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Gear Talk => EOS Bodies - For Stills => Topic started by: Marsu42 on May 06, 2013, 06:07:02 PM

Title: Do you trust your camera?
Post by: Marsu42 on May 06, 2013, 06:07:02 PM
When shooting scenes that I consider to be "keepers", with my 60d I am always taking multiple shots because I fear the af won't be spot on. The actual "real" af misses are maybe 5%, however more often the large af points miss slightly when trying to af on small points for example the eyes of a horse looking towards me.

Another issue is IS which only improves statistically so even with good IS systems like 100L and 70-300L I always take multiple shots because in my experience there are visible differences even with the same settings.

That's part of the reason why I'm now @120k shutter cycles, apart from running focus stacks and bracketing. Also sorting through very similar shots and deciding which is a little better than the other is annoying and time-consuming.

I'm wondering: Am I doing something wrong or different than other people? If you have a 60d or other cameras (what about 6d/5d3), do you trust your af and lenses so much that you  take just one shot even of important scenes?
Title: Re: Do you trust your camera?
Post by: RLPhoto on May 06, 2013, 06:08:32 PM
Yes, I trust my 5d3 using single point AF on Any cross-type point's @ Any Aperture on a still subject.

Moving subjects I will always take a few extra shots if shooting Sub F/2.8.
Title: Re: Do you trust your camera?
Post by: Drizzt321 on May 06, 2013, 06:34:37 PM
I trust my camera, but only to a certain point. I just learn the limitations, and where it starts to no longer function quite as desired, and then figure out a workaround if necessary.

Granted, I have a 5d3, but was shooting a 5d2 before. Really it comes down to experience with your equipment, regardless of what it is. Once you have the requisite experience, and know the strengths and weaknesses, you have trust that you can get the image you want with what you have. It sounds like you've shot a lot of photos, but have you really thought about what you are doing and why during certain types of subjects and situations you are photographing? Have you tried shooting one way, then shooting a different way in similar situations and see if one way gives you better images (subject to what you consider a better image)?

One thing which would help you (if Canon would implement it) is AFMA which can help avoid AF misses due to slight front/back focusing problems. Your idea to take multiple shots is a good one, especially if you are working with a low shutter speed since your 2nd or 3rd photo will likely when you are in a more stable position, instead of slightly moving the camera as you press the shutter button.
Title: Re: Do you trust your camera?
Post by: neuroanatomist on May 06, 2013, 06:44:56 PM
I didn't trust my 5DII - I always took multiple shots so I could pick the the best.

I trust my 1D X - I always take multiple shots because I leave it set to 12 fps, and even a brief press of the shutter fires off 2-3 frames.  ;)  I agree that sorting through them is a bit annoying, as I really don't need to delete due to missed focus. But with kids, it helps because I almost always get one with no blinks.
Title: Re: Do you trust your camera?
Post by: Mt Spokane Photography on May 06, 2013, 07:02:34 PM
I've had most Canon DSLR's and a few from Nikon.  The only one that did not turn out mostly good photos was the D800, it required good light and then it was excellent.
 
I do try to pay attention to my settings, if I set them wrong, its not the fault of the camera.  I find a very low rate of poor images. 
Title: Re: Do you trust your camera?
Post by: bholliman on May 06, 2013, 07:36:46 PM
I trust my camera, but only to a certain point.

I generally trust both my 6D and 7D, but never enough to only take one shot of something important.
Title: Re: Do you trust your camera?
Post by: Marsu42 on May 06, 2013, 08:00:49 PM
Once you have the requisite experience, and know the strengths and weaknesses, you have trust that you can get the image you want with what you have.

With the 60d I somehow doubt this :-o I still find it so damn hard to af on a tiny spot you can barely see in the crop vf or with a thin dof in macro. And I have been getting so much better during the last two years, but the af problem persists - that's why I'm asking now in this thread.

Have you tried shooting one way, then shooting a different way in similar situations and see if one way gives you better images (subject to what you consider a better image)?

Absolutely, I have been trying everything imaginable and now have some grasp of what is easy or hard and what I have to get right in camera and what can be fixed in post if necessary.

Also I should note that I am trying to get good shots @100% crop just for the sake of gaining experience, if I was aiming for a specific downsized res I wouldn't make such a fuzz.

