canon rumors FORUM

Gear Talk => Lighting => Topic started by: V8Beast on March 23, 2013, 07:26:28 PM

Title: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: V8Beast on March 23, 2013, 07:26:28 PM
Maybe I'm on crack, but I thought people have successfully used the Odins to high-speed sync monolights? I tried HSS with the Alien Bees today but no workie :( Am I doing something wrong?

The way I understand it, in HSS mode the Odins are supposed to trigger the monolights to fire right before the shutter opens. All I got was a black exposure.
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: neuroanatomist on March 23, 2013, 07:37:09 PM
http://www.paulcbuff-techforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2455 (http://www.paulcbuff-techforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2455)
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: V8Beast on March 23, 2013, 07:42:45 PM
http://www.paulcbuff-techforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2455 (http://www.paulcbuff-techforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2455)

To plagiarize what someone posted in that link:

"Remember that Hyper-sync (PW) and Highspeed Sync (Canon) are two completely different things.
The first is a tweak to X sync timing that permits taking best advantage of a strobe tube's tail after the main burst. Essentially making the strobe a short duration continuous light source."

I thought that's what the Odins are supposed to do, but perhaps I'm mistaken. I wouldn't expect a monolight to pulse like a Speedlight in HSS. That would be insane :)
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: jonathan7007 on March 23, 2013, 10:56:10 PM
Are the Einsteins perhaps different in this regard than the Alien Bees?
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: neuroanatomist on March 23, 2013, 11:05:27 PM
Are the Einsteins perhaps different in this regard than the Alien Bees?

Yes. Different from most other monolights, actually.

http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-10053-10715 (http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-10053-10715)
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: Stickman on March 25, 2013, 03:32:15 AM
Maybe I'm on crack, but I thought people have successfully used the Odins to high-speed sync monolights? I tried HSS with the Alien Bees today but no workie :( Am I doing something wrong?

The way I understand it, in HSS mode the Odins are supposed to trigger the monolights to fire right before the shutter opens. All I got was a black exposure.

The Phottix don't work with certain Canon cameras, but of course they don't tell you that when you buy them. 

In general, I have been highly underwhelmed with the Phottix Odins.  I picked up four last year, and have been sitting on them for the past 6 months waiting for Phottix to try and get their act together. 

The units eat batteries, and won't synch at higher speeds.  I'm not sure I would call them a total, utter, and absolute failure, but I can say that it was money wasted for me.  The company talk of "upgrades" to the system seem to be nothing more than a PR move to ride out a defective product. 
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: V8Beast on March 25, 2013, 12:24:39 PM
The Phottix don't work with certain Canon cameras, but of course they don't tell you that when you buy them. 

That blows. I assume the 5D3 is one of those Canon bodies :( I'll try the "manual hack" method to see if I can get the Bees to sync up.
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: Stickman on March 25, 2013, 12:58:33 PM

That blows. I assume the 5D3 is one of those Canon bodies :( I'll try the "manual hack" method to see if I can get the Bees to sync up.

I'm not sure about the 5D3, but the 1Dx certainly doesn't work with the Phottix.  Since they both came out around the same time with similar design features, I would guess its possible.  If that is what you are using that would seem to confirm it.

Phottix keeps hinting that they are coming out with new features for everyone with their next firmware update, but as I've told them, just get the current body Canon cameras to work.  Add extra features later AFTER your lineup is functional. 

I would really like to see this system work, but so far it is nothing but money ill spent.
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: wickidwombat on March 26, 2013, 09:13:26 PM
Maybe I'm on crack, but I thought people have successfully used the Odins to high-speed sync monolights? I tried HSS with the Alien Bees today but no workie :( Am I doing something wrong?

The way I understand it, in HSS mode the Odins are supposed to trigger the monolights to fire right before the shutter opens. All I got was a black exposure.

works great with my elinchroms
I got a couple of these kits, 400w per head is fine for my needs and with 4 of them i can do pretty much anything i want now.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/906651-REG/elinchrom_el_20852kit_d_lite_rx_4_400w.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/906651-REG/elinchrom_el_20852kit_d_lite_rx_4_400w.html)
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: wickidwombat on March 26, 2013, 09:15:48 PM
Maybe I'm on crack, but I thought people have successfully used the Odins to high-speed sync monolights? I tried HSS with the Alien Bees today but no workie :( Am I doing something wrong?

The way I understand it, in HSS mode the Odins are supposed to trigger the monolights to fire right before the shutter opens. All I got was a black exposure.

