canon rumors FORUM

Rumors => EOS Bodies => Topic started by: Canon Rumors on July 02, 2013, 12:14:32 AM

Title: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: Canon Rumors on July 02, 2013, 12:14:32 AM

A Revolution in Autofocus Unlocks the Potential of Live View

Dual Pixel CMOS AF is a groundbreaking technology from Canon that unlocks the potential └of Live View, changing forever the way users will capture video and still images with a DSLR camera. Dual Pixel CMOS AF powers incredibly smooth and consistent autofocus – like that └of a camcorder – so focus transitions are natural and subjects remain locked in even as they move. It also enables phenomenally accurate and faster-than-ever autofocus through an LCD monitor, allowing the user to realize the unique compositional freedom of angle that Live View is capable of providing. And the compatibility of Dual Pixel CMOS AF with 103* Canon EF lenses empowers the user with exceptional optical tools for nearly limitless creative options. All these remarkable advances are possible thanks to an innovative technological design. For the first time in an EOS camera, the individual pixels on the CMOS sensor are capable of both capturing light and performing phase-difference detection autofocus. This revolutionary leap in Live View autofocus performance cements Live View shooting as an outstanding complement to traditional viewfinder shooting, unleashing wonderful new possibilities for dynamic, creative, high quality video and still capture in more situations than ever before.


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Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: Famateur on July 02, 2013, 12:23:31 AM
Quote
A dedicated AF area selection button, positioned conveniently next to the shutter release, enables quick switching between modes, without having to take the camera away from the eye.

This sounds pretty cool! Maybe don't need the D-Pad after all?

I'm excited to see the Dual Pixel AF in action...
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: Jan Jasinski on July 02, 2013, 12:26:21 AM
There's already a video of the 70D, it's actually smaller than the 60D!
http://m.usatoday.com/article/news/2480809 (http://m.usatoday.com/article/news/2480809)
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: neuroanatomist on July 02, 2013, 12:27:57 AM
Interesting and promising.  Still not as fast as true phase AF, I expect.

Still...I was considering the EOS M, but maybe I'll wait for the EOS M MkII with this technology...   ;)
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: expatinasia on July 02, 2013, 12:32:09 AM
This is pretty big news for those that do shoot video. Does it have a headphone socket?
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: Rienzphotoz on July 02, 2013, 01:11:39 AM
Does it have a headphone socket?
Good question ... headphone socket will make this, already, incredible camera even more attractive.
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: Swphoto on July 02, 2013, 01:16:04 AM
Does it have a headphone socket?
Good question ... headphone socket will make this, already, incredible camera even more attractive.

I see a mic input, but nothing for headphones: http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canon-eos-70d/5 (http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canon-eos-70d/5)
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: Mark D5 TEAM II on July 02, 2013, 01:17:07 AM
Quote
Does it have a headphone socket?

It doesn't appear to have one based on the pics I've seen, unfortunately. Also, the remote control terminal is the Rebel-class E3-type connector as opposed to the N3-type connector used by the higher-end bodies. Also, no PC sync terminal like the 60D & 6D  :-\.
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: LowBloodSugar on July 02, 2013, 01:32:36 AM
They have all the pieces of the formula now!  Its only a matter of time until canon makes a proper mirror-less EF compatible camera!
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: expatinasia on July 02, 2013, 01:38:36 AM
Quote
Does it have a headphone socket?

It doesn't appear to have one based on the pics I've seen, unfortunately. Also, the remote control terminal is the Rebel-class E3-type connector as opposed to the N3-type connector used by the higher-end bodies. Also, no PC sync terminal like the 60D & 6D  :-\.

Yes, you are right. Strange move for a camera with so much video potential. The two video examples engadget has uploaded are pretty amazing in how easy it is to switch focus from one point to another.

I had been considering getting a XA20 but I will have to take a closer look at the 70D as it might meet my video needs better than the 1D X does, though the simple fact it does not have a headphone jack puts me off. Still this is a good move forward for DSLRs, and I am even more interested to see what they do with the 7D Mark II.
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: Radiating on July 02, 2013, 01:54:53 AM
It seems that they are essentially putting 2 pixels at every pixel site to help with autofocus. So in reality if I'm reading this right you have 40.4 megapixels in this body and are just always shooting in m-raw.

