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Gear Talk => Technical Support => Topic started by: adamcoe on December 12, 2013, 11:42:27 PM

Title: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: adamcoe on December 12, 2013, 11:42:27 PM
Anyone have an idea how stringent Canon is about signing up for CPS? I have a 24-105L that got a small bit of sand in the focus ring while shooting on a windy day at the beach, so I wouldn't mind paying the hundred bucks and have it and my 60D cleaned...full disclosure I am not a pro...I've been paid to do the odd band shoot here and there, but nothing remotely serious.
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: alexanderferdinand on December 13, 2013, 05:51:48 AM
Qualification is depending on the equipment.
Look at Canon online, what gear is necessary to qualify.
And what the benefits are.
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: Marsu42 on December 13, 2013, 09:49:31 AM
Anyone have an idea how stringent Canon is about signing up for CPS?

Pretty stringent I'd say, at least in the EU - you need to get to the required gear together to qualify for the cps level you want. They do state on their cps website that if you don't you can e-mail them and apply anyway for special circumstances, but that sounds like it's made for pros with a huge stock of gear who somehow fall in a gap in the cps setup and are allowed to a higher level anyway.

Edit: Note that cps gear changes all the time, old items are phased out - but to qualify you just need a serial number that nobody else has registered, so if you buy a completely broken 5d2 which is in a thousand pieces it's worth as much cps-wise as a a pristine, new 5d3 (that's for the EU cps criterias, US seems to differ).
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: takesome1 on December 13, 2013, 10:26:11 AM
How stringent they are is based on how honest you are.

There are two requirements, equipment and this;

"Professional Image Makers

Self-employed or an employee of a professional imaging business."

No one ever checked to see if I qualified. They take you on your word.
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: neuroanatomist on December 13, 2013, 11:03:44 AM
As others have stated, qualification level depends on gear, certain Canon equipment gets you points, you need enough points to qualify at a given level.  Since you mention 'paying the hundred bucks' I assume you're thinking Gold level, that means 20 points.  You mention a 60D and 24-105L, and I hope you have more than that - your 60D gets you no points, your 24-105L is worth 8 points, not even the 10 points you need for Silver level. 

But an even more important issue is this:

I have a 24-105L that got a small bit of sand in the focus ring while shooting on a windy day at the beach

Assuming you have the points to qualify, you can pay your hundred bucks…but for the issue you describe with your lens, you'd be taking advantage of the 20% repair discount (and maybe the 3-day turnaround), but not the free clean & check…that doesn't cover anything that requires them to do any disassembly. 

Quote from: CPS Terms and Conditions
11-point EF Lens Maintenance Service:
• Clean External Lens Optics
• Clean External Lens Body
• Check Lens Attachment and Removal
• Check Camera/Lens Communication
• Check External Lens Barrel
• Check Operation of Focus, Iris and Zoom Rings
• Check Operation of Tripod Collar (if applicable)
• Check Aperture Function
• Perform Simple Image Test (exposure, color balance, resolution)
• Tighten External Screws
• Verify Firmware Version and Update (if required)

I was at the Canon Service Center in Jamesburg, NJ earlier this year (I was in the area for business, and took my 1D X in person for the AF service recall).  While I was waiting (they did it for me in less than an hour), someone asked about CPS cleaning and the rep told him it was good for bodies (they clean the sensor, mirror, and focus screen), but basically worthless for lenses, that you were better off waiting until your lenses needed service, since they do all that clean/check stuff as part of that anyway, and you can certainly clean the front and rear elements and wipe off the barrel yourself.

I'm not sure how much they'll charge you for cleaning the sand out of the focus ring, but I am pretty sure it will be much less than $500, meaning spending $100 for a 20% repair discount isn't really going to be cost effective unless you have more gear that needs repair or plan to send multiple bodies in for cleaning (or send your 60D in several times).
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: Mt Spokane Photography on December 13, 2013, 11:36:43 AM
The requirements are the CPS site:  While they do not actually checkup on you, they do expect that you are truthful.  The Nikon equivalent requires confirmation of your professional status by a existing member.
http://www.cps.usa.canon.com/about_cps/about.shtml (http://www.cps.usa.canon.com/about_cps/about.shtml)
.
Canon Professional Services (CPS) provides exceptional benefits for individual full-time imaging professionals. CPS members receive exclusive phone and e-mail support, expedited and discounted services and repairs, equipment evaluation loans, service loans, on-site support at select events and shows, plus discounts on Canon Live Learning workshops, and more.
Points System                                 
 CPS assigned a points value to eligible equipment to better accommodate professionals, who own various types of Pro Canon equipment, achieve their desired membership level. Points are determined by the assigned point value of your professional Canon equipment (see Eligible CPS Product list). Points can be accrued to qualify for the various CPS membership levels.
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: adamcoe on December 16, 2013, 07:01:54 PM
Thanks for the replies everyone...yeah I looked into it and I definitely don't qualify for CPS. Got a ballpark estimate (just over the web, they haven't seen the lens in person) from a shop in New Orleans (I work on a cruise ship sailing out of there) and they said it'd be in the 200-250 range to get it cleaned out and dealt with. It seemed perhaps a little (?) high as the lens itself only cost 700ish and I can't imagine it would take more than perhaps an hour and a half but I'll admit to being pretty out of my depth when it comes to these things. Or maybe Canon techs just have a great union :P

Anyway gang thanks for the info, much appreciated
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: scottkinfw on December 16, 2013, 11:08:36 PM
If you have the money, you can play.
I am far from a pro (unless one lives on the block) but I am a CPS member.  It saves a lot on shipping and cleaning, service, etc.

sek

Anyone have an idea how stringent Canon is about signing up for CPS? I have a 24-105L that got a small bit of sand in the focus ring while shooting on a windy day at the beach, so I wouldn't mind paying the hundred bucks and have it and my 60D cleaned...full disclosure I am not a pro...I've been paid to do the odd band shoot here and there, but nothing remotely serious.
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: emag on December 17, 2013, 09:24:41 AM
FWIW - I'm sure there are a number of shops that can do the work fast and at a reasonable price.  I've used Royal Camera Service in Illinois for lenses and bodies.  Fast and reasonable.  RCS is near Chicago, I'm in Florida. There have been other threads over the years regarding this topic.  You could also ask a local camera shop who they would recommend.  If you can hear/feel that sand while you're focusing you need to do something fast - sand is not the preferred lubricant for lenses.
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: Schruminator on December 17, 2013, 10:05:14 AM
Are there any other benefits of joining CPS? That is, none of my gear has needed repairs and while cleaning is free a couple of times a year, shipping is not (if I recall)-- so it pretty much cancels out on my end.

So, besides a fancy neck strap, is there anything else an amateur photog like me is forgetting? I've read through the list, but I didn't feel like anything jumped out at me.
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: stipotle on December 17, 2013, 11:01:24 AM
Are there any other benefits of joining CPS? That is, none of my gear has needed repairs and while cleaning is free a couple of times a year, shipping is not (if I recall)-- so it pretty much cancels out on my end.

So, besides a fancy neck strap, is there anything else an amateur photog like me is forgetting? I've read through the list, but I didn't feel like anything jumped out at me.

CPS Loaners. With Gold, you can try out a body or lens for a little over a week for free. I think any model, one time. Free shipping to you (you pay the shipping back). I think with gold, shipping is free 1 way for everything.

I signed up when I needed a repair and it paid for itself.
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: Mt Spokane Photography on December 17, 2013, 11:07:07 AM
Are there any other benefits of joining CPS? That is, none of my gear has needed repairs and while cleaning is free a couple of times a year, shipping is not (if I recall)-- so it pretty much cancels out on my end.

So, besides a fancy neck strap, is there anything else an amateur photog like me is forgetting? I've read through the list, but I didn't feel like anything jumped out at me.
If you are a professional working and using your equipment every day, you are going to need service.  If you are a casual shooter, CPS is not aimed at you, and you might very well not get much benefit.
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: Schruminator on December 17, 2013, 11:35:41 AM

CPS Loaners. With Gold, you can try out a body or lens for a little over a week for free. I think any model, one time. Free shipping to you (you pay the shipping back). I think with gold, shipping is free 1 way for everything.

I signed up when I needed a repair and it paid for itself.

Ah, I forgot about the loaners-- that might be fun. It's too bad I'm not closer to one of their centers so I could skip out on the shipping!
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: awinphoto on December 17, 2013, 11:39:36 AM
CPS is aimed for Professionals, and i'm sure if they were to find out that you were not a professional, you could lose your status.  Being both a professional and a CPS member, i find threads like these kind of sad, but, for those who take advantage and bend the rules for your own gain, karma always comes back around... 
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: 7enderbender on December 17, 2013, 02:19:58 PM
Are there any other benefits of joining CPS? That is, none of my gear has needed repairs and while cleaning is free a couple of times a year, shipping is not (if I recall)-- so it pretty much cancels out on my end.

So, besides a fancy neck strap, is there anything else an amateur photog like me is forgetting? I've read through the list, but I didn't feel like anything jumped out at me.

I qualify for Gold status and was happy to sign up when I needed a repair of my 200mm. And they were fine with me upgrading to gold after the lens broke.

Benefits: discount on the repair, sold the silly strap, free cleanings and a few loaners. Turned out to be a wash.
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: joshmurrah on December 17, 2013, 02:58:56 PM
Wow... did a quick look and I definitely have the "points" for any level I'd want, but not the desire to spend the $ on the membership nor am I a pro...   I'm just glad they'll sell the pro gear to mere mortals like myself I guess :)
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: JohnDizzo15 on December 17, 2013, 06:44:12 PM
CPS is aimed for Professionals, and i'm sure if they were to find out that you were not a professional, you could lose your status.  Being both a professional and a CPS member, i find threads like these kind of sad, but, for those who take advantage and bend the rules for your own gain, karma always comes back around...

What is sad are posts like these as they appear to be judgmental and pompous. What, may I ask are the criteria for being a "professional?" Where is the line drawn? Primary source of income? Your main job? How many gigs you've done? How often someone has paid for an image of yours? The level of ambiguity to this determination is huge to an extent to which I don't believe you have given any thought.

I don't quite understand how anyone is taking advantage or bending the rules. I'm quite certain that if Canon/CPS was overly concerned about making their memberships exclusive only to high level pros, they would do so. I tend to believe based on the way things are set up that they are really only concerned about whether you have spent enough money on their stuff.

I have a career which pays me very well which allows me to have the luxury of owning a lot of gear without having to do photography as a job. I do paid gigs for fun here and there and have plenty of gear which doesn't all necessarily get used on those jobs. Does that make me not a professional? Am I not qualified to get my equipment worked on?

Canon sells products and provides a way for you to get them serviced which also costs money. Who is anyone to tell another photog they shouldn't be allowed to have membership if they are willing to pay the money for both?

I'm pretty sure there is a higher likelihood of running into some bad karma when you are being wrongfully judgmental of others and/or being full of yourself.
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: Random Orbits on December 17, 2013, 09:41:52 PM
CPS is aimed for Professionals, and i'm sure if they were to find out that you were not a professional, you could lose your status.  Being both a professional and a CPS member, i find threads like these kind of sad, but, for those who take advantage and bend the rules for your own gain, karma always comes back around...

What is sad are posts like these as they appear to be judgmental and pompous. What, may I ask are the criteria for being a "professional?" Where is the line drawn? Primary source of income? Your main job? How many gigs you've done? How often someone has paid for an image of yours? The level of ambiguity to this determination is huge to an extent to which I don't believe you have given any thought.

I don't quite understand how anyone is taking advantage or bending the rules. I'm quite certain that if Canon/CPS was overly concerned about making their memberships exclusive only to high level pros, they would do so. I tend to believe based on the way things are set up that they are really only concerned about whether you have spent enough money on their stuff.

I have a career which pays me very well which allows me to have the luxury of owning a lot of gear without having to do photography as a job. I do paid gigs for fun here and there and have plenty of gear which doesn't all necessarily get used on those jobs. Does that make me not a professional? Am I not qualified to get my equipment worked on?

Canon sells products and provides a way for you to get them serviced which also costs money. Who is anyone to tell another photog they shouldn't be allowed to have membership if they are willing to pay the money for both?

I'm pretty sure there is a higher likelihood of running into some bad karma when you are being wrongfully judgmental of others and/or being full of yourself.

Well, professional is somewhat defined on the US Canon website (see below).   Full-time is a pretty high bar and would exclude you and me.

Canon Professional Services (CPS) provides exceptional benefits for individual full-time imaging professionals. CPS members receive exclusive phone and e-mail support, expedited and discounted services and repairs, equipment evaluation loans, service loans, on-site support at select events and shows, plus discounts on Canon Live Learning workshops, and more.
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: JohnDizzo15 on December 17, 2013, 10:04:21 PM
CPS is aimed for Professionals, and i'm sure if they were to find out that you were not a professional, you could lose your status.  Being both a professional and a CPS member, i find threads like these kind of sad, but, for those who take advantage and bend the rules for your own gain, karma always comes back around...

What is sad are posts like these as they appear to be judgmental and pompous. What, may I ask are the criteria for being a "professional?" Where is the line drawn? Primary source of income? Your main job? How many gigs you've done? How often someone has paid for an image of yours? The level of ambiguity to this determination is huge to an extent to which I don't believe you have given any thought.

I don't quite understand how anyone is taking advantage or bending the rules. I'm quite certain that if Canon/CPS was overly concerned about making their memberships exclusive only to high level pros, they would do so. I tend to believe based on the way things are set up that they are really only concerned about whether you have spent enough money on their stuff.

I have a career which pays me very well which allows me to have the luxury of owning a lot of gear without having to do photography as a job. I do paid gigs for fun here and there and have plenty of gear which doesn't all necessarily get used on those jobs. Does that make me not a professional? Am I not qualified to get my equipment worked on?

Canon sells products and provides a way for you to get them serviced which also costs money. Who is anyone to tell another photog they shouldn't be allowed to have membership if they are willing to pay the money for both?