The Phottix don't work with certain Canon cameras, but of course they don't tell you that when you buy them. 

In general, I have been highly underwhelmed with the Phottix Odins.  I picked up four last year, and have been sitting on them for the past 6 months waiting for Phottix to try and get their act together. 

The units eat batteries, and won't synch at higher speeds.  I'm not sure I would call them a total, utter, and absolute failure, but I can say that it was money wasted for me.  The company talk of "upgrades" to the system seem to be nothing more than a PR move to ride out a defective product.

really? mine work fine on
5Dmk2
5Dmk3
1Dmk3
EOS-M and
600D

i havent tried them with my elan 7 yet but i would assume they work with that too
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: V8Beast on March 26, 2013, 10:20:46 PM


works great with my elinchroms
I got a couple of these kits, 400w per head is fine for my needs and with 4 of them i can do pretty much anything i want now.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/906651-REG/elinchrom_el_20852kit_d_lite_rx_4_400w.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/906651-REG/elinchrom_el_20852kit_d_lite_rx_4_400w.html)

Thanks for the info! The good news is that the Odins and HSS works with Elinchroms. The bad news is that I might have to get a new set of Elinchroms. Damn you ;D
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: wickidwombat on March 26, 2013, 10:28:11 PM


works great with my elinchroms
I got a couple of these kits, 400w per head is fine for my needs and with 4 of them i can do pretty much anything i want now.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/906651-REG/elinchrom_el_20852kit_d_lite_rx_4_400w.html (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/906651-REG/elinchrom_el_20852kit_d_lite_rx_4_400w.html)

Thanks for the info! The good news is that the Odins and HSS works with Elinchroms. The bad news is that I might have to get a new set of Elinchroms. Damn you ;D

if you do grab a stratto 2 reciever and a 3.5mm audio splitter cable to fire them and save the spendy odin recievers for your speedlights which you can still mix in.

i've been meaning to do a detailed tutorial on this since it comes up quite alot but just havent had time
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: V8Beast on March 26, 2013, 10:37:56 PM
if you do grab a stratto 2 reciever and a 3.5mm audio splitter cable to fire them and save the spendy odin recievers for your speedlights which you can still mix in.

i've been meaning to do a detailed tutorial on this since it comes up quite alot but just havent had time

That's a great money-saving tip. I wonder why HSS will work with Elinchrom lights but not the Bees. Weird. I'm spoiled by the money/performance ratio you get from the Bees, so the Elinchroms are really going to hurt my wallet.
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: wickidwombat on March 26, 2013, 11:17:06 PM
if you do grab a stratto 2 reciever and a 3.5mm audio splitter cable to fire them and save the spendy odin recievers for your speedlights which you can still mix in.

i've been meaning to do a detailed tutorial on this since it comes up quite alot but just havent had time

That's a great money-saving tip. I wonder why HSS will work with Elinchrom lights but not the Bees. Weird. I'm spoiled by the money/performance ratio you get from the Bees, so the Elinchroms are really going to hurt my wallet.

I'm not quite sure how it works exactly but from the detailed specs from B&H

Product Highlights
•Built-in Skyport Wireless Receiver
•Multi-voltage Monolight: 90-260VAC
•Recycling: 0.35-1.6 Sec. (115V)
•Flash Duration: 1/800 Sec (Full Power)
•5 Stop Power Variability in 1/10 Stops
•Pre-Flash Detector
•Fan-Cooled, Auto Dump
•Optional iPhone, iPad, iPod Touch Apps
•Accepts 7-8 mm Umbrella Shafts
•Firmware Update Options

Its showing a full power blast is at 1/800 sec so any shutter speed faster than that could be completely lit within that if its timing the firing
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: V8Beast on March 27, 2013, 12:58:55 AM
I need to study up on the Elinchrom product line. Ideally I'd like more power than the D-Lite 400s, but then again, with HSS i could kill the ambient much more easily, which means I could open up the aperture more, which means I wouldn't need as much power in the first place. Hmmm.... The RX 600 heads are too expensive for my budget,  but very appealing.

I'd be tempted to try to run these off a Vagabond since the Elinchrom power supplies are so costly.
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: wickidwombat on March 27, 2013, 01:39:27 AM
I need to study up on the Elinchrom product line. Ideally I'd like more power than the D-Lite 400s, but then again, with HSS i could kill the ambient much more easily, which means I could open up the aperture more, which means I wouldn't need as much power in the first place. Hmmm.... The RX 600 heads are too expensive for my budget,  but very appealing.

