canon rumors FORUM

Rumors => EOS Bodies => Topic started by: Canon Rumors on August 17, 2011, 02:02:22 PM

Title: *BUSTED* 1D Mark V Spec List [CR1]
Post by: Canon Rumors on August 17, 2011, 02:02:22 PM
*Busted* Another spec list torn apart by the community. The crop factors are off to a lot of people. APS-C isn’t 1/1.6.

Received 8 spec lists today! I expect 1.6x more tomorrow.

1D Mark V A new claimed spec list of the upcoming 1D Mark 5.

We’re still getting conflicting 1Ds Mark IV & 1D Mark V model names. I’m still not sure what the new flagship will be called.

Go on and discuss what you think. This is fairly inline with what we’ve heard previously.

cr

Title: Re: 1D Mark V Spec List [CR1]
Post by: bchernicoff on August 17, 2011, 02:16:05 PM
I'm not sure these numbers are internally consistent. 20.3mp * 10.3 fps indicates the camera can process 209mp/s of data. 24.9mp * 8.3fps = 207mp/s which is are fairly close, but 32.4mp * 5.3fps = 171mp/s. If it shot full-frame at 6.4 fps it would be consistent...unless Canon had some other reason to constrain full-frame shooting to 5.3fps. Also why would a viewfinder that can show 100% of full-frame show less than that for APS-C or APS-H?

I call BS.
Title: Re: 1D Mark V Spec List [CR1]
Post by: neuroanatomist on August 17, 2011, 02:17:01 PM
This is fairly inline with what we’ve heard previously.

This may be in line with what we've heard previously, but we're obviously hearing these things from people who are making this crap up.

  • Image sizes: 32.4 mp, 16.2 mp, 8.1 mp @ 5, 3 fps
  • APS-H mode (1.3x) – 24.9 mp, 12.5 mp, 6.2 mp @ 8, 3 fps
  • APS-C mode (1.6x) – 20.3 mp, 10.1 mp, 5.1 mp @ 10, 3 fps

Folks, if you're going to fabricate a rumor and send it to CRguy, please go out and learn how sensor sizes scale and also some basic math.

If you take a FF 32.4 MP sensor and run it in a hypothetical 'APS-C mode' you don't get a 32.4 ÷ 1.6 = 20.3 MP image.  The 'crop factor' is a diagonal measure that impacts field of view, but real pixels on a sensor have both x and y dimensions, so when you scale a FF 32.4 MP sensor to that 'APS-C mode' you get a 32.4 ÷ 1.62 = 12.6 MP image.

Please, go waste someone else's time, or come back when you're smarter.

I declare shennigans!!
Title: Re: 1D Mark V Spec List [CR1]
Post by: mkln on August 17, 2011, 02:20:43 PM
I'm not sure these numbers are internally consistent. 20.3mp * 10.3 fps indicates the camera can process 209mp/s of data. 24.9mp * 8.3fps = 207mp/s which is are fairly close, but 32.4mp * 5.3fps = 171mp/s. If it shot full-frame at 6.4 fps it would be consistent...unless Canon had some other reason to constrain full-frame shooting to 5.3fps. Also why would a viewfinder that can show 100% of full-frame show less than that for APS-C or APS-H?

I call BS.

agreed,
would the sensor have a different density in different areas? I don't believe this.

if there are 20mpix on APSC format then, with the same density on a 2.56x larger area, there should be 51.2mpix on the FF area.
also note how 20.3 * 1.6 = 32.48 and this is the wrong way to calculate mpixels.

this tells us that the person who sent you that doesn't even know how to build credible specs.
Title: Re: 1D Mark V Spec List [CR1]
Post by: Shnookums on August 17, 2011, 02:21:09 PM
This will not happen if for one reason it is exactly what I would like. Merge both 1D and 1Ds and price it just a bit higher than the current 1D.

But, I continue wishing hard this is what will be announced in the next month.
Title: Re: 1D Mark V Spec List [CR1]
Post by: JasonM on August 17, 2011, 02:35:47 PM

I declare shennigans!!

Yep, shenanigans are afoot.  Is it meant in good fun or just a mischievous annoyance from a Nikon shooter rattling our chains?
Title: Re: 1D Mark V Spec List [CR1]
Post by: Rocky on August 17, 2011, 02:44:15 PM
""Viewfinder: Magnification: 0.76x, 100% frame coverage
APS-H viewfinder magnification zoom: 0.87x – 89% viewfinder crop
APS-C viewfinder magnification zoom: 1.0x – 82% viewfinder crop ""
That will make the view finder system become a monster with a built-in zoom (Automatic??). I do not think that is real spec.
Title: Re: 1D Mark V Spec List [CR1]
Post by: Bokehmon on August 17, 2011, 03:04:16 PM
This is fairly inline with what we’ve heard previously.

