canon rumors FORUM

Gear Talk => EOS Bodies - For Stills => Topic started by: Hydrogen on March 21, 2013, 06:38:29 PM

Title: 5D2 refurb or new 7D as backup to 5D3?
Post by: Hydrogen on March 21, 2013, 06:38:29 PM
Note: I prefer feedback from those who have owned (or still own) a 5D2, 7D and 5D3.  Thank you.

Background: I own a 5D3 and was looking for a backup body as my 20D is a joke for a backup.  I am a Canon pro-sumer of eight years, turning part-time pro shooting family and couples portraits, events and looking to do weddings.  I also take pictures of my own family and kids playing sports.

My dilemma, which was resolved with the 5D3 is that I am a stickler for tack-sharp (using more than just the center AF point) pictures, but also demand a good IQ and a low-noise seeker.

So I just received a 5D2 refurb. from Canon Direct with 2,815 shutter actuations on it.  Judging by the date stamp on the main battery and the serial number, I am going to deduce that its a early to mid 2012 copy. 

The battery charger also looks to be a slightly older one with less refined looking labels/notations on it than the one that came with the new 5D2 I purchased in late December, but had returned, which looked identical to the one that came with my 5D3.

One thing that bugs me is the SET button on the back makes a slapping noise sometimes when you push it.  I forget if the previous 5D2 I used did same.  My 5D3 and 20D aren't like this.

If I return it for an exchange, I risk them not having one in stock when this gets back to them, I gather.

I know I will need a back-up body if I'm being paid for a shoot.  One that will produce great image quality, but I also want good AF.  The caveat is that once I shoot weddings or other indoor lower-lit events, I am wondering if the 7D is sufficient.  David Ziser seems to think so... http://bit.ly/9xEebV (http://bit.ly/9xEebV)

But I am concerned about the noise of the images and lack of another FF backup body.  I realize if its just a backup at say a wedding, the crop is "good enough" and I could mount my widest lenses to it for wide-angle shots in a pinch.

For sports and nature though - I am missing the reach of my 20D.

Oh, and I also want a camera that has good IQ, but isn't as expensive as my 5D3 to take with me on family trips/vacations.

Any thoughts/feedback?  Thanks.  I am tempted to just purchase a brand new 7D instead to go along with my 5D3.  Once you add sales tax to the Canon Direct purchases, I could save ~$300-400 if I got a new 7D.

Thanks
Title: Re: 5D2 refurb or new 7D as backup to 5D3?
Post by: wickidwombat on March 21, 2013, 07:08:39 PM
i'd probably say a 6D would suit better
I shoot with both 5Dmk3 and 5Dmk2 and I am really noticing the limitations of the mk2
side by side especially in low light

IMO the 7D is no way good enough the 6D will blow it away
Title: Re: 5D2 refurb or new 7D as backup to 5D3?
Post by: Hydrogen on March 21, 2013, 07:12:58 PM
Thank you for your reply, but the 6D is out of my budget for a 9/(11)-point, center-only cross-type AF system and I truly need to choose between a 7D or 5D2.  Plus, I don't care for the 60D-like simplified rear panel of the 6D.  Just does not suit my years of Canon EOS usage.
Title: Re: 5D2 refurb or new 7D as backup to 5D3?
Post by: wickidwombat on March 21, 2013, 07:22:49 PM
Thank you for your reply, but the 6D is out of my budget for a 9/(11)-point, center-only cross-type AF system and I truly need to choose between a 7D or 5D2.  Plus, I don't care for the 60D-like simplified rear panel of the 6D.  Just does not suit my years of Canon EOS usage.

