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Gear Talk => EOS Bodies - For Stills => Topic started by: JPlendPhoto on July 18, 2013, 07:02:16 AM

Title: 5D Mark II composition movement
Post by: JPlendPhoto on July 18, 2013, 07:02:16 AM
I have recently brought a Canon EOS 5D Mark II second hand. A few weeks ago I shot a wedding and noticed some of my shots where not composed well, first I thought this was me not paying attention but after the wedding I noticed that even though I didn’t recompose my shots, something in the camera is moving and altering what I see through the view finder, this happens more often when shooting portrait rather than landscape. Any idea why this is happening? Is there something in my camera which needs to be fixed?
Title: Re: 5D Mark II composition movement
Post by: Mt Spokane Photography on July 18, 2013, 10:13:52 AM
This can happen if you wear glasses, your eye only sees part of what is in the viewfinder, and the image is often a different composition.
 
This happens to me, so I often remove my glasses and get a better composition.  I'm far sighted, so its not a problem unless I try to see the settings on my camera and change them.
 
The 5D MK III has more eye relief, like the 1 series, so its not as bad, but it still happens.  My D800 had no eye cup, and I did not notice the issue while wearing glasses, but I only used it for a thousand shots over a month, most of them in a few nights, so I might not have discovered it.
Title: Re: 5D Mark II composition movement
Post by: MrFotoFool on July 18, 2013, 11:37:33 AM
Or maybe you are using an IS lens and the stabilizer is keeping the old framing while you are seeing the new framing?  Still the difference would be so slight I do not understand how you would notice it.  This is the most bizarre photo problem I have ever heard.  I use a 5Dii as my sole DSLR and have never experienced anything like that.
Title: Re: 5D Mark II composition movement
Post by: tiger82 on July 18, 2013, 11:52:08 AM
I have recently brought a Canon EOS 5D Mark II second hand. A few weeks ago I shot a wedding and noticed some of my shots where not composed well, first I thought this was me not paying attention but after the wedding I noticed that even though I didn’t recompose my shots, something in the camera is moving and altering what I see through the view finder, this happens more often when shooting portrait rather than landscape. Any idea why this is happening? Is there something in my camera which needs to be fixed?

Yup, blame the camera. 
Title: Re: 5D Mark II composition movement
Post by: neuroanatomist on July 18, 2013, 11:55:43 AM
...I noticed that even though I didn’t recompose my shots, something in the camera is moving and altering what I see through the view finder, this happens more often when shooting portrait rather than landscape.

Is this something you've tested and is it reproducible (not talking about just reviewing previously-taken shots)?  If you set up on a tripod and take a series of shots, does the composition change?
Title: Re: 5D Mark II composition movement
Post by: JPlendPhoto on July 18, 2013, 01:53:47 PM
I don’t wear glasses so it’s not that, and yes I do blame the camera as whatever is happening, it’s not human error.
Yes this is something I have tested on a tripod, basically as the photo is being taken (the camera is still not being moved) the framing all of a sudden changes. I have two photos to show you what I mean but it won’t let me upload them.
Title: Re: 5D Mark II composition movement
Post by: tiger82 on July 18, 2013, 02:00:46 PM
Compare the viewfinder with the Liveview image
Title: Re: 5D Mark II composition movement
Post by: dgatwood on July 18, 2013, 04:20:35 PM
Or maybe you are using an IS lens and the stabilizer is keeping the old framing while you are seeing the new framing?  Still the difference would be so slight I do not understand how you would notice it.

I've occasionally had an IS lens jump fairly significantly the moment I push the button down to focus, usually right after a period of extended inactivity.  I think it is caused by the lens going to sleep with the IS way, way off center, then centering itself when the lens first gets powered up.  If you framed the shot before you focused, then looked away, I could easily see you getting a shot that wasn't what you were expecting.
Title: Re: 5D Mark II composition movement
Post by: JPlendPhoto on July 18, 2013, 05:44:34 PM
Or maybe you are using an IS lens and the stabilizer is keeping the old framing while you are seeing the new framing?  Still the difference would be so slight I do not understand how you would notice it.

I've occasionally had an IS lens jump fairly significantly the moment I push the button down to focus, usually right after a period of extended inactivity.  I think it is caused by the lens going to sleep with the IS way, way off center, then centering itself when the lens first gets powered up.  If you framed the shot before you focused, then looked away, I could easily see you getting a shot that wasn't what you were expecting.