I'm pretty sure there is a higher likelihood of running into some bad karma when you are being wrongfully judgmental of others and/or being full of yourself.

Well, professional is somewhat defined on the US Canon website (see below).   Full-time is a pretty high bar and would exclude you and me.

Canon Professional Services (CPS) provides exceptional benefits for individual full-time imaging professionals. CPS members receive exclusive phone and e-mail support, expedited and discounted services and repairs, equipment evaluation loans, service loans, on-site support at select events and shows, plus discounts on Canon Live Learning workshops, and more.

Nice. Thanks for the info. Although I still don't think that the responsibility of determining whether one qualifies is incumbent upon the consumer vs canon (with regard to whether you are pro enough). If they shared the same attitude as awin, none of us would have access very easily.

My feeling also is that the "full-time" part would actually exclude many of us here in this forum alone. Wondering how many people have photography as a full-time job as almost all the people I know that do this rather seriously also have a regular job of some sort alongside photography. I just think there is too much grey area involved for anyone to say that many are taking advantage or bending the rules.
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: Skatol on December 17, 2013, 10:37:45 PM
CPS is aimed for Professionals, and i'm sure if they were to find out that you were not a professional, you could lose your status.  Being both a professional and a CPS member, i find threads like these kind of sad, but, for those who take advantage and bend the rules for your own gain, karma always comes back around...

What is sad are posts like these as they appear to be judgmental and pompous. What, may I ask are the criteria for being a "professional?" Where is the line drawn? Primary source of income? Your main job? How many gigs you've done? How often someone has paid for an image of yours? The level of ambiguity to this determination is huge to an extent to which I don't believe you have given any thought.

I don't quite understand how anyone is taking advantage or bending the rules. I'm quite certain that if Canon/CPS was overly concerned about making their memberships exclusive only to high level pros, they would do so. I tend to believe based on the way things are set up that they are really only concerned about whether you have spent enough money on their stuff.

I have a career which pays me very well which allows me to have the luxury of owning a lot of gear without having to do photography as a job. I do paid gigs for fun here and there and have plenty of gear which doesn't all necessarily get used on those jobs. Does that make me not a professional? Am I not qualified to get my equipment worked on?

Canon sells products and provides a way for you to get them serviced which also costs money. Who is anyone to tell another photog they shouldn't be allowed to have membership if they are willing to pay the money for both?

I'm pretty sure there is a higher likelihood of running into some bad karma when you are being wrongfully judgmental of others and/or being full of yourself.

Well, professional is somewhat defined on the US Canon website (see below).   Full-time is a pretty high bar and would exclude you and me.

Canon Professional Services (CPS) provides exceptional benefits for individual full-time imaging professionals. CPS members receive exclusive phone and e-mail support, expedited and discounted services and repairs, equipment evaluation loans, service loans, on-site support at select events and shows, plus discounts on Canon Live Learning workshops, and more.

Nice. Thanks for the info. Although I still don't think that the responsibility of determining whether one qualifies is incumbent upon the consumer vs canon. If they shared the same attitude as awin, none of us would have access do easily.

My feeling also is that the "full-time" part would actually exclude many of us here in this forum alone. Wondering how many people have photography as a full-time job as almost all the people I know that do this as rather seriously also have a regular job of some sort.

Just my two cents but what qualifies as full time?  According the ACA (Obamacare) 30hours per week is considered full time.  I have a regular full time job that pays for this outrageously expensive hobby.  When not working that job I run a website showcasing my work, some of which is for sale (haven't sold anything yet).
Included in this is travel time to and from location.  Time spent on location.  Then the hours of post.  I could easily spend 30 hours per week on my hobby.  At least this is a job I enjoy.
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: Mt Spokane Photography on December 17, 2013, 10:39:50 PM

My feeling also is that the "full-time" part would actually exclude many of us here in this forum alone. Wondering how many people have photography as a full-time job as almost all the people I know that do this rather seriously also have a regular job of some sort alongside photography. I just think there is too much grey area involved for anyone to say that many are taking advantage or bending the rules.

It would certainly exclude many here, CR does not require or even recommend that members be full time professionals. 
 
Canon's definition seems to be guidance, and its pretty good guidance, since many who qualify by number of points would not benefit much if any from membership.
 
I agree that it should not be a bone of contention.
 
Christmas time is a time of lots of stress.  Relax folks, and have a merry Christmas and Holiday Season.
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: expatinasia on December 17, 2013, 10:39:50 PM
Anyone have an idea how stringent Canon is about signing up for CPS?

This very much depends on where in the world you are.

Where I am they are very strict, and require proof of working as a pro photographer. In other parts of the world it seems that they are much more relaxed about it, but then the perks are different too.

Good luck!
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: JohnDizzo15 on December 17, 2013, 11:23:16 PM

My feeling also is that the "full-time" part would actually exclude many of us here in this forum alone. Wondering how many people have photography as a full-time job as almost all the people I know that do this rather seriously also have a regular job of some sort alongside photography. I just think there is too much grey area involved for anyone to say that many are taking advantage or bending the rules.

It would certainly exclude many here, CR does not require or even recommend that members be full time professionals. 
 
Canon's definition seems to be guidance, and its pretty good guidance, since many who qualify by number of points would not benefit much if any from membership.
 
I agree that it should not be a bone of contention.
 
Christmas time is a time of lots of stress.  Relax folks, and have a merry Christmas and Holiday Season.

Lol. Agreed.

Although I was trying to relax, my only Christmas wish was for a CPS membership only to have my dreams shattered by awin when he helped me realize that I'm not pro enough for one.  ;D
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: serendipidy on December 17, 2013, 11:28:29 PM
I don't think I would join any club that didn't want me for a member ;D

PS- Lots of places define professional as getting any payment (even once and for any amount) for your work. Recently, a US college basketball player had to forego a monetary prize ( I think it was $20,000) for a half court shooting contest that he won, because, if he accepted the prize money, it made him a "professional" basketball player and thus ineligible to continue to receive his college scholarship.

Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: neuroanatomist on December 17, 2013, 11:44:04 PM
Quote from: CPS
Membership is available to individuals (self-employed or employed with a professional imaging company) who play a direct role in the creation of moving or still images on a full-time basis. Applicants must meet Canon equipment requirements to enroll.

Self-employed or employed with a professional imaging company.  Pete Souza is not self-employed, nor is the US Government a professional imaging company.  So according to Canon's definition, the Official White House Photographer is not a professional photographer.  Whatever. 
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: jhpeterson on December 18, 2013, 12:36:20 AM
CPS is aimed for Professionals, and i'm sure if they were to find out that you were not a professional, you could lose your status.  Being both a professional and a CPS member, i find threads like these kind of sad, but, for those who take advantage and bend the rules for your own gain, karma always comes back around...

What is sad are posts like these as they appear to be judgmental and pompous. What, may I ask are the criteria for being a "professional?" Where is the line drawn? Primary source of income? Your main job? How many gigs you've done? How often someone has paid for an image of yours? The level of ambiguity to this determination is huge to an extent to which I don't believe you have given any thought.

I don't quite understand how anyone is taking advantage or bending the rules. I'm quite certain that if Canon/CPS was overly concerned about making their memberships exclusive only to high level pros, they would do so. I tend to believe based on the way things are set up that they are really only concerned about whether you have spent enough money on their stuff.

I have a career which pays me very well which allows me to have the luxury of owning a lot of gear without having to do photography as a job. I do paid gigs for fun here and there and have plenty of gear which doesn't all necessarily get used on those jobs. Does that make me not a professional? Am I not qualified to get my equipment worked on?

Canon sells products and provides a way for you to get them serviced which also costs money. Who is anyone to tell another photog they shouldn't be allowed to have membership if they are willing to pay the money for both?

I'm pretty sure there is a higher likelihood of running into some bad karma when you are being wrongfully judgmental of others and/or being full of yourself.
John, I don't mean to be pompous or judgemental, but I quite disagree.
I don't have a "day job" to fall back on, so I think it's only fair that Canon looks after those who depend on their equipment for a livelihood.
Being a self-employed editorial photographer is fraught with enough challenges without the worry that your camera manufacturer doesn't have your back. In this day where publications expect content for free, let's just say there are many other careers that, in comparison, pay very well. Too many times I've covered events where the hobbyists have equipment that's better and newer than mine. Most likely theirs has seen far less wear, as they don't have to come up with usable images day after day. If they miss a shot because their gear fails, yes, it's a real disappointment.  If I miss mine, I've probably lost a payday, perhaps a hard-won client, as well as being out of work until it's fixed.
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: RunAndGun on December 18, 2013, 01:40:42 AM
One of the most accepted definitions of "professional" that I used to hear was that you derived the majority of your income(at least 51%) from it, to be considered a professional.  I think most would agree that hours per week have nothing to do with it.  I have weeks where I don't come anywhere close to 30-40 hrs of work and I have an "off season" where I may or may not pick up my camera for over a month.  I'm a professional by many definitions and 100% of my income for the last 16 or so years has come from being a shooter.  With that being said, I believe a lot of "non-pros" are taking offense for the wrong reasons.  I think many may feel they are bing "looked down upon".  I don't think that's the case.  Just because you're not a "professional" photographer doesn't mean you're not a great photographer, or even that you don't conduct yourself in a professional manner.  I believe most that are speaking out against non-pro's joining CPS, at least this is my viewpoint, is that because the non-pro's can potentially (unintentionally)adversely affect the service that the working pro's need from CPS.  The perfect example popped into my head, because this is about the time of year I start thinking about sending my broadcast lenses into Fujinon for clean & check's and to be serviced if they need them.  It's a first come, first served basis.  So if you're first in line you're in and out in a day or two, if you're 27th in line, well… it's gonna be a while.  So look at it that way.  If a working pro has something happen to a lens, he needs it repaired as fast as possible, but what if he sends it in and there are other repairs in front of him and they are non-pro's that don't "need" the fast service(but have the same level of membership) and they could have just sent their gear in to be repaired through normal Canon consumer channels.

We can argue semantics all day long, but you know in your heart if you are really a full-time, working pro that needs this kind of service and support.
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign uph
Post by: drummstikk on December 18, 2013, 01:48:46 AM
Too many times I've covered events where the hobbyists have equipment that's better and newer than mine. Most likely theirs has seen far less wear, as they don't have to come up with usable images day after day. If they miss a shot because their gear fails, yes, it's a real disappointment.  If I miss mine, I've probably lost a payday, perhaps a hard-won client, as well as being out of work until it's fixed.

Ironic, isn't it? if you make your living (or part of it) in photography, you can't afford photography equipment. Certainly not the *newest* photography equipment.

How many times have I found myself in the situation you describe? Too many to count.

There was the college indoor track meet where I was shooting with my 50D with a rented 135 f/2.0 right next to a guy with a Nikon D3S with the 200mm 2.0 and a monopod screwed into the base of the camera instead of the lens tripod collar. That poor camera tripod socket must have been under more stress than spandex shorts on a sumo wrestler.

I recall the guy with the brand-spankin' new 1D-X fitted with a 50mm 1.2 and 600ex flash trying to do bounce flash under 30 foot high black ceiling while I struggled along with my 7D with 24-105 and a couple of radio-triggered 283's.

Anyway, I voluntarily abstain from CPS. I didn't know they were charging money now. That's a deal breaker in itself. I would not give up the 15K or so a year I average in photography, but I don't think it fulfill's the spirit of the membership requirements as I understand them. When I was a full-time newspaper photographer and CPS member 15-odd years ago, the main benefit was expedited repairs, but my local emporium  uses a repair vendor that can turn around a shutter replacement in a 40D in less than a week. Plus, I happen to be in a loose, informal association of "part-time pros" who lend each other equipment in emergencies or for testing.

So, speaking for myself only, who needs CPS?
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: JohnDizzo15 on December 18, 2013, 02:01:56 AM
CPS is aimed for Professionals, and i'm sure if they were to find out that you were not a professional, you could lose your status.  Being both a professional and a CPS member, i find threads like these kind of sad, but, for those who take advantage and bend the rules for your own gain, karma always comes back around...

What is sad are posts like these as they appear to be judgmental and pompous. What, may I ask are the criteria for being a "professional?" Where is the line drawn? Primary source of income? Your main job? How many gigs you've done? How often someone has paid for an image of yours? The level of ambiguity to this determination is huge to an extent to which I don't believe you have given any thought.

I don't quite understand how anyone is taking advantage or bending the rules. I'm quite certain that if Canon/CPS was overly concerned about making their memberships exclusive only to high level pros, they would do so. I tend to believe based on the way things are set up that they are really only concerned about whether you have spent enough money on their stuff.

I have a career which pays me very well which allows me to have the luxury of owning a lot of gear without having to do photography as a job. I do paid gigs for fun here and there and have plenty of gear which doesn't all necessarily get used on those jobs. Does that make me not a professional? Am I not qualified to get my equipment worked on?

Canon sells products and provides a way for you to get them serviced which also costs money. Who is anyone to tell another photog they shouldn't be allowed to have membership if they are willing to pay the money for both?

I'm pretty sure there is a higher likelihood of running into some bad karma when you are being wrongfully judgmental of others and/or being full of yourself.
John, I don't mean to be pompous or judgemental, but I quite disagree.
I don't have a "day job" to fall back on, so I think it's only fair that Canon looks after those who depend on their equipment for a livelihood.
Being a self-employed editorial photographer is fraught with enough challenges without the worry that your camera manufacturer doesn't have your back. In this day where publications expect content for free, let's just say there are many other careers that, in comparison, pay very well. Too many times I've covered events where the hobbyists have equipment that's better and newer than mine. Most likely theirs has seen far less wear, as they don't have to come up with usable images day after day. If they miss a shot because their gear fails, yes, it's a real disappointment.  If I miss mine, I've probably lost a payday, perhaps a hard-won client, as well as being out of work until it's fixed.

Definitely don't think you are either one of those things. Awin on the other hand....