definately the 5D2 then but just be aware iso 3200 is gonna be a ceiling with maybe 6400 at a push if you are gonna convert it to black and white, iso 3200 is pretty good especially when used with flash.
the 7D is about a stop behind that if you were going to get a 7D i'd say just get a T3i  (aka 600D for a ton cheaper IQ will be no different.
Title: Re: 5D2 refurb or new 7D as backup to 5D3?
Post by: bdunbar79 on March 21, 2013, 07:32:23 PM
I would agree that the 5D Mark II is the way to go for what you described, over the 7D.  If you want to shoot sports too, use the 5D3 for that.  As a backup though, the 5D2 makes a lot more sense to me.
Title: Re: 5D2 refurb or new 7D as backup to 5D3?
Post by: kennephoto on March 21, 2013, 07:50:42 PM
I bought a new 5d2 and I love it, I almost hate looking through the viewfinder on crop bodies now. I haven't owned or used the 5d3 but I really doubt the 5d2 would be worse than a 7d. I'm pretty sure people used the 5d2 for many weddings and got great photos, I've used the 5d2 at weddings and loved it, wish it had that silent shutter like the 5d3 though.
Title: Re: 5D2 refurb or new 7D as backup to 5D3?
Post by: Robert Welch on March 21, 2013, 07:52:34 PM
Having had all these cameras, currently using 5D3 with 6D as backup at weddings and the 7D sits in the trunk for dire emergencies only. The AF on the 5D3 and 6D is way beyond the AF of the older cameras, 5D2/7D. I know on paper, the 6D has very similar AF as the 5D2, but simply put it's way more precise and consistent. I just did a portrait session with the 6D and the 7D as a 2nd camera, shot well over 200 photos. 100% of the 6D images were tack sharp, perfect focus. 22% of the 7D images were just not there at all, and more were just a little soft. I found the 5D2 to be about 80-90% accurate with the center point only focus, worse with the others. If you use the 6D with the outside focus point, then you'll see a little bit of loss of consistency. But that center point is the best AF point Canon has ever made, period.

I know the OP question didn't include the 6D, and understand his reasons. But, if you want to be a serious professional photographer, and it sounds like you do, using older equipment like 7D & 5D2 is not a wise compromise. I would say the 20D is really not that far behind either of those cameras as a backup, until you can get a 6D (it is obviously not as good for high ISO as either, but the AF is just as good). I would wait until you can afford a 6D at least, spending the money on a 7D/5D2 will only be wasting your time for getting what you really should be using, either a 6D or another 5D3. The only other camera that might be worth considering would be a good copy of a 1DmkIII, I have one and it's AF is somewhere between the 7D & 5D3 in terms of accuracy and consistency. And the used market on these is probably closer to what your current budget is, and it's high ISO capability is somewhere between the 7D & 5D3, IMO. However, being sure you get one that does have good AF is the tricky part. Good luck
Title: Re: 5D2 refurb or new 7D as backup to 5D3?
Post by: shashinkaman on March 21, 2013, 08:01:37 PM
As per usual, CR folks go for the typical solutions... I (some one actually shooting for a living, not an armchair photographer!) would suggest giving the Eos 7D a closer look! Ignore the b.s. about ISO performance - pixel peeping nonsense, and think about the following: it is a great little camera (leave the grip off!) has all the features and power you need, especially as a semi-pro and the 1,6 crop factor makes a very interesting combination with an FF or 1,3 crop factor body! Your 130mm on your Eos 5D becomes a '210'mm on your Eos 7D! Your wide-zoom (just an example) 16-35mm becomes a normal-zoom '28-60'mm etc. Really convenient how you can limit the number of lenses your carry around if you select smartly! And like I said, I work in Japan (sorry if I made any mistakes writing in English here!) and I have to meet the first client who doesn't accepts my pictures because he / she can tell the difference between my Eos 1D series or the Eos 7D series... Pixel Peepers  >:(
Title: Re: 5D2 refurb or new 7D as backup to 5D3?
Post by: shashinkaman on March 21, 2013, 08:09:12 PM
PS: You could of course do as most on this site would: sit on your derriere behind your computer, not shooting much if at all and wait for the Eos 7D MarkII to appear... No, seriously, when I read comments like "no compromise buying "old equipment" then I just laugh and know: another wanna be! Maybe the pro scene here in Japan is not as 'advanced' as in the States, but you would be surprised how many Eos 7D's you see in the bag of many a PRO! Get yourself one and shoot away!
Title: Re: 5D2 refurb or new 7D as backup to 5D3?
Post by: funkboy on March 21, 2013, 08:33:07 PM
I'd say use a 6D as a backup unless you also want a camera for sports or other telephoto/action type shooting (like birding).

But if you're looking for something with equivalent crop factor and IQ to your 5D3 then the 6D is the way to go.