This may be in line with what we've heard previously, but we're obviously hearing these things from people who are making this crap up.

  • Image sizes: 32.4 mp, 16.2 mp, 8.1 mp @ 5, 3 fps
  • APS-H mode (1.3x) – 24.9 mp, 12.5 mp, 6.2 mp @ 8, 3 fps
  • APS-C mode (1.6x) – 20.3 mp, 10.1 mp, 5.1 mp @ 10, 3 fps

Folks, if you're going to fabricate a rumor and send it to CRguy, please go out and learn how sensor sizes scale and also some basic math.

If you take a FF 32.4 MP sensor and run it in a hypothetical 'APS-C mode' you don't get a 32.4 ÷ 1.6 = 20.3 MP image.  The 'crop factor' is a diagonal measure that impacts field of view, but real pixels on a sensor have both x and y dimensions, so when you scale a FF 32.4 MP sensor to that 'APS-C mode' you get a 32.4 ÷ 1.62 = 12.6 MP image.

Please, go waste someone else's time, or come back when you're smarter.

I declare shennigans!!

hit the nail on the head. i really hope it's a 12fps monster, so I can do 2x speed video at like 6k :D
Title: Re: 1D Mark V Spec List [CR1]
Post by: Holy Trinity on August 17, 2011, 03:15:28 PM
BS. In terms of density, The equivalent of a 32Mpx full frame sensor is around:

- 19Mpx for an APS-H
- 13Mpx for an APSC-C

...
Title: Re: 1D Mark V Spec List [CR1]
Post by: neuroanatomist on August 17, 2011, 03:16:57 PM
FWIW, the APS-H megapixel number is also wrong.

But, the question is, is the mode there and the submitter has just made up the megapixel number or is the whole thing a fiction?

Of course.

Maybe the specs are correct, and the amazing procesing power of dual Digic V enables the new camera to perfectly interpolate and upscale the images.  Or maybe it just adds a big border of black pixels...   ::)
Title: Re: 1D Mark V Spec List [CR1]
Post by: RS_RS on August 17, 2011, 03:29:46 PM
What all you naysayers haven't realised is that this new model has different-sized pixels in different parts of the sensor.  ;D
Title: Re: 1D Mark V Spec List [CR1]
Post by: Shnookums on August 17, 2011, 03:30:17 PM
BS. In terms of density, The equivalent of a 32Mpx full frame sensor is around:

- 19Mpx for an APS-H
- 13Mpx for an APSC-C


I would love that much better than being stuck with max 5fps or 10fps.
Title: Re: 1D Mark V Spec List [CR1]
Post by: kubelik on August 17, 2011, 03:34:12 PM
I declare shennigans!!

good call.  also, given the fairly legit canon warranty page rumor showing a "1Ds Mark IV" it sounds like that's what's actually in the pipeline, so anything calling out for a 1D unification better try double hard to convince us all...
Title: Re: 1D Mark V Spec List [CR1]
Post by: bchernicoff on August 17, 2011, 03:38:42 PM
What all you naysayers haven't realized is that this new model has different-sized pixels in different parts of the sensor.  ;D

I know you are joking, but I wonder if maybe the densities could be accurate for a different kind of pixel...say full RGB per pixel in line with the patent mentioned here: http://www.canonrumors.com/2011/07/canon-3-layer-sensor-foveon-type-patent/
Title: Re: 1D Mark V Spec List [CR1]
Post by: silat shooters on August 17, 2011, 03:56:31 PM
Any ideas on pricing yet??  Are we talking $5K, 8K??  Or less?  Hoping it's not insanely priced!
Title: Re: 1D Mark V Spec List [CR1]
Post by: gene_can_sing on August 17, 2011, 04:19:59 PM
The video frame rates are way too crazy. Nobody would want such a varied of frame rates based on the Crop. I don't think Canon would do something that dumb, so yeah... probably someone with too much time.
Title: Re: 1D Mark V Spec List [CR1]
Post by: kennykodak on August 17, 2011, 04:21:17 PM
wild spec list, does it run on IOS or Android?  apps?
Title: Re: 1D Mark V Spec List [CR1]
Post by: nrw-sd on August 17, 2011, 04:24:47 PM
The math is wrong on this spec list.

A 32.4MP sensor means ~7000 x 4666.

