canon rumors FORUM

Gear Talk => Canon General => Topic started by: Shnookums on September 15, 2011, 07:23:11 PM

Title: A Canon Hollywood Event on November 3, 2011
Post by: Shnookums on September 15, 2011, 07:23:11 PM
http://www.engadget.com/2011/09/15/canon-plans-hollywood-event-ready-to-roll-out-the-red-carpet-on/

In Hollywood?

Could be DSLR with video but could also be 4k FF camcorder or something like it.

Anyway, exciting :)

C
Title: Re: A Canon Hollywood Event on November 3, 2011
Post by: riogrande100 on September 15, 2011, 07:38:30 PM
Maybe a Hollywood centric camera but im guessing probably a full DSLR Video Camera HyBrid, so that the camera can be adopted ito even more movies and TV shows.

Title: A Canon Hollywood Event on November 3, 2011
Post by: Canon Rumors on September 15, 2011, 07:48:14 PM
“Canon is making an historical global announcement” So what does Canon have planned for November 3, 2011? Something big apparently.

I would say this event is NOT for an EOS or Mirrorless camera system, the city it’s being held in should be a giveaway. I expect something new and exciting for the cinematographer.

We had this rumor a few weeks back about a November announcement.

4K camera? An EF compatible video camera? Something to compete with RED? Something to compete with Sony & Panasonic? I’m sure we’ll be learning more before November 3, 2011.

Project Imagin8ion It has been suggested by a reader that the event could be related to the Project Imagin8ion partnership with Ron Howard.

Thanks to everyone that sent this in.

via [eg]

cr

Title: Re: A Canon Hollywood Event on November 3, 2011
Post by: expatinasia on September 15, 2011, 08:03:50 PM
Exciting, and only 7 weeks to discuss it!! ;-) Whatever cameras they announce, I would bet USB 3.0 is involved somewhere.

With it being Hollwood, makes me think Paparazzi, glam, and for some reason high-end DSLRs.

Looking forward to this "Historic Announcement".
Title: Re: A Canon Hollywood Event on November 3, 2011
Post by: dstppy on September 15, 2011, 08:05:15 PM
Okay, paging all trolls . . . for once, a topic I can get behind certain individuals that give the raspberries to anything that doesn't mention an $8k camera . . .

Gentlemen, before you pounce, I agree with the impending "big fat hairy deal" :)

Seriously, a new A and Elph would be much more promising . . .
Title: Re: A Canon Hollywood Event on November 3, 2011
Post by: macfly on September 15, 2011, 08:44:52 PM
Well since it's where I live I suggest that the team here send me along as your roving reporter, and I'll report back with live updates.
Title: Re: A Canon Hollywood Event on November 3, 2011
Post by: LetTheRightLensIn on September 15, 2011, 09:36:45 PM
One might hope for 5D3. The new Digic V sounds like it might be fast enough to do 24fps with full, proper, sampling over the entire 21-24MP sensor which would give the video world's better resolution, less noise and far, FAR less moire/aliasing than the 5D2 video and might even top out the $$$$$$$$ top line cinema cams (of course it might be 8bits per channel and with much worse compression that what you can get out of those).

Although maybe it's just the new camcorders. :(
Title: Re: A Canon Hollywood Event on November 3, 2011
Post by: amarlez on September 15, 2011, 09:39:05 PM
We actually know that it's anything BUT a camera announcement date.

Anyone remember the link for Project Imagin8ion on the Canon site? This has to be that. And they would never announce two things big like that together and have the publicity undercut one another.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Imagination
Title: Re: A Canon Hollywood Event on November 3, 2011
Post by: Son of Daguerre on September 15, 2011, 10:08:50 PM
Definitely a 4K camera. Possibly an EF-compatible 4K video camera.
Title: Re: A Canon Hollywood Event on November 3, 2011
Post by: jlev23 on September 15, 2011, 10:41:56 PM
sorry to burst peoples bubble, but i have the inside track and its not going to be camera at all, its going to be the release of the two light weight professional pl mount canon zooms for use with many alexas, epics and other highly professional hd cameras, plus they are going to have a hefty price tag.
Title: Re: A Canon Hollywood Event on November 3, 2011
Post by: DJL329 on September 15, 2011, 11:42:00 PM
“Canon is making an historical global announcement”

Psst, moderator.  It's "historic" (something important), not "historical" (anything from the past, not necessarily important).   ;)
Title: Re: A Canon Hollywood Event on November 3, 2011
Post by: Mt Spokane Photography on September 15, 2011, 11:58:38 PM
Whatever it is, I probably can't afford it.  If it is a FF cinema camera, I doubt that it would use EF lenses.

