canon rumors FORUM

Rumors => EOS Bodies => Topic started by: Canon Rumors on September 23, 2011, 07:19:14 PM

Title: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: Canon Rumors on September 23, 2011, 07:19:14 PM
What say me? A lot of unknown and exciting things are swirling around that November 3, 2011 announcement in Hollywood. I can tell you truthfully that I have seen just about every possible scenario. What’s true? For the moment I don’t know.

I think EOS will evolve a lot in the coming 12 months, the business of digital SLRs has changed with the advent of video in the segment. I figured I’d offer my opinion on the line partially based on things I’ve been told and things that just make sense to me.

I’ll start at the top of the EOS lineup and work my way down.

By the way, Photokina is next September in Cologne/Koln, Germany. See you there!

*This is NOT fact*

EOS 1D/1Ds I don’t think we’ll see this camera announced until 2012. I also see the amalgamation of the line has highly possible. If Canon has the technology to give big megapixels as well as frame rate. It makes no sense to produce two different bodies. I’m not sure if we’ve seen the last of APS-H, though I think it’s likely. I could see this body in the $5000-$6000 range.

5D Mark III/3D The camera most of the planet wants to see announced and shipped now! I don’t think it’s likely to appear before the end of 2011.

If in 2012 the top tier of cameras is merged, there will be a price gap a 5D3/3D could move up to.  Say, $3500. There could be a lot of advanced video features, big megapixels and an upgraded, but not pro body level AF system. I fully expect Canon to figure out a way to directly monetize the video features of DSLRs.

When? I’ve heard anytime between tomorrow and Photokina 2012.

6D One of the recent rumors has been the coming of a new full frame EOS body added to the lineup. It would be in the $2000 range. It would see a drop in megapixels from the 21 of the 5D Mark II and be solely designed for ISO performance. To meet the price point, I’d expect a modified 9 point AF (more crosstype sensors).

If the 5D3 moves up the latter in performance and price, a $2000 full frame camera at launch would be an industry first and a massive seller. Canon was the first company to break the $1000 price barrier with a DSLR, no reason they can’t do it again.

I can definitely see this as a possibility, though I’m not convinced of it yet.

*correction* The full frame Sony A850 launched at $2000 USD. Thanks for pointing it out.

7D Mark II I think the 7D will make it all the way through 2012 and into 2013. What is there to improve on the camera? How do you really make it better enough to justify a new model? If Canon is spending a lot of resources on developing 3 new full frame sensors, I could see APS-C remaining relatively unchanged.

The biggest upgrade I think to the 7D will be a price drop over the next 12 months.

60D As with the 7D, there’s really no need to upgrade this camera. It will only be 2 years come Photokina, and the cycle of camera updates is slowing down.

It’s a good little camera that sells well. I think we’ll see it last into 2013.

T3i/T3 More of the same here (a bit boring eh), I don’t see a new rebel in 2012 either. A domino in the APS-C line will have to fall before they all get an update. Using the same sensor in the 3 cameras is probably great for the bottom line. I can’t see them abandoning that mindset.

Mirrorless When Canon announces a mirrorless system, I think it’s going to be a standalone product. So it won’t be EF or EF-S compatible. I see Canon launching a unique product to their line, not more of the same. I think the low end of mirrorless cameras is a crowded world, especially with the rainbow of cameras Nikon just announced. So why add another bunch of cameras to the segment? I think the gold mine for Canon is convincing the North American market to buy a mirrorless camera. Their mirrorless camera. So it’s going to have to be different.

To be honest, I really have no great hypothesis of what they’re going to do. It’s something I’d have to think more on.

So that’s it, as of today, that’s the way I see the EOS lineup going. It’s based on some information I’ve received as well as some opinion.

cr

Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: ions on September 23, 2011, 07:28:59 PM
Lucid, rational and intelligent. Very well thought out and I completely agree. Let's hope Canon is as smart.
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: Edwin Herdman on September 23, 2011, 07:30:37 PM
I'm horribly tempted to just write "yeah ok" at this point...
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: alipaulphotography on September 23, 2011, 07:30:43 PM
Interesting thoughts.
I imagine much of the same. Just wish canon would be fighting for innovation rather than max profit.

The world is waiting on a 5D MK III and I really hope it isnt an anti climax. 6D does sounds very appealing also!
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: YoukY63 on September 23, 2011, 08:09:54 PM
I disagree on almost every point, but hey, that's why it is called a personal opinion.  ;)

1D: I don't see them being merged. They are professional tools, not intended to the same people. And as every tool, they are made for a special job. So stop one of them and you make a lot of pro users very unhappy. Furthermore, if they are really merging, why the price would be closer to the cheaper model? If it become a double side knife, it would probably cost more than a previous single side one. :P

5D3: I expect it for Photokina 2012. No emergency to release it earlier. Still great sells, and no opponents.

3D: a cheaper FF camera is highly possible. We have a huge wolrd crisis, offering a cheaper option is always welcome and a smart move from companies. But if so, it would just be a cheap made 5DII: same sensor, same AF, plastic body. Maybe EVF?

7DII: after 1Ds, that is probably the most urgent body to replace! Others company released (Sony a77) or will release soon (Pentax, Nikon) new cameras with higher specs. I insist very much on the word "new", because it is usually the most important word for people buying a camera (we see here every day people telling they won't buy a 5DII because it is "old" while they is no new competitor, what would happen if there were a recent competitor?  ::))

60D: will be replaced in 6 months, as usually (every 18 months). Maybe it can be pushed until next Photokina (Sept.)

600D: to not replace it next year means to kill the sells and incomes. These entry bodies need to be replaced frequently (cf my "new" comment earlier). So it will be replaced next January/February as usually. Then, which sensor? Still the same? For the 3rd time? I don't think so. That's why it will push Canon to replace the higher model 7D earlier too.
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: Canon Rumors on September 23, 2011, 08:23:50 PM
I appreciate the disagreement, however. Canon is not releasing 6 new DSLRs in the next 12 months.

One of the biggest reasons is the economy of the planet at the moment. That's why I think the APS-C cameras will be left alone, they're the cameras people buy with disposable income.

Good points though.
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: Bob Howland on September 23, 2011, 08:42:20 PM
I have a couple problems with your FF predictions.

1. A reduction in pixel count and a heavy emphasis on DR and high ISO image quality are not things that would be highly valued by buyers of an entry level FF camera. These attributes, however, would be highly valued by wedding photographers and those of us addicted to photography in ridiculously low light levels. And these buyers would also want a body that is more durable and more sophisticated than entry level, and less expensive than a 1D-class body.

2. If the 5D2 vs. 1DsMk3 fiasco proved anything, it is that people will buy a very high resolution sensor in a prosumer class body. There is simply no reason why the highest resolution body in the lineup also has to be the most expensive.
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: aaronofnero on September 23, 2011, 09:01:14 PM
well, i would imagine this all plays into competition as well as furthering their current roster. it would be a bit of a stretch, but I feel like (at least from what I see in my industry and prior schooling - amidst consumers) that Canon may be willing to release products simply in a possible attempt to slightly one-up other companies so to speak (and not just Nikon).

Keep in mind, I am speaking hypothetically, and this sense of logic is more from my ass than any serious survey of business policy. I'm new to this game.

what if, and I use "if" very strongly as i have no real foundation for this assessment, Canon decided to release a camera the competes directly with a level designated to a hierarchy of competitive gear - both video and photo specified.   

Canon's version of Hasselblad's H4D line. a high end medium format camera specifically dedicated to the professional studio / model photographer.

Canon's version of a Red Epic / Sony F65 / Arri Alexa. video dedicated camera, sized in moderation and weight, with everything anyone could expect out of a film-dedicated camera. I understand Canon has a broadcast line, but I really don't know where that would continue to go.

Canon's version of a Red Scarlet / Red One MX / Sony PMW-F3 / Sony FS100 / Panasonic AF100. Now this is a pretty big price range amidst these suggestions, but I wouldn't expect Canon to necessarily step to 25k or stoop as low as 5k for a mid-level pro camera / camcorder. Maybe this could even be two separate categories? Although i wouldn't expect Canon to really get that diversified in their line for just video intent. Maybe the 5dmk3 will compete with the FS100 market, maintaining the EF mount, and then a PL mount video camera to compete with Red One / Sony F3.

I imagine the 1D/1Dsmk4 would stick to appealing to the sports photographers, with the video as a mild bonus. Maybe step up their game along side whatever may be anticipated for a Nikon D4.

By and large I could see a 6D / 3D being an additional item that maybe excels above the 7D in video, but still keeps the pro-photographer in mind. Much like what you mentioned as well, something that really pushes ISO with a small megapixel count.  3D maybe being a more video focused and a 6D more photo focused? or vice versa? i don't really know

as for the remainder of the line, I see that sort of continuing as you had already mentioned.. 7dmk2, t4i, 70d, whatever they may be called. those seem to have set-price margins that consumers who have a certain income or amount of money they can optionally spend on a camera will stand by. With this, i'd assume there to be little advances here and there, but nothing too insane.  Just improvements to quality and character of each line. I could see upgraded chips, but sensor sizes to remain the same. there are probably only so many ways to upgrade a camera within the same price point. People generally always want what's new, even if the only upgrade is a shiny new shell. Look at the way cars are updated every year. People who trade in their 2011 Mercedes for a 2012 model, that might have a nicer aerodynamic look. not saying this correlates directly, but I don't see how it would hurt sales to replace models with similar interiors or functionality if they stay at the same price point.

eh i don't really know. just what i would assume a company who wants to attempt to grow and dominate a market would take steps towards. my ideas tend to be outlandish, but I suppose that's what makes curiosity fun and painful haha
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: AJ on September 23, 2011, 10:58:16 PM
I think the digic5 will make it into one or more of the dslrs this year.  Probably enough of a change to go from 600D to 650D.  I wonder what bells and whistles the digic5 will enable for video.