Anyhow, while I respect your opinion, I still fail to understand how not allowing certain classes of photographers to have membership would help your cause. As it stands, there is a tiered setup for membership which includes one type that has expedited service as well as other perks. I know several photographers that regularly utilize that membership and have never had a problem having all their needs met in a timely fashion. So unless having such an open enrollment process adversely affects your ability to have your needs met somehow, I don't see what the issue is.

The reason Awin's comments bothered me was because they were full of assumption and judgment all of which were unfounded.

When it comes down to it, there are countless variations in need and types of photographers who do all different levels of work out there. As such, the grey area for what would be defined as "professional" is huge. Do we base it on generated income, number of jobs, frequency, type of work, etc?
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: expatinasia on December 18, 2013, 02:40:02 AM
As it stands, there is a tiered setup for membership which includes one type that has expedited service as well as other perks.

Just so we are all clear, what you write there is not a global standard.

There is only tiered setup in certain countries, and as this is a global forum with members from around the world I just wanted to stress that.

Where I am, you are either a member or not, there is no tiered setup. And from what I have read on these forums and others, the benefits can be very different as well.
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: JohnDizzo15 on December 18, 2013, 02:42:23 AM
One of the most accepted definitions of "professional" that I used to hear was that you derived the majority of your income(at least 51%) from it, to be considered a professional.  I think most would agree that hours per week have nothing to do with it.  I have weeks where I don't come anywhere close to 30-40 hrs of work and I have an "off season" where I may or may not pick up my camera for over a month.  I'm a professional by many definitions and 100% of my income for the last 16 or so years has come from being a shooter.  With that being said, I believe a lot of "non-pros" are taking offense for the wrong reasons.  I think many may feel they are bing "looked down upon".  I don't think that's the case.  Just because you're not a "professional" photographer doesn't mean you're not a great photographer, or even that you don't conduct yourself in a professional manner.  I believe most that are speaking out against non-pro's joining CPS, at least this is my viewpoint, is that because the non-pro's can potentially (unintentionally)adversely affect the service that the working pro's need from CPS.  The perfect example popped into my head, because this is about the time of year I start thinking about sending my broadcast lenses into Fujinon for clean & check's and to be serviced if they need them.  It's a first come, first served basis.  So if you're first in line you're in and out in a day or two, if you're 27th in line, well… it's gonna be a while.  So look at it that way.  If a working pro has something happen to a lens, he needs it repaired as fast as possible, but what if he sends it in and there are other repairs in front of him and they are non-pro's that don't "need" the fast service(but have the same level of membership) and they could have just sent their gear in to be repaired through normal Canon consumer channels.

We can argue semantics all day long, but you know in your heart if you are really a full-time, working pro that needs this kind of service and support.

While I can accept the cleanliness of the 51% of your income standard, I still believe there is grey area. For example, I make roughly 115k/year in my job. I'm sure guys like neuro make even more. So even if I made 50k/year from photography, I would still not be considered a pro by this measure. At 50k for the year on photo income, I am certain that is more than a fair number of photogs that currently identify themselves as full time pros.

Let's take it in another direction. What if one made 5-10k/shoot and only did 10-15 shoots a year? Is his need more or less important than the guy that does 150 shoots a year and makes less?

As a rule of thumb, I always have issue with instances where an individual or group has decided that they (or their work) are more important than another somehow. Canon as a company has decided that it is a good idea to offer this service and not make it overly difficult to get it. If a photog has a need, qualifies based on their gear, who are we to decide that what they need the service for is less important than a full-time professional's?

Furthermore, assuming the level of expedited service is affected somehow, they also offer loaners when your gear requires more time to be worked on than you can afford. So again, I fail to see how us lowly non full timers don't deserve the right to shell out our hard earned cash to receive the same level of service if we so choose.
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: JohnDizzo15 on December 18, 2013, 02:46:17 AM
As it stands, there is a tiered setup for membership which includes one type that has expedited service as well as other perks.

Just so we are all clear, what you write there is not a global standard.

There is only tiered setup in certain countries, and as this is a global forum with members from around the world I just wanted to stress that.

Where I am, you are either a member or not, there is no tiered setup. And from what I have read on these forums and others, the benefits can be very different as well.

My apologies for not recognizing that. I was unaware of the lack of tiers in other countries. Thank you for the info. I am speaking from the viewpoint of one who resides in the US (specifically in California).
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: 7enderbender on December 19, 2013, 09:50:33 AM
CPS is aimed for Professionals, and i'm sure if they were to find out that you were not a professional, you could lose your status.  Being both a professional and a CPS member, i find threads like these kind of sad, but, for those who take advantage and bend the rules for your own gain, karma always comes back around...

What is sad are posts like these as they appear to be judgmental and pompous. What, may I ask are the criteria for being a "professional?" Where is the line drawn? Primary source of income? Your main job? How many gigs you've done? How often someone has paid for an image of yours? The level of ambiguity to this determination is huge to an extent to which I don't believe you have given any thought.

I don't quite understand how anyone is taking advantage or bending the rules. I'm quite certain that if Canon/CPS was overly concerned about making their memberships exclusive only to high level pros, they would do so. I tend to believe based on the way things are set up that they are really only concerned about whether you have spent enough money on their stuff.

I have a career which pays me very well which allows me to have the luxury of owning a lot of gear without having to do photography as a job. I do paid gigs for fun here and there and have plenty of gear which doesn't all necessarily get used on those jobs. Does that make me not a professional? Am I not qualified to get my equipment worked on?

Canon sells products and provides a way for you to get them serviced which also costs money. Who is anyone to tell another photog they shouldn't be allowed to have membership if they are willing to pay the money for both?

I'm pretty sure there is a higher likelihood of running into some bad karma when you are being wrongfully judgmental of others and/or being full of yourself.

I fully agree. And not to start another argument over what "professional" means, but especially in a difficult field like this I look at this question more as driven by results more than anything else. Very few people make a good living as a full time pro photographer I would argue. And even then a lot of the income may not come directly from taking photos these days but from workshops, web services, etc.

It doesn't matter. I personally take on professional gigs every now and then - and by that I mean I get hired or asked because of my results. More often then not I do this for charity. I have a "regular" job and at the moment would likely not be able to make that same kind of money with photography that I make in my day job. That's my choice.

And with that it was also my choice to buy a lot of Canon equipment. This is Canon's business model after all. They make a professional line of camera gear and then a lot of "normal" guys (and some gals) go and buy Canon stuff as well. In return they offer a few discounts on repairs and cleanings to folks who have bought enough. How I make my money to spend on their gear is non of their business. And when talking to them I got the impression that they don't care. They actually want people to sign up. In my case even after  I broke a lens. They want members. It's a marketing tool. They want happy customers who will by more stuff later. It's not some fancy privilege. It's a discount on repairs. And a loaner program to tickle you for the next thing on your list.
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: takesome1 on December 19, 2013, 12:08:29 PM
CPS is aimed for Professionals, and i'm sure if they were to find out that you were not a professional, you could lose your status.  Being both a professional and a CPS member, i find threads like these kind of sad, but, for those who take advantage and bend the rules for your own gain, karma always comes back around...

What is sad are posts like these as they appear to be judgmental and pompous. What, may I ask are the criteria for being a "professional?" Where is the line drawn? Primary source of income? Your main job? How many gigs you've done? How often someone has paid for an image of yours? The level of ambiguity to this determination is huge to an extent to which I don't believe you have given any thought.

I don't quite understand how anyone is taking advantage or bending the rules. I'm quite certain that if Canon/CPS was overly concerned about making their memberships exclusive only to high level pros, they would do so. I tend to believe based on the way things are set up that they are really only concerned about whether you have spent enough money on their stuff.

I have a career which pays me very well which allows me to have the luxury of owning a lot of gear without having to do photography as a job. I do paid gigs for fun here and there and have plenty of gear which doesn't all necessarily get used on those jobs. Does that make me not a professional? Am I not qualified to get my equipment worked on?

Canon sells products and provides a way for you to get them serviced which also costs money. Who is anyone to tell another photog they shouldn't be allowed to have membership if they are willing to pay the money for both?

I'm pretty sure there is a higher likelihood of running into some bad karma when you are being wrongfully judgmental of others and/or being full of yourself.

I fully agree. And not to start another argument over what "professional" means, but especially in a difficult field like this I look at this question more as driven by results more than anything else. Very few people make a good living as a full time pro photographer I would argue. And even then a lot of the income may not come directly from taking photos these days but from workshops, web services, etc.

It doesn't matter. I personally take on professional gigs every now and then - and by that I mean I get hired or asked because of my results. More often then not I do this for charity. I have a "regular" job and at the moment would likely not be able to make that same kind of money with photography that I make in my day job. That's my choice.

And with that it was also my choice to buy a lot of Canon equipment. This is Canon's business model after all. They make a professional line of camera gear and then a lot of "normal" guys (and some gals) go and buy Canon stuff as well. In return they offer a few discounts on repairs and cleanings to folks who have bought enough. How I make my money to spend on their gear is non of their business. And when talking to them I got the impression that they don't care. They actually want people to sign up. In my case even after  I broke a lens. They want members. It's a marketing tool. They want happy customers who will by more stuff later. It's not some fancy privilege. It's a discount on repairs. And a loaner program to tickle you for the next thing on your list.

This is from CPS's FAQ;

"Who is Eligible for CPS Membership?
Membership is available only to those individuals (self-employed or employed by a professional imaging business), who plays a direct role in the creation of moving or still images for third parties on a full-time basis and are legal residents of the 50 United States, the District of Columbia (and Puerto Rico as of January 31, 2014)."

No where does it say I can join just because I have bought a bunch of expensive gear and get a loaner 600mm while mine is in for service so I can continue to take tweety bird pictures at the feeder.

It also says "full-time basis". Shooting the occasional wedding on the weekend wouldn't qualify you either. It says "full-time basis".

You can be a "Pro" if you received money for your services, that wouldn't qualify you either if it is not on a "full-time basis".
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: JohnDizzo15 on December 19, 2013, 12:50:07 PM
No where does it say I can join just because I have bought a bunch of expensive gear and get a loaner 600mm while mine is in for service so I can continue to take tweety bird pictures at the feeder.

It also says "full-time basis". Shooting the occasional wedding on the weekend wouldn't qualify you either. It says "full-time basis".

You can be a "Pro" if you received money for your services, that wouldn't qualify you either if it is not on a "full-time basis".

Regarding your bird shooting comment, there are plenty of us here that shoot professionally, just not on what we would consider a "full-time" basis in the traditional sense of the term. Again, failure to recognize the ambiguity of the description here exhibits a lack of perspective. Also, the comment you've made regarding "tweety bird pictures" only further perpetuates the attitude with which I (as well as others) have issue with.

Again, as a rule of thumb, I shun and have utter disdain for anyone who has deemed themselves overly important or better than others when they have done so through false judgments and assertions.

I do not consider myself a "full-time pro" by any stretch. However, what I have done in the last month and a half is shoot four major events for large businesses/organizations as well as some less significant portrait sessions. This accounted for a roughly estimated 5% of my time allocated to "working" with the other 95% at my day job during that time span. Based on your attitude and stated opinion, a shooter like myself would not qualify. To that, I ask, how much more work have you done, how much more money have you made, were your images any better, more abundant, or more important than mine?

I'm starting to get the feeling that the core of the pain most "elite" pros feel about us lowly amateurs getting in on CPS is more derivative of being a hater than it based on how they (or their photo job) have been adversely affected by non full-timers being members.

Yes, I am fortunate enough to own a lot of gear.
No, I do not take the financial aspect very seriously.
Yes, I have a need for CPS.
No, I do not take my photography any less seriously than a "full-time pro."
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: JohnDizzo15 on December 19, 2013, 12:57:42 PM
And with that it was also my choice to buy a lot of Canon equipment. This is Canon's business model after all. They make a professional line of camera gear and then a lot of "normal" guys (and some gals) go and buy Canon stuff as well. In return they offer a few discounts on repairs and cleanings to folks who have bought enough. How I make my money to spend on their gear is non of their business. And when talking to them I got the impression that they don't care. They actually want people to sign up. In my case even after  I broke a lens. They want members. It's a marketing tool. They want happy customers who will by more stuff later. It's not some fancy privilege. It's a discount on repairs. And a loaner program to tickle you for the next thing on your list.

Exactly. CPS could easily (and pretty instantly) change their admittance guidelines if they wanted to. And having spoken with them also, it does not seem that they are trying to be very exclusive. What does seem to be the case is that they have assessed their resources at CPS and come to the conclusion that it is a good business decision for them to have more customers in their program.

Now if you'll all excuse me, there is a really pretty bird in the tree outside of my office (at my day job) that I have to go take pictures of.  ;D
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: sagittariansrock on December 19, 2013, 02:13:24 PM
On one hand, I agree that it is unfair to the pros that the facilities originally intended for them is shared by non-pros who have qualifying gear. Plus, if something has a clear definition of a 'pro' it should be adhered to.
On the other hand, who is to say that the 'needs' of the pro is more than the 'want' of a hobbyist. Our requirements are relative; for example: a hobbyist on a trip to Hawaii might need his only lens badly to capture memories of his honeymoon while a pro might not need his backup lens that soon. Plus, as Neuro mentioned- the definition mentioned above is not a very good one.
I suppose this debate will go on, until the point Canon decides to make the requirements more stringent or open a new expedited service for non-professionals who can pay for it.
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: awinphoto on December 19, 2013, 02:22:14 PM
CPS is aimed for Professionals, and i'm sure if they were to find out that you were not a professional, you could lose your status.  Being both a professional and a CPS member, i find threads like these kind of sad, but, for those who take advantage and bend the rules for your own gain, karma always comes back around...

What is sad are posts like these as they appear to be judgmental and pompous. What, may I ask are the criteria for being a "professional?" Where is the line drawn? Primary source of income? Your main job? How many gigs you've done? How often someone has paid for an image of yours? The level of ambiguity to this determination is huge to an extent to which I don't believe you have given any thought.

I don't quite understand how anyone is taking advantage or bending the rules. I'm quite certain that if Canon/CPS was overly concerned about making their memberships exclusive only to high level pros, they would do so. I tend to believe based on the way things are set up that they are really only concerned about whether you have spent enough money on their stuff.