Cinema quality lenses are a whole different product than EF lenses, with a price to match. Thats why they are usually rented.
Title: Re: A Canon Hollywood Event on November 3, 2011
Post by: daniel charms on September 16, 2011, 12:59:51 AM
We actually know that it's anything BUT a camera announcement date.

Anyone remember the link for Project Imagin8ion on the Canon site? This has to be that. And they would never announce two things big like that together and have the publicity undercut one another.
Except this will be a Hollywood, CA event, while the Imagination event will take place in New York, so it doesn't seem to be it (not to mention that they've already announced that one).

Whatever it is, I probably can't afford it.  If it is a FF cinema camera, I doubt that it would use EF lenses.

Cinema quality lenses are a whole different product than EF lenses, with a price to match. Thats why they are usually rented.
Who says they're aiming for the ultra-expensive cinema camera market, though? That market seems to be quite well saturated and there can't be much profit to be made there, at least compared to consumer products. On the other hand, the 5D2 has proven that many amateur and indie film-makers don't really care if the camera and lenses they use are "cinema quality", as long as they get the work done and are relatively cheap. So I wouldn't be surprised if Canon really does come out with an EF mount video camera because there seems to be quite a huge market for something like this - a market Canon themselves created and where there's (seemingly) hardly any competition.
Title: Re: A Canon Hollywood Event on November 3, 2011
Post by: UncleFester on September 16, 2011, 01:11:56 AM
“Canon is making an historical global announcement”

Psst, moderator.  It's "historic" (something important), not "historical" (anything from the past, not necessarily important).   ;)

And a instead of an.  It will probably turn out to be hysterical anyway.


Korg pulled this stunt not to long ago only to reveal another revamped version of their tired keyboard line.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-LCf320qXg


Title: Re: A Canon Hollywood Event on November 3, 2011
Post by: leGreve on September 16, 2011, 02:20:25 AM
Whatever it is, I probably can't afford it.  If it is a FF cinema camera, I doubt that it would use EF lenses.

Cinema quality lenses are a whole different product than EF lenses, with a price to match. Thats why they are usually rented.

My thoughts as well... the cinema world is an ambitious step, and I might say that it's even too ambitious for Canon the Consumer Company.

Even though the EF L series lenses can look nice on video, the step up is definitely visible on the pro cinema lenses ranging from 5k dollars and up a piece. If I indeed did invest in something in the range of RED or Alexa, I would never humble myself to use anything less than Zeiss CP, and most likely I would try to find the finances to step it up one or two notches.

On the other hand... maybe Canon is just blowing out steam to avoid people running away from their aging Eos series to one of the competitors... like Sony or Pana :) It would buy them some time to get closer to the Ds and mk III release and have people "uuuuuuhhh" and "ahhhhh". Never underestimate fanbois.
Title: Re: A Canon Hollywood Event on November 3, 2011
Post by: justicend on September 16, 2011, 02:27:31 AM
Hollywood event means something related with cinema and cinematographer. So it has to be something big, since canon pl mount lens are available already. And Project imagin8ion ??? whats that "8" doing there with imaging ? 8k project from canon. canonrumor.com traffic increases this two weeks I suppose.
Title: Re: A Canon Hollywood Event on November 3, 2011
Post by: gene_can_sing on September 16, 2011, 02:40:19 AM
I think it will be a video camera of some sort.

Could be the next 5D3 also since the 5D2 was a very revolutionary video camera.

I work in TV in Los Angeles and the 5D2 was definitely a revolution. The high end stuff is mostly shot on RED and Alexa, but the Canons are used a lot on budget stuff. Several years ago, I worked the NBC rebrand (which is on TV about 100 times a night). Most of the cast from all the prime time shows were shot with the 5D2 and this was a very high profile, huge job.

In fact, I would say the 5D2 is much more revolutionary than the RED because it brought interchangeable lens HD to the masses. PLUS, it's the ONLY full frame video camera so it has that really sexy look.

