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Rumors => EOS Bodies => Topic started by: Chris Burch on June 12, 2013, 01:51:23 AM

Title: Moire in the 1DX and 5D3
Post by: Chris Burch on June 12, 2013, 01:51:23 AM
I shot a wedding last weekend and the grooms' suits are showing up with a crazy amount of moire that I haven't seen before.  I was shooting a 1DX and 5D3 with a 24-40 f/2.8II and a 70-200 f/2.8II with natural light and flash and saw moire in every combination.  Here is a sample with the 1DX and 24-70 with flash.  Any thoughts on avoiding/correcting it?
Title: Re: Moire in the 1DX and 5D3
Post by: verysimplejason on June 12, 2013, 02:16:57 AM
I shot a wedding last weekend and the grooms' suits are showing up with a crazy amount of moire that I haven't seen before.  I was shooting a 1DX and 5D3 with a 24-40 f/2.8II and a 70-200 f/2.8II with natural light and flash and saw moire in every combination.  Here is a sample with the 1DX and 24-70 with flash.  Any thoughts on avoiding/correcting it?

Change the color and design of their coats.  ;D  Just joking, anyway,  here are some links on how to "reduce" them in LR.

http://photographylife.com/how-to-reduce-moire-in-lightroom-4 (http://photographylife.com/how-to-reduce-moire-in-lightroom-4)
http://www.texaschicksblogsandpics.com/lightroom-tutorial-what-is-moire-and-how-to-fix-it/ (http://www.texaschicksblogsandpics.com/lightroom-tutorial-what-is-moire-and-how-to-fix-it/)

And Photoshop:

http://photographylife.com/how-to-remove-moire-in-photoshop (http://photographylife.com/how-to-remove-moire-in-photoshop)
Title: Re: Moire in the 1DX and 5D3
Post by: wockawocka on June 12, 2013, 04:31:12 AM
Odd that Moire is starting to surface now. What firmware are you running?
Title: Re: Moire in the 1DX and 5D3
Post by: Chris Burch on June 12, 2013, 09:47:16 AM
I'm using the latest firmware on both cameras.
Title: Re: Moire in the 1DX and 5D3
Post by: Chris Burch on June 12, 2013, 11:10:56 AM
Thanks for the link to the LR info.  I knew I has seen a moire settings in there somewhere but hadn't thought about looking under the brush tool.  It seems to be doing decent job of at least removing the extra colors but the pattern still remains.  I'm having a terrible time of getting it to work the way it should too.  LR5 seems rather buggy to me so far.
Title: Re: Moire in the 1DX and 5D3
Post by: RVB on June 12, 2013, 03:42:02 PM
I shot a wedding last weekend and the grooms' suits are showing up with a crazy amount of moire that I haven't seen before.  I was shooting a 1DX and 5D3 with a 24-40 f/2.8II and a 70-200 f/2.8II with natural light and flash and saw moire in every combination.  Here is a sample with the 1DX and 24-70 with flash.  Any thoughts on avoiding/correcting it?

The lens is oversampling the sensor.another reason for high megapixel sensor's,the best way to avoid it is to use F8 or even F11 and let diffraction take care of this problem,the 24-70ii and 70-200ii are very sharp lenses,stopping down to diffraction territory will soften the lens....
Title: Re: Moire in the 1DX and 5D3
Post by: Superka on June 12, 2013, 04:12:31 PM
I use film and never had moire  :P
Title: Re: Moire in the 1DX and 5D3
Post by: RLPhoto on June 12, 2013, 06:02:18 PM
Your not alone. I get moire on very tight patterns on a super lenses like the 135L. Look at the tie...
Title: Re: Moire in the 1DX and 5D3
Post by: LetTheRightLensIn on June 18, 2013, 09:10:00 PM
For really gray stuff you use desaturate brush.

Some RAW decoders are more prone to color moire than others. ACR is very prone to color moire, but also produces superb fine micro-contrast. DPP has less color moire but a lot more zipper artifacts and doesn't quite extract the finest detail with as much micro-contrast and has very heavy handed and ugly NR. C1 is sort of between the two in some ways, it some gets dot line artifacts where super fine lines turn into dotted lines.
Title: Re: Moire in the 1DX and 5D3
Post by: TAF on June 18, 2013, 10:57:52 PM

The lens is oversampling the sensor.


I'm afraid I don't understand this statement.  A lens is an analog device; I don't see how it can "sample" anything.