One thing which would help you (if Canon would implement it) is AFMA which can help avoid AF misses due to slight front/back focusing problems.

Afma isn't the problem, except maybe with the 100L @macro distance and f2.8.
Title: Re: Do you trust your camera?
Post by: docholliday on May 06, 2013, 08:08:50 PM
Coming from large format and medium format, I learn to trust my cameras quite well. When you have 1, 2 or 12 frames max per roll, you tend to be careful when hitting the release. That's carried over and I learn the limitations of my 1D/1Ds 3's and still treat them like it was film. Of course, I still carry a L-758 when I'm really worried about exposure and when I switch over to the 1VHS, it comes in nice to keep the good habits!
Title: Re: Do you trust your camera?
Post by: Hobby Shooter on May 06, 2013, 08:35:22 PM
Generally yes, no problems at all. I have a 5D3. Depending on what I am shooting I will sometimes take multiple exposures, the camera will miss focus sometimes, but mostly it's me that messes things up. Normally that I forget to change settings to get the exposure right. I had a portrait shoot on Sunday afternoon and as it got darker I had to keep up with the fading light, I cam out fine in the end but missed some shots due to myself not compensating for the changing conditions quick enough.
Title: Re: Do you trust your camera?
Post by: Aglet on May 06, 2013, 08:53:20 PM
Of all the cameras I trusted, my 60D is still one of the best for getting that shot, it's my go-to camera if I'm running out of the house to catch something.  Unless it was fast action or other serious focus challenges in which case the 7D did a better job.  (no 1D for me) 40D and Rebels' AF was adequate for most of what I used them for and rarely let me down.
That said, I've never really had to worry much about AF issues with any of my cameras and the only one that ever gave me exposure grief was my 5D2 which could be all over the place tho usually under by varying amounts.  HATED that camera.  My 40D could miss exposure too sometimes but since I use manual whenever possible, these are not common issues.
Some AF misses with the D800 in challenging conditions but otherwise very solid performer that meets my expectations very well.  The little d5100, considering its sparse AF coverage and only 1 cross type in the center performs well beyond my expectations.
Pentax K52s is a quirky beast I'm still getting used to, AF performance varies greatly from lens to lens.  AE performance is often pretty good but I had some odd metering behavior begin with it the other day that I have to test out.

That said, I RARELY shoot multiples of images.  I only machine-gun the subject when it's living, then you have a better chance of getting a good expression.  I'd now prefer to miss a shot here or there than have to constantly wade thru too many.  A leftover from film-shooting days.
Title: Re: Do you trust your camera?
Post by: Don Haines on May 06, 2013, 09:37:54 PM
I don't trust my camera.... that's why I never leave it home alone... who knows what it will be up to.

Seriously though, I trust it for landscape shooting, but when it comes to wildlife I just seem to keep shooting.... the little varmints move so it's hard to know what will be a good shot until you get it home and look at it on a big screen.
I was out in the canoe on saturday and came back with 240 or so turtle pictures... you know how it is....

I find that the 100L and the 70-200, and even the 50F1.8 are just bang-on focus every time.... it is amazing! I have an 18-200 that has about a 90% hit rate and a Sigma 120-400 that has about a 80% hit rate. For me it's not a question of trusting the camera (60D), it's a question of trusting the lens.
Title: Re: Do you trust your camera?
Post by: Dylan777 on May 06, 2013, 09:57:01 PM
Yes, I trust my 5d3 using single point AF on Any cross-type point's @ Any Aperture on a still subject.

+1.... and when the kids start running, I use AI Servo with 8points exp mode, option #2. Keeper is very high. Another reason to love CF Lexar 1000X.
Title: Re: Do you trust your camera?
Post by: sanj on May 06, 2013, 10:03:59 PM
It all depends upon the situation. If all was well before I clicked: exposure, focus etc I TOTALLY trust the camera.
Title: Re: Do you trust your camera?
Post by: agierke on May 06, 2013, 11:56:58 PM
i cant say that i ever really trusted anything in photography. so many things can go wrong or malfunction or under perform. its why we tend to have backups to almost everything.