So yeah, the 5D2 and 7D has made a huge impact on independent films and lower end broadcast stuff.

As for the people who discredit EOS lenses for high quality video, why would RED make an EOS mount specifically for the RED Epic? It's because you can get great results on EOS lenses that won't kill your budget.

99% of people cannot buy PL mount glass and Zeiss CP lenses are also really expensive. It's very nice to own a set of lenses that you can use at any time. PLs and Zeiss CPs are lenses you have to rent because of the price, so you can never just walk out the door and shoot something.

So for the rest of us, EOS is a great, affordable video lens option. And TONS of great videos have been made with EOS lenses in the last few years. Just look at Philip Bloom. He's not alone as there are many others who don't worry about prestige and just shoot with what they have.

If Canon is smart, they will come out with something more affordable, yet close to the RED and higher end Sonys in specs. Then, they would do really well. After all, 5Ds cost a lot more than Rebels, but I bet Canon makes a lot more revenue off the Rebels than the 5Ds because of sheer sales volume. I think that's what Canon should do. The 5D2 was a perfect example of decent camera that cut into the high end REDs because of a good price tag. Of course the RED is better, but the 5D2 is good enough in many instances.

Just fix the dreaded moire pattern, make it 422, add 1080 60p, a bit more detail in the video and I will be happy. That's not asking for a whole lot. Sony has already done it (minus the 422)
Title: Re: A Canon Hollywood Event on November 3, 2011
Post by: Polansky on September 16, 2011, 03:03:04 AM
My guess: Canon will anounce that they will retreat out of the DSLR market and will solely focus on the video market in future.  ;)

Why does it take so long for Canon to announce the 1Ds MKIV?
I honestly start to think 1Ds series is EOL.
Title: Re: A Canon Hollywood Event on November 3, 2011
Post by: NormanBates on September 16, 2011, 04:24:05 AM
yes, canon PL glass has already been done, so it wouldn't be "historic"
http://nofilmschool.com/2011/04/canon-announces-pl-mount-zoom-lenses-pl/

so my bet is EF-mount video camera, and I hope it’s good enought that they don’t feel they have to cripple the video functions of the 5D3, for which I’d say the time is 2012Q1

oh, and by the way, my hopes for the 5D3 are pretty close to what gene_can_sing said: clean image (no aliasing/moire), better codec (422 XF), better low light (clean ISO 6400), and 1080p60
Title: Re: A Canon Hollywood Event on November 3, 2011
Post by: Gothmoth on September 16, 2011, 04:34:46 AM
My guess: Canon will anounce that they will retreat out of the DSLR market and will solely focus on the video market in future.  ;)

Why does it take so long for Canon to announce the 1Ds MKIV?
I honestly start to think 1Ds series is EOL.

and i wonder where trolls like you come from.   ::)

canon could sure release a new 1Ds modell every 18 month.
but to make big improvements the development process needs time.

who wants minor improvements on a camera that is so expensive?

i mean face it.... 80% of you guys who scream for a new 1Ds have not the MONEY to buy it anyway. and that is the simple truth....



Title: Re: A Canon Hollywood Event on November 3, 2011
Post by: philHolland on September 16, 2011, 05:15:44 AM
On the topic of lenses that sprouted up here.

Canon lenses are suitable and have been used in motion pictures for years (I've used them myself for just that).  Above that, for those using VistaVision systems through Super35 there are lenses that have been rehoused from still lenses built by Nikon, Canon, Olympus, and Leica.

Most of what people are after when it comes to higher quality cinema glass is "flatness" (no barrel distortion/pin cushioning),  corner to corner sharpness, minimal lens breathing, and hopefully no true optical artifacts (like chromatic aberration, ghosting, etc).  Basically providing a very natural viewing experience when pulling focus and swapping out glass.  Optical quality is often more important than size and weight in the motion picture world.

That said, Canon and other manufacturers are trying to do something wildly different.  They are trying to pack the most "bang" into the most compact "gun".  Basically pushing for fewer optics, lighter weight, with a focus on portability.  Optically towards price versus quality they are very nice.  I have friends though who complain that the 70-200mm f/2.8L IS is too heavy. 

