canon rumors FORUM

Rumors => EOS Bodies => Topic started by: Canon Rumors on March 12, 2013, 08:17:19 AM

Title: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: Canon Rumors on March 12, 2013, 08:17:19 AM
Smaller than a Rebel?
Reports are out there that Canon may be working on a DSLR that is smaller and lighter than the current Rebel line. The camera would be an alternative to the EOS M line and possess all the DSLR performance you would expect, especially in the AF department.

We’ve seen some patents in the past that point to a smaller DSLR camera with an EVF. The only thing the camera probably requires is a certain depth to handle EF & EF-S lenses. It’s the first we’ve seen of it, but it’s definitely possible.

Source: [CW] via [DC]

cr

Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: TWI by Dustin Abbott on March 12, 2013, 08:20:11 AM
Interesting - although probably not for me.  Still, it would probably appeal to me more than the M just because of natively accepting EF/EF-S mounts.
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: CanNotYet on March 12, 2013, 08:29:50 AM
AHA! I knew this was coming. Basically a 1100D optimized (native) for EOS-M with EVF. Bring it!
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: pierlux on March 12, 2013, 08:36:49 AM
Is this guy possibly meant to be the replacement of the 1100D/T3? A smaller- & lighter-than-a-rebel DSLR would appeal to many owners of the bigger brothers as an alternative to rangefinder, mirrorless and compact cameras.

Maybe the first sign that the long coveted differentiation of Canon's APS-C line is finally coming.

As a new DSLR line, may this be the object of the forthcoming March 22 event instead of the 70D?

*edit* @CanNotYet: more or less what I'm thinking, but I don't know about the EVF, and don't believe it will have native EF-M mount, if that's what you mean, though.
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: Albi86 on March 12, 2013, 08:48:05 AM
Seems like a nice lightweight/travel solution.
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: Jokke_r on March 12, 2013, 09:04:07 AM
Would be pretty interesting if they could get it down to the size of about an old school manual focus SLR. No popup flash, no top lcd, somewhat smaller non flippy read lcd, no obvious grip area. It's possible, they would only need to be a little higher to fit the AF sensor below the mirror box.
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: zim on March 12, 2013, 09:06:16 AM
If it is much smaller than a Rebel then how will you hold it?

As well as an M I guess!

Sounds like they are on a much better track with something like that and they do need to develop EVF don't they.
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: miejoe on March 12, 2013, 09:06:58 AM
Could it actually have both DSLR-like AF and an EVF?

Doesn't the reflex mirror required for phase detection AF force you to use an optical viewfinder?

I don't see them mimicking Sony's SLT system. I guess they could use a translucent flip-up mirror, enabling both phase detection and a sort of live view at reduced brightness/sensitivity. Seems pretty far-fetched to me though...
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: lol on March 12, 2013, 09:11:41 AM
Even if we accept a minimum thickness due to the spacing of mount to sensor, a DSLR body could be much smaller. Look at compact film SLRs to see how small we might possibly go. We can save a bit of thickness by not having the display behind where the sensor is. If you go EVF, arguably you could ditch the main screen totally to help get size right down. But if you go EVF, to me that implies a Sony SLT like arrangement.
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: mws on March 12, 2013, 09:14:20 AM
If it is much smaller than a Rebel then how will you hold it?

Agree, I don't have huge hands, just a average guy and even with a grip on my 5D I wish I had more to hold onto.
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: facedodge on March 12, 2013, 09:15:24 AM
EVF with mirror doesn't make sense unless they are copying Sony. They'll have to move the sensor farther back to reduce thickness and I'm not sure if they can do that.

CR says there are ways it can be done. I would have been nice to link to some earlier stories on patents or something.
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: neuroanatomist on March 12, 2013, 09:22:39 AM
Could it actually have both DSLR-like AF and an EVF?

Doesn't the reflex mirror required for phase detection AF force you to use an optical viewfinder?

They could bring back the pellicle mirror, but angled the other way.  Actually, such a system (reverse-angled fixed mirror and EVF only) would remove the geometric limitation on AF point spread, in theory allowing phase AF points to cover a much larger area of the field...
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: KyleSTL on March 12, 2013, 09:33:38 AM
Could it actually have both DSLR-like AF and an EVF?

Doesn't the reflex mirror required for phase detection AF force you to use an optical viewfinder?

They could bring back the pellicle mirror, but angled the other way.  Actually, such a system (reverse-angled fixed mirror and EVF only) would remove the geometric limitation on AF point spread, in theory allowing phase AF points to cover a much larger area of the field...
+1

Does anyone see this rumor as being a future EOS 2000D-RT or something?
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: RC on March 12, 2013, 09:48:35 AM
If it is much smaller than a Rebel then how will you hold it?
Hmm, even the current Rebels feel too small for me.  When I pick up an old film body it also feels dinky, but back then we didn't know different.
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: CanNotYet on March 12, 2013, 09:58:22 AM
Yes, I DO mean native eos-M mount. Just to get the size down.