Of course I'm a bit biased...
Title: Re: 5D2 refurb or new 7D as backup to 5D3?
Post by: Krob78 on March 21, 2013, 08:43:41 PM
I have both, the 5D3 and the 7D.  I thought I would sell the 7D after getting the 5D3.  I haven't.  I still love it!  I still use it!  I still reach for it when I need the extra reach, it's a fantastic camera and an amazing tool. 

That being said, I use it less and less as the days go by.  I love my 5D3!  As my techniques improve and my human interface with the camera interface merges together, I love it more and more.  If I sell the 7d, it will only be because I need money or the 7D2 has finally hit the market and is amazing and has been out for about a year... then I'd pull the trigger on that... possibly. 

I think I'll have my 5D3 for a long, long time...  the images somehow just have a slightly more wonderful look to them... with good lighting the 7d can go anywhere too, with good lighting... The OP says he likes wildlife and sports photography as well.  The 5D3 is great for that but so is the 7D.  I love the 8fps on my 7d, I am not at all in love with only 6fps on the 5d3.  I definitely see the difference and see images missed due to not having those 2 extra frames...

Hard choice for sure, but both choices you've inquired about have their caveats and there take aways... figure out which feeds your need better and jump on it... don't look back, you may miss your next "money" shot! 

5d2, 7d, 6d, heck even the old 50D is still a great camera!  They're all good backups for your 5d3!
Title: Re: 5D2 refurb or new 7D as backup to 5D3?
Post by: aprotosimaki on March 21, 2013, 08:55:53 PM
My 5d2's set button does not make a slapping sound at all. I might be concerned about this and would attempt an exchange but I am a stickler by nature.

If Canon has another 5d2 then problem solved I would imagine, since you made the initial decision to get one.
If not, then a new 7d is not the worst decision; you get a new high quality camera that is different from your other one i.e. crop factor and you may find that useful.

Regardless, your hand is slightly forced in this case, or so it seems to me and the camera gods will decide for you. 





Title: Re: 5D2 refurb or new 7D as backup to 5D3?
Post by: hawaiisunsetphoto on March 21, 2013, 10:36:01 PM
You could possibly return the refurb, and either they replace it, or credit you.  If the latter, you can pick up a niced used 5D Mark II with relatively low actuations on ebay or craigslist.  That's the route that I took to help a friend get set up...   You should be able to find a used 5D Mark II in the $1000 - $1300 range....
Title: Re: 5D2 refurb or new 7D as backup to 5D3?
Post by: Chosenbydestiny on March 21, 2013, 10:47:45 PM
Lenses behave differently on crop compared to full frame. You probably want another full frame camera to compliment your 5D mark III. If a 5D mark II is all that can fall into your budget, there's nothing wrong with that. I've used all 3 cameras mentioned and to be honest, as much as I loved the 7D I used the 5D mark II more because of how the image results looked in the end. It's really just a question of whether you need the servo capabilities of the 7D more than the image quality of the 5D mark II. Both are great backups.
Title: Re: 5D2 refurb or new 7D as backup to 5D3?
Post by: wickidwombat on March 21, 2013, 10:48:36 PM
As per usual, CR folks go for the typical solutions... I (some one actually shooting for a living, not an armchair photographer!)

 ::)

8 posts in and you are the guru ? and many of us do actually shoot for a living too but you can continue to think you are the only one  ;)

enjoy your 7D
its a simple fact thats not too hard to grasp that the image quality from canons full frame cameras is significantly better than their crop cameras to date especially at higher iso
but you can continue to live in a long north african river if you like
Title: Re: 5D2 refurb or new 7D as backup to 5D3?
Post by: DCM1024 on March 21, 2013, 10:58:19 PM
I currently use 5d3, 2 5d2 and a 7d shooting Weddings. I also read what David Ziser said before I purchased the 7d. Based upon my experience over the past year, I would choose the 5d2 over the 7d. You probably should exchange or return the 5d2 refurb you purchased. Get a different refurb or you can still buy a new 5d2 from b&h. I prefer the iq of any of the 5d bodies to the 7d. Iso is also an issue. Good luck!
Title: Re: 5D2 refurb or new 7D as backup to 5D3?
Post by: jasonsim on March 21, 2013, 11:37:13 PM
I'd just keep the 5D2 or exchange for another.  As a backup, if your 5D III craps out during a wedding, you will still have another FF to continue with.  You won't have to think about your focus lengths and deal with the 1.6x crop.  The files coming out of the 5D2 are much cleaner than the 7D.  The 7D has great files up to about ISO 3200. Beyond ISO 3200 the 7D raw files get harder to clean up (noise reduction).  The 5D2 is much better in this respect. 

