canon rumors FORUM

Rumors => EOS Bodies => Topic started by: Canon Rumors on February 28, 2014, 08:50:13 AM

Title: UPDATE: EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
Post by: Canon Rumors on February 28, 2014, 08:50:13 AM

*UPDATE*

Imaging Resource received information from Canon USA after the story went to press stating the following:


“We received an update after we went to press that Canon USA does not have plans to sell the EOS M2 at this time. We’ll let you guys know if this changes!”


Original Story

Imaging Resource did an interview with Canon executive Mr. Go Tokura and they touched on the EOS M2 and its availability worldwide.


When asked if the EOS M2 would come to the USA, Mr Tokura stated “There are plans for the M2 to arrive in the U.S.”. We’re assuming this also means there are plans to bring it to Europe.


Canon also plans to release more lenses for the EOS M system, as Mr Tokura says “I can assure you that we do have plans to roll out some lenses in the future. As far as speaking concretely about a roadmap, I’m afraid that based on our company policy, we can’t make any concrete statements about that.”


We’d be told previously that the original EOS M’s very high stock levels at North American and European retailers played a big roll in the M2 not coming to these markets. Once those stocks are depleted, I imagine we’ll see the arrival of the M2, or possibly an M3.


Read the full interview


cr


Title: Re: EOS M2 Coming to North America & Europe?
Post by: neuroanatomist on February 28, 2014, 08:51:44 AM
M3 with DPAF.  Sold.  :)
Title: Re: EOS M2 Coming to North America & Europe?
Post by: slclick on February 28, 2014, 09:00:48 AM
M3 with DPAF.  Sold.  :)

Boy if they were to make that AND a 7D2, I'd be in a real quandary about a backup camera
Title: Re: EOS M2 Coming to North America & Europe?
Post by: Zv on February 28, 2014, 10:22:22 AM
Read the interview and also the link to the technical AF question, answered by Chuck Westfall. This blew my mind a bit. Thought I'd share it.

"On the other hand, because AF precision is proportional to maximum aperture with Dual Pixel CMOS AF, it scales itself automatically and dynamically according to the supported EF or EF-S lens in use. For example, Dual Pixel CMOS AF achieves a longer baseline for AF precision with an f/4 lens compared to an f/5.6 lens, and so on all the way down the line to f/1.0. At the other end of the scale, Dual Pixel CMOS AF supports autofocusing with maximum apertures as small as f/11, a full two stops smaller than is possible with the 70D's TTL-SIR-AF system. And because the AF data is measured directly from the imaging sensor, there is no need for AF Microadjustment."

I kinda want to try a 70D out for the day.
Title: Re: EOS M2 Coming to North America & Europe?
Post by: neuroanatomist on February 28, 2014, 10:30:51 AM
Read the interview and also the link to the answer to the technical AF question by Chuck Westfall. This blew my mind a bit. Thought I'd share it.

"On the other hand, because AF precision is proportional to maximum aperture with Dual Pixel CMOS AF, it scales itself automatically and dynamically according to the supported EF or EF-S lens in use. For example, Dual Pixel CMOS AF achieves a longer baseline for AF precision with an f/4 lens compared to an f/5.6 lens, and so on all the way down the line to f/1.0. At the other end of the scale, Dual Pixel CMOS AF supports autofocusing with maximum apertures as small as f/11, a full two stops smaller than is possible with the 70D's TTL-SIR-AF system. And because the AF data is measured directly from the imaging sensor, there is no need for AF Microadjustment."

I kinda want to try a 70D out for the day.

That's really the point of DPAF - by using all pixels of ~80% of the image sensor for AF, in effect you have an AF sensor with an incredibly flexible array of dynamically assignable phase detect sensor lines.  They can be shorter or longer to maximize accuracy at any aperture, in theory (although I suspect lack of processing power precludes this for now) the orientation of the phase difference could vary through the full 180° depending on the feature of interest.
Title: Re: EOS M2 Coming to North America & Europe?
Post by: bvukich on February 28, 2014, 10:31:38 AM
M3 with DPAF.  Sold.  :)

This with the 22mm... would be my everyday camera.

