setup my shots, I need something sharper, some more DR, and something more gradable. Wondering how much the RAW will benefit me from the BMCC vs the ease of use of the C100.

The issue is more with my Real Estate Listing video when I have many shots where I will be needing to shoot interiors but still want to see out the window to the ocean.

BMCC Pros:
RAW - More DR
2.5K - Downgrade to HD for a nicer HD image

C100 Pros
Fewer Components needed - Don't need extra battery pack etc..
Smaller file sizes and Cheaper Media
Much Better Ergonomics

I like everything about the C100 better than the BMCC, but, the BMCC can shoot raw. Will I notice the extra stop of DR when I am pulling down the highlights and bringing up the shadows for the high DR shots? (shooting interiors looking out a window)

I imagine the price of the two cameras would pretty much even out when you consider the cost of SSD drives, extra batteries for BMCC, and more hard drive space on the computer.

What do you think? worth the extra stop of DR and RAW Codec?
Title: Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
Post by: Axilrod on March 07, 2013, 12:43:13 AM
I had the BMCC for 4 days a couple weeks ago.  Yeah the image quality is great, but there were plenty of negatives and after using it for the weekend I was a lot less excited than I was when I saw the specs.  Shooting RAW is a huge pain.  My  iMac with SSD/32GB RAM/Thunderbolt hard drives would barely play the files, not to mention they are absolutely massive.    Shoot 10 minutes of footage you have 14400 individual stills to deal with, it's kinda overwhelming.  Also, I tried shooting with a 120GB Samsung 840 SSD, only to find out later it wasn't fast enough.  Only the higher capacity hard drives are fast enough it (500GB in Samsung's case), minimum 256GB.  They are getting cheaper, but shooting RAW 1 256GB SSD will only get you about 30-40 minutes worth of footage.  And if you're doing this for multiple houses that's going to be a lot of files. 

Aside from that, the thing is alot heavier than it looks and the ergonomics suck.  Even with the BMCC handles it just feels awkward, and if you're using the handles how are you supposed to pull focus?  On my Redrock rig it was lopsided, since I had to use a riser so I could look directly at the back of the screen (No HDMI, only 3G-HDSDI, even my $1000 Marshall wont work with it).  When you push the iris button it automatically tries to adjust the aperture, and you have to hold it down and press the forward/backward keys and it just feels weird and you have to use both hands to pull it off.  And it's not like a DSLR in terms of low-light, so you may need to light dimmer spaces.

And then there is the sensor size.  The 2.4x crop feels kinda limiting and for me would immediately make it out of the question for real estate photography.  You want to get ultra-wide in some spaces, but with the BMCC you have to settle for a Sigma 8-16mm f/4.5-f/5.6 to get as wide as you can (the equivalent of 19mm on full frame).  But 10mm=24mm so it feels really weird.  On the flipside a 135 f/2 becomes a 325mm f/2 or something like that, so that's cool.

More or less, I felt like the Prores footage looked great too, but RAW is what is so attractive about the camera.  But I wouldn't shoot RAW on this thing unless I was trying to make some serious award-winning type stuff.  You would just need a ridiculously fast computer to edit this stuff smoothly and tons of storage space for the flies.  That, coupled with the sensor/shipping issues with them and now people are saying their lenses won't focus at infinity, it's just really turned me off towards it.  If you're absolutely set on getting it I'd wait for the MFT version, with the Metabones Speed Booster the crop will be reduced to closer to 1.5x-1.6x.

I think the C100 is great though and have heard nothing but praise from friends that are using it.  But I think the BMCC is overkill for what you are doing, honestly I would think your 5D3 would do the job, have you thought about maybe adding something to your setup to improve the quality?  All I know is your average Joe probably can't tell a difference between the BMCC and 5D3, and if they can it's not big enough to make or break a sale. 
Title: Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
Post by: Cgdillan on March 07, 2013, 03:44:46 AM
I had the BMCC for 4 days a couple weeks ago.  Yeah the image quality is great, but there were plenty of negatives and after using it for the weekend I was a lot less excited than I was when I saw the specs.  Shooting RAW is a huge pain.  My  iMac with SSD/32GB RAM/Thunderbolt hard drives would barely play the files, not to mention they are absolutely massive.    Shoot 10 minutes of footage you have 14400 individual stills to deal with, it's kinda overwhelming.  Also, I tried shooting with a 120GB Samsung 840 SSD, only to find out later it wasn't fast enough.  Only the higher capacity hard drives are fast enough it (500GB in Samsung's case), minimum 256GB.  They are getting cheaper, but shooting RAW 1 256GB SSD will only get you about 30-40 minutes worth of footage.  And if you're doing this for multiple houses that's going to be a lot of files. 

Aside from that, the thing is alot heavier than it looks and the ergonomics suck.  Even with the BMCC handles it just feels awkward, and if you're using the handles how are you supposed to pull focus?  On my Redrock rig it was lopsided, since I had to use a riser so I could look directly at the back of the screen (No HDMI, only 3G-HDSDI, even my $1000 Marshall wont work with it).  When you push the iris button it automatically tries to adjust the aperture, and you have to hold it down and press the forward/backward keys and it just feels weird and you have to use both hands to pull it off.  And it's not like a DSLR in terms of low-light, so you may need to light dimmer spaces.