However the extra megapixels enable super amazing video autofocus.
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: shinjuku-thief on July 02, 2013, 02:12:17 AM
Yes, you are right. Strange move for a camera with so much video potential. The two video examples engadget has uploaded are pretty amazing in how easy it is to switch focus from one point to another.

Those focus pulls were ridiculously easy to do with this AF and the touch screen.
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: funkboy on July 02, 2013, 04:53:12 AM
Give me this technology in a G1X replacement with a lens faster than f/4 at the long end (& 25mm or wider on the short end) & I'll be all over it!

As I suspect a great many people here will be as well.

Although at the moment my "compact" camera has evolved into the 6D with the 40mm pancake on it (my lovely Fuji X10 has been gathering dust since I got the 6D).  Once you go FF it's really hard to accept anything else...
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: pedro on July 02, 2013, 05:09:37 AM
Is there any news about their fabricating process? Does the sensor apply to the former 500nm or did Canon change to 180nm, 90nm, or even 65nm parts?
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: hamada on July 02, 2013, 05:16:22 AM
Is there any news about their fabricating process? Does the sensor apply to the former 500nm or did Canon change to 180nm, 90nm, or even 65nm parts?

+1... would like to know that.

and as nice as better live view AF is.
im sure video guys will love it. but overall i only shoot 20 minutes video since 2009 with a DSLR.  ;)
and i use live view only for tethered studio shots.... where i have all the time to focus.
so no big deal for me.

for me image quality is the most important point.
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: M.ST on July 02, 2013, 06:18:52 AM
The new AF-system is faster, but can´t beat the AF-system of the HG3, G6 and GF6.

The 19-point-AF-system is the 7D AF system. I call it product recycling.

Under the line the 70D is no big deal, but very attractive (for beginners and advanced hobby photographers) for the price.
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: thelebaron on July 02, 2013, 06:56:58 AM
i think docu/wedding videographers will be all over this, and it also would be great for casual family stuff
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: thelebaron on July 02, 2013, 06:58:14 AM
really interested to see how the next professional body will be with all these things at the lower tiers(integrated wifi, touchscreen, video autofocus).
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: hamada on July 02, 2013, 07:20:10 AM
The new AF-system is faster, but can´t beat the AF-system of the HG3, G6 and GF6.


i had the GF6 for a couple of days the AF is not that impressive.
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: aj1575 on July 02, 2013, 07:23:54 AM
Does anyone of you wonder how Canon made it possible to read out AF-informations out of about 24 million photodiodes and process them? This is quite amazing that they were able to do this. I have no idea how this actually works. I have no problem to understand how they do it with their linear or crosstype sensor; there they have 19 or 53 or something, now they have 12 millions!?!.

Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: Woody on July 02, 2013, 07:26:18 AM
The new AF-system is faster, but can´t beat the AF-system of the HG3, G6 and GF6.

Prove this
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: Bob Howland on July 02, 2013, 07:26:59 AM
Interesting and promising.  Still not as fast as true phase AF, I expect.

Still...I was considering the EOS M, but maybe I'll wait for the EOS M MkII with this technology...   ;)

For video, I would not want instantaneous autofocus, since that would provide no transition period. I would, however, want the autofocus to be smooth, with no hunting whatsoever, basically a superb electronic implementation of a highly-skilled focus puller (i.e., first assistant cameraman). (High slew rates provide faster response but are more prone to hunting.)

As for the M MkII, I agree completely, something to replace my G10 but with superb ISO6400 image quality and a decent EVF.
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: Dylan777 on July 02, 2013, 08:39:50 AM
I'm interested...for video ;)
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: jasonsim on July 02, 2013, 08:41:49 AM
Does it have AFMA?
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: garyknrd on July 02, 2013, 09:26:29 AM
 The movie AF is of interest to me. Will not buy the 70D camera, but if the technology is really that good. Hope they start implementing it in other cameras?  I have tried video with the birds I shoot and it is a real pain. This is a great feature. Right up my alley. I really want to get into wildlife videos. Looks like a fun and interesting hobby.
Things are looking up for me with this technology.
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: weixing on July 02, 2013, 09:47:06 AM
Hi,
    If this dual cmos AF going into their compact camera, it'll be very interesting... ;D

    I'm thinking of getting a SX50 to complement my EF 400mm F5.6L for birding, now I think I'll wait for the next model and hopefully, they'll incorporate this into their next generation of ultra zoom camera... hmm... actually, the SX50 pixel is already so small, just wonder can they still maintain usable ISO 800 if split it into 2???

