canon rumors FORUM

Rumors => EOS Bodies => Topic started by: Canon Rumors on September 08, 2011, 09:02:20 AM

Title: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: Canon Rumors on September 08, 2011, 09:02:20 AM
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<strong>Sony, Panasonic & Olympus knocking at the door</strong>

Bloomberg has written anÂ&nbsp;interestingÂ&nbsp;article the higher ups at Canon have certainly taken notice of. That being their dropping marketshare in Japan along with Nikon to the mirrorless segment.</p>
<p>I haven’t had a problem with Canon being last to the game. I don’t personally like any of the true mirrorless options (you don’t count M9), none of them feel like cameras to me. Lots of people do though, and that’s cool. I was eager to see what Nikon came up with, thoughÂ&nbsp;<a href="http://nikonrumors.com/2011/08/18/nikons-mirrorless-not-a-pro-camera-but-with-few-very-innovative-features.aspx/">it doesn’t look too exciting to me</a>.</p>
<p>I’ve always thought if Canon was going to get into it, they’d go all in. We’d see 3 mirrorless camera bodies, one high end mirrorless, a Canon M9 if you will (not a rangefinder). A prosumer middle camera body for the 5D user who wants IQ and portability, and then an entry level variant for the people that want more than a “G”.</p>
<p>I could be dreaming, or wishing. I’d just like to think Canon would be the company that did it right.</p>
<p><strong>From Bloomberg</strong></p>
<blockquote><p>Canon Inc. and Nikon Corp. the world’s two biggest makers of high-end cameras, may be missing out on the industry’s biggest technology shift since film rolls became obsolete.</p>
<p>The two Tokyo-based companies use mirrors in all cameras with interchangeable lenses, a technique Sony Corp. (6758) is shifting away from. As a result, Canon and Nikon’s combined share of the Japanese market has fallen by 35 percent, while Sony’s share has doubled, according to estimates at research firm BCN Inc.</p></blockquote>
<p><strong><a href="http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-07/canon-clinging-to-mirrors-means-opportunity-for-sony-cameras.html">Read More</a></strong></p>
<p><strong></strong><strong><span style="color: #ff0000;">c</span>r</strong></p>
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being \
Post by: bchernicoff on September 08, 2011, 10:02:30 AM
I know that EVFs are inevitable once the quality is as-good or better than a traditional view finder. I just don't think the technology is here yet. I look forward to trying out the recently announced Sonys to see how good it has gotten. Part of me wants to but a Zacuto zFinder not for video, but for better Live View when shooting stills.
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being \
Post by: clarkia on September 08, 2011, 10:05:45 AM
Interesting prediction: "Canon, the maker of EOS cameras, forecasts SLR camera sales will rise 24 percent this year, helping offset the fallout from the factory disruptions caused by Japan’s March 11 earthquake and tsunami." Unless, I'm reading this wrong, and I'm not sure about when their fiscal year starts, I doubt they could have an increase like that in SLRs with the current lineup and would have to provide something new that they can sell a lot of. Did they lose that many DSLR sales this year due to the earthquake? Perhaps it's just wishing, but there has to be a new body (not a rebel) in that mix to justify that percentage rise. And they won't sell that many 1Ds 4s....
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being \
Post by: Gothmoth on September 08, 2011, 10:12:24 AM
Quote
combined share of the Japanese market has fallen by 35 percent, while

im not up to date when it comes to the japanese market....what shares? cameras overall or DSLR only?

my uncle has used canon cameras since the 80s.
he changed his 50E in 2006 for a canon rebel.

last week i saw him and as we talked he told me he has sold all is camera gear on ebay.
he now takes all his pictures with his iphone.  ::)

no new DSLR or mirroless camera would have changed that decision for him.

he thinks the iphone is god enough for the snapshots he takes and most imporant he has it always with him.
 
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: robert55 on September 08, 2011, 12:06:04 PM
I think it will happen, but there quite a lot of concepts that can be hidden under the mirrorless umbrella. The interesting question is whether Canon will go the route Sony takes [make the camera as small as possible, but keep the sensor at APS-C size] or the route Nikon according to rumors will take [find a new niche for a sensor even smaller than m43].
I see advantages for mirrorless [if it has a EVF], but I'd hope for a a concept that keeps EF lenses completely useable. If you don't want to go MF legacy lenses, apart from kit lenses m43 and NEX have little to fofer at the moment. It takes time to bulid a lens line-up
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: gkreis on September 08, 2011, 01:18:05 PM
Sony's NEX 5N has me looking intently at it for a travel camera and one that I can keep with me handily and not sacrifice IQ too much. In fact, I bet it is better IQ than my aging 40D. I don't like the idea of another set of proprietary lenses, but Canon is non-existent in this space.

IMHO Canon is really MISSING this trend.  They are leaning on their powershots and the dSLRs.  People want the speed of a dSLR and IQ, but the size closer to powershot. Sony has hit the sweet spot, I think. I think the MFT format is going to die out unless they can get their sensors to keep up....   How did Sony squeeze an APS-C sensor in such a small body?  I guess by dropping in body stabilization which I admit is disappointing as it can greatly reduce the price of the extra set of lenses.
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being \
Post by: Caps18 on September 08, 2011, 01:40:48 PM
last week i saw him and as we talked he told me he has sold all is camera gear on ebay.
he now takes all his pictures with his iphone.  ::)

no new DSLR or mirroless camera would have changed that decision for him.

he thinks the iphone is god enough for the snapshots he takes and most imporant he has it always with him.

I am going to get this next iPhone, and that is my plan for basic pictures.  I will have my 5DM2 when it really matters.  But I haven't been able to take it some places where it would have been nice to have a camera.

I'm not sure if a mirrorless Canon that could use EF lenses would appeal to me.  It might have prior to getting the 5D, but I don't see any benefit if I have the iPhone and 5D to get all of the pictures I would like to get.
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: chrisnemes on September 08, 2011, 02:29:17 PM
Good. Let mirrorless cameras catch on and enthusiasts buy them.

Then we will have a clear distinction between amateur cameras and those designed for serious photographers.

People want the speed of an SLR but the size closer to powershot?
Mirrorless rely on sluggish contrast detection for focusing. Yes, just like your average point-and-shot camera.
I think an important distinction has been omitted when naming these cameras mirrorless DSLRs, mainly the fact that you not only lose the mirror, you also lose the fast focus. I'm not sure buyers are very aware of that. What do you think?
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: Pag on September 08, 2011, 02:41:34 PM
I think an important distinction has been omitted when naming these cameras mirrorless DSLRs, mainly the fact that you not only lose the mirror, you also lose the fast focus. I'm not sure buyers are very aware of that. What do you think?

