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Rumors => EOS Bodies => Topic started by: Canon Rumors on August 18, 2011, 03:59:04 PM

Title: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: Canon Rumors on August 18, 2011, 03:59:04 PM
*UPDATE 1* Nikon Announcements Next Week A reader has written in about this post and says the big megapixel camera is from Nikon.

A Nikon division (I won’t mention the country) will be showing new Nikon products on August 24, 2011. The showing is “confidential” and will require an NDA. We already know the Nikon mirrorless will be coming.

Please don’t yell at me for posting Nikon stuff on Canon Rumors (trust me, it’ll happen).

Whatever Nikon does, could give some insight into what Canon and others in the industry will do. Photographic equipment companies rarely one up each other in the span of a month or so.

Upcoming DSLRs I received word that one manufacturer will surprise everyone with a big megapixel camera next Thursday, August 25, 2011.

The report is very vague, but comes from a bang on source. I’d almost [CR3] this.

5D Mark III Two great sources are both saying Canon is extremely quiet at the moment. There hasn’t been a real whisper about anything upcoming.

I am finished posting spec lists until I hear something more concrete.

A lot of people are talking about price drops of the 5D Mark II. It’s pretty interesting to me too. We’re coming up to 3 years on the Mark II. Maybe there will be something announced in 2011.

No one has received any press invites to a Canon event yet.

It looks like Nikon will announce first.

cr

Title: Re: Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: mhunt on August 18, 2011, 04:09:56 PM
OH JEEZ I CAN'T WAIT.

If it's the 1ds mkiv that's cool. If it's the 5d mkiii, I go crazy jump of my car.
Title: Re: Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: thepancakeman on August 18, 2011, 04:19:52 PM
So any ideas what "big" is?  35?  45?  105?   ;D
Title: Re: Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: dgsphto on August 18, 2011, 04:26:34 PM
"One of the manufacturers"....Could be Nikon then! -:)

Nikon has a press even on 8/24 and a 32MP D700 replacement is anticipated.

If it is indeed a Canon camera, I think it will be a 5Dmk3 with a 24-70 mk2 lens. To me, it does not make sense to announce a pro body first and then a prosumer one. They will easily get increased sales if they announce the prosumer one first followed by the pro body late this year/early next year.  Based on how it's spec-ed out (32MP with longer shutter life with faster shutter and AF bundled with decent ISO and video performance) would be enough to win over many of the 1DSmk3 folks for a while till they are ready with the 1Dsmk4. Double dip as long as there are enough differentiators between the 5Dmk3 and 1Dsmk4!!

Canon 5D mk2 prices have been going down lately although not by my much. It's mostly the kit prices that are lower not the body itself prices.

They also recently seemed to have cleared a ton of inventory through Continental One-pass, Best Buy and various kits through other vendors. A formal "price drop" by about 10% bringing it back to the pre-disaster level is inevitable in the near future.

Title: Re: Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: bornshooter on August 18, 2011, 04:32:46 PM
i can't wait either i so hope its a 5d mk3 prices in the uk today dropped about £100 for most big retailers which is strange bring on the 5d mk3 i will buy straight away :D
Title: Re: Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: Bob Howland on August 18, 2011, 04:43:53 PM
almost everyone is expecting a 30+MP D4

They are?? I may not be as up on Nikon rumors as you, but the rumor that I read a while ago was an 18MP D4 and a 24MP D800/D900.
Title: Re: Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: dgsphto on August 18, 2011, 04:50:53 PM
almost everyone is expecting a 30+MP D4

They are?? I may not be as up on Nikon rumors as you, but the rumor that I read a while ago was an 18MP D4 and a 24MP D800/D900.

The D4 was a typo. I corrected it to D700 replacement a few minutes before this post..

The MP count is all across the board. Some say 18 while others say 24  yet I have read about 30 as well. To me, I think it will be a 24mp, but Nikon could surprise s with a 30+ as well...they (along with Sony) have had enough time to "catch up" (if I may! Not trying to start a war -:) ) on the sensor tech.
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: Picsfor on August 18, 2011, 04:55:41 PM
OK, popped into a top Canon Stockit in UK, replacing a few bit to whichcaemthat question "can i get you anything else?"

i responded that i hope to be in shortly for one fo the F/F bodies due to be announced to after Nikons first announcement. innocently - he asked which body that was supposed to be, My response being 1Ds4 or 1D5.

His eyes lifted, "since we got the 5D2 - 3 years ago, we haven't sold a single 1DsIII. At 3 years the 5D3 would be more than a suitable release and more than able to match most of Nikons plans, It doesn't even need that much work to get them selling in volumes quicker than Canon can produce them, and certainly the equal of any D800 nikon might have to offer! This would leave Canon till Christmas to sort out their 1D stragey ready for the games..."

All i say is - it had better have a dual memory card slot and better focusing, or the D800 is me!
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: dgsphto on August 18, 2011, 05:11:29 PM
"since we got the 5D2 - 3 years ago, we haven't sold a single 1DsIII.

The 5Dmk2 was probably closer to the 1Dsmk3 for many people than it was different. That’s why I said that as long as they have enough differentiators, they have the potential for double dip with launching the 5Dmk3 first and then the 1Dsmk4.

I think Canon has learnt their lesson with the 5Dmk2 eating into the 1Dsmk3 sales which is why there was probably a lot of talk about Canon reorganizing the prosumer and pro lines.

All i say is - it had better have a dual memory card slot and better focusing, or the D800 is me!

Amen!
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: EYEONE on August 18, 2011, 05:25:24 PM

All i say is - it had better have a dual memory card slot and better focusing, or the D800 is me!

Why does everyone go gaga over dual card slots?
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: unfocused on August 18, 2011, 05:29:33 PM
Keep in mind that the Sony Alpha a77 certainly fits into these specifications. The rumor says Aug. 25, but the date that is most often quoted is Aug. 24. I suppose it depends on what part of the world you are in, but the dates could certainly be the same.

As for a "big" megapixal camera; define big. It certainly seems that 24 mp on an APS-C camera could be considered "big" by many people.

I'm not saying that's the announcement, just that it fits the specifications. I hope that it is something  bigger and more exciting, but, I'm not going to be terribly surprised if the Alpha a77 is the "big" announcement.

Actually, I am kind of excited by the Alpha a77 announcement because, as a 7D owner, I think it ups the bar for the 7D MarkII.
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: dgsphto on August 18, 2011, 05:29:46 PM
"A Nikon division (I won’t mention the country)..."