If you have a need to a second back-up body for doing something like sports or wildlife, then I'd recommend a 7D.

Kind regards,
Jason
Title: Re: 5D2 refurb or new 7D as backup to 5D3?
Post by: Hydrogen on March 22, 2013, 12:19:52 AM
Thank you to everyone for your comments and suggestions.

I gave the 6D another hard look.  Anyone who own it - is the lack of thumb-multipoint control tough to get used to?  I love the thumb multi-control.

Oh, something that bothers me about the 6D is the 1/4000th shutter, but even more so, the 1/180's X-Sync for flash/strobes.  That could be a problem as 1/200 is already rough.

I have a request in to my account rep. to see what they can do on the 6D.  After tax and shipping, the 5D2 refurb set me back $1,611.  B&H, Adorama, etc. w/out the tax implication, the 6D is presently $1,789.  If I can get them below $1,700 that's not going to be a tough decision (5D2 refurb vs. new 6D).

Actually, thinking out loud, I was considering adding a Mack warranty on the 5D2 refurb and that would make the difference far smaller.

I am impressed with the 6D's noise vs. 5D2.  Obviously, smokes the 7D.  The 5D2 'feels old' after using the 5D3 for almost three months now.
Title: Re: 5D2 refurb or new 7D as backup to 5D3?
Post by: Robert Welch on March 22, 2013, 12:28:48 AM
PS: You could of course do as most on this site would: sit on your derriere behind your computer, not shooting much if at all and wait for the Eos 7D MarkII to appear... No, seriously, when I read comments like "no compromise buying "old equipment" then I just laugh and know: another wanna be! Maybe the pro scene here in Japan is not as 'advanced' as in the States, but you would be surprised how many Eos 7D's you see in the bag of many a PRO! Get yourself one and shoot away!

I'm no "wanna be", been working as a full time wedding photographer since 2000, my comments come from the perspective of one who earns his lively hood selling images to other people.

The 7D isn't a bad camera, don't get me wrong. IQ is good, build quality excellent, would be nice to have 2 cards slots though. My biggest gripe with it is it doesn't have nearly as consistently accurate AF as it should. Take 10 photos with it, and most likely at least 2 of them will clearly out of focus, and a few others may be questionable. I had one, and thought maybe it was just a bad body, got another and it's a little better, but not much. The AF on that camera has some great features, but not the best performance. That is why I say it's not a great camera for a professional at a wedding to use. It's not a bad backup, and used to serve as my 2nd camera in fact, but it's not the best backup/2nd camera available today for a 5D3, the 6D would be that IMO. I would say for the OP, the 5D2 would be better as the center AF point on it is probably more reliable than the 7D AF, but neither is as good as the 6D. The OP mentioned he wanted to do weddings, and reliable AF is one of the most important considerations in the camera choice for a professional. That is why I said it's better not to compromise. Otherwise, if every shot isn't critical as it is in weddings, then the 7D may be just fine for your needs.
Title: Re: 5D2 refurb or new 7D as backup to 5D3?
Post by: Robert Welch on March 22, 2013, 12:43:01 AM
Thank you to everyone for your comments and suggestions.

I gave the 6D another hard look.  Anyone who own it - is the lack of thumb-multipoint control tough to get used to?  I love the thumb multi-control.

Oh, something that bothers me about the 6D is the 1/4000th shutter, but even more so, the 1/180's X-Sync for flash/strobes.  That could be a problem as 1/200 is already rough.

I have a request in to my account rep. to see what they can do on the 6D.  After tax and shipping, the 5D2 refurb set me back $1,611.  B&H, Adorama, etc. w/out the tax implication, the 6D is presently $1,789.  If I can get them below $1,700 that's not going to be a tough decision (5D2 refurb vs. new 6D).

Actually, thinking out loud, I was considering adding a Mack warranty on the 5D2 refurb and that would make the difference far smaller.

I am impressed with the 6D's noise vs. 5D2.  Obviously, smokes the 7D.  The 5D2 'feels old' after using the 5D3 for almost three months now.