I bought an Olympus Pen E-P3 a few weeks ago because I wanted something smaller and lighter than my 50D to carry around. Its focusing about just as fast at the 50D -- I was surprised at how good it was, honestly.
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: keithfullermusic on September 08, 2011, 02:42:22 PM
I'm not really sure what mirrorless means, can someone please explain it to me.  Thanks.
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: chrisnemes on September 08, 2011, 02:51:58 PM
I bought an Olympus Pen E-P3 a few weeks ago because I wanted something smaller and lighter than my 50D to carry around. Its focusing about just as fast at the 50D -- I was surprised at how good it was, honestly.

Yeah, heard about the Olympus magic contrast detection. Cool stuff. I guess it works for travelling around.

This will be an interesting segment: people who are willing to spend an important amount of cash on interchangeable lens, but save on the body. Hmm.
I think there may be just us photographers tired of carrying around monsters just to shoot some photos at our friend's birthday party. :)
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: CanineCandidsByL on September 08, 2011, 02:57:11 PM
A mirrorless camera is exactly that...its missing the main mirror. My appologies if the following is too basic.

What makes an SLR an SLR is that the eyepiece you look through is sharing with the capturing media, be it film or sensor.  There are actually two ways to do this, one would be to divide the light with a prism, but that not very effective and reduces the light you see and the light the sensor sees. The second option is to use a mirror. When its in a down state, the light coming through the lens get reflected up to the view finder. When you press the shutter button, the mirror flips up and the light get sent towards the film/sensor. (I'll ignore the shutter curtain...if you don't understand that you'll need to look/ask seperately).

On mirrorless cameras, the light always hits a sensor. Then you look at a monitor. As someone said on another post, if you are using your live-view option on the camera, you are effectively using a mirrorless camera. Mirrorless cameras could also offer a conventional looking viewfinder, but you would actually be looking at a tiny LCD.

Hope it helps.

There isn't anything inheriently better/worse about a mirrored/mirrrorless design, however most screens can't currently show you the detail that looking through the lens can. There is also a slight delay in the sensor reading the image and the screen showing it. Its nearly imperceptible, but its there. There are several advantages. Mirrorless is mechanicly more simple and it doens't introduce some vibrations. You would think that the displays would add cost, but the simplicity of not implementing the mirror and its optics can be a cost saver. Time will tell.
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: keithfullermusic on September 08, 2011, 03:29:58 PM
A mirrorless camera is exactly that...its missing the main mirror. My appologies if the following is too basic.

What makes an SLR an SLR is that the eyepiece you look through is sharing with the capturing media, be it film or sensor.  There are actually two ways to do this, one would be to divide the light with a prism, but that not very effective and reduces the light you see and the light the sensor sees. The second option is to use a mirror. When its in a down state, the light coming through the lens get reflected up to the view finder. When you press the shutter button, the mirror flips up and the light get sent towards the film/sensor. (I'll ignore the shutter curtain...if you don't understand that you'll need to look/ask seperately).

On mirrorless cameras, the light always hits a sensor. Then you look at a monitor. As someone said on another post, if you are using your live-view option on the camera, you are effectively using a mirrorless camera. Mirrorless cameras could also offer a conventional looking viewfinder, but you would actually be looking at a tiny LCD.

Hope it helps.

There isn't anything inheriently better/worse about a mirrored/mirrrorless design, however most screens can't currently show you the detail that looking through the lens can. There is also a slight delay in the sensor reading the image and the screen showing it. Its nearly imperceptible, but its there. There are several advantages. Mirrorless is mechanicly more simple and it doens't introduce some vibrations. You would think that the displays would add cost, but the simplicity of not implementing the mirror and its optics can be a cost saver. Time will tell.

Thanks.  thats actually what i thought it meant, but i figured it had to be more since so many companies are trying to make mirrorless cameras.  I'm not sure what the benefit(s) is(are)?  Less camera shake when you fire the shot? Smaller?

Right now i have a 50D, and even when taking macros with the 100mm (non L) I don't have any problems.  If i'm really picky I go to live view on a tripod with a 2 second delay and a remote trigger!!!

I hope that doesn't mean we will have to look at everything through the LCD screen - I like my viewfinder!
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being \
Post by: dstppy on September 08, 2011, 03:52:49 PM
I am going to get this next iPhone, and that is my plan for basic pictures.  I will have my 5DM2 when it really matters.  But I haven't been able to take it some places where it would have been nice to have a camera.

I'm not sure if a mirrorless Canon that could use EF lenses would appeal to me.  It might have prior to getting the 5D, but I don't see any benefit if I have the iPhone and 5D to get all of the pictures I would like to get.

Where were you barred from bringing the camera?  Performances were the only place I saw checking and my S95 wasn't hard to bring in.  Big white lenses were at the yankees game I went to, which surprised me.

Just curious.
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: neuroanatomist on September 08, 2011, 04:05:44 PM
I hope that doesn't mean we will have to look at everything through the LCD screen - I like my viewfinder!

For a mirrorless camera to have a viewfinder, it would either need to be an electronic viewfinder (small LCD inside a viewfinder-like housing), or a separate optical path (like the old twin lens reflex cameras that preceded SLRs, or the current P&S cameras with optical viewfinders.  The latter have issues with parallax, and are problematic on interchangeable lens systems.
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: te4o on September 08, 2011, 04:34:56 PM
I can guess the moment someone makes an adapter from Sony Nex / Olympus Pen to EF with at least aperture control if not AF as well he will get rich... At least judging by the current market status. But markets often change who knows what Canon will come up with? But from the current Nex 5n discussions and samples, if true, I find IQ better than my 40D and probably 50, 60... Correct me please.
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: macfly on September 08, 2011, 04:51:11 PM
Canon had better wake up and move on this. I've been saying for months the iPhone 5 and new Androids with 8MP cameras are going to wipe out the P&S market, which means the real battle ground for market share will be in the EVIL systems. So far Sony looks to have redefinded the segment with the NEX-7, I honestly I think it could be a game changer, and make many SLRs obsolete.
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: c.d.embrey on September 09, 2011, 01:26:17 AM
I've bought a NEX 5n, and the focus is fast enough for me. If you shoot sports YMMV, but why would anyone use a NEX 5n with a Sony 300 f2.8. BTW Sony has a new A-mount to E-mount adapter that has all the bells-and-whistle so that an A lens works as well on a NEX as it does on a Sony DSLR.

[bI] bought it for the video - 60i, 60p and 24p. It's small and light. It will make a great POV/crash cam, I'll use it like an APS-C GoPro.[/b]

The NEX 5n has an accessory EVF (2,359K), that is the same as the NEX 7.
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: hendrik-sg on September 09, 2011, 04:08:20 AM
I have a 50d and got a Nex 7 in my hands some time ago. Yes the nex 7 is small and light as a PS but only with the smallest lenses. With a 18-55 it is already much bigger and with a 18-200 there is no advantage in size compared to a DSLR. For me (this is subjectiv) there is no advantage over a DSLR. If i need a small camera for my jeans pocket i would by a S95 which is impressiv in terms of image quality and low light ability at least for static subjects.

