canon rumors FORUM

Gear Talk => Software & Accessories => Topic started by: Canon Rumors on August 02, 2013, 09:33:18 AM

Title: Canon EOS 7D RAW Video?
Post by: Canon Rumors on August 02, 2013, 09:33:18 AM

From Magic Lantern

A1ex from the Magic Lantern team has let it be know that they think RAW video with the EOS 7D is a good possibility.



 


Read more at Planet5D


cr


Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D RAW Video?
Post by: JasonATL on August 02, 2013, 09:59:32 AM
Very nice development. With the CF card, continuous 1080/24p raw might be possible. I'd prefer this to the 5D3, since I actually prefer the APS-C sensor size for video. Excuse me while I order a 7D...
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D RAW Video?
Post by: crazyrunner33 on August 02, 2013, 02:04:33 PM
I have the 7D and the 5D Mark III, this is great news since I don't have to sell the 7D right away.  There's still the issue with the downsampling on the 7D, it is a line skipper and as a result it produces more noise at high iso and the aliasing is terrible.  It also isn't capable of full 1080p at full sensor resolution, this is only possible in crop mode. 
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D RAW Video?
Post by: Otara on August 02, 2013, 06:29:02 PM
All sounds great, but given the 7D ML is still at alpha stage and has been for some time, this is more a theoretical achievement than actual.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D RAW Video?
Post by: CarlMillerPhoto on August 03, 2013, 03:38:08 AM
Has anybody had luck with the Mark III Raw at full 1080/24p with a CF with less than 1000x rating?
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D RAW Video?
Post by: Marsu42 on August 03, 2013, 10:36:00 AM
All sounds great, but given the 7D ML is still at alpha stage and has been for some time, this is more a theoretical achievement than actual.

"Alpha" is more a label to scare people who don't know what they're doing, since the ml framework is very stable by now a port to a new camera is also expected to be stable. So the "alpha" label more relates to the fact that you shouldn't *rely* on it for production and it might not be feature-complete then that it's likely to brick your camera.

Btw raw on the 5d3 will still be better than 7d because I'd expect the 1080p data rate to be too high and 720p has moire.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D RAW Video?
Post by: DFM on August 03, 2013, 07:40:31 PM
The raw buffer offsets have been found but so far all we have is burst mode (a second or two of frames taken from the silent picture buffer). Moire and fringing are very bad - the fringing was equally terrible in the early days of raw on the 5D, but it was tamed. Moire is more of a problem, I can't see that going away.

However the general outlook for people shooting stills and H.264 is good - autobooting has been sorted so you no longer need to update the firmware every time you turn the camera on, and tests with dual-iso shooting seem to be working OK using yesterday's build. If you want all-I H.264, with sound, at maximum quality you can have it right now, and for most people that's more practicable than DNG sequences.

The big revelation is that the 7D writes to card like a thing possessed - people are getting over 90MB/s, but for some reason the read speed is 2/3 of that. IF the raw buffers can be captured there's more than enough throughput for full-HD, but as I said, I suspect the line-skip sensor will be a problem.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D RAW Video?
Post by: AAPhotog on August 04, 2013, 05:22:12 AM
Has anybody had luck with the Mark III Raw at full 1080/24p with a CF with less than 1000x rating?
Yes, sandisk 600x cards allow for continuous 1080p shooting in raw. thats the only 600x card I tested that allowed it though
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D RAW Video?
Post by: Otara on August 04, 2013, 07:22:28 AM
All sounds great, but given the 7D ML is still at alpha stage and has been for some time, this is more a theoretical achievement than actual.

"Alpha" is more a label to scare people who don't know what they're doing, since the ml framework is very stable by now a port to a new camera is also expected to be stable. So the "alpha" label more relates to the fact that you shouldn't *rely* on it for production and it might not be feature-complete then that it's likely to brick your camera.

Btw raw on the 5d3 will still be better than 7d because I'd expect the 1080p data rate to be too high and 720p has moire.

Thats true for most cameras where its a single DIGIC chip, but the 7D is pretty different with its dual DIGIC 4 setup, and a real alpha in my view. 

Otara
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D RAW Video?
Post by: Marsu42 on August 04, 2013, 07:30:39 AM
Thats true for most cameras where its a single DIGIC chip, but the 7D is pretty different with its dual DIGIC 4 setup, and a real alpha in my view. 

The problem with ml on the 7d was to get it to start at all, and now they managed to find a way, but afaik just like on single digic cameras ml is only using/running on one cpu, so it's not like the whole thing needs to get rewritten.