   Have a nice day.
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: traveller on July 02, 2013, 10:08:33 AM
The proof of this pudding will be the new sensor; if it can catch up with (or surpass) the competition, the 70D will be regarded as a great camera.  If this new 20.2MP APS-C sensor is simply a rework of previous designs, the 70D will be seen as just another re-hash of the same old formula Canon, with yet more emphasis placed upon video.     
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: rs on July 02, 2013, 10:17:30 AM
Interesting development.

For some number of pixels, it is going to reduce (halve?) the amount of light that is received by the photo diode.

If this is the green pixels, as suggested by some diagrams, then it may make little/no overall difference as there are already twice as many green receptors as there are red/blue.

Additionally, this means that there will be some pixels that do not record the same level of light as others. This will need a bit of new fancy footwork for raw converters to properly evaluate what it means to have a pixel that is not and will never have the same luminosity as all of the others around it.

This has potential to have an adverse impact on noise simply due to there being less signal available.

Will be interesting to see the outcome!
Each and every of those 20.2 million active pixels that makes up the picture (whether red, green or blue) is divided into two pixels. One for the left phase, and the other for the right phase. They both hide behind one micro lens, and are positioned next to each other (hopefully without any appreciable gap, as that might cause a strange bokeh effect) to receive the phases. Combined, they theoretically cover pretty much the same area as a conventional photodiode, and should give the same light gathering capability. Its no more than pixel binning to recreate a normal image from this sensor, with normal light gathering capabilities.

So in theory this dual pixel configuration should have no detrimental effects on SNR over a conventional 20.2MP APS-C sensor. Let's hope they've used a new sensor fabrication process to manufacture this sensor, to bring along the much anticipated (and reported) improvements in SNR - I'm guessing that was is in effect a 40.4 MP APS-C sensor would be next to impossible to make with the old sensor fabrication process.
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: jrista on July 02, 2013, 10:35:29 AM
According to DPR (http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canon-eos-70d/3 (http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canon-eos-70d/3)), it sounds like PDAF in live view/video recording is possible ANYWHERE in the covered area of the sensor (80% of the central region). That seems pretty impressive...once live view or video AF tracking kicks in, it wouldn't matter where the subject was...there are theoretically no AF points in that mode...the entire sensor is an AF sensor at that point. Sounds like some intriguing new tech to me. :)
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: miejoe on July 02, 2013, 10:43:39 AM
There's a video on the Canon Global website that shows some nice diagrams and explains the process.

http://www.canon.com/news/2013/jul02e.html (http://www.canon.com/news/2013/jul02e.html)

Hopefully the added circutry and the inevitable gap from doubling the number of photoreceptors is very small and gives a minimal loss of SNR.

I'm also hoping that the pixels aren't all split in a left/right horizontal pattern, as the video shows, but that half of them are split vertically, because no one would want the AF system to be sensitive to horizontal contrast only.
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: neuroanatomist on July 02, 2013, 10:47:18 AM
I'm also hoping that the pixels aren't all split in a left/right horizontal pattern, as the video shows, but that half of them are split vertically, because no one would want the AF system to be sensitive to horizontal contrast only.

Based on what I've read, including a statement from Chuck Westfall who was asked for clarification on the matter, they are all split in the same direction.  That means the Dual Pixel CMOS phase AF system is a giant vertical line sensor, responsive only to horizontally-oriented details.
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: traveller on July 02, 2013, 11:05:13 AM
I'm also hoping that the pixels aren't all split in a left/right horizontal pattern, as the video shows, but that half of them are split vertically, because no one would want the AF system to be sensitive to horizontal contrast only.

Based on what I've read, including a statement from Chuck Westfall who was asked for clarification on the matter, they are all split in the same direction.  That means the Dual Pixel CMOS phase AF system is a giant vertical line sensor, responsive only to horizontally-oriented details.

This will be the 80D's big selling point - "Cross-type Dual Pixel CMOS"  ;D
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: Random Orbits on July 02, 2013, 11:12:51 AM
I'm also hoping that the pixels aren't all split in a left/right horizontal pattern, as the video shows, but that half of them are split vertically, because no one would want the AF system to be sensitive to horizontal contrast only.

Based on what I've read, including a statement from Chuck Westfall who was asked for clarification on the matter, they are all split in the same direction.  That means the Dual Pixel CMOS phase AF system is a giant vertical line sensor, responsive only to horizontally-oriented details.