As long as everybody whines about dynamic range and low light ability the translucent mirrors from Sony dont sound very fascinating for me, because they loose light by default. This sounds like a improveemnt for the shareholders that they can sell cams without moving parts for the price of DSLRs. If the Sony 24MP APSC Cams can match the Canon and Nikon DSLRs in concerns of low light and dynamic range this would be a sign how far away from "state of the art" the canon and nikon sensors are. In this case we dont need a mirrorless system but a catch up in Sensor technology.

For the FF Cams it looks like if the big 3 (Canon, Nikon, Sony) have an arrangement to hold still, maybe a national alliance to recover from the earthquake. This is just speculation. In APSC Market there are to many players and the consumers want a new cam and more MP every year. For them this is more importand than real improvement which is more difficult to sell. As illustration, how many of the consumers check the sensor results on DSO before he buys a cam? Such improvement (for example 20d -> 5dii which have the same pixel size) is more difficult to sell.

For FF users there is hope, as soon as the APSCs have closed the gap to FF, then they could sell the old FF stuff only to very few "fanboys" or customers who really need shallower DOF. I dont know the effectiv froduction costs of FF cams, but i dont believe that they cost so much more (1500$) and i dont think they want to loose the money of these customers. Then at latest we will see progress in this area.

P.S please excuse my bad english
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: moreorless on September 09, 2011, 06:08:47 AM
I have a 50d and got a Nex 7 in my hands some time ago. Yes the nex 7 is small and light as a PS but only with the smallest lenses. With a 18-55 it is already much bigger and with a 18-200 there is no advantage in size compared to a DSLR. For me (this is subjectiv) there is no advantage over a DSLR. If i need a small camera for my jeans pocket i would by a S95 which is impressiv in terms of image quality and low light ability at least for static subjects.

This to me seems like the major reason mirrorless hasnt had the dramatic impact many thought it would a few years ago, either you go with a smaller sensor and lose image quality or your left with massively outsized lenses like the NEX.

The real markets to me seem to be compact users wanting a bit of a step up in quality while retaining a pocketable camera and high end users wanting to cut down on the more extreme weight. Alot of the interest around the M9 seems to be based on size rather than users actually looking for manual focus and no zooms.  A Canon FF body the size of an xxxD with EF-S size lenses and a Fuji style hybrid viewfinder seems like it could be very sucessful to me.
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: Sunnystate on September 09, 2011, 08:10:06 AM
Canon had better wake up and move on this. I've been saying for months the iPhone 5 and new Androids with 8MP cameras are going to wipe out the P&S market, which means the real battle ground for market share will be in the EVIL systems. So far Sony looks to have redefinded the segment with the NEX-7, I honestly I think it could be a game changer, and make many SLRs obsolete.

Agreed!

It is hard to blame Canon or Nikon for playing the waiting game, profits are just incredible and it will probably never happen again that an average aspiring amateur will pay voluntarily 3X the price of most advanced professional body just 10 years a go! (look at the culture right here on CR, to have the best and newest! Lets just hope no kids go hungry, or are loosing college funds because of this super expensive hobby of ours).

Adding that both Canon and Nikon have all the necessary base, expertise with lenses and all sort of body designs from the times of film point and shoot era, there are no doubts that waiting is intentional, and may be proven rather short sighted.
I love pro equipment to, and have spent my share for stuff, like brand new Hasselblad, two Toyo cameras,   twinlens Rolleiflex etc. that have been barely used and now collecting dust.
There are some changes needed, Sony is smart enough, and have nothing to loose to take advantage of this, let's hope Canon did not adopt the new prevalent business philosophy of making as much, as fast money for as long as possible, without thinking of future...
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: moreorless on September 09, 2011, 10:26:20 AM
Nikon's system might not look the most exciting with the smaller sensor but I'm thinking it could proove to me well choosen. Large enough to potentially give noticeble benefits over bridge cameras but small enough to keep the lens size down to something pocketable.

If Canon put out something with a full crop sensor then personally I think they'd be better off focusing on a range of prime lenses.
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: macfly on September 09, 2011, 12:14:58 PM
I'd be more inclined to want perfect primes than a zoom, a high end Canon M9 competitor would be my first choice. Obviously I use the EOS system for work, but I've ordered a NEX-7 with a pancake lens as a replacement for the G12 which I hated so much I gave to a friends kid the other week. Felt kind of bad giving him such a terrible camera, but I figured he won't know the difference as it'll be his first proper camera.
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: DuLt on September 09, 2011, 01:05:39 PM
What would be the implications of canon entering a mirrorless market with whole new lenses? Pretty much like when EF was introduced.
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: CanineCandidsByL on September 09, 2011, 01:32:42 PM
What would be the implications of canon entering a mirrorless market with whole new lenses? Pretty much like when EF was introduced.

That would all depend how the camera is released. If this is a new generation of cameras that are between SLR & current point&shoots, then new lens would be great. I'd hope we see features similar to some other manufactures where the lens and body protect themselves by effectively have built in covers when lens are detached. If this could be implemented on current SLRs without breaking current lenses, I'd pay at least a $100 premium for such lenses. But for consumers who don't understand dirty sensor and likely to reach in and clean with their finger, its almost mandatory.

On the other hand, if such cameras were meant to replace existing SLRs, then changing lenses presents an "oportunity" for customers to abandon Canon for other vendors, which isn't desirable. For better or worse, compatibility of lenses within a vendor ocks us into that vendor or vendor family (3rd party lenses).
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: archfotos on September 09, 2011, 01:35:48 PM
Let's just hope that when Canon does bring forth a small portable mirror-less camera they see where these (Oly, Pansic, Sony) fail.  Reading many threads it's obvious that this style of mirror-less camera is for the advanced user that wants the ultimate Henri Cartier Bresson camera/1080 60p recorder. So toss out all that auto jpg crap that bloats the menus, the RAW vs Jpg debate has been dead for some time.

None of these cameras to date were made for the truly active (weather resident, shock proof) lifestyle where they are going to be used, mounting them in harms way, bashing around in the back of a Toyota with twenty other smelly souls, using them in a waterproof housing.  How about connecting them to a pocket wizard for reliable remote firing?  How about making the Time-lapse photographer's dream with an electronic shutter system and ultra quite use. Can any of these cameras even accept shutter release remotes?   

Again I just hope when Canon does bring out their Mirror-less large chipped camera they bring one out with the old philosophy of the rugged built 1 series tough body  in a super compact size that is made for all the "different" applications the advance user can throw at it not just a bunch of cheesy pre-programed jpg styles that can only survive walking around the mall.
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: CanineCandidsByL on September 09, 2011, 02:25:58 PM
RAW vs Jpg debate has been dead for some time.