That would be Nikon Denmark.  ;)
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: JasonM on August 18, 2011, 05:31:00 PM

Why does everyone go gaga over dual card slots?

Data protection.  Memory cards do fail or get corrupted occasionally.
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: dgsphto on August 18, 2011, 05:33:22 PM

All i say is - it had better have a dual memory card slot and better focusing, or the D800 is me!

Why does everyone go gaga over dual card slots?

Some of the Pros do because they want either/both of the below:
* Ability to write to 2 cards at the same time providing a backup if one card was to fail. This would minimize risk of losing images already taken and stored on the failed card.
* Parallel image writes from the buffer to cards would empty the buffer faster allowing for a longer high FPS operation before the buffer fills up.
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: KrisU on August 18, 2011, 05:40:55 PM
With four card slots they could implement RAID 5. ;D
Title: Re: Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: c-law on August 18, 2011, 05:45:31 PM
To me, it does not make sense to announce a pro body first and then a prosumer one. They will easily get increased sales if they announce the prosumer one first followed by the pro body late this year/early next year. 
See, to me it seems more likely to be the other way round. If they release the 5DIII first then even if it is very well differentiated from the new 1DsIV (or whatever it'll be called), we won't know that as it won't be announced yet. So we will have a lot of pros who are eager for a new camera and being tempted by the 5D that now blows the 1DsIII out of the water (in some respects, MP and new features being the most prominent).

You are going to get pros buying a 5D and then regretting it later but not being able to afford/justify a 1Ds with a 5D first. If you release the 1D first all the pros buy it as it is the best most modern camera available to them. Then when the 5D is released, the people who were always too poor to buy the 1Ds will buy that and the people who could afford both will buy it too. The people who could afford one or the other but not both have already bought the 1Ds except the few people who hung around to decide after the newest camera was confirmed but by then they know the 1DV is just around the corner so they'll wait for that and end up mummified infront of a constantly refreshing Canon Rumors page.

Just my opinion but I think it makes sense as a way to preserve the most sales for both systems.

Chris
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: fyngyrz on August 18, 2011, 05:47:26 PM
Not looking for megapixels -- 21 is already too many for FF. Huge files, slow transfers, slow processing.

Looking for better low light performance; lower noise; better EVF previewing for longer exposures; GPS; wireless downloading; wireless charging; programmable exposures longer than 30 seconds; Switchable IR filtering (or none... I'd be happy to slap an IR block filter on the lenses when shooting normally.) (C'mon Canon, don't you want to sell a boatload of highly profitable filters???)

You know... things that will actually improve the images and the regimes, and the shooting experience, as opposed to giving us, yet again, an even more detailed view of the flaws in the lenses.

But of course, what we'll GET is... more megapixels. Bigger files. Slower processing. Slower transfers. Oh yeah, and more effort wasted on trying to inappropriately multipurpose these beautiful still cameras into video cameras. And maybe a new battery style so as to obsolete the hugely expensive ones we've already bought. :(

I am *so* tired of "Hey, look more megapixels!" and frankly, I'm not going to buy unless the camera actually performs better. Increases in megapixels work *against* my buy-in. And no, throwing out half  or 3/4ths of the pixels in the camera isn't the right way to go -- the less sensor area involved in taking the shot, the more noise there will be. With a nominally high megapixel camera, you have to take the entire image and then bin the results in order to approach the actual noise reducing effect of larger sensels. So modes like SRAW and SRAW2 don't really help (unless the cameras are modified to do the binning, that would be a useful change.)

Title: Re: Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: rocketdesigner on August 18, 2011, 06:02:13 PM
To me, it does not make sense to announce a pro body first and then a prosumer one. They will easily get increased sales if they announce the prosumer one first followed by the pro body late this year/early next year. 

It makes absolute perfect sense to announce the Pro body first...to get it into the hands of the Pro photographers who will be walking advertisements for Canon at next year's Olympics.
Title: Re: Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: dgsphto on August 18, 2011, 06:07:38 PM
It makes absolute perfect sense to announce the Pro body first...to get it into the hands of the Pro photographers who will be walking advertisements for Canon at next year's Olympics.

Oh, they will probably have both the bodies available by then allright! It's just the launch and initial avaiability could be staggered by a few months.
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: dgsphto on August 18, 2011, 06:14:40 PM
Not looking for megapixels -- 21 is already too many for FF. Huge files, slow transfers, slow processing.

But of course, what we'll GET is... more megapixels. Bigger files. Slower processing. Slower transfers. Oh yeah, and more effort wasted on trying to inappropriately multipurpose these beautiful still cameras into video cameras. And maybe a new battery style so as to obsolete the hugely expensive ones we've already bought. :(

I am *so* tired of "Hey, look more megapixels!" and frankly, I'm not going to buy unless the camera actually performs better.

All valid points. Your primary concern seems to be responsiveness.

I think the technology has evolved to a point where it's feasible to have a highly responsive camera even with the high megapixels. Advanced dual processors, better buffer management hardware/firmware, faster storage cards, dual slots, etc. Collectively, all of these should aid in a setup that is just as fast if not faster than the current top notch performers; even with the increased megapixels.

The only real problem with increased megapixels is the pixel density on the sensor and associated increase in noise levels. It would be interesting to see how they address that.

As for your video concerns, I think it only affects the pricing. I see it as a positive because it will definitely change the way memories are captured currently. The still and video coverages for an event are still being seen differently, but some are getting creative and merging the two to create a more immersive experience in revisiting those memories!
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: dgsphto on August 18, 2011, 06:17:04 PM
With four card slots they could implement RAID 5. ;D

I know you are joking about the raid, but it could really be an option too (that would be customizable by the users).

At the moment, it seems separate file writes though....for ex. Buffer has 30 images in the queue to be written to the cards, it starts writing alternate ones to both the cards parallely. Thus a file resides entirely on one card but the collection of images is split between the multiple cards.
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: KrisU on August 18, 2011, 06:23:33 PM
With four card slots they could implement RAID 5. ;D

I know you are joking about the raid, but it could really be an option too (that would be customizable by the users).

At the moment, it seems separate file writes though....for ex. Buffer has 30 images in the queue to be written to the cards, it starts writing alternate ones to both the cards parallely. Thus a file resides entirely on one card but the collection of images is split between the multiple cards.