Any guess as to whether the next generation will have a quad split (2x2) to do both vertical and horizontal or would it be better to use the next neighboring pixel of of the same color instead?
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: tron on July 02, 2013, 11:18:57 AM
If they like "playing" with the sensors they might as well make a lower noise/higher DR one  ::)  ;D  8)
(Let the debates begin... )
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: tron on July 02, 2013, 11:34:54 AM
Or to put it another way, the noise characteristics of the 70D should be about that for a 40MP APS-C sensor using the same sensor technology without the PDAF split.
But then the two parts are combined to one pixel so it isn't it a kind of pixel binning?
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: BruinBear on July 02, 2013, 12:20:51 PM
According the Canon the EOS 70D's Dual Pixel CMOS AF system has the following key characteristics:

Usable phase detection AF area covers 80% of the frame horizontally and vertically
AF works at apertures down to F11
AF works in light levels as low as 0 EV
Can work with face detection to keep moving subjects in focus

 :o
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: alan_k on July 02, 2013, 12:21:49 PM
This is from the DP-Review hands-on Preview (bold mine)

Quote
According the Canon the EOS 70D's Dual Pixel CMOS AF system has the following key characteristics:

    Usable phase detection AF area covers 80% of the frame horizontally and vertically
    AF works at apertures down to F11
    AF works in light levels as low as 0 EV
    Can work with face detection to keep moving subjects in focus

Does this mean, for example, I could get AF on a 70-300L + 2xTC, and if so, only in live-view?

e: you read my mind!!!  :o
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: neuroanatomist on July 02, 2013, 12:24:54 PM
This is from the DP-Review hands-on Preview (bold mine)

Quote
According the Canon the EOS 70D's Dual Pixel CMOS AF system has the following key characteristics:

    Usable phase detection AF area covers 80% of the frame horizontally and vertically
    AF works at apertures down to F11
    AF works in light levels as low as 0 EV
    Can work with face detection to keep moving subjects in focus

Does this mean, for example, I could get AF on a 70-300L + 2xTC, and if so, only in live-view?

e: you read my mind!!!  :o

Sure...but you could do that with Live View on any camera (although not with phase detect AF).
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: Mt Spokane Photography on July 02, 2013, 12:33:38 PM
I'm also hoping that the pixels aren't all split in a left/right horizontal pattern, as the video shows, but that half of them are split vertically, because no one would want the AF system to be sensitive to horizontal contrast only.

Based on what I've read, including a statement from Chuck Westfall who was asked for clarification on the matter, they are all split in the same direction.  That means the Dual Pixel CMOS phase AF system is a giant vertical line sensor, responsive only to horizontally-oriented details.

That's also what I surmised from Canon's video.  However, I believe that in Portrait mode, the sensor would be only seeing vertical details unless the camera is able to switch between the two automatically, which doesn't seem likely - at least not in a mid range model.
 
I am wondering about things like banding, or a new type of artifact that might appear due to the divided photo sensors.  That's pretty dependent on the actual fine details of how it works, something that we are not going to get from Canon.
 
As to patents, the sensor sounds like it uses this recent patent from Canon.
 
http://translate.google.com/translate?twu=1?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A//egami.blog.so-net.ne.jp/2012-08-12 (http://translate.google.com/translate?twu=1?sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A//egami.blog.so-net.ne.jp/2012-08-12)
 
After reading the patent document, I found it to be very complex, but it is almost certainly what we are seeing.
 
The wording is very engineering like, and looks like something intended for a mirrorless camera, which is why it was not anticipated to appear in a DSLR first.
 
While AF is said to be 30% faster, its obviously not yet going to beat conventional phase detect AF for speed.  However, with more computing horsepower as might happen with a dual Digic 5+ processor or a newer version of Digic, we might see the mirror go away for good.
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: @!ex on July 02, 2013, 12:58:26 PM
Here is another video showing what the focus pulls look like when you use the touchscreen to focus while you are shooting in live view.  It actually looks pretty nice.  They also have some examples of auto focus ect.  if you watch after the credits in the middle of the video they replay the video with an overlay showing focus info and some metadata.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tf0BBNr6Epk&feature=player_embedded (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tf0BBNr6Epk&feature=player_embedded)
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: funkboy on July 02, 2013, 07:50:56 PM
Does it have AFMA?

check the dprevew preview.