As for new sensors, I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: Manwithacamera on September 23, 2011, 11:52:02 PM
I hope, information about 5D Mark III is going to leak soon like iPhone 4. 8)
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: Zuuyi on September 23, 2011, 11:52:54 PM
Tommorow - 12 Months
November 3rd, 2011
5Dmk3 - Welcome to Hollywod. Same Full Frame. Digic V. No More Megapixels, we don't need them.  Big push is in Video. And for god's sake no Rotating Screen.   If you can afford this camera you can get a secondary screen for video; and for on the go photographer's the screen is the weakest point. Cycle says 2011; 3 years 1 month
which is November 2011(sounds familiar).  * Edit - And the fact that Red is having an annoucement the same day says High End  EOS & Video. Which Screams 5d3 to me*

Jan - Feb 2012
1Dmk5 - Olympics. Speed. Speed. Speed. 4 year cycle says 2011. But I think early 2012.  Plus the current one is Digic 3 and that needs to be updated. Canon loves those huge L Lenses at sporting events; so they will release it Jan-Feb 2012 so they can update before June.

Feb - Mar 2012
7Dmk2 & T4i - I think they will be released at the same time Digic 5 of course. 7d going even further in the Video world. Feb-Mar 2012

13-24 months

January 2013
1DsmkIV - No rush but it is the flagship for studio photographers. 40 Megapixels, and not a pixel less. January 2013.

Feb - Mar 2013
T5i - Like Clockwork. The income sheet needs it's annual boost. Feb-Mar 2013

Summer - Fall 2013
60mkII - Updated; time for the 7dmk2 to sell.  Getting T2i, T3i, and T4i owners to upgrade for some more advanced video options. Summer - Fall 2013.

I don't see a 3d or 6d being released anytime soon.  They need to clean up the lines not add more. 
They offer 13 DSLR models.  They need to compact that list.  Plus I don't see them using "3d" unless it's 3-D.

My wish is the list being compacted to
1Ds - 5 Year Cycle  $7000
1D - 4 Year Cycle - $5000
5D - 3 Year Cycle - $2500
7D - 2 Year Cycle - $1500
XXD - 18 Month Cycle - $1000
XXXD - 1 Year Cycle - $750
XXXXD - 6 Month Cycle - $500

 




Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: Meh on September 24, 2011, 12:38:52 AM
1D: I don't see them being merged. They are professional tools, not intended to the same people. And as every tool, they are made for a special job. So stop one of them and you make a lot of pro users very unhappy. Furthermore, if they are really merging, why the price would be closer to the cheaper model? If it become a double side knife, it would probably cost more than a previous single side one. :P

Neither group of pros would be unhappy with a merged 1D provided that it did everything that each of the split lines do.  So if Canon has the technology to have a FF high megapixel camera that can do 10 fps then both groups are happy.  The price would be lower because now they are designing and manufacturing only 1 body with the combined sales volume.
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: UncleFester on September 24, 2011, 01:14:03 AM
A 5DIII probably will not go above $2500 USD. 2500 is the bang-for-buck cut-off point.
Also, 5Ders most likely will not want to pay $2000 for a sub-par FF.


Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: Bokehmon on September 24, 2011, 01:18:52 AM
Tommorow - 12 Months
November 3rd, 2011
5Dmk3 - Welcome to Hollywod. Same Full Frame. Digic V. No More Megapixels, we don't need them.  Big push is in Video. And for god's sake no Rotating Screen.   If you can afford this camera you can get a secondary screen for video; and for on the go photographer's the screen is the weakest point. Cycle says 2011; 3 years 1 month
which is November 2011(sounds familiar).  * Edit - And the fact that Red is having an annoucement the same day says High End  EOS & Video. Which Screams 5d3 to me*

Jan - Feb 2012
1Dmk5 - Olympics. Speed. Speed. Speed. 4 year cycle says 2011. But I think early 2012.  Plus the current one is Digic 3 and that needs to be updated. Canon loves those huge L Lenses at sporting events; so they will release it Jan-Feb 2012 so they can update before June.

Feb - Mar 2012
7Dmk2 & T4i - I think they will be released at the same time Digic 5 of course. 7d going even further in the Video world. Feb-Mar 2012

13-24 months

January 2013
1DsmkIV - No rush but it is the flagship for studio photographers. 40 Megapixels, and not a pixel less. January 2013.

Feb - Mar 2013
T5i - Like Clockwork. The income sheet needs it's annual boost. Feb-Mar 2013

Summer - Fall 2013
60mkII - Updated; time for the 7dmk2 to sell.  Getting T2i, T3i, and T4i owners to upgrade for some more advanced video options. Summer - Fall 2013.

I don't see a 3d or 6d being released anytime soon.  They need to clean up the lines not add more. 
They offer 13 DSLR models.  They need to compact that list.  Plus I don't see them using "3d" unless it's 3-D.

My wish is the list being compacted to
1Ds - 5 Year Cycle  $7000
1D - 4 Year Cycle - $5000
5D - 3 Year Cycle - $2500
7D - 2 Year Cycle - $1500
XXD - 18 Month Cycle - $1000
XXXD - 1 Year Cycle - $750
XXXXD - 6 Month Cycle - $500

 

I don't really see those life cycles being so long. 1DIV is also dual digic 4 not 3. Also, how are there 13 models being offered? If you really see what's in stock you'll see that there's only the 1D, 5DII, 7D, 60D, 600D, and the crappy low end one. that's like 6 models.
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: Zuuyi on September 24, 2011, 01:48:28 AM
I don't really see those life cycles being so long. 1DIV is also dual digic 4 not 3. Also, how are there 13 models being offered? If you really see what's in stock you'll see that there's only the 1D, 5DII, 7D, 60D, 600D, and the crappy low end one. that's like 6 models.

I wrote the wrong processor on the 1Dmk4.  I included the Rebels in my count. The only XXD or XD I can really see added is a 4k EOS Video Camera my thought would be a 4d or 7dN (Depending on price point).  Two Studio Cameras (1DS & 5D), Two Field Cameras (1D & 7D), and a Prosumer Camera(60D).

But they really need to upgrade the 1D; because it's a hard sell over the 7D $3300 more for 2 FPS and a pro body.
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: J. McCabe on September 24, 2011, 02:04:03 AM
Jan - Feb 2012
1Dmk5 - Olympics. Speed. Speed. Speed. 4 year cycle says 2011. But I think early 2012.  Plus the current one is Digic 3 and that needs to be updated. Canon loves those huge L Lenses at sporting events; so they will release it Jan-Feb 2012 so they can update before June.

My thoughts exactly - that Canon would like to have a new body, as well as the new 500mm & 600mm lenses, out in time for the Summer Olympics in July-August 2012.

I wouldn't be surprised if the 7Dmk2 came out in time for the olympics as well.


60mkII - Updated; time for the 7dmk2 to sell.  Getting T2i, T3i, and T4i owners to upgrade for some more advanced video options. Summer - Fall 2013.

I would think this one would be named 70D.


My impression is Canon's high end cameras need an updates, so I wouldn't be surprised if some of the rest of the cameras would be updated in 2013.

E.g. the 18 months cycle would have a 70D late 2011 / early 2012, I wouldn't be surprised if Canon waited to late 2013 to give it the 7Dmk2's sensor, with similar logic applied to the 700D.

The 1000D took almost three years to upgrade, I wouldn't be surprised if the 1100D took 2+ years to upgrade.
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: Mark D5 TEAM II on September 24, 2011, 03:39:52 AM
Based on all the rumors so far, I still see a paper launch of at least one FF DSLR before the year ends, with availability early next year. 1Ds4 vaporware would solidify just before London 2012. EOS dash 3 D is a very feasible name for another FF body if 5D3 becomes the lower-end FF since there was an EOS-3 (the only other hyphenated EOS aside from the EOS-1) and it was essentially a vertical grip-less EOS-1 with 45-pt. Eye-Controlled Focus. If some people are afraid that it would get confused with a "3-dimensional picture-taking" camera then they're obviously not the target-market (n00bs who never shot film SLRs like the EOS-3 that kicked the crap out of the F4, F5 & F6). :P

6D or 9D would be the FF Rebel at ~$1500.
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: spam on September 24, 2011, 04:03:29 AM
If Digic V really is as big upgrade as Canon wants us to believe then I'd also expect them to upgrade all dSLRs fairly soon, at least mid to high end. I'd guess that Digic V is at least one of the key components that has kept Canon from 1Ds and 5D upgrades, and now it's ready, at least the digicam version.