It seems to happen with every photo I take when shooting portrait, even when I am shooting landscape and point the camera down it seems to jump. I cant see it being IS because its also happening with my 50mm 1.8 which does not have IS.
Title: Re: 5D Mark II composition movement
Post by: tiger82 on July 18, 2013, 07:07:36 PM
Are you getting the same image in the Liveview display that you are seeing through the optical viewfinder?  One would assume that the LCD would be aligned with the sensor.
Title: Re: 5D Mark II composition movement
Post by: friedrice1212 on July 18, 2013, 07:36:13 PM
I shoot the Mark II also, and I had slight issues like this before, but I learned to live with it. I thought that it was because of the 98% viewfinder coverage that does not show me the entire frame. I shot with a T3i/600D before with 95% coverage and found the problem to be more apparent.
Title: Re: 5D Mark II composition movement
Post by: BozillaNZ on July 18, 2013, 08:11:00 PM
Now try to shake the camera, can you hear loud knocking sound? If you can then something is loose inside... Time for a trip to service center.
Title: Re: 5D Mark II composition movement
Post by: Jim Saunders on July 18, 2013, 08:22:45 PM
Try a different lens, preferably a different copy of what you have.  That'll give you some guidance about what to explore further.

Jim
Title: Re: 5D Mark II composition movement
Post by: brad-man on July 18, 2013, 09:01:00 PM
Sounds like the prism or the mirror box may be shifting, so what you see isn't exactly what the sensor "sees".
Title: Re: 5D Mark II composition movement
Post by: JPlendPhoto on July 19, 2013, 07:14:15 AM
Sounds like the prism or the mirror box may be shifting, so what you see isn't exactly what the sensor "sees".

Well I have found out that this problem occurs with each of my lenses, it does NOT happen when I am shooting in Live View and I am seeing in the viewfinder my view changes with each shot even if the camera is on a tripod.
So I guess this might be the prism which is shifting because I took some photos without the lens on and everything seemed ok from what I could see, it's just looking through the viewfinder which is not right meaning my photos do not come out as they should do. Is this fixable?
Title: Re: 5D Mark II composition movement
Post by: rs on July 19, 2013, 09:19:30 AM
As others have said, the 5D II has only a 98% viewfinder. The main reason for not having a 100% viewfinder isn't the cost of making it bigger, but the cost of aligning it accurately. Missing out 2% allows for some minor misalignment without the viewfinder seeing part of the frame beyond what the sensor would capture.

Are you able to see part of the frame in the viewfinder which is not captured by the sensor? If so, it suggests the alignment is out beyond the manufacturing tolerances, whereas if everything you see in the viewfinder is in the final image, just with an uneven amount of extra on the sides/above/below, then it is within spec, and something you'll probably have to learn to put up with.

Liveview uses the sensor exactly as taking the photo does - so no mirror/pentaprism/focus screen involved, and no chance of any alignment issues.

As you say the misalignment in the viewfinder is not varying from shot to shot, its unlikely to be anything loose, instead it will be something that's shifted. The user replaceable focusing screen might be out of place. What about re-seating that? If that doesn't work, has your second hand 5D mk II got any signs of drop damage, especially around the pentaprism? If so, you could try getting a quote out of Canon.
Title: Re: 5D Mark II composition movement
Post by: JPlendPhoto on July 20, 2013, 07:13:59 AM
Update: I will be taking it back to the shop I brought it from for them to look at it as it is still within the 3 month store warranty.
Title: Re: 5D Mark II composition movement
Post by: Krob78 on July 20, 2013, 11:11:37 AM
Update: I will be taking it back to the shop I brought it from for them to look at it as it is still within the 3 month store warranty.
Sounds like the best choice.  I thought it was the IS too, until you said it happens with all your IS lenses... 

Just out of curiosity, Do you have any non IS lenses and if so, does it happen with them?
Title: Re: 5D Mark II composition movement
Post by: JPlendPhoto on July 20, 2013, 11:59:19 AM
Update: I will be taking it back to the shop I brought it from for them to look at it as it is still within the 3 month store warranty.
Sounds like the best choice.  I thought it was the IS too, until you said it happens with all your IS lenses... 

Just out of curiosity, Do you have any non IS lenses and if so, does it happen with them?

Yes it happens with my 50mm 1.8 which is not IS
Title: Re: 5D Mark II composition movement
Post by: Krob78 on July 20, 2013, 12:08:19 PM
Update: I will be taking it back to the shop I brought it from for them to look at it as it is still within the 3 month store warranty.
Sounds like the best choice.  I thought it was the IS too, until you said it happens with all your IS lenses... 

Just out of curiosity, Do you have any non IS lenses and if so, does it happen with them?

Yes it happens with my 50mm 1.8 which is not IS
Man, that's crazy!  I hope they just hand you a new body!   ;D Good luck!!   Please let us know how it works out and if they repair it, what the issue was...
Title: Re: 5D Mark II composition movement
Post by: CharlieB on July 20, 2013, 01:02:13 PM
As others have said, the 5D II has only a 98% viewfinder. The main reason for not having a 100% viewfinder isn't the cost of making it bigger, but the cost of aligning it accurately. Missing out 2% allows for some minor misalignment without the viewfinder seeing part of the frame beyond what the sensor would capture.


+1

There is always a bit of variation when framing is critical.  Only the very top end cameras are going to give close to 100 percent coverage.   In a past life, I was able to critically align my Nikon F and also F2.  Not fun trying to get top, bottom, left and right all to focus on a screen correctly, and to have it also frame correctly.... but I digress.  Its a pain.