I am only partially joking about RAID.  It certainly solves the data integrity problem (i.e. one card fails, but no images are lost), and it could help alleviate some of the throughput problems (I'm not sure exactly where the bottleneck is, though).
Title: Re: Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: Bob Howland on August 18, 2011, 06:25:34 PM
If you release the 1D first all the pros buy it as it is the best most modern camera available to them. Then when the 5D is released, the people who were always too poor to buy the 1Ds will buy that and the people who could afford both will buy it too.

Consider an alternative line of thinking. Canon has already established the precedent that there would be a 5D3 which has the same resolution as a 1Ds4. The professionals' current cameras are presumably still taking pictures so, unless they are losing business because their clients demand the latest and greatest, they don't actually have to buy anything. They can just wait a year for the 5D3 and save themselves some money.

Even if Canon announced that there will be no 5D3, they wouldn't be believed. (Nikonians are still waiting for the D700x and D700s.) Introducing the 5D3 first or simultaneously makes a very public statement about what it is.
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: dgsphto on August 18, 2011, 06:40:15 PM
With four card slots they could implement RAID 5. ;D

I know you are joking about the raid, but it could really be an option too (that would be customizable by the users).

At the moment, it seems separate file writes though....for ex. Buffer has 30 images in the queue to be written to the cards, it starts writing alternate ones to both the cards parallely. Thus a file resides entirely on one card but the collection of images is split between the multiple cards.

I am only partially joking about RAID.  It certainly solves the data integrity problem (i.e. one card fails, but no images are lost), and it could help alleviate some of the throughput problems (I'm not sure exactly where the bottleneck is, though).

In that case you will have to use the camera as a reader. As you already know, Striped cards will not be read individually. Users will have to chose between speed (buffer writes alternate files to separate cards parallely) or security (same file is written to both the cards).

I think the current more common scheme is Jpeg on 1 and Raw on the other.
Title: Re: Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: JasonM on August 18, 2011, 06:44:28 PM
It makes absolute perfect sense to announce the Pro body first...to get it into the hands of the Pro photographers who will be walking advertisements for Canon at next year's Olympics.

Oh, they will probably have both the bodies available by then allright! It's just the launch and initial avaiability could be staggered by a few months.

5D3 (single DIGIC5, 5 fps) and a new FF 1D5 (dual DIGIC5, 9 fps) which will be the single 1D series will be announced together.  7D2 will follow next summer.   All will have lower noise and improved DR.   All will have improved video to satisfy those that want it but still photo features will never be compromised in favor of video in any Canon DSLR.  I have no idea, just throwing it out there.

Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: JasonM on August 18, 2011, 06:52:05 PM


I am only partially joking about RAID.  It certainly solves the data integrity problem (i.e. one card fails, but no images are lost), and it could help alleviate some of the throughput problems (I'm not sure exactly where the bottleneck is, though).

Minimum for RAID5 is only 3 drives but RAID5 schemes have much slower write speeds than single drives.  Also, to take the cards out and read them by a computer you'd also have to have a 3 (or 4) card reader and the order would be important.
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: ursinus71 on August 18, 2011, 06:58:15 PM
Quote
@fyngyrz - Not looking for megapixels -- 21 is already too many for FF. Huge files, slow transfers, slow processing.

You just need a faster computer. 21mp is quite zippy on a fast machine. A fast i7, 16gb ram, fast HDD makes all the difference in the world.

Quote
@fyngyrz - You know... things that will actually improve the images and the regimes, and the shooting experience, as opposed to giving us, yet again, an even more detailed view of the flaws in the lenses.

Sorry, but this is quite ill-informed. A camera like the 5d2 matched up with even a cheap high quality lens like the 85mm f/1.8 yields absolutely stunning image quality. I think your view is based on rhetoric and stereotypes. Go to DXO labs and look at real data, or look at 100% images from large sensor, large mp cameras, shot with good lenses. You're way off base.

Title: Re: Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: c-law on August 18, 2011, 07:00:11 PM
If you release the 1D first all the pros buy it as it is the best most modern camera available to them. Then when the 5D is released, the people who were always too poor to buy the 1Ds will buy that and the people who could afford both will buy it too.

Consider an alternative line of thinking. Canon has already established the precedent that there would be a 5D3 which has the same resolution as a 1Ds4. The professionals' current cameras are presumably still taking pictures so, unless they are losing business because their clients demand the latest and greatest, they don't actually have to buy anything. They can just wait a year for the 5D3 and save themselves some money.

Even if Canon announced that there will be no 5D3, they wouldn't be believed. (Nikonians are still waiting for the D700x and D700s.) Introducing the 5D3 first or simultaneously makes a very public statement about what it is.
A good take on the issue. I just hear a lot of complaining that the 1Ds is so old and the 5D is so old that I assume there are people out there with money literally burning a hole in their pockets for new tech right now.

If you're willing to wait and you're in it purely for the MP gain then the 1Ds might not tempt you.

Chris
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: KrisU on August 18, 2011, 07:03:36 PM


I am only partially joking about RAID.  It certainly solves the data integrity problem (i.e. one card fails, but no images are lost), and it could help alleviate some of the throughput problems (I'm not sure exactly where the bottleneck is, though).

Minimum for RAID5 is only 3 drives but RAID5 schemes have much slower write speeds than single drives.  Also, to take the cards out and read them by a computer you'd also have to have a 3 (or 4) card reader and the order would be important.

RAID 5 performs a (N-1)x the speed of a single drive, for both read and write.  IOW, with 4 cards, the performance would be 3x that of a single card.  Performance only suffers in the case of a failed card, but that seems like a reasonable tradeoff to me. (Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAID (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAID))

As was already pointed out, the best option for getting the images off is via a cable from the camera to the computer, which does have some disadvantages.
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: gene_can_sing on August 18, 2011, 07:12:09 PM
"since we got the 5D2 - 3 years ago, we haven't sold a single 1DsIII.

The 5Dmk2 was probably closer to the 1Dsmk3 for many people than it was different. That’s why I said that as long as they have enough differentiators, they have the potential for double dip with launching the 5Dmk3 first and then the 1Dsmk4.

I think Canon has learnt their lesson with the 5Dmk2 eating into the 1Dsmk3 sales which is why there was probably a lot of talk about Canon reorganizing the prosumer and pro lines.

All i say is - it had better have a dual memory card slot and better focusing, or the D800 is me!

Amen!