Try shooting with a 45lb+ shoulder rig all day :)  In fact these days, it's not totally uncommon for cinema gear to go up to 90lbs on a tripod.  Which is scary in reality.  It's like shooting a movie with your 5D Mark II and a small person sitting on the camera.

Lens selection is very personal for cinematographers (and photographers for that matter) and those who demand the most out of their optics don't mind buying (or more likely renting) lens kits that range in the $30k-$300K price point.  I've seen a few films shoot with one versatile high quality zoom.  However, most high end features are shot on primes.  Often though, it's again, a personal choice between zoom and prime for the shooter.
Title: Re: A Canon Hollywood Event on November 3, 2011
Post by: NormanBates on September 16, 2011, 06:50:45 AM
when money, size and weight are not longer an issue, you can start to complain about stuff that regular people would never, ever, even think about; and that's when canon L glass starts to be sub-par

but even people using those super awesome cine lenses can perceive the awesomeness of a decent image in a small package for a (relatively) very low price, and that's where canon could come in

anybody interested in the world of huge cine lenses, please visit this blog:
http://timurcivan.blogspot.com/
for things such as a mildly negative review of the zeiss compact primes (because the look that the lenses deliver is not consistent throughout the range) ($3900 each):
http://timurcivan.blogspot.com/2011/07/examination-of-lenses-carl-zeiss.html
and an enthusiastic review of the cooke ipanchro set of cine primes ($7400 each):
http://timurcivan.blogspot.com/2011/04/examination-of-lenses-part-ii-cooke.html
(and yes, I know in many ways it's a bit like watching p0rn...)
Title: Project Imagin8ion
Post by: philHolland on September 16, 2011, 08:38:26 AM
In terms of Project Imagin8ion, Ron Howard, and Canon; there was no clue on what the final project would be shot on other than "Canon cameras".   While the trailer and preview concept was certainly shot with current HDSLRs, it would be solid publicity to have a big director like Ron Howard to be the first to do something out of the gate with some new toys. 

Make's you wonder if that "8" is so innocent in that name.
Title: Re: A Canon Hollywood Event on November 3, 2011
Post by: NormanBates on September 16, 2011, 09:39:16 AM
an 8D with a DSLR body but catering to the video crowd would be awesome

I want:
* 7D style body
* 7D price
* no aliasing/moire
* high quality 422 codec
* clean ISO 3200
* 11 Mpix sensor with APS-C size but 16:9 aspect ratio (22.3 x 12.5 instead of 22.3 x 14.9mm), and a resolution of 4450x2490, for sharp 4K footage; if that's too much, 3 Mpix (2300x1300) for sharp 1080p will also make me very happy
* you can save the mirror, viewfinder, flash and even the AF system, just give me a canon-brand LCD loupe with a nice quick-release mechanism built-in in the swivel LCD, thankyouverymuch
Title: Re: A Canon Hollywood Event on November 3, 2011
Post by: gene_can_sing on September 16, 2011, 09:59:45 AM
I could be wrong, but I think the 8 is a reference to the final 8 photos that Ron Howard choose from thousands of photos, which is somehow an important aspect of his project.

Since Canon doesn't really have a high end video market to protect, I hope what they try to do is offer something in the near performance range of the RED, but at a more consumer price. Of course it will still be expensive (probably more than many are willing to spend), but REDs and Alexas are really, really expensive and mostly the domain of rental houses and a few individuals. They would really undercut RED and allow many more to own a camera and lenses capable of cinema quality.
Title: Re: A Canon Hollywood Event on November 3, 2011
Post by: pedro on September 16, 2011, 11:34:35 AM
oh, and by the way, my hopes for the 5D3 are pretty close to what gene_can_sing said: clean image (no aliasing/moire), better codec (422 XF), better low light (clean ISO 6400), and 1080p60
@NormanBates: As I am currently shooting a 30D saving up for 5Diii:
What would clean ISO 6400 mean compared to my 30D?
Would ISO 25600 on the 5Diii look something like my 30D's H (ISO3200) well exposed to the right or even cleaner?
Thanks in advance. Cheers, Pedro
Title: Re: A Canon Hollywood Event on November 3, 2011
Post by: CdnBook on September 16, 2011, 11:48:16 AM
I've been a pro DSLR cinematographer for two years now - words can't even begin to describe how badly I want a 5D3 with increased video performance, or an affordable 4-5k full-frame video camera!  ;D

I think Canon's got an ace up their sleeve with regards to video, which might even rock the boat a little around RED and Alexa. My only concern is, Canon didn't know what they had when they launched the 5D2 (or at least how revolutionary it would become). Now they know exactly what they have, and may price it accordingly only because they can... which worries me.