I have a career which pays me very well which allows me to have the luxury of owning a lot of gear without having to do photography as a job. I do paid gigs for fun here and there and have plenty of gear which doesn't all necessarily get used on those jobs. Does that make me not a professional? Am I not qualified to get my equipment worked on?

Canon sells products and provides a way for you to get them serviced which also costs money. Who is anyone to tell another photog they shouldn't be allowed to have membership if they are willing to pay the money for both?

I'm pretty sure there is a higher likelihood of running into some bad karma when you are being wrongfully judgmental of others and/or being full of yourself.
John, I don't mean to be pompous or judgemental, but I quite disagree.
I don't have a "day job" to fall back on, so I think it's only fair that Canon looks after those who depend on their equipment for a livelihood.
Being a self-employed editorial photographer is fraught with enough challenges without the worry that your camera manufacturer doesn't have your back. In this day where publications expect content for free, let's just say there are many other careers that, in comparison, pay very well. Too many times I've covered events where the hobbyists have equipment that's better and newer than mine. Most likely theirs has seen far less wear, as they don't have to come up with usable images day after day. If they miss a shot because their gear fails, yes, it's a real disappointment.  If I miss mine, I've probably lost a payday, perhaps a hard-won client, as well as being out of work until it's fixed.

Definitely don't think you are either one of those things. Awin on the other hand....

Anyhow, while I respect your opinion, I still fail to understand how not allowing certain classes of photographers to have membership would help your cause. As it stands, there is a tiered setup for membership which includes one type that has expedited service as well as other perks. I know several photographers that regularly utilize that membership and have never had a problem having all their needs met in a timely fashion. So unless having such an open enrollment process adversely affects your ability to have your needs met somehow, I don't see what the issue is.

The reason Awin's comments bothered me was because they were full of assumption and judgment all of which were unfounded.

When it comes down to it, there are countless variations in need and types of photographers who do all different levels of work out there. As such, the grey area for what would be defined as "professional" is huge. Do we base it on generated income, number of jobs, frequency, type of work, etc?

I see i ruffled someones feathers...  Here's the deal...  year after year, and this isn't the only thread talking about this, more and more people sign up or try to sign up for Canon CPS and they have, especially recently, changed the rules and benefits of signing up decreasing what they used to give to us just to accommodate demand.  I have seen multiple accounts and threads on CR and other forums where people blatantly say they are not pro's and yet they are members of Canon CPS.  Instead of being stringent and exclusive, it's more of a pay per play system, and i feel it isn't right.  You have seen in almost every sector in life where when people take advantage of a service or good, that good starts becoming more scarce, funds start depleting for it, and or quality of goods start to deteriorate.  Without bringing politics into it, a simple look at the governments welfare and unemployment insurance systems are a great example as funding has been steadily cut to recipients and it's harder and harder to access.  The same is starting to happen to this great system and it isn't right. 

As a professional, i dont always have the funding to get the best gear as it is my livelyhood and i have no other funding, day jobs, etc to pay for my gear... if my gear goes down and CPS cant help me right away because some other non-pro has the gear i would need loaned to them, then i'm losing money or not being able to accept jobs and that hurt my bottom line and darn right i'm going to be peeved.  It is what it is.  CPS is Canon Professional Services, not Canon Insurance Services or Canon I want to be a photographer but have lots of money services... 
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: Eldar on December 19, 2013, 02:36:26 PM
CPS is aimed for Professionals, and i'm sure if they were to find out that you were not a professional, you could lose your status.  Being both a professional and a CPS member, i find threads like these kind of sad, but, for those who take advantage and bend the rules for your own gain, karma always comes back around...
CPS is a service to those who spend enough money on Canon´s pro gear. Wether you´re a pro, an enthusiast or a wealthy gadget collector does not matter. To exclude non-pros would be very poor judgement.

There are numerous enthusiasts on this forum with more lenses and bodies than most of the pros, who are members of CPS. I am on platinum. I am sure Canon view them as some of their most important customers, because they buy a lot, but they don´t use the equipment as hard as the pros and they require less services. This way the enthusiasts help financing a critical service to the pros. The cost for a CPS membership is covered in the price for the equipment, regardless of wether you are pro or amateur.

Look at the equipment lists of Elm58, Neuroanatomist or myself for that matter, we are all amateurs, but fairly enthusiastic about our hobby. Would it make sense for Canon to exclude us from CPS and risk the customer relationship? Don´t think so.
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: unfocused on December 19, 2013, 02:47:21 PM
...What does seem to be the case is that they have assessed their resources at CPS and come to the conclusion that it is a good business decision for them to have more customers in their program.

That's really the key point. Regardless of how anyone else feels about it, it is Canon's program and if they choose not to stringently enforce their own rules, that's their decision.

They call it "professional services" but it walks like, quacks like and swims like an affinity program, so it's hard to blame people for treating it like an affinity program.

There are probably a hundred or more things Canon could do to tighten up the system, but they don't. My observation has been that Canon seldom does anything without having a solid business reason behind it. I assume they have assessed their CPS program and come to the conclusion that this is business model that works for them.

Actually, as I'm thinking more about this, it occurs to me how brilliant their marketing strategy is.

They've adopted a restrictive but unenforced set of qualifications so that people who spend a fortune on their equipment can pay them $100 a year to become members of an exclusive "professional" club. People pay them and think they are getting away with something by "crashing" this exclusive club, when in reality everyone else in the club has also crashed the party.

Brilliant.

Now, I do feel a little sorry for the people like awinphoto, but on the other hand, this is sort of like the "I don't want video on my camera" debate.

Does Canon's defacto policy truly deplete the available resources for professionals, or does expanding the membership allow them to keep the program open for professionals. I suspect it is the latter.

In the old days, Canon and Nikon probably ran their professional services programs as loss leaders. They probably didn't make money on the service, but used other resources to subsidize it so they could keep their professional base content. But, that was in the days when there was a large professional base and profit margins were more generous.

In today's business world, every division and every subdivision has to justify it's existence and demonstrate some contribution to the bottom line. That's just how businesses are run today. I strongly suspect that management looked at CPS and determined that it could not be sustained based on the traditional model, so they had to find a way to make it self-sustaining and this is it.

So really, while I know it is frustrating for someone who was invited to the wedding, to go and find a bunch of riffraff who got in by slipping some cash under the table, try to remember that if it weren't for that riffraff you would be eating Chicken instead of Filet Mignon.
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: awinphoto on December 19, 2013, 02:48:49 PM
CPS is aimed for Professionals, and i'm sure if they were to find out that you were not a professional, you could lose your status.  Being both a professional and a CPS member, i find threads like these kind of sad, but, for those who take advantage and bend the rules for your own gain, karma always comes back around...
CPS is a service to those who spend enough money on Canon´s pro gear. Wether you´re a pro, an enthusiast or a wealthy gadget collector does not matter. To exclude non-pros would be very poor judgement.

Wrong.  according to Canon CPS, Membership is available only to those individuals (self-employed or employed by a professional imaging business), who plays a direct role in the creation of moving or still images for third parties on a full-time basis and are legal residents of the 50 United States, the District of Columbia (and Puerto Rico as of January 31, 2014).

That is directly from their own FAQ.  You are correct, i've gone to many events, Weddings, Parties, etc where guests, like neuro, has better gear than myself...  The difference is i'm getting paid and entrusted by the hosts of the event to provide the images for the event, wedding, whatever the case may be.  My gear is critical to my families income so I cannot have them go down or i'm out of business.  CPS is aimed to help us working professionals so we can experiment with new gear, buy new gear, and help us if our gear goes down to get it back up and running the best way possible. 
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: awinphoto on December 19, 2013, 03:01:09 PM
...What does seem to be the case is that they have assessed their resources at CPS and come to the conclusion that it is a good business decision for them to have more customers in their program.

Does Canon's defacto policy truly deplete the available resources for professionals, or does expanding the membership allow them to keep the program open for professionals. I suspect it is the latter.

In the old days, Canon and Nikon probably ran their professional services programs as loss leaders. They probably didn't make money on the service, but used other resources to subsidize it so they could keep their professional base content. But, that was in the days when there was a large professional base and profit margins were more generous.

In today's business world, every division and every subdivision has to justify it's existence and demonstrate some contribution to the bottom line. That's just how businesses are run today. I strongly suspect that management looked at CPS and determined that it could not be sustained based on the traditional model, so they had to find a way to make it self-sustaining and this is it.

So really, while I know it is frustrating for someone who was invited to the wedding, to go and find a bunch of riffraff who got in by slipping some cash under the table, try to remember that if it weren't for that riffraff you would be eating Chicken instead of Filet Mignon.

Fair enough statement, but the latest changes to CPS. for instance their loaner policies, a few months ago were cited because of increasing enrollment and lack of equipment to meet the demand, hence shorter loan periods.  Of course after much push back they later revised it again so it wasn't as painful of a cut, but it is what it is...  and threads and attitudes such as what is on this very thread goes to show how changes like this is brought about in the first place.  Anywho, for what it's worth, i sent a link of this thread to CPS...  dont know what or if things can change now that they have let things get out of control, but one can hope.
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: Eldar on December 19, 2013, 03:09:50 PM
CPS is aimed for Professionals, and i'm sure if they were to find out that you were not a professional, you could lose your status.  Being both a professional and a CPS member, i find threads like these kind of sad, but, for those who take advantage and bend the rules for your own gain, karma always comes back around...
CPS is a service to those who spend enough money on Canon´s pro gear. Wether you´re a pro, an enthusiast or a wealthy gadget collector does not matter. To exclude non-pros would be very poor judgement.

Wrong.  according to Canon CPS, Membership is available only to those individuals (self-employed or employed by a professional imaging business), who plays a direct role in the creation of moving or still images for third parties on a full-time basis and are legal residents of the 50 United States, the District of Columbia (and Puerto Rico as of January 31, 2014).

That is directly from their own FAQ.  You are correct, i've gone to many events, Weddings, Parties, etc where guests, like neuro, has better gear than myself...  The difference is i'm getting paid and entrusted by the hosts of the event to provide the images for the event, wedding, whatever the case may be.  My gear is critical to my families income so I cannot have them go down or i'm out of business.  CPS is aimed to help us working professionals so we can experiment with new gear, buy new gear, and help us if our gear goes down to get it back up and running the best way possible.
Then they apply different rules in different countries. In Europe they also use the word professional, but the membership application and acceptance is a pure consequence of the equipment list you have. To get to the various levels, you need a certain number of qualified bodies and lenses.

And again, to provide a service seldom used to the wealthy amateurs helps fund the critical service to the pros. I think you have the situation turned upside down. We are not the enemy here. We help!
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: JohnDizzo15 on December 19, 2013, 03:09:56 PM
CPS is aimed for Professionals, and i'm sure if they were to find out that you were not a professional, you could lose your status.  Being both a professional and a CPS member, i find threads like these kind of sad, but, for those who take advantage and bend the rules for your own gain, karma always comes back around...
CPS is a service to those who spend enough money on Canon´s pro gear. Wether you´re a pro, an enthusiast or a wealthy gadget collector does not matter. To exclude non-pros would be very poor judgement.

Wrong.  according to Canon CPS, Membership is available only to those individuals (self-employed or employed by a professional imaging business), who plays a direct role in the creation of moving or still images for third parties on a full-time basis and are legal residents of the 50 United States, the District of Columbia (and Puerto Rico as of January 31, 2014).

That is directly from their own FAQ.  You are correct, i've gone to many events, Weddings, Parties, etc where guests, like neuro, has better gear than myself...  The difference is i'm getting paid and entrusted by the hosts of the event to provide the images for the event, wedding, whatever the case may be.  My gear is critical to my families income so I cannot have them go down or i'm out of business.  CPS is aimed to help us working professionals so we can experiment with new gear, buy new gear, and help us if our gear goes down to get it back up and running the best way possible.

Again, let us all be reminded that Canon is a business. One with a lot of people that have monetary interest in. The goal of any business is to make money. If you don't like the way the program is being run, I would think the correct direction to aim your frustration would be the company themselves for setting it up this way.

You defining or saying that CPS is for.... is mere conjecture on your part as you have no idea what their business model is or what their true intentions for CPS are. You appear to simply be upset at the fact that they are not running it the way YOU see fit and have somehow decided that it is the amateur consumer's fault.

FWIW
I keep hearing the mention of how if photography is someone's main source of income and their livelihood depends on it, their needs are inherently more important. Well hell, I once had the dream of being a photographer for a living as well. Instead, I sucked it up and took on a career doing something I could care less about so that I could fund what I loved to do instead. And now, I have the money for the gear and a membership only to have people like you try to tell me that I'm somehow bending the rules or taking advantage for my own selfish gain at your expense.

I'll tell you what. If photography were my chosen profession and things were the way they are, I wouldn't so much cry about it as I would be working to find a way to make more money so that I wouldn't have to worry so much when my gear does go out. But that's just me.
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: JohnDizzo15 on December 19, 2013, 03:15:10 PM

Anywho, for what it's worth, i sent a link of this thread to CPS...  dont know what or if things can change now that they have let things get out of control, but one can hope.

Seriously? LOL.
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: awinphoto on December 19, 2013, 03:17:33 PM
CPS is aimed for Professionals, and i'm sure if they were to find out that you were not a professional, you could lose your status.  Being both a professional and a CPS member, i find threads like these kind of sad, but, for those who take advantage and bend the rules for your own gain, karma always comes back around...
CPS is a service to those who spend enough money on Canon´s pro gear. Wether you´re a pro, an enthusiast or a wealthy gadget collector does not matter. To exclude non-pros would be very poor judgement.

Wrong.  according to Canon CPS, Membership is available only to those individuals (self-employed or employed by a professional imaging business), who plays a direct role in the creation of moving or still images for third parties on a full-time basis and are legal residents of the 50 United States, the District of Columbia (and Puerto Rico as of January 31, 2014).