I take a 5D3, a 60D and between 4-6 lenses almost everywhere I go, but there's plenty of times I'd like something smaller, lighter, and cheaper.  And if I'm going to an amusement or water park, it's just impractical to lug around that much gear; what to do with it while on rides?  This and a small waterproof bag I can stick in a cargo pocket, and I'm set.
Title: Re: EOS M2 Coming to North America & Europe?
Post by: hoodlum on February 28, 2014, 10:32:22 AM
Just remember that the Dual PDAF is not accurate and is only used for rough estimation of focus.  CDAF is still used to determine final focus.
Title: Re: EOS M2 Coming to North America & Europe?
Post by: ashmadux on February 28, 2014, 10:58:45 AM
I love this camera. ill buy one just to hold onto it in case my m1 breaks.

the metal casing saved it from a few drops very recently- and that touch screen is unrivaled. carry it with the 10-22, and the 50 1.4, and its just a beautiful thing.


shame on the haters, you guys dont now what your missing. its a great TOOL.
Title: Re: EOS M2 Coming to North America & Europe?
Post by: drjlo on February 28, 2014, 11:07:23 AM
With cameras like Sony A6000 and Fuji X-T1 looming, this M2 news is just too little, too late. 
EOS "M3" with an improved sensor and A6000-like AF prowess coming to North America, now that would be an interesting news.
Title: Re: EOS M2 Coming to North America & Europe?
Post by: ashmadux on February 28, 2014, 11:56:40 AM
I wonder if some of you guys know what this sensor can do.

Ive shot people, and landscapes with it. The only limitation is the lens. I wish the 22/2 was sharper, but it still does a god job.

High iso night photography looks almost as good as the 6D. that was pretty surprising to see. and it damn sure focuses better than the 6d as well.
Title: Re: EOS M2 Coming to North America & Europe?
Post by: BL on February 28, 2014, 12:46:55 PM
I agree with the sentiments above.  This little gem is my workhorse for anything that does not move.

That said, I don't think there are enough improvements with the M2 to avoid another firesale debacle if it comes priced ridiculously at $700+ again.

But knowing Canon, I can probably look forward to picking up a heavily discounted M2 for $299 a year after it releases  :-\
Title: Re: EOS M2 Coming to North America & Europe?
Post by: daemorhedron on February 28, 2014, 03:58:24 PM
I recently bought a M2 after using an M for so long. I am honestly surprised how underrated if not hated these bodies are. They really are gems, but I admit extreme disappointment at the following things:

1. The M2 only has wireless tethering, not wired. It's ok, but not great. Rates about same as Sony A7 and gets a 'cute but not entirely useful' rating from me. How and why wired tethering does not work is a complete mystery to me.

2. Spot metering. JEEZ Canon, this has been a sore subject for so long, let's get that going already!

3. Port door changed and can seriously only be described as 'fugly if not fawkward'.

4. EXTREME disappointment at Canon's lack of commitment to this line, but rumor has it that will change. Curious to see more 'pro' lenses if not bodies. Speed booster would be heavenly too.

5. No Magic Lantern as far as I know. Very sad panda, but hopefully will change.

Will be posting a youtube review online soon, including showing differences between M, M2 and Sony A7. =)
Title: Re: EOS M2 Coming to North America & Europe?
Post by: daemorhedron on February 28, 2014, 04:01:14 PM
Oh and...

6. Complete lack of focus peaking, which is not only doable with ML, it's something your competition is doing and doing well. This is high up on the wishlist for me personally, but I imagine that ML will come through sooner than Canon will.

Title: Re: EOS M2 Coming to North America & Europe?
Post by: lensgrabber on February 28, 2014, 04:19:29 PM


Will be posting a youtube review online soon, including showing differences between M, M2 and Sony A7. =)

Very interested to see the focus speeds between the M and M2.  I love everything about the M except for the slow focus.  My 60D gets almost no play time now.
Title: Re: EOS M2 Coming to North America & Europe?
Post by: Taemobig on February 28, 2014, 07:34:35 PM
Only reason I bought the first M was the price drop. If the M2 goes down to $299, then I'll definitely get it.
Title: Re: EOS M2 Coming to North America & Europe?
Post by: slclick on February 28, 2014, 09:07:15 PM
Hd the M, the adapter was alright, never tried an M lens. Realized that I love having a viewfinder and the touchscreen bugged me, I'm a weird mix of modern yet curmudgeoning. Basically I like dials and joysticks.
Title: Re: EOS M2 Coming to North America & Europe?
Post by: Zv on February 28, 2014, 10:45:54 PM


Will be posting a youtube review online soon, including showing differences between M, M2 and Sony A7. =)

Very interested to see the focus speeds between the M and M2.  I love everything about the M except for the slow focus.  My 60D gets almost no play time now.

I had a play about with the M and M2 side by side at a camera store. The M2 AF speed is much faster than the M, it locks instantly. The M has about a half second delay where you hear the AF motor buzz and hunt but on the M2 the beep is heard right after you press the button. Much more snappier and decisive. I also had a play about with an a7r and of course the AF on that was super fast but for most general subject matter the M2 would suffice.

I'm seriously thinking of upgrading to the M2. Maybe once the price comes down a bit more.
Title: Re: EOS M2 Coming to North America & Europe?
Post by: Bob Howland on March 01, 2014, 08:41:32 AM
Apparently not - An update from Imaging Resource:

"[Editor's note: We received an update after we went to press that Canon USA does not have plans to sell the EOS M2 at this time. We'll let you guys know if this changes!]"