Another factor is sensors which obviously haven't been up to Sony's level since the D7000/K5 (etc) sensor came out. Hopefully Canon has managed to get the read noise doen too, and combinedwith Digic V we'll hopefully see some really standout models from Canon again.

Mirrorless: My guess is something with bigger sensor than Nikon, but maybe not as big as 1.6 crop. 2x crop like m4/3 seems like a good compromize to me, but it really could be anything. Good compatibility with EF/EF-S is important IMO, even extremely important. Nikon has really set the standard there whith phase detect on the sensor. I'm not sure that Canon mirrorless customer will actually use their current lenses, but it's really important  as a customer loyalty and sales argument.
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: Ivar on September 24, 2011, 04:42:29 AM
Tommorow - 12 Months

Jan - Feb 2012
1Dmk5 - Olympics. Speed. Speed. Speed. 4 year cycle says 2011. But I think early 2012.  Plus the current one is Digic 3 and that needs to be updated. Canon loves those huge L Lenses at sporting events; so they will release it Jan-Feb 2012 so they can update before June.

You have mixed things up - the 1D Mk4 is currently 2 years old, with DIGIC 4.

But I think it is correct that it will be replaced before the traditional 3 years cycle this time, as soon as Nikon D4 is released. My bet includes also going to FF.

Quote
13-24 months

January 2013
1DsmkIV - No rush but it is the flagship for studio photographers. 40 Megapixels, and not a pixel less. January 2013.

Again, it depends very much what Nikon is up to with the D3x successor. I'd imagine though it is going to be updated rather earlier as it is not even much competitior to the current Nikon D3x. So I predict that the release is rather close to the release of the 1D Mk5, at the latest for Photokina next year.

All that means I belive the merging of 1D & 1Ds will not take place this time, but the 1D moves to FF.
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: Mark D5 TEAM II on September 24, 2011, 05:36:29 AM
Keith Cooper's take:  ;D

Quote
Speculation time ...I note that there is a similar list at CR, and since I disagree with many of their thoughts, I thought I'd put up my own thoughts (so BIG pinch of salt required)

    1Ds4 - to launch this year
    1D5 - no merger yet. Maybe a new 1D mark 5 in 2012, with internals based on 1Ds4 (Digic V) - limited availability for the Olympics
    5D3 - a Photokina 2012 camera
    7D2 - late 2012/early 2013 - new higher MP sensor and faster
    70D - 2013
    650D - 2012 (similar sensor but Digic V)
    and some wild cards...
    3D - destined to remain in 'Fabled' status for quite some time
    6D, 8D, 9D - more potential model numbers
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: Canon Rumors on September 24, 2011, 07:34:43 AM
Keith Cooper's take:  ;D

Quote
Speculation time ...I note that there is a similar list at CR, and since I disagree with many of their thoughts, I thought I'd put up my own thoughts (so BIG pinch of salt required)

    1Ds4 - to launch this year
    1D5 - no merger yet. Maybe a new 1D mark 5 in 2012, with internals based on 1Ds4 (Digic V) - limited availability for the Olympics
    5D3 - a Photokina 2012 camera
    7D2 - late 2012/early 2013 - new higher MP sensor and faster
    70D - 2013
    650D - 2012 (similar sensor but Digic V)
    and some wild cards...
    3D - destined to remain in 'Fabled' status for quite some time
    6D, 8D, 9D - more potential model numbers

We're pretty close other than the EOS-1s, Keith wants a 1Ds Mark IV pretty badly... perhaps he can will it to happen!

My mind will probably change in the next month when the real leaks start to happen about November 3.
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: Babarous on September 24, 2011, 07:36:10 AM
Quote
"If the 5D3 moves up the latter in performance and price, a $2000 full frame camera at launch would be an industry first and a massive seller. Canon was the first company to break the $1000 price barrier with a DSLR, no reason they can’t do it again."



What the heck? A850 was full frame and under $2000 at launch date.
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: Canon Rumors on September 24, 2011, 08:13:42 AM
Quote
"If the 5D3 moves up the latter in performance and price, a $2000 full frame camera at launch would be an industry first and a massive seller. Canon was the first company to break the $1000 price barrier with a DSLR, no reason they can’t do it again."



What the heck? A850 was full frame and under $2000 at launch date.

You're right, I forget Sony exists. The correction has been posted.
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: Sebmour on September 24, 2011, 08:46:20 AM
I always find it funny when people talk bad about the AF system of the 5DII. The centre point is the best on the market. The rest are a little useless unless under good light. (I have tracked Nascar coming towards me in Montreal, Canada with my 200 f2LIS)

The AF on my 1D4 is junk in low light. As soon as I pass 3200 ISO...my AF will not lock on lower contrast subject while my 5DII will lock on right away. The D3 series locks on without any issues also. (This has been tested in my home under the same condition for all 3 cameras)

Just to point out...since people will have a hard time believing my fact above, I shoot 1D4, 5DII, 24LII, 35L, 50 1.4, 85LII, 135L, 200LIS. In both cameras I use the S type focusing screen.

I have email Canon CPS...still awaiting a reply after 2 weeks!

I am hoping for a 5DIII.
I am wishing for a FF of 24MP, ISO 6400 clean like ISO 1600 (on 5DII), Same center point AF but better side points AF. Same Battery, 100% viewfinder with a good magnification, improvement on weather sealing (rubber gasket instead of foam), same ergonomics, same IQ (this is the hard part), 5FPS, Full HD 24, 30 and 60 FPS with a better rendering. This would be perfect for me and I would pay 3500-4000$ for such a camera.

I am also wishing for an APS-H Ef mount camcorder. Full HD, 24, 30, 60, 120 FPS, B&W viewfinder, XLR sound connectors, Integrated ND's, Zebra, Focus assist, full HD monitor output, 4" LCD screen for focus puller. I would pay 4000-5000$ for such a camcorder.

ENjoy the day!
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: Gothmoth on September 24, 2011, 09:26:44 AM
i think canon will of course make an adapter for EF lenses to their mirrorless system.
i see no reason why they should not.
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: sandro on September 24, 2011, 10:04:44 AM
They should just stop using this 3y cycle for products that just leaves old products around where the competition advances. They should release a NEW revolutionary product NOW, I don't care when the previous model was released.
I care for video mainly and the video part is so so so prehistoric.
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: bvukich on September 24, 2011, 01:01:47 PM
You're right, I forget Sony exists. The correction has been posted.

Don't feel bad, it's relatively easy to do.

I don't know if I have a case of "pick on the new kid" or not, but I just don't see any compelling argument to buy into the Sony ecosphere (or lack thereof).

Canon, Nikon, even Pentax; I can see the benefits to each, depending on where you're coming from, and where you're headed.  Sony, not so much.  They make some good sensors, but I think Nikon does a better job of wrapping a camera around them than Sony themselves.  Plus Nikon, like Canon, actually has an ecosphere.  Sony has minimal third party support, and only recently could you even rent lenses anywhere.

I'm admittedly biased against the Sony the parent company, and have a smoldering hatred for some of their subsidiaries; but I'll gladly give credit where credit is due.  I'm just not confident they're in it for the long haul.  That being said, I do hope they are.  More competition is ALWAYS better for the customer.  And if nothing else, they will (and probably already have) drive Canon and Nikon to release better products at a faster pace.
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: pedro on September 24, 2011, 01:13:55 PM
I am hoping for a 5DIII.
I am wishing for a FF of 24MP, ISO 6400 clean like ISO 1600 (on 5DII), Same center point AF but better side points AF. Same Battery, 100% viewfinder with a good magnification, improvement on weather sealing (rubber gasket instead of foam), same ergonomics, same IQ (this is the hard part), 5FPS, Full HD 24, 30 and 60 FPS with a better rendering. This would be perfect for me and I would pay 3500-4000$ for such a camera.

@Sebmour: I do not understand a lot of tech. So given your inmense knowledge you get very easily to an actual calculation for a 5Diii according to that. My only question is: If that was real, wouldn't it come to a real gap in pricing between a next lower 7D? Your draft leaves room for a 6D in the US $ 2000-2500 segment then. If such a body was aimed towards lesser MP and equal ISO performance, lesser video facilities (which never will use, once going back FF after 30 years) I'll buy that day one.  8) Cheers, Pedro
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: x-vision on September 24, 2011, 01:49:39 PM
I think EOS will evolve a lot in the coming 12 months, the business of digital SLRs has changed with the advent of video in the segment. I figured I’d offer my opinion on the line partially based on things I’ve been told and things that just make sense to me.

Some of your points make a lot of sense but I also have different views on others.

A merged 1-series (1DV)
I find it strange that this camera is not out yet.
Canon, the pioneer of large DSLR sensors, currently does not have a pro FF model on the market - after the 1DsIII has been officially discontinued in some countries (e.g. Canada) and unofficially discontinued in others.

6D
With a merged 1-series, it is very likely that we'll see two FF models positioned under the king of the hill.
If I was working for Canon marketing, the 5-series will be split into a 5DIII ($2500) and a little 1-series ($4000).
The little 1-series camera will be basically the 1-series but without the integrated grip and some other minor differences.