That is directly from their own FAQ.  You are correct, i've gone to many events, Weddings, Parties, etc where guests, like neuro, has better gear than myself...  The difference is i'm getting paid and entrusted by the hosts of the event to provide the images for the event, wedding, whatever the case may be.  My gear is critical to my families income so I cannot have them go down or i'm out of business.  CPS is aimed to help us working professionals so we can experiment with new gear, buy new gear, and help us if our gear goes down to get it back up and running the best way possible.

Again, let us all be reminded that Canon is a business. One with a lot of people that have monetary interest in. The goal of any business is to make money. If you don't like the way the program is being run, I would think the correct direction to aim your frustration would be the company themselves for setting it up this way.

You defining or saying that CPS is for.... is mere conjecture on your part as you have no idea what their business model is or what their true intentions for CPS are. You appear to simply be upset at the fact that they are not running it the way YOU see fit and have somehow decided that it is the amateur consumer's fault.

FWIW
I keep hearing the mention of how if photography is someone's main source of income and their livelihood depends on it, their needs are inherently more important. Well hell, I once had the dream of being a photographer for a living as well. Instead, I sucked it up and took on a career doing something I could care less about so that I could fund what I loved to do instead. And now, I have the money for the gear and a membership only to have people like you try to tell me that I'm somehow bending the rules or taking advantage for my own selfish gain at your expense.

I'll tell you what. If photography were my chosen profession and things were the way they are, I wouldn't so much cry about it as I would be working to find a way to make more money so that I wouldn't have to worry so much when my gear does go out. But that's just me.

Yes John, Seriously... They need to know what their general customer base thinks of their products and services... They replied saying they have forwarded it to the management... so, if they agree with your motto, they will leave it be, if they dont, then they will wake up and make some changes to their policies.  It's not whether or not they are doing it MY way or not, it's about doing it according to their own rules and regs. 
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: Eldar on December 19, 2013, 03:28:43 PM

Anywho, for what it's worth, i sent a link of this thread to CPS...  dont know what or if things can change now that they have let things get out of control, but one can hope.

Seriously? LOL.
+1 :)
So what you´re actually saying is that You want Canon to give You and your peers, with less gear, meaning you have spent less money with Canon, exclusive right to their services (and more, faster and better, please), of which you are the heavy and costly users, excluding others who are spending more money with Canon, but use less of their services :o

i am not surprised if you find it difficult to make money ...
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: awinphoto on December 19, 2013, 03:30:01 PM

Anywho, for what it's worth, i sent a link of this thread to CPS...  dont know what or if things can change now that they have let things get out of control, but one can hope.

Seriously? LOL.

Lastly John, i could have done your same thing...  I could have done what my parents wanted me to do and join the Navy.  I could have gone to some Community college and gotten some other training... But as a kid, every day my dad would come home pissing and moaning about his work, how much he hated it, how much he was doing it to support the family, you know, being a martyr... I swore I would NEVER allow myself to do that.  I would do what I wanted to do how I wanted to do it and live my life.  I didn't settle and now i'm working in the best job (for me) that I could have.  I didn't "SUCK IT UP", i did everything i can be a professional in every sense of the word.  How many people can truely say they are doing what they love?  Not many. 

BUT, in the end, a photographers sucess and endorsements go a long way in marketing, two big examples are Sandy Puc (Canon) and Doug Gordon (Nikon), and then you have some betweeners like Tamera Lackey and Bambi Contrell who at some point in their career shot with both systems.  When Doug wins an award, Nikon is always praised, when Sandy when her awards, Canon is brought up...  Professional Services are meant to aid and support their professional base.  They aren't stupid...  Endorsements are key, especially if they dont have to pay them, they just give them the best support possible.  While I'm not in the same league as many of these world class photographers, I do aspire to get there some day and thats why they cater (nikon and canon alike) to their professional base.  It's not that pro's are any more important than any other consumer, but they know that when a pro, me or anyone else, is asked by a typical consumer, "hey, what gear do you use"... that professional endorsement goes a long way in whether that consumer goes to costco and buys a rebel or a nikon.   
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: awinphoto on December 19, 2013, 03:32:15 PM

Anywho, for what it's worth, i sent a link of this thread to CPS...  dont know what or if things can change now that they have let things get out of control, but one can hope.

Seriously? LOL.
+1 :)
So what you´re actually saying is that You want Canon to give You and your peers, with less gear, meaning you have spent less money with Canon, exclusive right to their services (and more, faster and better, please), of which you are the heavy and costly users, excluding others who are spending more money with Canon, but use less of their services :o

i am not surprised if you find it difficult to make money ...

not at all my friend, not at all... Just holding their feet to the fire... Change your rules to either expand services to all people or enforce the rules already on the books... Just dont pretend to be a professional service if you are not.
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: JohnDizzo15 on December 19, 2013, 03:33:54 PM
CPS is aimed for Professionals, and i'm sure if they were to find out that you were not a professional, you could lose your status.  Being both a professional and a CPS member, i find threads like these kind of sad, but, for those who take advantage and bend the rules for your own gain, karma always comes back around...
CPS is a service to those who spend enough money on Canon´s pro gear. Wether you´re a pro, an enthusiast or a wealthy gadget collector does not matter. To exclude non-pros would be very poor judgement.

Wrong.  according to Canon CPS, Membership is available only to those individuals (self-employed or employed by a professional imaging business), who plays a direct role in the creation of moving or still images for third parties on a full-time basis and are legal residents of the 50 United States, the District of Columbia (and Puerto Rico as of January 31, 2014).

That is directly from their own FAQ.  You are correct, i've gone to many events, Weddings, Parties, etc where guests, like neuro, has better gear than myself...  The difference is i'm getting paid and entrusted by the hosts of the event to provide the images for the event, wedding, whatever the case may be.  My gear is critical to my families income so I cannot have them go down or i'm out of business.  CPS is aimed to help us working professionals so we can experiment with new gear, buy new gear, and help us if our gear goes down to get it back up and running the best way possible.

Again, let us all be reminded that Canon is a business. One with a lot of people that have monetary interest in. The goal of any business is to make money. If you don't like the way the program is being run, I would think the correct direction to aim your frustration would be the company themselves for setting it up this way.

You defining or saying that CPS is for.... is mere conjecture on your part as you have no idea what their business model is or what their true intentions for CPS are. You appear to simply be upset at the fact that they are not running it the way YOU see fit and have somehow decided that it is the amateur consumer's fault.

FWIW
I keep hearing the mention of how if photography is someone's main source of income and their livelihood depends on it, their needs are inherently more important. Well hell, I once had the dream of being a photographer for a living as well. Instead, I sucked it up and took on a career doing something I could care less about so that I could fund what I loved to do instead. And now, I have the money for the gear and a membership only to have people like you try to tell me that I'm somehow bending the rules or taking advantage for my own selfish gain at your expense.

I'll tell you what. If photography were my chosen profession and things were the way they are, I wouldn't so much cry about it as I would be working to find a way to make more money so that I wouldn't have to worry so much when my gear does go out. But that's just me.

Yes John, Seriously... They need to know what their general customer base thinks of their products and services... They replied saying they have forwarded it to the management... so, if they agree with your motto, they will leave it be, if they dont, then they will wake up and make some changes to their policies.  It's not whether or not they are doing it MY way or not, it's about doing it according to their own rules and regs.

My position still stands and I'm pretty sure that the core of their concern will be their general customer base and their willingness to pump more money into their company. I currently have over 25k in Canon equipment in my house and am prepping myself to buy whatever they have brewing in the works for their next pro level body. They could theoretically begin to exclude people like me, but that only serves to put a black eye on their business for consumers like myself who have spent significant amounts of their non-qualified incomes on Canon products.

Perhaps they will in fact boot the large number of high dollar spending amateurs in hopes of pleasing the pros that spend less and I will be back here reading the "I told you so" comments.  ;D
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: Eldar on December 19, 2013, 03:37:12 PM
A parallell:
I am a business man. I run a company. I travel a lot. I pay high prices for business class tickets when I travel inter continental. I like to get access to lounges, I like to be able to upgrade and I like priority check in, priority boarding etc. because it makes my professional life a lot easier.

Using your arguments, I should require from the airlines to separate the holiday travelers, who are rich enough to buy the same business class tickets from us, the professionals. Because they only do this once in a while and I do it all the time. It is my work, but they only do it for fun. They should have a screening of frequent flyer membership status, to ensure that only the professional travelers get bonus points and the right to special services etc. etc.

You see how stupid it is?
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: awinphoto on December 19, 2013, 03:38:52 PM
CPS is aimed for Professionals, and i'm sure if they were to find out that you were not a professional, you could lose your status.  Being both a professional and a CPS member, i find threads like these kind of sad, but, for those who take advantage and bend the rules for your own gain, karma always comes back around...
CPS is a service to those who spend enough money on Canon´s pro gear. Wether you´re a pro, an enthusiast or a wealthy gadget collector does not matter. To exclude non-pros would be very poor judgement.

Wrong.  according to Canon CPS, Membership is available only to those individuals (self-employed or employed by a professional imaging business), who plays a direct role in the creation of moving or still images for third parties on a full-time basis and are legal residents of the 50 United States, the District of Columbia (and Puerto Rico as of January 31, 2014).

That is directly from their own FAQ.  You are correct, i've gone to many events, Weddings, Parties, etc where guests, like neuro, has better gear than myself...  The difference is i'm getting paid and entrusted by the hosts of the event to provide the images for the event, wedding, whatever the case may be.  My gear is critical to my families income so I cannot have them go down or i'm out of business.  CPS is aimed to help us working professionals so we can experiment with new gear, buy new gear, and help us if our gear goes down to get it back up and running the best way possible.

Again, let us all be reminded that Canon is a business. One with a lot of people that have monetary interest in. The goal of any business is to make money. If you don't like the way the program is being run, I would think the correct direction to aim your frustration would be the company themselves for setting it up this way.

You defining or saying that CPS is for.... is mere conjecture on your part as you have no idea what their business model is or what their true intentions for CPS are. You appear to simply be upset at the fact that they are not running it the way YOU see fit and have somehow decided that it is the amateur consumer's fault.

FWIW
I keep hearing the mention of how if photography is someone's main source of income and their livelihood depends on it, their needs are inherently more important. Well hell, I once had the dream of being a photographer for a living as well. Instead, I sucked it up and took on a career doing something I could care less about so that I could fund what I loved to do instead. And now, I have the money for the gear and a membership only to have people like you try to tell me that I'm somehow bending the rules or taking advantage for my own selfish gain at your expense.

I'll tell you what. If photography were my chosen profession and things were the way they are, I wouldn't so much cry about it as I would be working to find a way to make more money so that I wouldn't have to worry so much when my gear does go out. But that's just me.

Yes John, Seriously... They need to know what their general customer base thinks of their products and services... They replied saying they have forwarded it to the management... so, if they agree with your motto, they will leave it be, if they dont, then they will wake up and make some changes to their policies.  It's not whether or not they are doing it MY way or not, it's about doing it according to their own rules and regs.

My position still stands and I'm pretty sure that the core of their concern will be their general customer base and their willingness to pump more money into their company. I currently have over 25k in Canon equipment in my house and am prepping myself to buy whatever they have brewing in the works for their next pro level body. They could theoretically begin to exclude people like me, but that only serves to put a black eye on their business for consumers like myself who have spent significant amounts of their non-qualified incomes on Canon products.

Perhaps they will in fact boot the large number of high dollar spending amateurs in hopes of pleasing the pros that spend less and I will be back here reading the "I told you so" comments.  ;D

So, you want to be a part of a program you, according to their rules, are not entitled to even be in, in the first place, and say it would be a black eye for them to enforce their own freaking rules?  Are you high or something?  My point still stands, either enforce your rules or change your rules to encompass your actual positioning...  Dont have a set of rules and break them. 
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: JohnDizzo15 on December 19, 2013, 03:40:59 PM

Anywho, for what it's worth, i sent a link of this thread to CPS...  dont know what or if things can change now that they have let things get out of control, but one can hope.

Seriously? LOL.
+1 :)
So what you´re actually saying is that You want Canon to give You and your peers, with less gear, meaning you have spent less money with Canon, exclusive right to their services (and more, faster and better, please), of which you are the heavy and costly users, excluding others who are spending more money with Canon, but use less of their services :o

i am not surprised if you find it difficult to make money ...

not at all my friend, not at all... Just holding their feet to the fire... Change your rules to either expand services to all people or enforce the rules already on the books... Just dont pretend to be a professional service if you are not.

I cannot speak for all. But I can say that I do offer a professional service (one of which all my clients have loved over other so-called pros before me). I don't have the time to have anywhere near the same frequency of professional gigs as a full-time pro, but it doesn't mean that I do not do my fair share. So as far as I go, there is no pretending here. The only thing causing an issue is when an individual has decided that the amount or type of work they do makes them more qualified as a "professional."

In a nutshell. Just because I have chosen to do something else as a primary source of income doesn't make the paid work that I do not "professional."
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: awinphoto on December 19, 2013, 03:41:53 PM
A parallell:
I am a business man. I run a company. I travel a lot. I pay high prices for business class tickets when I travel inter continental. I like to get access to lounges, I like to be able to upgrade and I like priority check in, priority boarding etc. because it makes my professional life a lot easier.

Using your arguments, I should require from the airlines to separate the holiday travelers, who are rich enough to buy the same business class tickets from us, the professionals. Because they only do this once in a while and I do it all the time. It is my work, but they only do it for fun. They should have a screening of frequent flyer membership status, to ensure that only the professional travelers get bonus points and the right to special services etc. etc.

You see how stupid it is?

No.... i'm saying enforce your own rules and policies or change them to assimilate with what is the current protocol.  Dont say this is for Professionals when uncle bob with a lot of money can get in also.  I didn't make the rules, but if rules are going to be in place, enforce them. 
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: jonathan7007 on December 19, 2013, 03:42:23 PM
This thread veered off into emotional territory, but there were a couple of responses early about cost vs. return.

I believe CPS is better analyzed as insurance. You don't plan to have all the money back in services every year.