The 70D does have AFMA for the traditional 19 point AF sensor (unlike the 60D), but the dual pixel system doesn't need AFMA because the AF sensor & the image sensor are one in the same.
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: funkboy on July 02, 2013, 08:05:30 PM
If this thing is already doing pixel-binning for 40 half-pixels, wouldn't it be trivial to have it pixel-bin 4x and make a very nice noise-free 10MP image?  I'm sure that Digic5+ can handle that...

In the telecom world anyway, having 4 signals to work with (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-shift_keying#Quadrature_phase-shift_keying_.28QPSK.29) and compare makes a huge difference in the quality of the transmission.
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: Mt Spokane Photography on July 02, 2013, 09:14:59 PM
Does it have AFMA?

check the dprevew preview.

The 70D does have AFMA for the traditional 19 point AF sensor (unlike the 60D), but the dual pixel system doesn't need AFMA because the AF sensor & the image sensor are one in the same.

AFMA is certainly not well advertised, it wasn't in the specification, but is welcome.
 
Hopefully the new dual pixel AF is accurate, contrast detect in the 5D MK III has been shown to be inaccurate.  I think we will have to wait and see, the tolerances of a in photosite  phase detect system would need to be almost impossibly accurate, so there is likely some sort of calibration, and that implies mis-calibration is possible.
I'm sure we will find out.
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: neuroanatomist on July 02, 2013, 09:39:59 PM
AFMA is certainly not well advertised, it wasn't in the specification, but is welcome.

Canon USA doesn't list AFMA in the specs of any camera with the feature.   Canon UK does, though.
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: verysimplejason on July 03, 2013, 04:06:59 AM
I hope 6D mark II would have 3D sensor + 70D features.  :)
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: traveller on July 03, 2013, 05:06:30 AM
AFMA is certainly not well advertised, it wasn't in the specification, but is welcome.

Canon USA doesn't list AFMA in the specs of any camera with the feature.   Canon UK does, though.

The DPReview hands on preview also mentions that Canon have reinstated AFMA, so I'm guessing that this is an omission from the Canon USA website. 
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: dr croubie on July 03, 2013, 07:09:42 AM
If this thing is already doing pixel-binning for 40 half-pixels, wouldn't it be trivial to have it pixel-bin 4x and make a very nice noise-free 10MP image?  I'm sure that Digic5+ can handle that...

I'm pretty sure that's what the C300 does (http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/01/canon-super-35mm-cinema-sensor-explained/) (I'm not sure if it straight-out bins them or does something else fancy, but yes, it can be done...)
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: mb66energy on July 03, 2013, 07:11:22 AM
If this thing is already doing pixel-binning for 40 half-pixels, wouldn't it be trivial to have it pixel-bin 4x and make a very nice noise-free 10MP image?  I'm sure that Digic5+ can handle that...

In the telecom world anyway, having 4 signals to work with (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase-shift_keying#Quadrature_phase-shift_keying_.28QPSK.29) and compare makes a huge difference in the quality of the transmission.

The 70D has an mRAW mode with 11Mpix RAW file output - it isn't exactly 2x2 (sub)pixel binning which would lead to rectangular pixels ...

Here the information from the Japanese Canon website:
RAW:   5472×3648   20 MPixel    24 MByte
mRAW: 4104×2736  11,2MPixel    19 MByte
http://cweb.canon.jp/eos/lineup/70d/feature-highquality.html (http://cweb.canon.jp/eos/lineup/70d/feature-highquality.html)

The difference in file size doesn't justify using mRAW alone - perhaps DPP runs faster on the 11MPixel files so you can use an older PC for a longer time.
But if RAW stores the real raw information so it might be a better idea to use the full resolution and scale the images down to 10 MPixels afterwards! This is sth. like binning on a irregular way.

EDIT: Or use 5MPix: 2736 x 1824 Pixels - so you got 1 red, 2 green and 1 blue sensor pixel for each image pixel! - same resolution like the first implementation of foveons and real full color image pixels. In some cases probably helpful to get cleaner colors/contrasts with monochromatic light sources or software red filters.
Title: Re: Canon Dual Pixel Liveview Autofocus
Post by: akiskev on July 03, 2013, 10:13:55 AM
Impressive stuff!

If I was a pro focus puller, I'd be a little concerned :D :D :D