If it is much smaller than a Rebel then how will you hold it?

Ehm, how do you hold a g15? :)
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: c3hammer on March 12, 2013, 10:15:29 AM
Sounds like something similar to the Panasonic GH2 and GH3 only smaller and lighter.  If it has a new and upcoming APS-C sensor it could be huge winner for outdoor enthusiasts.

I have been a huge fan of the T3i with it's 3x crop mode for video for this very reason.  If they could make it even higher resolution, smaller and lighter with a 1 to 1 crop mode for video it would be a huge winner for wildlife videographers.

Here's the type of thing I've been using the T3i for.  Virtually all of this was shot at a 2880mm equivalent focal length !!!

Unobtanium on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/33169852)

Something smaller and lighter with the crop feature and a bit sharper sensor that uses existing Canon glass would be a godsend :)

Cheers,
Pete



Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: pierlux on March 12, 2013, 10:16:10 AM
Yes, I DO mean native eos-M mount. Just to get the size down.
It can't be a DSLR, then. Not enough room for a mirror.
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: unfocused on March 12, 2013, 10:16:51 AM
Why are people assuming it would have the same size sensor as a Rebel? Smaller sensor = smaller camera.
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: pierlux on March 12, 2013, 10:27:36 AM
Why are people assuming it would have the same size sensor as a Rebel? Smaller sensor = smaller camera.
A DSLR with a smaller sensor? Mmmh... Not going to happen, IMO. It's not the trend we've been noticing recently. Everybody is asking for bigger sensors in non-reflex cameras, but I've never come across anybody foretelling a smaller sensor in a DSLR in any forum.
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: Don Haines on March 12, 2013, 10:34:33 AM
Take a look at all the sales of micro four-thirds cameras..... There is a market and it would seem silly that Canon would not try for a share.
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: CanNotYet on March 12, 2013, 10:42:43 AM
It can't be a DSLR, then. Not enough room for a mirror.
Ehm, why not? There is still space between the mount and the sensor, yes? And we have no idea if they will use Sony setup with static semitransparent mirror, or some ingenious technical solution to move the mirror out of the way, or something else.

But, I admit that I would think a mirrorless version of this WOULD make more sense. :) Basically a SX50 sized camera with EF-M mount and EVF.
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: RAWShooter126 on March 12, 2013, 11:00:36 AM
So are they talking about a replacement for the 1100D or more like Nikon's new DX compact?
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: MrFotoFool on March 12, 2013, 11:01:24 AM
Would make a good companion for the 40 pancake lens, but not many other lenses.  Most would feel too big (just like most of those goofy four thirds systems, where the lenses are taller than the camera bodies).  Also, EVF viewfinder would be an instant deal breaker for me - I hate those things and would not even use one on a point and shoot.

But, throw in an optical viewfinder and introduce one or two more pancake lenses, and it could be a great high quality point and shoot camera.
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: RLPhoto on March 12, 2013, 11:05:09 AM
Canon just needs to fix the EOS-M. We don't need another line-up of cameras.
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: EYEONE on March 12, 2013, 11:11:04 AM
The new Canon 75000D
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: RAWShooter126 on March 12, 2013, 11:16:14 AM
Canon just needs to fix the EOS-M. We don't need another line-up of cameras.
Agreed. Though I have no interest in the EOS-M myself, it would seem to be a better business move from here. Personally though, I would rather see more new glass like something in the way of a spectacular wide angle to compete with Nikon's AF-S 14-24mm 2.8G or perhaps a sharper version of the 16-35, which is killed in sharpness by the now rather old 17-40 f4L for those who don't want a bulbous fisheye like front element
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: infared on March 12, 2013, 11:19:22 AM
So is this the m with a viewfinder?
Will it take M lenses as its prime mount?
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: RAWShooter126 on March 12, 2013, 11:33:21 AM
So is this the m with a viewfinder?
Will it take M lenses as its prime mount?
I would say doubtful. I think it's still meant to be a DSLR, in which case it would certainly have the EF mount on it, assuming it would still be an APS-C type sensor inside
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: RGF on March 12, 2013, 11:33:30 AM
A slightly larger than the G15 with EFV and interchangable lens - including an adaptor for EF/EF-S lenses?  I'd be interested if


1. Good and fast AF
2. Reasonable ISO (up to 800 or 1600 usable)
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: traveller on March 12, 2013, 11:50:34 AM
To all those stating that Canon couldn't possibly make the "Rebel" series any smaller:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/omd-em5/omd-em5A.HTM (http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/omd-em5/omd-em5A.HTM)

[scroll down to "Olympus E-M5 versus OM-1" heading]

That would be a "full-frame" 35mm film camera with an enormous pentaprism viewfinder and all the film transport gubbins (albeit, without the need for an LCD screen). 

