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Rumors => EOS Bodies => Topic started by: Canon Rumors on September 14, 2011, 10:46:32 AM

Title: 1Ds Mark IV Information [CR2]
Post by: Canon Rumors on September 14, 2011, 10:46:32 AM
1Ds Mark IV strikes again There is a lot of information floating through my inbox recently. Sorting through what is true, what is a wish and what is old recycled information is what keeps this site from getting boring.

There have been a couple of known sources say there is a lot of  ”misinformation” or “fragmented information” out there.  I dismiss highly detailed spec lists now, they’re just never true.

So why a post about a 1Ds Mark IV? Well, new information has come from a few sources and when you put it all together, we may be getting somewhere.

Here is a breakdown of specs and features I have received.

1Ds Mark IV Speculations

We did post recently that no DSLR would be coming in 2011, if I go by the above information, that’s still true with the April delivery. There can be grey areas with “announcement” and “delivery” when translating.

The first question I asked about the claimed MP and frame rate was; “Can you write to any cards that fast with 30 mp RAW files or would the camera have a giant buffer?” I haven’t heard back yet. I am also wondering if Canon figured out how to make a full frame sensor do 10fps. When speaking about APS-H in the 1D Mark IV, Canon themselves said they couldn’t recycle a full frame sensor fast enough to do 10fps. Hence Nikon’s 9fps on the D3/D3s.

Again, all of this is very vague and in my experience, vague is better.

cr

Title: Re: 1Ds Mark IV Information [CR2]
Post by: Mt Spokane Photography on September 14, 2011, 11:02:51 AM
The question of pulling data off the sensor and saving to a card at 10fps has been something that camera manufacturers have likely been working on for years.  Now that we have video, pulling 60fps is also expected.

I believe that its just a matter co cost.  Schemes to pull data off sensors faster exist, but take more complex processors, and saving data to cards faster takes a faster processor and fast card.

All this ends up costing more and using a lot more power, which means more heat to be dissapated.  So, technology improvements is multiple areas is needed.  I expect that it is possible to speed up things with newer technology, but the tradeoffs with more cost, more power, and more heat are what will determine the technology we actually see.

Whatever it is, we will see more speed and more MP.
Title: Re: 1Ds Mark IV Information [CR2]
Post by: Anastas on September 14, 2011, 11:14:51 AM
Nikon D3/s are 9fps because process power, not because the mirror. They shoout 11fps on DX mode, but mirror is the same!

It's absolutely possible 1Ds to be 10fps!
Title: Re: 1Ds Mark IV Information [CR2]
Post by: EYEONE on September 14, 2011, 11:34:40 AM
Nikon D3/s are 9fps because process power, not because the mirror. They shoout 11fps on DX mode, but mirror is the same!

It's absolutely possible 1Ds to be 10fps!

Yes, I thought the same thing at first.

But, you have to pull the data off the CMOS sensor, which does take time. The D3s can do 9fps at 12mp and 11fps and even less MP. I would think that at 30+mp we could be reaching some sort of physical limitation of getting the data off the sensor that fast.

How much of that, if any, is dependant on the processor?
Title: Re: 1Ds Mark IV Information [CR2]
Post by: NormanBates on September 14, 2011, 11:42:20 AM
32 Mpix should be around 40MB per RAW image; multiply by 10 fps, and 400 MB/s sounds like really, really a lot, totally out of reach for a CF card and even for an SSD drive

but RAM is not that expensive... a 512MB chip costs about $3 (at least the ones you use in computers); they surely could put a few of those in a $6K body, right?
Title: Re: 1Ds Mark IV Information [CR2]
Post by: wockawocka on September 14, 2011, 12:33:10 PM
32 Mpix should be around 40MB per RAW image; multiply by 10 fps, and 400 MB/s sounds like really, really a lot, totally out of reach for a CF card and even for an SSD drive

but RAM is not that expensive... a 512MB chip costs about $3 (at least the ones you use in computers); they surely could put a few of those in a $6K body, right?

All it needs is 4gb of Ram = 100 image buffer.
Title: Re: 1Ds Mark IV Information [CR2]
Post by: neuroanatomist on September 14, 2011, 12:35:06 PM
A 32 MP FF sensor and 8 fps?  Sold!

