canon rumors FORUM

Gear Talk => Canon General => Topic started by: Aswah on April 15, 2013, 06:14:25 PM

Title: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: Aswah on April 15, 2013, 06:14:25 PM
I have been lurking on this site for over a year now...  actually since the first rumors of the new 5D Mark III surfaced a while back.  I had been tracking the costs for over a year I planned to buy one when they were originally released.  A series of financial setbacks and other responsibilities prevented this from occurring last year on now is my time to get one.  Actually April 26th I will pull the trigger.  I was excited to see this rebate program was starting and thought top myself, wow... I can save a bit of money.  I had my wish list all set of a very popular NYC camera store and tracked the pricing closely.  Then the rebate program comes along and everyone raises their pricing to offer a rebate which actually makes the price higher than it was before the rebate program.  I have waited so long I may choice to wait longer.  Seriously is anyone fooled by this marketing ploy?  Raise the price than offer rebate to make the illusion of savings.  Only two companies I have seen keep their pricing low.  One scares me because of it's negative customer reviews online and maybe the other will get my business.  It just seems so bogus. 
Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: neuroanatomist on April 15, 2013, 07:18:22 PM
I bought a 600EX-RT a couple of weeks ago.  With the rebate, it's $50 cheaper today. I may just buy another before the rebates end...
Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: Mt Spokane Photography on April 15, 2013, 07:43:52 PM
Its nothing new, been going on for years.  This is the 2nd thread on the subject.
Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: Zen on April 15, 2013, 07:51:16 PM
So don't buy the thing! Wouldn't want to fall for a sham . . .
Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: thepancakeman on April 24, 2013, 01:38:49 PM
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but from my limited observation it seems that this "higher price after rebate than before" is much more prevalent now that Canon has their...um, forgot the exact term, but it's "minimum price" policy in place.

I thought when I watched the rebates before, the net effect was almost always lower prices (not by nearly as much as the rebate, though), whereas now it's not.  And I did notice the the prices of the bodies went up substantially when the rebates started while the lenses seem to be mostly a wash.
Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: J.R. on April 24, 2013, 01:45:40 PM
You guys are lucky to get online rebates / discounts. In my country the online discounts range only between 2-3 per cent of the Canon MRP (which is 30-40 per cent higher than that in the US because of taxes).

The only way to get a good deal is to travel to the national capital, visit the national distributor and get a discount of 8-10 per cent, if at all!
Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: Mt Spokane Photography on April 24, 2013, 02:19:02 PM
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but from my limited observation it seems that this "higher price after rebate than before" is much more prevalent now that Canon has their...um, forgot the exact term, but it's "minimum price" policy in place.

I thought when I watched the rebates before, the net effect was almost always lower prices (not by nearly as much as the rebate, though), whereas now it's not.  And I did notice the the prices of the bodies went up substantially when the rebates started while the lenses seem to be mostly a wash.
The Rebates have been based on the MSRP for a few years now, but way back, they were mail-in rebates and you could strike you best deal and then mail in and hope you got the rebate.  Finally, Canon's Rebate management company went out of business leaving a lot of very unhappy customers without their rebate. Canon made good on them, but it was a PR flop big time.
 
 
Canon then devised the new system whereby the dealer had to give the rebate up front, and then submit a bunch of paperwork to Canon to get credit.  This can be hard on small dealers, since they may be selling below cost and waiting for the rebate to make their loss up. I 'm not sure if it still happens that way.
Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: jon_charron on April 24, 2013, 03:26:07 PM
I don't know about the US, but in Canada, there are pretty strict regulations on that, and the prices have to be raised in advance of the sale price or rebate.  Not sure how long it is anymore, but if I recall, it was more than just a few days.  Same thing if you go into a retailer and they have a sales tag with a regular price, and it's marked down.  The retailer can get into a lot of trouble if they have never offered the item at that regular price. 
Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: dstppy on April 24, 2013, 04:12:25 PM
Cyclically, the retailers raise the price when the rebate comes out . . . SO . . . your best time to buy is the day the rebate goes in before the other price goes up.

FWIW, Newegg w/coupon @ $2765 for the mk3 has been the best online price in recent history.

Unfortunately, for me, that is only $8 than the cost of new clutch and transmission that my mazda is currently in need of.

Do your research; today, $2900 is not bad, $2800 is good for authorized dealers with good return policies.  That will change.
Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: unfocused on April 24, 2013, 04:16:43 PM
Okay, this has been discussed and explained a number of times before. Even Helen at Adorama has provided input in the past. Basically, Canon has the right to set a Minimum Advertised Price and they require retailers to honor that or they can't participate in the rebates.

The key is the "advertised" price, which isn't always the actual sales price. I don't pretend to fully understand all the rules, but it's what enables retailers to offer special deals through sites like this and through eBay without violating the minimum advertised price rules. It's also what forces retailers to use the "add to cart" option to get to the real price.

Bottom line: the market sets the price. Canon tries to control the prices through Minimum Advertised Price and rebate programs. They are doing this to protect their dealer network, but the dealers can only sell the product at the price the market will bear.

Rebates or not, the same rules always apply: be a smart buyer and comparison shop using the online resources available to you. Know what's a fair price and balance any savings against the reputation of, and your own experience with, the seller.
Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: Deva on April 24, 2013, 04:22:05 PM
I can't comment on the experience elsewhere, but here in the UK, the very useful site www.camerapricebuster.co.uk (http://www.camerapricebuster.co.uk) provides graphs of the prices of all Canon equipment on sale - it's very useful for spotting the odd bargain without having to trawl round a load of sites.

What you can see, however, is that there hasn't been any hike in prices in response to the rebate program - for example, the 8-15mm has been available at the same price since December, the 17-40mm the same price since November, others have varied - but randomly, with no significant hikes. (And with no evidence, incidentally, for the concept of January sales when it comes to Canon lenses!)
Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: CTJohn on April 24, 2013, 04:48:11 PM
It's a stupid program.  Promotions should stimulate purchases, rather than anger customers.  I bought a 6D from B&H a week before the most recent rebates were announced...paid $1779 for the body, SDHC card, and camera case package.  I was not happy to hear a rebate program was coming.   But...under the new rebate program, the rest of you can buy the same package with Canon rebate for $1899 today. 