I'd be tempted to try to run these off a Vagabond since the Elinchrom power supplies are so costly.

i built my own power pack :D

2 SLA golf buggy batteries in a lowepro nova 200 AW bag with a 1000W pure sign wave inverter and a power board. modified a set of jumper leads to wire it all upused decent quality auto terminals and electrical heat shrink to make it neat and tidy, good for a couple of hundred pops of 2 flashes at full power,  cost about $400 including a trickle charger to keep the batteries full and healthy when not being used.

2 x 400W lights put out a fair bit of power
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: V8Beast on March 27, 2013, 07:57:08 AM


i built my own power pack :D

2 SLA golf buggy batteries in a lowepro nova 200 AW bag with a 1000W pure sign wave inverter and a power board. modified a set of jumper leads to wire it all upused decent quality auto terminals and electrical heat shrink to make it neat and tidy, good for a couple of hundred pops of 2 flashes at full power,  cost about $400 including a trickle charger to keep the batteries full and healthy when not being used.


That's awesome. Sent you a PM :)

Has anyone tried one of these Tronix Explorer XT battery packs before? They're supposedly good for 400-480 pops at 500ws.

www.innovatronix.com/index.php/webshop/portable-battery-packs/tronix-explorer-xt-se-115v-60hz-detail (http://www.innovatronix.com/index.php/webshop/portable-battery-packs/tronix-explorer-xt-se-115v-60hz-detail)
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: Stickman on March 27, 2013, 06:25:32 PM

really? mine work fine on
5Dmk2
5Dmk3
1Dmk3
EOS-M and
600D

i havent tried them with my elan 7 yet but i would assume they work with that too

Congratulations, I'm glad they work for you with your cameras.  They don't work with the 1Dx. 
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: pwp on March 27, 2013, 08:35:40 PM
I recall reading somewhere (maybe here!) that Yongnuo YN622C http://flashhavoc.com/yn622c_review/ (http://flashhavoc.com/yn622c_review/) will deliver HSS for Einsteins.
I'm hoping so as I have six Einsteins and searching for an HSS solution.
That's unfortunate that the Odins deliver for Elincrom but not Einstein...sigh...

Has anyone hooked up their Einsteins to Yongnuo YN622C's?

-PW
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: risc32 on March 27, 2013, 08:58:21 PM


i built my own power pack :D

2 SLA golf buggy batteries in a lowepro nova 200 AW bag with a 1000W pure sign wave inverter and a power board. modified a set of jumper leads to wire it all upused decent quality auto terminals and electrical heat shrink to make it neat and tidy, good for a couple of hundred pops of 2 flashes at full power,  cost about $400 including a trickle charger to keep the batteries full and healthy when not being used.


That's awesome. Sent you a PM :)

Has anyone tried one of these Tronix Explorer XT battery packs before? They're supposedly good for 400-480 pops at 500ws.

www.innovatronix.com/index.php/webshop/portable-battery-packs/tronix-explorer-xt-se-115v-60hz-detail (http://www.innovatronix.com/index.php/webshop/portable-battery-packs/tronix-explorer-xt-se-115v-60hz-detail)

http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-6468-7843 (http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/content_page.asp?cid=7-6468-7843) I know it's a bit dated, but you might find it useful. actually, there is some more current info on his site, just search  for "tronix".

 I've read over all that Elinchrom info and I don't see it written anywhere that it can do any sort of HSS stuff. With the way things are changing i wouldn't say it can't be done, but i don't see this kit doing it. actually the info for this stuff reads that the monolight can go as fast as 1/320th on enabled cameras. i don't know what enabled cameras means, i'd have to track that down. but then the trigger reads it will go to 1/250th so with that trigger anyway you are stuck a 1/250th.

- BTW-my odins work just fine with my 5d, 5dmk3. fine... no, they are awesome, i should have gotten them earlier.
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: jonathan7007 on March 27, 2013, 09:29:31 PM
I know this is a sideline for this thread but I was pretty surprised to learn I might not be able to use my new Odins for my 5DMk3. Had used them just with my 1DsMk3 so far.

Tried it on 5DMk3 just now and one of the Odin rcvrs I have worked with 550EX, with the flash in the same room as my 5DMk3.