Now compare:

http://camerasize.com/compare/#333,289 (http://camerasize.com/compare/#333,289)

You're all trying to tell me that it's not possible to make a DSLR smaller than a Rebel? Pardon me if I don't believe you. 

[P.S. OM mount flange back distance = 46mm; EF mount flange back distance = 44mm]
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: EchoLocation on March 12, 2013, 12:09:21 PM
why does this have to be entry level? why cant Canon make a full frame interchangeable lens camera with a form smaller than a DSLR.
I know some of you out there cant hold tiny cameras, but for me, walking or carrying a backpack for 8 or 12 hours in a day around town, or walking to work, traveling, size and quality is everything... along with quick and accurate AF.
Canon, please make this dream of mine come true.
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: pierlux on March 12, 2013, 12:19:28 PM
To all those stating that Canon couldn't possibly make the "Rebel" series any smaller:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/omd-em5/omd-em5A.HTM (http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/omd-em5/omd-em5A.HTM)

[scroll down to "Olympus E-M5 versus OM-1" heading]

That would be a "full-frame" 35mm film camera with an enormous pentaprism viewfinder and all the film transport gubbins (albeit, without the need for an LCD screen). 

Now compare:

http://camerasize.com/compare/#333,289 (http://camerasize.com/compare/#333,289)

You're all trying to tell me that it's not possible to make a DSLR smaller than a Rebel? Pardon me if I don't believe you. 

[P.S. OM mount flange back distance = 46mm; EF mount flange back distance = 44mm]
The OM-D is micro4/3. With dedicated lenses. I don't think Canon will go micro 4/3 in a DSLR for now.

Nobody's trying to tell it's not possible to make a DSLR smaller than a Rebel, in fact this thread is about a new Canon DSLR smaller than a Rebel. On a side note, the original Rebel/300D from a decade ago was roughly as large as the current FF 6D... For sentimental reasons I still have the 300D, the "black limited edition", which was offered with the grip in bundle. It was my first digital reflex camera.
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: RTPVid on March 12, 2013, 12:25:34 PM
If it is much smaller than a Rebel then how will you hold it?
...but back then we didn't know different.

Maybe you didn't...

(http://collectiblend.com/Cameras/images/Minolta-Minolta-SR-M.jpg)
(http://www.bobgraf.com/images/NikonF3HP-2.jpg)

In fact, the Olympus OM-1 was introduced with one of its major selling points being that it was smaller than the typical SLR.

It seems to be a DSLR enthusiast thing that small is bad.
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: traveller on March 12, 2013, 12:35:53 PM
To all those stating that Canon couldn't possibly make the "Rebel" series any smaller:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/omd-em5/omd-em5A.HTM (http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/omd-em5/omd-em5A.HTM)

[scroll down to "Olympus E-M5 versus OM-1" heading]

That would be a "full-frame" 35mm film camera with an enormous pentaprism viewfinder and all the film transport gubbins (albeit, without the need for an LCD screen). 

Now compare:

http://camerasize.com/compare/#333,289 (http://camerasize.com/compare/#333,289)

You're all trying to tell me that it's not possible to make a DSLR smaller than a Rebel? Pardon me if I don't believe you. 

[P.S. OM mount flange back distance = 46mm; EF mount flange back distance = 44mm]
The OM-D is micro4/3. With dedicated lenses. I don't think Canon will go micro 4/3 in a DSLR for now.

Nobody's trying to tell it's not possible to make a DSLR smaller than a Rebel, in fact this thread is about a new Canon DSLR smaller than a Rebel. On a side note, the original Rebel/300D from a decade ago was roughly as large as the current FF 6D... For sentimental reasons I still have the 300D, the "black limited edition", which was offered with the grip in bundle. It was my first digital reflex camera.

Did you take a look at the OM-1? I think you'll find that it isn't micro-4/3rds ::), yet it isn't a whole lot bigger than the OM-D EM5.  My point was, if you can make a 35mm film SLR similar in size to the OM-D EM5, you can certainly make an APS-C DSLR smaller than the Rebel.  Furthermore, it should be possible to make it without crippling the viewfinder or the handling (the OM-1 was no slouch in either regard). 

Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: pierlux on March 12, 2013, 12:56:36 PM
To all those stating that Canon couldn't possibly make the "Rebel" series any smaller:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/omd-em5/omd-em5A.HTM (http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/omd-em5/omd-em5A.HTM)

[scroll down to "Olympus E-M5 versus OM-1" heading]

That would be a "full-frame" 35mm film camera with an enormous pentaprism viewfinder and all the film transport gubbins (albeit, without the need for an LCD screen). 

Now compare:

http://camerasize.com/compare/#333,289 (http://camerasize.com/compare/#333,289)

You're all trying to tell me that it's not possible to make a DSLR smaller than a Rebel? Pardon me if I don't believe you. 

[P.S. OM mount flange back distance = 46mm; EF mount flange back distance = 44mm]
The OM-D is micro4/3. With dedicated lenses. I don't think Canon will go micro 4/3 in a DSLR for now.