As noted they looked at the cost and increased our dollar contribution while lowering the offer. I asked a rep andhe seemed to confirm. Not an official comment. i was Gold and let it lapse... still thinking about Platinum, for which I qualify. Loaners now require a longer lead time.
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: awinphoto on December 19, 2013, 03:48:00 PM

Anywho, for what it's worth, i sent a link of this thread to CPS...  dont know what or if things can change now that they have let things get out of control, but one can hope.

Seriously? LOL.
+1 :)
So what you´re actually saying is that You want Canon to give You and your peers, with less gear, meaning you have spent less money with Canon, exclusive right to their services (and more, faster and better, please), of which you are the heavy and costly users, excluding others who are spending more money with Canon, but use less of their services :o

i am not surprised if you find it difficult to make money ...

not at all my friend, not at all... Just holding their feet to the fire... Change your rules to either expand services to all people or enforce the rules already on the books... Just dont pretend to be a professional service if you are not.

I cannot speak for all. But I can say that I do offer a professional service (one of which all my clients have loved over other so-called pros before me). I don't have the time to have anywhere near the same frequency of professional gigs as a full-time pro, but it doesn't mean that I do not do my fair share. So as far as I go, there is no pretending here. The only thing causing an issue is when an individual has decided that the amount or type of work they do makes them more qualified as a "professional."

In a nutshell. Just because I have chosen to do something else as a primary source of income doesn't make the paid work that I do not "professional."

I'm not saying you are not "professional", although depending on many factors, that may or may not be an accurate description, but that's neither here or there...  Once again, their rules state a full time professional image maker, or an image maker that produces work for a third party full time... whatever, same jist...  as I said, i didn't make the rules... they never asked me for my input on the rules...  BUT, if your camera goes down, you can afford to have canon repair and have it back to you when they are done.... I dont have that luxury.  This is my sole income... this is all i know to do... This is what i've worked my whole life for.  If you cannot understand that, then you have more problems that just this.  Enforce the rules or change them... Not saying is is more right than the other, just dont claim to be a professional service then (canon).  (and be prepared to lose more pro's over to nikon)... 
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: JohnDizzo15 on December 19, 2013, 03:50:44 PM
CPS is aimed for Professionals, and i'm sure if they were to find out that you were not a professional, you could lose your status.  Being both a professional and a CPS member, i find threads like these kind of sad, but, for those who take advantage and bend the rules for your own gain, karma always comes back around...
CPS is a service to those who spend enough money on Canon´s pro gear. Wether you´re a pro, an enthusiast or a wealthy gadget collector does not matter. To exclude non-pros would be very poor judgement.

Wrong.  according to Canon CPS, Membership is available only to those individuals (self-employed or employed by a professional imaging business), who plays a direct role in the creation of moving or still images for third parties on a full-time basis and are legal residents of the 50 United States, the District of Columbia (and Puerto Rico as of January 31, 2014).

That is directly from their own FAQ.  You are correct, i've gone to many events, Weddings, Parties, etc where guests, like neuro, has better gear than myself...  The difference is i'm getting paid and entrusted by the hosts of the event to provide the images for the event, wedding, whatever the case may be.  My gear is critical to my families income so I cannot have them go down or i'm out of business.  CPS is aimed to help us working professionals so we can experiment with new gear, buy new gear, and help us if our gear goes down to get it back up and running the best way possible.

Again, let us all be reminded that Canon is a business. One with a lot of people that have monetary interest in. The goal of any business is to make money. If you don't like the way the program is being run, I would think the correct direction to aim your frustration would be the company themselves for setting it up this way.

You defining or saying that CPS is for.... is mere conjecture on your part as you have no idea what their business model is or what their true intentions for CPS are. You appear to simply be upset at the fact that they are not running it the way YOU see fit and have somehow decided that it is the amateur consumer's fault.

FWIW
I keep hearing the mention of how if photography is someone's main source of income and their livelihood depends on it, their needs are inherently more important. Well hell, I once had the dream of being a photographer for a living as well. Instead, I sucked it up and took on a career doing something I could care less about so that I could fund what I loved to do instead. And now, I have the money for the gear and a membership only to have people like you try to tell me that I'm somehow bending the rules or taking advantage for my own selfish gain at your expense.

I'll tell you what. If photography were my chosen profession and things were the way they are, I wouldn't so much cry about it as I would be working to find a way to make more money so that I wouldn't have to worry so much when my gear does go out. But that's just me.

Yes John, Seriously... They need to know what their general customer base thinks of their products and services... They replied saying they have forwarded it to the management... so, if they agree with your motto, they will leave it be, if they dont, then they will wake up and make some changes to their policies.  It's not whether or not they are doing it MY way or not, it's about doing it according to their own rules and regs.

My position still stands and I'm pretty sure that the core of their concern will be their general customer base and their willingness to pump more money into their company. I currently have over 25k in Canon equipment in my house and am prepping myself to buy whatever they have brewing in the works for their next pro level body. They could theoretically begin to exclude people like me, but that only serves to put a black eye on their business for consumers like myself who have spent significant amounts of their non-qualified incomes on Canon products.

Perhaps they will in fact boot the large number of high dollar spending amateurs in hopes of pleasing the pros that spend less and I will be back here reading the "I told you so" comments.  ;D

So, you want to be a part of a program you, according to their rules, are not entitled to even be in, in the first place, and say it would be a black eye for them to enforce their own freaking rules?  Are you high or something?  My point still stands, either enforce your rules or change your rules to encompass your actual positioning...  Dont have a set of rules and break them.

Again, that is at the company's discretion and not the consumer's. So as you have already done, the issue has been brought to their attention. No need to try to affect the consumer's mentality through your remarks as they have no control over it.

And no, I am not high. As a matter of fact, I think I've made very logical arguments (albeit without accusing people of being "high").

Again I ask, so you believe the ONLY people that should have the right to be in CPS should be FULL-TIME pros that use photography as their main source of income? As others have stated before, most photographers I know do a number of various things to make money including workshops, stock photo, extra job on the side, renting out gear, etc.

If your answer to my question is yes, then please diagram (in a very specific fashion) for me how it is you would set the criteria to determine just how "pro" you have to be in order to qualify? This should include type of work, hours spent, amount of income, percentages earned from photography, etc. It would need to be a feasible model for Canon to operate their program under.

The other question I would then ask is, how many memberships would still be left after you excluded all the consumers that don't fit into that model?

And for the record, I have read the rules and guidelines. However, I have stated many of the ways in which ambiguity are present.
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: awinphoto on December 19, 2013, 04:05:27 PM
CPS is aimed for Professionals, and i'm sure if they were to find out that you were not a professional, you could lose your status.  Being both a professional and a CPS member, i find threads like these kind of sad, but, for those who take advantage and bend the rules for your own gain, karma always comes back around...
CPS is a service to those who spend enough money on Canon´s pro gear. Wether you´re a pro, an enthusiast or a wealthy gadget collector does not matter. To exclude non-pros would be very poor judgement.

Wrong.  according to Canon CPS, Membership is available only to those individuals (self-employed or employed by a professional imaging business), who plays a direct role in the creation of moving or still images for third parties on a full-time basis and are legal residents of the 50 United States, the District of Columbia (and Puerto Rico as of January 31, 2014).

That is directly from their own FAQ.  You are correct, i've gone to many events, Weddings, Parties, etc where guests, like neuro, has better gear than myself...  The difference is i'm getting paid and entrusted by the hosts of the event to provide the images for the event, wedding, whatever the case may be.  My gear is critical to my families income so I cannot have them go down or i'm out of business.  CPS is aimed to help us working professionals so we can experiment with new gear, buy new gear, and help us if our gear goes down to get it back up and running the best way possible.

Again, let us all be reminded that Canon is a business. One with a lot of people that have monetary interest in. The goal of any business is to make money. If you don't like the way the program is being run, I would think the correct direction to aim your frustration would be the company themselves for setting it up this way.

You defining or saying that CPS is for.... is mere conjecture on your part as you have no idea what their business model is or what their true intentions for CPS are. You appear to simply be upset at the fact that they are not running it the way YOU see fit and have somehow decided that it is the amateur consumer's fault.

FWIW
I keep hearing the mention of how if photography is someone's main source of income and their livelihood depends on it, their needs are inherently more important. Well hell, I once had the dream of being a photographer for a living as well. Instead, I sucked it up and took on a career doing something I could care less about so that I could fund what I loved to do instead. And now, I have the money for the gear and a membership only to have people like you try to tell me that I'm somehow bending the rules or taking advantage for my own selfish gain at your expense.

I'll tell you what. If photography were my chosen profession and things were the way they are, I wouldn't so much cry about it as I would be working to find a way to make more money so that I wouldn't have to worry so much when my gear does go out. But that's just me.

Yes John, Seriously... They need to know what their general customer base thinks of their products and services... They replied saying they have forwarded it to the management... so, if they agree with your motto, they will leave it be, if they dont, then they will wake up and make some changes to their policies.  It's not whether or not they are doing it MY way or not, it's about doing it according to their own rules and regs.

My position still stands and I'm pretty sure that the core of their concern will be their general customer base and their willingness to pump more money into their company. I currently have over 25k in Canon equipment in my house and am prepping myself to buy whatever they have brewing in the works for their next pro level body. They could theoretically begin to exclude people like me, but that only serves to put a black eye on their business for consumers like myself who have spent significant amounts of their non-qualified incomes on Canon products.

Perhaps they will in fact boot the large number of high dollar spending amateurs in hopes of pleasing the pros that spend less and I will be back here reading the "I told you so" comments.  ;D

So, you want to be a part of a program you, according to their rules, are not entitled to even be in, in the first place, and say it would be a black eye for them to enforce their own freaking rules?  Are you high or something?  My point still stands, either enforce your rules or change your rules to encompass your actual positioning...  Dont have a set of rules and break them.

Again, that is at the company's discretion and not the consumer's. So as you have already done, the issue has been brought to their attention. No need to try to affect the consumer's mentality through your remarks as they have no control over it.

And no, I am not high. As a matter of fact, I think I've made very logical arguments (albeit without accusing people of being "high").

Again I ask, so you believe the ONLY people that should have the right to be in CPS should be FULL-TIME pros that use photography as their main source of income? As others have stated before, most photographers I know do a number of various things to make money including workshops, stock photo, extra job on the side, renting out gear, etc.

If your answer to my question is yes, then please diagram (in a very specific fashion) for me how it is you would set the criteria to determine just how "pro" you have to be in order to qualify? This should include type of work, hours spent, amount of income, percentages earned from photography, etc. It would need to be a feasible model for Canon to operate their program under.

The other question I would then ask is, how many memberships would still be left after you excluded all the consumers that don't fit into that model?

John, your arguments that you presented are more of the entitlist opinion of "what do you have that makes YOU (Pros) more special than anyone else to qualify for this service"... That's basically it in a nutshell... My opinion and argument is they, Canon, have already detailed what they want to qualify for this service within the USA... other countries and regions vary and are subject to their own rules. 

This is how it is worded in Canon's USA CPS website: Membership is available only to those individuals (self-employed or employed by a professional imaging business), who plays a direct role in the creation of moving or still images for third parties on a full-time basis and are legal residents of the 50 United States, the District of Columbia (and Puerto Rico as of January 31, 2014).

So, based on THEIR rules, you have to make images, self employed, or staff of a photography studio or business in charge of making photography for other people or companies on a FULL TIME basis.  There's no gray area... there's no maybe maybe-not...  it's pretty black and white....  Most people assume full time as being 30+ hours a week...  I'm sure if you talk to any full time working professional photographer, most will say they work almost double that at times.  It's pretty simple... those are their rules.  Enforce them or change them...

As for your other questions, yes, if you dont qualify as a full time working professional, according to THEIR RULES, they would wouldn't qualify.  How many would they lose in that program?  Probably a good chunk, but they would have their target audience in that program.  I'm sure most people who would lose their membership, unlike you, already knew they were bending rules and knew, as they have it on the books, was just a matter of time.  But, i'm also saying that if this is indeed what they want, then they MUST change the rules to specify WHAT AND TO WHAT LIMITS they want their CPS members to be and then increase the equipment and services to best suit their customers. 
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: JohnDizzo15 on December 19, 2013, 04:17:09 PM
This thread veered off into emotional territory, but there were a couple of responses early about cost vs. return.

I believe CPS is better analyzed as insurance. You don't plan to have all the money back in services every year.

As noted they looked at the cost and increased our dollar contribution while lowering the offer. I asked a rep andhe seemed to confirm. Not an official comment. i was Gold and let it lapse... still thinking about Platinum, for which I qualify. Loaners now require a longer lead time.

According to the pro'est of pros, you are wrong for looking at it like insurance.  ;D
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: JohnDizzo15 on December 19, 2013, 04:18:30 PM
CPS is aimed for Professionals, and i'm sure if they were to find out that you were not a professional, you could lose your status.  Being both a professional and a CPS member, i find threads like these kind of sad, but, for those who take advantage and bend the rules for your own gain, karma always comes back around...
CPS is a service to those who spend enough money on Canon´s pro gear. Wether you´re a pro, an enthusiast or a wealthy gadget collector does not matter. To exclude non-pros would be very poor judgement.

Wrong.  according to Canon CPS, Membership is available only to those individuals (self-employed or employed by a professional imaging business), who plays a direct role in the creation of moving or still images for third parties on a full-time basis and are legal residents of the 50 United States, the District of Columbia (and Puerto Rico as of January 31, 2014).

That is directly from their own FAQ.  You are correct, i've gone to many events, Weddings, Parties, etc where guests, like neuro, has better gear than myself...  The difference is i'm getting paid and entrusted by the hosts of the event to provide the images for the event, wedding, whatever the case may be.  My gear is critical to my families income so I cannot have them go down or i'm out of business.  CPS is aimed to help us working professionals so we can experiment with new gear, buy new gear, and help us if our gear goes down to get it back up and running the best way possible.