I guess I'll try to buy when no rebate program is offered in the future.
Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: zim on April 24, 2013, 04:59:34 PM
I can't comment on the experience elsewhere, but here in the UK, the very useful site www.camerapricebuster.co.uk (http://www.camerapricebuster.co.uk) provides graphs of the prices of all Canon equipment on sale - it's very useful for spotting the odd bargain without having to trawl round a load of sites.

What you can see, however, is that there hasn't been any hike in prices in response to the rebate program - for example, the 8-15mm has been available at the same price since December, the 17-40mm the same price since November, others have varied - but randomly, with no significant hikes. (And with no evidence, incidentally, for the concept of January sales when it comes to Canon lenses!)

That's not quite the case, I've been following prices very closely and body prices did go up, here's the 6D graph
Same thing happens in UK
Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: jebrady03 on April 24, 2013, 05:15:57 PM
I can't believe I'm commenting on a dead horse thread - but I've got my verbal bat ready so here it goes...

Check Canon's website.  The MSRP for equipment rarely changes.  THAT is what Canon has said is the price of the equipment.  Online retailers offer lower prices to encourage buyers to buy from them and they're able to achieve this through volume and I'm sure, pricing breaks from Canon.  So, their DAILY PRICE is already discounted much of the time (not always though - especially with new stuff).
Canon has said that retailers may offer a rebate off of the MSRP - NOT off of any price they want (errr... internet complainers want).  Canon puts some advertising muscle into these rebates so if the retailers want to be able to cash in on that muscle, they need to adhere to the program.
So, get used to it.  It's not changing.
Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: jthomson on April 24, 2013, 05:48:38 PM
I bought  a 1.4x III from B&H under the rebate program. 
Definitely savings from the price before the rebate.
Not a  $50 dollar savings  as there price was already less than the MSRP, but check the cart,
$499- $50 rebate  = $429
They certainly have passed on savings over and above the rebate.

If you don't like the price  don't buy.
Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: thepancakeman on April 24, 2013, 05:57:24 PM
I don't quite get the animosity in this thread, other than maybe that some people have been griping about the rebate program or "getting ripped off".  I think there's plenty of room for honest discussion of when the best prices occur for Canon equipment and in this case specifically evaluating that question against their rebate program.

Obviously if you need the equipment, then buy it.  But for the cost conscious consumer who is more intent on finding the best (or at least a very good) deal, it's a simple question:  does the current state of Canon rebates and MAP lead to a true savings, a cost hike, or a wash over market prices during non rebate periods?
Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: LetTheRightLensIn on April 24, 2013, 07:08:53 PM
I have been lurking on this site for over a year now...  actually since the first rumors of the new 5D Mark III surfaced a while back.  I had been tracking the costs for over a year I planned to buy one when they were originally released.  A series of financial setbacks and other responsibilities prevented this from occurring last year on now is my time to get one.  Actually April 26th I will pull the trigger.  I was excited to see this rebate program was starting and thought top myself, wow... I can save a bit of money.  I had my wish list all set of a very popular NYC camera store and tracked the pricing closely.  Then the rebate program comes along and everyone raises their pricing to offer a rebate which actually makes the price higher than it was before the rebate program.  I have waited so long I may choice to wait longer.  Seriously is anyone fooled by this marketing ploy?  Raise the price than offer rebate to make the illusion of savings.  Only two companies I have seen keep their pricing low.  One scares me because of it's negative customer reviews online and maybe the other will get my business.  It just seems so bogus.

Yeah it happens a lot with these, not for all items from all stories every time, but I do see that a lot. Often it is a complete or partial sham (where the prices end up being anywhere from slightly less but not full rebate less to the same to even more than pre-rebate).
Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: LetTheRightLensIn on April 24, 2013, 07:11:27 PM
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but from my limited observation it seems that this "higher price after rebate than before" is much more prevalent now that Canon has their...um, forgot the exact term, but it's "minimum price" policy in place.

I thought when I watched the rebates before, the net effect was almost always lower prices (not by nearly as much as the rebate, though), whereas now it's not.  And I did notice the the prices of the bodies went up substantially when the rebates started while the lenses seem to be mostly a wash.
The Rebates have been based on the MSRP for a few years now, but way back, they were mail-in rebates and you could strike you best deal and then mail in and hope you got the rebate.  Finally, Canon's Rebate management company went out of business leaving a lot of very unhappy customers without their rebate. Canon made good on them, but it was a PR flop big time.
 
 
Canon then devised the new system whereby the dealer had to give the rebate up front, and then submit a bunch of paperwork to Canon to get credit.  This can be hard on small dealers, since they may be selling below cost and waiting for the rebate to make their loss up. I 'm not sure if it still happens that way.

Basically their rebates went from an indirect sham (realllly poor rebate company that would always try to pretend that you hadn't sent in this or that when you had and it'd be almost a year by the time you sent it or copies of all in 2 or 3 times and got the cash, if you were unlucky, if you were persistent you did always get the full rebate though) to an upfront sham :D.

Bad Canon.
Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: backcountrygirl on April 29, 2013, 03:13:01 PM
I agree. It is a bit of a sham, but I think there's more too it than that.
I believe Canon is having a problem selling it's 6D. They need to create a larger market for the new entry level
full frame so what they did was to create a larger gap in prices between the 6D and the 5D Mark III. Canon raises the prices slightly for the 5D Mark III, and they lower the price slightly with the 6D since it's entry level price of $2099. Yes, it was a smoke screen that Canon preformed here by Raising the prices and tossing out a rebate at the same time. Even Big Value is having a problem with selling the 5D Mark III now. They've been stuck on a quantity sold of 370 for the last 5 days. They too have raised prices, but in the end it's all about profit and creating markets.
With Canon trying to create this larger gap between the 6D and the 5D Mark III, it's going to allow Nikon to gain a larger market share of the DSLR overall market.
To be honest, there are lots of comparisons between the 5D Mark III and the Nikon D800. When you get right down to it, you really have to nit pick the heck out of the differences unless you include video. ( Canon is much better ) As of today you can get a Canon 5D Mark III for roughly $3299 from either of the big retailers out of New York. ( At the end of March you could get a 5D Mark III from the big boys at $2949 ) You can go to the same retailers and get the Nikon D800 for about $2796. A $500 difference between Nikon and Canon???
I love my Canon, but I question the strategy behind creating this new entry level extended price gap. It's going to hurt sales versus create sales by allowing Nikon to price gap the differences of the Canon strategy.

Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: Vossie on April 29, 2013, 03:35:39 PM
On May 1 a rebate program in The Netherlands (and maybe some otherq European countries as well) will start. The 24-70 2.8 Ii has €300 in cah back! Time for me to get one. Over here you need to send in the original barcode to get your money back.

Have bought a lot of stuff under these programs. If you can wait with a purchase its an attractive construction.
Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: jcns on April 29, 2013, 05:45:19 PM
yes many fall for this marketing strategy
Canon is not the only one that uses this strategy.  Macy's for example has been doing this for more than 15 years.
Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: backcountrygirl on April 29, 2013, 07:11:55 PM
BrokenArrow... You're totally right!
My background is marketing and adverting too. ;)
The Canon smoke screen/BS is indeed a junior marketing move. I kinda laughed when I saw what they were doing. Your also right when it comes to other companies that try to pull the same method of marketing. Your mention of Macy's was your example.
My issue isn't about bashing Canon products. I love my camera's and lenses!
My point is that by attempting to develop a lower entry full frame camera market, Canon has created a price gap which will help Nikon slide right in and take market share of the low to mid level professional camera equipment.
Is it a smart move to develop a new entry level full frame market with a larger price gap to the 5D Mark III due to lower than expected sales with the 6D or, do you lower the price gap to protect your market share?
It's a huge gamble, and I can't see them winning on this type of marketing strategy since as I mentioned before... the Nikon D800 and the Canon 5D Mark III are very similar to one another with the Nikon being $500 less.
Toss in the increase of smartphone camera's, and I'd be concentrating on keeping my market share.
Like the old saying goes... Money talks and BS walks...
I hope Canon cuts the price gap, and continues with providing great products to the loyal brand customers.


Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: BrokenArrow on April 30, 2013, 12:36:51 PM
The squeeze on the P&S digitals is going to increase to a merge with phones, you can see it coming.  I have two daughters for instance who have P&S units and DSLR's, good ones, from both Canon and Nikon, lounging in their closets because a real camera, of any kind, is just one more hassle when you have small children in tow and their iPhones, for them, do a passable job, even better than passable. 

Let me engage in some speculation.  From a pricing strategy standpoint Canon is heading for a box canyon kicking and screaming and making mistakes IMHO.  If they really wanted to put the big hurt on Nikon and everyone else (who likely have higher cost structures from lower volume), they would significantly push down the DX cameras to try and increase revenue there as P&S goes away, move the crippled and decontented FX like 6D initially to just under say, $1499, to meet that point that the 7D occupied at one time.  What about the 70D you ask?  I might be bold enough to offer the 70D for say, $1399, just enough above the N7100 to imply it is better and a feature set that outshines the 6D just like now and then start squeezing Nikon, who can't possibly have my economies of scale, to perhaps make them less profitable, but not predatorially so, as they squirm with the continuing degradation of the P&S business.  Canon is sitting there thinking that they are still on the front end of the life-cycle curve with things like the III and 6D and, speculating again, it is sneaking up on them.  I smell panic.  And mistakes.



Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: BrokenArrow on April 30, 2013, 12:43:54 PM
One missed thought - Moving the pricing frame down, as detailed above, also then allows for the III to come down to meet the D800.  Yes, we would
have to plot the volume curves and calculus to see if it makes sense business-wise.  Speculation on my part as I said but doing so would give the Nikon guys
the sleepless nights instead of Canon central.  And if I were them, I would worry a great deal more about the 70D slice (volume) and continuing leadership in
DX than I would about those halos farther up.
Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: awinphoto on April 30, 2013, 02:37:36 PM
yawn....  Hasn't the retail industry done this for YEARS?!?  With just about everything?  From clothes to shoes to TV's...  Watch, coming up you will have mothers day then fathers day then memorial day sales...  Prices goes up incrementally just in time for the "SALE"...  Sometimes you get some good deals...  Adorama and BH are a tad more even keel in these regards, but even they got fluxuations, especially on older products (2-3 years old)...  Sometimes you can get an even better deal by getting bundles and such...  It is what it is...
Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: Chuck Alaimo on April 30, 2013, 03:46:54 PM
The grass is always greener right on the other side?  Whenever I see threads like this I like to check the amazon top sellers list.  It's currently dominated by Canon.  12 of the top 20 selling bodies are canons - 8 are nikons.  The 6d body only is ranked at 12th, 6d with kit lens ranked at 13th, and the 5d3 ranked at 14th.

In the next rung down ranked 20-40, canon has 8 , nikon 11, panasonic slips in there with 1 --- the d800 ranks at 26, and, the d600 sneaks in at 37th.  Oddly, the aged 7d is ranked higher than the d800. 

What many here are also seeming to forget is that nikon created the same problem for themselves with pro/entry level FF bodies ---5d3/6d - d800/d600.  While we ague about the spec sheet for each of these bodies, consumers are buying more of the canon's than the nikons.

I still fully believe that nikon played a gamble and may be shooting themselves in the foot with their pricing strategy.  I can't be certain on this ---but... it kind of points towards 2 things ---

a) nikon saved enough on R&D by outsourcing their exmor sensor that they can sell it at under 3k and still make a profit,

or,

b) nikon should have priced the d800 closer to the mk3, but is selling it as a loss leader in order to snag market share and make up the loss with periphery equipment (lenses, flashes, etc, etc).

The problem with the B option is that they are getting flip flop buyers!!!  Some (and this is most likely the minority due to cost) of these people are investing in both systems, because both have their uses.  But many are just flipping - selling gear bag A for gear bag B.  Banking on flip floppers is a dangerous game, why, because they've flipped once so they'll do it again!  What happens in the next cycle?  Canon launches their big MP camera, if it's 46 MP with new sensor process and boat loads of DR, what are all those people who sold canon gear to go d800 gonna do, they will most likely repeat the process!!!!