Phew!
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: V8Beast on March 27, 2013, 09:50:13 PM
I found a pretty sweet deal on some Bowens 750ws heads, so the new question is whether or not they'll work with the Odins in HSS :)
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: risc32 on March 27, 2013, 10:05:47 PM
So i read a bit more, and sure enough as you thought some people are getting these faster shutter speeds with certain strobes. From what i've read you only have to enable HSS and start ramping up the shutter speed, but there was some talk about the flash needing to be at full power.....   
 
 what, if i may ask, are you up to that needs these shutter speeds?
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: wickidwombat on March 27, 2013, 10:11:06 PM
I found a pretty sweet deal on some Bowens 750ws heads, so the new question is whether or not they'll work with the Odins in HSS :)

hmmm i might know someone with some bowens heads give me a few days I'll see if i can test it out
bowens are good because the modifiers are cheaper, i buy elinchrom to bowens adapters so i can use cheaper bowens modifiers (elinchrom stuff is a bit spendy)

750ws ! thats some serious punch to be honest if i need that much power i'll just ganglight my 4 x 400ws ones
(never actually tried it but the ganglight concept should be the same as with speedlights, just a bit of trial and error to work out the optimal spacing)
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: V8Beast on March 27, 2013, 11:08:01 PM
I found a pretty sweet deal on some Bowens 750ws heads, so the new question is whether or not they'll work with the Odins in HSS :)

hmmm i might know someone with some bowens heads give me a few days I'll see if i can test it out
bowens are good because the modifiers are cheaper, i buy elinchrom to bowens adapters so i can use cheaper bowens modifiers (elinchrom stuff is a bit spendy)

750ws ! thats some serious punch to be honest if i need that much power i'll just ganglight my 4 x 400ws ones
(never actually tried it but the ganglight concept should be the same as with speedlights, just a bit of trial and error to work out the optimal spacing)

Man, if you could test out the Bowens/Odin combo that would be awesome. I'd owe you a big-time e-favor ;D Another appealing aspect of the Bowens 750 head is that it has a slow 1/650 flash duration at full power. I know that's the exact opposite of what most people are looking for in a flash head, since the goal is usually to freeze action, but the slower flash duration would work more favorably for hyper-syncing purposes when shooting static subjects.

Alternately, since my 550EXs don't have a sync port, I could try the "manual hack" method with one of these sync cords:

www.phottix.com/en/flash-accessories/phottix-duo-ttl-flash-remote-cord.html (http://www.phottix.com/en/flash-accessories/phottix-duo-ttl-flash-remote-cord.html) 

The idea would be mounting one end of the cord along with a 550EX on top of the camera hot shoe, and then mounting the Odin on the other end of the cord. With the 550EX in master and HSS mode, the Odin transmitter should then be able to intercept the HSS signal between the Speedlite and the camera body and relay that signal to the Odin receivers, thereby triggering the monolights right before the shutter opens. At least that's the theory, and some people with the old school PocketWizards (MultiMax) claim that it actually works :) Even if it works, I'd much rather have a less ghetto solution :)
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: jonathan7007 on March 28, 2013, 03:42:07 AM
There's a Nissan cord just like that which I bought on the recommendation of a CR Forum contributor, who usesit for events/weddings. It has a "External/Attached" switch on the base that allows you to change where the control occurs. The Odin is dangling at the end of the cord and the dual-hot-shoe end is on top of the camera so you can put a flash on the top of the camera. Of course, usually the Odin controller is expected to be up there on its own. (The dangling Odin goes in a pocket of your shirt I will come up with some other way to hold it, too. )

Interesting to use it for HSS-like set-up.
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: Maui5150 on March 28, 2013, 06:53:15 AM
I need to study up on the Elinchrom product line. Ideally I'd like more power than the D-Lite 400s, but then again, with HSS i could kill the ambient much more easily, which means I could open up the aperture more, which means I wouldn't need as much power in the first place. Hmmm.... The RX 600 heads are too expensive for my budget,  but very appealing.

I'd be tempted to try to run these off a Vagabond since the Elinchrom power supplies are so costly.

You might have to go with the Elinchrom power supplies.  Not sure which you are looking at, most I see from them are digital and if you are looking at the Vagabond Lithium Mini, it may not work for you as you think.

The Lithium Mini is really designed for analog monolights and because of the way it recycles, it creates issues with digital lights.  As an example, I cannot run my Photogenic PL2500DR or PL2500DRR off of the Mini... even just a single light, which technically the Vagabond should handle.

I can, however BARELY use the Vagabond with my PL1250DR, so only 500W/S versus 1000 W/S and even there only single light.

Now if I was using the PL1250 (Analog version) I should be able to power 2 fine. 