I highly doubt they will put Dual Memory slots on the 5D3. That's a feature that will be for the 1D. If they started doing stuff like that, people would have no reason to buy a 1D at all.

I'm still hoping for 2 different 5Ds, 1 for stills and 1 geared more towards video.
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: JasonM on August 18, 2011, 07:25:37 PM


I am only partially joking about RAID.  It certainly solves the data integrity problem (i.e. one card fails, but no images are lost), and it could help alleviate some of the throughput problems (I'm not sure exactly where the bottleneck is, though).

Minimum for RAID5 is only 3 drives but RAID5 schemes have much slower write speeds than single drives.  Also, to take the cards out and read them by a computer you'd also have to have a 3 (or 4) card reader and the order would be important.

RAID 5 performs a (N-1)x the speed of a single drive, for both read and write.  IOW, with 4 cards, the performance would be 3x that of a single card.  Performance only suffers in the case of a failed card, but that seems like a reasonable tradeoff to me. (Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAID (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAID))

As was already pointed out, the best option for getting the images off is via a cable from the camera to the computer, which does have some disadvantages.

I don't think so... even with the use of dedicated, caching controllers RAID0 doesn't quite get Nx performance increases and without a dedicated hardware RAID controller the "write penalty" of computing and writing the parity bit is large in a RAID5 array.  However, I can agree that the write penalty won't be as big writing large image files sequentially so perhaps I overstated by underlining the word "much".  But anyway, this issue has been debated ad nauseum by DBAs for a decade and there is no way Canon is going to put 3 card slots on any camera.
Title: Re: Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: neuroanatomist on August 18, 2011, 07:32:07 PM
Consider an alternative line of thinking. Canon has already established the precedent that there would be a 5D3 which has the same resolution as a 1Ds4.

Please explain how they established that precedent. The original 5D had lower resolution than the then-current 1Ds model. The 5D Mark II has the same resolution as the current 1Ds model. So, if I flip a coin and it's heads, and the next time it's tails, tails is the precedent, and the third flip will surely be tails? Woah baby, Vegas here I come!  The only 'precedent' I see is that the 5DIII will NOT have *more* resolution than the 1DsIV, and even then, n=2 makes for a pretty flimsy precedent. 
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: sarangiman on August 18, 2011, 07:48:36 PM
Quote
I highly doubt they will put Dual Memory slots on the 5D3. That's a feature that will be for the 1D. If they started doing stuff like that, people would have no reason to buy a 1D at all.

And yet the Nikon puts dual card slots even in the lower end D7000...
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: gferdinandsen on August 18, 2011, 07:49:37 PM
With four card slots they could implement RAID 5. ;D

3 slots would be all, with four you could have RAID 1+0
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: Chewy734 on August 18, 2011, 07:55:11 PM
With four card slots they could implement RAID 5. ;D

3 slots would be all, with four you could have RAID 1+0

or RAID 6 ;)
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: KrisU on August 18, 2011, 08:12:20 PM


I am only partially joking about RAID.  It certainly solves the data integrity problem (i.e. one card fails, but no images are lost), and it could help alleviate some of the throughput problems (I'm not sure exactly where the bottleneck is, though).

Minimum for RAID5 is only 3 drives but RAID5 schemes have much slower write speeds than single drives.  Also, to take the cards out and read them by a computer you'd also have to have a 3 (or 4) card reader and the order would be important.

RAID 5 performs a (N-1)x the speed of a single drive, for both read and write.  IOW, with 4 cards, the performance would be 3x that of a single card.  Performance only suffers in the case of a failed card, but that seems like a reasonable tradeoff to me. (Ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAID (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAID))

As was already pointed out, the best option for getting the images off is via a cable from the camera to the computer, which does have some disadvantages.

I don't think so... even with the use of dedicated, caching controllers RAID0 doesn't quite get Nx performance increases and without a dedicated hardware RAID controller the "write penalty" of computing and writing the parity bit is large in a RAID5 array.  However, I can agree that the write penalty won't be as big writing large image files sequentially so perhaps I overstated by underlining the word "much".  But anyway, this issue has been debated ad nauseum by DBAs for a decade and there is no way Canon is going to put 3 card slots on any camera.

I agree that DBAs despise RAID5, and I also agree that we won't being seeing any flavor of RAID in any camera body anytime soon.  :)
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: Bokehmon on August 18, 2011, 09:46:49 PM
With four card slots they could implement RAID 5. ;D

3 slots would be all, with four you could have RAID 1+0

or RAID 6 ;)

ugh, why not just implement a 1.8inch SSD slot? i'm sure that'll take up less space than the 2 slots on a 1D...
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: Canihaspicture on August 18, 2011, 10:01:33 PM
Totally agree on the SSD idea... SSDs have faster read/write times than CF.
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: JasonM on August 18, 2011, 10:22:19 PM
Totally agree on the SSD idea... SSDs have faster read/write times than CF.

Only because they use a SATA interface and I believe that is what CFAST uses... ie. a CF card using a SATA interface.  Could it be, the next cameras from Canon, Nikon will be using next gen memory cards?
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: Bokehmon on August 18, 2011, 11:40:39 PM
Totally agree on the SSD idea... SSDs have faster read/write times than CF.

Only because they use a SATA interface and I believe that is what CFAST uses... ie. a CF card using a SATA interface.  Could it be, the next cameras from Canon, Nikon will be using next gen memory cards?

Is there even a point? The 100mb/s on the high end sandisks hardly provide any additional performance. The only thing i can think of that would utilize 100mb/s + would be 4K video  ::)
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: expatinasia on August 18, 2011, 11:58:35 PM
I am surprised that there is so much talk about RAID. I have always thought the reason Nikon offer dual memory slots is primarily for video, and also as a benefit to consumers, as buying 2x32GB is much cheaper than buying one 64GB.

If you are just taking stills, it would be nice to have dual slots but not absolutely necessary. How many times have you had a SD card or such fail? And if you are shooting something important, double/triple back once you have finished.
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: JasonM on August 19, 2011, 12:28:16 AM
Totally agree on the SSD idea... SSDs have faster read/write times than CF.

Only because they use a SATA interface and I believe that is what CFAST uses... ie. a CF card using a SATA interface.  Could it be, the next cameras from Canon, Nikon will be using next gen memory cards?