7DII, 70D, etc.
The business of DSLRs has changed indeed.
With the D7000 and the A77/Nex-7, the price point of the 'enthusiast' class of cameras has moved down to $1200.
At the same time, we see mirrorless eating at the bottom of the DSLR market.
I thus expect some major changes of the non-FF lineup.
Canon needs an ultra-compact Rebel (if not mirrorless) and an appealing $1200 offering.
This will affect all 1.6x models. Can't predict at this time what will happen but I see re-alignments in all three model lines - Rebel, xxD, and 7D. 
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: Meh on September 24, 2011, 01:54:11 PM
More competition is ALWAYS better for the customer.  And if nothing else, they will (and probably already have) drive Canon and Nikon to release better products at a faster pace.

Absolutely!
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: chardinej on September 24, 2011, 08:00:32 PM
I disagree on one point. I shoot the 1DIV in a less-than-semi-professional capacity. I would like nothing more than a mirrorless body to fit on a super-tele that would lighten the load hugely, give me say 20-30 fps, FF at 20-30 mp and be ultrafast at autofocusing and processing the images. My 1DIV is the size and weight it is to allow a mirror to flap up and down at a rate that will get me 10fps. Get rid of all that overhead and you are left with a mirrorless, pro body. That's what Canon should produce.
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: Zuuyi on September 24, 2011, 08:20:54 PM
I want a FF under 2k. $1999 is a lot easier to pay then $2500.
I don't care about FPS.  I want a portrait/wedding standard.  But I just don't see it happening.  I don't want crop but I don't need a 5d3.  It's hard to justify such a camera.  I'm sorry I will  pay 2000 instead of the 3200 5d kit price; and get the Tamron 25-75/1.8, Sigma 1.4, and still have $200 in my pocket.
But it's likely I will just have to buy a 5D2 because it will still be a Great camera when the 5d3 comes out. 

I'm hoping for a $2000 price point for the 5d3 (not likely); for the mythical 3d to get a 3500 price point a some space in the price range. This would make the 7d a prosumer sports shooter and the 5d3 would get more people who planned on the 7d to move up.

I just don't see a 6d showing up in the line up (even though I want it); and I don't see a purpose for a 2-4d; what professional need is missing that will fall in the 2500-5000 price point.  Only one I see is a Camera that does 4k to fight against Red.
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: niccyboy on September 24, 2011, 10:35:35 PM
Would love the 5dmk3 to pop up for a release soon, I currently operate with a few mk2s and a 7d, and just hate that 5d focus, and 7d's poor low light and weak colours... besides that they are still good units.

I also was an early adopter of hdslr video, with rigs, follow focuses etc, and have since changed to Sony Nex VG10s due to the ergonomics, audio quality, autofocus, and ability to put eos adapters on it. So an EOS mount video camera would be snapped up immediately.

I almost went up to the 1d recently but decided to get another body to run a short and long lens simultaneously as i couldnt justify the extra cost vs the features. I think Canon are shooting themselves in the foot if they don't put a bigger gap between the 5dmk3 and the 1d's.

my 2 cents!
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: photogaz on September 25, 2011, 05:21:54 AM
6D - Haha, there's no way in hell Canon would release another 9 type auto focus system - It's TOO dated!
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: jimmy156 on September 25, 2011, 09:13:50 AM
Tommorow - 12 Months
November 3rd, 2011
5Dmk3 - Welcome to Hollywod. Same Full Frame. Digic V. No More Megapixels, we don't need them.  Big push is in Video. And for god's sake no Rotating Screen.   If you can afford this camera you can get a secondary screen for video; and for on the go photographer's the screen is the weakest point. Cycle says 2011; 3 years 1 month
which is November 2011(sounds familiar).  * Edit - And the fact that Red is having an annoucement the same day says High End  EOS & Video. Which Screams 5d3 to me*

Jan - Feb 2012
1Dmk5 - Olympics. Speed. Speed. Speed. 4 year cycle says 2011. But I think early 2012.  Plus the current one is Digic 3 and that needs to be updated. Canon loves those huge L Lenses at sporting events; so they will release it Jan-Feb 2012 so they can update before June.

Feb - Mar 2012
7Dmk2 & T4i - I think they will be released at the same time Digic 5 of course. 7d going even further in the Video world. Feb-Mar 2012

13-24 months

January 2013
1DsmkIV - No rush but it is the flagship for studio photographers. 40 Megapixels, and not a pixel less. January 2013.

Feb - Mar 2013
T5i - Like Clockwork. The income sheet needs it's annual boost. Feb-Mar 2013

Summer - Fall 2013
60mkII - Updated; time for the 7dmk2 to sell.  Getting T2i, T3i, and T4i owners to upgrade for some more advanced video options. Summer - Fall 2013.

I don't see a 3d or 6d being released anytime soon.  They need to clean up the lines not add more. 
They offer 13 DSLR models.  They need to compact that list.  Plus I don't see them using "3d" unless it's 3-D.

My wish is the list being compacted to
1Ds - 5 Year Cycle  $7000
1D - 4 Year Cycle - $5000
5D - 3 Year Cycle - $2500
7D - 2 Year Cycle - $1500
XXD - 18 Month Cycle - $1000
XXXD - 1 Year Cycle - $750
XXXXD - 6 Month Cycle - $500

 

I don't really see those life cycles being so long. 1DIV is also dual digic 4 not 3. Also, how are there 13 models being offered? If you really see what's in stock you'll see that there's only the 1D, 5DII, 7D, 60D, 600D, and the crappy low end one. that's like 6 models.

O/T but this attitude irritates me. I know everyone here will be a gear/tech freak, but that doesent make low end camera's "crappy" This shot for example was taken with an 1000d and 18-55 kit lens... and was highly commended in the prestigous wildlife photographer of the year award.

(http://www.nhm.ac.uk/resources-www/visit-us/whats-on/temporary-exhibitions/swpy/2010/popup/92.jpg)
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: goodmane on September 25, 2011, 09:43:25 AM
Sounds reasonable. I just hope Canon bring out a full frame camera with a built-in flash like Nikon D700 as well as movie mode. Otherwise I might as well ditch my SLR system as I currently use my Canon G9/smartphone for loads of video and unfortunately my 5D stays at home for weeks gathering dust.

With a built-in flash and movie mode I would consider holding off purchase of micro 4/3 or Fuji x100 or waiting for Canon equivalent, and maybe just buy a small 35mm prime.

I would also dearly love to replace my large 24-70L f2.8 with a 24-70 f4 L that was half the size but still had good bokeh and distortion as opposed to the not so great and still fairly large (in my opinion) 24-105L.
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: Meh on September 25, 2011, 10:27:45 AM

O/T but this attitude irritates me. I know everyone here will be a gear/tech freak, but that doesent make low end camera's "crappy" This shot for example was taken with an 1000d and 18-55 kit lens... and was highly commended in the prestigous wildlife photographer of the year award.


That's right, and great photo by the way.  Please realize that most people on this forum do know that great photos can be taken with "crappy" cameras.  Very cool photos can be taken with camera phones which most people, including pro photographers, carry around with them.  Most gearheads on this site also have a P&S but probably a pretty good one rather than a crappy one :)

You do touch on a good point.  There is a tendency to begin referring to anything less than the best available or even an ideal soon-to-be-announced camera to be "crappy".  The 7D has been called crappy.  The 5D2 focus has been called crappy.  Etc.  Well, that's just not true in absolute terms... comparatively, there might be some other camera that does a slightly better job at a particular feature but suddenly it's as if there's a night and day difference.  The Sony sensor in the Nikon D7000 had an extra stop of DR at low ISO and suddenly every other camera out there is crap, outdated, etc.  Nonsense.

To be fair, there are many pundits on here for focusing on real world image quality so there's a balance in the discussions.  No one feature or attribute is the best in all situations.  That's not to say each new feature or attribute isn't important.  They all are under certain situations.  Sports shooters need high frame rates, landscape photographers do not.  Everyone can benefit from higher DR at times but not every scene has even 10 stops of DR and in fact some photos look better with less DR so the photographer will clip the shadow details in photoshop to get more contrast and many other examples.

Gear is good.  Technology is good.  And it's cool when camera manufacturers give us something that hasn't been possible in the past.  Every camera has it's use from an iPhone all the way to a 1D4 and medium format.  Film is good so is digital... they each have different benefits and limitations.

It's fun.  No need for anyone to be offended or irritated except if anyone is rude or disrespectful to others and those trolls know who they are.  :)

Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: Woody on September 25, 2011, 11:58:46 AM
I seriously doubt Canon will commit commercial suicide by NOT releasing an update to any of their APS-C camera. New/updates for 1D/5D/3D/6D all sound nice and dandy but represent only a small fraction of Canon's income source. They must be seriously stupid if they shy away from mirrorless bodies... especially since every major player has already released a mirrorless camera except Canon.
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: Woody on September 25, 2011, 12:09:49 PM

The business of DSLRs has changed indeed.
With the D7000 and the A77/Nex-7, the price point of the 'enthusiast' class of cameras has moved down to $1200.
At the same time, we see mirrorless eating at the bottom of the DSLR market.
I thus expect some major changes of the non-FF lineup.
Canon needs an ultra-compact Rebel (if not mirrorless) and an appealing $1200 offering.
This will affect all 1.6x models. Can't predict at this time what will happen but I see re-alignments in all three model lines - Rebel, xxD, and 7D.

