canon rumors FORUM

Gear Talk => EOS Bodies - For Stills => Topic started by: Morlin on November 01, 2013, 06:11:09 AM

Title: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: Morlin on November 01, 2013, 06:11:09 AM
Hi.

As most of you are aware of Nikon and Sony (I know that Sony manufacture sensors for Nikon) sensors are better when it comes to DR and so on compared to Canon. I have read DXO-tests and many others that verify that. But there seems to be a point at a ISO-value where the difference is not that big. Of course there is an advantage in mp also for the 36mp bodies but the resolution is not what I am thinking of now.

My main interest is wildlife photography and I am almost all the time above ISO 800 to get quicker shutter speed.
At an ISO-level of 800 and more is the advantage and quality still better with Nikon D800? 

I will soon spend a lot of money on a Canon 600mm and by purchase that lens I really commit myself to Canon. It would cost the same to go with a brand new D800 and their Nikon 600mm as only the Canon lens because of the big difference in cost. The Canon 600mm really is expensive!

So for you that have more knowledge than me.. Should I stay with Canon (5D mkiii and 7D) because the difference in DR at high ISO is not that big compared to the different brands at ISO 100 or is the image quality so much better overall for Nikon and Sony?

Testresults shows one thing but to use in real life under the circumstances can be so different.

My English is not the very best so no comments please  8)

Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: J.R. on November 01, 2013, 06:38:10 AM
At the risk of putting my hand in a beehive, I suggest you read this -

http://www.dxomark.com/Reviews/Which-lenses-should-you-choose-for-your-Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-III/Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-III-vs.-Nikon-D800-Competition-is-closer-than-expected (http://www.dxomark.com/Reviews/Which-lenses-should-you-choose-for-your-Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-III/Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-III-vs.-Nikon-D800-Competition-is-closer-than-expected)

Given a very good lens with a Canon camera should give you some of the best IQ possible with a DSLR.

You are thinking about the 600mm f/4 II which is one of the best superteles available as of this moment.
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: Rienzphotoz on November 01, 2013, 07:32:01 AM
I do not own the EF 600mm lens and nor have I ever tried one (but that could change during my vacation in Australia this December, as I plan to rent one) ... but I do use both Canon & Nikon cameras/lenses ... from my limited experience of trying Sigma 150-500mm OS lenses on  Canon 5D MK III & Nikon D800E, I could not find any difference in the RAW images (JPEGs were obviously different in the way the colors were displayed). I eventually chose to stick with Nikon D7100 for bird photography (due to the additional crop factor of 1.3 for more reach without losing too many megapixel) and 5D MK III for everything else.   
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: duydaniel on November 01, 2013, 07:43:38 AM
These cameras have come a long way.
They are very close so that sensor IQ is the last thing you should worry about.
You just need to buy the lens you need, which camera fit your hand better etc
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: photonius on November 01, 2013, 07:47:42 AM
Hi.

As most of you are aware of Nikon and Sony (I know that Sony manufacture sensors for Nikon) sensors are better when it comes to DR and so on compared to Canon. I have read DXO-tests and many others that verify that. But there seems to be a point at a ISO-value where the difference is not that big. Of course there is an advantage in mp also for the 36mp bodies but the resolution is not what I am thinking of now.

My main interest is wildlife photography and I am almost all the time above ISO 800 to get quicker shutter speed.
At an ISO-level of 800 and more is the advantage and quality still better with Nikon D800? 

I will soon spend a lot of money on a Canon 600mm and by purchase that lens I really commit myself to Canon. It would cost the same to go with a brand new D800 and their Nikon 600mm as only the Canon lens because of the big difference in cost. The Canon 600mm really is expensive!

So for you that have more knowledge than me.. Should I stay with Canon (5D mkiii and 7D) because the difference in DR at high ISO is not that big compared to the different brands at ISO 100 or is the image quality so much better overall for Nikon and Sony?

Testresults shows one thing but to use in real life under the circumstances can be so different.

My English is not the very best so no comments please  8)

quite right, the DR advantage disappears at higher ISO when you look at the DXO mark tests.
Also, as pointed out, the DXO mark tests show you achieve better resolution with the Canon despite the smaller Nr of pixels, because each system is a composite of sensor resolution and lens resolution. So the Canon lens is better.
If you need higher pixel density, you can always hook up your 600mm lens to a 70D body
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: Sporgon on November 01, 2013, 08:27:07 AM

 I have read DXO


DXO are French. Explains everything.  ;)
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: neuroanatomist on November 01, 2013, 08:30:41 AM
quite right, the DR advantage disappears at higher ISO when you look at the DXO mark tests.
Also, as pointed out, the DXO mark tests show you achieve better resolution with the Canon despite the smaller Nr of pixels, because each system is a composite of sensor resolution and lens resolution. So the Canon lens is better.
If you need higher pixel density, you can always hook up your 600mm lens to a 70D body

+1 - as you can see in the screenshot below, the combination of the Canon 5DIII + 600/4L IS II delivers better sharpness and less chromatic aberration (CA) than the combination of the Nikon D800 + 600/4G ED VR.  (The fact that the Scores are the same despite the Canon combo being sharper and having less CA is a reflection of DxO's Biased Scores - abbreviated as BS for a reason.)