i trust myself after i have done all the pre prep that i can. my trust doesn't extend to a machine.
Title: Re: Do you trust your camera?
Post by: Vossie on May 09, 2013, 03:10:48 PM
I trust my camera so I am not afraid of taking single shots (for static objects). When taking pictures from people (especially kids) I do, however, take multiple shots as facial expression is never the same in a sequence. Sifting out the best is indeed not the most fun part of the process.
Title: Re: Do you trust your camera?
Post by: RGF on May 09, 2013, 03:30:35 PM
I may trust the camera but I don't trust the photographer (me) so I always take a few extra as insurance.
Title: Re: Do you trust your camera?
Post by: brad goda on May 09, 2013, 04:46:03 PM
trust in camera or what you see.
if critical image making I use capture mode (capture one pro) and view image on at least a 20" monitor... yes on location.   
for an important image there are usually more than just my eyes that need to scrutinize the image making process.
Title: Re: Do you trust your camera?
Post by: rihanishtiaq on May 11, 2013, 08:15:43 AM
I rather don't trust my hands when I am at a shutter speed less than 1/60s.

I always take multiple shots for these kinds of scenarios.
Title: Re: Do you trust your camera?
Post by: sandymandy on May 11, 2013, 08:22:01 AM
I dont trust my 50mm 1.8 II. It seriously fucks up focussing sometimes. Using the center point only it gave me back focus in a daylight scene 3 times in a row. I mean...really? I checked after every shot and moved a little and also focussed a little different but ALWAYS the same. So i said screw it and kept the backfocus shots :P
Title: Re: Do you trust your camera?
Post by: pdirestajr on May 11, 2013, 09:03:01 AM
I believe the majority of "focusing issues" are user errors and not gear related. The key is knowing exactly how your tools work in any given situation, then trust yourself.
Title: Re: Do you trust your camera?
Post by: 3kramd5 on May 11, 2013, 11:05:26 AM
I tend to trust my center AF. The others are fine for landscape, but hit and miss for portraiture (unfortunately).
Title: Re: Do you trust your camera?
Post by: bornshooter on May 11, 2013, 11:48:19 AM
I didn't trust my 5DII - I always took multiple shots so I could pick the the best.

I trust my 1D X - I always take multiple shots because I leave it set to 12 fps, and even a brief press of the shutter fires off 2-3 frames.  ;)  I agree that sorting through them is a bit annoying, as I really don't need to delete due to missed focus. But with kids, it helps because I almost always get one with no blinks.
I just watched a video on youtube with jeff cable he does the same i guess that is the only problem sorting through them all.
Title: Re: Do you trust your camera?
Post by: neuroanatomist on May 11, 2013, 11:59:47 AM
I didn't trust my 5DII - I always took multiple shots so I could pick the the best.

I trust my 1D X - I always take multiple shots because I leave it set to 12 fps, and even a brief press of the shutter fires off 2-3 frames.  ;)  I agree that sorting through them is a bit annoying, as I really don't need to delete due to missed focus. But with kids, it helps because I almost always get one with no blinks.
I just watched a video on youtube with jeff cable he does the same i guess that is the only problem sorting through them all.

Doesn't take long. Aperture can automatically 'stack' photos taken within a given time interval, so I can open the whole burst with one click. Then I can pick the one to keep, running the loupe over them if needed to help select, and delete the rest with a keystroke.
Title: Re: Do you trust your camera?
Post by: Daniel Flather on May 11, 2013, 12:06:56 PM
I'm always shooting F1.2-1.4 at close range, so I over run it a little.
Title: Re: Do you trust your camera?
Post by: Stewbyyy on May 11, 2013, 01:12:30 PM
I shoot with 2 1D Mark IIN's and no, I don't really trust them. I always have the two of them with me in case one kicks out, and I always take multiple photos with each. Even though my keeper rate is about 98% I never trust the AF to be perfect as it's cost me 1 or 2 important shots in my history with the camera.

When I still had a 40D as a backup camera (until about a month ago) I never trusted it. My keeper rate was about 15%, it was terrible. I couldn't use or trust the camera at all, everything was always slightly soft (maybe it was just that I was used to the significantly better APS-H IQ...). I really only had it for the very worst case scenario.