I really hope the future of video at Canon continues on in the same spirit as the 5D2's affordability.
Title: Re: A Canon Hollywood Event on November 3, 2011
Post by: Gothmoth on September 16, 2011, 12:08:33 PM
cinematographer... mhm... would that not mean i can see you work in cinemas?

unfortunately all so called cinematographer i know produce for everything but the cinema...   ;D
 
Title: Re: A Canon Hollywood Event on November 3, 2011
Post by: pedro on September 16, 2011, 12:18:36 PM
I really hope the future of video at Canon continues on in the same spirit as the 5D2's affordability.
plus one, could this give way to an FF 6D in the near future? with less video facilities...I don't use it anyway...good stills handheld at low light is the game I'm in... 8)
Title: Re: A Canon Hollywood Event on November 3, 2011
Post by: CdnBook on September 16, 2011, 12:44:19 PM
cinematographer... mhm... would that not mean i can see you work in cinemas?

unfortunately all so called cinematographer i know produce for everything but the cinema...   ;D


Cinematography is an art form. Saying it has to appear in the cinema to be called cinematography is like saying paintings are only paintings if they're hung in an art gallery that you pay admission for. Silly.
Title: Re: A Canon Hollywood Event on November 3, 2011
Post by: gene_can_sing on September 16, 2011, 01:26:02 PM
cinematographer... mhm... would that not mean i can see you work in cinemas?

unfortunately all so called cinematographer i know produce for everything but the cinema...   ;D


Cinematography is an art form. Saying it has to appear in the cinema to be called cinematography is like saying paintings are only paintings if they're hung in an art gallery that you pay admission for. Silly.

These days, I actually see a lot more interesting cinematography being done on Vimeo than the actual movies. Of course it's like comparing apples to oranges since films tend to be narrative driven, but from a pure photographic perspective, people are doing some great stuff because of the DSLRs.
Title: Re: A Canon Hollywood Event on November 3, 2011
Post by: DuLt on September 16, 2011, 01:32:07 PM
cinematographer... mhm... would that not mean i can see you work in cinemas?

unfortunately all so called cinematographer i know produce for everything but the cinema...   ;D


Cinematography is an art form. Saying it has to appear in the cinema to be called cinematography is like saying paintings are only paintings if they're hung in an art gallery that you pay admission for. Silly.

These days, I actually see a lot more interesting cinematography being done on Vimeo than the actual movies. Of course it's like comparing apples to oranges since films tend to be narrative driven, but from a pure photographic perspective, people are doing some great stuff because of the DSLRs.

Let's not forget that most hollywood productions are either genre films, cookie cutted from a generic mold or adaptations.
Title: Re: A Canon Hollywood Event on November 3, 2011
Post by: dstppy on September 16, 2011, 04:01:47 PM
Let's not forget that most hollywood productions are either genre films, cookie cutted from a generic mold or adaptations.

Yeah, pretty much.  Anyone who hasn't seen Lawrence of Arabia will get a really eerie feeling when they watch it for the first time like they've seen it every 2 years since it came out with different actors/scenery (never as good).

Blair Witch was something new when it came out, but I think most of us were over the newness about 28 minutes into it  ;D
Title: Re: A Canon Hollywood Event on November 3, 2011
Post by: unfocused on September 16, 2011, 05:57:42 PM
I just received word from a close friend who is in an executive position at Canon that the November announcement will be for the newest version of the Canon Calculator Mouse.

