canon rumors FORUM

Gear Talk => Canon General => Topic started by: wellfedCanuck on October 17, 2011, 04:25:46 PM

Title: "Holy cow. Time to throw my 7D in the bin."
Post by: wellfedCanuck on October 17, 2011, 04:25:46 PM
http://vimeo.com/30578363 (http://vimeo.com/30578363)

While I don't necessarily agree with the producer of that video, (and I think he was being somewhat facetious) -this is the future. I share this link in response to that guy berating "iTards" or the many comments here about unwanted/unneeded features such as GPS and WIFI in the next batch of DSLRs.

The point is- if Apple can include these features in a tiny little phone that sells for $169 under contract- then Canon better start placing them in larger, multi-thousand dollar cameras.

Yes, there will always be a need for pro gear with interchangeable lens. But, you top-end guys need the great unwashed masses to subsidize your toys. Canon, Nikon, et al, need their point and shoot markets to fund R&D. Joe Hobbyist (and I just got off a cruise ship loaded with 7Ds and 5D2s) wants his toy to do everything an iPhone can and more. At that price point there's no excuse for less.
Title: Re: "Holy cow. Time to throw my 7D in the bin."
Post by: htjunkie on October 17, 2011, 04:41:20 PM
Wow. That is quite amazing from a phone. Makes me hopeful for the future.
Title: Re: "Holy cow. Time to throw my 7D in the bin."
Post by: neuroanatomist on October 17, 2011, 04:58:19 PM
"Siri-MarkIV, set aperture to 2.8, set shutter speed to 1/1000, set ISO to 800, take picture...NOW.  Tag with location and keywords Serengeti, cheetah, and gazelle, upload to NatGeo.com, and transfer royalties to BofA account."

Great possibilities, can't wait...  ;D
Title: Re: "Holy cow. Time to throw my 7D in the bin."
Post by: bwhitz on October 17, 2011, 05:03:50 PM
Yea, this is kind of a dumb statement. I don't think he realizes why people use 7D/5D's for video. It's not that the "quality" is that outstanding... it's because it allows you access to the coveted 35mm cinema look. The iphone video could even be 4k, but it doesn't matter if it's still got that tiny chip on it. Tiny chips will always have that flat small-sensor look.
Title: Re: "Holy cow. Time to throw my 7D in the bin."
Post by: bvukich on October 17, 2011, 05:04:39 PM
Ok. It was good for a phone, but not good in it's own right.  I'm not sure why he's so impressed with the colors, it looks washed out to me, lacking in contrast and saturation.

If his 7D puts out worse footage than this he seriously needs to take it in for service, because it must be broken.
Title: Re: "Holy cow. Time to throw my 7D in the bin."
Post by: seakuders on October 17, 2011, 05:26:49 PM
quick question - i read that the aperture on the iphone camera lens is f/2.4... is that variable at all, or is it ALWAYS 2.4?

do phones have variable aperture?
Title: Re: "Holy cow. Time to throw my 7D in the bin."
Post by: wellfedCanuck on October 17, 2011, 05:36:44 PM
I think that some of you have missed the point- that this is a phone- that has climbed an impressive way up the food chain and is now poised to start eating the "serious" camera manufacturers lunch, granted at the present time at the bottom to mid range of the market.

And, two of you "smite" me for pointing out the obvious? Really...?

Geez. Tough crowd.  ???
Title: Re: "Holy cow. Time to throw my 7D in the bin."
Post by: Kamera Obscura on October 17, 2011, 05:45:42 PM
I am sorry. That just a phone and This is a Canon 7D camera. Two totally different products.

Looking at the footage, it didn't impress at all. Well not bad for phone, but not even remotely close to 7D.

Sorry,
dario.
Title: Re: "Holy cow. Time to throw my 7D in the bin."
Post by: dr croubie on October 17, 2011, 07:01:39 PM
Can I mount a Tokina 11-16 or an EF 1200mm to my iToy?
no.
pass.

It may be impressive compared to other phones, even to some P&Ses, but it's not impressive in absolute terms.

*owner of a phone that is actually a phone, and a camera that is actually a camera*
Title: Re: "Holy cow. Time to throw my 7D in the bin."
Post by: rocketdesigner on October 17, 2011, 07:09:41 PM
I think that some of you have missed the point- that this is a phone- that has climbed an impressive way up the food chain and is now poised to start eating the "serious" camera manufacturers lunch, granted at the present time at the bottom to mid range of the market.