CA is the bane of many Nikon lenses, and their ED elements do not do as good a job of correcting it as Canon's fluorite elements.  I like how Nikon claims (http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/lens/glossary.htm) (or at least, implies) their ED glass is optically as good as fluorite, and is a better choice because fluorite is so fragile: "Nikon developed ED (Extra-low Dispersion) glass to enable the production of lenses that offer superior sharpness and color correction by minimizing chromatic aberration.  Put simply, chromatic aberration is a type of image and color dispersion that occurs when light rays of varying wavelengths pass through optical glass. In the past, correcting this problem for telephoto lenses required special optical elements that offer anomalous dispersion characteristics - specifically calcium fluoride crystals. However, fluorite easily cracks and is sensitive to temperature changes that can adversely affect focusing by altering the lens' refractive index."  However, they now say (http://www.nikonusa.com/en/Nikon-Products/Product/Camera-Lenses/2205/AF-S-NIKKOR-800mm-f%252F5.6E-FL-ED-VR.html) about their new 800/5.6 lens, "...front and second elements are fluorite (a lightweight mono-crystal optical material), which provides superior optical characteristics and reduced weight for balanced handling."  When they didn't use fluorite, it wasn't any better and was fragile - now, it's 'superior' and they are making a front element from it.  Apparently, consistency isn't Nikon's strong suit.

Despite the DxOMark data below, I honestly think that images from either combo will be basically indistinduishable from an IQ standpoint (but it's worth noting that the Canon teleconverters deliver better IQ than their Nikon counterparts).  Also, the 5DIII has a faster frame rate and arguably better autofocus, and the Canon 600/4 II is 2.5 lbs lighter than the Nikon 600/4.  I can shoot with my 1D X + 600/4L IS II combo handheld, and I couldn't with the Nikon combo.  That 2.5 lbs also makes a difference on a long walk/hike.  So, based on the frame rate and weight benefits, I'd say the Canon combo is the better choice.
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: sanj on November 01, 2013, 08:49:01 AM
Great explanation Neuro. Yet again!
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: Arctic Photo on November 01, 2013, 09:50:36 AM
a very simple and one-eyed explanation from Neuros side
this picture and 400mm lenses says something completely different
But the op asked about the 600mm.
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: J.R. on November 01, 2013, 10:30:50 AM
a very simple and one-eyed explanation from Neuros side
this picture and 400mm lenses says something completely different
But the op asked about the 600mm.

Talk about a one eyed explanation  ::) ::)
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: neuroanatomist on November 01, 2013, 10:40:52 AM
A very  one-eyed explanation from Neuros side
this picture and 400mm lenses says something completely different regarding sharpness and CA

As pointed out by another member, the OP is asking about 600mm lenses, not 400mm lenses.  Also, your screenshot shows the Canon 400/2.8 II on the 1DsIII, not the 5DIII which the OP is asking about (and where it the sharpness is 3 P-Mpix higher) .  So either that's carelessness on your part, or you've intentionally added your own bias to that of DxOMark.

Why did you go down to 400mm lenses?  The next step down the line is 500mm.  Oh, wait - I know why you skipped the 500mm lenses...
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: mackguyver on November 01, 2013, 10:50:53 AM
CA is the bane of many Nikon lenses, and their ED elements do not do as good a job of correcting it as Canon's fluorite elements.  I like how Nikon claims (http://imaging.nikon.com/lineup/lens/glossary.htm) (or at least, implies) their ED glass is optically as good as fluorite, and is a better choice because fluorite is so fragile: "Nikon developed ED (Extra-low Dispersion) glass to enable the production of lenses that offer superior sharpness and color correction by minimizing chromatic aberration.  Put simply, chromatic aberration is a type of image and color dispersion that occurs when light rays of varying wavelengths pass through optical glass. In the past, correcting this problem for telephoto lenses required special optical elements that offer anomalous dispersion characteristics - specifically calcium fluoride crystals. However, fluorite easily cracks and is sensitive to temperature changes that can adversely affect focusing by altering the lens' refractive index."  However, they now say (http://www.nikonusa.com/en/Nikon-Products/Product/Camera-Lenses/2205/AF-S-NIKKOR-800mm-f%252F5.6E-FL-ED-VR.html) about their new 800/5.6 lens, "...front and second elements are fluorite (a lightweight mono-crystal optical material), which provides superior optical characteristics and reduced weight for balanced handling."  When they didn't use fluorite, it wasn't any better and was fragile - now, it's 'superior' and they are making a front element from it.  Apparently, consistency isn't Nikon's strong suit.
That's hilarious, I didn't know that they used to claim it was too fragile to use, um well except for the 800mm.  ROTFL.
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: BozillaNZ on November 05, 2013, 11:14:47 PM
Meh, before they (Nikon) had D3, they tell users that FF is useless, DX is the future. Now?

