canon rumors FORUM

Rumors => EOS Bodies => Topic started by: Canon Rumors on March 26, 2014, 09:26:23 AM

Title: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: Canon Rumors on March 26, 2014, 09:26:23 AM

Northlight has received word that Canon will be releasing a high resolution big brother to the EOS 5D Mark III in the fall. This is another reference to an EOS 3D type of camera (it’s been going on since this site started). The higher resolution camera would also shoot 4K video and have an abundance of video features. Pricing for the camera would come above the EOS 5D Mark III.


There’s always mentions of high resolution sensors showing up in Canon DSLRs for testing around the globe, and I don’t doubt that it’s going on. We were told back in the fall that Canon would be releasing 3 new DSLRs in 2014, and we’ve already seen one in the 1200D. The other will most definitely be the followup to the EOS 7D, the third camera is unknown. I’d like to think it won’t be a replacement to the EOS Rebel T5i.


Source: [NL]


cr


Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: zim on March 26, 2014, 09:37:40 AM
wow it's going to be a busy ol last quarter with all these new cameras and 'year of the lens' lenses.  ::)
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: Niki on March 26, 2014, 09:50:04 AM
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<p><a href=\"http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_rumours.html\" target=\"_blank\">Northlight has received word</a> that Canon will be releasing a high resolution big brother to the EOS 5D Mark III in the fall. This is another reference to an EOS 3D type of camera (it’s been going on since this site started). The higher resolution camera would also shoot 4K video and have an abundance of video features. Pricing for the camera would come above the EOS 5D Mark III.</p>
<p>There’s always mentions of high resolution sensors showing up in Canon DSLRs for testing around the globe, and I don’t doubt that it’s going on. We were told back in the fall that Canon would be releasing 3 new DSLRs in 2014, and we’ve already seen one in the 1200D. The other will most definitely be the followup to the EOS 7D, the third camera is unknown. I’d like to think it won’t be a replacement to the EOS Rebel T5i.</p>
<p>Source: [<a href=\"http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/cameras/Canon_rumours.html\" target=\"_blank\">NL</a>]</p>
<p><strong><span style=\"color: #ff0000;\">c</span>r</strong></p>


credit cards almost paid off
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: dancook on March 26, 2014, 10:11:18 AM
Don't care about 4k, but give me a switchable EVF/OVF and I'll be all over that! :) I can hope..
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: Caps18 on March 26, 2014, 10:17:02 AM
Can movie theaters show 4K movies with their digital projectors?  I'm not really sure what resolution the average 'non-hollywood' film is shot in though.  I would assume it is 1080p or the wide screen equivalent.
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: Ivan Muller on March 26, 2014, 10:30:41 AM
Well, we have been waiting and waiting....

I think Canon is struggling to bring out a sensor that can compete with Sony's. To make it competitive they have to spend a lot more money on it, that's why the camera will cost more than the 5D3...what other reason can there be? If their technology was as good as Sonys why haven't they released it yet?

If I was Canon I would have just sourced my 36mp sensor from Sony! Then they could have had a Camera on the shelves long ago, and at a reasonable with  price point many happy Canon customers ...

At the moment my money votes for the A7R!

Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: Orangutan on March 26, 2014, 11:22:26 AM
I think Canon is struggling to bring out a sensor that can compete with Sony's. To make it competitive they have to spend a lot more money on it, that's why the camera will cost more than the 5D3...what other reason can there be? If their technology was as good as Sonys why haven't they released it yet?

Given how badly the Sony "sensors" are selling, Canon would be foolish to try to emulate that strategy.  No, Canon is trying to design a product that will increase their profits, just like all other companies.  Relative to other companies, Canon is doing quite well.  The reason they haven't come out with the thing you personally want is that they don't have to.  They will produce new products when the market demands them.  Until then, they'll milk (MILC?) the R&D they already have invested in the current line.

I know a die-hard Nikon fanboi who has a D800, and loves it.  He recently shot a 5D3 at a wedding, and confided to me that if he didn't already have money invested in Nikon gear, he would seriously consider buying a 5D3.  It ain't all about the sensor.
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: pedro on March 26, 2014, 11:32:55 AM
Well, my 5D3 still rocks. My faint guess with this new rumor is: Nikon somehow has a fairer strategy. They have an affordable FF (D600, here I'd prefer the 6D at 20 MP), an affordable high MP FF (D800, although there is no MRAW mode!) and a lower priced (in comparison to the 2 years old 1Dx) 16MP flagship D4s. So, it will look a bit awkwarded to me, if they ask an extra premium for more MPs. Hope they get their sensor tech resolved with this new babe. That is the only point of interest for me. And if Canon does so, there is hoping that the pixel count of the allrounder 5Ds will remain about the same, plus faster processors and improved sensor tech. I would really like to see improved ISO 51k (RAW) somewhere near the ISO 20k-25k of my current cam, IQ wise. What I've seen in relation to RAW IQ from a friend of mine testing his new D4s is quite nice. ISO 102400 and even 204800 are a nice alternative and for b/w you even dare to shootISO 409600.
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: Ivan Muller on March 26, 2014, 11:38:18 AM
I have a 6D and its a pretty cool camera, chose it above the 5D3 because for my type of shooting killer AF is not necessary, and I didnt want to pay so much more for the same size sensor. Sure Canon makes lots of money with their existing line up. But you know back in the days Canon was at the fore front, first affordable full frame, then the 5D2, and then? we waited and waited.. and are still waiting! I had my 5D2 for four years before I got the 6D. I would have spend money on a D800e equivalent, even if it was more expensive than the 5d3, which the D800 is not btw.  I do need more pixels now and again. A perfect second camera will be the A7r ...which means the waiting's theoretically over..once I have it, no matter how good the rumored megapixel offering will be, I wont buy another camera for at least three years. The best thing about mirror less is that we are not tied to one brand anymore. I can walk into a shop today and get a camera that will fit my TS24...36mp and that lens sounds very tempting to me!

