canon rumors FORUM

Rumors => Lenses => Topic started by: Canon Rumors on February 05, 2014, 01:29:00 PM

Title: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
Post by: Canon Rumors on February 05, 2014, 01:29:00 PM

We’ve been told again that Canon will unveil a zoom macro lens in the 200mm range some time in 2014. The lens is currently in prototype form. It’s apparently a constant aperture zoom macro, though we can’t confirm that it is a 1:1 macro lens. Although, it was mentioned that lens would be 2:1, and could be “locked out” to 1:1 at the long end.


We weren’t told how fast the lens would be, but I’d expect f/3.5 or f/4 and it would also have the latest and greatest IS.


cr


Title: Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
Post by: Ellen Schmidtee on February 05, 2014, 01:55:27 PM
Macro *zoom* sounds a bit surprising, but a 180mm macro replacement sounds plausible.

It's almost 20 years old, and the Sigma 180mm macro is almost a stop faster + has IS, though it's IQ isn't as good as the Canon's (http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?action=post;topic=19418.0;last_msg=364889).

My (naïve?) expectation is for a 180mm w/ the 100mm's HIS, and that a macro zoom that ends at ~200mm would compete with one of the 70-200mm models, but maybe Canon is going for something to compliment the 24-70mm f/4
Title: Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
Post by: NancyP on February 05, 2014, 02:03:31 PM
The target audience of serious macro shooters, particularly insect photographers, likely cares less about zoom than about getting 1:1 magnification at a fixed 180, 200mm, or even longer. Good IS would have to be a must, because the existing 180mm f/3.5L without IS is a fine lens already.
Title: Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
Post by: tianxiaozhang on February 05, 2014, 02:06:33 PM
My (naïve?) expectation is for a 180mm w/ the 100mm's HIS, and that a macro zoom that ends at ~200mm would compete with one of the 70-200mm models, but maybe Canon is going for something to compliment the 24-70mm f/4

Nikon has a zoom macro I think...

Too big a zoom range might sacrifice one of quality, price or weight.
Title: Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
Post by: neuroanatomist on February 05, 2014, 02:29:25 PM
Nikon has a zoom macro I think...

The Canon MP-E 65mm f/2.8 1-5x Macro is a zoom macro…well, sort of…  :P
Title: Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
Post by: Ellen Schmidtee on February 05, 2014, 02:32:56 PM
My (naïve?) expectation is for a 180mm w/ the 100mm's HIS, and that a macro zoom that ends at ~200mm would compete with one of the 70-200mm models, but maybe Canon is going for something to compliment the 24-70mm f/4

Nikon has a zoom macro I think...

Too big a zoom range might sacrifice one of quality, price or weight.

A 70-180mm f/4.5-5.6, which has been discontinued, and takes the "world's first" bragging rights from Canon.

I don't think Canon can release such a zoom lens w/o IS, which would make profit issues worse, as Canon has two new stabilized 70-200mm lenses (f/4 from 2006, f/2.8 from 2010) which magnify ~1:5 w/o extension tubes to compete with it.

Maybe I'm missing something.
Title: Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
Post by: mrsfotografie on February 05, 2014, 02:39:42 PM
Ah, something like this, only with less range  ;D

http://www.photozone.de/canon-eos/326-sigma-af-70-300mm-f4-56-apo-dg-macro-test-report--review (http://www.photozone.de/canon-eos/326-sigma-af-70-300mm-f4-56-apo-dg-macro-test-report--review)
Title: Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
Post by: neuroanatomist on February 05, 2014, 02:43:50 PM
Ah, something like this, only with less range  ;D

http://www.photozone.de/canon-eos/326-sigma-af-70-300mm-f4-56-apo-dg-macro-test-report--review (http://www.photozone.de/canon-eos/326-sigma-af-70-300mm-f4-56-apo-dg-macro-test-report--review)