Again, let us all be reminded that Canon is a business. One with a lot of people that have monetary interest in. The goal of any business is to make money. If you don't like the way the program is being run, I would think the correct direction to aim your frustration would be the company themselves for setting it up this way.

You defining or saying that CPS is for.... is mere conjecture on your part as you have no idea what their business model is or what their true intentions for CPS are. You appear to simply be upset at the fact that they are not running it the way YOU see fit and have somehow decided that it is the amateur consumer's fault.

FWIW
I keep hearing the mention of how if photography is someone's main source of income and their livelihood depends on it, their needs are inherently more important. Well hell, I once had the dream of being a photographer for a living as well. Instead, I sucked it up and took on a career doing something I could care less about so that I could fund what I loved to do instead. And now, I have the money for the gear and a membership only to have people like you try to tell me that I'm somehow bending the rules or taking advantage for my own selfish gain at your expense.

I'll tell you what. If photography were my chosen profession and things were the way they are, I wouldn't so much cry about it as I would be working to find a way to make more money so that I wouldn't have to worry so much when my gear does go out. But that's just me.

Yes John, Seriously... They need to know what their general customer base thinks of their products and services... They replied saying they have forwarded it to the management... so, if they agree with your motto, they will leave it be, if they dont, then they will wake up and make some changes to their policies.  It's not whether or not they are doing it MY way or not, it's about doing it according to their own rules and regs.

My position still stands and I'm pretty sure that the core of their concern will be their general customer base and their willingness to pump more money into their company. I currently have over 25k in Canon equipment in my house and am prepping myself to buy whatever they have brewing in the works for their next pro level body. They could theoretically begin to exclude people like me, but that only serves to put a black eye on their business for consumers like myself who have spent significant amounts of their non-qualified incomes on Canon products.

Perhaps they will in fact boot the large number of high dollar spending amateurs in hopes of pleasing the pros that spend less and I will be back here reading the "I told you so" comments.  ;D

So, you want to be a part of a program you, according to their rules, are not entitled to even be in, in the first place, and say it would be a black eye for them to enforce their own freaking rules?  Are you high or something?  My point still stands, either enforce your rules or change your rules to encompass your actual positioning...  Dont have a set of rules and break them.

Again, that is at the company's discretion and not the consumer's. So as you have already done, the issue has been brought to their attention. No need to try to affect the consumer's mentality through your remarks as they have no control over it.

And no, I am not high. As a matter of fact, I think I've made very logical arguments (albeit without accusing people of being "high").

Again I ask, so you believe the ONLY people that should have the right to be in CPS should be FULL-TIME pros that use photography as their main source of income? As others have stated before, most photographers I know do a number of various things to make money including workshops, stock photo, extra job on the side, renting out gear, etc.

If your answer to my question is yes, then please diagram (in a very specific fashion) for me how it is you would set the criteria to determine just how "pro" you have to be in order to qualify? This should include type of work, hours spent, amount of income, percentages earned from photography, etc. It would need to be a feasible model for Canon to operate their program under.

The other question I would then ask is, how many memberships would still be left after you excluded all the consumers that don't fit into that model?

John, your arguments that you presented are more of the entitlist opinion of "what do you have that makes YOU (Pros) more special than anyone else to qualify for this service"... That's basically it in a nutshell... My opinion and argument is they, Canon, have already detailed what they want to qualify for this service within the USA... other countries and regions vary and are subject to their own rules. 

This is how it is worded in Canon's USA CPS website: Membership is available only to those individuals (self-employed or employed by a professional imaging business), who plays a direct role in the creation of moving or still images for third parties on a full-time basis and are legal residents of the 50 United States, the District of Columbia (and Puerto Rico as of January 31, 2014).

So, based on THEIR rules, you have to make images, self employed, or staff of a photography studio or business in charge of making photography for other people or companies on a FULL TIME basis.  There's no gray area... there's no maybe maybe-not...  it's pretty black and white....  Most people assume full time as being 30+ hours a week...  I'm sure if you talk to any full time working professional photographer, most will say they work almost double that at times.  It's pretty simple... those are their rules.  Enforce them or change them...

As for your other questions, yes, if you dont qualify as a full time working professional, according to THEIR RULES, they would wouldn't qualify.  How many would they lose in that program?  Probably a good chunk, but they would have their target audience in that program.  I'm sure most people who would lose their membership, unlike you, already knew they were bending rules and knew, as they have it on the books, was just a matter of time.  But, i'm also saying that if this is indeed what they want, then they MUST change the rules to specify WHAT AND TO WHAT LIMITS they want their CPS members to be and then increase the equipment and services to best suit their customers.

We will agree to disagree. Hopefully Canon will beef up their admittance process and better serve the minority for your sake at the cost of current and potential revenue.
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: awinphoto on December 19, 2013, 04:23:33 PM
CPS is aimed for Professionals, and i'm sure if they were to find out that you were not a professional, you could lose your status.  Being both a professional and a CPS member, i find threads like these kind of sad, but, for those who take advantage and bend the rules for your own gain, karma always comes back around...
CPS is a service to those who spend enough money on Canon´s pro gear. Wether you´re a pro, an enthusiast or a wealthy gadget collector does not matter. To exclude non-pros would be very poor judgement.

Wrong.  according to Canon CPS, Membership is available only to those individuals (self-employed or employed by a professional imaging business), who plays a direct role in the creation of moving or still images for third parties on a full-time basis and are legal residents of the 50 United States, the District of Columbia (and Puerto Rico as of January 31, 2014).

That is directly from their own FAQ.  You are correct, i've gone to many events, Weddings, Parties, etc where guests, like neuro, has better gear than myself...  The difference is i'm getting paid and entrusted by the hosts of the event to provide the images for the event, wedding, whatever the case may be.  My gear is critical to my families income so I cannot have them go down or i'm out of business.  CPS is aimed to help us working professionals so we can experiment with new gear, buy new gear, and help us if our gear goes down to get it back up and running the best way possible.

Again, let us all be reminded that Canon is a business. One with a lot of people that have monetary interest in. The goal of any business is to make money. If you don't like the way the program is being run, I would think the correct direction to aim your frustration would be the company themselves for setting it up this way.

You defining or saying that CPS is for.... is mere conjecture on your part as you have no idea what their business model is or what their true intentions for CPS are. You appear to simply be upset at the fact that they are not running it the way YOU see fit and have somehow decided that it is the amateur consumer's fault.

FWIW
I keep hearing the mention of how if photography is someone's main source of income and their livelihood depends on it, their needs are inherently more important. Well hell, I once had the dream of being a photographer for a living as well. Instead, I sucked it up and took on a career doing something I could care less about so that I could fund what I loved to do instead. And now, I have the money for the gear and a membership only to have people like you try to tell me that I'm somehow bending the rules or taking advantage for my own selfish gain at your expense.

I'll tell you what. If photography were my chosen profession and things were the way they are, I wouldn't so much cry about it as I would be working to find a way to make more money so that I wouldn't have to worry so much when my gear does go out. But that's just me.

Yes John, Seriously... They need to know what their general customer base thinks of their products and services... They replied saying they have forwarded it to the management... so, if they agree with your motto, they will leave it be, if they dont, then they will wake up and make some changes to their policies.  It's not whether or not they are doing it MY way or not, it's about doing it according to their own rules and regs.

My position still stands and I'm pretty sure that the core of their concern will be their general customer base and their willingness to pump more money into their company. I currently have over 25k in Canon equipment in my house and am prepping myself to buy whatever they have brewing in the works for their next pro level body. They could theoretically begin to exclude people like me, but that only serves to put a black eye on their business for consumers like myself who have spent significant amounts of their non-qualified incomes on Canon products.

Perhaps they will in fact boot the large number of high dollar spending amateurs in hopes of pleasing the pros that spend less and I will be back here reading the "I told you so" comments.  ;D

So, you want to be a part of a program you, according to their rules, are not entitled to even be in, in the first place, and say it would be a black eye for them to enforce their own freaking rules?  Are you high or something?  My point still stands, either enforce your rules or change your rules to encompass your actual positioning...  Dont have a set of rules and break them.

Again, that is at the company's discretion and not the consumer's. So as you have already done, the issue has been brought to their attention. No need to try to affect the consumer's mentality through your remarks as they have no control over it.

And no, I am not high. As a matter of fact, I think I've made very logical arguments (albeit without accusing people of being "high").

Again I ask, so you believe the ONLY people that should have the right to be in CPS should be FULL-TIME pros that use photography as their main source of income? As others have stated before, most photographers I know do a number of various things to make money including workshops, stock photo, extra job on the side, renting out gear, etc.

If your answer to my question is yes, then please diagram (in a very specific fashion) for me how it is you would set the criteria to determine just how "pro" you have to be in order to qualify? This should include type of work, hours spent, amount of income, percentages earned from photography, etc. It would need to be a feasible model for Canon to operate their program under.

The other question I would then ask is, how many memberships would still be left after you excluded all the consumers that don't fit into that model?

John, your arguments that you presented are more of the entitlist opinion of "what do you have that makes YOU (Pros) more special than anyone else to qualify for this service"... That's basically it in a nutshell... My opinion and argument is they, Canon, have already detailed what they want to qualify for this service within the USA... other countries and regions vary and are subject to their own rules. 

This is how it is worded in Canon's USA CPS website: Membership is available only to those individuals (self-employed or employed by a professional imaging business), who plays a direct role in the creation of moving or still images for third parties on a full-time basis and are legal residents of the 50 United States, the District of Columbia (and Puerto Rico as of January 31, 2014).

So, based on THEIR rules, you have to make images, self employed, or staff of a photography studio or business in charge of making photography for other people or companies on a FULL TIME basis.  There's no gray area... there's no maybe maybe-not...  it's pretty black and white....  Most people assume full time as being 30+ hours a week...  I'm sure if you talk to any full time working professional photographer, most will say they work almost double that at times.  It's pretty simple... those are their rules.  Enforce them or change them...

As for your other questions, yes, if you dont qualify as a full time working professional, according to THEIR RULES, they would wouldn't qualify.  How many would they lose in that program?  Probably a good chunk, but they would have their target audience in that program.  I'm sure most people who would lose their membership, unlike you, already knew they were bending rules and knew, as they have it on the books, was just a matter of time.  But, i'm also saying that if this is indeed what they want, then they MUST change the rules to specify WHAT AND TO WHAT LIMITS they want their CPS members to be and then increase the equipment and services to best suit their customers.

We will agree to disagree. Hopefully Canon will beef up their admittance process and better serve the minority for your sake at the cost of current and potential revenue.

Agree to disagree on what?  Thats their rules on their website about qualifying candidates...  dont shoot the messenger...  They can do what they want to do, but they need to make their minds up either way and either enforce or change the rules and open it up to practically anyone with a cool 10k in disposable income... 
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: JohnDizzo15 on December 19, 2013, 04:36:13 PM
Agree to disagree on what?  Thats their rules on their website about qualifying candidates...  dont shoot the messenger...  They can do what they want to do, but they need to make their minds up either way and either enforce or change the rules and open it up to practically anyone with a cool 10k in disposable income...

We will agree to disagree on whether there is ambuity in their guidelines.

I don't care to shoot the messenger nor am I trying. The problem is, I never asked for the messenger to bring me a message about what it is that I'm doing. You, however have decided that it is necessary to bring all of us your message. We can all read and write which is quite evident if you have been a part of this thread.

And no, they do not NEED to make up their minds. YOU feel they need to. They do not NEED to enforce anything. Again, YOU feel they need to. They can continue to do exactly as they are now and you will either continue playing the game or you won't. Either way, it is THEIR business and they are running it how THEY see fit. If they wanted to exclude people in a more stringent fashion, they could and would do so. They haven't. As such, your sub-group of consumers appears to be the only one with a problem.
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: JohnDizzo15 on December 19, 2013, 04:39:22 PM
The adolescent moment when the kid that wasn't happy with the game decided to take his ball and go home.....
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: awinphoto on December 19, 2013, 04:50:36 PM
Agree to disagree on what?  Thats their rules on their website about qualifying candidates...  dont shoot the messenger...  They can do what they want to do, but they need to make their minds up either way and either enforce or change the rules and open it up to practically anyone with a cool 10k in disposable income...

We will agree to disagree on whether there is ambuity in their guidelines.

I don't care to shoot the messenger nor am I trying. The problem is, I never asked for the messenger to bring me a message about what it is that I'm doing. You, however have decided that it is necessary to bring all of us your message. We can all read and write which is quite evident if you have been a part of this thread.

And no, they do not NEED to make up their minds. YOU feel they need to. They do not NEED to enforce anything. Again, YOU feel they need to. They can continue to do exactly as they are now and you will either continue playing the game or you won't. Either way, it is THEIR business and they are running it how THEY see fit. If they wanted to exclude people in a more stringent fashion, they could and would do so. They haven't. As such, your sub-group of consumers appears to be the only one with a problem.

okay... since you seem to defy logic, lets look at another situation...  immigration... there are very strict and specific rules on what is and is not legal immigration and who can and cannot be a US Citizen.  Everyone can CLEARLY see that illegal immigration is a problem.  No one is denying that.  You have to have your head in the sand to not see that issue.  Now, the left wing of the aisle is saying that those who are here should still stay here even though they broke rules and immigrated regardless, and the right side of the aisle is saying they should leave or pay higher fee's and other requirements to stay... Clearly the system is broken or they wouldn't be in this situation in the first place. 

Like this, they had the rules, and people with your mind set SAW that requirement of Full Time Professional Photographer or Image Maker and decided, eh, canon will NEVER know if I try to pull the wool over their eyes...  Those rules dont apply to me, and apply anyways.  You get accepted and now you feel entitled to the program even though the rules are clearly flawed and broken.  Now you are saying, that's OK, they NEED me dang it, they NEED my money...  Keep me in your system and i'll buy another camera...  All the pro's who thise program is meant for are selfish for wanting this to be exclusive.  If you really think their is nothing wrong with your thinking of the rules and how you apply to THEIR rules, then i'm not the one with the problem. 