Why are we waiting so long for Canons megapixel offering? Personally I just don't think their technology is there yet... ( but I would love to be wrong! )
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: Orangutan on March 26, 2014, 11:46:19 AM
Why are we waiting so long for Canons megapixel offering? Personally I just don't think their technology is there yet... ( but I would love to be wrong! )

Again, the question is not whether they have or don't have the tech, it's whether Canon's number crunchers think it will be profitable.  The sales of the D800 and A7R have been lackluster, so what's the point of doing a studio/landscape camera that won't make you a healthy profit?  Don't get me wrong: I'm glad the D800 and A7R are out there to push the tech and increase user demand.  I just believe that Canon uses smart business strategy: they make products that sell profitably.
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: rs on March 26, 2014, 12:06:41 PM
Can movie theaters show 4K movies with their digital projectors?  I'm not really sure what resolution the average 'non-hollywood' film is shot in though.  I would assume it is 1080p or the wide screen equivalent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_cinema (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_cinema)

Quote from: wikipedia
In digital cinema, resolutions are represented by the horizontal pixel count, usually 2K (2048×1080 or 2.2 megapixels) or 4K (4096×2160 or 8.8 megapixels).
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: 9VIII on March 26, 2014, 12:10:54 PM
wow it's going to be a busy ol last quarter with all these new cameras and 'year of the lens' lenses.  ::)

Well, there is that world renowned trade show that only happens every other year coming this September.

Hopefully a 32MP+ APS-C sensor is included in all those new sensors being tested, we need an SLR to compete with the compact super zooms.
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: Lightmaster on March 26, 2014, 12:36:50 PM
Can movie theaters show 4K movies with their digital projectors?  I'm not really sure what resolution the average 'non-hollywood' film is shot in though.  I would assume it is 1080p or the wide screen equivalent.

2048×1080 or 4096×2160
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: unfocused on March 26, 2014, 12:41:55 PM
This actually makes sense to me, although I've been skeptical about Canon's "need" to release a high megapixel full frame camera.

I'll go back to a prediction I make quite a while back – I can see Canon releasing a "5D HD" that offers a pixel density somewhere in the same neighborhood as the 7D (46 mp), perhaps a little less. Same body, same basic functionality (with a slower frame rate likely) just a new sensor and maybe a little faster processor.

It would give customers a choice, but keep their production costs down since many of the components could be shared by both bodies.  Canon has seen the D800 sales figures, so they know that high megapixels aren't in huge demand, but they probably also know there is a small subset of customers that will pay a premium for more resolution. Give them what they want, but keep the production costs down.
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: orionz06 on March 26, 2014, 12:47:23 PM
Makes me feel better about waiting out another year with the 7D as I slowly upgrade glass.  Results still improving as I await the next thing.  I just really don't want to wind up paying for 4K crap in the body. 

Timing is strange though, falls close to where I might guess a 5DIV would come in...
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: RGF on March 26, 2014, 01:48:50 PM
Canon has see the D800 sales figures, so they know that high megapixels aren't in huge demand, but they probably also know there is a small subset of customers that will pay a premium for more resolution. Give them what they want, but keep the production costs down.

I wonder how the D800 (e) are doing relative to the 5DM3.  Not in absolute sales but as share of pro / prosumer sales.  Also is the D800 (e) attracting people to adopt the Nikon line or stay with Nikon?

Personally I would like to see Canon adopt the Sony sensor and put it in a 5D body and then license Nikon's 14-24 lens.  That would be truly winning combination.

We have waited long enough for these 2 items and if there was serious competition, I think Canon would have done it or be seriously hurting.

BTW - there long glass is the best; easily topping Nikon.  They just need to a new ultra wide and a high MP body.
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: paulrossjones on March 26, 2014, 02:42:00 PM
This actually makes sense to me, although I've been skeptical about Canon's "need" to release a high megapixel full frame camera.

I'll go back to a prediction I make quite a while back – I can see Canon releasing a "5D HD" that offers a pixel density somewhere in the same neighborhood as the 7D (46 mp), perhaps a little less. Same body, same basic functionality (with a slower frame rate likely) just a new sensor and maybe a little faster processor.