I was worried about the same things you are when I decided to get the 6D, but I found things like the lack of multi-controller really weren't an issue when I started using the camera. My biggest problem is the FEC activation button is no longer on the top of the camera, as it has been on every other non-1 series body. But I changed the 'set' button to that function and have gotten used to it. Over all, the 6D is a nice 'handling' camera, don't over think it, just use it and you'll probably find it's quite well laid out with the controls in very usable configuration.

I am really impressed with the 6D IQ, and as a backup to the 5D3 it's really nice to use it and feel like my backup isn't inferior in IQ, especially at really high ISOs. I recently used the 6D at 25,600 ISO, and the results are actually rather good. The 7D/5D2 can't do that.
Title: Re: 5D2 refurb or new 7D as backup to 5D3?
Post by: archiea on March 22, 2013, 01:12:23 AM
I currently use 5d3, 2 5d2 and a 7d shooting Weddings. I also read what David Ziser said before I purchased the 7d. Based upon my experience over the past year, I would choose the 5d2 over the 7d. You probably should exchange or return the 5d2 refurb you purchased. Get a different refurb or you can still buy a new 5d2 from b&h. I prefer the iq of any of the 5d bodies to the 7d. Iso is also an issue. Good luck!

It depends on your needs:

get a 5Dii refurb if you are looking to have a 1:1 backup to your mark 3.  The IQ will be a lot more interchangeable.  Get a 7D if you need the high frame rate (Spray and Pray) or if you need the 1.6 crop.  Both those features are more for sports and wildlife photographers that can use the versitility of a 7D.  The only thing I can think of for wedding that a 7D can offer is better tracking for AF... but thats about it...
Title: Re: 5D2 refurb or new 7D as backup to 5D3?
Post by: funkboy on March 23, 2013, 02:10:25 PM
I gave the 6D another hard look.  Anyone who own it - is the lack of thumb-multipoint control tough to get used to?  I love the thumb multi-control.

It took some getting used to, but the multi-control thingy pretty much does the same thing as the old multipoint button does.  I must say I prefer the multipoint button but the 6D's setup is fine once you get used to it.  Switching back & forth between boides might take a little more patience though.

Quote
Oh, something that bothers me about the 6D is the 1/4000th shutter, but even more so, the 1/180's X-Sync for flash/strobes.  That could be a problem as 1/200 is already rough.

yeah, I have wanted to use 8k sometimes in bright light (my 40D could do it...).  I just push it down to ISO 50 instead & that helps a bit...  Haven't messed with flash much but at least they only took away a little bit of flash sync.  1/125 would be really annoying but 1/180 isn't too bad.  I understand why building an 8k FF shutter is hard, but I don't get why everything can't just do 1/250 flash sync though...

Quote
I am impressed with the 6D's noise vs. 5D2.  Obviously, smokes the 7D.

Yep, that's why I bought one.  This is really the first digital camera I've owned where I can really say that it easily handles whatever lighting conditions I throw at it.  I've been shooting MRAW the whole time so I don't have to go out & buy 2 more hard drives and the files work really really nicely in Lightroom.

One thing I have noticed is that you really need to turn off the "silent shot" drive mode if you're shooting longer exposures.  I haven't tested to see exactly where it starts, but so far at anything over about 1 second it doesn't get the mirror out of the way fast enough and 1/3 of the frame is black.  It's not really a big deal though, just something to remember.

I've also noticed that I really use the word "really" a lot when I'm tired :-)
Title: Re: 5D2 refurb or new 7D as backup to 5D3?
Post by: sdsr on March 23, 2013, 02:34:31 PM

I gave the 6D another hard look.  Anyone who own it - is the lack of thumb-multipoint control tough to get used to?  I love the thumb multi-control.

....

I am impressed with the 6D's noise vs. 5D2.  Obviously, smokes the 7D.  The 5D2 'feels old' after using the 5D3 for almost three months now.