This is something to do with the inverter, the voltage drops during the recycle and the stable power needed by the lights.  The digital lights for the most part have a slightly higher requirement and at the bottom of the curve, the Vagabond is too low and "brownout" can be harmful to the digital components

You also notice all the Paul C Buff are analog.  Not a coincidence. 

Would be nicer if the Lithium had a little higher curve, but it is optimized for their line. 

Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: V8Beast on March 28, 2013, 11:22:12 AM

You might have to go with the Elinchrom power supplies.  Not sure which you are looking at, most I see from them are digital and if you are looking at the Vagabond Lithium Mini, it may not work for you as you think.

The Lithium Mini is really designed for analog monolights and because of the way it recycles, it creates issues with digital lights.  As an example, I cannot run my Photogenic PL2500DR or PL2500DRR off of the Mini... even just a single light, which technically the Vagabond should handle.

I can, however BARELY use the Vagabond with my PL1250DR, so only 500W/S versus 1000 W/S and even there only single light.

Now if I was using the PL1250 (Analog version) I should be able to power 2 fine. 

This is something to do with the inverter, the voltage drops during the recycle and the stable power needed by the lights.  The digital lights for the most part have a slightly higher requirement and at the bottom of the curve, the Vagabond is too low and "brownout" can be harmful to the digital components

You also notice all the Paul C Buff are analog.  Not a coincidence. 

Would be nicer if the Lithium had a little higher curve, but it is optimized for their line.

I hadn't considered the digital vs. analog issue, but I am now. Lots of people have experienced compatibility issues between newer variable voltage heads and the Vagabonds. The way I understand it, since heads like the Elinchrom 500 BXRi and Bowens Gemini Pros are designed to work with both 120v and 240v power outlets, the Vagabonds might have a hard time keeping up with the variations in voltage while the lights are recycling. The SE version of the Tronix Explorer battery pack was designed to address this issue, so that's probably what I'd go with if opting for the Elinchroms. Either that, or make a battery pack like wickidwombat's :)

Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: Maui5150 on March 29, 2013, 07:04:46 AM

You might have to go with the Elinchrom power supplies.  Not sure which you are looking at, most I see from them are digital and if you are looking at the Vagabond Lithium Mini, it may not work for you as you think.

The Lithium Mini is really designed for analog monolights and because of the way it recycles, it creates issues with digital lights.  As an example, I cannot run my Photogenic PL2500DR or PL2500DRR off of the Mini... even just a single light, which technically the Vagabond should handle.

I can, however BARELY use the Vagabond with my PL1250DR, so only 500W/S versus 1000 W/S and even there only single light.

Now if I was using the PL1250 (Analog version) I should be able to power 2 fine. 

This is something to do with the inverter, the voltage drops during the recycle and the stable power needed by the lights.  The digital lights for the most part have a slightly higher requirement and at the bottom of the curve, the Vagabond is too low and "brownout" can be harmful to the digital components

You also notice all the Paul C Buff are analog.  Not a coincidence. 

Would be nicer if the Lithium had a little higher curve, but it is optimized for their line.

I hadn't considered the digital vs. analog issue, but I am now. Lots of people have experienced compatibility issues between newer variable voltage heads and the Vagabonds. The way I understand it, since heads like the Elinchrom 500 BXRi and Bowens Gemini Pros are designed to work with both 120v and 240v power outlets, the Vagabonds might have a hard time keeping up with the variations in voltage while the lights are recycling. The SE version of the Tronix Explorer battery pack was designed to address this issue, so that's probably what I'd go with if opting for the Elinchroms. Either that, or make a battery pack like wickidwombat's :)

Not sure how much the variable voltage heads play a part, I think it is more the sensitivity of the digital components to brown outs.

Can't remember where I saw the technical paper and details, but after firing, the (and can't remember if it is current) the drop of power is just below the required steady power many of the digital strobes require.  Some may be better than others.

I have also see other people who have tried recycle tests with some of the Elinchroms and while they do o.k. at lower power, once they boost up closer to full power, after firing they will throw E4 errors

With my photogenics, they are designed to discharge when powered off or when the wattage is decreased, so what I would see with the 2500s would be a fire, half charge, discharge, then full charge and they would be ready... in short, they did not like the current drop. 