And then there is the sensor size.  The 2.4x crop feels kinda limiting and for me would immediately make it out of the question for real estate photography.  You want to get ultra-wide in some spaces, but with the BMCC you have to settle for a Sigma 8-16mm f/4.5-f/5.6 to get as wide as you can (the equivalent of 19mm on full frame).  But 10mm=24mm so it feels really weird.  On the flipside a 135 f/2 becomes a 325mm f/2 or something like that, so that's cool.

More or less, I felt like the Prores footage looked great too, but RAW is what is so attractive about the camera.  But I wouldn't shoot RAW on this thing unless I was trying to make some serious award-winning type stuff.  You would just need a ridiculously fast computer to edit this stuff smoothly and tons of storage space for the flies.  That, coupled with the sensor/shipping issues with them and now people are saying their lenses won't focus at infinity, it's just really turned me off towards it.  If you're absolutely set on getting it I'd wait for the MFT version, with the Metabones Speed Booster the crop will be reduced to closer to 1.5x-1.6x.

I think the C100 is great though and have heard nothing but praise from friends that are using it.  But I think the BMCC is overkill for what you are doing, honestly I would think your 5D3 would do the job, have you thought about maybe adding something to your setup to improve the quality?  All I know is your average Joe probably can't tell a difference between the BMCC and 5D3, and if they can it's not big enough to make or break a sale.

That is everything I was worried about with the BMCC. Thank you for sharing your experiences. The biggest issue is gradability, and lack of DR with the 5D3. Not sure what else I could add... suggestions? I am even open to other camera suggestions for great DR.
Title: Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
Post by: JasonATL on March 07, 2013, 07:29:58 AM
The dynamic range of the BMCC is what I'm really excited about. I have a BMCC on order since the fall. However, axilrod brings up the key issues that I would be concerned with for real estate. Also, the wait with the BMCC is becoming quite frustrating. What has become clear to me is that they simply are not producing the BMCC in large quantities. Unless their production increases significantly over what it has been over the last 4 months, it seems that it might be a long-long time before people who order today receive their cameras.

You said that you are mainly concerned about the high DR shots in which you have plenty of time to set it up. Here's an off-the-wall idea. Get a slider (you probably have one already) with a very good motion control unit. Shoot the same shot at two exposures with your 5D3. Edit the footage together to have the "out the window" shot from the lower exposure and the interior from the higher exposure. HDR video.

Title: Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
Post by: Cgdillan on March 07, 2013, 12:32:03 PM
The dynamic range of the BMCC is what I'm really excited about. I have a BMCC on order since the fall. However, axilrod brings up the key issues that I would be concerned with for real estate. Also, the wait with the BMCC is becoming quite frustrating. What has become clear to me is that they simply are not producing the BMCC in large quantities. Unless their production increases significantly over what it has been over the last 4 months, it seems that it might be a long-long time before people who order today receive their cameras.

You said that you are mainly concerned about the high DR shots in which you have plenty of time to set it up. Here's an off-the-wall idea. Get a slider (you probably have one already) with a very good motion control unit. Shoot the same shot at two exposures with your 5D3. Edit the footage together to have the "out the window" shot from the lower exposure and the interior from the higher exposure. HDR video.

That's a good idea. I already have the konova slider. I could get the motion controller for it and do exactly that.
Title: Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
Post by: cayenne on March 07, 2013, 03:05:46 PM
Interesting.
I was thinking at some time in the future getting one of the BlackMagic cameras to experiment with, but this one looks interesting too...The Bolex 16MM Digital camera...not sure how much longer they're available readily, but seemed an interesting camera..shoots raw, etc. I think the RAW files would be smaller and easier to deal with?

http://www.digitalbolex.com/products/bolex-d16/ (http://www.digitalbolex.com/products/bolex-d16/)

They were a kickstarter thing, I think they made quite an impression on people and are working on them now...so, if you didn't have to buy right away, might give them time, and also, see if BM has any improvements.
Title: Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
Post by: Plaid Zebra Films on March 07, 2013, 07:56:18 PM
I am in your same boat right now as I am opening a video production company this month in Sacramento, CA and I am going with a C100. I also have a 5d Mkiii that I have been using which impacts my decision.

These are my main reasons.

1. Lens choice.
I would need a whole different set of lenses for a BMCC than my 5D because the difference in crop is crazy between the two. Switching between FF and a 2.3 Crop is crazy. I also LOVE Zeiss lenses and although the 15mm Zeiss is nice, it costs 3k and still would only give me a 35mm FOV on a BMCC. The 1.6 crop of a C100 is really a good balance with a full frame B Cam.

2. Form Factor
The BMCC requires a lot rigging. I don't like rigging. It's intimidating to the clients and talent in front of it and therefore you get worse performances and interviews. I also do a lot of run and gun event videography and rigging slows you down and limits your creativity. The form factor of the C100 is awesome. Just a little bigger than my 5D but smaller than the C300.

3. Reliability
The BMCC is not terribly stable. From what I have read and been told, it's not a great professional Camera because you can't trust it with being your A Cam on a paid production. If its a creative piece, its great. You can redo a shot if some setting is off or defect happens. On a processional gig that will cause a lot of problems. I need to trust the tools I use. I make my living off them.