Before they had the D800, they tell users that 12MP is all you need. Now?

It is THE photographic company that eats their words the most, I am not surprised about their attitude towards fluorite element.
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: RLPhoto on November 06, 2013, 09:26:47 AM
Nikon > Canon for DR.

Now consider that 600LII will last several camera bodies. Will Nikon still be leading two or three generations down?
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: J.R. on November 06, 2013, 10:15:00 AM

Now consider that 600LII will last several camera bodies. Will Nikon still be leading two or three generations down?

Comment of the day!
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: mackguyver on November 06, 2013, 10:46:10 AM

Now consider that 600LII will last several camera bodies. Will Nikon still be leading two or three generations down?

Comment of the day!
+1,000,000
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: JohnDizzo15 on November 06, 2013, 11:10:44 AM
A very  one-eyed explanation from Neuros side
this picture and 400mm lenses says something completely different regarding sharpness and CA

As pointed out by another member, the OP is asking about 600mm lenses, not 400mm lenses.  Also, your screenshot shows the Canon 400/2.8 II on the 1DsIII, not the 5DIII which the OP is asking about (and where it the sharpness is 3 P-Mpix higher) .  So either that's carelessness on your part, or you've intentionally added your own bias to that of DxOMark.

Why did you go down to 400mm lenses?  The next step down the line is 500mm.  Oh, wait - I know why you skipped the 500mm lenses...

Neuro, you just made me spit up my coffee.

If this were a dance competition, one might be led to say that Terje got served.
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: Albi86 on November 06, 2013, 12:23:24 PM

Now consider that 600LII will last several camera bodies. Will Nikon still be leading two or three generations down?

Comment of the day!

Well, the answer might well be yes. Canon's policy of manufacturing their own sensors limits the possibility of frequent tech upgrades. It means that if at any point Canon will have an edge again, it probably won't last long.

However, the great advantages of Sony sensors - at least of this generation - are only such up to ISO 800 - 1600. And on top of that, in the 500-600mm range Canon seems to have an edge. So for the OP's needs and wallet Nikon is not a sensible choice.
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: neuroanatomist on November 06, 2013, 12:29:09 PM
Where is Terje the one post wonder? ... I'm betting that Terje is "he who must not be named" of this forum ;D

If I did take that bet, the only question left would be, "How much do I owe you?"
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: tron on November 06, 2013, 12:51:03 PM
Where is Terje the one post wonder? ... I'm betting that Terje is "he who must not be named" of this forum ;D

If I did take that bet, the only question left would be, "How much do I owe you?"
;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: 9VIII on November 06, 2013, 01:41:04 PM
If you compare the 6D with the D800 on Sensorgen, at ISO 800 the DR is basically the same, and above that the D800 basically has one stop less DR. The 5D3 is more on the same level as the D800.
Comparing the D4 with the 1Dx the D4 keeps its advantage longer, but things are even by ISO3200.
After looking at these comparisons it's clear that Canon isn't actually dropping the ball on sensor tech, more specifically I think they're doing an excellent job of designing sensors for the way they see people using their cameras.
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: Rienzphotoz on November 06, 2013, 01:53:07 PM
Where is Terje the one post wonder? ... I'm betting that Terje is "he who must not be named" of this forum ;D

If I did take that bet, the only question left would be, "How much do I owe you?"
;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D ... but its amazing that people like Terje specifically target a member with their very first post ... I mean do people like Treje think we are that dumb that we don't even know that "------" is same as " -----"?
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: captainkanji on November 06, 2013, 01:57:14 PM
That Sony DR won't do me any good since I like to take photos in the dark. Superior selection of lenses (that I can afford)  and great  ergonomics  are more reasons I recommend Canon.   I think they have a superior system.
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: tron on November 06, 2013, 03:08:56 PM
Where is Terje the one post wonder? ... I'm betting that Terje is "he who must not be named" of this forum ;D

If I did take that bet, the only question left would be, "How much do I owe you?"
;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D ... but its amazing that people like Terje specifically target a member with their very first post ... I mean do people like Treje think we are that dumb that we don't even know that "------" is same as " -----"?
Still they get to live in a very nice - albeit cold - country...  ;D 
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: Lichtgestalt on November 06, 2013, 03:38:28 PM
that´s maybe a stupid question... but then my mother always said there are no stupid questions only stupid answers.