Wild guess: Canon still has M's in stock and they don't want to completely kill the market for them.
Title: Re: UPDATE: EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
Post by: ajfotofilmagem on March 01, 2014, 09:13:37 AM
That miscalculation, huh? Canon USA imported as gigantic amount of EOS-M, even selling for $300 could not get rid of inventory. Now will not bring M2, while not emptying the shelves of M original. If the M3 comes with the 70D sensor, can be well accepted in the U.S. market, but it should cost around $ 900. :-\ In this case I prefer SL1. 8)
Title: Re: UPDATE: EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
Post by: distant.star on March 01, 2014, 10:04:46 AM
.
Lost in translation.

What the guy meant was...

I HAVE an M2, and I'll bring it with me on my trip to North America.

Title: Re: UPDATE: EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
Post by: Rick on March 01, 2014, 10:17:16 AM
Waiting until a model sells out that historically hasn't sold well to bring in something that might actually sell briskly? Almost makes Canon-sense except that Canon didn't actually say this.
Title: Re: UPDATE: EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
Post by: Greenmeenie on March 01, 2014, 12:47:20 PM
Canon is really shooting themselves. They are totally dropping the ball in the mirrorless department. Especially now that the Sony A7 has burst onto the scene. Its obvious to see that mirrorless FF is the future...yet Canon seems so stubborn that it won't even support its aspc mirrorless here in the states. I think they are making a mistake. As a longtime canon user & supporter, I am going to be buying the Sony A7. I'm excited by it, like I haven't been excited by a canon in awhile. To be fair, I think Nikon is dropping the mirrorless ball too. Perhaps they both think their user base is so big & loyal that they do t have to make a move in the mirrorless world. But I think they are doing this at their own peril. They've already lost the point & shoot sector to smartphones. Perhaps that was inevitable. But this is NOT. Canon can easily enter this realm & dominate...but they are choosing not to. I find this not only strange, but stupid.

The Sony A7 is not a gimmick, its a game changer. I'll be able to use all my canon glass, along with Nikon glass and Leica, voightlander, and zeiss manual focus rangefinder lenses. I'm in heaven. I was saving for a 5d3, but the sony a7 has changed my mind. And trust me, I was a loyal canon head.

Canon better wake up and stop sitting on its hands. And this goes for Nikon too. Sony has thrown the gauntlet down and really challenged the big two.
Title: Re: UPDATE: EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
Post by: neuroanatomist on March 01, 2014, 01:02:09 PM
Too bad the gauntlet has poor battery life, an AF system not suitable for tracking moving subjects, and comes from a company notorious for not delivering long-term support for its own product lines.   ::)
Title: Re: UPDATE: EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
Post by: Greenmeenie on March 01, 2014, 01:12:52 PM
Too bad the gauntlet has poor battery life, an AF system not suitable for tracking moving subjects, and comes from a company notorious for not delivering long-term support for its own product lines.   ::)

Fair enough. I'm no Sony fanboy. But the A7 is the first of its kind. Is it perfect? Um...no. Could battery life be better? Of course. But carrying a spare or two isn't the end of the world. And as far as the AF system not being up to snuff, for me, that doesn't apply since I prefer manual focus. It does have a cool focus peaking feature.

Believe me, I was totally going to buy a canon FF DSLR for my travel/street photography. I was never tempted by another camera company...but that all changed when the sony a7 came out. I'm just saying that's me. I want the FF yumminess...but I also want the stealthy smallness because I travel all over the world. Canon wasn't addressing that. Sony is. I've been waiting for a Canon answer to the A7 FF mirrorless...but none was forthcoming. So...it was an easy decision for me.
Title: Re: UPDATE: EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
Post by: neuroanatomist on March 01, 2014, 01:25:45 PM
The body is smaller, but the lenses still need to cover a FF image circle.  If you're traveling with 1-2 relatively small lenses, I can definitely see the benefit.  Personally, I usually travel with ~4 lenses covering 16-300mm, f/2.8 on the wider end, including a TS lens, tripod, etc.  A smaller/lighter body would probably save <5% weight and not change the bag I'd choose, so there's not a lot of benefit from that, for me. 

I do like the idea of a higher MP body that works with my existing lenses.  But frankly, I don't really need the MP in a travel body.  A higher MP body with all the AF, fps, and ergonomic advantages of the 1D X would be great for birds/wildlife, though.