The 1.3x and 1.6x crop factor applies to the width and height *individually*.  So, for example, the resolution in APS-H mode would have to be:
7000/1.3 x 4666/1.3 = 5384 x 3590 = ~19.3MP

And in APS-C mode would have to be:
7000/1.6 x 4666/1.6 = 4375 x 2916 = ~12.8MP

Also, the viewfinder calculations are off:
APS-H viewfinder: 59% of full-frame viewfinder image
APS-C viewfinder: 39% of full-frame viewfinder image
Title: Re: 1D Mark V Spec List [CR1]
Post by: Picsfor on August 17, 2011, 04:51:41 PM
i'm sooo glad i only take photos with my cameras - this thread requires a doctorate just to keep tabs with the science!

Of the options being touted for a new body release, i personally would prefer a 1D5, but suppose 1 Ds4 wouldn't be to unwelcome.

As for what the specs are, we'll not really know until it is released. Given that a 5D2 can handle 21mp with a single Digic 4, i'm sure that 32mp is not too far off for next MP rating, working ISO would more than likely push to 25k or 51k and video - who knows. Having spoken to a person who teaches video at a college, he was more than keen to extol the virtues of DSLR's over full blown pro grade video kit where price is concerned. Tell me Canon haven't worked that one out as well?
Title: Re: 1D Mark V Spec List [CR1]
Post by: unfocused on August 17, 2011, 04:57:17 PM
Besides the sensor math being wrong, this whole list of specs seems rather nonsensical.

The described camera seems guaranteed to disappoint everyone. A bunch of half-measures and nothing that would be considered game-changing.

I have more confidence in Canon that after all this time, when they finally release a new flagship, they know it must be nothing short of awesome. These specs are frankly a little boring.

This raises a question I've been wanting to ask for quite some time. What exactly constitutes a Canon Rumors source? Not being critical of Canon Rumors Guy, but just wondering. If I make up a bunch of specs and send an email that says I have access to inside information and these are the latest specs for the new Canon 8D Mark VIII, do I become a CR1 source? Do I have to substantiate anything or what?

It's Canon Rumors Guy's website and I appreciate that. Just wondering though what exactly a "source" is.
Title: Re: 1D Mark V Spec List [CR1]
Post by: John on August 17, 2011, 06:06:01 PM
Do I gather that this possible EOS will have the option of changeably using 1 of 3 sensors? Or that it is to be bought with one of the 3 sensors? If the former, then this does in fact seem to be an impressive game-changer, as the studio-oriented user could generate huge files, and the spot-news shooter could generate much smaller files, but at 10 FPS ... is this possible understanding correct? Does anyone have a guesstimate of a price? I would surmise upwards of 7K ...
Title: Re: 1D Mark V Spec List [CR1]
Post by: Shnookums on August 17, 2011, 06:20:36 PM
It's not hard to understand. You don't need 3 sensors...

Option 1 : Sensor start at 32mp and 5fps. If you want to sacrifice resolution for speed you pixel-bind, like shooting sRAW files and output 12mp images with 10fps.

Option 2 : Sensor also start with 32mp and 5fps. If you want more speed you read only a part of the sensor (think APS-C, 1.6x crop) in the center. Since you have less resolution you can go faster.

The Option 2 technology is not something Canon has shown to be possible yet. But Option 1 is. Canon produce sRAW images by binding pixel and also does create 1080p video frame at 30fps using the complete sensor. So Canon CAN read a full sensor faster when using lower resolution.
Title: Re: 1D Mark V Spec List [CR1]
Post by: logaandm on August 17, 2011, 06:23:30 PM
Pixel size about at the limit for optics.

Frame rate can be adjusted at the expense of picture size for action shots.

APS-H mode so everything looks just the same as what you've been doing the last 10 years.

Video at 100fps to get great slo-mo....

Sounds like the ideal sports photographer camera - maybe the ideal 35mm camera.

I want one. How much?
Title: Re: 1D Mark V Spec List [CR1]
Post by: TexPhoto on August 17, 2011, 08:32:02 PM
The formats do not make sense.  If the sensor is 32MP at FF, cropping the image electronically would yield just less than 19MP at 1.3 crop, and 12.5MP at 1.6 crop. 

"Pixel size about at the limit for optics." has been said about every DSLR for the past 5 years.  And what optics? An L prime at it's best settings? or a consumer zoom?  Or are those the same?
Title: Re: 1D Mark V Spec List [CR1]
Post by: Shnookums on August 17, 2011, 08:51:42 PM
If the sensor is 32MP at FF, cropping the image electronically would yield just less than 19MP at 1.3 crop, and 12.5MP at 1.6 crop.