Nobody's trying to tell it's not possible to make a DSLR smaller than a Rebel, in fact this thread is about a new Canon DSLR smaller than a Rebel. On a side note, the original Rebel/300D from a decade ago was roughly as large as the current FF 6D... For sentimental reasons I still have the 300D, the "black limited edition", which was offered with the grip in bundle. It was my first digital reflex camera.

Did you take a look at the OM-1? I think you'll find that it isn't micro-4/3rds ::), yet it isn't a whole lot bigger than the OM-D EM5.  My point was, if you can make a 35mm film SLR similar in size to the OM-D EM5, you can certainly make an APS-C DSLR smaller than the Rebel.  Furthermore, it should be possible to make it without crippling the viewfinder or the handling (the OM-1 was no slouch in either regard).

I said the OM-D is micro 4/3.

I've owned an OM 2n since 1980, then I added an OM 1n and an OM 3, many many Zuiko lenses and, over time, an insane number of accessories for the Olympus system. I've been shooting with them for 30+ years. I went for the Olympus system primarily because of the size and weight. I still have all of them, all in perfect order, I occasionally use them (actually the OM 2n, my preferred one), and I think I know them quite well. Still, I think you can't squeeze all the stuff needed for digital in an OM-sized body currently. Just as an example, an LP-E6 batt alone is about as thick as the OM 1 body itself. But, again, for sure I agree that you can certainly make an APS-C DSLR smaller than today's Rebel, though not as small as the OM 1 or the OM-D.
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: Dimson on March 12, 2013, 12:59:47 PM
i'm not sure i understand this completely...
on one hand you say "make a smaller DSLR with EVF"
on another hand making a camera with EVF will eliminate the need in mirror box and prism, effectively moving this camera out of DSLR category and closer to large ILC

i can understand the will to make the rebel line even smaller and appeal to those looking to advance from the compact P&S but fearing the size of an entry DSLR. but then, they can just do it and not introduce a whole new line

making an eos-m and rebel hybrid that would be placed in the middle is pointless imho and would only confuse people who have to make a choice


Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: moreorless on March 12, 2013, 01:02:34 PM
why does this have to be entry level? why cant Canon make a full frame interchangeable lens camera with a form smaller than a DSLR.
I know some of you out there cant hold tiny cameras, but for me, walking or carrying a backpack for 8 or 12 hours in a day around town, or walking to work, traveling, size and quality is everything... along with quick and accurate AF.
Canon, please make this dream of mine come true.

The 6D does seem to be looking to cater for a smaller FF body so I'm not sure we'll see something similar released in the next couple of years.

To me the most obvious gap in Canon's DSLR lineup seems to a be a high end but compact ASPC body akin to say the K-5, perhaps taken even further. Canon still seems to hold to the "bigger = better" line of marketing but I think were starting to see a change there with the likes of the NEX 7 and the XE-1. Of course bigger does equal better within those lineups but the higher end mirrorless bodies are I'd guess taking more of there market share from DSLR's than entry level mirrorless.

A Rebel sized(but nicer styled) body with say the latest sensor, 7D AF/FPS and metal/sealed build would IMHO do alot to combat this.
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: Don Haines on March 12, 2013, 01:06:53 PM
Along with last week’s 7D spec list, we also received what is said to be the next EOS-M camera. A lot of people haven’t jumped on the EOS-M system yet, whether it’s the bad rap the AF gets, or the lack of lenses in the system, sales are quite weak for the little EOS camera. Most people seem to want something a little bit higher end, or at least be able to add accessories to improve the usability of the camera.
Specifcations


24mp APS-C Sensor
New generation AF system
DIGIC V
Removable Electronic Viewfinder (Very high resolution)
Optional grip attachment
5fps
Slightly larger than the current EOS M
Introduced with 3 more lenses
$999 USD

Now, all of that sounds like pretty much everyones wish list, so take this CR1 rumor with a grain of salt. I will say that the next EOS M camera is definitely pointing to being higher end from other information we’ve received. An entry level EOS M system camera could be coming in early 2014 and sit in the sub $500 category.

Remember this from a month ago.......don't the two rumors seem a bit to close to not be talking about the same thing?
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: traveller on March 12, 2013, 01:15:30 PM

I said the OM-D is micro 4/3.

I've owned an OM 2n since 1980, then I added an OM 1n and an OM 3, many many Zuiko lenses and, over time, an insane number of accessories for the Olympus system. I've been shooting with them for 30+ years. I went for the Olympus system primarily because of the size and weight. I still have all of them, all in perfect order, I occasionally use them (actually the OM 2n, my preferred one), and I think I know them quite well. Still, I think you can't squeeze all the stuff needed for digital in an OM-sized body currently. Just as an example, an LP-E6 batt alone is about as thick as the OM body itself.