Is there even a point? The 100mb/s on the high end sandisks hardly provide any additional performance. The only thing i can think of that would utilize 100mb/s + would be 4K video  ::)

The thought is, and it could be wrong, that with the next releases using DIGIC5 and over 30MP images writing to the memory card could become a bottleneck.
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: JasonM on August 19, 2011, 12:39:57 AM
I am surprised that there is so much talk about RAID. I have always thought the reason Nikon offer dual memory slots is primarily for video, and also as a benefit to consumers, as buying 2x32GB is much cheaper than buying one 64GB.

If you are just taking stills, it would be nice to have dual slots but not absolutely necessary. How many times have you had a SD card or such fail? And if you are shooting something important, double/triple back once you have finished.

They don't fail often but they can and for a pro shooting a wedding or sporting event a corrupted memory card would be a disaster.
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: afira on August 19, 2011, 12:44:41 AM
1D releases are always fourth or first quarter. An announcement in late August = a fourth or first quarter release. Coincides with end of year extra budget spending or budget planning for 2012 for major news agencies and advertising, and as someone mentioned earlier, the Olympics.

1Ds would be my second choice, re-badged as a 3D with heavy video capabilities.

5DMIII in the midyear cycle like the two previous releases for July 2012.

7DII in the midyear cycle in July 2013 for a four year release update. Cheaper 5DMII/III alternative for one year prior to release.

I have no idea where you guys are getting your RAIDX pipe dreams, but I'll take whatever you're having.
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: sarangiman on August 19, 2011, 01:07:38 AM
In the past 3yrs of shooting digital, I've had one SD card fail completely, & one CompactFlash card start to fail when it gets closer to capacity. And I don't shoot that much. That scares me for Engagement/Wedding shoots. Mirrored slots would be extremely welcome.
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: gmrza on August 19, 2011, 01:34:15 AM


His eyes lifted, "since we got the 5D2 - 3 years ago, we haven't sold a single 1DsIII. At 3 years the 5D3 would be more than a suitable release and more than able to match most of Nikons plans, It doesn't even need that much work to get them selling in volumes quicker than Canon can produce them, and certainly the equal of any D800 nikon might have to offer! This would leave Canon till Christmas to sort out their 1D stragey ready for the games..."


You've actually raised an interesting point:

There is a rather limited market for the 1DsIII - most shops, with the exception of pro dealers would not have sold many 1DsIIIs anyhow.  On the other hand the 5DII sells like hotcakes.

Even if the 5DII has cannibalised a lot of 1DsIII sales, the net result for Canon has probably been a good one.

It would not surprise me if the higher volumes make for better margins on the 5DII.  Is there anyone who has specific knowledge of this?  (I mean margins for Canon, not for distributors and retailers.)  Canon cannot go to market without the 1DsIII though, as then they would give up ground to Nikon.

If however Canon appeal more to the medium format market with the 1DsIV, that may change things.
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: NotABunny on August 19, 2011, 03:32:08 AM

All i say is - it had better have a dual memory card slot and better focusing, or the D800 is me!

Why does everyone go gaga over dual card slots?

Reliability!
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: Flake on August 19, 2011, 03:54:44 AM
I've a feeling that I'm going to be laughing my socks off when the first reviews of the new Nikon cameras come in.  So many reviewers blatently biased to Nikon have come up with every reason under the sun as to why the 12 MP count of the D3, D3s and D700 is actually better than a higher MP sensor, will now have to show an extraordinary double think when Nikon release a high MP count sensor.

For a long time Nikon have been behind the curve when it comes to sensors, the D1H only had 2.7MP at a time when Canon 1D had 4.5MP, The 1Ds had 11MP while the D1x was only 6MP.  Canon was all Cmos Nikon was CCD, but the proof of the quality is that there are still people using the 1Ds as a serious professional camera, while I've never seen anyone using a D1x because it won't cut it any more.  But look back at the reviews, and you'll find the ever present bias towards what now appear obviously inferior Nikon products.

I hope very much that the new Nikon is a good camera, and that it is reviewed objectively and fairly.  I hope it is a high MP count sensor, if only to wipe the smug grin of a friend with a D3 who delights in telling me how quickly his (small) files are processed, and how many shots he can get onto one 8GB card!
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: UncleFester on August 19, 2011, 03:55:37 AM



If however Canon appeal more to the medium format market with the 1DsIV, that may change things.

Based on cost and convenience? If I had a digital medium format, I would probably retire the 1ds to do faster work - sports, etc. MF would do all portraits, formal stuff, etc

I don't think they are competitive markets.
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: NotABunny on August 19, 2011, 04:04:52 AM
I hope it is a high MP count sensor, if only to wipe the smug grin of a friend with a D3 who delights in telling me how quickly his (small) files are processed, and how many shots he can get onto one 8GB card!

Nah, they'll just drop on their knees and with tear in their eyes they'll decry to all the gods that Nikon has subsided to the dark side, showing as proof a pixel from a 10 MP FF sensor compared to one from the new 20...30 MP FF sensor.
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: UncleFester on August 19, 2011, 04:11:52 AM
I've a feeling that I'm going to be laughing my socks off when the first reviews of the new Nikon cameras come in.  So many reviewers blatently biased to Nikon have come up with every reason under the sun as to why the 12 MP count of the D3, D3s and D700 is actually better than a higher MP sensor, will now have to show an extraordinary double think when Nikon release a high MP count sensor.

For a long time Nikon have been behind the curve when it comes to sensors, the D1H only had 2.7MP at a time when Canon 1D had 4.5MP, The 1Ds had 11MP while the D1x was only 6MP.  Canon was all Cmos Nikon was CCD, but the proof of the quality is that there are still people using the 1Ds as a serious professional camera, while I've never seen anyone using a D1x because it won't cut it any more.  But look back at the reviews, and you'll find the ever present bias towards what now appear obviously inferior Nikon products.

I hope very much that the new Nikon is a good camera, and that it is reviewed objectively and fairly.  I hope it is a high MP count sensor, if only to wipe the smug grin of a friend with a D3 who delights in telling me how quickly his (small) files are processed, and how many shots he can get onto one 8GB card!

The images I saw from a beta version of their flagship (not sure if they're using that exact model or not) were pretty impressive esp the low light pics. But, that photographer was also pretty impressed with the 5DII pics that I showed him. Hmmmm....
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: Gothmoth on August 19, 2011, 04:20:26 AM
Not looking for megapixels -- 21 is already too many for FF. Huge files, slow transfers, slow processing.

that´s why the new cameras get a new processor.


Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: BennyJ on August 19, 2011, 07:04:33 AM
But of course, what we'll GET is... more megapixels. Bigger files. Slower processing. Slower transfers. Oh yeah, and more effort wasted on trying to inappropriately multipurpose these beautiful still cameras into video cameras. And maybe a new battery style so as to obsolete the hugely expensive ones we've already bought. :(

Totally agree with you.
Title: Re: Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: Bob Howland on August 19, 2011, 07:53:35 AM
Consider an alternative line of thinking. Canon has already established the precedent that there would be a 5D3 which has the same resolution as a 1Ds4.

Please explain how they established that precedent. The original 5D had lower resolution than the then-current 1Ds model. The 5D Mark II has the same resolution as the current 1Ds model. So, if I flip a coin and it's heads, and the next time it's tails, tails is the precedent, and the third flip will surely be tails? Woah baby, Vegas here I come!  The only 'precedent' I see is that the 5DIII will NOT have *more* resolution than the 1DsIV, and even then, n=2 makes for a pretty flimsy precedent.

Oh, c'mon, don't go all statistical on me! Will you at least admit that a lot of people EXPECT that the 5D3 will have the same number of pixels as the 1Ds4 and would make their buying decisions based on that expectation? (The 5D2 is the more recent precedent and therefore is more salient.) The poster I was responding to certainly seemed to assume that.
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: Bob Howland on August 19, 2011, 07:58:28 AM
I've a feeling that I'm going to be laughing my socks off when the first reviews of the new Nikon cameras come in.  So many reviewers blatently biased to Nikon have come up with every reason under the sun as to why the 12 MP count of the D3, D3s and D700 is actually better than a higher MP sensor, will now have to show an extraordinary double think when Nikon release a high MP count sensor.

As I recall, most of them stopped arguing that when the D3x was introduced.
Title: Re: Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: -zero- on August 19, 2011, 09:20:12 AM
Oh, c'mon, don't go all statistical on me! Will you at least admit that a lot of people EXPECT that the 5D3 will have the same number of pixels as the 1Ds4 and would make their buying decisions based on that expectation? (The 5D2 is the more recent precedent and therefore is more salient.) The poster I was responding to certainly seemed to assume that.

5DII and 1DsIII have the same sensor probably for cost saving reasons, Canon probably thought it could differentiate these 2 models using the other features of the 1 series, what happened is what we all know 5DII cannibalized so much of the 1DsIII that it almost killed it

the fact that the sensors were the same made studio photographers think: why should I pay 2X the price for faster autofocus and weather sealing and tank like build in my studio with no IQ improovement


the recent rumors about a high mpx 5DIIi and very high mpx 1dsIV indicates that canon will not repeat the same mistake and (hopefully) put some more advanced features (autofocus, metering, fps ...) in the 5DII and differentiate from 1 series with mpx

Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: Vinniej on August 19, 2011, 11:34:04 AM
I've a feeling that I'm going to be laughing my socks off when the first reviews of the new Nikon cameras come in.  So many reviewers blatently biased to Nikon have come up with every reason under the sun as to why the 12 MP count of the D3, D3s and D700 is actually better than a higher MP sensor, will now have to show an extraordinary double think when Nikon release a high MP count sensor.

As I recall, most of them stopped arguing that when the D3x was introduced.

Many Nikon users would be more than happy with 20+ MP if the cost was reasonable and high iso performance was not sacrificed.  The D3x is great but Nikon needs something to compete with the price of the 5D MKIII when it comes to high MP count.
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: Bokehmon on August 19, 2011, 12:46:24 PM
I've a feeling that I'm going to be laughing my socks off when the first reviews of the new Nikon cameras come in.  So many reviewers blatently biased to Nikon have come up with every reason under the sun as to why the 12 MP count of the D3, D3s and D700 is actually better than a higher MP sensor, will now have to show an extraordinary double think when Nikon release a high MP count sensor.

As I recall, most of them stopped arguing that when the D3x was introduced.

The difference between 12 and 24 megapixels is not as big as most people make it to be. It is only like a 40%  increase in linear resolution... what would make a difference is a 24 megapixel camera without an AA filter, or a weak one. Moire is not as common bad as people make it seem, and it can be removed with PP.

In face, canon should design camera + lens profiles dpp and have all imported photos automatically processed. that way, lens design can concentrate on resolution and bokeh rather than distortion, CAs and vignetting.
Many Nikon users would be more than happy with 20+ MP if the cost was reasonable and high iso performance was not sacrificed.  The D3x is great but Nikon needs something to compete with the price of the 5D MKIII when it comes to high MP count.
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: LetTheRightLensIn on August 19, 2011, 12:49:43 PM

Why does everyone go gaga over dual card slots?

Data protection.  Memory cards do fail or get corrupted occasionally.

yeah but how often is that?
Over 6 years of sometimes extremely heavy usage I've had not a single failure.
So wouldn't something like say 6-8fps rather than 4fps be a MUCH bigger deal on it than dual card slots???
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: J-Man on August 19, 2011, 12:51:28 PM
Re: RAID, what about a 3 way parallel data dump from the buffer, to 3 cards, and optionally followed by parity calculations and their writes when the buffer is empty and the cards are not being used for new image files.
[card A] img1, img4... {par-bc} img2a, img3a...
[card B] img2, img5... {par-ac} img1b, img3b...
[card C] img3, img6... {par-ab} img1c, img2c...
so if card c fails, you get 2/3 of your images quickly, and the last 1/3 after recovery.
Combined with the future card sizes & USB3/Thunderbolt...CFast!
could be very useful.

I would also like to see wireless transfer built in, direct to ipad/tablet/laptop/network.

Re: binning, Any reasons why binning on sensor can't be done? It would have to work with a global shutter.

Re: "surprise everyone with a big megapixel camera"(to me big means close to 30MP).
The Nikon announcement is hardly a surprise, but what they announcement could be, D4, D800, D400 are the main contenders, I'm guessing 20ish MP for the D4, I wouldn't call that "big", could be the "surprise" is that it's more like 24MP, which the D400 could have too(same as a77).

Sony have an announcement also, though there is rumored to be no FF cameras till 2012, the a77 will have 24MP. A ~30MP FF announcement would be a surprise.

Samsung has an announcement coming, The NX200 is rumored to have 20MP, but I wouldn't call it "a big megapixel camera".