It also feels old after using the 6D, though I'm not sure the results do in decent light (I tend to prefer the colors conjured up by the 6D & 5DIII too, which look a bit more realistic to me, though there's not much in it).  But much of this is rather subjective - I don't love the thumb control (not wild about pushing my thumb against that hard, rather sharp-edged plastic) and probably prefer the multi-thingy control pad on the 6D (+ front wheel for moving the focus point horizontally).  You won't know until you try it; you could always rent one and find out.  Either way, you might conclude that the 6D's superlative low light performance more than makes up for it.  (That said, having recently acquired an Olympus OMD, whose focus points cover almost the entire image, I'm finding the focus points on any DSLR I've used rather limited in that regard.)
Title: Re: 5D2 refurb or new 7D as backup to 5D3?
Post by: Botts on March 23, 2013, 02:47:54 PM
Thank you for your reply, but the 6D is out of my budget for a 9/(11)-point, center-only cross-type AF system and I truly need to choose between a 7D or 5D2.  Plus, I don't care for the 60D-like simplified rear panel of the 6D.  Just does not suit my years of Canon EOS usage.

You mention the AF performance and your need for tack sharp photos in several posts.  IMO that completely knocks out the 5D2. The 7D has phenomenal AF and great IQ if you are shooting with strobes when the light gets low, and not relying on high ISO performance.

I still miss my 7D for action, and am eagerly awaiting a 7D2 to pair with my 6D.  That said, the center point on the 6D beats the 7D for accuracy, but the only point on the 6D that does that is the center point.

One last consideration is focal lengths, you won't be near as wide with the 7D, but as you have a 20D I'm sure you've already experienced that.

Title: Re: 5D2 refurb or new 7D as backup to 5D3?
Post by: dtaylor on March 23, 2013, 03:46:31 PM
its a simple fact thats not too hard to grasp that the image quality from canons full frame cameras is significantly better than their crop cameras to date especially at higher iso

If this is such a simple fact, then why is it no one ever posts proof? In the 3.5 years since the 7D was released I have yet to see even one test that showed "significantly better" IQ from the 5D2 over the 7D through ISO 800. Even at 1600 and 3200 I would only call the IQ difference "significant" for large prints. (The 5D2 is usable at 6400 where the 7D really isn't, except for small prints or web shots.)

Lots and lots of posts claiming "it's a fact!" and "everybody knows it!"...but no pictures.

I've had both. I've made plenty of prints, including plenty of 16x20's. At low to mid ISO there's no difference that survives post processing.

Now that we have the FF hyperbole out of the way...for regular professional wedding work I would be torn. Weddings often present terrible light levels where every stop counts. Then again, having one crop and one FF body, and the right lenses, can really expand your range without having to change lenses. (I've shot with crop only and with both.)

I would lean towards one of each...depending on lenses...but I would not fault someone for choosing 2 FF bodies for wedding work. OP is going to have to weigh the non-work advantages (reach; speed) against the work situation (lens collection vs. low light).
Title: Re: 5D2 refurb or new 7D as backup to 5D3?
Post by: Hydrogen on March 23, 2013, 04:00:15 PM
its a simple fact thats not too hard to grasp that the image quality from canons full frame cameras is significantly better than their crop cameras to date especially at higher iso

If this is such a simple fact, then why is it no one ever posts proof? In the 3.5 years since the 7D was released I have yet to see even one test that showed "significantly better" IQ from the 5D2 over the 7D through ISO 800. Even at 1600 and 3200 I would only call the IQ difference "significant" for large prints. (The 5D2 is usable at 6400 where the 7D really isn't, except for small prints or web shots.)

Lots and lots of posts claiming "it's a fact!" and "everybody knows it!"...but no pictures.

I've had both. I've made plenty of prints, including plenty of 16x20's. At low to mid ISO there's no difference that survives post processing.

Thank you.  I agree with this.  I read review after review telling me to look at the difference in noise (even at low light levels) between the 7D and the 5D2 through ISO 800 and I just don't see a significant difference.  5% tops maybe?  Yes, higher ISO's things start to deviate.

Now that we have the FF hyperbole out of the way...for regular professional wedding work I would be torn. Weddings often present terrible light levels where every stop counts. Then again, having one crop and one FF body, and the right lenses, can really expand your range without having to change lenses. (I've shot with crop only and with both.)

I would lean towards one of each...depending on lenses...but I would not fault someone for choosing 2 FF bodies for wedding work. OP is going to have to weigh the non-work advantages (reach; speed) against the work situation (lens collection vs. low light).