We're talking at cross purposes here, so I'm not going to continue down this road (I've culled the reply-counter reply chain, as it was getting ridiculous!).  You know better than most how small a 35mm camera can be made; do you not feel that the OM series feel more compact than the "Digital Rebels"? I can't see any reason why it would not be possible to make a DSLR this small (i.e. roughly comparible in size to the micro 4/3rds OMD EM-5).  I can understand your concern about the battery size, but I can't see that this would be any more of a problem with a DSLR than with a mirrorless body.  In fact, DSLRs tend to be less power hungry because they're not constantly running the sensor - LCD/EVF to provide viewfinding capabilities. 
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: mrsfotografie on March 12, 2013, 01:55:27 PM
Yes, I DO mean native eos-M mount. Just to get the size down.

I agree, seems logical with an EVF.

On that, I just got my NEX-6 today and am impressed with the EVF-aside from a little lag when panning and a little refresh flicker it looks surprisingly much like an optical viewfinder.

Yes, Canon you're too late with a good compact system camera, I just bought a Sony  ::).
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: bseitz234 on March 12, 2013, 02:35:51 PM
i'm not sure i understand this completely...
on one hand you say "make a smaller DSLR with EVF"
on another hand making a camera with EVF will eliminate the need in mirror box and prism, effectively moving this camera out of DSLR category and closer to large ILC

Not quite- prism, maybe, but you'd still need a mirror for PDAF. And while I'd be open to the idea of an EVF if the right one came along, you'd have to really sell me an SLR that only had CDAF.
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: pierlux on March 12, 2013, 02:38:11 PM

I said the OM-D is micro 4/3.

I've owned an OM 2n since 1980, then I added an OM 1n and an OM 3, many many Zuiko lenses and, over time, an insane number of accessories for the Olympus system. I've been shooting with them for 30+ years. I went for the Olympus system primarily because of the size and weight. I still have all of them, all in perfect order, I occasionally use them (actually the OM 2n, my preferred one), and I think I know them quite well. Still, I think you can't squeeze all the stuff needed for digital in an OM-sized body currently. Just as an example, an LP-E6 batt alone is about as thick as the OM body itself.

We're talking at cross purposes here, so I'm not going to continue down this road (I've culled the reply-counter reply chain, as it was getting ridiculous!).  You know better than most how small a 35mm camera can be made; do you not feel that the OM series feel more compact than the "Digital Rebels"? I can't see any reason why it would not be possible to make a DSLR this small (i.e. roughly comparible in size to the micro 4/3rds OMD EM-5).  I can understand your concern about the battery size, but I can't see that this would be any more of a problem with a DSLR than with a mirrorless body.  In fact, DSLRs tend to be less power hungry because they're not constantly running the sensor - LCD/EVF to provide viewfinding capabilities.
Traveller, maybe we're talking at cross purposes, in fact I've always ended agreeing that it is likely possible to further shrink a Rebel body, I've even edited the last post while you were typing to make this as clear as possible. But maybe not.  I do feel the OM series is more compact than rebels, that's doubtless, it's a fact. But, at present, an APS-C DSLR can't be as compact as a film OM or the OM-D, no way. You provided correct measurements for the flange-focal plane distances of the old OM system (46 mm)  and for EF/ EF-S (44 mm, in fact you can mount Zuiko lenses on EOS cameras with a cheap adapter 2mm thick), but you don't provide the distance for the OM-D, which is 20 mm, if I remember well. Therefore, in any case, at present the answer is that unfortunately it's NOT possible to engineer an EF/EF-S DSLR to make it as compact as, or comparable to, the OM-D. 24mm difference is roughly 1 inch, you can't put aside this fact. Don't feel offended, I insisted to make this clear, not to hurt you in any way.  :)
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: c.d.embrey on March 12, 2013, 03:43:04 PM
... to make the rebel line even smaller and appeal to those looking to advance from the compact P&S but fearing the size of an entry DSLR. ...

UK Fashion Shooter Jonathan Posner has stepped-up from Canon's Full Frame 5D2 to the M4/3 Olympus OM-D http://jonathanposner.tumblr.com/post/40780795719/my-olympus-challenge-10 (http://jonathanposner.tumblr.com/post/40780795719/my-olympus-challenge-10) To quote Jonathan Posner "Good enough for Vogue Italia, good enough for me."

There are a lot of seasoned professionals who are tired of lugging-around un-necessarly large/heavy cameras and their large/heavy lenses.

I'd be interested in a smaller EF mount APS-C camera with an EVF. Canon really needs to introduce some EF-S primes for use with this camera. A 22mm f/1.8 (=36mm FF) would be a good start followed by a 15mm f/1.8 (=24mm FF). I already have the EF 85mm f/1.8 :)
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: iaind on March 12, 2013, 04:09:35 PM
To all those stating that Canon couldn't possibly make the "Rebel" series any smaller:

http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/omd-em5/omd-em5A.HTM (http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/omd-em5/omd-em5A.HTM)

[scroll down to "Olympus E-M5 versus OM-1" heading]

That would be a "full-frame" 35mm film camera with an enormous pentaprism viewfinder and all the film transport gubbins (albeit, without the need for an LCD screen). 