My guess with the Elinchrom power and why it is more expensive, it has a larger and better power inverter as well as not sure if the added in some capacitors, or just maintain more current and thus have a lower drop from a firing
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: V8Beast on March 29, 2013, 12:48:19 PM
bowens are good because the modifiers are cheaper, i buy elinchrom to bowens adapters so i can use cheaper bowens modifiers (elinchrom stuff is a bit spendy)

Just curious where I can find good deals on Bowens light modifiers? Looking at the B&H site, a lot of the Bowens stuff is just as expensive and sometimes more expensive that the Elinchrom modifiers. Standard general purpose Bowens reflectors runs $60-$80, whereas similar Elinchrom reflectors run $40-$50. The $240 Bowens charges for a set of barndoors seems little silly, too.

I was leaning toward Bowens, but not too sure anymore.
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: V8Beast on March 29, 2013, 12:49:07 PM


Not sure how much the variable voltage heads play a part, I think it is more the sensitivity of the digital components to brown outs.

Can't remember where I saw the technical paper and details, but after firing, the (and can't remember if it is current) the drop of power is just below the required steady power many of the digital strobes require.  Some may be better than others.

I have also see other people who have tried recycle tests with some of the Elinchroms and while they do o.k. at lower power, once they boost up closer to full power, after firing they will throw E4 errors

With my photogenics, they are designed to discharge when powered off or when the wattage is decreased, so what I would see with the 2500s would be a fire, half charge, discharge, then full charge and they would be ready... in short, they did not like the current drop. 

My guess with the Elinchrom power and why it is more expensive, it has a larger and better power inverter as well as not sure if the added in some capacitors, or just maintain more current and thus have a lower drop from a firing

More great info. Thanks for educating me :)
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: wickidwombat on April 01, 2013, 07:42:36 PM
bowens are good because the modifiers are cheaper, i buy elinchrom to bowens adapters so i can use cheaper bowens modifiers (elinchrom stuff is a bit spendy)

Just curious where I can find good deals on Bowens light modifiers? Looking at the B&H site, a lot of the Bowens stuff is just as expensive and sometimes more expensive that the Elinchrom modifiers. Standard general purpose Bowens reflectors runs $60-$80, whereas similar Elinchrom reflectors run $40-$50. The $240 Bowens charges for a set of barndoors seems little silly, too.

I was leaning toward Bowens, but not too sure anymore.

I buy the meking brand off ebay (usually about half of what the elinchroms cost), great quality and much better prices
i've got a big octobox and 2 x 6' tall strip lights with grids, with these 2 strips setup sideways I'm pretty sure i could light a whole car with 2 lights ;)

I took a pic of my battery pack wiring i'll email it over, havent had a chance to get hold of the guy i know with bownes heads yet

how much can you get that 750w bowens head for?

I hit the wall with 1 x 400w in midday sun on the weekend, could have used more punch still worked great as fill with a beauty dish (also meking brand bowens mount)

http://stores.ebay.com/Meking-Equipments/_i.html?_nkw=soft (http://stores.ebay.com/Meking-Equipments/_i.html?_nkw=soft) box
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: V8Beast on April 02, 2013, 12:30:55 AM
I buy the meking brand off ebay (usually about half of what the elinchroms cost), great quality and much better prices
i've got a big octobox and 2 x 6' tall strip lights with grids, with these 2 strips setup sideways I'm pretty sure i could light a whole car with 2 lights ;)

I took a pic of my battery pack wiring i'll email it over, havent had a chance to get hold of the guy i know with bownes heads yet

how much can you get that 750w bowens head for?

I hit the wall with 1 x 400w in midday sun on the weekend, could have used more punch still worked great as fill with a beauty dish (also meking brand bowens mount)

http://stores.ebay.com/Meking-Equipments/_i.html?_nkw=soft (http://stores.ebay.com/Meking-Equipments/_i.html?_nkw=soft) box

Thanks for the tip on the Meking modifiers and the battery.

I found a line on some refurb'd Bowens 750 heads for $380 USD. As nice as HSS would be, if I can get enough juice out of the lights, then I can do what I want the old fashioned way with an ND grad filter and a boat load of power :)

That's got me thinking about the White Lightning 3200s (1320 ws). Precise color temp isn't that critical for my needs, and the WLs have a five year warranty. 
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: wickidwombat on April 02, 2013, 01:11:45 AM
i'll post up a couple of pics from the weekend using the elinchrom in HSS
you do lose power so its a bit of a trade off. Not really a problem in very low light or studio
but in mid day sun its a bit of an issue (however as i said before the ganglighting principle
works and works even better than it does with HSS on speedlights!)
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: V8Beast on April 02, 2013, 01:54:35 AM
i'll post up a couple of pics from the weekend using the elinchrom in HSS

Yes, please post pics! Would you happen to know if HSS also works with the Elinchrom 500BXRi and 600RX heads?
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: wickidwombat on April 02, 2013, 02:54:28 AM
i'll post up a couple of pics from the weekend using the elinchrom in HSS

Yes, please post pics! Would you happen to know if HSS also works with the Elinchrom 500BXRi and 600RX heads?