 

Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: BrokenArrow on May 01, 2013, 01:14:41 AM


I respect the fact that you gentlemen must have been on the board for a long time.  I admire and have bought Canon gear, I'm guessing,  for longer than you have unless you were gripping a Canon Pellix with a low light meter  in its hot shoe in 1969 (somebody should smack Sony for acting like the partially silvered mirror is a new invention of theirs).  I know that you must have ridden out a hundred flame wars over the time as you tried to help others here.  But some of us just got here, we don"t have the advantage of that history and, yes, we were exercised by what we see as marketing ineptitude.  As a career  marketing professional (high tech and Defense) I think I, and others, have a right to an opinion without being mocked, put down or belittled.  After reading the praise of Canon and the world-weary-intellectual, mocking condemnations of those with the temerity to question dogma, I begin to wonder what drives you.  I mean, do you work for Canon or wear a sign around your necks that says, "Please, charge me whatever you want, I already know it is the best."  Canon is indeed best in many cases, but not always, and not to the extent of shouting heresy! when there is discussion, especially by newbies like me or backcountrygirl, of other brands or products.  That's not likely to incentivize Canon to maintain some pricing sanity and it's not in your own best interests. That's religion you've got there brothers.  And you won't win many converts to your faith by trying to be the cool kids mocking others.
Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: backcountrygirl on May 01, 2013, 07:01:56 PM
I understand your thoughts, BrokenArrow. I've been lurking on this site for a long time before I actually signed on, and I know there are those that have been around longer than I have.
This has nothing to do against the Canon products. That's all I own... Some may know more about the Canon products, and that's fine with me too. We always need to continue our learning. However... with my background in retail advertising and marketing I'll also call it as I see it. This last rebate/price thing that happened during this so called "rebate program" I feel was backhanded gesture by Canon. That's how I personally felt about it, and I know there are more that felt the same way. Remember... I didn't start this thread. ;)
Canon shouldn't play myself or, any other loyal customer as stupid. That's what this rebate program amounts to. Now since they left this huge price discrepancy between certain camera models, I expect Nikon to gain more market share. How much more? Well... Big Value is still at a quantity of 370 5D Mark III sold, and that number hasn't changed in the last 7 days now. In marketing and advertising numbers are huge! Big Value's stuck at 370 tells me plenty.
With how Canon came across with this so called "rebate program", Canon's way of playing the loyal customers, and with this price gap in camera models between Canon and Nikon I've decided to set up my big fan. It's just a matter of time when a certain substance hits that fan. Just say'n...
It will play out that either Canon loses market share in the higher end cropped frame/entry to mid level full frame camera's or, Canon drops the prices. I guess we'll see which scenario plays out.
Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: BrokenArrow on May 02, 2013, 02:09:03 PM
Big Value is still at a quantity of 370 5D Mark III sold, and that number hasn't changed in the last 7 days now.


Something to consider though, as always, you have to be careful when somebody tells you HIS numbers.  I have wondered how Big Value and those others undercut the big houses and notice, with those two or three outlets, that they claim they are USA versions with proper warranty.  If I was B&H or Ador I would be screaming my head off to Canon about why they are forcing me to maintain this MAP when they don't.  One humorous possibility here is that is exactly what is happening.  So Canon calls Big Value and says, hey, knock it off.  BV responds saying, hey, this pig is not selling anyway even at my prices, drop the dang price.  Then BV stops showing any more sold on that "sold this many but more than 10 are remaining" line.  haha  The more interesting number would be the quantity trend at the big houses.  But does Macy's tell Gimbles?  Oh hell no.   I suppose if we wanted to talk disasters sometime we can talk about Canon M! I honestly feel sorry for him/her whoever they are.  In the South (note caps) we would say, "Well bless their hearts...".    ::)
Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: Chuck Alaimo on May 02, 2013, 02:21:30 PM
Big Value is still at a quantity of 370 5D Mark III sold, and that number hasn't changed in the last 7 days now.


Something to consider though, as always, you have to be careful when somebody tells you HIS numbers.  I have wondered how Big Value and those others undercut the big houses and notice, with those two or three outlets, that they claim they are USA versions with proper warranty.  If I was B&H or Ador I would be screaming my head off to Canon about why they are forcing me to maintain this MAP when they don't.  One humorous possibility here is that is exactly what is happening.  So Canon calls Big Value and says, hey, knock it off.  BV responds saying, hey, this pig is not selling anyway even at my prices, drop the dang price.  Then BV stops showing any more sold on that "sold this many but more than 10 are remaining" line.  haha  The more interesting number would be the quantity trend at the big houses.  But does Macy's tell Gimbles?  Oh hell no.   I suppose if we wanted to talk disasters sometime we can talk about Canon M! I honestly feel sorry for him/her whoever they are.  In the South (note caps) we would say, "Well bless their hearts...".    ::)

Amazon top sellers list --- 5d3 today isranked at 13th (body only)...6d is ranked at 10th (body and kit lens), and at 15th (body only.  D800 comes in at 20th -- and the d600 comes in at 28th --- the 7d is at 19th ---12 canons in the top 20...nikon has 8....Sounds to me like canon is selling camers!!!
Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: BrokenArrow on May 02, 2013, 04:42:32 PM
Not to disagree as I have no reason to do so.  But, like my warning above, you have to be careful with numbers.  As in the matter of what place one holds or what percentage of sales of this and that.....we don't know the quantities we're talking about.  And unless you do those metrics Amazon reports don't really help us much.  From the data provided we could be talking about 28 cameras or 28,000 cameras.  In the 28,000 case maybe you are having a bottle of DP with your significant other tonight but in the other case you may be putting a gun to your head.
Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: backcountrygirl on May 02, 2013, 06:03:54 PM


Amazon top sellers list --- 5d3 today isranked at 13th (body only)...6d is ranked at 10th (body and kit lens), and at 15th (body only.  D800 comes in at 20th -- and the d600 comes in at 28th --- the 7d is at 19th ---12 canons in the top 20...nikon has 8....Sounds to me like canon is selling camers!!!
[/quote]

Amazon's top seller list is ranked over a long period of time. It's has nothing to do with today's sales or, this weeks numbers.