I do hope Canon continues to develop the mirrorless segment. DPAF is well-suited for that, and I expect that technology will make it to the M line, then to FF dSLRs, and eventually (hopefully) to a FF mirrorless. 
Title: Re: UPDATE: EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
Post by: michi on March 01, 2014, 03:54:38 PM
I gave the M a shot.  It's a great little camera.  I got frustrated when they announced that the wide angle zoom wasn't coming to the US, nor any other stuff.  I used EF-M lenses with the adapter.  In the end I bought the SL1 when Amazon had it on sale for $350.  Absolutely love that thing.  Small, no adapter or new lenses needed, image quality and AF are better than the M.  Yeah, it's not as small, but it does the job. Heck, you even have back button focusing.
Title: Re: EOS M2 Coming to North America & Europe?
Post by: sdsr on March 01, 2014, 04:09:46 PM
I love this camera. ill buy one just to hold onto it in case my m1 breaks.

the metal casing saved it from a few drops very recently- and that touch screen is unrivaled. carry it with the 10-22, and the 50 1.4, and its just a beautiful thing.


shame on the haters, you guys dont now what your missing. its a great TOOL.

Assuming you're referring to the original M rather than the M2 (that's what your opening sentence implies, at any rate) some of us who don't like it ("hate" is too strong) know exactly what we're missing because we owned one and, even though it can make very good images, think it's a trial to use ergonomically, whether compared to a dslr or other, better designed, mirrorless bodies.     
Title: Re: UPDATE: EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
Post by: AvTvM on March 01, 2014, 04:49:01 PM
Too bad the gauntlet has poor battery life, an AF system not suitable for tracking moving subjects, and comes from a company notorious for not delivering long-term support for its own product lines.   ::)

and yet ... as imperfect as the Sony A7/R may be .. Canon has not even been able to create any mirrorless cameras that could even remotely compete with them. Witness .. the EOS-M.

And just like Sony, Canon first created APS-C lenses with their own mount (EF-S) and then yet another mount and lens line-up for EF-M to match and take advantage of the shorter flange-distance of mirrorless cameras. That leaves Canon with currently 3 differnt lens- and mount types of which 2 look pretty much doomed ... and may be disabandoned soon enough: EF-M [unless Canon manages to revive that dead-end] and EF-S [dead end as soon as APS-C DSLRs will be gone for good] ...
Title: Re: UPDATE: EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
Post by: pwp on March 01, 2014, 05:48:04 PM
I gave the M a shot.......in the end I bought the SL1 when Amazon had it on sale for $350.  Absolutely love that thing. 
After a long string of disappointing compacts I bought the SL1 when it first shipped. What a little gem of a camera, tiny size (especially with the 40mm pancake attached), light weight and with all the benefits of being a DSLR. The package would be complete with a 22mm pancake. This is now my travel camera, usually with the brilliant EF-S 15-85is.

-pw
Title: Re: UPDATE: EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
Post by: hiplnsdrftr on March 01, 2014, 06:11:07 PM
The M, a timid release of a half hearted product... Canon could easily make something that would blow our minds and set the camera world on fire, they chose not to. Instead they let Ricoh, Fuji and Sony have some moments of glory. Their fear of harming Rebel sales allows these other brands some sort of safety net. For now I guess.
Title: Re: UPDATE: EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
Post by: slclick on March 01, 2014, 06:20:37 PM
I gave the M a shot.......in the end I bought the SL1 when Amazon had it on sale for $350.  Absolutely love that thing. 
After a long string of disappointing compacts I bought the SL1 when it first shipped. What a little gem of a camera, tiny size (especially with the 40mm pancake attached), light weight and with all the benefits of being a DSLR. The package would be complete with a 22mm pancake. This is now my travel camera, usually with the brilliant EF-S 15-85is.

-pw

My friend has one with a Voigtlander 20 and it is remarkable. Sweet street shooter, if you're good with MF
Title: Re: EOS M2 Coming to North America & Europe?
Post by: dtaylor on March 01, 2014, 07:23:40 PM
2. Spot metering. JEEZ Canon, this has been a sore subject for so long, let's get that going already!

It's a LiveView camera. Why do you need anything other then full manual and your eyes?

Seriously. I don't bother with any AE mode or metering pattern on my M. I just spin the dial until the scene is correct on the LCD. It's a wonderful way to work, especially in tricky lighting scenarios. You could claim AE is faster, but I would guess it's not once you count AE failures.
Title: Re: UPDATE: EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
Post by: dtaylor on March 01, 2014, 07:25:49 PM
Too bad the gauntlet has poor battery life, an AF system not suitable for tracking moving subjects, and comes from a company notorious for not delivering long-term support for its own product lines.   ::)

Ummm...were you referring to the A7 or the M?  ;D
Title: Re: UPDATE: EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
Post by: dtaylor on March 01, 2014, 07:36:11 PM
The M, a timid release of a half hearted product... Canon could easily make something that would blow our minds and set the camera world on fire, they chose not to. Instead they let Ricoh, Fuji and Sony have some moments of glory. Their fear of harming Rebel sales allows these other brands some sort of safety net. For now I guess.