DxO is testing lenses on different camera bodys.
so i guess it´s impossible to get a 25 MP sharpness result form a 22MP camera.  ;)

wouldn´t it be better to test all lenses on a, lets say 180MP medium format sensor?
if a MF sensor makes no sense... maybe a special build sensor that´s the size of a 35mm sensor but with extremly high resolution. 

i only mentioned MF because of the high MP number.. but on second thought, is the spatial resolution of the IQ180 MF sensors higher as on nikons 36 MP FF sensor? have not checked that.

DxO doesn´t test the AF.
so why not using an adapter and attach the lens to a sensor that offers an equal starting point for all lenses?

that would be a real lens test then... not?
it would keep the different cameras out of the equation.

i know that different mounts have different flange distances.
but i mean... DxO is a big testing labor, it´s sure not impossible for them to build such a testing rig?
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: Rienzphotoz on November 08, 2013, 03:15:29 AM
Nikon > Canon for DR.

Now consider that 600LII will last several camera bodies. Will Nikon still be leading two or three generations down?
Good one
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: aj1575 on November 08, 2013, 04:58:14 AM
Hi.

As most of you are aware of Nikon and Sony (I know that Sony manufacture sensors for Nikon) sensors are better when it comes to DR and so on compared to Canon. I have read DXO-tests and many others that verify that. But there seems to be a point at a ISO-value where the difference is not that big. Of course there is an advantage in mp also for the 36mp bodies but the resolution is not what I am thinking of now.

This should bring you to the comparison site of the two lenses and cameras.
http://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Compare-Camera-Lenses/Compare-lenses/(lens1)/394/(lens2)/1175/(brand1)/Canon/(camera1)/795/(brand2)/Nikkor/(camera2)/792 (http://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Compare-Camera-Lenses/Compare-lenses/(lens1)/394/(lens2)/1175/(brand1)/Canon/(camera1)/795/(brand2)/Nikkor/(camera2)/792)
The Nikon does not seem to produce better images than the Canon despite the higher pixel count. The advantage in DR is also gone at ISO 1600 (at 800 there remains a little advantage). But because of the lower pixel count the EOS 5D has the advantage in FPS (6:4; this means in the same time you get 3 pictures from the EOS 5D, you will only get 2 from the D800).

But I think you would be able to make great pictures with both cameras.
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: eml58 on November 08, 2013, 05:24:30 AM
Poor Terje, waited years everyday checking CR, wanting to jump in and make a comment that would stun & amaze, then the opportunity presented and he choked at the start, real bummer, and embarrassing, for Terke, sorry, terje.

I notice it was Terje's first ever comment, sort of like it was Morlin's first ever comment, I wonder ?????

I mean, it couldn't be, surely, Morlin is Terje incognito ??, like we used to have "you know who" incognito as the "temple guy", they all seem to have two things in common, Love Nikon DR, Hate everything that has Canon written on it, and aren't keen on Nuero either, Ok, that's 3 things in common.
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: Rienzphotoz on November 08, 2013, 06:11:27 AM
Poor Terje, waited years everyday checking CR, wanting to jump in and make a comment that would stun & amaze, then the opportunity presented and he choked at the start, real bummer, and embarrassing, for Terke, sorry, terje.
+1
But it is the fault of neuroanatomist, he has too many posts ;D
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: J.R. on November 08, 2013, 07:19:53 AM

I notice it was Terje's first ever comment, sort of like it was Morlin's first ever comment, I wonder ?????

I mean, it couldn't be, surely, Morlin is Terje incognito ??, like we used to have "you know who" incognito as the "temple guy", they all seem to have two things in common, Love Nikon DR, Hate everything that has Canon written on it, and aren't keen on Nuero either, Ok, that's 3 things in common.

It can't be temple guy ... We didn't get to see those horribly under-exposed vomiting inducing images.

But just look at it ... The guy did end up being a legend, though not necessarily the way he wanted to. He was unceremoniously booted out of CR and here we are months later, still talking about him.  :P
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: dlleno on November 08, 2013, 12:24:17 PM
Poor Terje, waited years everyday checking CR, wanting to jump in and make a comment that would stun & amaze, then the opportunity presented and he choked at the start, real bummer, and embarrassing, for Terke, sorry, terje.

I notice it was Terje's first ever comment, sort of like it was Morlin's first ever comment, I wonder ?????

I mean, it couldn't be, surely, Morlin is Terje incognito ??, like we used to have "you know who" incognito as the "temple guy", they all seem to have two things in common, Love Nikon DR, Hate everything that has Canon written on it, and aren't keen on Nuero either, Ok, that's 3 things in common.

  ...  aren't we up to five CR personas now?
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: preppyak on November 08, 2013, 12:54:36 PM
wouldn´t it be better to test all lenses on a, lets say 180MP medium format sensor?
But what would the outcome of that test really be? Why do I need to know that my Canon lens resolves better than a Nikon equivalent at 180mp? Is there a 180mp on the market, or even the possibility of one?