Your last point is something I have been 'feeling' but unable to express.  I am not a full-time professional.  Heck, I am not yet willing to call myself a fully-fledged part-time professional.  Therefore, I keep feeling like I may want a high quality crop.  I just ordered one from Adorama - Canon Refurb $969 and I am going to give it a good test when it shows up.  Since I am not a full-time pro and I am not yet shooting weddings (but aspire to one day), I think I am going to likely end up keeping the 7D, wait for the 5D2 refurbs to drop in price more like the 7D did, and then grab one or even a second 5D3 at that time.  If my 5D3 goes out during a shoot, a 7D is far better than the older crops or no camera at all.

Problem now is, I ordered a second 5D2 refurb from Canon as the first one that came had 2,851 actuations on it and looked a little worn.  So I will be out shipping on two 5D2's once this is all said and done.  Will give both 5D2's and the 7D a very good test using FoCal's multi-point AF test (which reveals AF point consistency and accuracy) and possibly still consider keeping one of the two 5D2's.  We'll see.  Maybe just rent a 5D2 or 5D3 whenever I have a bigger low-light commitment (i.e. Wedding).  My 7D should suffice for outdoor shooting.

My lenses - I own:
24-105L, 35 f/1.4L, 50 f/1.4, 85 f/1.8 and 70-200 f/2.8

I think if I take the money I save from buying a 5D2 and put it into a 16-35 f/2.8 II, I'd have a nice wide angle I could use for the 7D that puts me into the ~24-50mm effective range.

I also have been weighing the cost of a 1.4x II extender - $399 to $499.  Half to more than half the way to the $969 refurbished 7D...  Rather have the 7D (for now) plus it gives me 1.6x AND AF that still works @ f/2.8 and faster using double cross-type points...

Thanks to everyone.
Title: Re: 5D2 refurb or new 7D as backup to 5D3?
Post by: Botts on March 24, 2013, 03:25:06 PM
My lenses - I own:
24-105L, 35 f/1.4L, 50 f/1.4, 85 f/1.8 and 70-200 f/2.8

I think if I take the money I save from buying a 5D2 and put it into a 16-35 f/2.8 II, I'd have a nice wide angle I could use for the 7D that puts me into the ~24-50mm effective range.

I also have been weighing the cost of a 1.4x II extender - $399 to $499.  Half to more than half the way to the $969 refurbished 7D...  Rather have the 7D (for now) plus it gives me 1.6x AND AF that still works @ f/2.8 and faster using double cross-type points...

Thanks to everyone.

I think you made the right choice with the 7D for now.  It's a great camera, with great autofocus.

I would REALLY consider renting that 16-35 first.  I was all gung-ho to buy one, so I rented it and realized that I'd likely never use it.  Alternatively to getting the 16-35, I'd strongly consider buying a used 17-55/2.8 IS (~$800).  The lens is very sharp, it has IS, and is still a fixed 2.8.  It is for crop body only, but is the best normal lens on the 7D.  Then you could use either your 85/1.8 or 70-200/2.8 on your 5D3.  You'd have the advantage of both focal length ranges at reach at all times.
Title: Re: 5D2 refurb or new 7D as backup to 5D3?
Post by: Hydrogen on March 24, 2013, 03:49:58 PM
I would REALLY consider renting that 16-35 first.  I was all gung-ho to buy one, so I rented it and realized that I'd likely never use it.  Alternatively to getting the 16-35, I'd strongly consider buying a used 17-55/2.8 IS (~$800).  The lens is very sharp, it has IS, and is still a fixed 2.8.  It is for crop body only, but is the best normal lens on the 7D.  Then you could use either your 85/1.8 or 70-200/2.8 on your 5D3.  You'd have the advantage of both focal length ranges at reach at all times.

So my thinking was to have an UWA EF zoom that I could also make use of for even wider shots on my 5D3 (my widest lens right now is the 24-105L).  I was also thinking to use the 7D as my body for family vacations and bring the 24-105L plus an UWA along with me for the wider shots, but that means carrying two lenses.