Now compare:

http://camerasize.com/compare/#333,289 (http://camerasize.com/compare/#333,289)

You're all trying to tell me that it's not possible to make a DSLR smaller than a Rebel? Pardon me if I don't believe you. 

[P.S. OM mount flange back distance = 46mm; EF mount flange back distance = 44mm]
The OM-D is micro4/3. With dedicated lenses. I don't think Canon will go micro 4/3 in a DSLR for now.

Nobody's trying to tell it's not possible to make a DSLR smaller than a Rebel, in fact this thread is about a new Canon DSLR smaller than a Rebel. On a side note, the original Rebel/300D from a decade ago was roughly as large as the current FF 6D... For sentimental reasons I still have the 300D, the "black limited edition", which was offered with the grip in bundle. It was my first digital reflex camera.

Did you take a look at the OM-1? I think you'll find that it isn't micro-4/3rds ::), yet it isn't a whole lot bigger than the OM-D EM5.  My point was, if you can make a 35mm film SLR similar in size to the OM-D EM5, you can certainly make an APS-C DSLR smaller than the Rebel.  Furthermore, it should be possible to make it without crippling the viewfinder or the handling (the OM-1 was no slouch in either regard).

I said the OM-D is micro 4/3.

I've owned an OM 2n since 1980, then I added an OM 1n and an OM 3, many many Zuiko lenses and, over time, an insane number of accessories for the Olympus system. I've been shooting with them for 30+ years. I went for the Olympus system primarily because of the size and weight. I still have all of them, all in perfect order, I occasionally use them (actually the OM 2n, my preferred one), and I think I know them quite well. Still, I think you can't squeeze all the stuff needed for digital in an OM-sized body currently. Just as an example, an LP-E6 batt alone is about as thick as the OM 1 body itself. But, again, for sure I agree that you can certainly make an APS-C DSLR smaller than today's Rebel, though not as small as the OM 1 or the OM-D.

I still have OM 1,2 and 3 bodies and winders and a few Zuiko lenses. With a few mods it could be possible to
reconfigure the winder to a battery pack and incorporate a sensor FF or APSC.

Zuiko 50 1.4 is still in use with an EOS adaptor
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: bk-productions on March 12, 2013, 05:58:15 PM
Quite interesting. Maybe it's gonna be something like Panasonic's GH-Series with an APS-C sensor.
Title: Pentax 110 Auto from 1982
Post by: clicstudio on March 12, 2013, 07:01:27 PM
I had a Pentax 110 Auto back in 1984.
It was a real SLR with a set of 3 lenses. It was cute, small and useable.
I don't see why Canon can't make a small DSLR with unique interchangeable lenses.

Check it out

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentax_Auto_110 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentax_Auto_110)
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: pierlux on March 12, 2013, 07:33:39 PM
I still have OM 1,2 and 3 bodies and winders and a few Zuiko lenses. With a few mods it could be possible to
reconfigure the winder to a battery pack and incorporate a sensor FF or APSC.

Zuiko 50 1.4 is still in use with an EOS adaptor
They're so cute, aren't they? I've loved them, especially the OM2 n. Since I had a lot of glass, I purchased the OM to EOS adapter more for fun than for real need; on a 5D II, the old Zuiko lenses, compared to L glass, are light years apart in IQ.

[OT] Digitalizing an old OM? Only if a digital back existed, I don't see such a metamorphosis as a DIY thing. [/OT]
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: wickidwombat on March 12, 2013, 07:36:31 PM
Maybe it will be a retro style AE-1 lookalike beasty
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: thebowtie on March 12, 2013, 08:47:44 PM
Maybe it will be a retro style AE-1 lookalike beasty

Maybe what they want to do is channel the Leica M-series idea but with a Canon twist?
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: ddashti on March 13, 2013, 12:23:20 AM
Is a new DSLR line that vital in the current industry?
Seems somewhat far-fetched.
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: lopicma on March 13, 2013, 12:32:10 AM
I am still a big fan of this mirror-less, compact, SLR look-a-like camera (use the Panasonic G/GH series as a standard).  I would like to be able to use the lenses I already have, so if an adapter like that needed for the ES-M is required, I'm in....  I guess.
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: RGomezPhotos on March 13, 2013, 03:24:44 AM
Smaller than a Rebel?  We talking Kiddie Cams?  I'm interested what a smaller DSLR looks like and not be a point/shoot or 4/3 camera....
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: CanNotYet on March 13, 2013, 05:52:48 AM
Smaller than a Rebel?  We talking Kiddie Cams?  I'm interested what a smaller DSLR looks like and not be a point/shoot or 4/3 camera....
(http://)
Something like this? (excuse the lousy photoshopping :) )
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: ewg963 on March 13, 2013, 06:55:39 AM
Canon just needs to fix the EOS-M. We don't need another line-up of cameras.
Agreed. Though I have no interest in the EOS-M myself, it would seem to be a better business move from here. Personally though, I would rather see more new glass like something in the way of a spectacular wide angle to compete with Nikon's AF-S 14-24mm 2.8G or perhaps a sharper version of the 16-35, which is killed in sharpness by the now rather old 17-40 f4L for those who don't want a bulbous fisheye like front element
Agreed I would love to see a 14-24mm myself. :)
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: traveller on March 13, 2013, 07:26:52 AM

I said the OM-D is micro 4/3.