Agree that there's a world of difference between 9 fps with the 12 MP D3s sensor and similar frame rates with Canon's higher-resolution FF sensor. 
Title: Re: 1Ds Mark IV Information [CR2]
Post by: spam on September 14, 2011, 01:07:03 PM
Getting 30+ MP off the sensor at 10 fps isn't a problem, you just need enough parallell lines out. A77 can do 12 frames per second. Not with 30Mp, but pretty close. The challanges are processing and storing. You can avoid the storage problem with a huge buffer, but any buffer will eventually go full if write speed is too slow. One easy way to double write speed is using two cards and alternate between the cards.

Processing should also be able to keep up. Moore's law predict a doubling of transistors in a chip every 18 months. That doesn't quite translate to a doubling of performance, but imaging processors certainly develop at a faster speed than pixel count increase. Algorithms are also improved and a Digic V certainly have a better design than the Digic IV that has been around for several years. However, we also expect more for each generation and Digic V needs to implement CA-removal and better video-downsampling than the current processor so some of the new transistors are bound to be used for new features and not higher speed. Anyway, a 1D-class camera can certainly use 2 or even more Digic chips so I can't really see that processing speed could be an issue.
Title: Re: 1Ds Mark IV Information [CR2]
Post by: davidpeter on September 14, 2011, 01:11:30 PM
I'm going to miss the APS-C format, if the 1D/1Ds lines are being merged. The 24-70 is soooo good with the 1.3x crop...
Title: Re: 1Ds Mark IV Information [CR2]
Post by: riogrande100 on September 14, 2011, 01:19:39 PM
Long time visitor first time poster!

As has been pointed out using RAM as its memory buffer and a fast CPU will handle the picture from the sensor to buffer. And if using dual memory card slots it may meant for 10fps the system will write one image to one card and the next to the next. This taking the 400MB down to 200M per second. That is still a lot but by load balancing resources they can perform this task. Dual CPU, Dual RAM and Dual Memory makes it possible.

The most difficult part I believe would be the sensor and if it can succesffuly flush itself for the next image.
Title: Re: 1Ds Mark IV Information [CR2]
Post by: neuroanatomist on September 14, 2011, 01:22:02 PM
I'm going to miss the APS-C format, if the 1D/1Ds lines are being merged. The 24-70 is soooo good with the 1.3x crop...

APS-H, you mean...
Title: Re: 1Ds Mark IV Information [CR2]
Post by: infilm on September 14, 2011, 01:31:20 PM
I assume that if the 1D and !Ds are "merged", that will mean the end of the 1D. Canon will only have a FF pro body.
Title: Re: 1Ds Mark IV Information [CR2]
Post by: Shnookums on September 14, 2011, 01:37:40 PM
Oh yes. This is great news. For me at least. I think 30+ mp is possible with 8-10 fps. If not, you could keep the file smaller to get more fps. The 5DII does 60fps using it's entire sensor at 720p. So Canon knows how the bind pixel to get higher fps.

When my 1DII was announced, no one believed it would be possible to get 8mp at 8fps. Canon did it anyway.

Let's wait and see, but I'm happy :)
Title: Re: 1Ds Mark IV Information [CR2]
Post by: RichFisher on September 14, 2011, 01:39:20 PM
I assume that if the 1D and !Ds are "merged", that will mean the end of the 1D. Canon will only have a FF pro body.

Hope that the new camera will be priced at 1D M4 introduction level ($5,000 US), not the  1Ds M3 level ($8,000 US).  That is a big difference - especially if you buy 2.
Title: Re: 1Ds Mark IV Information [CR2]
Post by: neuroanatomist on September 14, 2011, 01:42:03 PM
I assume that if the 1D and !Ds are "merged", that will mean the end of the 1D. Canon will only have a FF pro body.

True, if true.  A 32 MP sensor running in an 'APS-H mode' for the FoV benefit of a cropped sensor would yield a 19 MP image, so that still 'improves' (as Canon seems to define it, i.e. more MPs) on the 1D IV's 16 MP sensor. 

Canon could certainly tie a frame rate to a crop mode, with 10 fps in crop mode (at 19 MP, and we know dual Digic IV can handle 18 MP at 8 fps, so should be no problem for Digic V especially dual), and a lower frame rate in FF mode.

Hope that the new camera will be priced at 1D M4 introduction level ($5,000 US), not the  1Ds M3 level ($8,000 US).