Hope this helps!
Title: Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
Post by: Cgdillan on March 07, 2013, 10:51:50 PM
Yeah... I think it sounds like I will be going with the c100... I was hoping the raw would make it worth the trouble. But it sounds like the raw aspect of it alone is an issue that would be difficult to work with. And I'm not a huge fan of the lens choices on BMCC.. Thanks for your input guys! It really helps a lot.
Title: Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
Post by: Normalnorm on March 08, 2013, 01:59:39 AM
Addressing only the DR issue I would think that you may be expecting a bit much from the BMCC. While I am sure the file quality is excellent you may find that the DR is still insufficient to hold detail in windows.
We usually gelled windows with ND and lit the interiors to get that naturalistic look with film and that is still done with video today in productions that will pay for it.
We do still HDR because we want a fast and inexpensive solution to the problem of DR challenged scenes but a few good lights and some time and testing will get better results. However I know that time is money and our clients are not to lavish with either.
Title: Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
Post by: Cgdillan on March 08, 2013, 01:32:28 PM
Addressing only the DR issue I would think that you may be expecting a bit much from the BMCC. While I am sure the file quality is excellent you may find that the DR is still insufficient to hold detail in windows.
We usually gelled windows with ND and lit the interiors to get that naturalistic look with film and that is still done with video today in productions that will pay for it.
We do still HDR because we want a fast and inexpensive solution to the problem of DR challenged scenes but a few good lights and some time and testing will get better results. However I know that time is money and our clients are not to lavish with either.

Exactly. I'm trying to find the best way to get better results without needing to charge much more than I do now.
Title: Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
Post by: Policar on March 10, 2013, 12:30:42 PM
The C100 is an AMAZING camera. Very underrated. Awesome image and interface. It's closer to the Alexa than to the 5D Mark III. Resolution is great, colors are beautiful (if warmer/less accurate/more subjective than the Alexa, they're certainly way better than Red), and the interface and ergonomics are great and the battery lives forever. It's the prefect owner/operator cinema camera. One person can use it easily and yet the image quality is approaching other high end cinema cameras. It can be set to intercut with dSLRs, or used as a b-cam for the Alexa with an uncompressed recorder. WideDR mode has Canon Log levels of DR but in a linear space. The specs (AVCHD/8bit, etc.) are poor, but despite that it's great. It uses superwhites (watch these in post) and a wonky log curve to retain decent tonality despite the poor spec.

That said, DR is still not the C100's strength. It blows away dSLRs but it is not as good as the Alexa, F3 (though only a half stop away, though, from the F3 with slog and ACHD beats XDCAM, seriously), or Red with HDRx (it's, imo, on par with Red without HDRx, maybe better). Really only the Alexa has amazing DR out of the box. I haven't used the BMCC but my guess is it's decent, maybe better than the C100 in this regard.

The question boils down to if you want to do more work but have more control (BMCC), like if this were your hobby or if you wanted to do less work but have to do it right int he fist place (C100). It reminds me of the "pros shoot JPEG" mentality, but that's kind of how it is. The C100 can provide gorgeous footage but you need to be a competent shooter. With RAW you can do all sorts of dumb stuff (overexposure, WB shift) and salvage it in post, but that's so much more work.

In normally lit rooms during the day it holds highlights out the window way better than a dSLR, but worse than the Alexa. You might need to turn some lights on (bring in daylight balanced CFLs or something) or choose your angle and exposure carefully, but if you're a competent shooter it will blow away your dSLR. Unfortunately it's superior more for tonality, noise structure, reduced skew, color, etc. than for DR, but nonetheless it's in a whole other league from dSLRs without being more difficult to use. Love this camera.

Title: Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
Post by: HurtinMinorKey on March 10, 2013, 02:59:38 PM
I think the c100 could make your life a lot easier, but if you are really looking the biggest jump in IQ over your existing setup, i'd say the clear winner is BMC.

The pains of working with RAW are real, but being able to make the image look exactly like you want it too, without worrying about losing detail or banding, is a huge advantage.

But think about it this way,  even if you had to buy a brand new workstation to handle raw....

$3000 BMC + $3000 workstation< c100
Title: Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
Post by: Policar on March 10, 2013, 03:54:14 PM
I think the c100 could make your life a lot easier, but if you are really looking the biggest jump in IQ over your existing setup, i'd say the clear winner is BMC.

The pains of working with RAW are real, but being able to make the image look exactly like you want it too, without worrying about losing detail or banding, is a huge advantage.

But think about it this way,  even if you had to buy a brand new workstation to handle raw....

$3000 BMC + $3000 workstation< c100

Have you used either camera?
Title: Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
Post by: JasonATL on March 16, 2013, 10:33:01 AM
I just received my BMCC earlier this week (thanks, Adorama!). I thought I'd revisit this thread with some thoughts after playing around with the camera and its files a little. These are still quite initial impressions - so it is FWIW, as always.