If ml used to brick cameras it was mostly because invalid values were written to the Canon fw, the result was that the cameras refuses to respond until you de-brick it with a special mini-firmware. But nowadays ml reverse engineering has a very good idea what valid values are and they check them before setting them, so the main risk is contained no matter how many cpus are on the pcb.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D RAW Video?
Post by: crazyrunner33 on August 04, 2013, 12:48:14 PM
I've been playing around with the hack last night and plan to post a test today.  In playback mode I hit almost 92 MB/s with the write being faster than the read, but in record mode it drops to around 58 MB/s write. 

I'll only shoot with the 7D in crop mode, the full sensor mode has too much aliasing and moire. 

Edit: Here's a quick sample at 2520x1200.  I assume they'll have a lot of features from the 5D ported over soon, but right now you have to wait almost a minute for the card to write after each 2 second clip.  It also dumps all the frames into one single folder instead of making individual clip files which makes it difficult to work with, but also a little fun at the same time.

Canon 7D 2 5K RAW Test Footage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctm1WW7VUXU#ws)

Here's the original file uploaded to Youtube: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BxvjJuCko_vAeTBudWNJZ1lTZ1U/edit?usp=sharing (https://docs.google.com/file/d/0BxvjJuCko_vAeTBudWNJZ1lTZ1U/edit?usp=sharing)

I can upload a couple DNG files if anyone is interested.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D RAW Video?
Post by: Otara on August 04, 2013, 09:20:38 PM
Thats true for most cameras where its a single DIGIC chip, but the 7D is pretty different with its dual DIGIC 4 setup, and a real alpha in my view. 

The problem with ml on the 7d was to get it to start at all, and now they managed to find a way, but afaik just like on single digic cameras ml is only using/running on one cpu, so it's not like the whole thing needs to get rewritten.

If ml used to brick cameras it was mostly because invalid values were written to the Canon fw, the result was that the cameras refuses to respond until you de-brick it with a special mini-firmware. But nowadays ml reverse engineering has a very good idea what valid values are and they check them before setting them, so the main risk is contained no matter how many cpus are on the pcb.

Alpha doesn't have to = bricking risk, but there probably is a greater risk of bricking with the 7d compared to the other cameras, if not massive.   The main limitations is that some functions aren't single digic only, so it needs extra work to get some things going, but isn't a particularly high priority camera to merit the extra effort, hence its ongoing alpha status compared to 5d cameras.

Also the firmware doesn't boot in the same way, and to get auto boot going is a much more laborious and in my view higher risk process.   So any new features go on top of those again.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D RAW Video?
Post by: DFM on August 05, 2013, 08:29:49 AM
Autoboot was solved on the 7D a couple of weeks ago and is now very simple. There's a firmware patch available to turn the bootflag on and off, just read the instructions from Pelican in the  7D alpha 2 thread (http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=3974.msg64310#msg64310) on ML's forum. You don't need to downgrade the Canon firmware or run the update through an old copy of EOS Utility, you simply patch the Canon FIR file (for copyright reasons the developers aren't releasing a pre-patched file), stick it on your CF card and run the in-camera update.

There remain a few issues with the core functionality (no framerate override and some problems with the audio module) but most of the basic stuff like zebras, magic zoom and H.264 bitrate hacks are working perfectly on the 7D just as they are on the other bodies - see http://nanomad.magiclantern.fm/nightly/features.html (http://nanomad.magiclantern.fm/nightly/features.html)

Also the firmware doesn't boot in the same way, and to get auto boot going is a much more laborious and in my view higher risk process.   So any new features go on top of those again.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D RAW Video?
Post by: cayenne on August 05, 2013, 11:52:50 AM
All sounds great, but given the 7D ML is still at alpha stage and has been for some time, this is more a theoretical achievement than actual.

"Alpha" is more a label to scare people who don't know what they're doing, since the ml framework is very stable by now a port to a new camera is also expected to be stable. So the "alpha" label more relates to the fact that you shouldn't *rely* on it for production and it might not be feature-complete then that it's likely to brick your camera.

Btw raw on the 5d3 will still be better than 7d because I'd expect the 1080p data rate to be too high and 720p has moire.

From what I've been following in the forums, the 5D3 is the one that is the most developed and working the best.

I wish they'd pool the resources, and concentrate on the 5D3, and get it 100% ready for "prime time" and bring that one at least to Beta, and have a straightforward method to easily load it, and also to easily get the RAW video out for a normal workflow, which appears to be straight into Davinci Resolve (after the 9.15 update).

At least get the one closest to working well out the door, and then concentrate next on the next best camera, maybe the 7D.

I'm a computer geek by trade, I do it for a living, however, after reading the ML forums, I'm not confident I could get the Alpha Stuff on, AND then correctly get the RAW video parts in, and am wary about some "flags" they say that can't be undone...etc.

I'm just not confident enough reading through the hundreds of links in the forums, etc...to get it to work, without potentially harming my camera.