I always trusted my old 60D and 500D before that. Trusted them 100%. It was only when I got more serious with photography that I started trusting my gear less.
Title: Re: Do you trust your camera?
Post by: bornshooter on May 11, 2013, 01:59:44 PM
I didn't trust my 5DII - I always took multiple shots so I could pick the the best.

I trust my 1D X - I always take multiple shots because I leave it set to 12 fps, and even a brief press of the shutter fires off 2-3 frames.  ;)  I agree that sorting through them is a bit annoying, as I really don't need to delete due to missed focus. But with kids, it helps because I almost always get one with no blinks.
I just watched a video on youtube with jeff cable he does the same i guess that is the only problem sorting through them all.

Doesn't take long. Aperture can automatically 'stack' photos taken within a given time interval, so I can open the whole burst with one click. Then I can pick the one to keep, running the loupe over them if needed to help select, and delete the rest with a keystroke.
What do you think of aperture?i use lightroom and on occasion go into photoshop.
Title: Re: Do you trust your camera?
Post by: neuroanatomist on May 11, 2013, 02:04:38 PM
What do you think of aperture?i use lightroom and on occasion go into photoshop.

I like Aperture - a great UI and excellent for library management.  But not a great RAW converter - I triage in Aperture, use DxO for RAW conversions, then bring the jpgs into Aperture.  I use CS6 for creative editing.
Title: Re: Do you trust your camera?
Post by: sdsr on May 11, 2013, 03:20:32 PM
I trust the camera more than I trust myself.   That said, I've owned and rented several different DSLRs over the past few years and my success rate is higher than warrants the number of "just in case" shots I take.  But it does vary with different body/lens combinations.  One of the factors that persuaded me to switch from my Pentax K5 to a 5DII was the superior performance mechanically of the Canon lenses I tried; a much smaller proportion of the photos I took were out of focus after I made the switch, smaller still when I added a 6D (and smaller than my experiences with Nikon D3100 and D600).  I find the fail rate of the 6D + 70-300L combination satisfyingly close to zero.  If I'm in a situation where the fail rate is likely to be higher - e.g. very shallow depth of focus such that the slightest movement by me or the subject will screw it up - then I'll take more.  (I only ever shoot hand-held; the answer might be different if I regularly used a tripod.)

[I must say, though, that my mirrorless camera - Olympus OMD - is in a completely different class in terms of accuracy than any DSLR I've used; if it thinks it has focused accurately, it has (like DSLRs it occasionally won't focus at all, but that's a different matter).  Whether this is because mirrorless focusing mechanisms are inherently more accurate, because you can place the focus point anywhere on the image, because the lenses are well designed, because of something in specifically in the design of the OMD, or some combination of these factors, I can't say; but if it weren't for habit I doubt I would be taking "just in case" shots with it except in special cases (e.g. when I'm using a macro lens).]
Title: Re: Do you trust your camera?
Post by: FunPhotons on May 11, 2013, 03:46:23 PM
5DmII.

I trust it to get a detailed image with good colors, because I force the colors on it by doing on location WB and post process camera color calibration. I partially trust its metering because it does a pretty OK job here usually, but I'll often shoot manual. I don't trust AF as half the time it will get it either wrong, or will just hunt for focus.
Title: Re: Do you trust your camera?
Post by: alexanderferdinand on May 11, 2013, 04:07:39 PM
Yes to the cameras, no to the humans. This is me and my errors, and the erratic behaviour of humans, growing logarithmic with their number.
Closed (and espacially halfclosed) are the classic non- keepers.
Title: Re: Do you trust your camera?
Post by: Ladislav on May 11, 2013, 04:47:34 PM
I don't trust my skills yet, I don't trust IS too much, I don't trust camera's LCD but I trust camera itself.

Most of my bad shots are caused either by too long exposures which I'm not able to hand hold (somehow I'm not able to get more than one and half stop from IS on both my lenses and I had similar experience with 18-135 STM on 650D) or too long exposure for moving objects. These issues are followed by bad focus or bad DOF.
Title: Re: Do you trust your camera?
Post by: bycostello on May 14, 2013, 05:43:36 AM
yes
Title: Re: Do you trust your camera?
Post by: Marsu42 on May 14, 2013, 06:38:14 AM
yes
Thanks for elaborating on this issue...