I think a Canon announcement would be the biggest surprise.:)


Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: LetTheRightLensIn on August 19, 2011, 12:55:24 PM
Not looking for megapixels -- 21 is already too many for FF. Huge files, slow transfers, slow processing.

Looking for better low light performance; lower noise; better EVF previewing for longer exposures; GPS; wireless downloading; wireless charging; programmable exposures longer than 30 seconds; Switchable IR filtering (or none... I'd be happy to slap an IR block filter on the lenses when shooting normally.) (C'mon Canon, don't you want to sell a boatload of highly profitable filters???)

You know... things that will actually improve the images and the regimes, and the shooting experience, as opposed to giving us, yet again, an even more detailed view of the flaws in the lenses.

But of course, what we'll GET is... more megapixels. Bigger files. Slower processing. Slower transfers. Oh yeah, and more effort wasted on trying to inappropriately multipurpose these beautiful still cameras into video cameras. And maybe a new battery style so as to obsolete the hugely expensive ones we've already bought. :(

I am *so* tired of "Hey, look more megapixels!" and frankly, I'm not going to buy unless the camera actually performs better. Increases in megapixels work *against* my buy-in. And no, throwing out half  or 3/4ths of the pixels in the camera isn't the right way to go -- the less sensor area involved in taking the shot, the more noise there will be. With a nominally high megapixel camera, you have to take the entire image and then bin the results in order to approach the actual noise reducing effect of larger sensels. So modes like SRAW and SRAW2 don't really help (unless the cameras are modified to do the binning, that would be a useful change.)

I like the extra reach and detail more MP gives, although at it's getting to the point I'd rather have a least a couple more fps than more MP although ideally I'd have 6.3fps+ plus more MP.

And I love that they added in video and I really hope DIGIC V can do proper scaling from the entire sensor each frame. It will get rid of all the nasty moire and artifacts andgratly boost SNR. Video would be truly phenominal at that point. I think it will. They will get killed by the video competitors if not. If they make things this fast they should also be able to do some binned stills modes too.

And yeah it sure would be nice if they lowered read noise and fixed banding so we get more DR.
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: LetTheRightLensIn on August 19, 2011, 01:00:53 PM


His eyes lifted, "since we got the 5D2 - 3 years ago, we haven't sold a single 1DsIII. At 3 years the 5D3 would be more than a suitable release and more than able to match most of Nikons plans, It doesn't even need that much work to get them selling in volumes quicker than Canon can produce them, and certainly the equal of any D800 nikon might have to offer! This would leave Canon till Christmas to sort out their 1D stragey ready for the games..."


Whichis why I think they need to stop protecting the darn 1Ds series so much and worry about D800 and such and soup up the 5 series so it's not just a great sensor in a Rebel performance body.


You've actually raised an interesting point:

There is a rather limited market for the 1DsIII - most shops, with the exception of pro dealers would not have sold many 1DsIIIs anyhow.  On the other hand the 5DII sells like hotcakes.

Even if the 5DII has cannibalised a lot of 1DsIII sales, the net result for Canon has probably been a good one.

It would not surprise me if the higher volumes make for better margins on the 5DII.  Is there anyone who has specific knowledge of this?  (I mean margins for Canon, not for distributors and retailers.)  Canon cannot go to market without the 1DsIII though, as then they would give up ground to Nikon.

If however Canon appeal more to the medium format market with the 1DsIV, that may change things.
Title: Re: Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: LetTheRightLensIn on August 19, 2011, 01:04:15 PM
Consider an alternative line of thinking. Canon has already established the precedent that there would be a 5D3 which has the same resolution as a 1Ds4.

Please explain how they established that precedent. The original 5D had lower resolution than the then-current 1Ds model. The 5D Mark II has the same resolution as the current 1Ds model. So, if I flip a coin and it's heads, and the next time it's tails, tails is the precedent, and the third flip will surely be tails? Woah baby, Vegas here I come!  The only 'precedent' I see is that the 5DIII will NOT have *more* resolution than the 1DsIV, and even then, n=2 makes for a pretty flimsy precedent.

Oh, c'mon, don't go all statistical on me! Will you at least admit that a lot of people EXPECT that the 5D3 will have the same number of pixels as the 1Ds4 and would make their buying decisions based on that expectation? (The 5D2 is the more recent precedent and therefore is more salient.) The poster I was responding to certainly seemed to assume that.

I kind of hope it won't. I could see a super high 40MP 1Ds studio cam and then a faster, more general say 28MP 5D3.

Then again Canon will probably toss us a 5D3 with 40MP and 1fps and 3pt AF (non-cross) and cheer when the Nikon D800 with 7fps and their top AF arrives with 'only' 24 MP....
Title: Re: Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: LetTheRightLensIn on August 19, 2011, 01:05:22 PM
Oh, c'mon, don't go all statistical on me! Will you at least admit that a lot of people EXPECT that the 5D3 will have the same number of pixels as the 1Ds4 and would make their buying decisions based on that expectation? (The 5D2 is the more recent precedent and therefore is more salient.) The poster I was responding to certainly seemed to assume that.

5DII and 1DsIII have the same sensor probably for cost saving reasons, Canon probably thought it could differentiate these 2 models using the other features of the 1 series, what happened is what we all know 5DII cannibalized so much of the 1DsIII that it almost killed it

the fact that the sensors were the same made studio photographers think: why should I pay 2X the price for faster autofocus and weather sealing and tank like build in my studio with no IQ improovement


the recent rumors about a high mpx 5DIIi and very high mpx 1dsIV indicates that canon will not repeat the same mistake and (hopefully) put some more advanced features (autofocus, metering, fps ...) in the 5DII and differentiate from 1 series with mpx

indeed, and one can only hope
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: c-law on August 19, 2011, 01:49:26 PM

Why does everyone go gaga over dual card slots?

Data protection.  Memory cards do fail or get corrupted occasionally.

yeah but how often is that?
Over 6 years of sometimes extremely heavy usage I've had not a single failure.
So wouldn't something like say 6-8fps rather than 4fps be a MUCH bigger deal on it than dual card slots???
How often does that happen? How often does it need to happen to ruin your reputation?

Chris
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: ursinus71 on August 27, 2011, 04:16:58 PM
Quote
: fyngyrz on August 19, 2011, 05:47:26 AM

    But of course, what we'll GET is... more megapixels. Bigger files. Slower processing. Slower transfers. Oh yeah, and more effort wasted on trying to inappropriately multipurpose these beautiful still cameras into video cameras. And maybe a new battery style so as to obsolete the hugely expensive ones we've already bought.