Big Value is shown on Ebay. Big Value can't fudge those numbers. Those numbers are generated by Ebay.
I totally understand the "big house" numbers would be intriguing, but for a low cost seller it's interesting that they haven't sold one in over a week. Maybe being an non-authorized vendor has something to do with it?
However... they have sold 370 in the past.

BTW... Get it Digital is at a quantity of 20. Just for the record... ;) They happen to sell on Ebay too.
I'm just going to sit back and watch both of those vendors. Let's see what happens if these two vendors drop their prices from where they are now.
Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: backcountrygirl on May 02, 2013, 11:03:16 PM
Buy what you want - and go back to lurking.  No one on this forum controls the prices charged by stores.  If you have a question we will be glad to answer it - I have learned a lot from others on this forum.  But forget the cheap shots, the are simply cheap

Thank you for that personal attack, RGF!
First of all... what cheap shot?
Who said people on this forum controls the prices charged by the stores?
If you would take the time to read the posts, this was about how Canon themselves have set prices/raised prices, and created a rebate program which was questionable.
These are all facts!
If you want to enter an opinion based upon what this thread was about, please do.
Ciao...
Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: BrokenArrow on May 02, 2013, 11:21:37 PM
We are simply talking the marketing of photography here, as professionals, and I think that's a valid thing to do on this forum and central to the affordability of our hobby.  We are not trying to attack the products or anyone here and, as far as sales and the selling of Canon are concerned, we are talking about facts to the extent that we can discern them.  We LIKE the equipment, we BUY the equipment but it's not a religion to us. It's just a conversation.  So use rudeness if that's the way you are but your intimidation of others only cheapens this board and won't get the results you want. 
Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: Chuck Alaimo on May 03, 2013, 02:06:31 PM


Amazon top sellers list --- 5d3 today isranked at 13th (body only)...6d is ranked at 10th (body and kit lens), and at 15th (body only.  D800 comes in at 20th -- and the d600 comes in at 28th --- the 7d is at 19th ---12 canons in the top 20...nikon has 8....Sounds to me like canon is selling camers!!!

Amazon's top seller list is ranked over a long period of time. It's has nothing to do with today's sales or, this weeks numbers.

Big Value is shown on Ebay. Big Value can't fudge those numbers. Those numbers are generated by Ebay.
I totally understand the "big house" numbers would be intriguing, but for a low cost seller it's interesting that they haven't sold one in over a week. Maybe being an non-authorized vendor has something to do with it?
However... they have sold 370 in the past.

BTW... Get it Digital is at a quantity of 20. Just for the record... ;) They happen to sell on Ebay too.
I'm just going to sit back and watch both of those vendors. Let's see what happens if these two vendors drop their prices from where they are now.
[/quote]

I use amazon as a source to see how things are going because it's big and its universal...  I have never heard of big value and rarely shop via ebay, I just don't trust it..I especially don't trust it when it comes to items that cost more than a grand.  That's not to say I won't buy used product, but --- when I do it's through B&H or adorama, ordering from them I trust what I'll get, on ebay, not so trusting. 


Eitherway, the fact that on amazon, one of the biggest retailers in the world, the 5d3 is and 6d is holding it's own in the top 20 states volumes to me.  Look at the cost other bodies in the top 20, from 1-20

1)  $492.00
2)  $799
3)  $639
4)  $374
5) $1196
6)  $446
7)  $579
8)  $596
9)  $546
10)  $2398 (6d with kit lens)
11)  $996
12)  $799
13)  $900
14)  $3298 (5d3 body only)
15)  $1248
16)  $799
17)  $796
18)  $546
19)  $1899 (6d body only)
20)  $518

See a theme here?  Lot's of sub-$1000 bodies, which is as a list like this should be.  The anomalies here are that any 2K priced body makes it on the top 20 when its competing against sub-1K bodies.  I would have expected the 5d3 to be ranked in the 20-40 range, not holding in there at 14th when everything around it in sales is 2 grand less!!!!!

Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: Chuck Alaimo on May 03, 2013, 02:36:49 PM
Buy what you want - and go back to lurking.  No one on this forum controls the prices charged by stores.  If you have a question we will be glad to answer it - I have learned a lot from others on this forum.  But forget the cheap shots, the are simply cheap

Thank you for that personal attack, RGF!
First of all... what cheap shot?
Who said people on this forum controls the prices charged by the stores?
If you would take the time to read the posts, this was about how Canon themselves have set prices/raised prices, and created a rebate program which was questionable.
These are all facts!
If you want to enter an opinion based upon what this thread was about, please do.
Ciao...

I think 2 things here, first, take a chill pill, go use your camera and enjoy it!..Second...Canon and the rebates  vs how individual retailers price and sell the product ---it takes 2 to tango here.  While I dislike Canon's enforcement of MAP pricing, I get why it's there and there is nothing I can do about it so it's best to just deal with it.  But, when you see things like what just happened over the last month with the 6d (same deal, but now about a hundred more with rebate) --- that's the retailer doing that!!!!

Specific retailer - B&H.  For about a month you could snag the 6d, with a bad and a memory card for $1799 (of course you had to put it in the cart to see the price because canon wants them to charge $2100).  Now, good till may 11th, same deal (6d, bag, 16gig sd card) for $1899 with rebate!.  Is it $100 more than last month?  yes.  But --- it's still $200 less than the MAP price.  Is that canons doing?  No!!!!!  That's b&h's doing!@!!!  B&H knows what the MAP price is, and they know what their wholesaler cost is - they know how to price it to make a profit and even if it costs more, rebate draws attention --they can advertise that because it's canon official (note - they can advertise the rebate, but they can't blast ad's saying it's $1899 --- they say $100 rebate, add to cart to see final price...