I can test on the 500s but not sure if they have the 600s i'll have to check
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: wickidwombat on April 02, 2013, 06:59:26 PM
here are a couple of shots
1 is 1/200 second and f10 i think
the other is f2 and 1/4000

both shot with the elinchrom 400w with 70cm beauty dish
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: risc32 on April 02, 2013, 07:55:20 PM
i just won't go away. Perhaps you know this already but for those of you following along at home, the old school way of using an ND filter to get your shutter speed down into your cameras real max synch speed is the more efficient method. It's just slower, and you need a proper ND filter. i know, you don't believe me. check with david at the "strobist", he's much more creditable than i am... me? i'm just some dude gaffer tapping 580s and 430s together on a light stand in full sun at a wedding...
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: V8Beast on April 02, 2013, 08:05:36 PM
here are a couple of shots
1 is 1/200 second and f10 i think
the other is f2 and 1/4000

both shot with the elinchrom 400w with 70cm beauty dish

Very cool! Thanks for posting these pics.
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: V8Beast on April 02, 2013, 08:32:31 PM
Perhaps you know this already but for those of you following along at home, the old school way of using an ND filter to get your shutter speed down into your cameras real max synch speed is the more efficient method.

No argument here. Even so, if it's possible to HSS monolights and avoid the hassle of busting out the grad filters, I don't see how it hurts to at least explore that option.

Quote
It's just slower, and you need a proper ND filter. i know, you don't believe me. check with david at the "strobist", he's much more creditable than i am... me?

You mean to tell me you need a proper ND filter to use an ND filter? You don't say. What's next? Are you going to clue me in on how to turn on my camera :)?

Quote
what, if i may ask, are you up to that needs these shutter speeds?

My apologies for missing this query earlier in the thread, but to answer your question, this is why I'm in search of fast sync speeds:

(http://www.soete.com/rw/rs4/pic01.jpg)

(http://www.soete.com/rw/z4/pic08.jpg)

(http://www.soete.com/rw/cayman/pic01.jpg)

(http://www.soete.com/rw/cayman/pic07.jpg)

These are NOT my images. They were clearly taken by someone more talented than myself :) Nevertheless, I would like to emulate a similar effect, where the ambient light is almost entirely defeated during the middle of the day when it's properly bright outside. You read right. These shots were taken during the middle of the day, not at night. Over-powering the ambient in this fashion, then throwing some light on the subject, can yield some dramatic results.

I agree that the best way to accomplish this is with some ND grads. I'd just like to explore the HSS option, if that's OK with you :)



Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: wickidwombat on April 02, 2013, 09:23:54 PM
yeah you are definately gonna need more powerfull lights than my lil 400ws ones for that

although i do have 4 i should give it a go with ganglighting them. it would probably take 40 speedlights to put out that much power. in a ganglight setup with no modifier it would be delivering optimal power with no loss from the modifiers too

however i'm not sure how much of a problem that will be with shiny cars
Just dont have any time to think about allocating a day to playing with this
this month anyway

I just think its a cool feature
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: Maui5150 on April 02, 2013, 09:34:32 PM

These are NOT my images. They were clearly taken by someone more talented than myself :) Nevertheless, I would like to emulate a similar effect, where the ambient light is almost entirely defeated during the middle of the day when it's properly bright outside. You read right. These shots were taken during the middle of the day, not at night. Over-powering the ambient in this fashion, then throwing some light on the subject, can yield some dramatic results.


NO WAY!!!!

Those shots were taken during the day?  Shocking!
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: V8Beast on April 02, 2013, 09:50:01 PM
Someone loaded up on their smartass pills today. Did you and risc get a package discount or something?
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: wickidwombat on April 02, 2013, 10:42:57 PM
Private thanks I'll take that as a compliment as i didnt want the flash blazingly obvious
bearing in mind this is the middle of the day with the sun directly overhead the shadows are hard and contrasty
I was trying to keep it all balanced and make it not look like i threw a ton of flash in there

could have used a reflector however the jetty is pretty narrow and not much room for an assistant to hold it
oh and also i didnt have an assistant :P
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: V8Beast on April 02, 2013, 10:49:50 PM
The simplest way to do the cars is with a couple of speedlights, $125 550EX's would do the job. I know that is not the cool answer, or the answer to every situation, but it is true.