Maybe...  But Canon would use a floating focusing group for much better IQ at macro distances, add Hybrid IS, and charge a helluva lot more for the lens.   :P
Title: Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
Post by: ajfotofilmagem on February 05, 2014, 02:48:04 PM
I would love a 200mm F5.6 Macro Hybrid Image Stabilizer, costing $ 700. :o After all, in macro using F11 or more closed most of the time. ::) Dreaming does not cost anything. :-*
Title: Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
Post by: mackguyver on February 05, 2014, 03:37:40 PM
I LOVE my 180mm macro - sharp and by far the best color of any lens I own, but I would love to see a f/2.8 version (for better viewfinder manual focus and extender AF [maybe I'm dreaming on that one]).  I'd also like it with more aperture blades (bokeh gets a bit geometric when stopped down).  Lighter weight would be nice, too, but not critical.  IS would be at the bottom of my list primarily because the only time I use my 180mm handheld is to chase little critters and I'm usually shooting f/11 at 1/1000s of better to stop the subject motion, and 98% of my macro shooting takes place on a tripod.   
Title: Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
Post by: photonius on February 05, 2014, 04:39:41 PM
a say, 135 (150) - 200mm (or 180mm) macro with 1:1 at 200mm and IS does not sound implausible. zooming out while keeping the same distance would allow for easier framing, would allow better flexibility getting the shot.
Title: Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
Post by: danski0224 on February 05, 2014, 05:17:41 PM
120mm TS-E macro  ;D
Title: Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
Post by: dadgummit on February 05, 2014, 06:00:36 PM
120mm TS-E macro  ;D

That would be a very cool lens that I could not afford.  It would probably cost $2500-3000. 
Title: Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
Post by: dadgummit on February 05, 2014, 06:06:43 PM
a say, 135 (150) - 200mm (or 180mm) macro with 1:1 at 200mm and IS does not sound implausible. zooming out while keeping the same distance would allow for easier framing, would allow better flexibility getting the shot.

I don't see a 150-200 range to be enough to make it worthwile to bother with the complication of a zoom lens over a prime. 

I was thinking a 100-200mm f3.5L IS USM with inner zooming (does not extend) that costs about $1500 street and 1800-2000 MSRP at launch.    1:2 at 100 zooming to 1:1 at 200.  I do like the idea of no focus breathing (hope I am using the term correctly)

Personally I would prefer a 50-150 f2.8 IS USM this would be a much more useful range for all of my Macro purposes.
Title: Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
Post by: neuroanatomist on February 05, 2014, 07:19:40 PM
120mm TS-E macro  ;D

That would be a very cool lens that I could not afford.  It would probably cost $2500-3000.

It would be expensive and it would sound like a very cool lens...but it would be mostly a marketing gimmick. You'd think tilt would let you achieve an apparently deeper DoF for macro shooting, right?  Well...it would, but the amount of tilt required increases with magnification.  I think you'd need 30° of tilt or more, meaning a truly massive image circle would be needed, and even then the optical quality would suffer with such extreme tilt.
Title: Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
Post by: Sabaki on February 06, 2014, 05:27:46 AM
Has to be pretty special in order for me to sell my EF 100mm f/2.8 L IS for it
Title: Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
Post by: Rudeofus on February 06, 2014, 05:42:01 AM
I do like the idea of no focus breathing (hope I am using the term correctly)

There are two ways to focus a lens:


All internally focusing lenses do this by shortening their focal length. If you go all the way to 1:1 macro, your focal length would be cut in half. This means your beautiful 200mm macro lens with internal focusing would turn into an 100mm macro lens at 1:1 magnification. Pretty pointless, isn't it?
Title: Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
Post by: danski0224 on February 06, 2014, 07:02:15 AM
It would be expensive and it would sound like a very cool lens...but it would be mostly a marketing gimmick. You'd think tilt would let you achieve an apparently deeper DoF for macro shooting, right?  Well...it would, but the amount of tilt required increases with magnification.  I think you'd need 30° of tilt or more, meaning a truly massive image circle would be needed, and even then the optical quality would suffer with such extreme tilt.

Killjoy  :'(  ;)
Title: Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
Post by: Rudeofus on February 06, 2014, 10:04:53 AM
120mm TS-E macro  ;D

That would be a very cool lens that I could not afford.  It would probably cost $2500-3000.

It would be expensive and it would sound like a very cool lens...but it would be mostly a marketing gimmick. You'd think tilt would let you achieve an apparently deeper DoF for macro shooting, right?  Well...it would, but the amount of tilt required increases with magnification.  I think you'd need 30° of tilt or more, meaning a truly massive image circle would be needed, and even then the optical quality would suffer with such extreme tilt.

First: Mamiya makes an excellent 140mm macro that covers the image area of a 6x7cm system. Using its rather simple optical formula for making a 140mm T&S lens for 35mm cameras should be quite doable.