It would give customers a choice, but keep their production costs down since many of the components could be shared by both bodies.  Canon has see the D800 sales figures, so they know that high megapixels aren't in huge demand, but they probably also know there is a small subset of customers that will pay a premium for more resolution. Give them what they want, but keep the production costs down.

hi, im not sure where you get your viewpoint. i shoot advertising images and i do use a 5dmk3, but the files are almost always on the edge of usability. if there is cropping, or shadows pulled up(or sky recovered) the canon is terrible. the only reason i haven't changed systems is that i shoot with a very shallow dof and the canon has the best lenses for this.
I have tested the d800e and i have brought a sony a7r and in every test i have done with the cameras together the sony sensor absolutely eats the canon. i find the latitude of the nikon and sony cameras closer to my p65+ (but obvious less res) but even better with the darks getting pulled up.
i don't know about the amateur market, but a large promotion of the professional advertising market (not the editorial or sports) has moved to the nikon d800e from the canon and even a lot have dropped medium format for nikon. i could list a dozen photographers in the top of their fields in the world now shooting with nikon. and thats just out of the few advertising photographers i know personally.

im not saying the nikon is the best for usability- the canon has the best interface, lenses and AF, but the file itself is very disappointing. i say this from a lot of canon file experience (I've shot at least 400,000 files with the 5dmk3 in the last few years). the 5dmk3 is a bit of a love hate camera for me..

i really hope canon answers with a better file (latitude wise)- higher MP (which is badly needed for my market) so i can throw away slow, difficult medium format and only need one camera for everything i shoot.

paul
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: Orangutan on March 26, 2014, 02:52:47 PM
a large promotion of the professional advertising market..

How big is that market?  Is it big enough to drive Canon's R&D and marketing strategy?  Maybe Canon is willing to let that market go (for a while) to avoid making a costly mistake.
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: paulrossjones on March 26, 2014, 03:27:00 PM
a large promotion of the professional advertising market..

How big is that market?  Is it big enough to drive Canon's R&D and marketing strategy?  Maybe Canon is willing to let that market go (for a while) to avoid making a costly mistake.

i guess they could, but i would have thought theres credibility in owning the top end of the market. the local dealer over here also says the d800 is really well. but maybe you are right?
but i think canon would be silly if they thought like that. its the resin that car manufactures have a limited run sports car- to set their place in the market. i can't see canon just letting the D800e be the best camera on the market.
and they can sell these at a lot higher cost- i am not that cost driven - nor any of the guys i mentioned early. sure we like saving money, but the features of the camera to make life easier is more important. cameras are one the cheapest part of our kits- we didn't ask for it to be this way, but it makes it easy to have multiple bodies etc. the original 1ds cost me 15k nod (12k usd) and it paid for itself on one job. happy to pay this much again for a "niche" market version of a canon camera that can answer the d800.
i heard a while back there was 9000 professional photographers in the UK alone- not sure if this figure is right, but i wouldn't be surprised. even if these people didn't really need the megapixels- i guarantee they would not be able to help them selves if there was a higher megapixel camera available. i can see that even wedding photographers could do with more megapixels- to allow for cropping and different formats. pixel binning makes for better files as well when downsized.

paul

Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: Lightmaster on March 26, 2014, 03:51:01 PM
i heard a while back there was 9000 professional photographers in the UK alone- not sure if this figure is right, but i wouldn't be surprised. even if these people didn't really need the megapixels- i guarantee they would not be able to help them selves if there was a higher megapixel camera available.

and one of them told me that he has no interest to switch (back) to nikon because of the D800 and it´s 36MP.... david noton.

what you want and what you need are two things. :)

i don´t NEED a high megapixel 35mm camera.
i sure don´t need canon to produce a 8000 euro high megapixel 35mm camera.
i bought into MF for this kind of use.

but i sure would not mind a better low iso image quality for landscape images, with more details and cleaner shadow areas.

Quote
....and it paid for itself on one job

well then im sure two or three of your jobs will pay for a medium format camera... not?
i have a phase one and i don´t even make real money with it (not enough that it would justify buying a MF camera).

so if you NEED it and you can make money from more MP... there is a solution -> MF.

i stopped looking for best landscape quality from 35mm cameras.
even the praised D800 can not beat MF.

if canon makes a high megapixel monster i guess it will cost more then the 1DX.
i doubt they produce something that will be in direct competition with the D800.

Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: sdsr on March 26, 2014, 04:20:52 PM

[....]

A perfect second camera will be the A7r ...which means the waiting's theoretically over..once I have it, no matter how good the rumored megapixel offering will be, I wont buy another camera for at least three years. The best thing about mirror less is that we are not tied to one brand anymore. I can walk into a shop today and get a camera that will fit my TS24...36mp and that lens sounds very tempting to me!

Why are we waiting so long for Canons megapixel offering?


As you point out, the only people who have to wait are brand loyalists.  Obviously some people have to be, but those who don't might as well do what some of us have done and supplement our Canon bodies with an A7r.  I love mine, both with its superb native primes and my Canon EF lenses (plus a few old manual focus lenses) - so much so that I'm not sure which is my second camera....
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: unfocused on March 26, 2014, 04:33:27 PM
...I'm not sure where you get your viewpoint. I shoot advertising images and I do use a 5dmk3, but the files are almost always on the edge of usability...a large proportion of the professional advertising market..

How big is that market?  Is it big enough to drive Canon's R&D and marketing strategy?  Maybe Canon is willing to let that market go (for a while) to avoid making a costly mistake.

...I guess they could, but I would have thought there's credibility in owning the top end of the market.

paul

I don't disagree. I think it's just a question of what that credibility might be worth...especially during difficult economic times.

My perspective is this: The entire professional market has been shrinking. I don't think anyone can deny that. Some segments may be growing, but even in the growing areas, they are more price sensitive than ever before.

That's not just photography, but just about everywhere. Companies want to get the most for their money and are slashing expenses everywhere they can.

That's reduced the overall market for professional photographers...it's reduced the budgets that are available to hire professional photographers...and it's reduced the resources available to companies like Canon. Those who are at the top of the market may be feeling this less than others as you may have clients who are less price sensitive, but I strongly suspect that for the bulk of the market, photography, like any service, is under intense pressure to hold down costs.