Are you sure? I light cars with 550EXs all the time. They work fine when there's little to no ambient and if you turn the ISO way up. During broad daylight, the Speedlights are good for fill light on small sections of a car for detail shots, and that's about it.
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: V8Beast on April 02, 2013, 11:46:13 PM
Yep. My spread pattern is very similar to the patches of light seen on the cars in all four shots, don't you agree? The stairs in the second shot would need a big light, but all the rest could be blended from speedlite exposures, which lets face it, you are going to be doing even with big lights.

OK, I see what you're saying now. Yes, if you composite 5-6 exposures together, then the Speedlites will work in a pinch. When you have multiple pops of light on multiple sections of the car coming from multiple angles, it's hard to blend it all together while making it look natural and convincing. Removing all the hot spots would take about five years, too. With two AB800s, I can get better results in a single exposure. I don't particularly enjoy Photoshop, so the monolights are a much more appealing option :)

Quote
My shot is five stops under metered for the ambient at 100 iso and f8, that s a pretty dramatic ambient drop along with good iso and useful aperture, especially at the distances the car images are framed at.


Different colors and types of paint play a big role in how far a Speedlight will get you.

With a light colored, highly reflective metallic paint and no ambient light to battle, two Speedlites (on on side and one on front of car) works quite well, even at ISO 100 and f/8.

(http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m567/BBNotch/_L3C0001_zpsbd259667.jpg)

With slightly darker colors like this, again with two Speedlites, you have to crank it up to ISO 400 at f/8 even though it's 30 minutes after sunset at this point.

(http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m567/BBNotch/Dodge07.jpg)
 
Throw in a darker color and more ambient light, and suddenly you need ISO 1250 at f/8. The ambient is three to four stops under in this shot.

(http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m567/BBNotch/_L3C8490_zps9631db07.jpg)

Make it a black car, and now you need ISO 1600 at f/8, even though there's zero ambient light at this stage in the evening.

(http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m567/BBNotch/Henehan_34_zps999f7901.jpg)

I love the Speedlites, but they definitely have their limitations. Power is really the secondary issue. The primary benefit of monolights for this type of use is that they give off a far more pleasing quality of light with more favorable fall-off characteristics.

Quote
But don't forget, any studio light using a faked HSS is only providing a fraction of its light power to the exposure, just like speedlites.

Good point. That's why going with my original plan of upgrading to two 1320ws White Lightnings and pulling the ND grads out of the attic might be the best option.
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: jonathan7007 on April 06, 2013, 05:21:47 PM
V8,
Is there a battery solution that works for your outdoor use of two White Lightning monoblocks? How many flashes do these batteries offer as supplied by Paul Buff? (I realize that # affected by power settings on flash heads.)

I keep searching Amazon for a 1000' extension cord <grin>
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: V8Beast on April 07, 2013, 07:37:09 PM
According to Buff's literature, a Vagabond mini will power up to four Bees/White Lightning/Einstein lights. I'd imagine that recycle times would suck with one Vagabond and two of Buff's 660 or 1320ws lights, but they're cheap enough to where it makes sense to get one battery  pack per light. I hate fiddling with extension cords :)
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: V8Beast on September 15, 2013, 04:30:56 PM
(http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m567/BBNotch/Mark3/_L3C3775_zps0bb253c0.jpg)

No HSS with the Odins and White Lightnings, but I'm pleased with the results nonetheless. I still had to crank the ISO up to 400 considering the black subject and the amount of ambient light I was working against, but that's why I get paid the small bucks ;D 
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: neuroanatomist on September 15, 2013, 10:33:12 PM
Great shot!
Title: Re: Phottix Odins, monolights, and HSS
Post by: jonathan7007 on September 16, 2013, 07:06:33 PM
V8, great to see you back!

I bought 4 Einstein heads and a single Vagabond, have shot one or two assignments that called for outdoor power. Looking for similar car challenges way out here on my Pacific rock -- just for fun... owners of great iron here have few commercial aspirations that require spending $$ for a car picture but it looks like so much FUN!

Einsteins put out a LOT of light. Having Balcar attachment standard opens some options past the Buff modifiers, but the Buff materials seem good. Your point about the second or third Vagabond sounds smart and might keep wires out of sight in a more complicated setups.