Second: as you approach higher magnifications, the image circle of a lens automatically becomes larger. And it's the higher magnifications where I really miss T&S ...

The reason why I don't think that Canon would make a T&S macro is because it is unwieldy for portrait and for hand held shooting and would therefore attract only a tiny niche market.
Title: Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
Post by: Ellen Schmidtee on February 06, 2014, 12:13:47 PM
First: Mamiya makes an excellent 140mm macro that covers the image area of a 6x7cm system. Using its rather simple optical formula for making a 140mm T&S lens for 35mm cameras should be quite doable.

Wouldn't that formula be protected by a patent? It would eat out of the profits, if Mamiya agrees to license it at all.

The reason why I don't think that Canon would make a T&S macro is because it is unwieldy for portrait and for hand held shooting and would therefore attract only a tiny niche market.

I'm not sure why would people want to use such a lens for portraits, but it would still be useful on a tripod in studio for that purpose.
Title: Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
Post by: Rudeofus on February 06, 2014, 01:12:27 PM
Wouldn't that formula be protected by a patent? It would eat out of the profits, if Mamiya agrees to license it at all.
There are many ways to skin a cat. I know a number of camera makers which have 18-55mm lenses in their lineup without stepping on each other's patent.
I'm not sure why would people want to use such a lens for portraits, but it would still be useful on a tripod in studio for that purpose.
Canon has a 90mm T&S lens in their lineup, and it's well known that this lens is not exactly the most popular lens.
Title: Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
Post by: StudentOfLight on February 08, 2014, 03:22:10 PM
Both of the current 200mm f/2.8 and 180mm f/3.5 L macro takes 72mm front filters. So I believe there is potential for increasing the front-element size and increasing the aperture to get 200mm f/2.8 macro with good optical performance wide open.

For me though a potential 90mm TS-E update is more intriguing.
Title: Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
Post by: Rudeofus on February 10, 2014, 05:00:00 PM
Both of the current 200mm f/2.8 and 180mm f/3.5 L macro takes 72mm front filters. So I believe there is potential for increasing the front-element size and increasing the aperture to get 200mm f/2.8 macro with good optical performance wide open.

Canon's macro flash accessories (MR-14EX, MT-24EX) are made for 72mm or smaller filter thread ...
Title: Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
Post by: StudentOfLight on February 13, 2014, 10:17:07 AM
Both of the current 200mm f/2.8 and 180mm f/3.5 L macro takes 72mm front filters. So I believe there is potential for increasing the front-element size and increasing the aperture to get 200mm f/2.8 macro with good optical performance wide open.

Canon's macro flash accessories (MR-14EX, MT-24EX) are made for 72mm or smaller filter thread ...

... so if Canon upped the filter size on a new macro lens then they'd have a reason to sell a new macro Flash.
Title: Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
Post by: StudentOfLight on February 13, 2014, 10:46:32 AM
I'm not sure why would people want to use such a lens for portraits, but it would still be useful on a tripod in studio for that purpose.

There are some wedding photographers that use TS creatively for people shots, although some people say that this is now a bit cliche. For me I think the only opinion that really matters is that of the client. If they want it and like it then great.

Obviously, as you've said TS DoF manipulation is extremely useful for product photography. It's a huge time saver compared to focus-stacking, especially when you have lots of samples to set up and shoot.
Title: Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
Post by: neuroanatomist on February 13, 2014, 10:51:27 AM
Both of the current 200mm f/2.8 and 180mm f/3.5 L macro takes 72mm front filters. So I believe there is potential for increasing the front-element size and increasing the aperture to get 200mm f/2.8 macro with good optical performance wide open.
Canon's macro flash accessories (MR-14EX, MT-24EX) are made for 72mm or smaller filter thread ...

Yes, but have you looked at the front of those macro lenses?  The front elements are all substantially smaller than the filter ring, which is why you can step the 72mm filter down to a 58mm ring and not get vignetting.  Using an MT-24EX on a 70-200/2.8 (77mm filter thread and a front element that goes almost to the filter thread) via a step-down ring results in only a very slight increase in optical vignetting with the lens at f/2.8, and no noticeable effect with the lens stopped down. 