A vain hope.  If they merge them, I'd expect at least 1Ds MkIII pricing.

Frankly, I don't seem them merging the lines any time soon - they'll need to bring out something to sit in the large gap from $2500 to $8000.
Title: Re: 1Ds Mark IV Information [CR2]
Post by: elusive1 on September 14, 2011, 01:42:27 PM
October announcement with an April release? That's a 6 month gap. What happened to this statement a few days ago?

"it was also flatly said that “Canon will announce a new camera when it’s done, and not a minute before”. Canon has no desire to announce a camera and it not be available for 2-3 months."

I'd be happy with a 2 month gap, but 6 months? Really bad.

I think nobody, including Canon as it's starting to seem, has any idea when they're going to release anything. I think Digic V is giving them a lot of problems, and that's probably why the crazy secrecy to string people along.
Title: Re: 1Ds Mark IV Information [CR2]
Post by: bornshooter on September 14, 2011, 01:46:02 PM
im beginning to wonder about the credibility of your contacts
Title: Re: 1Ds Mark IV Information [CR2]
Post by: Stone on September 14, 2011, 01:46:20 PM
yeah, I don't expect this to be an affordable body.  If they merge, it's got to have improved IQ as compared to the 1DsIII and improved performance as compared to the 1DIV.  If true, I'll bet Canon continues selling the 1DIV for a while after this body is released.  I can't see it being any cheaper than 6-7K.  6months is a long wait, glad I just ordered a 7D so I can wait for those prices to come down a bit.
Title: Re: 1Ds Mark IV Information [CR2]
Post by: Lawliet on September 14, 2011, 01:52:09 PM
You always can increase the number of readout channels, basically structuring the sensor like multiple adjoined independent units.

As for the mechanical components: using at least one electronic curtain would make things easier, and with improvements very sensible for video that might come for free.

Those RAWs would be in the 45-50MB ballpark. A good CFast card could store 3 per second, with CF or SD topping out at 2/s at best. Even dual slots wouldn't make it a viable substitute for buffer space. Reading only a fraction of the sensor  like the D2x did would help, or just using 2-4GB of RAM for really nice buffer depths.

Wouldn't a unified 1D-Line make some room for a body in the 3,5k range, somewhat lower resolution and speed, but without feeling crippled? ;D
Title: Re: 1Ds Mark IV Information [CR2]
Post by: whistlerdan on September 14, 2011, 02:06:14 PM
I don't see what they have to gain by announcing a camera 6 or 7 months ahead of it's shipping date.  Wouldn't that be unprecedented ?

Title: Re: 1Ds Mark IV Information [CR2]
Post by: Canihaspicture on September 14, 2011, 02:24:22 PM
30 or 32 Megapixels... That's great for a 5d Mark III but a 1Ds... I don't know, I'm not impressed.
Title: Re: 1Ds Mark IV Information [CR2]
Post by: Lawliet on September 14, 2011, 02:33:35 PM
Forget about that number, diminishing returns on all fronts.40 instead of 30 would be only 15% more linear resolution, but after factors like diffraction, the AA filter , real life lenses and such kick in you're lucky if half of that remains.
Title: Re: 1Ds Mark IV Information [CR2]
Post by: Rukes on September 14, 2011, 04:07:33 PM
October announcement with an April release? That's a 6 month gap. What happened to this statement a few days ago?

"it was also flatly said that “Canon will announce a new camera when it’s done, and not a minute before”. Canon has no desire to announce a camera and it not be available for 2-3 months."

I'd be happy with a 2 month gap, but 6 months? Really bad.

6 months seems really crazy between an announcement and the release date, I think all previous Canon cameras have announced it, then hit stores around 2 months later.

Only exception was probably the 8-15mm, announced at the end of August with a planned release date of January. A lens they can get away with, a new body they can't. Would give competition way too much time to put out something new that would take away from sales in the meantime.
Title: Re: 1Ds Mark IV Information [CR2]
Post by: Lawliet on September 14, 2011, 04:59:55 PM
Keep in mind that we aren't talking about entry level. The intended customer can't simply buy the  other product on the shelf. Knowing whats coming would make it easier not to think to much about the new toys on the other side, just as the 200-400/4 mock up helps people not to get too tempted by the Nikkor.
Title: Re: 1Ds Mark IV Information [CR2]
Post by: unfocused on September 14, 2011, 05:01:30 PM
A couple of things.