And, two of you "smite" me for pointing out the obvious? Really...?

Geez. Tough crowd.  ???

Dont take it personally ... some are quick to smite based on philosophical differences alone.

But, it is a fairly absurd claim - taken in the literal context - that the iphone will replace a pro video camera.

That said, I don't think any can really argue with your basic, overall premise .... re: the improvement of phone camera technology.
Title: Re: "Holy cow. Time to throw my 7D in the bin."
Post by: wellfedCanuck on October 17, 2011, 07:10:32 PM
What I was trying to say was that the "just a phone" has managed to do many things very well. Someone has found a way to engineer an impressive piece of technology at a very low price. If the producer of a sub-$200 (okay, $600 if bought outside of contract) phone can shoehorn HD video, GPS, WIFI and many, many other features into the device- then why shouldn't we expect much, much more out of a 5D3?

Yes, the DSLR takes superior photos and shoots better video than the iPhone. For now. And, at an astronomically higher price. Yeah, I know that we're all fanboys here, wanting only the elitist product. But how many of those old guys on the cruise ship I mentioned will stop buying Canon if Canon rests on its laurels, pooh-poohing non-core features and upgrading its products only every 3 or 4 years? And, if those old guys stop buying- how will that affect the unit-cost for Canon and the end price for the rest of us? Recognizing an obviously forthcoming erosion in the point-and-shoot market, how does that even affect the over-all viability of Canon Inc? Canon could be the next Nortel for all any of us know.

BTW, thanks Neuroanatomist for getting it.
Title: Re: "Holy cow. Time to throw my 7D in the bin."
Post by: djw on October 17, 2011, 07:32:49 PM
wellfedCanuck, I am right with you! A camera is an optical AND electronic device. If you can fit in an electronic level there's plenty of room for GPS, WiFi, Bluetooth, .... Why can't I use a wireless display (pc, phone or dedicated panel)?.

I think you are 100%--if a good feature can be in a P&S it should be in a dSLR. There's very little additional R&D. In fact, dSLR sales have already contributed to P&S R&D so why can't dSLRs benefit from these developments?
Title: Re: "Holy cow. Time to throw my 7D in the bin."
Post by: neuroanatomist on October 17, 2011, 08:07:01 PM
I think Canon 'gets it', too.  The new S100 (sidebar: reportedly Best Buy has some stock, and I'm still waiting on my pre-order from Amazon...) shoots HD video, has built-in GPS.  If they can fit GPS into that compact of a camera, they can find room in the larger case of a dSLR - I fully expect it to be in forthcoming bodies.  Canon, are you listening?   ::)
Title: Re: "Holy cow. Time to throw my 7D in the bin."
Post by: DJL329 on October 17, 2011, 09:10:34 PM
The original 5D didn't have "live" view (that's why I didn't buy it).  Does the 5D2 have a better focusing system that the original?  Nope.  Do you want GPS or Wifi on your 1D/1Ds Series or 5D2?  Well then you need to buy an adapter.  OTOH, did the original iPods have built-in FM tuners?  No, you had to buy an add-on.  Is there a built-in Optical drive on the MacBook Air?  Nope.  Does the iPad have a built-in USB port or SD-card slot?  No, you need an adapter or, in the case of USB, you can use the included proprietary cable.  So please don't tell me that Apple devices include *every* feature or does things the best way possible for their consumers.  They, like Canon, do what's best for their bottom line.

Both companies know that by leaving out certain features, they can get us to buy add-ons and/or a newer version down the road.  And they know we'll keep coming back, because we've been doing it for years or decades.  Only until we stop buying, will they be forced to change.  Of course, if they ever built the "perfect" device, we'd never have to buy another one and then they would go out of business.  So that's why we get incremental, instead of monumental, changes.  Does that mean we have to buy each new version?  No (I certainly didn't).  We will still complain about it?  You betcha!  :D
Title: Re: "Holy cow. Time to throw my 7D in the bin."
Post by: Kamera Obscura on October 17, 2011, 09:20:36 PM
We all get it. I guess I don't get the header. Just because I phone can shoot a mediocre video, you want to trow your 7D in the Bin.

I took that literally, Silly me!!

Fellow Canuck,
dario.

Title: Re: "Holy cow. Time to throw my 7D in the bin."
Post by: Jedifarce on October 18, 2011, 05:39:05 AM
I think that some of you have missed the point- that this is a phone- that has climbed an impressive way up the food chain and is now poised to start eating the "serious" camera manufacturers lunch, granted at the present time at the bottom to mid range of the market.