Canon could simply bring out a Macrolite 77C adapter and call it a day.
Title: Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
Post by: Chaitanya on February 13, 2014, 11:41:04 AM
Mostly in field working with live insects I have never cross 2x mag ratio. So if Canon really releases a new zoom macro capable of going all the way upto 2x then for most macro shooters that would be the only lens to carry in field. Also I don't think it will be a cheap lens and will cost around 2500$ atleast.
Title: Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
Post by: mb66energy on February 13, 2014, 11:46:57 AM

It would be expensive and it would sound like a very cool lens...but it would be mostly a marketing gimmick. You'd think tilt would let you achieve an apparently deeper DoF for macro shooting, right?  Well...it would, but the amount of tilt required increases with magnification.  I think you'd need 30° of tilt or more, meaning a truly massive image circle would be needed, and even then the optical quality would suffer with such extreme tilt.

I don't think so because the lens is usually tilted around an axis which lies in the image plane. Actually the projection of the image plane at 30° tilt is smaller than the image plane at zero tilt.
Title: Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
Post by: mb66energy on February 13, 2014, 12:04:46 PM

All internally focusing lenses do this by shortening their focal length. If you go all the way to 1:1 macro, your focal length would be cut in half. This means your beautiful 200mm macro lens with internal focusing would turn into an 100mm macro lens at 1:1 magnification. Pretty pointless, isn't it?

The distance between image plane and object is 4 times the focal length at 1:1 or otherwise: the focus distance at 1:1 will give you the focal length if you divide it by four:

EF-S 60    MFD 200mm        Calculated Focal length at 1:1   50mm
EF 100     MFD 300mm        Calculated Focal length at 1:1   75mm
EF 180     MFD 480mm        Calculated Focal length at 1:1   120mm

Ok, it is not a true "single lens" but there is a good chance that you do not loose 50 % of the initial
focal length.
Modern lenses bend the light by crazy ways so there is a chance that you simulate lens positions to get
1:1 without loosing any focal length. Think about EF-S10-22 at 10mm which leaves 35mm space between back lens and image plane!
Title: Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
Post by: Rudeofus on February 13, 2014, 06:35:17 PM
Ok, it is not a true "single lens" but there is a good chance that you do not loose 50 % of the initial
focal length.

All the macro lenses you just listed do not use internal focusing, so your point is moot. I did not argue against macro lenses in general, only against macro lenses with internal focusing.

Modern lenses bend the light by crazy ways so there is a chance that you simulate lens positions to get
1:1 without loosing any focal length. Think about EF-S10-22 at 10mm which leaves 35mm space between back lens and image plane!

These lenses do all kinds of crazy stuff, but when it comes to focusing they are still as they always were: internally focusing lenses which forfeit focal length at MFD for elegance, and lenses that maintain their focal length but become longer as you focus closely.
Title: Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
Post by: mb66energy on February 14, 2014, 12:58:51 AM
Ok, it is not a true "single lens" but there is a good chance that you do not loose 50 % of the initial
focal length.

All the macro lenses you just listed do not use internal focusing, so your point is moot. I did not argue against macro lenses in general, only against macro lenses with internal focusing.

Modern lenses bend the light by crazy ways so there is a chance that you simulate lens positions to get
1:1 without loosing any focal length. Think about EF-S10-22 at 10mm which leaves 35mm space between back lens and image plane!

These lenses do all kinds of crazy stuff, but when it comes to focusing they are still as they always were: internally focusing lenses which forfeit focal length at MFD for elegance, and lenses that maintain their focal length but become longer as you focus closely.

I own the 60mm and the 100 mm USM Macro-both do NOT extend and use (including the 180mm Macro) after Canon's USA home page a
 "Focus Adjustment:    Inner focusing system with USM"
 - so I do not understand your arguments - or is there a difference between "inner focusing system"  and "internal focusing"?
Title: Re: Another Mention of a New Macro Lens in 2014 [CR1]
Post by: Rudeofus on February 15, 2014, 06:53:47 PM
I own the 60mm and the 100 mm USM Macro-both do NOT extend and use (including the 180mm Macro) after Canon's USA home page a
 "Focus Adjustment:    Inner focusing system with USM"
 - so I do not understand your arguments - or is there a difference between "inner focusing system"  and "internal focusing"?

I stand corrected, these lenses do indeed use internal focusing and lose a fair amount of focal length at minimum focus distance. The 100L goes down to 75mm (http://www.photozone.de/canon_eos_ff/458-canon_100_28is_5d). I'm not sure people would want this for longer focal length macro lenses, though. There's already enough bitching and moaning about Sigma's 120-300 and its loss of focal length at MFD.