Ideally, it provides a perfect image focused upon the sensor - that's the goal, is it not?  At worst, the image has lost some resolution, and perhaps has some aberrations introduced.  But moire isn't either of these two effects.  As the respondent below pointed out, you never see this sort of thing with film (an analog media).

So I would assume it is a byproduct of the way the system samples the sensor array and merges the four color pixels into one.  But the lens has nothing to do with that, unless you are suggesting that there is something inherent to the performance of the lens that causes this effect when the sensor samples.

Would you please explain this (or point me to a reference that does)?

Thank you.

Title: Re: Moire in the 1DX and 5D3
Post by: Mt Spokane Photography on June 18, 2013, 11:26:16 PM

The lens is oversampling the sensor.


I'm afraid I don't understand this statement.  A lens is an analog device; I don't see how it can "sample" anything.

Ideally, it provides a perfect image focused upon the sensor - that's the goal, is it not?  At worst, the image has lost some resolution, and perhaps has some aberrations introduced.  But moire isn't either of these two effects.  As the respondent below pointed out, you never see this sort of thing with film (an analog media).

So I would assume it is a byproduct of the way the system samples the sensor array and merges the four color pixels into one.  But the lens has nothing to do with that, unless you are suggesting that there is something inherent to the performance of the lens that causes this effect when the sensor samples.

Would you please explain this (or point me to a reference that does)?

Thank you.
Its a side effect that appears as you get higher frequencies in the image.   Unfortunately, once its captured, it can be reduced but not eliminated.
 
The part the lens plays is in delivering high resolution that lets the fine detail be projected on the sensor.  Stopping way down filters out the moirĂ© by reducing resolution.
 
https://support.nikonusa.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/9544/~/what-is-moir%E3%A9%3F (https://support.nikonusa.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/9544/~/what-is-moir%E3%A9%3F)
 
 
Title: Re: Moire in the 1DX and 5D3
Post by: sanj on June 18, 2013, 11:45:36 PM
That looks bad!! Like a cheap video camera. Thanks for sharing, I will be careful!
Title: Re: Moire in the 1DX and 5D3
Post by: Pi on June 19, 2013, 12:42:57 AM
Is that 100% zoom or it has been downsampled?
Title: Re: Moire in the 1DX and 5D3
Post by: Chris Burch on June 19, 2013, 10:51:14 AM
On mine, I cropped that down some, but it looked exactly like that at 1:1 view in LR.  I also pulled it up in another program to see if it was an LightRoom thing, but it looked the same there, too.
Title: Re: Moire in the 1DX and 5D3
Post by: TAF on June 19, 2013, 09:39:35 PM
Its a side effect that appears as you get higher frequencies in the image.   Unfortunately, once its captured, it can be reduced but not eliminated.
 
The part the lens plays is in delivering high resolution that lets the fine detail be projected on the sensor.  Stopping way down filters out the moirĂ© by reducing resolution.
 
https://support.nikonusa.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/9544/~/what-is-moir%E3%A9%3F (https://support.nikonusa.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/9544/~/what-is-moir%E3%A9%3F)
 
 
[/quote]

Thank you very much for pointing me to that explanation.  I get the picture now (sorry, couldn't resist).

Title: Re: Moire in the 1DX and 5D3
Post by: Chris Burch on June 20, 2013, 10:44:57 AM
The fine detail explanation makes sense now that I am shooting with the new 24-70, which is incredibly sharp.  I never had this issue with the old model.  This is an inconvenience I can definitely work around, though, because the new lens is exceptional.  I'll have to think about looking for it based on fabric patterns, because I doubt I'll ever notice it in the viewfinder.
Title: Re: Moire in the 1DX and 5D3
Post by: jrista on June 20, 2013, 11:52:22 AM
Stopping down to introduce diffraction is certainly one way to solve the problem. Another option might be to get a fine portrait softening filter, which would do the same thing, without eliminating your ability to use wider apertures if you need to blur out backgrounds or anything like that.

I suspect moire will become more of a problem as time goes on. All Canon cameras have AA filters, however they are being weakened. I can't imagine shooting portraits with a D800E or D7100...which completely lack AA filters. Personally, I'm an advocate for having an AA filter strong enough to avoid moire (which is the entire point in the first place). Most people complain about how "soft" the 7D is, however I'm happy to claim that I've never encountered moire from too weak an AA filter in any of my bird photography.

I certainly hope that the future doesn't continue to hold weaker AA filters, or none at all, as a general theme. I'd be rather dismayed if that ended up being the case.