I think, but certainly don't know, that Canon has concentrated on the markets first where they can sell the most at the best profit. I think the 5DIII was perfectly suited to that strategy. The improved autofocus met pent up demand and the improved high ISO performance made it attractive to event and wedding photographers, which is probably the largest remaining pool of professionals out there.

The D800 to me, has always seemed like a fine camera, but it didn't appear to have as clear of a market. I can understand the appeal of advertising shooters but just how large is that market? My sense is that it is concentrated in large cities and I can't believe that the numbers are anywhere close to the numbers of wedding and event photographers. Professional landscape photographers are an even tinier subset of the professional base.

So, my premise is simply this: I think Canon went first for the largest market with the 5DIII. They actually "over-delivered" based on what people were demanding. (Go back and read threads from when the 5DIII first came out and see how many wedding photographers were ecstatic over the ISO performance and how many others were stunned that Canon would put almost the same autofocus as the 1DX in the 5DIII.)

The high megapixel market is a niche market. For those who need it, it is critically important. I understand that. I just don't know how many people need it.

So, this all goes back to my main premise, which is that the most cost effective approach for Canon would be to take an existing model (either the 1DX or the 5DIII) and produce a High Definition or HD version. That would allow them to maximize some production efficiencies while meeting the more narrow needs of those who want or need a higher definition body.

Long post I know, but trying to explain my reasoning. If you can show me where I am wrong, please do. You know the market better than I do and perhaps I'm totally off base, but so far, no one has been able to show me that.

Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: LetTheRightLensIn on March 26, 2014, 04:57:28 PM
Can movie theaters show 4K movies with their digital projectors?  I'm not really sure what resolution the average 'non-hollywood' film is shot in though.  I would assume it is 1080p or the wide screen equivalent.

At this point, some theaters can and some can't.

I just got a 4k monitor and I have to say some of the 4k clips are pretty amazing! It finally starts feeling more like you are there rather than looking at a digital video file. and it's awesome for stills images of course. and anything to do with text for that matter too.
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: LetTheRightLensIn on March 26, 2014, 05:03:27 PM
The reason they haven't come out with the thing you personally want is that they don't have to.  They will produce new products when the market demands them.  Until then, they'll milk (MILC?) the R&D they already have invested in the current line.



Granted the camera business is much different so this is maybe slightly sketchy of a comparison, but such an attitude isn't always the best for a company. Look at Atari, the engineers wanted them to release an advanced new computer with GUI and mouse and multi-tasking and crazy level graphics and audio but the management said they hadn't finished milking the old 8bit line yet and saw no point in it. Who uses an Atari home computer today? Plenty of other such cases.

(Even look at lower end video. The 5D3 didn't really make much of a splash compared to the 5D2 among movie-makes (my impression anyway) until Magic Lantern unlocked a lot more quality. it may have been coincidence but I couldn't help but notice that the 5D3 price had slumped quite a lot and then ML RAW came out for it and the price shot back up to full list for quite some time again. They went into market segmentation, protection mode instead of full steam ahead domination mode.)

I hope the rumor is for real and that they will finally have improved low ISO DR too (even bigger to me than upping the MP count). If it could still handle 1080p ML RAW, add in nice compressed in cam 4k (and please, please turn off the NR and smoothing digic so loves to do! canon loves to give this crisp details on contrasty edges and then give a plastic look to everything else with their in cam processing), bump the MP count, get exmor-like DR and maintain 6fps man that would be one awesome camera. And they certainly have, IMO, the nicest lens line-up around to go with it. They also need to allow for cropped modes so when shooting distance limited stuff to take advantage of the reach of the MP bump you don't waste so much storage on the edges, that might also allow for even higher fps (although >6fps FF mirror boxes do start to add to cost it's true, so hard to say about fps).


Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: Orangutan on March 26, 2014, 05:08:08 PM

...I would have thought there's credibility in owning the top end of the market.

I don't disagree. I think it's just a question of what that credibility might be worth...especially during difficult economic times.

How many people buy DSLRs based on the top-end?  How many care what name plate is on the big white lenses and brick-like bodies at sporting events?  How many bought Canon equipment because they saw Art Wolfe on TV?  A few maybe, but not many.  More likely the choice is made based on what "celebrities" pitch, and and what their friends shoot.  Mercedes Benz could not expect much from the name if they got into the budget car market.
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: Orangutan on March 26, 2014, 05:14:20 PM
The reason they haven't come out with the thing you personally want is that they don't have to.  They will produce new products when the market demands them.  Until then, they'll milk (MILC?) the R&D they already have invested in the current line.
Granted the camera business is much different so this is maybe slightly sketchy of a comparison, but such an attitude isn't always the best for a company. Look at Atari, the engineers wanted them to release an advanced new computer with GUI and mouse and multi-tasking and crazy level graphics and audio but the management said they hadn't finished milking the old 8bit line yet and saw no point in it. Who uses an Atari home computer today? Plenty of other such cases.

Canon is a large, diversified company with a lot of R&D and clever management.  I would be surprised if they don't have the basic tech available when the need (==strong market pressure) arises.  If some other company starts out-competing the 5D3 and 1DX, I am confident that Canon can match their products in a year or less.

The fact that Canon HAS not put advanced tech in the cameras does not mean they CAN not do so.
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: Don Haines on March 26, 2014, 05:29:37 PM

...I would have thought there's credibility in owning the top end of the market.