PS., I'M not saying your not of a professional level or quality... that's not for me to decide, thats your customers... BUT, you clearly state your NOT a full time professional photographer...  Since that is the rule to join the program, I'M just saying, if they were to follow that rule, then you wouldn't qualify.  Nothing more nothing less.  I'm not attacking you or your status, i'm just saying IF you are indeed eligible to qualify in their program, and they are ok with it, then they need to change that rule so it's fair for all people, like you. 
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: privatebydesign on December 19, 2013, 04:56:08 PM

We will agree to disagree. Hopefully Canon will beef up their admittance process and better serve the minority for your sake at the cost of current and potential revenue.

John,

You have it the wrong way round, it is just a new revenue stream not an economical professional support service. In the last shake up they relaxed the rules specifically to allow all the non pros that wanted to join and had the points, remember having to supply tear sheets, letter headed profiles and confirmation? Well the user base wasn't enough to support the efforts Canon put in and they saw the opportunity to make some money so they loosened it all, they let people pay in for not much value and maintained a semi useful Platinum level for the true working pros that could blow $500 a year. The funny thing is the only real value you get is if you go to one of the big events where CPS make a large presence, you can get loaners up the wazoo. The stupidest bit is they always set up in an area only open to accredited press and if you are accredited press they don't care if you are a CPS member anyway.
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: JohnDizzo15 on December 19, 2013, 04:59:10 PM
Agree to disagree on what?  Thats their rules on their website about qualifying candidates...  dont shoot the messenger...  They can do what they want to do, but they need to make their minds up either way and either enforce or change the rules and open it up to practically anyone with a cool 10k in disposable income...

We will agree to disagree on whether there is ambuity in their guidelines.

I don't care to shoot the messenger nor am I trying. The problem is, I never asked for the messenger to bring me a message about what it is that I'm doing. You, however have decided that it is necessary to bring all of us your message. We can all read and write which is quite evident if you have been a part of this thread.

And no, they do not NEED to make up their minds. YOU feel they need to. They do not NEED to enforce anything. Again, YOU feel they need to. They can continue to do exactly as they are now and you will either continue playing the game or you won't. Either way, it is THEIR business and they are running it how THEY see fit. If they wanted to exclude people in a more stringent fashion, they could and would do so. They haven't. As such, your sub-group of consumers appears to be the only one with a problem.

okay... since you seem to defy logic, lets look at another situation...  immigration... there are very strict and specific rules on what is and is not legal immigration and who can and cannot be a US Citizen.  Everyone can CLEARLY see that illegal immigration is a problem.  No one is denying that.  You have to have your head in the sand to not see that issue.  Now, the left wing of the aisle is saying that those who are here should still stay here even though they broke rules and immigrated regardless, and the right side of the aisle is saying they should leave or pay higher fee's and other requirements to stay... Clearly the system is broken or they wouldn't be in this situation in the first place. 

Like this, they had the rules, and people with your mind set SAW that requirement of Full Time Professional Photographer or Image Maker and decided, eh, canon will NEVER know if I try to pull the wool over their eyes...  Those rules dont apply to me, and apply anyways.  You get accepted and now you feel entitled to the program even though the rules are clearly flawed and broken.  Now you are saying, that's OK, they NEED me dang it, they NEED my money...  Keep me in your system and i'll buy another camera...  All the pro's who thise program is meant for are selfish for wanting this to be exclusive.  If you really think their is nothing wrong with your thinking of the rules and how you apply to THEIR rules, then i'm not the one with the problem. 

PS., I'M not saying your not of a professional level or quality... that's not for me to decide, thats your customers... BUT, you clearly state your NOT a full time professional photographer...  Since that is the rule to join the program, I'M just saying, if they were to follow that rule, then you wouldn't qualify.  Nothing more nothing less.  I'm not attacking you or your status, i'm just saying IF you are indeed eligible to qualify in their program, and they are ok with it, then they need to change that rule so it's fair for all people, like you.

Funny that you mention that as an analogy because the interior law enforcement end of that is actually my profession. In many ways, it is comparing apples to oranges for many reasons. However, I do agree that there are some parallels.

Ultimately though, the decision to run the program however it is run falls on Canon. They do not have lobbyists, special interest groups, and various politicians pressuring them to fix or change the system so long as it is working the way they want it to. If the program no longer suffices for your needs, you are free to take your money elsewhere. In immigration related issues, all of us taxpayers are forced to buy in and do not have that same luxury.
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: JohnDizzo15 on December 19, 2013, 05:01:57 PM

We will agree to disagree. Hopefully Canon will beef up their admittance process and better serve the minority for your sake at the cost of current and potential revenue.

John,

You have it the wrong way round, it is just a new revenue stream not an economical professional support service. In the last shake up they relaxed the rules specifically to allow all the non pros that wanted to join and had the points, remember having to supply tear sheets, letter headed profiles and confirmation? Well the user base wasn't enough to support the efforts Canon put in and they saw the opportunity to make some money so they loosened it all, they let people pay in for not much value and maintained a semi useful Platinum level for the true working pros that could blow $500 a year. The funny thing is the only real value you get is if you go to one of the big events where CPS make a large presence, you can get loaners up the wazoo. The stupidest bit is they always set up in an area only open to accredited press and if you are accredited press they don't care if you are a CPS member anyway.

I was actually being facetious in that comment and I completely agree with what you have said.
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: Ruined on December 19, 2013, 05:07:08 PM
awinphoto, you do realize if your wish is granted either the cost you pay for CPS will significantly increase or the benefits you receive will significantly decrease, right?  As the "users" you think Canon should boot are the ones making them the most money off of the program and in general, as they likely require little to no service compared to a full time professional.  Thus, their membership actually benefits you as they drive down the cost of your CPS membership and allow for increased benefits.

All for what, so you can flash a CPS membership as an exclusive badge of honor or something?  I don't see the downside, only economic upsides.

If you don't win your argument, more customers are serviced and satisfied.
If you win your argument, you are going to pay more and/or receive less out of the service.
Either way, you'd essentially lose.

Simple economics.

So again, what is the purpose for arguing this again?

Also, for the record, I believe Canon has set it up the way it is now to satisfy people who think they should be in this "exclusive full time professional club" by having that message on their site, but for economic/sustainability reasons actually allowing anyone who has the points to join.  Very smart business.
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: JohnDizzo15 on December 19, 2013, 05:14:28 PM
awinphoto, you do realize if your wish is granted either the cost you pay for CPS will significantly increase or the benefits you receive will significantly decrease, right?  As the "users" you think Canon should boot are the ones making them the most money off of the program and in general, as they likely require little to no service compared to a full time professional.  Thus, their membership actually benefits you as they drive down the cost of your CPS membership and allow for increased benefits.

All for what, so you can flash a CPS membership as an exclusive badge of honor or something?  I don't see the downside, only economic upsides.

If you don't win your argument, more customers are serviced and satisfied.
If you win your argument, you are going to pay more and/or receive less out of the service.
Either way, you'd essentially lose.

Simple economics.

So again, what is the purpose for arguing this again?

Also, for the record, I believe Canon has set it up the way it is now to satisfy people who think they should be in this "exclusive full time professional club" by having that message on their site, but for economic/sustainability reasons actually allowing anyone who has the points to join.  Very smart business.

Absolutely agree.
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: awinphoto on December 19, 2013, 05:20:50 PM
awinphoto, you do realize if your wish is granted either the cost you pay for CPS will significantly increase or the benefits you receive will significantly decrease, right?  As the "users" you think Canon should boot are the ones making them the most money off of the program and in general, as they likely require little to no service compared to a full time professional.  Thus, their membership actually benefits you as they drive down the cost of your CPS membership and allow for increased benefits.

All for what, so you can flash a CPS membership as an exclusive badge of honor or something?  I don't see the downside, only economic upsides.

If you don't win your argument, more customers are serviced and satisfied.
If you win your argument, you are going to pay more and/or receive less out of the service.
Either way, you'd essentially lose.

Simple economics.

So again, what is the purpose for arguing this again?

Also, for the record, I believe Canon has set it up the way it is now to satisfy people who think they should be in this "exclusive full time professional club" by having that message on their site, but for economic/sustainability reasons actually allowing anyone who has the points to join.  Very smart business.

If i'm not mistakened, many moons ago before the system was abused and neglected, prices were the same, and ahem, we had more services, more discounts, yearly gifts with our membership, and that has taken a big hit, especially recently, because of the membership, so your statement makes NO SENSE
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: awinphoto on December 19, 2013, 05:23:05 PM
Agree to disagree on what?  Thats their rules on their website about qualifying candidates...  dont shoot the messenger...  They can do what they want to do, but they need to make their minds up either way and either enforce or change the rules and open it up to practically anyone with a cool 10k in disposable income...

We will agree to disagree on whether there is ambuity in their guidelines.

I don't care to shoot the messenger nor am I trying. The problem is, I never asked for the messenger to bring me a message about what it is that I'm doing. You, however have decided that it is necessary to bring all of us your message. We can all read and write which is quite evident if you have been a part of this thread.

And no, they do not NEED to make up their minds. YOU feel they need to. They do not NEED to enforce anything. Again, YOU feel they need to. They can continue to do exactly as they are now and you will either continue playing the game or you won't. Either way, it is THEIR business and they are running it how THEY see fit. If they wanted to exclude people in a more stringent fashion, they could and would do so. They haven't. As such, your sub-group of consumers appears to be the only one with a problem.

okay... since you seem to defy logic, lets look at another situation...  immigration... there are very strict and specific rules on what is and is not legal immigration and who can and cannot be a US Citizen.  Everyone can CLEARLY see that illegal immigration is a problem.  No one is denying that.  You have to have your head in the sand to not see that issue.  Now, the left wing of the aisle is saying that those who are here should still stay here even though they broke rules and immigrated regardless, and the right side of the aisle is saying they should leave or pay higher fee's and other requirements to stay... Clearly the system is broken or they wouldn't be in this situation in the first place. 

Like this, they had the rules, and people with your mind set SAW that requirement of Full Time Professional Photographer or Image Maker and decided, eh, canon will NEVER know if I try to pull the wool over their eyes...  Those rules dont apply to me, and apply anyways.  You get accepted and now you feel entitled to the program even though the rules are clearly flawed and broken.  Now you are saying, that's OK, they NEED me dang it, they NEED my money...  Keep me in your system and i'll buy another camera...  All the pro's who thise program is meant for are selfish for wanting this to be exclusive.  If you really think their is nothing wrong with your thinking of the rules and how you apply to THEIR rules, then i'm not the one with the problem. 

PS., I'M not saying your not of a professional level or quality... that's not for me to decide, thats your customers... BUT, you clearly state your NOT a full time professional photographer...  Since that is the rule to join the program, I'M just saying, if they were to follow that rule, then you wouldn't qualify.  Nothing more nothing less.  I'm not attacking you or your status, i'm just saying IF you are indeed eligible to qualify in their program, and they are ok with it, then they need to change that rule so it's fair for all people, like you.

Funny that you mention that as an analogy because the interior law enforcement end of that is actually my profession. In many ways, it is comparing apples to oranges for many reasons. However, I do agree that there are some parallels.

Ultimately though, the decision to run the program however it is run falls on Canon. They do not have lobbyists, special interest groups, and various politicians pressuring them to fix or change the system so long as it is working the way they want it to. If the program no longer suffices for your needs, you are free to take your money elsewhere. In immigration related issues, all of us taxpayers are forced to buy in and do not have that same luxury.

Ok, let me throw your question right back at you... IF the system, in your opinion is fine and dont fix it... okay... what makes YOU more important than any other consumer who would want to be a part of CPS but see's the full time photographer requirement and stays away?  What makes you any more special?  Gotcha... 

So if that requirement is no longer a requirement, make it official and let everyone know, not JUST people like you who skirt the rules. 
Title: Re: CPS...do you indeed have to be a pro or can anyone sign up?
Post by: neuroanatomist on December 19, 2013, 09:00:24 PM
As a professional, i dont always have the funding to get the best gear as it is my livelyhood and i have no other funding, day jobs, etc to pay for my gear... if my gear goes down and CPS cant help me right away because some other non-pro has the gear i would need loaned to them, then i'm losing money or not being able to accept jobs and that hurt my bottom line and darn right i'm going to be peeved.  It is what it is.  CPS is Canon Professional Services, not Canon Insurance Services or Canon I want to be a photographer but have lots of money services...

As others have pointed out, CPS is a country-specific revenue stream for Canon...and Canon excels at making money.  The top-level 'requirement' (color-coded with big-font numbers) is buying enough gear to have enough points to qualify. The 'full-time' bit is fine print. Compare that to NPS, where you need sponsorship from a current member, vouching for your status (most scientific societies have a similar requirement, often two members need to sign for an applicant sponsorship). 

I've seen posts by pro photogs about getting lenses on loan from CPS for shoots, stating they have no intention of buying the lens (usually an expensive one like a TS-E 17/4L or 300/2.8L IS II).  It's called the 'evaluation loan' program, so using it as a free rental service is also a way of gaming the system. Is it ok because 'pros' are the ones doing it?  OTOH, looking at the gear lists of some of the less budget-constrained non-pros posting on this thread, Canon could reasonably assume that if someone like us 'evaluates' an expensive lens, they're quite likely going to get a sale.  Plus, many of the well-heeled people posting here don't really need a free evaluation - they'll just pay for a rental, or more likely, do their research then just buy it. The latter has been my habit - and when I'm not sure I want it, I just buy it used on Craiglist, then sell it (usually for no net loss) if it's not something I want to keep.

Also, most of the non-pros I've seen posting about joining CPS have mentioned doing so mainly for the repair discount (and frequently after they've broken a piece of gear), not to borrow equipment you might need (assuming the repair loan and evaluation loan pools are the same, not sure they are).

There are plenty of 'winked-at' rules in our society.  The speed limit isn't just a policy, it's the law.  Have you ever exceeded the speed limit?  Are you out there demanding 'enforcement' so people get tickets for going 58 mph on the highway?  You're a pro, I respect that.  But high horses, glass houses, and all that.