So, wish they'd devote resouces to getting the first one ready for the masses, with good instructions and out the door, which seems to be the 5D3.....and then move onto the other cameras, rather than working a little on all of them, and taking forever to get any of them out into a stage that is easier to be used by the "Joe Sixpack" user crowd.

My $0.02,

cayenne
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D RAW Video?
Post by: thelebaron on August 05, 2013, 01:21:40 PM
5d3's is pretty solid as is, the interface could be better but i think ML as is is kind of fiddly so Im not really sure how much more you can expect out of it. EOSHD's guide to getting the firmware working is all you really need, the only major searching might be now that the link to the fw in his guide could be out of date.
All in all im not too worried about the flags or bricking it, I would expect its a minor fix for canon if something were to go wrong(as its just software), unlike getting moisture into it or damage from being dropped.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D RAW Video?
Post by: Marsu42 on August 05, 2013, 01:52:12 PM
I wish they'd pool the resources, and concentrate on the 5D3, and get it 100% ready for "prime time" and bring that one at least to Beta

I wish they'd concentrate only on the 60d, because that's what I have :-p ... remember ml started out and is still based on exploring, hacking and bringing more features and better usability to the cripped xxxd and xxd camera bodies - most ml enthusiasts and contributors only have the opportunity to see a camera of the 5d3 price range thorough a store window.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D RAW Video?
Post by: cayenne on August 05, 2013, 05:31:45 PM
5d3's is pretty solid as is, the interface could be better but i think ML as is is kind of fiddly so Im not really sure how much more you can expect out of it. EOSHD's guide to getting the firmware working is all you really need, the only major searching might be now that the link to the fw in his guide could be out of date.
All in all im not too worried about the flags or bricking it, I would expect its a minor fix for canon if something were to go wrong(as its just software), unlike getting moisture into it or damage from being dropped.

Well, the parts about installing ML itself are pretty straight forward, but getting to the parts where you have to find the nightly builds, get those parts separate, put them in xyz folder, do the hokey pokey ....is where I get lost.

And also, it the workflow for processing isn't that well laid out IMHO...rather than having it in a forum post that can get miles long with updates, they should have one page, that is updated to always reflect the latest instruction set with proper links, etc.....not only for installing but for post processing.

I'd like to see all files, including the RAW video parts be put into one firmware update rather than having to get the RAW video parts separate....and have a better spelled out post process.

Having to read a bunch of parts all separated out is the sign of true alpha and I'd like to see a more finished product which fromwhat I have read, should be possible for the 5D3....

C
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D RAW Video?
Post by: cayenne on August 05, 2013, 05:35:03 PM
I wish they'd pool the resources, and concentrate on the 5D3, and get it 100% ready for "prime time" and bring that one at least to Beta

I wish they'd concentrate only on the 60d, because that's what I have :-p ... remember ml started out and is still based on exploring, hacking and bringing more features and better usability to the cripped xxxd and xxd camera bodies - most ml enthusiasts and contributors only have the opportunity to see a camera of the 5d3 price range thorough a store window.

Of course, part of my wants is that I own a 5D3. However, my reasoning was that, currently the 5D3 is the best supported, has the best video and apparently most stuff is working on it, giving the impression that if they concentrated on it, for maybe 1-2 weeks, they could call it a version ready build and put that out, and then, concentrate on the next best supported camera and put that out...rather than try to have all of them working at once.

I get the impression at this point, that the lowest common denominator is holding up the cameras that are closer to working. I'd say get those out the door in a more beta or release ready form, and then go back and work on the camera platforms that are really needing much more work.

C
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D RAW Video?
Post by: Otara on August 05, 2013, 07:23:04 PM
Autoboot was solved on the 7D a couple of weeks ago and is now very simple.

I guess we have pretty different ideas about what 'very simple' means.  That post is from yesterday, a more detailed and helpful one is here:  http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=7464.0 (http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=7464.0)

Its prefaced by "this is a guide only for if you want the VERY EXPERIMENTAL and POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS autoboot version of the beta 2".  Partly bum covering of course, but not complete hyperbole.

Things are progressing quickly and theres some very promising stuff happening, but also it means levels of testing in the wild are going to be much lower.   

Otara
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D RAW Video?
Post by: thelebaron on August 07, 2013, 02:48:28 PM
The version I have includes the raw module in it, there wasnt any extra hunting for it on the forums. But I agree, their forums are pretty terrible and the way they lay out things is rubbish over there :)
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D RAW Video?
Post by: crazyrunner33 on August 07, 2013, 07:31:03 PM


Of course, part of my wants is that I own a 5D3. However, my reasoning was that, currently the 5D3 is the best supported, has the best video and apparently most stuff is working on it, giving the impression that if they concentrated on it, for maybe 1-2 weeks, they could call it a version ready build and put that out, and then, concentrate on the next best supported camera and put that out...rather than try to have all of them working at once.