I don't disagree. I think it's just a question of what that credibility might be worth...especially during difficult economic times.

How many people buy DSLRs based on the top-end?  How many care what name plate is on the big white lenses and brick-like bodies at sporting events?  How many bought Canon equipment because they saw Art Wolfe on TV?  A few maybe, but not many.  More likely the choice is made based on what "celebrities" pitch, and and what their friends shoot.  Mercedes Benz could not expect much from the name if they got into the budget car market.
In the canon world, it's the T3i that's really sells, followed by the T5i, the 70D, the 6D, the 5D3, and the 1DX pulling up the rear for sales..... Without an exception, lower priced models outsell higher price models.... Obviously price is the major factor...

Most will be saying "Who is Art Wolfe". Some will remember Ashton Kutcher was in a Camera commercial, but most won't remember what brand he was plugging..... It's kind of like car adds.... They all say the same thing and after a while they all blend in together....

Friends are a bigger influence.
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: ecka on March 26, 2014, 06:20:23 PM
I would expect a 88.4MP 4K FF sensor (11520x7680)
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: neuroanatomist on March 26, 2014, 06:30:15 PM
Friends are a bigger influence.

Price and availability are probably bigger still.
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: Don Haines on March 26, 2014, 06:43:47 PM
Friends are a bigger influence.

Price and availability are probably bigger still.

Which is why I said that price is the major factor....

But you are right about availability, the lower cameras can be bought almost anywhere... You see them in electronics stores, department stores, I've even seen rebels for sale in a grocery store and in small town general stores.  I live near Ottawa, the Capitol city of Canada with over a million people, and if I wanted a 1DX I would have to order it in because nobody stocks them.
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: dslrdummy on March 26, 2014, 07:35:34 PM

[....]

A perfect second camera will be the A7r ...which means the waiting's theoretically over..once I have it, no matter how good the rumored megapixel offering will be, I wont buy another camera for at least three years. The best thing about mirror less is that we are not tied to one brand anymore. I can walk into a shop today and get a camera that will fit my TS24...36mp and that lens sounds very tempting to me!

Why are we waiting so long for Canons megapixel offering?


As you point out, the only people who have to wait are brand loyalists.  Obviously some people have to be, but those who don't might as well do what some of us have done and supplement our Canon bodies with an A7r.  I love mine, both with its superb native primes and my Canon EF lenses (plus a few old manual focus lenses) - so much so that I'm not sure which is my second camera....
I'm not necessarily a brand loyalist but the economic reality is that I have invested in Canon and to change to a completely incompatible brand now isn't feasible for me. I have looked closely at the A7r for that reason but there seem to be three big question marks - light leak, AF performance and IQ when using an EF adaptor. You clearly love your A7r but what is your experience with these issues if you don't mind me asking?
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: tron on March 26, 2014, 07:36:45 PM
Northlightttttttttt?  This is a CR0 rumor. Next please  :)
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: moreorless on March 26, 2014, 09:13:21 PM
I think the A7r really shows again that resolution sells best when its relatively cheap, the same with the D800 and the 5D2 before it. The biggest part of the market here is I'd say amateur landscape shooters but even pro's potentially moving from MF are often doing so due to price.

In Sony's case I think you can argue that the price for the whole system isn't actually that low given that the lenses seem rather overpriced(especially the 35mm F/2.8 which seems like it should be a £200 lens not a £750 one) but if your adapting Canon that's obviously not an issue.
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: RGF on March 26, 2014, 10:02:48 PM
I would expect a 44.2MP 4K FF sensor (11520x7680)

Curious - how did you get that sensor size?

Isn't 4k twice 1080 which is 1920 x 1080 so twice would be 3820 x 2160?
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: Lawliet on March 26, 2014, 10:19:44 PM
I have looked closely at the A7r for that reason but there seem to be three big question marks - light leak, AF performance and IQ when using an EF adaptor.

The light leak story is imho overblown, thats unless you regularly shoot with dense ND filters. Mileage varies with lens choice - how tight are the tolerances of the mount and how susceptible to stray light effects is the lens as such?

IQ-wise the adapter contains no optics, its just an extension tube. While the additional tolerances introduced by the second mount are measurable most of the time just about every other source of error will dominate.

AF? I got the A7r for its manual focusing facilities. :)
Esp with the TS-E lenses AF is...well...you'd be waiting for eternity. With native lenses its ok, with promising developments(see a6k), adapted its more a proof of concept to me.
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: tron on March 26, 2014, 10:31:44 PM
I would expect a 44.2MP 4K FF sensor (11520x7680)
Can't you even multiply ?  :o

11520x7680 = 88473600 = 88.4MP
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: sagittariansrock on March 26, 2014, 11:31:03 PM
Why are we waiting so long for Canons megapixel offering? Personally I just don't think their technology is there yet... ( but I would love to be wrong! )

Again, the question is not whether they have or don't have the tech, it's whether Canon's number crunchers think it will be profitable.  The sales of the D800 and A7R have been lackluster, so what's the point of doing a studio/landscape camera that won't make you a healthy profit?  Don't get me wrong: I'm glad the D800 and A7R are out there to push the tech and increase user demand.  I just believe that Canon uses smart business strategy: they make products that sell profitably.