I get what you are going for, but, the result would be so far divorced from reality that it wouldn't really be useful. I mean, even DXO's sensor tests are a little out there, because they are just testing the sensor, not the electronics that deliver the actual image. But at least it's mostly grounded in reality; it's a sensor that exists. And when they test lens/camera combos, they are things I could use in the real world.

Would knowing that the Nikon can resolve a tiny bit better on your 180mp sensor make me change from Canon to Nikon? No, because today, on the cameras they both have, there is no noticeable difference. And I'm taking pictures today. The results would basically just be fodder for useless flame wars.
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: neuroanatomist on November 08, 2013, 01:29:38 PM
And when they test lens/camera combos, they are things I could use in the real world.

But...now we have the Sony a7 and a7R, FF sensors in bodies which can use (in theory) both Canon and Nikon lenses.  Will DxO test those lenses on those bodies? 

DxO has not tested Nikon's 14-24/2.8 on Canon bodies. Some people use the Nikon 14-24 on Canon bodies, it's wider and generally accepted to be sharper than Canon's 16-35/2.8 II.  If/when Canon comes out with a 14-24 or updated 16-35, it could be useful to know which is the sharper lens, independent of camera.

Just a couple of examples of how sensor-independent lens tests could be useful in the real world.
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: Lichtgestalt on November 08, 2013, 02:34:49 PM
wouldn´t it be better to test all lenses on a, lets say 180MP medium format sensor?
But what would the outcome of that test really be? Why do I need to know that my Canon lens resolves better than a Nikon equivalent at 180mp? Is there a 180mp on the market, or even the possibility of one?

at least it would show the performance of the LENS not the combination lens + camera.
the way it is they have to redo the test each time a manufacturer releases a camera with more MP.

and maybe we could see how good the lens design is. if it can reach it´s possible maximium.
i never really cared about nyquist. maybe i have too look into that.

Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: David Hull on November 08, 2013, 04:05:23 PM
Besides, he's taken his fight to DPR:  http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52443217 (http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52443217)
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: Sporgon on November 08, 2013, 04:15:33 PM
Besides, he's taken his fight to DPR:  http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52443217 (http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52443217)

 ;D   ;D

Well spotted, that is hilarious.

But what is even more funny is that if you read the replies on his thread he got no sympathy at all from the dpreview crowd !  ;D
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: Diko on November 08, 2013, 05:14:38 PM
... Also, as pointed out, the DXO mark tests show you achieve better resolution with the Canon despite the smaller Nr of pixels, because each system is a composite of sensor resolution and lens resolution. So the Canon lens is better.
If you need higher pixel density, you can always hook up your 600mm lens to a 70D body

Hmm Interesting... lens resolution... What about: Otus 1.4/55 (http://lenses.zeiss.com/camera-lenses/en_de/camera_lenses/otus/otus1455.html)?

I wonder what glass do THEY put instead of fluorite... They claim that is more expensive than GOLD...
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: serendipidy on November 08, 2013, 05:28:39 PM
Still they get to live in a very nice - albeit cold - country...  ;D
Hey, come on, it´s not that cold. We used to have 9 months of winter and 3 months of poor sledge conditions, but because of global warming the ratio moved to 7:5 ;)

By the way, Terje is a Norwegian name and I believe Voldemort was Swedish (?) and you should be aware that a Swede impersonating a Norwegian (and vice versa), is a crime beyond treason! Like we say; You can always tell a Swede ... but you can´t tell him much!

Now it is time for another single malt. A 30 year old Isle of Jura should do. Have a great weekend!

 ;D ;D ;D ;D 8)
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: dlleno on November 08, 2013, 06:25:10 PM
Besides, he's taken his fight to DPR:  http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52443217 (http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52443217)

 ;D   ;D

Well spotted, that is hilarious.

But what is even more funny is that if you read the replies on his thread he got no sympathy at all from the dpreview crowd !  ;D

well some trolls do it for fun.... but that guy seem to have a serious mental problem.

He was an astonishing example of the difference betweeen knowledge and wisdom.
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: David Hull on November 08, 2013, 06:36:33 PM
Besides, he's taken his fight to DPR:  http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52443217 (http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52443217)

 ;D   ;D

Well spotted, that is hilarious.

But what is even more funny is that if you read the replies on his thread he got no sympathy at all from the dpreview crowd !  ;D

He is pretty well known over there as well.
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: eml58 on November 08, 2013, 06:52:47 PM
He is pretty well known over there as well.

Yes, an interesting read over at DP Review, Thanks for pointing that out, sort of confirms what was thought, at least what I suspected.