I get the impression at this point, that the lowest common denominator is holding up the cameras that are closer to working. I'd say get those out the door in a more beta or release ready form, and then go back and work on the camera platforms that are really needing much more work.

C

I respectfully disagree. While I'm not a developer, I feel that the other cameras are not what's holding the 5D back in development and that 1-2 weeks being focused on the 5D alone will not bring a RAW beta or release for the 5D Mark III. I think the 5D is not being slowed down, or by much by the other cameras because a lot of the developers that are working on porting the other cameras are doing so because they own them. This isn't stopping the developers who are focusing on the Magic Lantern source.

It's also hard to make a dedicated beta or full RAW release just for the 5D by focusing everyone on it for one to two weeks because the TAW video is seeing improvements and changes every day. I personally do not want to see a RAW release until the developers and community are happy with the new MLV video format that they're currently developing. If you want to try out Magic Lantern's nightly then you'll have to follow the instructions or purchase EOSHD's guide, DVXUsers also has a guide that's free.

As for post production, it's easy. I find that it's best to use Davinci Resolve since it was designed for video and allows for a speedy workflow. Currently you shoot your RAW video, copy over the RAW files and run them through raw2dng which creates DNG folders. These DNG folders are all you need, Resolve will recognize these folders as video clips and you'll be good to go.
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D RAW Video?
Post by: DFM on August 09, 2013, 05:39:26 AM
The first builds were complicated as we had to compile the source from dailies scattered about on various sites, now everything is handled by EOSCard - if you can update your firmware with the camera menu and have a CF card reader, you can install ML (yes, OS X users have a couple more hoops to go through b/c EOSCard is Windows-only).

The biggest risk is if you interrupt the firmware update process, that's the cause of most "brick" reports but even that is usually fixable. You have to be really pushing things to do any permanent damage (in theory some of the super-high-bitrate video modes could overheat the chips, and there's a theoretical issue with dual-ISO affecting the buffers but nobody's seen it happen). Is it as stable as Canon's firmware? No, hence the 'alpha' tag - but realistically the bits that work are working fine, and the bits that aren't (such as continuous RAW) are not enabled in the builds that most users will be downloading. A few modules come and go as they're fine-tuned (ETTR, etc), but the core stuff like zebras and histograms are as reliable on the 7D now as they are on the other bodies. If you only want to shoot raw video it's not in any way ready for you yet and I wouldn't bother installing it. If you're shooting stills or H.264, even something like peaking or the Magic Zoom window could be a game-changer.

If you don't want to risk setting the autoboot flag, you can still use the original alpha 2 .FIR file, and 'update' your firmware each time you turn the camera on. That version does not make any permanent changes to the camera whatsoever.


I've been using ML-7D on commercial shoots for months, never had a problem. If ML itself errors out, remove the battery. Even with the bootflag set, if you want to go back to vanilla Canon firmware at any time just use a non-bootable CF card without the ML files on.


Autoboot was solved on the 7D a couple of weeks ago and is now very simple.

I guess we have pretty different ideas about what 'very simple' means.  That post is from yesterday, a more detailed and helpful one is here:  http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=7464.0 (http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=7464.0)

Its prefaced by "this is a guide only for if you want the VERY EXPERIMENTAL and POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS autoboot version of the beta 2".  Partly bum covering of course, but not complete hyperbole.

Things are progressing quickly and theres some very promising stuff happening, but also it means levels of testing in the wild are going to be much lower.   

Otara
Title: Re: Canon EOS 7D RAW Video?
Post by: DFM on August 11, 2013, 09:10:44 AM
ML now has continuous RAW video on the 7D  ;D ;D ;D

Max resolution in non-crop mode is 1152x622 at 24p or 30p, and 1152x464 at 60p*. It's aliased as you'd expect from line-skipping, but it's not too bad. You need a 1000x card to get the maximums, but people are getting 1152x576 continuous with a 400x Transcend and on a Sandisk Extreme 60mb/s mine's barely breaking a sweat.

*Note that the 7D builds don't have frame rate override, so 24p = 23.976 etc.

Using 5x crop mode (press the LiveView zoom button) you can remove the aliasing, at the expense of a very narrow FoV (a 50mm lens gives you about 100mm width at 1 metre). 10x crop mode doesn't work at all.

All this is still well below the max possible write speed of the 7D so the limitation at this point is in memory-wrangling. Full-HD is not an option for non-crop mode as the sensor data just isn't there, but in 5x crop mode you can in theory hit 2520x1200 (nobody's got that to work continuously - yet!)

Get the raw_rec enabled ML files from http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=3974.msg65694#msg65694 (http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=3974.msg65694#msg65694)