I am pretty sure if and when Canon have fully developed a marketable high-megapixel sensor, they won't let D800/E and A7r sales deter them from putting it in a camera and putting it out there. If the market for it doesn't exist, Canon PR will make sure to create one.
By the way, I have heard 5DIII sales Me_Me_Me D800 sales, makes sense, but do you know for a fact that D800 sales have been lackluster?
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: Orangutan on March 26, 2014, 11:48:37 PM
If the market for it doesn't exist, Canon PR will make sure to create one.
Your opinion of Canon marketing is higher than mine.   :D

Quote
By the way, I have heard 5DIII sales Me_Me_Me D800 sales, makes sense, but do you know for a fact that D800 sales have been lackluster?
Of course, true sales numbers are proprietary, so we can't be sure.  At least in the US, we can get a little help from Amazon.com.

D800: #17 in Camera & Photo > Digital SLRs
D800E:  #74 in Camera & Photo > Digital SLRs

5D3: #9 in Camera & Photo > Digital SLRs
5D3 kit (w/24-105): #13

So both distribution versions of the 5D3 are significantly higher than the D800 (which doesn't appear to have a kit version)

Lackluster is certainly relative, but if you consider these two to be direct competitors (as many seem to), the less-expensive D800, with better sensor, is selling at a significantly slower rate than the more expensive 5D3.   If I'm Canon, I'm happy about this; if I'm Nikon, I'm not happy about this.  I'd call that lackluster.






Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: Aglet on March 27, 2014, 01:28:21 AM
I think Canon chose to put out a 5d3 all-rounder instead of a class-leading hi-MP FF body like the d800 partly because they really don't yet have the ability to produce something like that 36MP sensor.  You can't put out a product for bragging rights if you don't qualify.

The 5d3 fills the bill for those who asked for such, for those who wanted more resolution and cleaner, more malleable files the D800 was available.

As far as making a niche product for bragging rights, TSE 17mm, anyone?..
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: sanj on March 27, 2014, 01:45:39 AM
This actually makes sense to me, although I've been skeptical about Canon's "need" to release a high megapixel full frame camera.

I'll go back to a prediction I make quite a while back – I can see Canon releasing a "5D HD" that offers a pixel density somewhere in the same neighborhood as the 7D (46 mp), perhaps a little less. Same body, same basic functionality (with a slower frame rate likely) just a new sensor and maybe a little faster processor.

It would give customers a choice, but keep their production costs down since many of the components could be shared by both bodies.  Canon has see the D800 sales figures, so they know that high megapixels aren't in huge demand, but they probably also know there is a small subset of customers that will pay a premium for more resolution. Give them what they want, but keep the production costs down.

hi, im not sure where you get your viewpoint. i shoot advertising images and i do use a 5dmk3, but the files are almost always on the edge of usability. if there is cropping, or shadows pulled up(or sky recovered) the canon is terrible. the only reason i haven't changed systems is that i shoot with a very shallow dof and the canon has the best lenses for this.
I have tested the d800e and i have brought a sony a7r and in every test i have done with the cameras together the sony sensor absolutely eats the canon. i find the latitude of the nikon and sony cameras closer to my p65+ (but obvious less res) but even better with the darks getting pulled up.
i don't know about the amateur market, but a large promotion of the professional advertising market (not the editorial or sports) has moved to the nikon d800e from the canon and even a lot have dropped medium format for nikon. i could list a dozen photographers in the top of their fields in the world now shooting with nikon. and thats just out of the few advertising photographers i know personally.

im not saying the nikon is the best for usability- the canon has the best interface, lenses and AF, but the file itself is very disappointing. i say this from a lot of canon file experience (I've shot at least 400,000 files with the 5dmk3 in the last few years). the 5dmk3 is a bit of a love hate camera for me..

i really hope canon answers with a better file (latitude wise)- higher MP (which is badly needed for my market) so i can throw away slow, difficult medium format and only need one camera for everything i shoot.

paul

I know 4 personally. And I do not know many photographers...
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: sanj on March 27, 2014, 01:47:33 AM
a large promotion of the professional advertising market..

How big is that market?  Is it big enough to drive Canon's R&D and marketing strategy?  Maybe Canon is willing to let that market go (for a while) to avoid making a costly mistake.

i guess they could, but i would have thought theres credibility in owning the top end of the market. the local dealer over here also says the d800 is really well. but maybe you are right?
but i think canon would be silly if they thought like that. its the resin that car manufactures have a limited run sports car- to set their place in the market. i can't see canon just letting the D800e be the best camera on the market.
and they can sell these at a lot higher cost- i am not that cost driven - nor any of the guys i mentioned early. sure we like saving money, but the features of the camera to make life easier is more important. cameras are one the cheapest part of our kits- we didn't ask for it to be this way, but it makes it easy to have multiple bodies etc. the original 1ds cost me 15k nod (12k usd) and it paid for itself on one job. happy to pay this much again for a "niche" market version of a canon camera that can answer the d800.
i heard a while back there was 9000 professional photographers in the UK alone- not sure if this figure is right, but i wouldn't be surprised. even if these people didn't really need the megapixels- i guarantee they would not be able to help them selves if there was a higher megapixel camera available. i can see that even wedding photographers could do with more megapixels- to allow for cropping and different formats. pixel binning makes for better files as well when downsized.

paul

I thought so too...
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: sanj on March 27, 2014, 03:06:00 AM

...I would have thought there's credibility in owning the top end of the market.

I don't disagree. I think it's just a question of what that credibility might be worth...especially during difficult economic times.