Again fyngyrz this is ill-informed. Nothing is sacrificed to incorporate video. You're paying more for the overall camera, but it certainly doesn't mean that they cut corners in the still dept. This is another cliched criticism that has no basis in reality.
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: neuroanatomist on August 27, 2011, 05:31:12 PM
Nothing sacrificed?  How do you know?  R&D dollars (or yen, in this case) are finite. Engineering (soft- or hard-ware) effort devoted to video capability cannot be used for still capabilities. Granted, many features overlap, but some do not.
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: epsiloneri on August 27, 2011, 05:45:35 PM
Nothing sacrificed?  How do you know?

Off course he doesn't know, but it's not an unreasonable assumption. It could be that the effort that goes into video results in more sales of the camera (fair assumption) and by doing so effectively decreases the price per unit (including R&D $$), compared to what would have been the case if there was no video. I'm not saying this is the case, but I think that it reasonably could be. As long as video features do not conflict with still features, I see no point in complaining.
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: -zero- on August 27, 2011, 11:55:32 PM
Nothing sacrificed?  How do you know?

Off course he doesn't know, but it's not an unreasonable assumption. It could be that the effort that goes into video results in more sales of the camera (fair assumption) and by doing so effectively decreases the price per unit (including R&D $$), compared to what would have been the case if there was no video. I'm not saying this is the case, but I think that it reasonably could be. As long as video features do not conflict with still features, I see no point in complaining.

money spent on developing new technology for video on a dslr is money that cannot be spend developing new technology for stills on the same dslr

I think this is what neuro was saying
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: epsiloneri on August 28, 2011, 03:55:38 AM
money spent on developing new technology for video on a dslr is money that cannot be spend developing new technology for stills on the same dslr

And money spent on marketing is also money not spent on R&D. So would we get better and cheaper cameras if Canon spent no money on marketing but diverted it to R&D instead?
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: Orangutan on August 28, 2011, 09:17:34 AM
Nothing sacrificed?  How do you know?  R&D dollars (or yen, in this case) are finite. Engineering (soft- or hard-ware) effort devoted to video capability cannot be used for still capabilities. Granted, many features overlap, but some do not.

Which parts don't overlap?


The only thing I believe would be different about adapting a DSLR for video (vs. P&S) is the expectation of longer capture times, hence the need for heat dissipation.  For a DSLR that already has live view, adapting it for video may not be a true freebie, but it's damned close.  Furthermore, the heat dissipation R&D is only a bonus for still IQ.  If you want to save significant R&D money on a still camera  you'll need to get rid of Live View: that's where the R&D delta is likely found.

I invite critique of the above.
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: -zero- on August 28, 2011, 11:04:28 AM
money spent on developing new technology for video on a dslr is money that cannot be spend developing new technology for stills on the same dslr

And money spent on marketing is also money not spent on R&D. So would we get better and cheaper cameras if Canon spent no money on marketing but diverted it to R&D instead?

R&D and marketing department are independent from each other, companies allocate a specific amount for each (often the marketing is much cheaper than R&D) so more money on marketing has no impact on the R&D budget

but if you allocate a team of engineers to improve a video feature on a camera, the same team cannot work on another feature related to stills

money and manpower are often the same thing from the company point of view
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: neuroanatomist on August 28, 2011, 12:33:02 PM
companies allocate a specific amount for each (often the marketing is much cheaper than R&D) so more money on marketing has no impact on the R&D budget

Companies spend more on R&D than on Marketing?  Thanks!  With tropical storm Irene passing over my head, I really needed a laugh this afternoon...

Seriously, Canon often buys ad spots for the Super Bowl - and at a few million dollars for 30 seconds of air time, that would pay the salaries of a LOT of engineers.  I can say than in pharma, there are about $2 spent on marketing for every $1 spent on R&D - if I had to guess, I suspect the ratio may be even higher in the electronics industries.

Let's look at the numbers.  Canon's list of Marketing Subsidiaries and Affiliates (http://www.canon.com/corp/list04.html) sums up to around 17,000 employees - and that's just 'external' marketing, not internal staff.  Do you really think they are anywhere close to that staffing level for R&D?  I sure doubt it.

As for marketing spend not impacting R&D spend?  A nice second chuckle.  Of course it does - yes, they are separate lines on the ledger, but if more money is spent on one line, it has to come from somewhere...and most corporations are inclined to take first from R&D, because R&D spend doesn't provide an immediate return on investment.
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: epsiloneri on August 28, 2011, 12:41:31 PM
R&D and marketing department are independent from each other, companies allocate a specific amount for each (often the marketing is much cheaper than R&D) so more money on marketing has no impact on the R&D budget

Are you saying Canon cannot allocate funding between marketing and R&D as they wish?

but if you allocate a team of engineers to improve a video feature on a camera, the same team cannot work on another feature related to stills

If you had the money, you could hire another team of engineers, because:

money and manpower are often the same thing from the company point of view

Precisely. This is however besides the point. I'm sorry I did not explain it sufficiently, so let me repair my mistake by going into more detail:

The thesis is that there is a fixed amount of money available to R&D, and by spending money on video R&D, you are not spending it on still photography. Therefore, we would get better still photography cameras if Canon focused all their R&D towards still photography and forgot about video. This is your argument, correct?

But what if the assumption that there's a fixed amount of money available for R&D is wrong? What if Canon actually can afford to spend more money on R&D if there are more units sold and they make more profit? And then, what if developing video features contributes to more sold units and more profit for Canon? Then the R&D budget would be able to increase and not remain fixed. The total $$ spent on R&D would increase, and perhaps even the R&D spent on still photography would increase compared to the case when no video features were developed.

I took the example of marketing because it's so obvious (I thought) that they need marketing to sell products. If they took away all the marketing, they would sell very few units (in comparison), and because of that their total budget for R&D would not increase as you would perhaps naively think (because you directed funds from marketing) but would actually decrease (because the total $$ available would decrease).
Title: Re: *UPDATED* Big Megapixel Camera Next Week.
Post by: epsiloneri on August 28, 2011, 12:44:12 PM
With tropical storm Irene passing over my head, I really needed a laugh this afternoon...

Take care and hold your camera in a firm grip :) Good thing you still have internet.