I wonder what people mean by "merging" the 1D and 1Ds lines. The 1D isn't even two years old. I'm not aware of any reason Canon would need to replace that body. So, it makes sense to me that they will continue to sell the 1D for as long as photographers buy it.

I can't see them making an announcement that they are abandoning the line, rather I expect them to simply let it go until the demand no longer justifies making the body. You can still get a Canon EOS-1V film camera from Adorama. We may never see an updated 1D, but I would be surprised if Canon made a formal announcement that they are abandoning the format.

Next, I have a question for those who need more megapixels. Is 32 mp enough? Could this be the worst of both worlds? Too large of files for photojournalists, not enough megapixels for studio shooters? If I'm doing the math right, this scales out to about 12mp in APS-C. That doesn't seem that groundbreaking.

Not criticisms. Not even a strong opinion as this camera is never going to be in my budget. But, just some thoughts.
Title: Re: 1Ds Mark IV Information [CR2]
Post by: Dave on September 14, 2011, 05:46:50 PM
Quote
I wonder what people mean by "merging" the 1D and 1Ds lines.
Merging makes a lot of sense - especially in the pro area. The product cycles (can you say that in english??) in the pro segment are quite(!!!) long. The 1DS is 4 years old. In terms of digital quipment this is an eternity. The development is quite fast here. And especially the pro users don't want to wait that long for new features.

But development costs a lot of money. So it's better to have jsut one high-level product instead of two and add fill up the product line with "lower" cameras. Canon splitted the 50D to the 60D and the 7D and they relased a new series 1xxxD and on so it wouldn't be THAT far out to merge two lines on the other end of the line.
Title: Re: 1Ds Mark IV Information [CR2]
Post by: Shnookums on September 14, 2011, 06:09:16 PM
I wonder what people mean by "merging" the 1D and 1Ds lines. The 1D isn't even two years old. I'm not aware of any reason Canon would need to replace that body. So, it makes sense to me that they will continue to sell the 1D for as long as photographers buy it.

With the 7D around, people who need a sport camera have a great camera with capable auto-focus. Maybe Canon know the next 7DII will have the 45 point AF or something even better. For those who need range, the 1.6x is also a nice thing. So why keep the 1D around?

I can't see them making an announcement that they are abandoning the line, rather I expect them to simply let it go until the demand no longer justifies making the body.

Yes, Canon would not stop selling the 1D. But it would be cheaper than the new 1Ds and when the 7DII is out, maybe it will do 10fps and have close to the same weather sealing

Is 32 mp enough? Could this be the worst of both worlds? Too large of files for photojournalists, not enough megapixels for studio shooters?

32mp is not a bad bump up from 21... Photo-journaliste can use sRAW file. The way I see it... 5fps @ 32mp and 10fps @ lower resolution. So when you need high res for landscape shoot full RAW. When you need quick action, you can sacrifice rez for speed. Anyway who need a serie of 3000 volleyball photos in 32mp...
Title: Re: 1Ds Mark IV Information [CR2]
Post by: akiskev on September 14, 2011, 06:10:11 PM
The 5DII does 60fps using it's entire sensor at 720p. So Canon knows how the bind pixel to get higher fps.
Since when?????
Title: Re: 1Ds Mark IV Information [CR2]
Post by: photogaz on September 14, 2011, 06:15:50 PM
My biggest problem with sRAW is I never use it.  When I know I can have the resolution I think I need it!
Title: Re: 1Ds Mark IV Information [CR2]
Post by: Shnookums on September 14, 2011, 06:29:45 PM
The 5DII does 60fps using it's entire sensor at 720p. So Canon knows how the bind pixel to get higher fps.
Since when?????

It doesnt? My bad :) ~ I dont have a 5DII. But it does 30fps @ 1080p. My point was that when lowering the resolution by binding pixel together, the 5DII can read its sensor faster.
Title: Re: 1Ds Mark IV Information [CR2]
Post by: akiskev on September 14, 2011, 06:47:54 PM
The 5DII does 60fps using it's entire sensor at 720p. So Canon knows how the bind pixel to get higher fps.
Since when?????