Back to reality now...why fret over this so much?  Wouldn't it be so much more productive to go shoot and enjoy the images you get from your camera than to be angry over the price?  I bought my 5d3 last july, full price of $3500.  I don't regret a moment of that decision.  The weddings I have shot with it are just magical, the versatility to shoot without flash in almost any situation just blows my mind. 

We are simply talking the marketing of photography here, as professionals, and I think that's a valid thing to do on this forum and central to the affordability of our hobby.  We are not trying to attack the products or anyone here and, as far as sales and the selling of Canon are concerned, we are talking about facts to the extent that we can discern them.  We LIKE the equipment, we BUY the equipment but it's not a religion to us. It's just a conversation.  So use rudeness if that's the way you are but your intimidation of others only cheapens this board and won't get the results you want. 

I don't get it...are you talking as a professional?  Or is this a hobby?  Not a stab but, if your a pro you don't fret so much over the cost, you fret over what the capabilities are and what level of improvement you'll see in what you buy.  That's why studio/landscape folks dislike the 5d3 and don't feel it's worth it ---they want better IQ and DR at base ISO.  For them the value is just not there.  For a wedding/event shooter, the ability to shoot without worry between ISO 6400-12,800 is huge....less flash, more ambient light = more pleasing shots that capture the feel of the moment.  This is why I ask ---are you commenting as a pro or a hobbyist?     
Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: Mt Spokane Photography on May 03, 2013, 02:50:36 PM

I use amazon as a source to see how things are going because it's big and its universal...  I have never heard of big value and rarely shop via ebay, I just don't trust it..I especially don't trust it when it comes to items that cost more than a grand.  That's not to say I won't buy used product, but --- when I do it's through B&H or adorama, ordering from them I trust what I'll get, on ebay, not so trusting. 

I buy from Adorama on ebay all the time, and other big name sellers also use ebay.  I've never had a issue, and I've bought many thousands worth.
 
With ebay, its just a matter of being careful.  Use your credit card, and check into a company that you do not know about.
 
As to Big Value selling 370 bodies, they have sold more than that in one day.   They sold 500 in a few hours last fall when the price dropped to $2600.
 
Big Value has listed the 5D MK III over and over.  The 370 number is from just one of their many listings of the 5D MK III.
Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: backcountrygirl on May 03, 2013, 04:34:45 PM
Quote
I buy from Adorama on ebay all the time, and other big name sellers also use ebay.  I've never had a issue, and I've bought many thousands worth.
 
With ebay, its just a matter of being careful.  Use your credit card, and check into a company that you do not know about.
 
As to Big Value selling 370 bodies, they have sold more than that in one day.   They sold 500 in a few hours last fall when the price dropped to $2600.
 
Big Value has listed the 5D MK III over and over.  The 370 number is from just one of their many listings of the 5D MK III.

That is a good point, Mt. Spokane!
However... the link to Big Value that you provide on this site is for one listing. That quantity number hasn't changed in over 8 days now. Big Value has a second listing which includes a memory card. On that listing they have 73 sold at the moment.
It's important to have baseline numbers. That's why I've listed numbers as a fact with a time frame. Listing numbers by themselves do you no good. You need to monitor the numbers on each day to give yourself a track record.
Thanks for bringing that up!

Let me reply to Chuck if I may...
I'm a professional photographer too. My background also deals with advertising and marketing. As a professional photographer yourself, you realize more than others that 20% of your time is spent behind the camera, and the other 80% is about post/business related things.
As part of my 80% I need to watch my costs. Equipment costs are things I can control to a certain degree. That degree is when you purchase at the right time, and if your getting value with your purchase.
What stood out like a sore thumb to me is how a camera such as the 5D Mark III being on the market for over a year now went up in price? The rebate was added to somehow disguise that price move. It truly perplexed me as a advertising and marketing person/background that Canon would do that?
Let me explain...
Rumor has it that Canon has a larger MP camera ready to launch sometime in the near future. Why would you raise the price of the 5D Mark III being over a year old, and lower the price of the 6D which is the newest full frame camera Canon has come out with?
Is the reason to place the 5D Mark III between the 6D, and the upcoming large MP camera?
Interesting thought, isn't it???
My other point was that there's a huge price gap between the 5D Mark III and the 6D which will allow Nikon to take advantage with the D800. The D800 price fits right between the 5D Mark III and the 6D, and the D800 is  $500 less than the 5D Mark III.
Chuck, I appreciate the time you took to gather up the amazon numbers. I think you need to have a base time frame/ranking to see how they will change in the next week, month etc... Thank for doing that!
In the end, an open discussion with facts should always be welcomed. My posts weren't intended to stir the pot. It was only intended to point out changes in regards to the flip flop marketing and advertising Canon was doing.
So... Is Canon positioning themselves with prices before the big MP comes out or, did Canon allow Nikon to get more market share? I guess with some baseline numbers with a few things I guess we'll wait and see.
Ciao...
Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: Chuck Alaimo on May 03, 2013, 05:00:11 PM
Quote
I buy from Adorama on ebay all the time, and other big name sellers also use ebay.  I've never had a issue, and I've bought many thousands worth.
 
With ebay, its just a matter of being careful.  Use your credit card, and check into a company that you do not know about.
 
As to Big Value selling 370 bodies, they have sold more than that in one day.   They sold 500 in a few hours last fall when the price dropped to $2600.
 
Big Value has listed the 5D MK III over and over.  The 370 number is from just one of their many listings of the 5D MK III.

That is a good point, Mt. Spokane!
However... the link to Big Value that you provide on this site is for one listing. That quantity number hasn't changed in over 8 days now. Big Value has a second listing which includes a memory card. On that listing they have 73 sold at the moment.
It's important to have baseline numbers. That's why I've listed numbers as a fact with a time frame. Listing numbers by themselves do you no good. You need to monitor the numbers on each day to give yourself a track record.
Thanks for bringing that up!