Sorry, I hate doing this...

The debate should be dead, but the answer is "depends". There are people who need max fps & most continous high speed frames, for them jpg is the answer. Where this isn't the case, RAW quality is usually preferable.

I have had cases where I found my laptop dead (couldn't offload) or didn't have much space left and didn't have time to offload. I had to switch to jpg.

And, there are some good work scenerios where JPG can present a quick high-quality preview with some basic touchup for use on preview displays. But ultimately you want to work with RAW in final.

In the mis-spoken works of kodacrome users,
"Please don't take my jpg away"


Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: c.d.embrey on September 09, 2011, 04:18:58 PM
Yes the nex 7 is small and light as a PS but only with the smallest lenses. With a 18-55 it is already much bigger and with a 18-200 there is no advantage in size compared to a DSLR

Have you ever seen a Leica with a 18-200??? Cameras like the Leica and NEX 7 work best with short primes.
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: EYEONE on September 09, 2011, 04:34:08 PM
Canon had better wake up and move on this. I've been saying for months the iPhone 5 and new Androids with 8MP cameras are going to wipe out the P&S market, which means the real battle ground for market share will be in the EVIL systems. So far Sony looks to have redefinded the segment with the NEX-7, I honestly I think it could be a game changer, and make many SLRs obsolete.

I have a Android with a 8mp sensor that takes the worst pictures possible. Just sayin'
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: boh on September 09, 2011, 05:57:03 PM
There are some great similarities between how Microsoft did not understand the tablet (iPad) and refused to get into the game (now they are rushing into it with 'Windows 8') and the waiting game that Canon seems to have adopted. It’s a different tool for different needs and also for different market segments. I have a Canon 5D II, which I love and is great for many things, but I just bought a Pen E-P3, which is a very different camera but actually superior in some ways. I want to use it for some travel and mostly for street photography. It is very quick and a lot less intrusive than a full blown SLR. People react differently to it and you can get shots which would have been hard with my Canon.  I bought it with the standard 14-42mm lens (x2 for you FF people), which is surprisingly sharp, but the line-up I am aiming at includes the Olympus 12/2, Leica-Pan 25/1.4, and Olympus 45/1.8. There are all serious lenses that can produce some awesome results. I can carry this in my jacked all day without even thinking about it.

Does it resolve as much as a FF? No, of course not! But getting the photo and the story that photo is meant to tell should always be more important than the alignment and absolute number of pixels that went into producing it.  The quality is ‘good enough’ for me and I am used to what my 5D and L lenses can produce.  But more than anything the format opens up new possibilities with similar control possibilities. I will have both systems.

The fact that the E-P3 looks stunning and is so well made just adds to the great feeling of picking it up. You can put that down on any café table in Rome and look the part of the scenery, which any street photographer will tell you is the most important!

My 2 c’s!
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: Lawliet on September 09, 2011, 08:03:04 PM
What would be the implications of canon entering a mirrorless market with whole new lenses? Pretty much like when EF was introduced.

The main payoff of that gambit was a completely flexible interface. With the some wiring and firmware an EOS could literally read from a digital thermometer or tap into the device bus of my car and send music from its memory card to the stereo or control the windows.

The Nikon EVIL seems to get on sensor PDAF for the rough adjustment, so either Canon should be either able to implement fast CDAF or just follow suit.

A new lens line similar to EF-s, with an adapter that offers full functionality for current lenses? Why not? Same deal, buy mostly EF and the lenses that offer distinct advantages for the new mount. No bad blood, no lost customers. Once EVIL matures into the high end lines you have everything ready for action, no mandatory big investments or uncertainties.

OTOH dropping the ball the way Sony and Olympus did wouldn't sit to well.
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: Mark D5 TEAM II on September 10, 2011, 02:34:55 AM
Quote
I have a 50d and got a Nex 7 in my hands some time ago. Yes the nex 7 is small and light as a PS but only with the smallest lenses. With a 18-55 it is already much bigger and with a 18-200 there is no advantage in size compared to a DSLR. For me (this is subjectiv) there is no advantage over a DSLR. If i need a small camera for my jeans pocket i would by a S95 which is impressiv in terms of image quality and low light ability at least for static subjects.


I also don't get this gadget collector fad, must be a symptom of having too much disposable income. EVIL cameras are only compact with pancake primes, it's unergonomic and unwieldy once attached to more useful lenses. There's an easy shortcut for Canon if they really want to get into this niche market, just buy Oly or any of the other smaller camera makers. And oh, iFruitcakes & most Android camphones sUx0rs at image quality. Best camphone IQ I've seen is still from the Nokia N82, Samsung i8510 Innov8 and the Nokia N8 (which has a 1/1.7" sensor, bigger than most P&S cameras).
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: macfly on September 10, 2011, 03:17:00 AM
Quote
I also don't get this gadget collector fad

It's simple really, when you love your craft you're excited to try out all the new tools that may change what you can do, and give you something better or different to the other tools you have. I assisted for 8 years before becoming a photograper myself over 25 years ago, and every photographer I know is fascinated by the tools of our trade. If you aren't that interested then you aren't that serious, which begs the question, why are here on a rumor site?
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: Lawliet on September 10, 2011, 03:41:24 AM
Thats more a definition of gearhead wit a job in the relevant area.
I'm more interested in solutions to challenges related to the picture I want to take. ;)
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: moreorless on September 10, 2011, 04:09:21 AM
I'd be more inclined to want perfect primes than a zoom, a high end Canon M9 competitor would be my first choice. Obviously I use the EOS system for work, but I've ordered a NEX-7 with a pancake lens as a replacement for the G12 which I hated so much I gave to a friends kid the other week. Felt kind of bad giving him such a terrible camera, but I figured he won't know the difference as it'll be his first proper camera.

With a M9 competator I wouldnt say the need for an "all prime" system is as great personally, the camera might be a bit more unbalanced with zooms but more serious photographers will be more used to that. With something like the NEX though your dealing with a more unbalanced system and comsumers less likely ro accept it, plus of course the difference between pocketable and not.

Thats I'd guess part of what is holding Canon and Nikon back, they want to let others test the waters and see whether amature comsumers are willing to unaccept either an unbalanced system or one based around primes.
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: Flake on September 10, 2011, 09:12:41 AM
I do have a wry smile when I read about 'perfect' primes, and I wonder which lenses are considered to be 'perfect'?

I also wonder how it is that the guys & girls at <agnum manage to keep at the top of their game without these 'perfect' lenses.  Lets face it, photography is not about gear and gear does not make a top photographer. 

The NEX 7 choice says more about this particular poster and his understanding of photography than anything else.  The 24MP APSc sensor begins diffraction at just f/5.6 and because of the high MP count there are DoF issues.