The bummer is that the M didn't miss the mark by much. It's a great camera and gets as much use as any of my DSLRs. I love it for street and travel. Both the 22mm and 18-55 IS are great lenses, especially considering their prices.

Canon stumbled on the original AF algorithms, was timid in the release, was priced too high, and then failed to follow up. If they had fixed the AF sooner, shown some commitment with new lenses, and priced it appropriately for the U.S. market things would have been different.

Now? Who knows. I can't imagine Canon would drop the mount, at least not as long as mirrorless is hot in Asia. But I have no idea if they will ever fully commit to mirrorless and reintroduce it to the U.S. I'm glad I have my M an I'm glad I live in a world where it's easy to order bodies and lenses from overseas.
Title: Re: UPDATE: EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
Post by: Don Haines on March 01, 2014, 07:57:34 PM
The M, a timid release of a half hearted product... Canon could easily make something that would blow our minds and set the camera world on fire, they chose not to. Instead they let Ricoh, Fuji and Sony have some moments of glory. Their fear of harming Rebel sales allows these other brands some sort of safety net. For now I guess.

The bummer is that the M didn't miss the mark by much. It's a great camera and gets as much use as any of my DSLRs. I love it for street and travel. Both the 22mm and 18-55 IS are great lenses, especially considering their prices.

Canon stumbled on the original AF algorithms, was timid in the release, was priced too high, and then failed to follow up. If they had fixed the AF sooner, shown some commitment with new lenses, and priced it appropriately for the U.S. market things would have been different.

Now? Who knows. I can't imagine Canon would drop the mount, at least not as long as mirrorless is hot in Asia. But I have no idea if they will ever fully commit to mirrorless and reintroduce it to the U.S. I'm glad I have my M an I'm glad I live in a world where it's easy to order bodies and lenses from overseas.

I think that in the long term, the DSLR will go the way of the film camera. Mirrorless is the future. It is still behind in a few areas, but ahead in others.... eventually mirrorless will win and all those mechanical parts will disappear.

The big question (at least to me) is form factor. Go to big and things get unwieldy very fast... go to small and they start to get hard to hold and quality suffers. The 35mm camera form factor seems to be the sweet spot so my bet is that when things like the 5D??? goes mirrorless it will keep to the same general size.

That said, there is a market for smaller quality cameras. Go to something like an EOS-M and get a few of the compact lenses and you have a decent little system. Give it an adaptor and native support for the big lenses and your system becomes a lot more versatile with no additional work/risk required.

It is good to have a little brother who will not be left as an orphan...
Title: Re: UPDATE: EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
Post by: Zv on March 01, 2014, 09:42:17 PM
I don't think it's fair to compare an EOS M to the Sony A7 /A7r. The Sony looks and handles like a DSLR. In the hand it feels solid and well constructed. An expensive piece of engineering.

The M looks and handles like a compact camera. That's what Canon set out to do. It looks simple and small. The opposite of the A7.

Then there's the price difference. Two completely different markets.

Title: Re: UPDATE: EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
Post by: Greenmeenie on March 02, 2014, 10:05:09 AM
I don't think it's fair to compare an EOS M to the Sony A7 /A7r. The Sony looks and handles like a DSLR. In the hand it feels solid and well constructed. An expensive piece of engineering.

The M looks and handles like a compact camera. That's what Canon set out to do. It looks simple and small. The opposite of the A7.

Then there's the price difference. Two completely different markets.

True. I guess I was just making the point about how Canon doesn't seem to be supporting the mirrorless movement. First with this announcement that the EosM 2 won't be coming to the US, and with my point how they don't seem to care about Sony's aggressive move in the FF mirrorless realm with the A7.
Title: Re: UPDATE: EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
Post by: Greenmeenie on March 02, 2014, 10:15:32 AM
The M, a timid release of a half hearted product... Canon could easily make something that would blow our minds and set the camera world on fire, they chose not to. Instead they let Ricoh, Fuji and Sony have some moments of glory. Their fear of harming Rebel sales allows these other brands some sort of safety net. For now I guess.

If canon were smart, they'd make the Rebel line mirrorless. Test the waters by putting it into an already established and popular line. First off, the rebel is already small. Provide adapters for lenses. Bam. Of course this won't happen, but I think eventually Canon will have to answer Sony. Sony won't stop. They are onto something with the A7. The next version of the A7 will be even better. Pretty soon Canon will have a lot of catching up to do if they take their time. True, Sony has its own work to do to get more native lenses for their new system...but with adapters, photographers can use lenses from Canon, Nikon, Leica, voitlander etc...so they actually have more lenses than the big two available.