Let me reply to Chuck if I may...
I'm a professional photographer too. My background also deals with advertising and marketing. As a professional photographer yourself, you realize more than others that 20% of your time is spent behind the camera, and the other 80% is about post/business related things.
As part of my 80% I need to watch my costs. Equipment costs are things I can control to a certain degree. That degree is when you purchase at the right time, and if your getting value with your purchase.
What stood out like a sore thumb to me is how a camera such as the 5D Mark III being on the market for over a year now went up in price? The rebate was added to somehow disguise that price move. It truly perplexed me as a advertising and marketing person/background that Canon would do that?
Let me explain...
Rumor has it that Canon has a larger MP camera ready to launch sometime in the near future. Why would you raise the price of the 5D Mark III being over a year old, and lower the price of the 6D which is the newest full frame camera Canon has come out with?
Is the reason to place the 5D Mark III between the 6D, and the upcoming large MP camera?
Interesting thought, isn't it???
My other point was that there's a huge price gap between the 5D Mark III and the 6D which will allow Nikon to take advantage with the D800. The D800 price fits right between the 5D Mark III and the 6D, and the D800 is  $500 less than the 5D Mark III.
Chuck, I appreciate the time you took to gather up the amazon numbers. I think you need to have a base time frame/ranking to see how they will change in the next week, month etc... Thank for doing that!
In the end, an open discussion with facts should always be welcomed. My posts weren't intended to stir the pot. It was only intended to point out changes in regards to the flip flop marketing and advertising Canon was doing.
So... Is Canon positioning themselves with prices before the big MP comes out or, did Canon allow Nikon to get more market share? I guess with some baseline numbers with a few things I guess we'll wait and see.
Ciao...

Hey hey, thanks fort he well tempered reply.  I am not like angry or anything, as you know when on forums its hard to decipher the tone of the writer....

As to 5d3 cost and fluctuations - Like I said, i paid the full $3500 for mine, and when I look at the weddings I got to shoot with it vs not having it for that period of time (shooting with a 7d mind you) because I was waiting to save a couple hundred on the purchase...the latter outweighs the former.  I could have waited till fall and jumped on the $2800 deals, but that's 10+ weddings of shooting with a 7d - which no doubt I would have done the best I possibly could with that 7d, but wow, night and day difference between the 5d3 and the 7d. 

Now I am on the bargain hunt though because I need to add a backup/secondary body to the bag - with a 5d3 in hand I can play the waiting game --- right nowt he clock is running ---a refurb mk3 vs a $1900 6d.  So what you buy and when you buy, it's really subjective to the user.  With a great primary body I can hunt for the best price...but if I was still on the 7d...a few hundred saved pales in comparison to shooting with the best tools in the peak of the wedding season. 

As to positioning vs nikon and what may lay ahead, I still fully believe that the price of the d800 is dictated by - reduced cost in R&D due to outsourcing to sony, or they are selling it at a near lost to attract those in the niche canon isn't currently filling (could be a combo of both!!!)

I think the falling price of the 6d is because Nikon really hit canon out of left with with the d600.  But --- the price difference between the d600 and d800 is so close that people are bypassing the d600 in favor of the d800.   It's odd too, because the d600 isn't exactly selling like hotcakes - but - it does force canon to allow 6d sales for less than they intended (remeber back before the 6d - new 5d2's were still selling between $1800-2100).

Big MP body...this one is still in the land of giant who knows....will it be a 5d style body and launch in the $3000-4000 range?  Or will it be in a 1 series style and launch in the $7000-9000 range?  If the rumors are right and it's in the 45+ MP range... it's definitely closer to Medium format competition...but that's still in the land of who the heck knows other than the top brass at canon....Neither option is announced yet though so if I may venture a guess...Canon may be trying to get as much margin out of the current line up as they can...
Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: BrokenArrow on May 03, 2013, 06:57:59 PM
For Chuck - I am a career business and marketing professional - mostly tech products of one sort or another.  I'm responsible for identifying market opportunities, funding the tech investigation and market validation before moving on, or not, through any R&D required, if any, to engineering and production.  As the marketing side I, or someone who works for me, have to take responsibility for being part of the program management team to make sure the envisioned product requirements do not get lost in the give and take and other compromises that have to be made in either development or production engineering where it can easily run off the rails. 

Many things can go wrong even while many capable and well-intentioned people work at making the program a success.   It could be that, unless there is great care taken, the specs don't end up meeting the market requirement in terms of expectations or competition or that the materials and other costs end up outside the earlier cost/pricing projection in which case it might not meet the expected return on investment.  It then has to be decided whether to roll up the whole program, even with the large amount of money that has been spent, rather than risk market failure, financial loss and damage to the brand.  This happens more than you might imagine. If everything goes well, marketing has to make the final pricing decisions, decide on a launch campaign, be sure the parts and maintenance people are up to snuff before the roll-out, determine the inventory to be held for both shipment and potential returns and a hundred other things that keep you up at night.  Not to be forgotten is how much of current product that will be obsoleted (but is still on dealer shelves) and how to deal with that to minimize the pain to the distributors.  There really is no end to it.  When people as me what I do I tell them I get paid to worry.  And that's about the size of it.  So I'm not a photographic professional, perhaps as you are,  I'm a hobbyist in that regard but I know how to build and sell things like these within certain boundaries so, yes, I feel I can discuss these matters in a professional way.
Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: pwp on May 03, 2013, 08:13:30 PM
First world problem...

-PW
Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: BrokenArrow on May 04, 2013, 11:17:49 AM
haha Eloquently stated PW, well done!  Happy Saturday.  You are absolutely right in this case as this is precisely the process that a very advanced first-world, Japanese company like Canon must go through to get our beloved devices to market and people on this side of the Pacific to get them sold to we rabble.  Nearly post-industrial but not quite.  Talking first world versus developing world in this context does, I think,  provide a look at a better management process for providing all kinds of development aid to others in this world who need it.  If we used this much discipline in helping others rather than the failed "big aid" approaches of the last 60 years, more people would have been helped and it would more likely be sustainable.  In hoping to do some good in my "old age" I have completed two graduate degrees in International Affairs and Nonprofit Management and hope to apply some of that business experience in service to an NGO.  You have to believe that great photography by a lot of artists over the years, from NatGeo and untold other photojournalists, has helped instill that feeling in all of us as we were presented with the reality of the suffering of others.  That, in itself, would make for a great advertising series if it hasn't already been done.
Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: Harry Muff on May 09, 2013, 03:12:28 PM
Got my cheque for £160 today. I is happy.   8)
Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: thepancakeman on May 09, 2013, 03:44:30 PM
I don't mean this sarcastically at all, this is an honest question:

Do we expect the rebates to end at their scheduled date?  (At which point I'm hoping the body prices will drop back to their pre-rebate levels.)
Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: BrokenArrow on May 11, 2013, 01:10:32 PM
I don't think anyone can do more than guess on that at this time Pancakeman.  I answered your post to say that I too keep an S100 with me all the time and have enjoyed it very much.  Does surprisingly good work for quick macro shots as well.  Canon already extended the "rebate" program once IIRC which would indicate to me that it is working to their satisfaction.  But there could be many other reasons.  We'll just have to watch over time.
Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: dgatwood on May 11, 2013, 03:47:45 PM

Here's what I've seen (and this may vary from product to product): Canon puts out the rebate.  Everyone raises their prices to the MAP so that they are eligible to participate.  Except Amazon.  Amazon lowers their price to what everyone else's price would be with the rebate.  Amazon eats the cost difference, but utterly destroys the market for everyone else, because when customers do price comparison on various websites, their price looks to be several hundred bucks cheaper even though it is actually the same price.

This discount program is basically cutting off Canon's resellers at the knees.  It seriously needs to stop.  This is not the way to clear the channel of overstock of old models before a product announcement....
Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: BrokenArrow on May 15, 2013, 08:55:10 AM
Timing is everything. I had a meeting in Administration at the University yesterday.  The place is in full swing for the graduation tomorrow.  I also saw, if you can believe this, three students in three different groups around the campus with white lenses taking pics of their girlfriends (all three photogs were very young ladies).  Recalling the earlier discussion about Canon vacuuming up tax rebate dollars from the uninitiated, I think we can add potential grad presents from parents/grandparents to the list of retail reasons Canon may have extended the current "rebate" as well.  Indeed, I note that this morning that the Biggies have jumped their body prices yet another $100 and Canon has mysteriously just run completely out of stock on just about everything refurbished (at least according to Canon Price Watch 30 minutes ago).  I don't have any fearless predictions but as I mentioned earlier, this program is likely working to Canon's satisfaction or they would be doing something else, they're not dumb.  The Summer will be an interesting time to watch as these "peak" retail harvest seasons go away and they try, try I say, to gather back those of us who actually regularly buy the more expensive gear who haven't jumped ship yet (7100 sitting right here on my desk for eval with no 7DII or 70D or ? to compete). 
Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: backcountrygirl on May 15, 2013, 01:25:49 PM
Indeed, I note that this morning that the Biggies have jumped their body prices yet another $100 and Canon has mysteriously just run completely out of stock on just about everything refurbished (at least according to Canon Price Watch 30 minutes ago).  I don't have any fearless predictions but as I mentioned earlier, this program is likely working to Canon's satisfaction or they would be doing something else, they're not dumb.  The Summer will be an interesting time to watch as these "peak" retail harvest seasons go away and they try, try I say, to gather back those of us who actually regularly buy the more expensive gear who haven't jumped ship yet (7100 sitting right here on my desk for eval with no 7DII or 70D or ? to compete).

Refurbished out of stock? That doesn't surprise me at all. Especially with the lenses...
Let's just say consumers are watching prices more than ever before. I think it goes back to when the economy was in worse shape. People are watching what they spend, and how they spend it. Granted... the purchasing of consumers have been more positive in the last 6 months, but the eagle eye on prices still exist.
I guess that's why it's perplexing as to the gap in prices between the Nikon and Canon models ( $700? 5D Mark III versus Nikon D800 ). Not every consumer understands how a camera works in detail, but if you go into a best buy for instance the sales guy will use big numbers to rope in a customer. The big numbers I'm talking about is Mega Pixels and price!
You can get a Nikon with 36 MP for $700 less than a Canon with 22.3 MP. Customers will go WOW!!! What a deal!!!
Bottom line is this... The average consumer doesn't understand that both camera's in reality pretty equal when you look at all the pluses and minuses. All they see is the price number one, and the value number two of the Mega Pixel difference. This is what a lot of electronic retail chains are doing to sell camera's now. It's all about the WOW factor, and Nikon has two big WOW factors that these sales people are using. I know this first hand. I walked into a large electronics chain and asked lots of questions just to see what the vibe was in the stores. This is what I saw, and what I experienced.
It was an interesting experience to say the least...
Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: BrokenArrow on May 15, 2013, 09:46:35 PM
What's the old Chinese curse?  May you live in interesting times.   ;D  Certainly that curse is in full swing for camera marketing people.   Are you studio shooting more commercial work these days or field work?  Very happy to hear that you contracted on the additional new 5DIII setup.  Magnificent thing it is!  You're gonna need more shipping containers you lucky person!  hahaha
Title: Re: the rebate program... what a sham!
Post by: BrokenArrow on May 18, 2013, 12:49:38 PM
Some corrections needed from me.  I had stated that bodies had gone up by $100 the other day but, with the exception of the non-kit 6D, they were raised by $200 in one fell swoop.  And although the earlier report about refurb stock at Canon Price Watch was accurate, I must have caught them in an update period that morning.  Stock across refurbs is low but apparently not to the level I indicated.  My apologies.   With the dollar up against the yen by 30+%, due to a concerted effort by the Japanese government since last fall, you would think there would be a certain amount of price flexibility in the downward direction instead of up.  However, such times are prime time for padding the margin before price competition restarts.  The ~6% price rise this week added to that yen change  is a 36-40% price movement, a price increase if you will (I have chosen not to start the comparison with the low price points prior to the "rebate").  Nice work if you can get it.  It should be remembered though that up till last October Canon, like other Japanese manufacturers, suffered some from the exchange rate. Still, this aggressive, planned move of their currency is not a flash in the pan, it is a long term policy that I expect to see maintained as they try to get their moribund economy back running again. It remains to be seen if Canon's (and others) pricing will reflect that or if our demand will allow them to charge these newer prices.  It's not going our way folks, good time to wait and watch.