First, I am blown away at the dynamic range. Just playing around with the camera, I was taking a few shots of my wife in our kitchen during midday. The kitchen had no lights on - just what was coming in through the windows. I exposed to for the highlights (out the window) and indoor details were still discernible. Not well-exposed, mind you. But, discernible. Far better than I'd ever get with the 5D3. So, I think this might accomplish what the OP intended with regard to having both out-the-window detail and (some) indoor detail. Cgdillan - if there are any specific shots you'd like me to try, I can do so (I learn more every time I use the camera).

Second, the color is just amazing. Colors are so spot on compared to what I'm used to with Canon DSLRs. Not that I hate the colors of the DSLRs. It is just that the skin tones and colors are more natural on this camera. Add to that the flexibility of the color grading using raw, and it really is great if you can stomach/afford the workflow.

Finally, the camera is heavy and bulky compared to even the 5D3. The "bulky" statement comes from the feeling that the camera is just not as balanced as I'm used to with the 5D3. But, it isn't meant to be. It is a cinema camera.

For the OP's question, my suggestion would be to rent one and try it. I know that Lensrentals carries it.
Title: Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
Post by: Cgdillan on March 16, 2013, 01:23:17 PM
I just received my BMCC earlier this week (thanks, Adorama!). I thought I'd revisit this thread with some thoughts after playing around with the camera and its files a little. These are still quite initial impressions - so it is FWIW, as always.

First, I am blown away at the dynamic range. Just playing around with the camera, I was taking a few shots of my wife in our kitchen during midday. The kitchen had no lights on - just what was coming in through the windows. I exposed to for the highlights (out the window) and indoor details were still discernible. Not well-exposed, mind you. But, discernible. Far better than I'd ever get with the 5D3. So, I think this might accomplish what the OP intended with regard to having both out-the-window detail and (some) indoor detail. Cgdillan - if there are any specific shots you'd like me to try, I can do so (I learn more every time I use the camera).

Second, the color is just amazing. Colors are so spot on compared to what I'm used to with Canon DSLRs. Not that I hate the colors of the DSLRs. It is just that the skin tones and colors are more natural on this camera. Add to that the flexibility of the color grading using raw, and it really is great if you can stomach/afford the workflow.

Finally, the camera is heavy and bulky compared to even the 5D3. The "bulky" statement comes from the feeling that the camera is just not as balanced as I'm used to with the 5D3. But, it isn't meant to be. It is a cinema camera.

For the OP's question, my suggestion would be to rent one and try it. I know that Lensrentals carries it.

That doesn't sound too bad. You just confused my decision a little bit more. haha. How do you feel the camera handles? picking your f/stop and shutter and ISO? Is it not as bad as some have made it sound? I really want to see a shot a bright sunny day with al the lights on indoor in any room, and in post, push the shadows way up and bring the highlights way down. I imagine I would expose more for the interior as its most important, but still under expose to be able to capture the exterior. If you were able to do that, that would really be awesome. do you think it's a camera that could be used on hand held glide cam? or is it too heavy? I will likely be renting one soon after hearing your thoughts. any suggestions on workflow for if/or when I rent it?
Title: Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
Post by: JasonATL on March 16, 2013, 03:24:49 PM
That doesn't sound too bad. You just confused my decision a little bit more. haha. How do you feel the camera handles? picking your f/stop and shutter and ISO? Is it not as bad as some have made it sound? I really want to see a shot a bright sunny day with al the lights on indoor in any room, and in post, push the shadows way up and bring the highlights way down. I imagine I would expose more for the interior as its most important, but still under expose to be able to capture the exterior. If you were able to do that, that would really be awesome. do you think it's a camera that could be used on hand held glide cam? or is it too heavy? I will likely be renting one soon after hearing your thoughts. any suggestions on workflow for if/or when I rent it?

Cgdillan - check your PM box. I rendered out my video from a few days back. I didn't want to post the quick video publicly, as it was of my messy kitchen!

I don't have any issues with how the camera handles as far as functionality. My understanding of this camera is that, unlike DSLRs, it effectively has only ISO 800. That is, it gets its full dynamic range at ISO 800 and the other ISO's push/pull from there, losing a stop of DR for each ISO. The other ISO choices (400, 1600, and 3200) do not affect the raw file (their only stored as metadata). Therefore, choice of ISO only affects how the image is interpreted before being compressed in the compressed formats (ProRes and DNxHD). Therefore, I don't plan on ever changing the ISO for raw shooting and will be reluctant to do so when shooting DNxHD.

I was pleasantly surprised by how easy it is to change f-stops. I think I was surprised because, prior to the latest firmware, the original release of the camera did not report the f-stop. The current firmware does report the f-stop (for all of my lenses, at least) and never failed. You just push + or - to adjust. There is an iris button that opens the aperture to the widest point before clipping the highlights. This is useful, since this camera benefits from exposing as "bright" (i.e., open, wide, much to the right,...) as possible, then pulling down the exposure in post to what you want it to be. This gives the cleanest image. Shutter is in angle (not speed), so it is a bit cumbersome. I use it at 180, but it is easy to change by going into the menu (not with buttons). Note: ISO and shutter are in the menu, f-stop is by hard buttons.

I haven't put it on my glidecam yet. If you have one that has a harness/body support, then it probably isn't too heavy. If you're strong, it probably isn't too heavy. But, it is heavy. I bet it would be fine on a glider with a lightweight lens (e.g., the Tokina 11-16) for short shots.