The G12 is a great little camera, used by Photo Professionals the world over, the statement that it's a terrible camera adain shows you have more money than sense, and certainly not the first clue about photography.  When you're done with the NEX please let me know because I'm sure I could produce some decent images with it!    (there are some photographers who can produce stunning images with a pinhole!)
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: DuLt on September 10, 2011, 09:29:03 AM
What would be the implications of canon entering a mirrorless market with whole new lenses? Pretty much like when EF was introduced.

The main payoff of that gambit was a completely flexible interface. With the some wiring and firmware an EOS could literally read from a digital thermometer or tap into the device bus of my car and send music from its memory card to the stereo or control the windows.

The Nikon EVIL seems to get on sensor PDAF for the rough adjustment, so either Canon should be either able to implement fast CDAF or just follow suit.

A new lens line similar to EF-s, with an adapter that offers full functionality for current lenses? Why not? Same deal, buy mostly EF and the lenses that offer distinct advantages for the new mount. No bad blood, no lost customers. Once EVIL matures into the high end lines you have everything ready for action, no mandatory big investments or uncertainties.

OTOH dropping the ball the way Sony and Olympus did wouldn't sit to well.

That would mean no compromise, even if the cameras had a slower AF, the adaptor itself could contain a mirror and a very good phase detection system.
It would be a win-win.
Canon would have a new system for the future, the old one would still work, and it would porbably accept FF and APS-c
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: macfly on September 10, 2011, 10:34:19 AM
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and certainly not the first clue about photography.

Flake, kindly take a moment to review my website, I just redesigned it for easier viewing. Please do share with me a link to yours, thanks.
www.macfly.com
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: macfly on September 10, 2011, 10:45:24 AM
PS: Perfect primes for a small FF camera have been very well executed in the past, as with the Leica/Minolta CLE and more recenty the lovely Contax G series cameras, both systems I've owned and used for many published stories. Today for an all puprose FF EVIL I'd take 24 - 35 - 50 and maybe an 85.

The Contax T2 was a magic camera with a razor sharp 38mm, and for years was my take everywhere camera, and I also used it for many published stories, something I'd never do with the G12. I thought me the perfect prime is 35mm, something most at Magnum with agree with I think.
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: WarStreet on September 10, 2011, 11:30:18 AM
When Nikonrumors showed long time ago the possibly 2.6 crop factor mirrorless camera, I felt that it is not going be very successful.

Since it is physically impossible to cover a large sensor with a small lens and that the size of these two have to be related with each other, the following two options should cover the majority of people :

(a) compact cameras which can be carried easily, preferable fit in pockets, without the pain of carrying and changing lenses or flash. Due to the small sensor/lens, these will be a cheaper, smaller and a complete solution, but suffer image quality for which most users won't care much for their intended use. 

(b) quality achieved by bigger sensors/lenses even if this means carrying and changing big heavy expensive lenses, together with a ton of other stuff.

Something in between such as the 2.6 crop factor mirrorless, will be significantly lower in quality from a traditional dslr and won't be small enough to be considered as a compact camera together with the pain of changing and carrying lenses.  You just get the disadvantages of (a) and (b).

What I reasoned is that, who wants quality, just wants that without compromise and is ready to make sacrifices for it, and who wants a compact camera will just go for a small camera rather a bigger camera with better quality with the interchangeable lens pain.   

There will always be a minority which will have a particular use with such a camera, but will they be enough to turn it into a successful camera ?

Also, I don't see any advantages with cameras such as the NEX, I would prefer to have a better balanced body, if the lenses are still going to be big. On the other hand the nex will be great with the small primes, but again, such needs will be from a minority of users.   

 

 



Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: elflord on September 10, 2011, 12:18:05 PM
. EVIL cameras are only compact with pancake primes, it's unergonomic and unwieldy once attached to more useful lenses.
Which more useful lenses do you have in mind ? Here's a table of lens weights for m43 lenses: http://www.neocamera.com/list_lenses.php?mount=m43

The smallest m43 body is the GF3 weighing in at about 250g including battery.

Besides the superzooms, long tele zooms and the UWA 7-14mm, all of these lenses are lighter than the smallest m43 body available. The crop of prime lenses are well under the weight of the camera: besides the pancakes (Pana 14mm,Oly 17mm,Pana 20mm)  you have the 45mm f1.8 at 100g, the 12mm f2 at 130g, and the macro and the 25mm f/1.4 around the 200g mark.  Panasonics new kit zoom, the 14-42mm X lens is under 100g. As a point of comparison , the 24-70mm lens is heavier than the 5D mark II.

While an EVIL camera is not really "compact" with the non pancake primes, it's still a much smaller package than an SLR, and it's hardly unusable and while usefulness does depend on the application, the wide angle to normal telephoto is the range used for general purpose lenses, and probably also the best fit for the obvious applications of this type of camera.

Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: dafrank on September 10, 2011, 01:22:58 PM
I agree with most of what you say. However, on a couple of points, I don't. The first is that Microsoft didn't "get" what Apple was doing with their tablet. Microsoft is almost exclusively a software company. Apple is certainly, first and foremost, a hardware company and has done badly only when it briefly ventured into the software-only business model. I am not sure about what Windows 8 is supposed to bring to tablets, and I'm sure that they have some catching up to do with Apple's iOS in that regard, but Windows 8 will primarily be a desktop-notebook OS in any case. What the tablet version of it will bring will probably be little different from what Apple has brought to the table. In any case, Apple has done a wonderful job of marketing the iPad, as so many millions of affluent people who love gadgets and have money to burn have been competing with each other to see which one can conform faster in buying the iPad to surf the net sitting on a couch three feet away from their home computers, and showing pictures of their grandchildren to each other at Starbucks, all the while explaining to each other that their latest acquisition is nearly indispensible. Brilliant marketing! But it is the original hardware form factor, not the software, that has powered their marketing department and has given them a crucial headstart on Microsoft-allied hardware makers. In fact, if I remember correctly, Microsoft had long ago researched, developed, and demonstrated gesture-based OS's, but had to look to others for hardware in which to carry it, and they, in turn, failed to imagine the tablet as it is now.

As to the "mirrorless" cameras, their desirability and Canon's seeming lack of a decision to make any, I am really not in a position to judge, as I know nothing of Canon's real R&D and plans. Of course, neither does anyone else who will tell us about it. If they do make such cameras, they might do well to take a slightly different road to achieve the same end, as they, of course, will be later to market with whatever they can conjure.

Personally, for professional work, I am pretty happy with my DSLR's, but would be open to anything which could be better at form, function and image quality. As for snapshots, wandering around looking for interesting images, vacations and playing at 1930's "street photography," the current 4/3 format cameras with pancake and small prime lenses certainly are worth a shot. I am also looking at the new Fuji X10 which looks like it may be an even better tool for the same functions, but we'll have to see how it really performs. Either would be better than dragging around my 1DsIII and lenses, but, when a job is on the line, the mirrorless cameras are not anywhere capable enough at this time. I just have to stay strong and hire energetic assistants.
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: Haydn1971 on September 10, 2011, 01:56:38 PM
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and certainly not the first clue about photography.