It also makes sense for Canon to move to mirrorless. Less moving parts. Cheaper faster production.
Title: Re: UPDATE: EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
Post by: photonius on March 02, 2014, 10:22:25 AM

If canon were smart, they'd make the Rebel line mirrorless.

It won't happen until the AF is there. Even with the 70D sensor it's not there yet.
Title: Re: UPDATE: EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
Post by: Sanaraken on March 02, 2014, 11:01:58 AM
The M, a timid release of a half hearted product... Canon could easily make something that would blow our minds and set the camera world on fire, they chose not to. Instead they let Ricoh, Fuji and Sony have some moments of glory. Their fear of harming Rebel sales allows these other brands some sort of safety net. For now I guess.

If canon were smart, they'd make the Rebel line mirrorless. Test the waters by putting it into an already established and popular line. First off, the rebel is already small. Provide adapters for lenses. Bam. Of course this won't happen, but I think eventually Canon will have to answer Sony. Sony won't stop. They are onto something with the A7. The next version of the A7 will be even better. Pretty soon Canon will have a lot of catching up to do if they take their time. True, Sony has its own work to do to get more native lenses for their new system...but with adapters, photographers can use lenses from Canon, Nikon, Leica, voitlander etc...so they actually have more lenses than the big two available.

It also makes sense for Canon to move to mirrorless. Less moving parts. Cheaper faster production.

So your saying Canon is dumb? For being number 1 and best selling camera brand on earth. So you are smarter than their engineering and marketing departments. You remind me of when the D800 came out. It was suppose to be a game changer. Sony is noturious of abandoning their product line and probably a company that will go bankcrupt soon. I remember when they came out with the translucent mirror suppose to be a game changer. That can acheive the best FPS on any DSLR. Where are those now. I havent seen any been use on sports photography.
Title: Re: UPDATE: EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
Post by: Don Haines on March 02, 2014, 11:04:29 AM
The M, a timid release of a half hearted product... Canon could easily make something that would blow our minds and set the camera world on fire, they chose not to. Instead they let Ricoh, Fuji and Sony have some moments of glory. Their fear of harming Rebel sales allows these other brands some sort of safety net. For now I guess.

If canon were smart, they'd make the Rebel line mirrorless. Test the waters by putting it into an already established and popular line. First off, the rebel is already small. Provide adapters for lenses. Bam. Of course this won't happen, but I think eventually Canon will have to answer Sony. Sony won't stop. They are onto something with the A7. The next version of the A7 will be even better. Pretty soon Canon will have a lot of catching up to do if they take their time. True, Sony has its own work to do to get more native lenses for their new system...but with adapters, photographers can use lenses from Canon, Nikon, Leica, voitlander etc...so they actually have more lenses than the big two available.

It also makes sense for Canon to move to mirrorless. Less moving parts. Cheaper faster production.
Make the Rebels mirrorless and keep the existing flange distances so you don't need an adaptor to use the existing lenses......
Title: Re: UPDATE: EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
Post by: AvTvM on March 02, 2014, 12:23:43 PM
Make the Rebels mirrorless and keep the existing flange distances so you don't need an adaptor to use the existing lenses......

no no no. Make em small and thin. And include the adapter with every camera body at no separate charge.
That way, we can have it both:
Title: Re: UPDATE: EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
Post by: vscd on March 02, 2014, 12:41:01 PM
Quote
- small size with native lenses, for when we want to "go small" and
-"regular size" with "regular lenses" when small size is not needed

And then you have a small, unusable, brick with a long lense on it. Feels like a Rebel with 400L 2.8... what do you all want with a small and light camera? Of course I understand that size matters on daily street photography, but I *dont want* to have anything smaller than a 5D while working with serious aims. A Cam is a tool, not a toy or gimmick.

I even don't like an EVF, no just because of the flatten 2D Image, but for the lack of shoots with one Akku. Maybe Canon will invent a hybrid solution (electronic informations on demand inside an optical VF), then I'm back on the horse. But please go away with those touchscreens or liveview-shooters.

The mirrorless is a hype, which everyone seems to push at the moment. Just stop a second and make up your *own* thoughts. There never went any mirror broken, the shutter is the mechanical part which dies and all those new cameras still  have it. The mirrors are getting more quiet than ever and a real AF-Array is *AGES* better than the lousy onchip-resolutions. Using the sensor all the time will make the chip getting warmer and more prone to noise.