Workflow: I'm working this out myself. The workflow with DNxHD or ProRes are no different than what you'd do with DSLR footage. With raw, your first stop is something that handles the .dng files. Photoshop, Lightroom, After Effects, Premier Pro, or Resolve (others?). I've used Resolve and Photoshop. Resolve Lite is free and it handles these files fine. Open in Resolve, adjust levels and color correct, then render it out to a compressed format to cut/edit just as you would any other camera's files. The nice thing is, you can choose different formats (even 10-bit 4:2:2 or 4:4:4), allowing more color correction in your NLE, if you don't want to come back to Resolve. You can round trip back to Resolve if you like, giving you access to the raw files again. This is easy in Premiere Pro and Final Cut. Resolve is great and very powerful. I use Sony Vegas Pro, so I'm still working out some kinks (due to Vegas, I think). So, at best, there is one extra step in "developing" the raw files. You can add more steps for more fine adjustments or to suit your objectives. Having this flexibility is why I wanted and love this camera. And yes, you need SSD's and lots of storage. 5 MB per frame. A reasonably fast computer helps, too. Resolve Lite seemed faster on my machine than the full version of Resolve.

Just my thoughts after less than a week with the camera (and 6 months of anticipation).
Title: Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
Post by: DeltaEffects on March 16, 2013, 05:28:52 PM
It sounds to me like you want an increase in DR for shooting real estate vids with a large difference between window highlights. Have you seen this – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuhVZWaOVOY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuhVZWaOVOY)
You could continue using the Mk3 for a while, or at the least wait until NAB 2013, where some great new products may arrive.

Also, if you don't want to tolerate a long, post-heavy workflow and dislike rigs, go with the C100.
If you want the absolute best image quality/resolution and have lots of time to set up shots, go with the BMCC.
Title: Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
Post by: JasonATL on March 19, 2013, 09:13:06 PM
Cgdillan - here's what you requested. I set the iris on the BMCC so that the outdoors were not clipping (i.e., I exposed for the out-the-window shot). I raised the shadows in Resolve. My skills and bringing up the shadows and making this look decent aren't great, but perhaps this will help you decide whether to rent the cam to see for yourself.
http://youtu.be/QeJGcoc7UeY (http://youtu.be/QeJGcoc7UeY)
Title: Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
Post by: Axilrod on March 25, 2013, 02:24:35 PM
That doesn't sound too bad. You just confused my decision a little bit more. haha. How do you feel the camera handles? picking your f/stop and shutter and ISO? Is it not as bad as some have made it sound? I really want to see a shot a bright sunny day with al the lights on indoor in any room, and in post, push the shadows way up and bring the highlights way down. I imagine I would expose more for the interior as its most important, but still under expose to be able to capture the exterior. If you were able to do that, that would really be awesome. do you think it's a camera that could be used on hand held glide cam? or is it too heavy? I will likely be renting one soon after hearing your thoughts. any suggestions on workflow for if/or when I rent it?

It doesn't sound bad, and not to take anything away from his input, but it sounds like he pretty much just turned it on and pointed it around the house.  The camera handles like crap, it's really heavy and even with the handles didn't feel great.  Rent one and check it out, but make sure you try to edit some of the footage, even 60 seconds of footage and you'll see really quick what a pain it is.  Believe me I was as pumped about this camera as anyone and mine actually came in last week but I passed on it.  Might get the MFT in the future but there are just too many issues with the EF.

And some of the posters are giving excellent feedback on the camera itself, but I'm looking at the camera AND what you'll be using it for (which is arguably more important).  You're not doing occasional studio shoots, you're doing real estate videos, which means you'll be shooting a lot and very frequently.  Battery life would also be a big issue in your case, since the internal battery lasts maybe an hour.  Also consider that you won't be shooting real estate videos in 2.5K RAW, it's just going to slow you down way too much, so try and take that spec out of the equation and look at it as just 1080p ProRes.
Title: Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
Post by: HurtinMinorKey on March 25, 2013, 04:28:01 PM
And some of the posters are giving excellent feedback on the camera itself, but I'm looking at the camera AND what you'll be using it for (which is arguably more important).  You're not doing occasional studio shoots, you're doing real estate videos, which means you'll be shooting a lot and very frequently.  Battery life would also be a big issue in your case, since the internal battery lasts maybe an hour.  Also consider that you won't be shooting real estate videos in 2.5K RAW, it's just going to slow you down way too much, so try and take that spec out of the equation and look at it as just 1080p ProRes.

It won't slow you down too much if you have the hardware to handle it. The hardware is not cheap, but neither is the c100.  But if you try to cheap out on the hardware, RAW will make your workflow miserable if not impossible. 

Why are you not not considering the 5D3? I feel like the only reason i would get a c100 is if i was going to do documentary stuff where i needed to handle tons of footage, run and gun,  and not have to worry too much about low light performance. 
Title: Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
Post by: JasonATL on March 25, 2013, 06:53:12 PM
The camera handles like crap, it's really heavy and even with the handles didn't feel great.  Rent one and check it out, but make sure you try to edit some of the footage, even 60 seconds of footage and you'll see really quick what a pain it is.  Believe me I was as pumped about this camera as anyone and mine actually came in last week but I passed on it.  Might get the MFT in the future but there are just too many issues with the EF.