... but imho CR should have a minimum reply length requirement vs. post-bombing the board with footer links :-o ?
http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=10369 (http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=10369)
Title: Re: Do you trust your camera?
Post by: Menace on May 14, 2013, 07:28:52 AM
I trust my camera settings but to compensate human error, I take multiple shots just to be able to select the best one later.

Works well for me.
Title: Re: Do you trust your camera?
Post by: unfocused on May 14, 2013, 10:19:41 AM
Never trust a camera. They are clever, pathological liars, incapable by nature of telling the truth. They are particularly troublesome because their lies are so clever and so subtle that they have convinced a large portion of the population that they are honest and impartial.

It is the responsibility of a photographer to know better.

Recognize this essential fact about cameras and understand that you will spend your life alternating between two equally futile goals.

The first is to try to squeeze as much truth as possible out of an unwilling and uncooperative machine.

The second is to try to form an alliance with the little liar and use its natural inclinations to achieve your goals.

Mastering these two impossible-to-master skills is the lifelong work of being a photographer.
Title: Re: Do you trust your camera?
Post by: Dick on May 15, 2013, 01:33:46 AM
I usually take multiple shots. Single shots could work well too at times, but in the end when I take multiple shots I tend to find some of the shots better than the others. So basically, with single shots I could get great pictures, but might at the same time miss the perfection. :)
Title: Re: Do you trust your camera?
Post by: Steb on May 15, 2013, 06:53:41 AM
My trust varies very much depending on the lens I use. The 5D3 is working very exact most of the time but with some lenses I do not fully rely on the AF. E.g. I own the Sigma 50 and 85 and both are tricky with nailing the focus point. My favorite is the 70-200 which is spot on nearly 100% of the time.
Title: Re: Do you trust your camera?
Post by: TexasBadger on May 15, 2013, 07:44:05 AM
I have never trusted any camera that I have ever owned.  That's why I shoot raw in manual mode.  I do trust that more often than not I can make corrections in Photoshop.  I trust my wife but not my cat.  I picked her out and she runs away 99 out of 100 times that I try to pick her up.  I think she is mad that I named her Doofus... :o

I picked out my wife as well, but she already had a name.
Title: Re: Do you trust your camera?
Post by: dstppy on May 15, 2013, 09:12:13 AM
I didn't trust my 5DII - I always took multiple shots so I could pick the the best.

I trust my 1D X - I always take multiple shots because I leave it set to 12 fps, and even a brief press of the shutter fires off 2-3 frames.  ;)  I agree that sorting through them is a bit annoying, as I really don't need to delete due to missed focus. But with kids, it helps because I almost always get one with no blinks.

Why didn't you trust the MK2?

The last performance of my wife's I shot (using the 200mm f2.8), I got lost while post-processing because I had sets that looked like I'd already done them and they were untouched.

----

As for trust issues; I'm *very* easily biased by threads like the one on the Tamron 24-70 . . . I haven't had any truly bad shots with it, but I haven't really pushed it yet.

Primes (85 1.8 & 200 2.8), I trust implicitly and have done some fabulous things with them.  Haven't touched the 50mm 1.4 much since going FF and I don't use my 60D as much (I like the 80-85mm fov).
Title: Re: Do you trust your camera?
Post by: Viggo on May 15, 2013, 09:48:42 AM
I use the 1d X exclusively and I can't say I KNOW it will have accurate focus as I shoot a lot with lenses that aren't optimal AF wise, like the 50 L. But mostly I blame the lenses not the camera, because I am never at fault whatsover  ;D I don't use One Shot and have accepted that Servo of fast moving subjects at f1.2 isn't going to be 100%, but I trust my gear enough to try ridicolous things with the AF, and very seldom is it completely off.

I always try to be better at focusing, trying different settings for different subjects all the time, and shoot a lot so I know where it's VERY accurate and where I need to blast off a few more. Using the 70-200 I would say it's 99,99%. In a situation where I can't afford to miss, I use burst to be sure.
Title: Re: Do you trust your camera?
Post by: mrsfotografie on May 15, 2013, 10:36:31 AM
A camera is only a tool. Better tools make life easier, but are no substitute for workmanship ;)

For me, the histogram is the most important quality check in the field, mostly to correct for exposure. I shoot raw to correct white balance and fine-tune exposure in post.