So? 19mp with a 1.3 crop is better than the current 1DIV resolution. Double Digic V would most probably be able to handle this at 10 fps. You get to trade speed for resolution depending of the job to complete.
Title: Re: 1D Mark V Spec List [CR1]
Post by: noisejammer on August 17, 2011, 08:53:36 PM
Sorry, I don't buy this idea of a ff /1.3 / 1.6 switching idea.

Apart from making the viewfinder behave erratically, it would move the AF sensor points all over the frame so that you'd have to have a far more complex AF system too. Above everything else, a pro-camera needs to be reliable. Complexity and reliability make uncomfortable bedfellows.

I can however believe that maybe they have implemented on-chip binning modes so that the camera will output a 2x2 binned image, or a 3x3. Doing this (theoretically) gets you 2 and 3 stops of dynamic range respectively. CCD cameras used in astrophotography have done this for years - it's time that the DSLR caught up. Importantly, it reduces the amount of data that the chip has to shift so that frame rates go up.

As for video... um.... who cares? Neat for a semi-pro but Canon has professional video cameras.
Title: Re: 1D Mark V Spec List [CR1]
Post by: gmrza on August 17, 2011, 09:11:03 PM
This is fairly inline with what we’ve heard previously.


If you take a FF 32.4 MP sensor and run it in a hypothetical 'APS-C mode' you don't get a 32.4 ÷ 1.6 = 20.3 MP image.  The 'crop factor' is a diagonal measure that impacts field of view, but real pixels on a sensor have both x and y dimensions, so when you scale a FF 32.4 MP sensor to that 'APS-C mode' you get a 32.4 ÷ 1.62 = 12.6 MP image.

Please, go waste someone else's time, or come back when you're smarter.

I declare shennigans!!

Agreed, this one deserves a CR0, I think.
Title: Re: *BUSTED* 1D Mark V Spec List [CR1]
Post by: LetTheRightLensIn on August 17, 2011, 09:56:05 PM
this is just a silly copy of the post last week that had the same totally wrong math in it that came up with nonsense MP crops

Title: Re: 1D Mark V Spec List [CR1]
Post by: TexPhoto on August 17, 2011, 11:04:42 PM

So? 19mp with a 1.3 crop is better than the current 1DIV resolution. Double Digic V would most probably be able to handle this at 10 fps. You get to trade speed for resolution depending of the job to complete.

Sew buttons.  It shows this spec list is nonsense.  Nothing wrong with the concept, Nikon did it with one of the D2s as I recall, but assuming the pixels are the same size throughout the sensor, the numbers in this spec sheet are sheer comedy.
Title: Re: *BUSTED* 1D Mark V Spec List [CR1]
Post by: UncleFester on August 18, 2011, 01:18:21 AM
No mention of the new gas charged cocking mechanism? What a rip...

Title: Re: *BUSTED* 1D Mark V Spec List [CR1]
Post by: svetljo on August 18, 2011, 01:33:28 AM
damn, i was so hopping for 16bit processing and files ......
Title: Re: *BUSTED* 1D Mark V Spec List [CR1]
Post by: RESEARCH_UK on August 18, 2011, 04:46:39 AM
this is just a silly copy of the post last week that had the same totally wrong math in it that came up with nonsense MP crops

Which post was that?
Title: Re: *BUSTED* 1D Mark V Spec List [CR1]
Post by: GMCPhotographics on August 18, 2011, 06:08:54 AM
I don't have any problems with the rumoured specs. Yes I agree that the mp/s is a little low on the FF output for a dual Digic V (32*5=160mp/s). The chipset is more than capable fo delivering 7.5 fps at that resolution. I also don't have a problem with the APS-C and APS-H crop modes. Sure the maths isn't right, but Canon did say that they were researching dual density chips. So it's quite possible that this new sensor has a higher pixel density in the 1.3x zone and 1.6x zone respectively. I'm also wondering if the higher pixel density and the need to split the sensor read out has something to do with the lower fps? As to concearns about the view finder, Canon have implemented an LCD screen in the 7D with grid overlays. I'm sure it's possible for Canon to have corresponding crop lines or even View finder black out crop edges when switching formats. It's not hard or difficult tech to implement.
I think the big question with this camera is what price point? Also looking at the specs, there's still a lot of processing capacity in the chip set for a higher resolution camera to sit above this unit in canon's heirachy. Maybe a 48mp 5 fps 1DsV? Who knows!
Title: EF and EF-S lenses?
Post by: xtravrt on August 19, 2011, 03:17:53 AM
I hope the mount takes both EF and EF-S lenses so I can use my 7D lenses on a new body at 1.6x