Title: Re: UPDATE: EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
Post by: LDS on March 02, 2014, 01:00:32 PM
So your saying Canon is dumb? For being number 1 and best selling camera brand on earth. So you are smarter than their engineering and marketing departments.
Truth is that big, successful companies make big mistakes too. Look at Microsoft with Windows Vista and 8. Or with its Surface 1.0 tablets. Users told them they were bad products even before they were released, Microsoft didn't accept critics, delivered products that didn't sell and had to return on its steps and correct mistakes that were clearly visible to everybody, but to those in charge of the products. And there are many examples from many other companies.
The fact that Canon will not sell the M2 in Western markets shows it understood it's the wrong product for such markets - and some humble user can spot them and find better ideas. But it looks that someone at Canon is unwillingly to say "I was wrong - we need a different kind of product". Don't believe Canon engineering and marketing is populated by superhumans who never make mistakes. And I prefer a company that learns from mistakes, that one that stubbornly denies them.
Title: Re: UPDATE: EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
Post by: vscd on March 02, 2014, 02:04:54 PM
At the moment there seems to be no big market for mirrorless cams like in asia. Don't forget you're all some kind of interested people, which read news or are envolved in the materia. Normal people go into the shop and buy what they know... or what they think it's ok. Nikon or Canon. And you can't get anything more valueable than a Nikon D3100 for example. For this price no mirrorless can even try to beat the small DSLR.

I suggest to read the Interview with the Olympus Product Strategy Manager:

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/3168945932/cp-2014-olympus-interview-our-reason-to-exist-is-to-push-the-envelope (http://www.dpreview.com/articles/3168945932/cp-2014-olympus-interview-our-reason-to-exist-is-to-push-the-envelope)

Quote
I spoke to Fujifilm recently, and I was told by a senior marketing executive that if Canon and Nikon made serious mirrorless cameras, this would help the format to gain traction. Do you agree?

Well that’s his view! We’ll keep on communicating the benefits of mirrorless but Canon and Nikon dominate the interchangeable lens camera market and if they did come out with serious, reliable mirrorless cameras, I agree that yes - it might stimulate the market and boost sales of our cameras. Maybe it’s intentional that they haven’t launched enthusiast-focused mirrorless cameras, because they’re dominant. They’ve been maturing their systems for years. Maybe it’s strategic that they’re staying away.

The only plus for mirrorless cams is the size, but with the existing Nikon- or Canonbayonett the advantage is gone. And new systems? Why? But I agree, if the ships turns and the mirrorless systems are getting better and better, the big two could fall down very deep.
Title: Re: UPDATE: EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
Post by: traveller on March 02, 2014, 02:29:18 PM
The only plus for mirrorless cams is the size, but with the existing Nikon- or Canonbayonett the advantage is gone. And new systems? Why? But I agree, if the ships turns and the mirrorless systems are getting better and better, the big two could fall down very deep.

Not necessarily, once you've dumped the mirror, there's a lot of room inside a legacy mount body where you could put lens elements. I suspect that this is what Canon and Nikon are thinking; why throw away your biggest advantage over your competitors by changing your lens mount? Sony has nothing to lose, the Alpha mount was a distant third place also-ran.
Title: Re: UPDATE: EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
Post by: vscd on March 02, 2014, 05:54:35 PM
Quote
Not necessarily, once you've dumped the mirror, there's a lot of room inside a legacy mount body where you could put lens elements. I suspect that this is what Canon and Nikon are thinking; why throw away your biggest advantage over your competitors by changing your lens mount? Sony has nothing to lose, the Alpha mount was a distant third place also-ran.

This already exists, it's called EF-S, and the cameras are as big as a fullframe 6D f.e..
Title: Re: UPDATE: EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
Post by: Sanaraken on March 02, 2014, 06:53:20 PM
So your saying Canon is dumb? For being number 1 and best selling camera brand on earth. So you are smarter than their engineering and marketing departments.
Truth is that big, successful companies make big mistakes too. Look at Microsoft with Windows Vista and 8. Or with its Surface 1.0 tablets. Users told them they were bad products even before they were released, Microsoft didn't accept critics, delivered products that didn't sell and had to return on its steps and correct mistakes that were clearly visible to everybody, but to those in charge of the products. And there are many examples from many other companies.
The fact that Canon will not sell the M2 in Western markets shows it understood it's the wrong product for such markets - and some humble user can spot them and find better ideas. But it looks that someone at Canon is unwillingly to say "I was wrong - we need a different kind of product". Don't believe Canon engineering and marketing is populated by superhumans who never make mistakes. And I prefer a company that learns from mistakes, that one that stubbornly denies them.

Yes Canon is very sucessfull and know what they are doing. Thats why they dominate. Why would they come out with a really good mirrorless and I know they have the technology already. It will canabilize their sales on the DSLR market specially the Rebels.
Title: Re: UPDATE: EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
Post by: traveller on March 03, 2014, 08:22:29 AM
Quote
Not necessarily, once you've dumped the mirror, there's a lot of room inside a legacy mount body where you could put lens elements. I suspect that this is what Canon and Nikon are thinking; why throw away your biggest advantage over your competitors by changing your lens mount? Sony has nothing to lose, the Alpha mount was a distant third place also-ran.