It doesnt? My bad :) ~ I dont have a 5DII. But it does 30fps @ 1080p. My point was that when lowering the resolution by binding pixel together, the 5DII can read its sensor faster.
Damn, I thought I missed a firmware upgrade or something. Your point is valid.
Title: Re: 1Ds Mark IV Information [CR2]
Post by: messus on September 14, 2011, 07:33:37 PM
30+ Mpx means at least 35MB files x 10 = 350MB.

My SanDisk 128GB PRO UDMA7 memory card is capable of writing up to 110MBps,
if you have two cards in parallel you can achieve up to 220MBps.

You can of course have a faster buffer, but this buffer would have to be pretty large.

For me the most important factor is what the camera is capable of delivering to the
memory card over time, not only to the buffer.

My SSD harddisk, which currently is the fastest in the world, the OCZ 240GB IOPS SSD,
can write up to 500MBps. Maybe if bringing a computer out in the field you could connect
your 1Ds Mk4 via USB 3.0 and be able to write 10fps @ 30Mpx. But I will not do it !

I just don't get it why Canon cannot jump of the megapixel wagon and leave their
camera at max 25Mpx. Who on earth needs more?

More important is better ISO performance, CONSIDERABLY BETTER ISO PERFORMANCE !!!,
and SPEED !! on a full frame pro body!

Title: Re: 1Ds Mark IV Information [CR2]
Post by: macfly on September 14, 2011, 08:05:03 PM
All I can say is thank heavens, and please get a move on! 

Any idea if the new 24-70 be intro'd with it?


PS:
Quote
I just don't get it why Canon cannot jump of the megapixel wagon and leave their
camera at max 25Mpx. Who on earth needs more?
ME!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: 1Ds Mark IV Information [CR2]
Post by: Shnookums on September 14, 2011, 09:17:00 PM
30+ Mpx means at least 35MB files x 10 = 350MB.

My SanDisk 128GB PRO UDMA7 memory card is capable of writing up to 110MBps,
if you have two cards in parallel you can achieve up to 220MBps.

CFast cards are much faster than SD or CF cards. Problem is they have not been used in camera yet. But chances are its mainly because they were not needed yet.

Also, It doesnt mean that 30mp and 10fps has to happen at the same time. Sacrifice resolution for speed could be a good compromise that already exist in the 1D vs 1Ds line.
Title: Re: 1Ds Mark IV Information [CR2]
Post by: Lawliet on September 14, 2011, 11:40:19 PM
My point was that when lowering the resolution by binding pixel together, the 5DII can read its sensor faster.
Sadly it can't. The 5DII simply drops pixels which messes with the bayer pattern, introducing aliasing artifacts.
Title: Re: 1Ds Mark IV Information [CR2]
Post by: kirillica on September 15, 2011, 04:48:17 AM
Quote
I just don't get it why Canon cannot jump of the megapixel wagon and leave their
camera at max 25Mpx. Who on earth needs more?
ME!!!!!!!!
Buddy, you should switch to medium format ;)
Title: Re: 1Ds Mark IV Information [CR2]
Post by: northersun on September 15, 2011, 05:23:04 AM
Hmm, wonder when we will get a CR3.
Title: Re: 1Ds Mark IV Information [CR2]
Post by: moreorless on September 15, 2011, 08:45:32 AM
With the 7D around, people who need a sport camera have a great camera with capable auto-focus. Maybe Canon know the next 7DII will have the 45 point AF or something even better. For those who need range, the 1.6x is also a nice thing. So why keep the 1D around?...

That could also I spose have the benefit of making it easier to differentiate product lines with AF...

Pro Grade - 1Ds & 7D

Current 7D Standard  - 5D and xxD

Current Basic - xxxD and xxxxD

The same could be true with FPS aswell, a 1Ds Mk4 with 10 FPS vs say a 5D mk3 with 5 FPS provides much more of a differentiation than they currently have.
Title: Re: 1Ds Mark IV Information [CR2]
Post by: Dave on September 15, 2011, 09:38:55 AM
Hmm, wonder when we will get a CR3.

What exactly is CR2, CR3 etc??? Was already wondering...
Title: Re: 1Ds Mark IV Information [CR2]
Post by: Chewy734 on September 15, 2011, 09:42:32 AM
What exactly is CR2, CR3 etc??? Was already wondering...