My thoughts exactly.
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: foobar on September 25, 2011, 12:17:07 PM
My take on "What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina":

Overall I don't think we'll see many surprises, mainly incremental updates except for the 1Ds.
I'd love to see Canon playing with some new concepts (hybrid viewfinder anyone?) but Canon seems to be pretty conservative in that regard.


EOS 1D/1Ds
I think a fast FF camera is overdue and I also think that APS-H is on it's way out. I've said this before and I know that some people think differently about the topic, but Nikon upped the game with the D3 and it's Canons turn to catch up - but now they'll have to compete with the upcoming D4. Also, we can expect Canon's new processor to be fast enough to allow for high speed and high resolution at the same time.

To please the current APS-H shooters, I could imagine Canon offering an APS-H crop-mode, probably in combination with an LCD viewfinder overlay (they could show the outline or even completely black out the unused parts of the frame). I also think that they'll continue to sell the 1D4 as long as there's demand for it.


5DIII/3D/6D

There will be a 5DIII.
If there will be a cheaper FF camera, I'm pretty sure it will be the 5DIII and not a 6D or something like that. I'm still of the opinion that the 5D series is Canon's "cheap FF" series. What would you do to make the 5D2 cheaper? Plastic body? Penta mirror VF? Worse AF? Slower FPS? Not really. Feature-wise the 5D2 already plays in the same league as the XXD series (before the 60D), so the next step would be to make it the "FF rebel". I don't think we want Canon to go there.

Anyway, I think the most likely scenario is that the 5DIII is simply an evolutionary upgrade to the 5DII. Better AF, new sensor, new processor, a lot of new software features. I don't expect any surprise moves from Canon.


7D Mark II
Might get launched at Photokina 2012 but not before that.


70D
No idea, really. We'll probably either see this or the 7D2 at Photokina (with the other camera being released in 2013).


650D
Will probably be released as a minor update to the 600D in early 2012. It will probably just switch to Digic 5 and add a few minor features like video AF (similar to Nikon). In the entry-level camera class this has become almost like fashion. Every manufacturer needs something new each year, so consumers don't think they're buying "old tech".
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: Meh on September 25, 2011, 12:42:31 PM
EOS 1D/1Ds
Also, we can expect Canon's new processor to be fast enough to allow for high speed and high resolution at the same time.

To please the current APS-H shooters, I could imagine Canon offering an APS-H crop-mode


I think your first statement above is correct and makes APS-H mode unnecessary... the 16MP APS-H sensor size was a compromise between pixel density, large enough pixels to get good SNR, and ability to process at 10fps.  The Sony A77 is processing 12fps at 24MP so that should give us an indication that DIGIC5 or dual DIGIC5 should be able to process 10fps at about 28MP (the APS-H sensor scaled up to FF) or higher.  So the only reason to implement crop mode now would be to achieve something like 20fps which probably isn't necessary but could be nice to have I suppose (not that there's any reason to think they could get the mirror up to that speed).

In a top line camera that can sell for top dollar, they can put in a huge buffer to give as many shots as they want at full resolution 10-12 fps.
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: Bob Howland on September 25, 2011, 01:41:25 PM
I always have problems differentiating between what I want and what I think will happen, but here goes

1D/1Ds - 1D4 continues unchanged. 1Ds4 introduced during October or November with 27MP FF, 8FPS and two Digic 5 processors at a price of $5500. The 1Ds4 sensor is essentially the 1D4 sensor enlarged to FF and heavily revised, meaning that Canon sets the 1D4 and 1Ds4 against each other in the marketplace. The 1Ds4 and 7D2 (see below) kill off the 1D4 within a year.

6D/3D/9D (pick your number) - Also introduced during this October or November. Approx 16MP FF sensor with outstanding high ISO image quality and DR. The body is not entry level. Rather it is the "small professional body" that was rumored last December (or thereabouts) and has focusing to match. 5-6FPS. The video quality and capabilities are also outstanding (recall that video doesn't require a lot of pixels). WRT video, this is the successor to the 5D2. Cost approximately $3000.

5D3 - Introduced at Photokina. Same body as 6D/3D/9D except with a 40MP+ sensor and 3FPS. Cost approximately $3500. The studio/landscape photographers' camera. Image quality looks a lot like the 7D/7D2 except bigger.

7D2 - Introduced at Photokina and still APS-C. Moved upmarket to replace the 1D4 as the professional sports photographers' crop camera. Body is similar to the 5D3 and 3D/6D/9D bodies, but more rugged. 12FPS and 16MP with dual Digic 5 processors. Cost: $2200.

However, may be mirrorless with an EVF, permitting ridiculously high frame rates and adding $1000 to the cost.

Other APS-C cameras - Don't know. Don't care.
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: c.d.embrey on September 25, 2011, 03:15:22 PM
... but I just don't see any compelling argument to buy into the Sony ecosphere ...

Zeiss lenses are a good reason. Some of the old/recycled Minolta lenses are as good as Canon/Nikon lenses.

Quote
I'm admittedly biased against the Sony the parent company, and have a smoldering hatred for some of their subsidiaries; but I'll gladly give credit where credit is due.  I'm just not confident they're in it for the long haul.

I've used Sony professional Video Cameras for over 20 years. No complaints. My limited testing of the $600.00 Sony NEX 5n (gorgeous video) makes me think that someday soon Sony will be considered one of the best.
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: c.d.embrey on September 25, 2011, 03:34:42 PM
The POS 60D was/is a dated design, compare it to the Nikon D7000 released at the same time.

The POS 60D is the reason I bought a Sony NEX 5n. The Sony NEX 5n is the reason I'm buying a Sony NEX 7.

Cameras are just tools (not religious objects), and Canon has stopped building tools that I want/need.

Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: neuroanatomist on September 25, 2011, 03:40:52 PM
1Ds4 introduced during October or November with 27MP FF

5D3... with a 40MP+ sensor and 3FPS. Cost approximately $3500.

1DsIV at 27 MP and 5DIII at 40+ MP?  I think that's highly unlikely.

Other APS-C cameras - Don't know. Don't care.

Care?  Not really.  But the sun will rise tomorrow, govenrments will collect taxes, and we'll see a new Rebel/xxxD in 1Q2012.  Everything else is up in the air...
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: ecka on September 25, 2011, 03:53:50 PM
My crystal ball says:
[Canon EOS, September 2012]

1D5 - $8000 - Oct 2011 (FF high fps)
1Ds3 - $6500
1D4 - $4500
5D3 - $2900 - Oct 2011 (1D5 sensor but less fps)
5D2 - $2400
7D2 - $1800 - Feb 2012 (new APS-C, probably 24mp, 10fps?)
7D - $1600
70D - $1200 - Aug 2012 (7D2 sensor, ~6.5fps)
60D - $1000
650D - $800 - Feb 2012 (7D2 sensor)
600D - $700
550D - $600
1100D - $500

 ;D
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: jimmy156 on September 25, 2011, 05:23:43 PM

O/T but this attitude irritates me. I know everyone here will be a gear/tech freak, but that doesent make low end camera's "crappy" This shot for example was taken with an 1000d and 18-55 kit lens... and was highly commended in the prestigous wildlife photographer of the year award.


That's right, and great photo by the way.  Please realize that most people on this forum do know that great photos can be taken with "crappy" cameras.  Very cool photos can be taken with camera phones which most people, including pro photographers, carry around with them.  Most gearheads on this site also have a P&S but probably a pretty good one rather than a crappy one :)

You do touch on a good point.  There is a tendency to begin referring to anything less than the best available or even an ideal soon-to-be-announced camera to be "crappy".  The 7D has been called crappy.  The 5D2 focus has been called crappy.  Etc.  Well, that's just not true in absolute terms... comparatively, there might be some other camera that does a slightly better job at a particular feature but suddenly it's as if there's a night and day difference.  The Sony sensor in the Nikon D7000 had an extra stop of DR at low ISO and suddenly every other camera out there is crap, outdated, etc.  Nonsense.

To be fair, there are many pundits on here for focusing on real world image quality so there's a balance in the discussions.  No one feature or attribute is the best in all situations.  That's not to say each new feature or attribute isn't important.  They all are under certain situations.  Sports shooters need high frame rates, landscape photographers do not.  Everyone can benefit from higher DR at times but not every scene has even 10 stops of DR and in fact some photos look better with less DR so the photographer will clip the shadow details in photoshop to get more contrast and many other examples.

Gear is good.  Technology is good.  And it's cool when camera manufacturers give us something that hasn't been possible in the past.  Every camera has it's use from an iPhone all the way to a 1D4 and medium format.  Film is good so is digital... they each have different benefits and limitations.

It's fun.  No need for anyone to be offended or irritated except if anyone is rude or disrespectful to others and those trolls know who they are.  :)

I agree with all of that :) . Just wanted to point out that the shot i posted isn't mine! Wouldn't want people to think i was trying to pass it off as such! I just thought it illustrated my point particularly well.

As for you last sentence, you're right of course, but its this sort of attitude in forums/at camera clubs etc that can put people off photography in general. Just rubs me up the wrong way! I'll get over it :D
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: Bob Howland on September 25, 2011, 05:28:07 PM
1Ds4 introduced during October or November with 27MP FF

5D3... with a 40MP+ sensor and 3FPS. Cost approximately $3500.