Flake, kindly take a moment to review my website, I just redesigned it for easier viewing. Please do share with me a link to yours, thanks.
www.macfly.com

If only there was a Facebook style "like" button ;-)
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: boh on September 10, 2011, 05:22:39 PM
I agree with most of what you say. However, on a couple of points, I don't. The first is that Microsoft didn't "get" what Apple was doing with their tablet. Microsoft is almost exclusively a software company. Apple is certainly, first and foremost, a hardware company and has done badly only when it briefly ventured into the software-only business model. I am not sure about what Windows 8 is supposed to bring to tablets,

Just to expand on my my earlier comment; Microsoft didn't understand that the tablet was a threat to the traditional PC/laptop market and was eating into their profits. Apple showed them differently. Problem was that Windows 7 was not made for tablets, i.e. "fat fingers". Windows 8 is. It will switch between the different input modes seamlessly and support and app driven device, such as a tablet, in a way that W7 never could. It was a new market segment and Microsoft fail to recognize that.  Cheers.
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: c.d.embrey on September 11, 2011, 01:28:15 AM

There will always be a minority which will have a particular use with such a camera, but will they be enough to turn it into a successful camera ?

Also, I don't see any advantages with cameras such as the NEX, I would prefer to have a better balanced body, if the lenses are still going to be big. On the other hand the nex will be great with the small primes, but again, such needs will be from a minority of users.   

The NEX 5n Black is number nine (9) on Amazon's Top 100 DSLR sales list. The NEX 7 is number thirteen (13). and the NEX 5n Silver is number twenty (20). All three with 18-55 lens.  http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Camera-Photo-Digital-SLR-Cameras/zgbs/photo/3017941 

Alter getting my NEX 5n, I have little interest in using my Canon DSLRs. I've ordered an E-mount to Nikon F mount adapter and will be doing my next table top product shots with a 5n and a Nikon 85mm PC-E tilt and shift lens. BTW I've been using a Canon 1DSII with a 90mm TS-E lens in the past for product work.
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: WarStreet on September 11, 2011, 07:18:48 AM
The NEX 5n Black is number nine (9) on Amazon's Top 100 DSLR sales list. The NEX 7 is number thirteen (13). and the NEX 5n Silver is number twenty (20). All three with 18-55 lens.  http://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Camera-Photo-Digital-SLR-Cameras/zgbs/photo/3017941 

I think you have mixed the comments of the Nikon 2.6 crop factor with that of the NEX. The minority of users regarding the NEX, was referred for those users who will buy the NEX to be used with small primes only.

The NEX is a great camera from a technology point of view, and it fits in the (b) category together with the large sensor SLR's. My comment about the NEX was just about the compact advantage. I don't believe it gives any significant advantage from a size point of view when used even with the kit lens. The advantage is there only with the small primes. But you mentioned another advantage of the NEX which I left out. The ability to use this camera with any lens.

Regarding the sales list in Amazon, since this is an APS-C sensor, there is no reason why it should not perform well compared to the other APS-C cameras.

Currently top placed NEX is the the NEX-5N black 18-55 @ position 11 with just 19 days in top 100, but at position 12 there is the 2009 500D 18-55 with 887 days in top 100. I can't see the older 2010 NEX-3 and NEX-5 in the top 100. The new NEX are still pre-order. When they get in stock, they should increase in sales, and than we have to wait and see if they will be able to stay in top positions for more than a year.
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: Sunnystate on September 11, 2011, 08:16:33 AM
May be this is like apples and oranges, but why reading this thread makes me feel like, I have deja vu?
Netbook or i-Pad anyone? Just some fat cat CEO from Canon is missing trying to publicly ridicule the mirrorless idea...
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: elflord on September 11, 2011, 09:29:45 AM
I don't believe it gives any significant advantage from a size point of view when used even with the kit lens. The advantage is there only with the small primes.
That's specifically the NEX largely because it doesn't have a very mature native lens selection. It's not true for mirrorless in general.

The new panasonic 14-42 X lens is under 100g. Put that on a GF3 and the package including the lens is lighter than a Canon G12 or about half the weight of a canon rebel with a  small prime attached.
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: moreorless on September 11, 2011, 10:06:08 AM
That's specifically the NEX largely because it doesn't have a very mature native lens selection. It's not true for mirrorless in general.

The new panasonic 14-42 X lens is under 100g. Put that on a GF3 and the package including the lens is lighter than a Canon G12 or about half the weight of a canon rebel with a  small prime attached.

The lens selection being small is a different issue to the lens size being far too large compaired to the body, I doubt we'll see a zoom much smaller than the 18-55 kit.

Personally I still feel the real answer to catering for the market of compact users wanting better image quality is pushing sensor size a bit further on bridge cameras. Most users are not IMHO going to be bothered about using speicalist lenses, they just want a decent normal zoom and I think theres a fair bit of zoom for someone like the S95 to have a larger sensor/lens while still being pocketable.
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: elflord on September 11, 2011, 10:20:18 AM
That's specifically the NEX largely because it doesn't have a very mature native lens selection. It's not true for mirrorless in general.

The new panasonic 14-42 X lens is under 100g. Put that on a GF3 and the package including the lens is lighter than a Canon G12 or about half the weight of a canon rebel with a  small prime attached.

The lens selection being small is a different issue to the lens size being far too large compaired to the body, I doubt we'll see a zoom much smaller than the 18-55 kit.

There already is a kit lens for a large sensor mirrorless system camera that is much smaller than the Sony kit lens (that would be about 1/3 the weight of the Sony 18-55).

The lens is the 14-42 panasonic X lens. It is compatible with micro 4/3 cameras.  At 100g, it weighs in at less than half the weight of the body.
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: neuroanatomist on September 11, 2011, 10:27:52 AM
I think theres a fair bit of zoom for someone like the S95 to have a larger sensor/lens while still being pocketable.

I think so, too - and I hope this happens sooner rahter than later.  Competition from the cell phone market is getting stronger.  A year ago, Nokia released the N8 with a 12 MP sensor that has a crop factor of ~5x (and a 28mm f/2.8 Zeiss lens).  That 5x crop factor is not much more than the 4.6x crop factor of the S95/G12. 
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: WarStreet on September 11, 2011, 11:51:00 AM
That's specifically the NEX largely because it doesn't have a very mature native lens selection. It's not true for mirrorless in general.

The new panasonic 14-42 X lens is under 100g. Put that on a GF3 and the package including the lens is lighter than a Canon G12 or about half the weight of a canon rebel with a  small prime attached.