How many people buy DSLRs based on the top-end?  How many care what name plate is on the big white lenses and brick-like bodies at sporting events?  How many bought Canon equipment because they saw Art Wolfe on TV?  A few maybe, but not many.  More likely the choice is made based on what "celebrities" pitch, and and what their friends shoot.  Mercedes Benz could not expect much from the name if they got into the budget car market.

I would think the opposite! A mid priced Merc would sell well IMHO.
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: Lawliet on March 27, 2014, 03:32:50 AM
I would think the opposite! A mid priced Merc would sell well IMHO.

But only if they
a) manage to keep the level of quality&performance up despite the lower price, otherwise expect backlash.
b) keep the air of exclusivity&luxury that makes the car covetable in the first place.
..think NEX in Hasselblad clothing, though the current state of affairs in that department could be worse.

Something to keep in mind about the 5D800-story: is it just a question of sensor resolution? Or rather a matter of being in an existing ecosystem, or the added effort that has to be made to make actual use of the potential resolution? And then there is the field of pictures in motion, if thats even part of your job description Canon wins more or less by default.
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: ecka on March 27, 2014, 05:10:58 AM
I would expect a 44.2MP 4K FF sensor (11520x7680)
Can't you even multiply ?  :o

11520x7680 = 88473600 = 88.4MP

Yes, it's 88.4, thank you. It was ~03:00 in the morning when I was typing that :).
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: ecka on March 27, 2014, 05:16:07 AM
I would expect a 44.2MP 4K FF sensor (11520x7680)

Curious - how did you get that sensor size?

Isn't 4k twice 1080 which is 1920 x 1080 so twice would be 3820 x 2160?

I'm sorry, it is 88.4MP, my mistake :).
1920*3=5760 which is exactly what 5D3 got.
3840*3=11520
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: sagittariansrock on March 27, 2014, 05:23:19 AM
These threads always polarize the forum community, but I do think there is a market for high-resolution sensors. And I believe Canon is aware of this, and are trying to develop such a system (Zeiss mentions the word "high-resolution sensors" multiple times in their Otus announcement, and they cater to both Canon and Nikon). However, given Canon's recent trend towards bringing out the absolute top products in their class, it is more than likely that they are spending the extra time and effort to create something great rather than settling for good. After all, with good sales on their existing products they don't need to push out something before it's ready.
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: CarlTN on March 27, 2014, 05:29:15 AM
This actually makes sense to me, although I've been skeptical about Canon's "need" to release a high megapixel full frame camera.

I'll go back to a prediction I make quite a while back – I can see Canon releasing a "5D HD" that offers a pixel density somewhere in the same neighborhood as the 7D (46 mp), perhaps a little less. Same body, same basic functionality (with a slower frame rate likely) just a new sensor and maybe a little faster processor.

It would give customers a choice, but keep their production costs down since many of the components could be shared by both bodies.  Canon has seen the D800 sales figures, so they know that high megapixels aren't in huge demand, but they probably also know there is a small subset of customers that will pay a premium for more resolution. Give them what they want, but keep the production costs down.

Even in the face of this rumor which is contrary to some of your predictions, you're still falling back on them?  The main thing I notice in this rumor, is that the "3D" will have 4k video capability.  That is not "the same basic functionality" as a 5D3.  This model is obviously intended to be upmarket from the 5D3.  Slower frame rates for stills, no doubt...but it's going to be able to do a lot more video-wise.
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: Lawliet on March 27, 2014, 06:46:52 AM

1920*3=5760 which is exactly what 5D3 got.
3840*3=11520

That would be a 2:1 aspect ratio, not much love here. And It would require odd blending/skipping patterns to capture standard video. Not much love either.

The first fitting, in tradition of the 5760px of the 5D3, resolution would be 1920*2*2 - to get full RGB for 4k-video and 39.3MP stills. going for the slightly larger 4096 flavor would net you 44.7MP. Current OTS cores can handle that resolution up to about 30fps; in a dual config. that should work even with continuous AF. no line skipping also implies less moire and less noise at higher ISOs. Dual photodiodes allow for higher low ISO DR. Who could argue against such a machine?
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: Corvi on March 27, 2014, 08:35:51 AM
Ha, id much rather have that shopped 40/1.2 lens :P
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: mkabi on March 27, 2014, 09:16:05 AM
This actually makes sense to me, although I've been skeptical about Canon's "need" to release a high megapixel full frame camera.

I'll go back to a prediction I make quite a while back – I can see Canon releasing a "5D HD" that offers a pixel density somewhere in the same neighborhood as the 7D (46 mp), perhaps a little less. Same body, same basic functionality (with a slower frame rate likely) just a new sensor and maybe a little faster processor.

It would give customers a choice, but keep their production costs down since many of the components could be shared by both bodies.  Canon has seen the D800 sales figures, so they know that high megapixels aren't in huge demand, but they probably also know there is a small subset of customers that will pay a premium for more resolution. Give them what they want, but keep the production costs down.

Even in the face of this rumor which is contrary to some of your predictions, you're still falling back on them?  The main thing I notice in this rumor, is that the "3D" will have 4k video capability.  That is not "the same basic functionality" as a 5D3.  This model is obviously intended to be upmarket from the 5D3.  Slower frame rates for stills, no doubt...but it's going to be able to do a lot more video-wise.

I don`t think they will name it `3D`because its misleading... people will think that it can do 3D video...
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: transpo1 on March 27, 2014, 11:05:03 AM
I would expect a 44.2MP 4K FF sensor (11520x7680)

Curious - how did you get that sensor size?