1DsIV at 27 MP and 5DIII at 40+ MP?  I think that's highly unlikely.

The difference:

1Ds4 > 216 Million Pixels/Second with the most rugged body, but otherwise the most balanced of the models listed: second highest resolution, second largest pixels and second highest FPS

6D/3D/9D > 80-96 MP/S

5D3 > 120 MP/S

7D2 > 192 MP/S and the second most rugged body, but also the smallest sensor of the models listed
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: Zuuyi on September 25, 2011, 05:32:11 PM
Why do people complain so much about XXXD & XXXXD Rebels.  If it wasn't for those Income boosters; the XXD & XD cameras would either not exist or cost much more.  They are able to spread R&D cost to the masses.

And 99% of camera needs could be handled by the T3 kit.  So please make tons of XXXD & XXXXD cameras so I can get my XD camera for a reasonable price (not Hasselblad prices).
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: goodmane on September 25, 2011, 06:05:52 PM
The more I think about this, the less I'm beginning to care! Don't get me wrong I like the Canon products I have but I've pretty much grown tired of waiting for Canon to wake up to the fact I want a good small camera.

I'm very close to ditching my Canon SLR gear and picking up a Fuji X100 and maybe eventually a Leica. I don't like that Canon are being so slow to market, they don't impress me with innovation that I care about any more, that will help me take better family photos, videos and studio shots. I want either an affordable, smallish, superfast, 45 point AF FF SLR with a flash built-in, or a small rangefinder style camera.
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: JonJT on September 25, 2011, 06:57:22 PM
The more I think about this, the less I'm beginning to care! Don't get me wrong I like the Canon products I have but I've pretty much grown tired of waiting for Canon to wake up to the fact I want a good small camera.

I'm very close to ditching my Canon SLR gear and picking up a Fuji X100 and maybe eventually a Leica. I don't like that Canon are being so slow to market, they don't impress me with innovation that I care about any more, that will help me take better family photos, videos and studio shots. I want either an affordable, smallish, superfast, 45 point AF FF SLR with a flash built-in, or a small rangefinder style camera.
A small EOS FF camera would still have large lenses though.
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: elflord on September 25, 2011, 07:09:03 PM
The more I think about this, the less I'm beginning to care! Don't get me wrong I like the Canon products I have but I've pretty much grown tired of waiting for Canon to wake up to the fact I want a good small camera.

I'm very close to ditching my Canon SLR gear and picking up a Fuji X100 and maybe eventually a Leica. I don't like that Canon are being so slow to market, they don't impress me with innovation that I care about any more, that will help me take better family photos, videos and studio shots. I want either an affordable, smallish, superfast, 45 point AF FF SLR with a flash built-in, or a small rangefinder style camera.

If someone said to you "I want a small camera with decent image quality, I don't care very much for shallow depth of field, and I want something compact and not too expensive", would you tell them to get the 5D with the 24-70mm f/2.8 ? Why not just sell it all and get the EP3 or the GH2  ? Even if/when Canon do announce a mirrorless product, their lens lineup will be 3-4 years behind micro 4/3.
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: Meh on September 25, 2011, 08:05:09 PM
The more I think about this, the less I'm beginning to care! Don't get me wrong I like the Canon products I have but I've pretty much grown tired of waiting for Canon to wake up to the fact I want a good small camera.

Canon cares about what the market wants and what they think they can sell.  Frankly, there's nothing wrong with a company deciding not to enter a particular market segment.  Maybe Canon is getting it right by waiting for everyone else to get it wrong and see where the market goes.  Personally, I don't quite get the interchangeable lens compact segment... it's hot, people are buying them, but is it just a fad?  Canon has the size and depth to wait it out.

I'm very close to ditching my Canon SLR gear and picking up a Fuji X100 and maybe eventually a Leica. I don't like that Canon are being so slow to market, they don't impress me with innovation that I care about any more, that will help me take better family photos, videos and studio shots. I want either an affordable, smallish, superfast, 45 point AF FF SLR with a flash built-in, or a small rangefinder style camera.

If you're thinking of ditching your SLR gear for an X100 or Leica then just do it you probably don't need the SLR for what it is best at.  Two very different products for different photography.  They don't really overlap.  Are you suggesting you'll be taking studio shots with an X100?  I don't think so.

Affordable, small, and pop-up flash... but also superfast and 45 point AF?  Not sure all that goes together... maybe one day, not just yet.

The new Nikon V1 sounds perfect for what you need... get the pink one.  Sorry, just kidding about the pink but seriously given what you said you want (other than the studio work) it just about meets your requirements.

Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: neuroanatomist on September 25, 2011, 09:12:17 PM
The difference:

1Ds4 > 216 Million Pixels/Second with the most rugged body, but otherwise the most balanced of the models listed: second highest resolution, second largest pixels and second highest FPS

Sorry, Bob - I still don't see it.  What's the tagline, "The Canon EOS 1-series - second-best at a bunch of stuff," or, "The 1DsIV - the most MP/s of any Canon camera!" (They'll need to put out a white paper on the critical importance of MP/s to photographers, first, of course...)
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: Bob Howland on September 25, 2011, 09:59:01 PM
The difference:

1Ds4 > 216 Million Pixels/Second with the most rugged body, but otherwise the most balanced of the models listed: second highest resolution, second largest pixels and second highest FPS

Sorry, Bob - I still don't see it.  What's the tagline, "The Canon EOS 1-series - second-best at a bunch of stuff," or, "The 1DsIV - the most MP/s of any Canon camera!" (They'll need to put out a white paper on the critical importance of MP/s to photographers, first, of course...)

I'm pretty sure that most of the target market are sophisticated enough to not need a tagline. We're not talking about a FF Rebel here.
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: unfocused on September 25, 2011, 10:03:13 PM
1Ds4 introduced during October or November with 27MP FF

5D3... with a 40MP+ sensor and 3FPS. Cost approximately $3500.

1DsIV at 27 MP and 5DIII at 40+ MP?  I think that's highly unlikely.

I think that's putting it mildly. I think you've got the Megapixel counts reversed. I can see a 5D in the 25-30 range and a 1Ds in the 40-50 range.

The difference:

1Ds4 > 216 Million Pixels/Second with the most rugged body, but otherwise the most balanced of the models listed: second highest resolution, second largest pixels and second highest FPS

Sorry, Bob - I still don't see it.  What's the tagline, "The Canon EOS 1-series - second-best at a bunch of stuff," or, "The 1DsIV - the most MP/s of any Canon camera!" (They'll need to put out a white paper on the critical importance of MP/s to photographers, first, of course...)

+1, although I doubt if Canon will be pushing just the Megapixels with the 1DsIV. I imagine something like: highest resolution of any SLR with industry leading low-light sensitivity, frame rate and superior dynamic range.

I always have problems differentiating between what I want and what I think will happen, but here goes

7D2 - Introduced at Photokina and still APS-C. Moved upmarket to replace the 1D4 as the professional sports photographers' crop camera. Body is similar to the 5D3 and 3D/6D/9D bodies, but more rugged. 12FPS and 16MP with dual Digic 5 processors. Cost: $2200.

You had me until I got to the 16MP and the price. I'm thinking somewhere in the 21-26 megapixel range and I don't see Canon jacking up the price that much. There are a lot more enthusiasts than there are professional sports photographers. Personally, I'd be happy with the same 18 mp and some small improvements in noise, dynamic range and low light sensitivity, (Plus faster, weathersealed lenses at the wide end) but I think Canon won't want to have that much of a gap between their sensor and the competition.

Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: c.d.embrey on September 25, 2011, 10:36:57 PM
Why do people complain so much about XXXD & XXXXD Rebels.  If it wasn't for those Income boosters; the XXD & XD cameras would either not exist or cost much more.  They are able to spread R&D cost to the masses.

And 99% of camera needs could be handled by the T3 kit.  So please make tons of XXXD & XXXXD cameras so I can get my XD camera for a reasonable price (not Hasselblad prices).

Photographers take photos, NOT CAMERAS! I've had photos published that were taken with a Film Rebel.
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: c.d.embrey on September 25, 2011, 10:45:28 PM

 Are you suggesting you'll be taking studio shots with an X100?  I don't think so.


Terry Richardson did studio work with a Yashica T4 Film P&S. The right tool isn't always a Canon 1Ds, sometimes it's a Fuji X100 or aSony NEX 7.
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: Zuuyi on September 25, 2011, 10:56:08 PM
5d 40MP & 1Ds 27MP.  NO CHANCE.

Why would I pay 7k for a 1Ds when the 5D would out spec it for 4500 (your thought 3500) less.  I don't see 1.1 fps as anything important in studio photography, how fast are the lights refreshing.  And the better metering is extremely nice but not $4500 nice (Again the 1Ds is for a studio where lighting is controlled).   

I could see a 50MP 1Ds & 30MP 5D.  But the 5D already eats at the 1Ds sales, your prediction would make the 1Ds useless.
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: vk on September 25, 2011, 10:57:19 PM
The next year is the Olympic year, and my guess is that Canon is going to update 1D-series by April in the run-up to the Olympics. Perhaps at PMA in Las Vegas in January 2012. Canon experiences a lot of competition from Nikon in PJ sector, and they just cannot afford losing in the lucrative market of 1D-series and white supertele lenses...