After some consideration and for the cost, I would probably go with the 17-40 f/4L instead of the 16-35.  But I just compared the ISO 12233 crops on the TDP site between the 17-55/2.8 IS you have recommended and the 17-40 and have to say the EFS 17-55 wins out for resolving/sharpness, but when comparing both @ 28mm f/5.6 http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=398&Camera=474&Sample=0&FLI=2&API=2&LensComp=100&CameraComp=474&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=3&APIComp=2 (http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=398&Camera=474&Sample=0&FLI=2&API=2&LensComp=100&CameraComp=474&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=3&APIComp=2), the 17-40 clearly is brighter in the middle and corner of the frame (on even a 50D).  Also, a problem I have with it is the fact that it's a crop-only lens. :-(

What to do...
Title: Re: 5D2 refurb or new 7D as backup to 5D3?
Post by: Krob78 on April 02, 2013, 01:12:46 PM
I currently use 5d3, 2 5d2 and a 7d shooting Weddings. I also read what David Ziser said before I purchased the 7d. Based upon my experience over the past year, I would choose the 5d2 over the 7d. You probably should exchange or return the 5d2 refurb you purchased. Get a different refurb or you can still buy a new 5d2 from b&h. I prefer the iq of any of the 5d bodies to the 7d. Iso is also an issue. Good luck!
I'd second that.  I've used my 7d for several weddings prior to getting the 5d3.  It's doable but it's a lot of extra work in post, that's for sure!
Title: Re: 5D2 refurb or new 7D as backup to 5D3?
Post by: RLPhoto on April 02, 2013, 01:17:34 PM
I would say a used 5D2 or a Refurb 5D3 when they come back down to the 2375$ pricing. The 6D AF isn't much better than the 5D2 IMO.

The thumb-jog doesn't really matter much on the 5D2/6D/5Dc because you'll mainly be using one point.  ;)
Title: Re: 5D2 refurb or new 7D as backup to 5D3?
Post by: Krob78 on April 02, 2013, 01:21:30 PM
I would say a used 5D2 or a Refurb 5D3 when they come back down to the 2375$ pricing. The 6D AF isn't much better than the 5D2 IMO.

The thumb-jog doesn't really matter much on the 5D2/6D/5Dc because you'll mainly be using one point.  ;)
+1
Title: Re: 5D2 refurb or new 7D as backup to 5D3?
Post by: Mt Spokane Photography on April 02, 2013, 01:31:10 PM
I've owned two 7D's, two 5D MK II's and two 5D MK III's.  My 7D was mostly useful as a studio camera with good lighting, or outdoors with bright lighting.  It suffered at high ISO 800 or over, but could be used at 1600 or even 3200 if you were immune to noise or used a lot of NR.
 
I always preferred my 5D MK II to the 7D's.  Finally, I sold the 7D's and bought a used 1D MK II.  What a improvement that made. 
 
The 7D was certainly a good crop body, it had some significant good points in adequate light and suffered in low light.
 
 
BTW, you need only look at the resolution scores at Photozone, DXO, or any lens review site to see how much sharper FF images are than images from a crop camera.  Even a old 5D classic will out resolve every Canon crop made including the 7D when tested using the same lens.  The reason is that FF cameras are not as demanding of a lens as a camera with a small sensor.  Just because a crop uses the center portion of a lens does not overcome the FF advantage except for vignetting.
Title: Re: 5D2 refurb or new 7D as backup to 5D3?
Post by: Krob78 on April 04, 2013, 11:17:42 AM
I've owned two 7D's, two 5D MK II's and two 5D MK III's.  My 7D was mostly useful as a studio camera with good lighting, or outdoors with bright lighting.  It suffered at high ISO 800 or over, but could be used at 1600 or even 3200 if you were immune to noise or used a lot of NR.
 
I always preferred my 5D MK II to the 7D's.  Finally, I sold the 7D's and bought a used 1D MK II.  What a improvement that made. 
 
The 7D was certainly a good crop body, it had some significant good points in adequate light and suffered in low light.
 
 
BTW, you need only look at the resolution scores at Photozone, DXO, or any lens review site to see how much sharper FF images are than images from a crop camera.  Even a old 5D classic will out resolve every Canon crop made including the 7D when tested using the same lens.  The reason is that FF cameras are not as demanding of a lens as a camera with a small sensor.  Just because a crop uses the center portion of a lens does not overcome the FF advantage except for vignetting.
And if you need the fps rate with the extra low light advantage and only have modest budget resources, the 5D3 answers both of those... albeit a little slower  fps rate than the 7d, the 6fps are still useful... If it wasn't for budget restraints I'd love a 1Dx! 

I'm still trying to sell my 7d, just haven't been able to do it quite yet.  Still reaching for it in some of my sports work... the 8fps can still make a difference between getting the money shot or getting the shot right before or after the money shot!   ::)