This is the most interesting large sensor compact solution I have seen so far. I think that this is the only lens available with this characteristics. There is a big difference compared to their other 14-42 non retractable lens.

It is true, that the NEX will eventually get some lens of this type, even although could never be as small due to the bigger sensor, but will sure make the NEX a more interesting camera for those who want a standard zoom.

The GF3 14-42 x combo compared with the G12 from size and weight point of view is impressive.

Competition from the cell phone market is getting stronger.  A year ago, Nokia released the N8 with a 12 MP sensor that has a crop factor of ~5x (and a 28mm f/2.8 Zeiss lens).  That 5x crop factor is not much more than the 4.6x crop factor of the S95/G12. 

Looking at the GF3 14-42 x combo mentioned by elflord for sure there is potential to make a bigger sensor compact camera with the same camera size. The compact camera should also have a size advantage with a fixed lens system compared with the GF3 interchangeable lens one.   

Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: WarStreet on September 11, 2011, 12:04:20 PM
May be this is like apples and oranges, but why reading this thread makes me feel like, I have deja vu?
Netbook or i-Pad anyone? Just some fat cat CEO from Canon is missing trying to publicly ridicule the mirrorless idea...

This is a much more intelligent subject. Netbook and Ipad do different stuff for different needs, both are good. Here we are talking if a mirrorless can achieve it's size/quality objective which could be aimed for a good number of users. We are not talking about mirrorless being better or not to traditional SLR.   
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: Sunnystate on September 11, 2011, 12:55:47 PM
May be this is like apples and oranges, but why reading this thread makes me feel like, I have deja vu?
Netbook or i-Pad anyone? Just some fat cat CEO from Canon is missing trying to publicly ridicule the mirrorless idea...

This is a much more intelligent subject. Netbook and Ipad do different stuff for different needs, both are good. Here we are talking if a mirrorless can achieve it's size/quality objective which could be aimed for a good number of users. We are not talking about mirrorless being better or not to traditional SLR.


You are right of course, and if you think bit harder you may come up with few more differences...
I was talking about analogy that should be obvious to people without prejudice in perception of facts.



Currently top placed NEX is the the NEX-5N black 18-55 @ position 11 with just 19 days in top 100, but at position 12 there is the 2009 500D 18-55 with 887 days in top 100. I can't see the older 2010 NEX-3 and NEX-5 in the top 100. The new NEX are still pre-order. When they get in stock, they should increase in sales, and than we have to wait and see if they will be able to stay in top positions for more than a year.

Same pattern here, if you have ever read news/blogs about every single revolutionary Apple product launch beginning with iPod, iPhone and ending with iPad those are the exact predictions: "the sales will last couple of weeks at best and than will dramatically fall when the niche get saturated". Finally they may get the satisfaction: iPod sales are down after a decade!

I can promise you, other members will be kind, and nobody will be rubbing your nose in it.
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: c.d.embrey on September 11, 2011, 09:17:25 PM

The lens selection being small is a different issue to the lens size being far too large compaired to the body, I doubt we'll see a zoom much smaller than the 18-55 kit.

Why would you want a zoom lens??? You don't see Leica s with zoom lenses.

Quote
Personally I still feel the real answer to catering for the market of compact users wanting better image quality is pushing sensor size a bit further on bridge cameras. Most users are not IMHO going to be bothered about using speicalist lenses, they just want a decent normal zoom and I think theres a fair bit of zoom for someone like the S95 to have a larger sensor/lens while still being pocketable.

Compact users are leaving the camera market. They will NEVER AGAIN own a Canon or Nikon camera. They are migrating to phones with cameras. Why use a camera when it can't upload your photos/videos to FaceSpace ???

The NEX 7 and the Zeiss 24mm f1.8 will be here soon, at a combined price of about $2,300.00, this camera/lens is not aimed at a step-up market 8-D
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: Hillsilly on September 12, 2011, 05:02:21 AM
I've just returned from the World Rally Championships in Coffs Harbour, Australia.  Everyone had a camera, and for a motor sports event, there was a surprising amount of camera talk and discussion.  I'd say that nearly one third of families had a DSLR and Canon was easily the most popular.  No surprises there - Canon is No. 1!!!

What do I learn from events like this?  Firstly, there is a good, general understanding of the benefits of different types of cameras.  Just like you don't bring a knife to a gun fight, most people appreciate that a phone isn't the best for fast action. Its just that a small percentage of people don't care - They're just happy being at the event and they'll rattle of a few photos to show friends and family what it was like. 

Secondly, many people that aren't into photography are still interested in why a DSLR performs better.  I lent my camera to a few people throughout the event for a couple of passes and they were surprised by the vast difference in focus speed and frame rates.  Potential future customers?  Possibly.

Therefore, will compact users ever buy Canon or Nikon?  Yes - of course they will.  As with any other purchase, they'll weigh up the pros and negatives.  But right now, if you want a camera that is more durable, performs well in low light, is better for sports, for fast focusing, then you are going with a DSLR.  The majority of people contemplating an expensive camera purchase understand this.  Are these benefits of a DSLR worth the extra cost, complexity and weight?  Everyone has their own answer.

Therefore, my opinions...

What about compacts?  In five years time, this market won't exist. Phones are already good enough.

What about mirrorless?  The future is looking bright.  As an owner of one myself (Olympus EPL-1), I can confirm that the image quality is at least on par if not better than a 30D.  I'd suspect that it is comparable with modern DSLRs too.  It is a fraction of the weight and is significantly more enjoyable to carry around.  Sure, focus is a bit slower, but not dramatically so.  Battery life is also woeful with about 300 shots / charge.  But for an everyday use camera that will produce better results that your phone, why wouldn't you choose one?

My family camera prediction?  People looking for a simple, light weight, lower cost, quality image camera will choose mirrorless.  People looking for more robust performance will stick with a DSLR.  Canon is the market leader in DSLRs, and there is no reason for this to change. 

The end result is that Canon will lose sales by not being in the mirrorless market.  But will this impact on their overall profitability given that they will retain the higher end of the market?  Only a Canon exec would know the answer.
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: Justhandguns on September 12, 2011, 10:12:28 AM

Alter getting my NEX 5n, I have little interest in using my Canon DSLRs. I've ordered an E-mount to Nikon F mount adapter and will be doing my next table top product shots with a 5n and a Nikon 85mm PC-E tilt and shift lens. BTW I've been using a Canon 1DSII with a 90mm TS-E lens in the past for product work.

I would love to see your product shots with the NEX 5n, not that I am saying it cannot take macro product shot photos. My friends used to do product shots as well, their main cameras are usually the 5Dmk2. The trouble for the NEX 5 is that, you do not have the PC lead for flashes, nor any attachments for macro ring flash. I just wonder what type of table top product shots you are taking?