And some of the posters are giving excellent feedback on the camera itself, but I'm looking at the camera AND what you'll be using it for (which is arguably more important).  You're not doing occasional studio shoots, you're doing real estate videos, which means you'll be shooting a lot and very frequently.  Battery life would also be a big issue in your case, since the internal battery lasts maybe an hour.  Also consider that you won't be shooting real estate videos in 2.5K RAW, it's just going to slow you down way too much, so try and take that spec out of the equation and look at it as just 1080p ProRes.

Fair points, all. I don't find raw as cumbersome as you seemed to. Perhaps my two-year-old machine is faster than the one you had available. The dynamic range of this camera still shows in the 10-bit 4:2:2 encoded files. Again, ProRes or DNxHD puts little extra burden on the workflow than the C100. Perhaps a bit more storage space, but with a benefit.

You point about the camera handling different than a proper video cam or a DSLR is also fair. It is clunky. A shoulder rig, slider, or tripod are a must. Whether Cgdillan uses these anyway is something he must consider.

Curious as to what issues the MFT version overcomes for you, given the issues you claim of the camera? None of those issues are changed in the MFT version. Is it just that the extra benefits of the MFT lenses (e.g., wider and/or faster) helps to further justify putting up with the costs you cite? I can understand that. Otherwise, you seemed very negative on the camera for certain reasons, only then to say that you might get one again in the future when none of those issues will be addressed.

In the end, I agree with you Axilrod. For a day-in, day-out workhorse (perhaps closer to run'n'gun), these issues might outweigh the image. A camera must be practical for its purpose. That's why my initial reaction to the OP was quite negative on the issue. Until I saw what I saw on my monitor. I'm just in love with the image this camera produces.
Title: Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
Post by: Cgdillan on March 25, 2013, 08:39:47 PM
The camera handles like crap, it's really heavy and even with the handles didn't feel great.  Rent one and check it out, but make sure you try to edit some of the footage, even 60 seconds of footage and you'll see really quick what a pain it is.  Believe me I was as pumped about this camera as anyone and mine actually came in last week but I passed on it.  Might get the MFT in the future but there are just too many issues with the EF.

And some of the posters are giving excellent feedback on the camera itself, but I'm looking at the camera AND what you'll be using it for (which is arguably more important).  You're not doing occasional studio shoots, you're doing real estate videos, which means you'll be shooting a lot and very frequently.  Battery life would also be a big issue in your case, since the internal battery lasts maybe an hour.  Also consider that you won't be shooting real estate videos in 2.5K RAW, it's just going to slow you down way too much, so try and take that spec out of the equation and look at it as just 1080p ProRes.

Fair points, all. I don't find raw as cumbersome as you seemed to. Perhaps my two-year-old machine is faster than the one you had available. The dynamic range of this camera still shows in the 10-bit 4:2:2 encoded files. Again, ProRes or DNxHD puts little extra burden on the workflow than the C100. Perhaps a bit more storage space, but with a benefit.

You point about the camera handling different than a proper video cam or a DSLR is also fair. It is clunky. A shoulder rig, slider, or tripod are a must. Whether Cgdillan uses these anyway is something he must consider.

Curious as to what issues the MFT version overcomes for you, given the issues you claim of the camera? None of those issues are changed in the MFT version. Is it just that the extra benefits of the MFT lenses (e.g., wider and/or faster) helps to further justify putting up with the costs you cite? I can understand that. Otherwise, you seemed very negative on the camera for certain reasons, only then to say that you might get one again in the future when none of those issues will be addressed.

In the end, I agree with you Axilrod. For a day-in, day-out workhorse (perhaps closer to run'n'gun), these issues might outweigh the image. A camera must be practical for its purpose. That's why my initial reaction to the OP was quite negative on the issue. Until I saw what I saw on my monitor. I'm just in love with the image this camera produces.

These are all great points to mention. I've been using my 5D3 for all my video work and for RE video i've been really feeling like I need more DR in my videos. I could care less about the 2.5K since the video will be probably viewed at 720p through vimeo. But the raw codec and extra DR I believe would greatly help my image, as well as my pride in my work. I was pretty turned off at first with all the "issues" the BMCC has, but I have totally fallen for the image it produces. I generally use Tripod, Glidecam, and Slider for stabilizations in my RE videos. I downloaded some test footage from the camera and FCP X actually took the .dng files in there native form wonderfully and the rendered extremely fast. I was very impressed. So I'm thinking towards the BMCC now over the C100 (I was thinking C100 over 5d3 for the extra dr and sharper image) as long as I can get in the house, shoot the proper exposure for each room, and get out. Usually takes about an hour to shoot a house up to 3,500 SF.
Title: Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
Post by: Cgdillan on March 25, 2013, 08:41:39 PM
also, I dump the footage after the video is complete and the client is happy, so if i keep one 2TB hard drive on Thunderbolt or Esata then I should do pretty well with storage space shooting one house at a time.
Title: Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
Post by: cookinghusband on May 09, 2013, 04:42:15 AM
A lots of friends have choose the C100 because of its more managable file format, especially if you are using a Mac. Seems like the the codec for for Mac is not optimised for 4K or any thing other than basic 1920x1080x25p.