And, two of you "smite" me for pointing out the obvious? Really...?

Geez. Tough crowd.  ???

Hmmm, no doubt Benjamin Dowie accomplished what he set out to do, generate some interest in his video by using a cheap marketing ploy. "Really, the Iphone is just as good as a DSLR?"

 The only people that would believe this are all the apple drones Steve Jobs created before he died, and folks that really have no interest in serious film making whatsoever.

 To be honest, the Dof is not bad for a video phone, but you can see the flaws of not having a manual setting for exposure. There's constant light shifts in the videos exposures as though the ISO on a DSLR were set to Auto. Also I'm not sure I'd want to see another Iphone video like this again with all the bouncing around of the video.

 The most amusing part of this subject has to be when I searched google for information on the new Iphone, the search engine kept coming back with several links on, 'iPhone 4S vs 5DMarkII.' There's some pretty stupid people out there.
Title: Re: "Holy cow. Time to throw my 7D in the bin."
Post by: Jedifarce on October 18, 2011, 06:42:49 AM
What I was trying to say was that the "just a phone" has managed to do many things very well. Someone has found a way to engineer an impressive piece of technology at a very low price. If the producer of a sub-$200 (okay, $600 if bought outside of contract) phone can shoehorn HD video, GPS, WIFI and many, many other features into the device- then why shouldn't we expect much, much more out of a 5D3?

No, we shouldn't. People that actually use their DSLR's know why we bought them and what we intend to use them for. Comparing an Iphone to a DSLR is like comparing a swiss army knife to a machete.

Quote
Yes, the DSLR takes superior photos and shoots better video than the iPhone. For now.

Making a statement like this only proves you really have no idea what you're talking about. I'm willing to bet you don't even own a DSLR or if you do aren't sure how to use it. Let us know when an Iphone is able to mount a Carl Zeiss CP .2 prime lens to the front of it, only then I'll believe an Iphone or any other smart phone device is capable of rivaling a DSLR.

 Until that day let me share with you why it will never happen. Besides the obvious mechanical reasons that seems to elude you, camera technology will always evolve, improve and never stays stagnant. The DSLR sensors will always be bigger than that of a puny camera phone. DSLR lenses will take better images for those larger sensors, and the mere fact you have a device fully dedicated to capturing photo and video imagery pretty much says it all.

Quite simply, the Iphone will always be a million steps behind the capabilities of a DSLR regardless of your fervent belief to the contrary. More likely, the future DSLR will have the capabilities of an Iphone and not the other way around.
Title: Re: "Holy cow. Time to throw my 7D in the bin."
Post by: wellfedCanuck on October 18, 2011, 06:49:02 AM
I think that some of you have missed the point- that this is a phone- that has climbed an impressive way up the food chain and is now poised to start eating the "serious" camera manufacturers lunch, granted at the present time at the bottom to mid range of the market.

And, two of you "smite" me for pointing out the obvious? Really...?

Geez. Tough crowd.  ???

Hmmm, no doubt Benjamin Dowie accomplished what he set out to do, generate some interest in his video by using a cheap marketing ploy. "Really, the Iphone is just as good as a DSLR?"

 The only people that would believe this are all the apple drones Steve Jobs created before he died, and folks that really have no interest in serious film making whatsoever.

 To be honest, the Dof is not bad for a video phone, but you can see the flaws of not having a manual setting for exposure. There's constant light shifts in the videos exposures as though the ISO on a DSLR were set to Auto. Also I'm not sure I'd want to see another Iphone video like this again with all the bouncing around of the video.

 The most amusing part of this subject has to be when I searched google for information on the new Iphone, the search engine kept coming back with several links on, 'iPhone 4S vs 5DMarkII.' There's some pretty stupid people out there.

I guess I'm not writing clearly enough. This was never a direct comparison of the abilities of either device, I even stated in my original post that I believed that the producer of the video was being facetious when choosing his title.

This was about bang for the buck, about adding features that people want- even if they defy tradition. This was about trends and vision- the pace of advancing technology in two different sectors of the electronics industry.

There was a secondary point about losing the mass-market. Both Canon and you (and me) need those "pretty stupid people" to keep buying Canon DSLRs to keep the prices down.