I've owned an OM 2n since 1980, then I added an OM 1n and an OM 3, many many Zuiko lenses and, over time, an insane number of accessories for the Olympus system. I've been shooting with them for 30+ years. I went for the Olympus system primarily because of the size and weight. I still have all of them, all in perfect order, I occasionally use them (actually the OM 2n, my preferred one), and I think I know them quite well. Still, I think you can't squeeze all the stuff needed for digital in an OM-sized body currently. Just as an example, an LP-E6 batt alone is about as thick as the OM body itself.

We're talking at cross purposes here, so I'm not going to continue down this road (I've culled the reply-counter reply chain, as it was getting ridiculous!).  You know better than most how small a 35mm camera can be made; do you not feel that the OM series feel more compact than the "Digital Rebels"? I can't see any reason why it would not be possible to make a DSLR this small (i.e. roughly comparible in size to the micro 4/3rds OMD EM-5).  I can understand your concern about the battery size, but I can't see that this would be any more of a problem with a DSLR than with a mirrorless body.  In fact, DSLRs tend to be less power hungry because they're not constantly running the sensor - LCD/EVF to provide viewfinding capabilities.
Traveller, maybe we're talking at cross purposes, in fact I've always ended agreeing that it is likely possible to further shrink a Rebel body, I've even edited the last post while you were typing to make this as clear as possible. But maybe not.  I do feel the OM series is more compact than rebels, that's doubtless, it's a fact. But, at present, an APS-C DSLR can't be as compact as a film OM or the OM-D, no way. You provided correct measurements for the flange-focal plane distances of the old OM system (46 mm)  and for EF/ EF-S (44 mm, in fact you can mount Zuiko lenses on EOS cameras with a cheap adapter 2mm thick), but you don't provide the distance for the OM-D, which is 20 mm, if I remember well. Therefore, in any case, at present the answer is that unfortunately it's NOT possible to engineer an EF/EF-S DSLR to make it as compact as, or comparable to, the OM-D. 24mm difference is roughly 1 inch, you can't put aside this fact. Don't feel offended, I insisted to make this clear, not to hurt you in any way.  :)

You're still missing my point! 

The comparison between the Rebel and the OM-D was made because I could find side by side comparison photos of them and I could also find side by side shots comparing the OM1 to the OM-D, but I couldn't find any shots comparing the Rebel to the OM1.  If you can find the latter, or are willing to photograph them yourself (assuming you own a Rebel), I would be most grateful if you could share the photo. 

When you compare the OM1 to the OM-D EM5 (sidenote: why not just call it the OM-D1?), the additional thickness caused by the mirrorbox is not all that great.  The bizzare thing is that small differences in overall dimensions don't seem to be as important in determining bulkiness as other design factors.  The OM1 and OM-D EM5 aren't that much smaller than the Rebel, but they both appear to be so (to me at least) because of their cleaner lines.  With prime lenses and careful design DSLRs needn't be anything like as bulky a system as they currently are. 

Perhaps Canon could make a smaller DSLR as a modular system (like the OM1 popularised back in the '70s), or even a modular  EOS-M series with hand/battery grip options and something like the Sony LAEA2 adaptor (with moving mirror and a pentaprism -go on Canon, take up the challenge!).  This latter option would be a good way of enticing EOS system users to buy into the EOS-M system as well: use EF-M lenses without the adaptor when you need maximum compactness, or swap in the adaptor, battery grip and EF(-S) mount lenses when you need performance (the elephant in the room is full-frame and whether Sony will make a full frame NEX stills camera...)
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: infared on March 13, 2013, 08:58:02 AM

OK I just read on another blog that this new camera will be a Rebel...so this is NOT a new line of camera for Canon, which has been reported widely on the web. This camera will be in the Rebel line of cameras.
That should calm down a lot of the speculation, and confusion.
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: EchoLocation on March 13, 2013, 09:39:33 AM
why does this have to be entry level? why cant Canon make a full frame interchangeable lens camera with a form smaller than a DSLR.
I know some of you out there cant hold tiny cameras, but for me, walking or carrying a backpack for 8 or 12 hours in a day around town, or walking to work, traveling, size and quality is everything... along with quick and accurate AF.
Canon, please make this dream of mine come true.