I think mirror less cameras are mostly for rich boys who have money to burn. Practically speaking, if I want a compact camera, lots of people would just go for a simple P&S like the Canon S95 (or even a mobile or cell phone). For the pros, DSLR will still be there for a long while, even the Sony EVF a77 is built as an SLR, not something radical. Actually, I always think that the Sony full time EVF concept was probably borrowed from the good old film EOS 1nRS, which has a a fixed pellicle mirror.  Similar to the Sony a77, there is no viewfinder black-out at the moment of exposure, the fixed mirror allows 10 frames per second and a shutter release lag of 6ms. Just wonder why Canon is not putting this into their new 1D cameras. It would be much more practical than sticking the EVF in, wouldn't it? 

Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: Mark D5 TEAM II on September 12, 2011, 10:51:18 AM
Quote
I also don't get this gadget collector fad

It's simple really, when you love your craft you're excited to try out all the new tools that may change what you can do, and give you something better or different to the other tools you have. I assisted for 8 years before becoming a photograper myself over 25 years ago, and every photographer I know is fascinated by the tools of our trade. If you aren't that interested then you aren't that serious, which begs the question, why are here on a rumor site?

Please, sir, if you read my post again carefully you'd understand that I'm only referring to MILCs/EVIL cams, not to all gadgets equipment measurebators fantasize about. Relax. :P

To answer your question, I'm here for rumors on new products from currently existing lines, not for putative new models from as-yet imaginary product lines. BTW, shouldn't I be the one asking you that question, since I got into this forum before you?  ::)

Thats more a definition of gearhead wit a job in the relevant area.
I'm more interested in solutions to challenges related to the picture I want to take. ;)

This, too.
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: Mark D5 TEAM II on September 12, 2011, 11:05:35 AM
I really hope this fad among the gadget measurebators don't lead to more of this silliness:

(http://a.img-dpreview.com/news/1005/sony/nex3/NEX-3_26.jpg)
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: c.d.embrey on September 12, 2011, 06:09:06 PM

I would love to see your product shots with the NEX 5n, not that I am saying it cannot take macro product shot photos. My friends used to do product shots as well, their main cameras are usually the 5Dmk2. The trouble for the NEX 5 is that, you do not have the PC lead for flashes, nor any attachments for macro ring flash. I just wonder what type of table top product shots you are taking?

I've used HMI lighting for many years, a lot of product work is done using HMIs. I was shooting some video with the 5n, on Sunday, using HMIs. So far everything is looking good.

I have two ideas for triggering Profoto generators. One is inexpensive, but quick and uses a PC cable. The other is much more expensive, but will allow the use of Pocket Wizards. I'm been custom building what I need for a long time.

Quote
I think mirror less cameras are mostly for rich boys who have money to burn. Practically speaking, if I want a compact camera, lots of people would just go for a simple P&S like the Canon S95 (or even a mobile or cell phone).

I've never owned a digital P&S, but I do have (and use) a Yashica T3 (Zeiss 35mm f2.8 lens) film P&S. I use a iPod Touch G4 as my walk around camera.

I'll be using my mirrorless cameras for business.

Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: gene_can_sing on September 12, 2011, 06:33:52 PM
I think Canon is tempting fate by not releasing anything AT ALL for a long time. Then again, they only have 1 competitor.
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: moreorless on September 13, 2011, 05:16:47 PM
The end result is that Canon will lose sales by not being in the mirrorless market.  But will this impact on their overall profitability given that they will retain the higher end of the market?  Only a Canon exec would know the answer.

One thing that does stand out for me looking at somewhere like amazon's sales is that while NEX and micro 4/3rds bodies are selling well their lens sales are pretty pathetic compaired to Canon/Nikon.

I'v no idea how profit margins stand in those two areas but my feeling is that there probabley higher for lenses so perhaps this new market of "upgrading compact users" really isnt as rich as its made out to be?

I wouldnt be supprized if Nikon's shift down to a 2.6 crop is to try and bring down lens prices to a level where it creates more repeat buyer business. The common preception amoung new users does remain afterall that the body is the real investment but if you can get a user to buy say a cheaper tele zoom aswell as the kit he's more likely to buy an UWA, a macro etc.
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: riogrande100 on September 14, 2011, 01:27:06 PM
I am an owner of Canon DSLR and a G3 m43 camera. The best thing about the G3 is its size and weight and also has some nice features such as crop sensor for extra reach.

However when it comes to lenses theer really isn't much great lenses, and the few that are coming out like the Leica 25mm f/1.4 and the Olympus 12mm f/2 are really expensive lenses for their sizes.

The Leica 25mm is more expensive then all of Canon and third party 50 1.4 but yet it is far smaller. Also the 12mm Olympus again is expensive. I was always under the impression that the most expensive component of the lens is the glass, so find it hard how lenses these small cost so much!

Now as for Sony although they have realeased some amazing spec bodies their lenses are shamful. The Nex5N maybe a great camera but its size to lens ratio is rubbish. and there arn't that many lenses.

Panasonic have created some nice pancake lenses but for some night street photography s far nothing beats the 5D and a fast lens as need to shoot wide open and also at times iso 3200 and so far no mirrorless camera can match that lens and iso combo!
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: elflord on September 14, 2011, 06:31:18 PM
I am an owner of Canon DSLR and a G3 m43 camera. The best thing about the G3 is its size and weight and also has some nice features such as crop sensor for extra reach.

However when it comes to lenses theer really isn't much great lenses, and the few that are coming out like the Leica 25mm f/1.4 and the Olympus 12mm f/2 are really expensive lenses for their sizes.

The Leica 25mm is more expensive then all of Canon and third party 50 1.4 but yet it is far smaller. Also the 12mm Olympus again is expensive. I was always under the impression that the most expensive component of the lens is the glass, so find it hard how lenses these small cost so much!

It's not just the amount of glass. For example, cheap wide angle lenses are fairly pricy. To put it another way, if you had to make a lens with the same performance and make it smaller, would it cost more or less to manufacture ? Some of the lenses are small but still optically quite complex -- small size is a design constraint.

The Canon 50mm f/1.4 is cheap partly because it's an old lens (almost 20 years old) and partly because of the economy of scale (they sell a lot of  them).

The olympus 12mm isn't cheap but neither are Canon's higher quality wide angle primes.

It looks like the m43 lenses have been slowly dropping in price. For example, the 20mm f/1.7 sells for low 300s now (400 when it was released)

So the summary is that you pay a premium for good performance in a small package, and also for being an early adopter of the technology.
Title: Re: Canon Tempting Fate Being "Mirrored"?
Post by: Mike Ca on September 15, 2011, 03:12:47 AM
Just got an email from Canon USA inviting me to take a consumer survey. First part of survey was about what kind of cameras I owned, how frequently I used them for still and video and what kind of subjects. Then the rest of the survey was about my interest in mirror-less interchangeable lens cameras.

Apparently Canon is starting to look at this market.