Some of it is now a moot point with the new camera adding LAN, WIFI, and (shudder) off-camera GPS. Yes, Jedifarce, I own a Canon DSLR. Do I know what I'm talking about? That'll be for someone to judge 5 or 10 years from now. Do you know what you're talking about? History is littered with people who were sure that technology would advance in a certain direction...

Anyway, we've thrashed this subject to death. How about those Blue Jays...?
Title: Re: "Holy cow. Time to throw my 7D in the bin."
Post by: neuroanatomist on October 18, 2011, 09:09:19 PM
Anyway, we've thrashed this subject to death. How about those Blue Jays...?

Well then, ok...I caught a nice capture of a blue jay sitting on a tombstone the other day. A metaphor? Back on topic (well, ok, not really, but I agree we're pretty much done here) ...I took the pic with my 7D + 100-400mm, and I have no intention of chucking my 7D in the bin.  ::)
Title: Re: "Holy cow. Time to throw my 7D in the bin."
Post by: wellfedCanuck on October 19, 2011, 05:42:02 AM
Anyway, we've thrashed this subject to death. How about those Blue Jays...?

Well then, ok...I caught a nice capture of a blue jay sitting on a tombstone the other day. A metaphor? Back on topic (well, ok, not really, but I agree we're pretty much done here) ...I took the pic with my 7D + 100-400mm, and I have no intention of chucking my 7D in the bin.  ::)

Well, I actually wish I had a 7D (I only linked to the video, I didn't make it), 'cause then I could take some photos of those blue jays making nests out of all those old frayed red sox in preparation for next year...  :P
Title: Re: "Holy cow. Time to throw my 7D in the bin."
Post by: samthefish on October 19, 2011, 06:39:15 AM
Anyway, we've thrashed this subject to death. How about those Blue Jays...?

Well then, ok...I caught a nice capture of a blue jay sitting on a tombstone the other day. A metaphor? Back on topic (well, ok, not really, but I agree we're pretty much done here) ...I took the pic with my 7D + 100-400mm, and I have no intention of chucking my 7D in the bin.  ::)

Well, I actually wish I had a 7D (I only linked to the video, I didn't make it), 'cause then I could take some photos of those blue jays making nests out of all those old frayed red sox in preparation for next year...  :P

Now that's hitting close to home!  Leave the carcass of the Red Sox alone! 

Of course speaking of sports in Boston, there is the Stanley Cup...
Title: Re: "Holy cow. Time to throw my 7D in the bin."
Post by: Zuuyi on October 19, 2011, 06:40:25 AM
The iPhone & other camera phones are not causing any harm in the DSLR market.  But the problem for Canon & Nikon are the P&S cameras.  I used to carry around a P&S and a Nokia Candy Bar Phone in 2001.

Now all I have are DSLRs & Camera Phones.  The smart phones/tablets have removed the need for mobile music devices, mobile gaming devices, mobile computing devices and PS cameras.  No they don't do any of the jobs as good as a dedicated devices but carrying around one device instead of 4 sounds rather good to me.  I don't see any DiscMan, Gameboys, PDAs, or candy bar phones anymore; do you?

A camera phone will never be as good as a the DSLR of the same period. I will be more than willingly trade anyone an iPhone 4s for a 7d.
Title: Re: "Holy cow. Time to throw my 7D in the bin."
Post by: CJRodgers on October 19, 2011, 10:08:09 AM
Hey! I just exactly what your saying that we should expect more. I dont know anything on the technical side of things really, but ive read in the forumns here that the yeild of an FF sensor is fairly low, and therefore FF sensors are very expensive. So just adding the sensor would probably triple or quadruple the price. Then there is the casing. A propler alloy casing or waterproof is a lot tougher than the iphone which smashes when u drop it. So housing probably adds a bit more. Then there is volume. I phones sell millions and millions, so much more than an expensive camera ever will. Economies of scale are going to come into play. If every other person had a 5dmkii, like what it seems every other person has an iphone, a 5dmkii would be alot cheaper than it is. So i exactly what your saying, but with a lot of technologies paying 10X more doesnt mean 10X better.

Like CPUs, an extra £150 at the high end will buy you a CPU only 20% faster.
Title: Re: "Holy cow. Time to throw my 7D in the bin."
Post by: JonJT on October 19, 2011, 10:31:58 AM
The iphone, and subsequent phones, have/will bring decent film making and photo taking capabilities to average people.  These people, likely, can't afford or were not interested in spending thousands on a DSLR or a pro video camera in the first place.  Surely, some will switch one way or another but, these devices target different markets and, there is almost no overlap.