Also file size and storage will be a great problem. Frequently buying 3T/4T HDD to store my footage, and copy them back to the SSD internal disk for editing. USB 3.0 is just marginally usable, with thunderbolt have interchangability probelm between mac and Win.

My spare pocket money just run down the drain after buying the 1DC because I need to keep buying memory cards and HDD and upgrade my worksation and software to deal with the large fiel from 4K video
Title: Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
Post by: cayenne on May 09, 2013, 11:28:49 AM
also, I dump the footage after the video is complete and the client is happy, so if i keep one 2TB hard drive on Thunderbolt or Esata then I should do pretty well with storage space shooting one house at a time.

Hey, just wondering, if since the BM 4K camera was announced, and also the BM Pocket Cinema camera.....have you reconsidered going BM and getting one of these cameras?

Just curious,

C
Title: Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
Post by: Cgdillan on May 10, 2013, 03:59:16 PM
also, I dump the footage after the video is complete and the client is happy, so if i keep one 2TB hard drive on Thunderbolt or Esata then I should do pretty well with storage space shooting one house at a time.

Hey, just wondering, if since the BM 4K camera was announced, and also the BM Pocket Cinema camera.....have you reconsidered going BM and getting one of these cameras?

Just curious,

C

Yessir. I pre-ordered the pocket camera and will be using it with a Metabones Speed Booster and my Tokina 11-16mm f/2.8. I am also on the look out for a decent 1" c-mount super wide angle lens 5-7mm range.
Title: Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
Post by: cayenne on May 10, 2013, 04:58:07 PM
also, I dump the footage after the video is complete and the client is happy, so if i keep one 2TB hard drive on Thunderbolt or Esata then I should do pretty well with storage space shooting one house at a time.

Hey, just wondering, if since the BM 4K camera was announced, and also the BM Pocket Cinema camera.....have you reconsidered going BM and getting one of these cameras?

Just curious,

C

Yessir. I pre-ordered the pocket camera and will be using it with a Metabones Speed Booster and my Tokina 11-16mm f/2.8. I am also on the look out for a decent 1" c-mount super wide angle lens 5-7mm range.

Too Cool!!

PLEASE, do a post, maybe this thread, to give a report on how it all works,and of course, some footage.
:)

I'm looking to go this route too.
I didn't think the Speed Booster was out yet, or was that just for Canon lenses it isn't out for?
I'm trying to learn the differences and what I would need for the BMPC....I am a bit of a noob, and only know what EF focal lengths are like..not sure how to relate them to the lenses for MFT lenses...etc.

Thanks!!

c
Title: Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
Post by: Cgdillan on May 13, 2013, 07:06:33 PM
also, I dump the footage after the video is complete and the client is happy, so if i keep one 2TB hard drive on Thunderbolt or Esata then I should do pretty well with storage space shooting one house at a time.

Hey, just wondering, if since the BM 4K camera was announced, and also the BM Pocket Cinema camera.....have you reconsidered going BM and getting one of these cameras?

Just curious,

C

Yessir. I pre-ordered the pocket camera and will be using it with a Metabones Speed Booster and my Tokina 11-16mm f/2.8. I am also on the look out for a decent 1" c-mount super wide angle lens 5-7mm range.

Too Cool!!

PLEASE, do a post, maybe this thread, to give a report on how it all works,and of course, some footage.
:)

I'm looking to go this route too.
I didn't think the Speed Booster was out yet, or was that just for Canon lenses it isn't out for?
I'm trying to learn the differences and what I would need for the BMPC....I am a bit of a noob, and only know what EF focal lengths are like..not sure how to relate them to the lenses for MFT lenses...etc.

Thanks!!

c

The speed booster was announced, but is not available yet for MFT and Canon combo. Basically, if you have a FF canon camera and you adapt your lenses to the BMPCC, just multiply your lens "mm" by three. That how tight the lens will be. so a 100mm lens on a FF Canon camera is 100mm but on the pocket camera it would look like a 300mm. and with the speed booster is would look like a 200mm.

Now due to some very unexpected news, releases, and possibilities from magic lantern in the last week, my BMPCC is in danger of being cancelled. Magic Lantern has announced their ability of recording 24p continuos RAW video to CF cards on the 5D mkIII with likely no heat issues. If they get this stabilized, then I may be sticking to my 5D mkIII for my RE video work and canceling my black magic pre-order. We shall see what ML brings us. The way I see it, Magic Lantern has 2 months or so to polish up the raw video from 5d mkIII and win me back from Black Magic. I doubt there are any decent lenses sub $1K that would give me the quality I have with my 5d3 and bower 14mm. So to not have to invest further and just upgrade to better CF cards would be great!
Title: Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
Post by: kyswarts on May 13, 2013, 09:36:19 PM
These are all great points to mention. I've been using my 5D3 for all my video work and for RE video i've been really feeling like I need more DR in my videos. I could care less about the 2.5K since the video will be probably viewed at 720p through vimeo. But the raw codec and extra DR I believe would greatly help my image, as well as my pride in my work. I was pretty turned off at first with all the "issues" the BMCC has, but I have totally fallen for the image it produces. I generally use Tripod, Glidecam, and Slider for stabilizations in my RE videos. I downloaded some test footage from the camera and FCP X actually took the .dng files in there native form wonderfully and the rendered extremely fast. I was very impressed. So I'm thinking towards the BMCC now over the C100 (I was thinking C100 over 5d3 for the extra dr and sharper image) as long as I can get in the house, shoot the proper exposure for each room, and get out. Usually takes about an hour to shoot a house up to 3,500 SF.