Tends towards sadness though, poor chap hasn't learnt anything, and it must be awfully confusing for the Lad, I mean, what does he call himself next ?? Darth ??
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: Mt Spokane Photography on November 08, 2013, 07:06:00 PM
Besides, he's taken his fight to DPR:  http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52443217 (http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52443217)

 ;D   ;D

Well spotted, that is hilarious.

But what is even more funny is that if you read the replies on his thread he got no sympathy at all from the dpreview crowd !  ;D

He is pretty well known over there as well.
Some like to Debate, its a sport.  If you ever agree with them, they will reverse and switch sides.  Eventually, this can get under your skin and it degrades a forum. 
 
I'm really surprised that he's still on DPR, they have been really quick to issue bans on many occasions for seemingly minor things.
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: ajfotofilmagem on November 08, 2013, 07:54:35 PM
It seems that "you know who" miss the heated discussions we had in CR. ::) Does "who should not pronounce the name," would be happy to NikonRumors with multiple users sharing their opinions? :o
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: Mt Spokane Photography on November 08, 2013, 08:05:31 PM
It seems that "you know who" miss the heated discussions we had in CR. ::) Does "who should not pronounce the name," would be happy to NikonRumors with multiple users sharing their opinions? :o

I think opinions are welcome here, particularly those rationally backed up.  Bashing those who do not agree with you - not so much.  Its a human tendency to defend your territory, but going overboard is the issue.
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: tron on November 08, 2013, 10:16:22 PM
Besides, he's taken his fight to DPR:  http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52443217 (http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52443217)

 ;D   ;D

Well spotted, that is hilarious.

But what is even more funny is that if you read the replies on his thread he got no sympathy at all from the dpreview crowd !  ;D
So no respect for the president ?   :o  :o  :o

Haven't you seen his signature?

Member of Swedish Photographers Association since 1984
Canon, Hasselblad, Leica,Nikon, Linhoff, Sinar
President of IARNA International anti-banding and read out noise Association

 ;D  ;D  ;D
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: neuroanatomist on November 08, 2013, 10:45:23 PM
I think opinions are welcome here, particularly those rationally backed up.  Bashing those who do not agree with you - not so much.  Its a human tendency to defend your territory, but going overboard is the issue.
I agree.  As was pointed out on his DPR thread, the real issue was not really what he said, but how he said it.  Many people here, myself included, repeatedly agreed with him that Canon sensors have less low ISO DR than other brands. Apparently, that wasn't good enough, because we also questioned the impact of that difference, and pointed out that the sensor is only one component of a camera, and for many people, other aspects of system performance are of greater importance.

Besides, he's taken his fight to DPR:  http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52443217 (http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52443217)
Fun read.  ::)

I enjoyed the irony that he mentions 'religion' but denies having an 'agenda' and being on a 'crusade'....and yet he has signed up with new accounts on CR at least eight times (that have been obvious enough for me to notice, anyway) in just the past three weeks, posting a couple or a couple dozen times before moving to a new name (presumably due to repeated bans).  If that's not a crusade, what is?   IIRC, two of those new sign ups occurred after he started his DPR rant, which begs the question...if CR is such a 'joke', why is he trying so desperately to continue posting here?

Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: Orangutan on November 09, 2013, 12:31:03 AM
why is he trying so desperately to continue posting here?

I suspect he may not be neurotypical.

(no pun intended)
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: eml58 on November 09, 2013, 12:49:33 AM
why is he trying so desperately to continue posting here?

May be covered in some degree by the words of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle.

"Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself, but Talent instantly recognises Genius"

I think perhaps he likes to think he falls into the second part when looking into a Mirror, unfortunately the first part pretty well covers things.
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: AlanF on November 09, 2013, 02:49:28 AM
Many of these trolls unfortunately suffer from Aspergers.

"Asperger Syndrome is a developmental disorder. People with AS don’t have cognitive or language deficits. (If they do, they’re diagnosed with autism.) But they do have a difficult time interacting, communicating and connecting with others. They’re unable to pick up on social cues."

I have come across another forum baiter with similar characteristics: the constant need to push his opinion; obsessiveness; goad others; and sign himself as belonging to some official organization that he thinks somehow adds credence to him.

Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: abcde12345 on November 09, 2013, 04:40:28 AM
What's going on here? Sorry but I'm kind of new around here.  :-X
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: Nishi Drew on November 09, 2013, 05:10:34 AM
Meanwhile, the photographers that didn't really care went on to take marvelous photos with whatever cameras on hand
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: Eldar on November 09, 2013, 05:12:26 AM
What's going on here? Sorry but I'm kind of new around here.  :-X
Since the original topic has been argued to death (numerous times), it was only natural to divert into mental health ;)
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: ajfotofilmagem on November 09, 2013, 07:15:37 AM
What's going on here? Sorry but I'm kind of new around here.  :-X
This topic was started by a citizen unsocial, who was kicked several times in this forum, for misconduct. He always comes back with different names, but when he make your comments, we soon discovered it was the same person, because of their "modus operandi". He comes to a forum on Canon equipment, and tries to convince everyone that Canon has the worst camera in the world, and fight fiercely with those who do not agree with their opinions.
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: abcde12345 on November 09, 2013, 07:32:11 AM
What's going on here? Sorry but I'm kind of new around here.  :-X
This topic was started by a citizen unsocial, who was kicked several times in this forum, for misconduct. He always comes back with different names, but when he make your comments, we soon discovered it was the same person, because of their "modus operandi". He comes to a forum on Canon equipment, and tries to convince everyone that Canon has the worst camera in the world, and fight fiercely with those who do not agree with their opinions.
Ah.. That explains it. All his posts seem to be gone! Too bad.
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: Roo on November 09, 2013, 08:35:20 AM
I enjoyed the irony that he mentions 'religion' but denies having an 'agenda' and being on a 'crusade'....and yet he has signed up with new accounts on CR at least eight times (that have been obvious enough for me to notice, anyway) in just the past three weeks, posting a couple or a couple dozen times before moving to a new name (presumably due to repeated bans).  If that's not a crusade, what is?   IIRC, two of those new sign ups occurred after he started his DPR rant, which begs the question...if CR is such a 'joke', why is he trying so desperately to continue posting here?

My favourite ironies were 'same old rhetoric' and 'anything new under the sun?'.  Ok the last one may have been out of context but still very relevant to his single mindedness. 

Being new here I found his posts interesting and enlightening at first but he became tiresome at always flogging the same issue and dragging threads off topic. I really only need to be told something once. When I chose my cameras it was about a combination of ergonomics, user interface, image quality etc and Canon offered the best overall environment.  If I was choosing solely on DR then I would have chosen another brand.

Years ago I went to a Toyota car club dinner and it was easily the most boring night of my life.  There was not the remotest interest from any member in talking anything but Toyota but at least in this forum there is still some room to look at what the other manufacturers are doing.
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: verysimplejason on November 09, 2013, 09:55:07 AM
I think opinions are welcome here, particularly those rationally backed up.  Bashing those who do not agree with you - not so much.  Its a human tendency to defend your territory, but going overboard is the issue.
I agree.  As was pointed out on his DPR thread, the real issue was not really what he said, but how he said it.  Many people here, myself included, repeatedly agreed with him that Canon sensors have less low ISO DR than other brands. Apparently, that wasn't good enough, because we also questioned the impact of that difference, and pointed out that the sensor is only one component of a camera, and for many people, other aspects of system performance are of greater importance.

Besides, he's taken his fight to DPR:  http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52443217 (http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/52443217)
Fun read.  ::)

I enjoyed the irony that he mentions 'religion' but denies having an 'agenda' and being on a 'crusade'....and yet he has signed up with new accounts on CR at least eight times (that have been obvious enough for me to notice, anyway) in just the past three weeks, posting a couple or a couple dozen times before moving to a new name (presumably due to repeated bans).  If that's not a crusade, what is?   IIRC, two of those new sign ups occurred after he started his DPR rant, which begs the question...if CR is such a 'joke', why is he trying so desperately to continue posting here?

He's also in Nikonrumors still championing DR of D800.  :)
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: scottkinfw on November 09, 2013, 10:37:41 AM
Very well put.

The other site called him a troll.  May be.  He seems to be OCD with a need to pursue his mission and the world to see him as the expert.  But then what?  Everyone sell our gear and get what he recommends?  Something very wrong with him.  Who would bother to get kicked off a site twice, and then carry the rant on at another site, where they are tiring of him?  Very maladaptive behavior.

sek

Many of these trolls unfortunately suffer from Aspergers.

"Asperger Syndrome is a developmental disorder. People with AS don’t have cognitive or language deficits. (If they do, they’re diagnosed with autism.) But they do have a difficult time interacting, communicating and connecting with others. They’re unable to pick up on social cues."

I have come across another forum baiter with similar characteristics: the constant need to push his opinion; obsessiveness; goad others; and sign himself as belonging to some official organization that he thinks somehow adds credence to him.
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: Rienzphotoz on November 09, 2013, 12:15:55 PM

if CR is such a 'joke', why is he trying so desperately to continue posting here?
I think he is your stalker  ;D ... you should get a restraining order.
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: Valvebounce on November 09, 2013, 03:26:57 PM
Hi folks,
Aspergers syndrome is a real problem for both sufferers and family, a dear friend of my family decided that the prime minister was in danger from terrorists long before 9/11 when we were still dealing wih the IRA. As a teen he decided, after his letters went unacknowledged, to acquire the ingredients for a bomb and post it to downing street un-assembled I hasten to add. This naturally caused quite a problem for the whole family.

So if this person has Aspergers then we should feel sorry for him and his family, breaking his obsession wil take serious proffesional help.