In any case, the main value of a DSLR is in the lenses first, and the body second.  I can't use my glass with this phone, nor can I take advantage of all the in-body features that makes a DSLR a far superior photo tool.  Must people just don't care about this, though.  They post blury, noisy poorly focused pictures to their facebooks and are rather satisfied with them because the content of their photography is more important than all of the technical bits that makes great photography great.


Just a thought:
Considering the high price of DSLR cameras, why don't manufacturers offer cameras with options, in much the same way car companies offer cars with packages and extras?  Perhaps, a company would design a model around the sensor, metering and AF capabilities alone.  Customers would add tertiary features such as GPS, Wifi, weather sealing, etc after the fact to build exactly what they need.  This way, those of us who want or need these features can have them, at extra cost, while those of us who do not, can leave them out.
Title: Re: "Holy cow. Time to throw my 7D in the bin."
Post by: rocketdesigner on October 19, 2011, 10:36:18 AM


Just a thought:
Considering the high price of DSLR cameras, why don't manufacturers offer cameras with options, in much the same way car companies offer cars with packages and extras? 

Why? Because that makes too much sense... :P
Title: Re: "Holy cow. Time to throw my 7D in the bin."
Post by: student on October 19, 2011, 11:00:06 AM
Some should read till the end.
Quote
*I'm not actually throwing my 7D out.
  ;)

But for a phone it is indeed impressive. These kind of device class will hurt the dslr segment. The main reason is the software. The dslr software is still very basic compared to what is possible in smartphones.
Title: Re: "Holy cow. Time to throw my 7D in the bin."
Post by: EYEONE on October 19, 2011, 11:11:37 AM
Can I mount a Tokina 11-16 or an EF 1200mm to my iToy?
no.
pass.

It may be impressive compared to other phones, even to some P&Ses, but it's not impressive in absolute terms.

*owner of a phone that is actually a phone, and a camera that is actually a camera*

Actually, yes!  :P
http://photojojo.com/store/awesomeness/iphone-slr-mount/
Title: Re: "Holy cow. Time to throw my 7D in the bin."
Post by: Orion on October 19, 2011, 11:16:30 AM
people are just starting to get the full scope of what marketing means for these high end devices . . . and that is why we speak about "if Apple can get wifi into their phone, then. . . ." scenarios.

It is totally true, though! If Canon can make the world's largest CMOS sensor with unheard of light sensitivity, then it is easier to undersant why they didn't put wifi into the new DSLR, and instead did a whole production line for an adaptor ;)
Title: Re: "Holy cow. Time to throw my 7D in the bin."
Post by: JonJT on October 19, 2011, 11:28:08 AM
Can I mount a Tokina 11-16 or an EF 1200mm to my iToy?
no.
pass.

It may be impressive compared to other phones, even to some P&Ses, but it's not impressive in absolute terms.

*owner of a phone that is actually a phone, and a camera that is actually a camera*

Actually, yes!  :P
http://photojojo.com/store/awesomeness/iphone-slr-mount/

Yes but, your image is still a product of the inferior glass in the iphone.  You don't have any aperture adjustment and focusing is a wretched exercise.  IMO, that adapter is a novelty.  It's not replacement for even the most basic DSLR body.
Title: Re: "Holy cow. Time to throw my 7D in the bin."
Post by: EYEONE on October 19, 2011, 12:24:14 PM
Can I mount a Tokina 11-16 or an EF 1200mm to my iToy?
no.
pass.

It may be impressive compared to other phones, even to some P&Ses, but it's not impressive in absolute terms.

*owner of a phone that is actually a phone, and a camera that is actually a camera*

Actually, yes!  :P
http://photojojo.com/store/awesomeness/iphone-slr-mount/

Yes but, your image is still a product of the inferior glass in the iphone.  You don't have any aperture adjustment and focusing is a wretched exercise.  IMO, that adapter is a novelty.  It's not replacement for even the most basic DSLR body.

I didn't say that it was. I was correcting his point that's all.
Title: Re: "Holy cow. Time to throw my 7D in the bin."
Post by: Weggy on October 19, 2011, 01:58:44 PM
Whilst the video is undoubtedly impressive given that its from a phone, does anyone else find the style quite distrubing? A little too "first person pervert" style for me, peering over the wall, through the flowers etc.  ;)

Not trying to criticse because its way beyond anything I could make. Just saying as this thread got quite heavy!  :P