1Ds Mk IV is long overdue, so it must be slotted for update in 2012 as well (perhaps at Photokina after Olympics rush is over).

There is going to be no 5D Mk III until 1Ds Mk IV is released. 5D Mk II sells like hotcakes, and there is really no serious competition in the prosumer full-frame segment. On the other hand Canon would not want new 5D Mk III to affect sales of 1D/1Ds series. So the 5D Mk III must be significantly inferior the upcoming 1Ds IV / 1D V (have poorer autofocus, slower fps, etc), and thus come after the pro cameras are updated.
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: c.d.embrey on September 25, 2011, 10:59:00 PM

A small EOS FF camera would still have large lenses though.

To me, weight is more important than size. A Canon 1DsIII weighs 42.5 oz./1,205g, a Sony NEX 7 weighs Approx. 10.3 oz (291g). That's a difference of 30.2 ounces! A FF mirrorless would only gain an ounce or so, say about 12 ounces total.
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: Meh on September 26, 2011, 12:36:27 AM

 Are you suggesting you'll be taking studio shots with an X100?  I don't think so.


Terry Richardson did studio work with a Yashica T4 Film P&S. The right tool isn't always a Canon 1Ds, sometimes it's a Fuji X100 or aSony NEX 7.

Fair enough. I agree.  You can do any type of photography you like with any type of equipment you want and get unique and interesting results whether for artistic or technical reasons.  An X100 is great camera with a fantastic sensor.  Leica's are great cameras.  Some nice shots have been taken with an iPhone.  But still I don't understand your statement that you're going to ditch your DLSR for an X100 because Canon won't wake up and realize you want a good small camera.   Maybe I'm missing the point.
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: c.d.embrey on September 26, 2011, 02:09:42 AM

Fair enough. I agree.  You can do any type of photography you like with any type of equipment you want and get unique and interesting results whether for artistic or technical reasons.  An X100 is great camera with a fantastic sensor.  Leica's are great cameras.  Some nice shots have been taken with an iPhone.  But still I don't understand your statement that you're going to ditch your DLSR for an X100 because Canon won't wake up and realize you want a good small camera.   Maybe I'm missing the point.

Someone named goodmane was the OP who wants to get a Fuji X100. I have no idea what his reasons are.

Me, I'm a tool user who has tools from Canon, Nikon, Sony, Toyo and Yashica. I don't plan on selling any of my Canon cameras, but as long as they aren't building anything new that I want/need, I won't be buying any new Canon equipment. Simple as that.

Sony is making something that I want/need with their light weight NEX mirrorless cameras (with excellent sensors). I prefer small/light cameras with prime lenses for my work. I've been using Sony pro video cameras for years, so there is no stigma attached to Sony for me.
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: ecka on September 26, 2011, 03:57:11 AM

 Are you suggesting you'll be taking studio shots with an X100?  I don't think so.


Terry Richardson did studio work with a Yashica T4 Film P&S. The right tool isn't always a Canon 1Ds, sometimes it's a Fuji X100 or aSony NEX 7.
Nothing's wrong with Yashica T4  ;) - FF, CZ Tessar, small and light. Too bad there is nothing similar with a digital sensor. Just imagine Canon PowerShot ... FF + a nice 35mm prime lens  ::) and cheap.
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: kirillica on September 26, 2011, 06:48:38 AM
I think the same: 1D pro bodies will be updated before Olympics so pro photographers can update. And after the first line of "consumerism" is over, 5Dm3 is out. So no 5Dm3 is out before end of Olympics.

At the same time, Canon shouldn't want 1D series available to soon: competitors may (and should) respond with their bodies too. So December-February is just fine.
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: ecka on September 26, 2011, 02:04:33 PM
I think the same: 1D pro bodies will be updated before Olympics so pro photographers can update. And after the first line of "consumerism" is over, 5Dm3 is out. So no 5Dm3 is out before end of Olympics.

At the same time, Canon shouldn't want 1D series available to soon: competitors may (and should) respond with their bodies too. So December-February is just fine.
Did you know that Canon has never made any DSLR announcements in November-December period? They did announce a DSLR in October once, 1D4 (2009). So, I think that if they won't come out with something in October, then that's it, we'll have to wait till Jan-Feb 2012 ;)
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: JonJT on September 26, 2011, 02:44:51 PM

A small EOS FF camera would still have large lenses though.

To me, weight is more important than size. A Canon 1DsIII weighs 42.5 oz./1,205g, a Sony NEX 7 weighs Approx. 10.3 oz (291g). That's a difference of 30.2 ounces! A FF mirrorless would only gain an ounce or so, say about 12 ounces total.
Granted but, I'm assuming you would still want to use EOS lenses on this mirrorless FF?  You'd save weight on the body but, for example, a fast 85mm is still going to be a heavy thing, no matter what system it is designed for.

Do you shoot a 1DsIII right now?  it would seem silly to compare it to an NEX 7, a camera that is quite different.  Are your interests moving in such a way that you actually would replace a 1DsIII with a FF NEX camera?
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: Meh on September 26, 2011, 03:15:03 PM

Fair enough. I agree.  You can do any type of photography you like with any type of equipment you want and get unique and interesting results whether for artistic or technical reasons.  An X100 is great camera with a fantastic sensor.  Leica's are great cameras.  Some nice shots have been taken with an iPhone.  But still I don't understand your statement that you're going to ditch your DLSR for an X100 because Canon won't wake up and realize you want a good small camera.   Maybe I'm missing the point.

Someone named goodmane was the OP who wants to get a Fuji X100. I have no idea what his reasons are.

Me, I'm a tool user who has tools from Canon, Nikon, Sony, Toyo and Yashica. I don't plan on selling any of my Canon cameras, but as long as they aren't building anything new that I want/need, I won't be buying any new Canon equipment. Simple as that.

Sony is making something that I want/need with their light weight NEX mirrorless cameras (with excellent sensors). I prefer small/light cameras with prime lenses for my work. I've been using Sony pro video cameras for years, so there is no stigma attached to Sony for me.

Your right, I failed to notice it was a different person posting.  I apologize for that.
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: c.d.embrey on September 26, 2011, 04:36:47 PM

 Are you suggesting you'll be taking studio shots with an X100?  I don't think so.


Terry Richardson did studio work with a Yashica T4 Film P&S. The right tool isn't always a Canon 1Ds, sometimes it's a Fuji X100 or aSony NEX 7.
Nothing's wrong with Yashica T4  ;) - FF, CZ Tessar, small and light. Too bad there is nothing similar with a digital sensor. Just imagine Canon PowerShot ... FF + a nice 35mm prime lens  ::) and cheap.

I have both a Yashica T3 (35mm f2.8) and a T4. I too have never understood why someone hasn't made a digital FF P&S. Kyocera (Contax and Yashica) is out of the camera business, but a digital Nikon T35 should be a big seller.
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: c.d.embrey on September 26, 2011, 05:41:19 PM

A small EOS FF camera would still have large lenses though.

To me, weight is more important than size. A Canon 1DsIII weighs 42.5 oz./1,205g, a Sony NEX 7 weighs Approx. 10.3 oz (291g). That's a difference of 30.2 ounces! A FF mirrorless would only gain an ounce or so, say about 12 ounces total.
Granted but, I'm assuming you would still want to use EOS lenses on this mirrorless FF?  You'd save weight on the body but, for example, a fast 85mm is still going to be a heavy thing, no matter what system it is designed for.

I don't like the big, heavy and slooow focusing 85 L. I use the 85mm f1.8. My advertising clients aren't impressed with "paper-thin-DOF" And I would only be interested in a mirrorless line that had it's own lenses.

Quote
Do you shoot a 1DsIII right now?  it would seem silly to compare it to an NEX 7, a camera that is quite different.  Are your interests moving in such a way that you actually would replace a 1DsIII with a FF NEX camera?

I use a 1DsII with an 85mm TS-E for table-top work. It is mounted on a FOBA camera stand and tethered to Capture One.I Never hand hold it, too big and heavy. For hand held work I use a 40D usually with a 85mm f1.8, using CF cards instead of tethered.

An E-mount Zeiss 24mm f1.8 weighs 7.9 oz (225g) plus a NEX 7 at 10.3 oz (291g) (excl battery & media) plus 2.1oz (57g) for the battery = 20.3 ounces. For comparison a Canon EF 24mm f/1.4L II USM weighs 22.9 ounces. So yes, I'll switch to Sony's NEX system for most of my work.

BTW I'll test the NEX 7 with a Tilt and Shift lens, all the NEX cameras have peaking focus, which should work well for table-top. Here's a video to show peaking focus in action  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPQroziHz-M  That's one of the good things about Sony being in the pro video business, maybe we'll get Zebra Stripe next.
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: Lee Jay on September 29, 2011, 09:22:05 PM
I think the 7D will make it all the way through 2012 and into 2013. What is there to improve on the camera?

What?

- Better sensor with lower read noise at lower ISOs (more dynamic range)
- Flexible video crop modes (it's embarrassing that the last two Rebels are both superior here)
- Reasonable autofocus performance in video mode
- Fast, reliable f/8 autofocus sensors
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: Meh on September 30, 2011, 12:13:36 AM
I think the 7D will make it all the way through 2012 and into 2013. What is there to improve on the camera?