They are inviting all the Hollywood Stars to the event and will be unveiling versions of the new mouse in a variety of designer colors and patterns. They have signed Victoria Beckham to be the new spokesperson for the device and even have a specially designed version called "Vicky Mouse."
Title: Re: A Canon Hollywood Event on November 3, 2011
Post by: NormanBates on September 17, 2011, 05:19:34 AM
oh, and by the way, my hopes for the 5D3 are pretty close to what gene_can_sing said: clean image (no aliasing/moire), better codec (422 XF), better low light (clean ISO 6400), and 1080p60
@NormanBates: As I am currently shooting a 30D saving up for 5Diii:
What would clean ISO 6400 mean compared to my 30D?
Would ISO 25600 on the 5Diii look something like my 30D's H (ISO3200) well exposed to the right or even cleaner?
Thanks in advance. Cheers, Pedro

when you neutralize the increase in resolution, the 5D2 has two stops better low-light than your 30D:
http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Cameras/Compare-Camera-Sensors/Compare-cameras-side-by-side/%28appareil1%29/483|0/%28brand%29/Canon/%28appareil2%29/179|0/%28brand2%29/Canon (http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Cameras/Compare-Camera-Sensors/Compare-cameras-side-by-side/%28appareil1%29/483|0/%28brand%29/Canon/%28appareil2%29/179|0/%28brand2%29/Canon)

the improvement from the 5D to the 5D2 was one stop, so maybe my hopes are not realistic...
http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Cameras/Compare-Camera-Sensors/Compare-cameras-side-by-side/%28appareil1%29/483|0/%28brand%29/Canon/%28appareil2%29/176|0/%28brand2%29/Canon (http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Cameras/Compare-Camera-Sensors/Compare-cameras-side-by-side/%28appareil1%29/483|0/%28brand%29/Canon/%28appareil2%29/176|0/%28brand2%29/Canon)

but on the video side of things everything should be much easier: just switching from the current line-skipping to proper downsampling should deliver a huge reduction in noise
Title: Re: A Canon Hollywood Event on November 3, 2011
Post by: jodym on September 19, 2011, 10:45:57 PM
It may be wishful thinking, but I think it's interesting that three of the eight winners (Jen Berry, Brooke Shaden and Chris Wehner) specifically talk about the Canon 5D MII and how important it is to their work and what a great camera it is in their blogs entries. Another winner talks about how exciting it is to see still photography and motion photography blending. I'm cautiously optimistic.

(I don't know if I'm doing this correctly. This is my first time posting here.)
Title: Re: A Canon Hollywood Event on November 3, 2011
Post by: WhoaGreen on September 23, 2011, 10:54:55 PM
Just for the record this is my guess:
My guess is Canon is going to release a hybrid video/photo camera (or at least video priority) or high resolution cinema quality camera that uses an EF mount, BUT at the same time they're going to announce a new EF mount series. One that is targeted towards video, like lenses with power zoom. I bet that USM technology, the motor used in some lenses for AF, could also be added to the zoom; it would be quick, silent and be passive if older cameras don't support it. It would be named like "EF-Z" for its power-Zoom feature and be oriented towards serious videographers and cinematographers. They might also be able to borrow some of the optical fomulas from there video cameras and put it into an EF lens package(though pretty sure highly unlikely because of sensor size differences). This would all also answer the possible rumor about Canon's "photo and video department merge or working together."

If the above did happen I would consider that "historical".

Edit: I just realized that someone else had said something similar earlier on in this thread.
Title: Re: A Canon Hollywood Event on November 3, 2011
Post by: Meh on September 24, 2011, 12:13:05 AM
Just for the record this is my guess:
My guess is Canon is going to release a hybrid video/photo camera (or at least video priority) or high resolution cinema quality camera that uses an EF mount, BUT at the same time they're going to announce a new EF mount series. One that is targeted towards video, like lenses with power zoom. I bet that USM technology, the motor used in some lenses for AF, could also be added to the zoom; it would be quick, silent and be passive if older cameras don't support it. It would be named like "EF-Z" for its power-Zoom feature and be oriented towards serious videographers and cinematographers. They might also be able to borrow some of the optical fomulas from there video cameras and put it into an EF lens package(though pretty sure highly unlikely because of sensor size differences). This would all also answer the possible rumor about Canon's "photo and video department merge or working together."

If the above did happen I would consider that "historical".

Edit: I just realized that someone else had said something similar earlier on in this thread.

Not sure, but I believe that the optical elements that move during zooming are larger, heavier, move further, and move in more complex ways than do the focusing elements.  If so, the very small and fast moving USM mechanisms might not be effective for moving the zooming elements in a large lens nor would zooming need to be done so quickly.   Power zooming just wouldn't need USM type designs.  Someone else may have better info.