I bought an EOS-400 (XTi) that had a tilted sensor.  The tilt was a good 1-1/2 to 2 degrees clockwise.  Canon was able to correct most of it.... after two trips back. 

You'd expect some variation and imperfection in what was the bottom of the line camera when I bought it.  The 5Dii on the other hand... should be better. 

On the Nikon F, or any film camera, part of the complexity of alignment is the shape of the film as it lies against the rails.  It is not flat, and cannot be flat.  Film takes on a W shape when flattened on rails with a pressure plate, lifted in the center and edges, but contacting the plate  about 1/3 the way up and down from center.  On digital cameras... oh gosh... you have viewfinder accuracy, mirror accuracy, and sensor accuracy to contend with.... much different beast.
Title: Re: 5D Mark II composition movement
Post by: Tabor Warren Photography on July 21, 2013, 12:06:36 AM
As others have said, the 5D II has only a 98% viewfinder. The main reason for not having a 100% viewfinder isn't the cost of making it bigger, but the cost of aligning it accurately. Missing out 2% allows for some minor misalignment without the viewfinder seeing part of the frame beyond what the sensor would capture.

I didn't know this, but it makes complete sense!

Man I love this forum,
-Tabor

P.S. I know that was no use to anyone, but hopefully fellow camera geeks will appreciate my enthusiasm!
Title: Re: 5D Mark II composition movement
Post by: noisejammer on July 21, 2013, 12:37:23 AM
I came across a 1D Mk IV which had a similar problem. I eventually tracked it down to damage in the dioptre compensation mechanism. I suspect the camera was dropped which broke the supports leaving a lens group free to wander around. As the camera was tilted, the optic would change its attitude wrt the prism and you'd be looking at a different part of the screen.

Anyway, the repair was quite easy - replacing the assembly took less than half an hour.
Title: Re: 5D Mark II composition movement
Post by: JPlendPhoto on July 21, 2013, 04:18:49 AM
Update: I will be taking it back to the shop I brought it from for them to look at it as it is still within the 3 month store warranty.
Sounds like the best choice.  I thought it was the IS too, until you said it happens with all your IS lenses... 

Just out of curiosity, Do you have any non IS lenses and if so, does it happen with them?

Yes it happens with my 50mm 1.8 which is not IS
Man, that's crazy!  I hope they just hand you a new body!   ;D Good luck!!   Please let us know how it works out and if they repair it, what the issue was...

I go on holiday for two weeks on Friday so I won’t be able to get it fixed until I come back (the camera shop knows I’ll be coming). So I have to put up with this problem for a bit longer, but yes I’ll let everyone know what happens :)
Title: Re: 5D Mark II composition movement
Post by: JPlendPhoto on July 21, 2013, 04:24:53 AM
As others have said, the 5D II has only a 98% viewfinder. The main reason for not having a 100% viewfinder isn't the cost of making it bigger, but the cost of aligning it accurately. Missing out 2% allows for some minor misalignment without the viewfinder seeing part of the frame beyond what the sensor would capture.


+1

There is always a bit of variation when framing is critical.  Only the very top end cameras are going to give close to 100 percent coverage.   In a past life, I was able to critically align my Nikon F and also F2.  Not fun trying to get top, bottom, left and right all to focus on a screen correctly, and to have it also frame correctly.... but I digress.  Its a pain.

I bought an EOS-400 (XTi) that had a tilted sensor.  The tilt was a good 1-1/2 to 2 degrees clockwise.  Canon was able to correct most of it.... after two trips back. 

You'd expect some variation and imperfection in what was the bottom of the line camera when I bought it.  The 5Dii on the other hand... should be better. 

On the Nikon F, or any film camera, part of the complexity of alignment is the shape of the film as it lies against the rails.  It is not flat, and cannot be flat.  Film takes on a W shape when flattened on rails with a pressure plate, lifted in the center and edges, but contacting the plate  about 1/3 the way up and down from center.  On digital cameras... oh gosh... you have viewfinder accuracy, mirror accuracy, and sensor accuracy to contend with.... much different beast.

I see, that is interesting and does make sense. This problem has never happened with my 5 year old 450D and now with my 5D MKII it’s not a minor misalignment it’s a big one! I wish I could show you how much it is shifting when looking through the viewfinder, but sadly I can’t.
Title: Re: 5D Mark II composition movement
Post by: brad-man on July 21, 2013, 09:44:23 AM
Sounds like the issue would certainly be considered a defect, and the shop you purchased it from should repair/replace/refund after your trip. In the meantime, don't forget to leave yourself some cropping room ;)
Title: Re: 5D Mark II composition movement
Post by: rs on July 21, 2013, 10:16:52 AM
I wish I could show you how much it is shifting when looking through the viewfinder
If you tripod mount the camera, remove the eyecup and hold something like an iphone up flat against it, you can take an in-focus image of the entire viewfinder. That and a shot taken with the 5D2 from that same tripod position will do it.

However, that gets you nowhere other than satisfaction of proof. Taking it back to the shop as you've already arranged is the best course of action.