This already exists, it's called EF-S, and the cameras are as big as a fullframe 6D f.e..

Probably because the difference is about 4mm, versus 26mm between EF and EF-M (measured slightly differently -i.e. flange back), and last time I looked the 100D was substantailly smaller than the 6D  :D
Title: Re: UPDATE: EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
Post by: AvTvM on March 03, 2014, 11:50:48 AM
Yes Canon is very sucessfull and know what they are doing. Thats why they dominate. Why would they come out with a really good mirrorless and I know they have the technology already. It will canabilize their sales on the DSLR market specially the Rebels.

Why? Because otherwise Sony, Fujifilm, Panasonic, Olympus and all others will cannibalize their Rebels and all of their other DSLRs with the possible exception of action-oiented models (1D-X)?  ;D
Title: Re: UPDATE: EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
Post by: traveller on March 03, 2014, 12:37:37 PM
Yes Canon is very sucessfull and know what they are doing. Thats why they dominate. Why would they come out with a really good mirrorless and I know they have the technology already. It will canabilize their sales on the DSLR market specially the Rebels.

Why? Because otherwise Sony, Fujifilm, Panasonic, Olympus and all others will cannibalize their Rebels and all of their other DSLRs with the possible exception of action-oiented models (1D-X)?  ;D

They haven't so far and growth in mirrorless in at least two major markets has reversed.

That's not to say that there's no future for mirrorless, nor that mirrorless isn't the future, just that it doesn't seem to be the present. Why would Canon and Nikon risk undermining their supremacy by bringing out 'pro' mirrorless cameras? Isn't that effectively endorsing their competitors' efforts? If Canon and Nikon dump their legacy mounts, what competitive advantage do they have over the likes of Sony or Fujifilm?

I think that's the crux of Canon's current dilemma. They didn't want to rock the boat by developing mirrorless, but evidently elements in their hierarchy felt the need to enter what was a growing market (hence EOS-M and Nikon 1). Now that the growth has died, so has Canon and Nikon's enthusiasm for their mirrorless systems.

Who knows how this will end up, maybe EOS-M will develop into a fully fledged system (especially if there is room for a full frame sensor in the specification), or the EF mount may start to evolve towards going mirrorless. I suspect that this isn't fully decided at Canon and will depend on what happens in the market this year. 
Title: Re: UPDATE: EOS M2 Not Coming to North America
Post by: moreorless on March 04, 2014, 07:23:59 AM
Yes Canon is very sucessfull and know what they are doing. Thats why they dominate. Why would they come out with a really good mirrorless and I know they have the technology already. It will canabilize their sales on the DSLR market specially the Rebels.

Why? Because otherwise Sony, Fujifilm, Panasonic, Olympus and all others will cannibalize their Rebels and all of their other DSLRs with the possible exception of action-oiented models (1D-X)?  ;D

They haven't so far and growth in mirrorless in at least two major markets has reversed.

That's not to say that there's no future for mirrorless, nor that mirrorless isn't the future, just that it doesn't seem to be the present. Why would Canon and Nikon risk undermining their supremacy by bringing out 'pro' mirrorless cameras? Isn't that effectively endorsing their competitors' efforts? If Canon and Nikon dump their legacy mounts, what competitive advantage do they have over the likes of Sony or Fujifilm?

I think that's the crux of Canon's current dilemma. They didn't want to rock the boat by developing mirrorless, but evidently elements in their hierarchy felt the need to enter what was a growing market (hence EOS-M and Nikon 1). Now that the growth has died, so has Canon and Nikon's enthusiasm for their mirrorless systems.

Who knows how this will end up, maybe EOS-M will develop into a fully fledged system (especially if there is room for a full frame sensor in the specification), or the EF mount may start to evolve towards going mirrorless. I suspect that this isn't fully decided at Canon and will depend on what happens in the market this year.

Personally my feeling is that reduced flange distance on FF is simply much less of an advantage than on ASPC since your having to deal both with larger lenses for a larger image circle and long lenses to avoid more extreme light angles.

I think its notable that both Canon and Nikon have put most of their focus on FF devolpment over the last couple of years, more levels of body on offer and a lot of new lenses on offer whilst EF-S/DX lenses have been limted mostly to kit updates.

To me it looks like theres a real divide in the mirrorless market between east and west, in the former ultra small view finderless bodies make up most of the sales, in the latter theres a much smaller market focused on higher end bodies with viewfinders. My guess is if Canon come up with a higher end ASPC body then it will be released in the west.