The 6D does seem to be looking to cater for a smaller FF body so I'm not sure we'll see something similar released in the next couple of years.
If the 6D is the smallest FF camera Canon makes in the next couple years I will be very disappointed. I don't understand why companies cant give the market a FF compact high end body on par with the M series but with AF. The M9 has been out for years already(4-5?) and no camera company can match anything like that yet? I'm about to just buy an RX1 and sell all my DSLR stuff. It's fun to shoot if I have a car and i'm just out for a few hours, but traveling or carrying a DSLR around all day, to work, on the bus, it's just too heavy to really enjoy it.
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: CanNotYet on March 13, 2013, 10:55:42 AM
OK I just read on another blog that this new camera will be a Rebel...so this is NOT a new line of camera for Canon, which has been reported widely on the web. This camera will be in the Rebel line of cameras.
That should calm down a lot of the speculation, and confusion.

Well, I guess it could be the 1200D, if they downsize it. The reason for speculation is the "new line" rumor.
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: Bob Howland on March 13, 2013, 03:21:14 PM
Canon just needs to fix the EOS-M. We don't need another line-up of cameras.

Agree 100%. This camera should be the prosumer/enthusiast M camera with the world-class EVF and greatly improved focusing speed.
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: pierlux on March 13, 2013, 09:23:51 PM
You're still missing my point! 

When you compare the OM1 to the OM-D EM5 (sidenote: why not just call it the OM-D1?), the additional thickness caused by the mirrorbox is not all that great.  The bizzare thing is that small differences in overall dimensions don't seem to be as important in determining bulkiness as other design factors.  The OM1 and OM-D EM5 aren't that much smaller than the Rebel, but they both appear to be so (to me at least) because of their cleaner lines.  With prime lenses and careful design DSLRs needn't be anything like as bulky a system as they currently are. 
Ah, now I get your point! I thought it was exclusively a matter of absolute bulkiness, but now it's clear to me it's more a matter of style and design. And yes, I would love such a camera from Canon, a retro styled APS-C or FF digital reflex. Actually I'm in for the Fuji X-100s, but a retro digital interchangeable lens Canon camera would be cool, many recent small EF lenses from Canon would fit it nicely. But you must admit your point was not that much evident in your original post. Maybe in a near future, when thinner OLED and compact sensor assemblies will be available, the thickness beyond the focal plane, previously being represented by the film and back only, won't grow too much, and such a camera may pop out, I'm sure it would be appreciated not only by you and I.

Perhaps Canon could make a smaller DSLR as a modular system (like the OM1 popularised back in the '70s), or even a modular  EOS-M series with hand/battery grip options and something like the Sony LAEA2 adaptor (with moving mirror and a pentaprism -go on Canon, take up the challenge!).  This latter option would be a good way of enticing EOS system users to buy into the EOS-M system as well: use EF-M lenses without the adaptor when you need maximum compactness, or swap in the adaptor, battery grip and EF(-S) mount lenses when you need performance (the elephant in the room is full-frame and whether Sony will make a full frame NEX stills camera...)

This, and our previous mention of batteries, made me meditate on a curious thing about grips, in that they first appeared as ugly, undesired but necessary bulges to house bigger batteries for the rapidly growing electronics and automation in cameras; I remember a well known italian photo magazine, in the pre-internet age, complaining for how uncomfortable the unusual feel of that "angulous" protrusion was. What can't be cured must be endured, thus hand grips evolved, and also the way we handhold cameras eventually, so today you have to purchase them as expensive accessories for those cameras which don't have an ergonomic grip (think of Leica) if you want to feel comfortable, because we're used to this feel which, indeed, is better. This is making a virtue of necessity, but don't you think it's a bit funny?

The comparison between the Rebel and the OM-D was made because I could find side by side comparison photos of them and I could also find side by side shots comparing the OM1 to the OM-D, but I couldn't find any shots comparing the Rebel to the OM1.  If you can find the latter, or are willing to photograph them yourself (assuming you own a Rebel), I would be most grateful if you could share the photo. 
Traveller, sure I can find an OM (except for the 4) because I've got the 1, 2 & 3, the problem is the Rebel, since the one I've got is the original one, the 300D (and this explains why I am interested so much in the forthcoming APS-Cs  :P), which is way larger and heavier than all the others from the 350D on, it wouldn't be a worthy comparison. Anyway, the link you provided shows them both, evenly scaled though not side by side, so a bit of cut & paste would do the job. Nevertheless, if you're interested in the unfair comparison anyhow, I'll be glad to snap the elephant and the gazelle side by side, it seems we share a common passion for this kind of stuff after all!  ;)
Title: Re: A New DSLR Line from Canon? [CR1]
Post by: Craig Richardson on March 15, 2013, 04:15:04 PM
My money is on:

OMD size, possibly retro looking, weather sealed
EOS M mount
APS-C sensor
On chip PDAF like Fuji X100s
EVF centrally mounted DSLR style
Physical controls, except for ISO
Rotating and flip large rear touch LCD