What?

- Better sensor with lower read noise at lower ISOs (more dynamic range)
- Flexible video crop modes (it's embarrassing that the last two Rebels are both superior here)
- Reasonable autofocus performance in video mode
- Fast, reliable f/8 autofocus sensors

I have no comment on the video features but about the sensor and autofocus...

My understanding is that the read noise in almost all modern CCD and CMOS image sensors is about as low as it's going to get but there may still be a little improvement to be had (e.g. the 1D4 sensor and the latest Sony sensors in Nikon D7000 and Sony A77) so we'll almost certainly see this in the all the next Canon sensors.  However, the increase in DR due to the lower read noise is being offset by increasing resolution (smaller pixels) so overall we might see at most another stop of DR in the next 7D but maybe not.

f/8 autofocus is possible but what's left to differentiate the 7D2 from the 1D4/5?
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: Lee Jay on September 30, 2011, 06:40:56 PM
My understanding is that the read noise in almost all modern CCD and CMOS image sensors is about as low as it's going to get but there may still be a little improvement to be had (e.g. the 1D4 sensor and the latest Sony sensors in Nikon D7000 and Sony A77) so we'll almost certainly see this in the all the next Canon sensors.

Plenty of room for improvement between the 7D and D7000, especially at low ISO.
http://www.sensorgen.info/CanonEOS_7D.html
http://www.sensorgen.info/NikonD7000.html

Quote
However, the increase in DR due to the lower read noise is being offset by increasing resolution (smaller pixels) so overall we might see at most another stop of DR in the next 7D but maybe not.

No, this is a myth (hard as hell to kill, too).  Smaller pixels don't make poorer DR inherently.

http://www.sensorgen.info/CanonPowershot_G12.html

So, 7D and G12 both have 11.2 stops of DR at base ISO, but the G12's pixels are 4.4 times smaller.

Quote
f/8 autofocus is possible but what's left to differentiate the 7D2 from the 1D4/5?

The 1-series has a built in portrait grip, a bigger battery, is built like a tank, has better weather sealing, has UI designed to be used with gloves on, has a larger sensor, produces faster frame rates, and has longer shutter life.
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: Meh on September 30, 2011, 07:45:49 PM
My understanding is that the read noise in almost all modern CCD and CMOS image sensors is about as low as it's going to get but there may still be a little improvement to be had (e.g. the 1D4 sensor and the latest Sony sensors in Nikon D7000 and Sony A77) so we'll almost certainly see this in the all the next Canon sensors.

Plenty of room for improvement between the 7D and D7000, especially at low ISO.
http://www.sensorgen.info/CanonEOS_7D.html
http://www.sensorgen.info/NikonD7000.html


What do you mean by "plenty"?  We're talking about read noise at low ISO right?  Look at the info you linked to... 7D read noise is 8.6 electrons and the D7000 is 3.1 electrons.  So the difference is 5.5 electrons.  So there is a little room for improvement which as I said we've now seen in the latest Sony sensors.  By the math, this is a a little over 1 stop of DR.


Quote
However, the increase in DR due to the lower read noise is being offset by increasing resolution (smaller pixels) so overall we might see at most another stop of DR in the next 7D but maybe not.

No, this is a myth (hard as hell to kill, too).  Smaller pixels don't make poorer DR inherently.

http://www.sensorgen.info/CanonPowershot_G12.html

So, 7D and G12 both have 11.2 stops of DR at base ISO, but the G12's pixels are 4.4 times smaller.


Hard to kill because it is NOT a myth.  First let me point out that the G12 sensor is a CCD and the 7D sensor is CMOS so not apples to apples.  CCD are much simpler and the photosites can be made larger for any given resolution (more specifically "pixel pitch" or pixels per unit area on the sensor).  This is one of the big advantages of CCD.  The other advantage of CCD is that they have lower read noise (actually did have but CMOS has caught up in the last few years which you see in the Sony sensor data in your link) .  The combination of larger photosites and lower read noise gives much higher DR than CMOS.  When the industry first started to move to CMOS it was because of expected lower costs but that turned out not to be true at first but did come down over time (CCD has come down in cost as well but not as much).  CMOS has now caught up to CCD in read noise but not in photosite size.  The photosites are smaller with CMOS because there are more electronics required on the sensor itself and in fact take up about half the surface of the sensor.  CCDs don't have as much electronics on the sensor and the photosites can be made larger for a given resolution.

DR is better with larger photosites.  The larger the photosite the more electrons (converted/released from absorbed photons) can be collected so that the saturation level (the largest number of electrons that bucket can hold) is higher.  Look at the links you provided... the saturation levels are higher in the 7D and even higher in the D7000.  The D7000 has the highest saturation level and low read noise and therefore has the highest DR.

We can also see that the Sony sensor has much higher saturation levels than the 7D with about the same resolution and sensor size.  So we can conclude that the latest Sony designs have increased the size of the photosites (i.e. each photosite can hold more electrons).  I'm not aware of any proprietary/patented breakthrough from Sony so I think it's just the next evolution in the CMOS designs and we'll see it in the next Canon sensors as well but I'm guessing.

A good example of the progress in CCD sensors is to look at the data for the G10 compared to G11.  Canon wanted to make a the sensor better so they reduced the pixel pitch but also increased the photosite size which is evident from the large increase in saturation levels.  Also they got the noise down and the result is going from 9.3 stops DR in the G10 to 11.2 stops in the G11.  I'd like to see the sensor data for the new CMOS sensor in the S100.

f/8 autofocus is possible but what's left to differentiate the 7D2 from the 1D4/5?

The 1-series has a built in portrait grip, a bigger battery, is built like a tank, has better weather sealing, has UI designed to be used with gloves on, has a larger sensor, produces faster frame rates, and has longer shutter life.

I meant my answer as a bit of joke but it didn't come out that way I guess.  Of course there is a lot to differentiate the 1D4.  And with the latest processing speeds and new sensors the 1D5 will probably be FF because they will be able to get 10 fps from a high resolution sensor.  I do agree that if the for any sports oriented camera (1D4, 7D, and successors) AF performance is key and will always be an area for improvement.
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: Lee Jay on October 02, 2011, 07:48:07 PM
Hard to kill because it is NOT a myth.

Yeah...it is.  Smaller pixels have lower well capacities and lower read noise, implicitly, so there's no implicit reason for small pixels to have lower DR than large pixels.  That's why there's no rhyme or reason as to the DR among the range of pixel sizes, from 2 microns to over 8 microns.

A77, 3.89 micron pixels, 12.2 stops
5DII, 6.39 micron pixels, 11.2 stops
5D, 8.04 micron pixels, 10.8 stops
Title: Re: Opinion - What EOS Will Look Like by Photokina
Post by: Meh on October 02, 2011, 10:29:45 PM
Hard to kill because it is NOT a myth.

Yeah...it is.  Smaller pixels have lower well capacities and lower read noise, implicitly, so there's no implicit reason for small pixels to have lower DR than large pixels.  That's why there's no rhyme or reason as to the DR among the range of pixel sizes, from 2 microns to over 8 microns.

A77, 3.89 micron pixels, 12.2 stops
5DII, 6.39 micron pixels, 11.2 stops
5D, 8.04 micron pixels, 10.8 stops

How can you say " there's no rhyme or reason" to something that is a measurable and quantifiable value.   There are also reasons, that are in fact very well understood, for the sources and amount of noise in any electronic circuit.

The three cameras you listed are all from very different generations, many years apart in fact.  That's a reason, technology improves over time.

Btw, where you write "implicitly" in your comment I will assume you meant to say "inherently".   I will also grant you that a lower noise floor allows for higher DR for a given maximum signal and that is because DR is the ratio of the largest signal to the lowest signal that can be recorded.   So yes, in a case where the noise floor reduction is proportionally larger than a decrease in the max signal (due to the smaller photosites) then DR would go up.

You might also read my comments again and notice that I identified the Sony A77 sensor as having achieved a notable increase in the full well capacity which is done by increasing the size of the photosite which is the surface area of that is sensitive to the photons.  The size values you are quoting are the pixel pitches which is not the same thing...  there are gaps between the photosites due primarily to the electronics that sit beside each photosite.  It would seem Sony has found a way to increase the size of the photosite possibly by reducing the size of the other electronics... with more area available for the photosite they can be made larger so that each can collect more photons.

Historically, larger pixel sensors have had higher read noise than contemporary smaller pixel sensors.  Read noise is actually made up of a number of noise sources in the electronics but not all of them scale with pixel size.   It has also been historically the case that the read noise at low ISO was higher than at high ISO and this was related to the noise sources that scale with the fullness of the wells (at high ISO settings the wells are not filling up) and the way the amplifiers work.   CMOS sensor technology has advanced read noise has come down which improves DR.  Again, the Sony sensor in the A77 is notable because the read noise has come down at all ISO levels and in fact it's a significant improvement at low ISO such that the read noise is remarkably consistent from low to high ISO.   If this can be implemented for a FF sensor with larger pixels (higher maximum signal) we should see a big bump in DR!!!

I'm happy to discuss further if you or anyone has any facts or examples about this but please don't just write back "yeah... it is".