You already have the camera you need!  Magic Lantern does HDR video on the 5D3 and they just announced RAW capabilities on 5D3 and possibly 5D2....  don't spend the extra money.  Check out this ML HDR tutorial:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuhVZWaOVOY#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuhVZWaOVOY#ws)

If you need to see HDR footage from the 5D3 look here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjtGenTSfX8#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjtGenTSfX8#ws)


And finally check out this week's announcement concerning RAW capabilities with the 5D3:

http://www.eoshd.com/content/10324/big-news-hands-on-with-continuous-raw-recording-on-canon-5d-mark-iii (http://www.eoshd.com/content/10324/big-news-hands-on-with-continuous-raw-recording-on-canon-5d-mark-iii)

Also you can check out alex4d who has created a generator to make the workflow in FCPX really easy with ML HDR files:

http://alex4d.wordpress.com/2012/01/03/ml-u-hdr-compose-fcpx-plug-in/ (http://alex4d.wordpress.com/2012/01/03/ml-u-hdr-compose-fcpx-plug-in/)
Title: Re: Help deciding between BMCC and C100 for RE Listing Videos
Post by: cayenne on May 14, 2013, 10:08:09 AM
also, I dump the footage after the video is complete and the client is happy, so if i keep one 2TB hard drive on Thunderbolt or Esata then I should do pretty well with storage space shooting one house at a time.

Hey, just wondering, if since the BM 4K camera was announced, and also the BM Pocket Cinema camera.....have you reconsidered going BM and getting one of these cameras?

Just curious,

C

Yessir. I pre-ordered the pocket camera and will be using it with a Metabones Speed Booster and my Tokina 11-16mm f/2.8. I am also on the look out for a decent 1" c-mount super wide angle lens 5-7mm range.

Too Cool!!

PLEASE, do a post, maybe this thread, to give a report on how it all works,and of course, some footage.
:)

I'm looking to go this route too.
I didn't think the Speed Booster was out yet, or was that just for Canon lenses it isn't out for?
I'm trying to learn the differences and what I would need for the BMPC....I am a bit of a noob, and only know what EF focal lengths are like..not sure how to relate them to the lenses for MFT lenses...etc.

Thanks!!

c

The speed booster was announced, but is not available yet for MFT and Canon combo. Basically, if you have a FF canon camera and you adapt your lenses to the BMPCC, just multiply your lens "mm" by three. That how tight the lens will be. so a 100mm lens on a FF Canon camera is 100mm but on the pocket camera it would look like a 300mm. and with the speed booster is would look like a 200mm.

Now due to some very unexpected news, releases, and possibilities from magic lantern in the last week, my BMPCC is in danger of being cancelled. Magic Lantern has announced their ability of recording 24p continuos RAW video to CF cards on the 5D mkIII with likely no heat issues. If they get this stabilized, then I may be sticking to my 5D mkIII for my RE video work and canceling my black magic pre-order. We shall see what ML brings us. The way I see it, Magic Lantern has 2 months or so to polish up the raw video from 5d mkIII and win me back from Black Magic. I doubt there are any decent lenses sub $1K that would give me the quality I have with my 5d3 and bower 14mm. So to not have to invest further and just upgrade to better CF cards would be great!
I'm excited about this ML possibility too!

I have the Rokinon version of your Bower 14mm...very fun lens for a bargain price!!

I would like to try to break into the Real Estate video business, and I've been a big fan of your posts, VERY good stuff. I'm trying to learn by the C.A.S.E method (Copy And Steal Everything)...haha.

But seriously, I'm learning a lot from what you've posted, both posts and videos.

I believe we're in different parts of the US, I'm in the New Orleans area...so,we'd have no competion, so I was wondering if you had any advice on how to get started...what all equipment and processes you use...

I have a slider, an optonika (sp?) cheap-o steadi-cam....manfrotto monopod and tripod...and use FCPX for editing.

Do you use the 14mm a lot? What other lenses do you use? Are you using HDR (I think I recall a post or two showing you did, especially to help with keeping from blowing out highlights in a room from windows, etc).
Are you doing HDR video too?

Any advice or pointers welcome.

I have a couple of contacts in local realestate, but I wanna have my story together before approaching them. I might try to shoot a couple of friends' homes first to put an example video together.

What is the going rate for a real estate video shoot? Do you sign contracts keeping your rights to the video or do you sell those?

I'm also a bit of a techie...I was thinking of offering the videos to be hosted from my home business office servers...I have a business ISP account so I'm good to go on running servers, etc.

Anyway, any advice appreciated!!

Cayenne