Of course he may just be a tit! ;D

Cheers Graham.


Many of these trolls unfortunately suffer from Aspergers.

"Asperger Syndrome is a developmental disorder. People with AS don’t have cognitive or language deficits. (If they do, they’re diagnosed with autism.) But they do have a difficult time interacting, communicating and connecting with others. They’re unable to pick up on social cues."

I have come across another forum baiter with similar characteristics: the constant need to push his opinion; obsessiveness; goad others; and sign himself as belonging to some official organization that he thinks somehow adds credence to him.
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: ejenner on November 09, 2013, 11:53:14 PM
And going even more down this road, a kid I know with Aspergers is not even told that he has a/any condition.  I guess I don't know enough to make that call, but it seems to me that however good the techniques for allowing him to cope, to not even know that you have an issue seems just wrong.

Having said that, I can't imagine this kid being that much of a tit, on forums or otherwise.
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: Arctic Photo on November 10, 2013, 01:38:35 AM
Hi folks,
Aspergers syndrome is a real problem for both sufferers and family, a dear friend of my family decided that the prime minister was in danger from terrorists long before 9/11 when we were still dealing wih the IRA. As a teen he decided, after his letters went unacknowledged, to acquire the ingredients for a bomb and post it to downing street un-assembled I hasten to add. This naturally caused quite a problem for the whole family.

So if this person has Aspergers then we should feel sorry for him and his family, breaking his obsession wil take serious proffesional help.

Of course he may just be a tit! ;D

Cheers Graham.


Many of these trolls unfortunately suffer from Aspergers.

"Asperger Syndrome is a developmental disorder. People with AS don’t have cognitive or language deficits. (If they do, they’re diagnosed with autism.) But they do have a difficult time interacting, communicating and connecting with others. They’re unable to pick up on social cues."

I have come across another forum baiter with similar characteristics: the constant need to push his opinion; obsessiveness; goad others; and sign himself as belonging to some official organization that he thinks somehow adds credence to him.
I wonder where this guy would send the un-assembled bomb though. Canon? CR-Guy? Neuro? Maybe Nikon for failing to support him publicly?
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: Rienzphotoz on November 10, 2013, 01:39:45 AM
Hi folks,
Aspergers syndrome is a real problem for both sufferers and family, a dear friend of my family decided that the prime minister was in danger from terrorists long before 9/11 when we were still dealing wih the IRA. As a teen he decided, after his letters went unacknowledged, to acquire the ingredients for a bomb and post it to downing street un-assembled I hasten to add. This naturally caused quite a problem for the whole family.
Yikes :o ... that is a big problem for the whole family.
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: Rienzphotoz on November 10, 2013, 01:42:49 AM
I wonder where this guy would send the un-assembled bomb though. Canon? CR-Guy? Neuro? Maybe Nikon for failing to support him publicly?
100% to Neuro ;D
The said accused has a special affinity towards Neuro ;D
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: jeffa4444 on November 12, 2013, 09:32:06 AM
The MP race is becoming futile I suspect that if Canon Rumors are correct that Canon are bringing out a number of new lenses in 2014 that is partially because the resolution you can get from 24-36MP sensors is not matched by the nyquist of the current lenses so while Nikon may have a 36MP sensor on the D800 /800E how many of the Nikor lenses can resolve the detail? The resolution is tied to the pixel pitch all of which have been getting smaller and thus show up the weaknesses of optics. 
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: 9VIII on November 15, 2013, 01:55:01 PM
The MP race is becoming futile I suspect that if Canon Rumors are correct that Canon are bringing out a number of new lenses in 2014 that is partially because the resolution you can get from 24-36MP sensors is not matched by the nyquist of the current lenses so while Nikon may have a 36MP sensor on the D800 /800E how many of the Nikor lenses can resolve the detail? The resolution is tied to the pixel pitch all of which have been getting smaller and thus show up the weaknesses of optics.


I think you may have a point, but that point will be more valid when we're talking about 100MP sensors. Remember that images taken using a Bayer filter are not getting full RGB data per pixel, so whatever your target resolution is, you could benefit from quadrupling that number and downscaling. Just the fact that most cameras still use an anti-aliasing filter should be enough evidence that our current lenses are giving a lot more detail than we're actually capturing. The purpose of the AA filter is to eliminate patterns in small details that trick the sensor, if we had higher resolution sensors we would actually be recording that detail instead of throwing it away.
Title: Re: Dynamic range Nikon/Sony vs Canon
Post by: Arctic Photo on November 16, 2013, 03:46:21 PM
I wonder where this guy would send the un-assembled bomb though. Canon? CR-Guy? Neuro? Maybe Nikon for failing to support him publicly?
100% to Neuro ;D
The said accused has a special affinity towards Neuro ;D
I know, I was here all the way under another name. Can't say I miss it.