Isn't 4k twice 1080 which is 1920 x 1080 so twice would be 3820 x 2160?

And true cinema 4K would be 4096 x 2160, which is what the 1DC outputs...as opposed to Ultra HD, which is 3840×2160 (and is what the Blackmagic Production Camera outputs).
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: RGF on March 27, 2014, 11:51:21 AM
These threads always polarize the forum community, but I do think there is a market for high-resolution sensors. And I believe Canon is aware of this, and are trying to develop such a system (Zeiss mentions the word "high-resolution sensors" multiple times in their Otus announcement, and they cater to both Canon and Nikon). However, given Canon's recent trend towards bringing out the absolute top products in their class, it is more than likely that they are spending the extra time and effort to create something great rather than settling for good. After all, with good sales on their existing products they don't need to push out something before it's ready.

New systems will double, if not triple, in price.  I guess I could afford them, if I don't travel (or eat)  ;D
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: ecka on March 27, 2014, 12:03:05 PM

1920*3=5760 which is exactly what 5D3 got.
3840*3=11520

That would be a 2:1 aspect ratio, not much love here. And It would require odd blending/skipping patterns to capture standard video. Not much love either.

The first fitting, in tradition of the 5760px of the 5D3, resolution would be 1920*2*2 - to get full RGB for 4k-video and 39.3MP stills. going for the slightly larger 4096 flavor would net you 44.7MP. Current OTS cores can handle that resolution up to about 30fps; in a dual config. that should work even with continuous AF. no line skipping also implies less moire and less noise at higher ISOs. Dual photodiodes allow for higher low ISO DR. Who could argue against such a machine?

Yes, 39.3MP would be nice for 3840*2 and 1920*2*2 (or 1920*2 crop mode). I just have this feeling, that Canon wants to bring something exclusive to the market. Something the competition can't match any time soon.
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: JohnDizzo15 on March 27, 2014, 01:56:34 PM
Dual Pixel, hybrid viewfinder (much like the Fuji implementation + the EVF features of the XT1), touch screen, and they could keep the 6D sensor. I would gladly pay 3500-4000 for that right now.
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: tron on March 27, 2014, 02:00:32 PM
This actually makes sense to me, although I've been skeptical about Canon's "need" to release a high megapixel full frame camera.

I'll go back to a prediction I make quite a while back – I can see Canon releasing a "5D HD" that offers a pixel density somewhere in the same neighborhood as the 7D (46 mp), perhaps a little less. Same body, same basic functionality (with a slower frame rate likely) just a new sensor and maybe a little faster processor.

It would give customers a choice, but keep their production costs down since many of the components could be shared by both bodies.  Canon has seen the D800 sales figures, so they know that high megapixels aren't in huge demand, but they probably also know there is a small subset of customers that will pay a premium for more resolution. Give them what they want, but keep the production costs down.

Even in the face of this rumor which is contrary to some of your predictions, you're still falling back on them?  The main thing I notice in this rumor, is that the "3D" will have 4k video capability.  That is not "the same basic functionality" as a 5D3.  This model is obviously intended to be upmarket from the 5D3.  Slower frame rates for stills, no doubt...but it's going to be able to do a lot more video-wise.

I don`t think they will name it `3D`because its misleading... people will think that it can do 3D video...
Oh but it will! It will just be the 3DsMkIV turbo gti-plus model  ;D
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: sdsr on March 27, 2014, 03:55:59 PM

As you point out, the only people who have to wait are brand loyalists.  Obviously some people have to be, but those who don't might as well do what some of us have done and supplement our Canon bodies with an A7r.  I love mine, both with its superb native primes and my Canon EF lenses (plus a few old manual focus lenses) - so much so that I'm not sure which is my second camera....

I'm not necessarily a brand loyalist but the economic reality is that I have invested in Canon and to change to a completely incompatible brand now isn't feasible for me. I have looked closely at the A7r for that reason but there seem to be three big question marks - light leak, AF performance and IQ when using an EF adaptor. You clearly love your A7r but what is your experience with these issues if you don't mind me asking?

I don't mind at all. 

1. It's not a "completely incompatible" system; they overlap.  Whether they overlap enough for your purposes I can't say, of course.  I would also say that for many people a complete switch to Sony wouldn't be sensible or desirable, and that I have no intention of doing so.  For me it's a marvelous adjunct which, in some situations, would be my go-to camera - at least until Canon comes up with a close substitute (high resolution, mirrorless, no loss of EF performance, etc. - preferably with IBIS...).   

2. The light leak applies under very limited circumstances, apparently (very long exposures in near-total darkness but with a bright light hitting part of the lens mount), and doesn't only apply to Sony cameras.  Check out Roger Cicala's blog post on the subject at lensrentals.  I never shoot in such conditions, so it's simply not an issue for me (or, I suspect, for 99.9% of people 99.9% of the time).  The shutter-shock problem is far more real (see below).

3.  AF performance with EF lenses is unquestionably inferior in terms of speed - it's not *that* slow, but if you're used to the near-instantaneous focusing you get with the best Canon lens/body combinations it will seem slow (rather comical too - it ambles towards the subject, pauses, goes a bit beyond and then comes back); and it's slow compared to native FE lenses, of course.  But it's probably not inferior in terms of accuracy; in some respects it's superior: one benefit of a mirrorless body is that with on-sensor focusing there's no need to worry about back/front focusing.  If you plan to use it to photograph things that don't move, it's not an issue.  But don't even consider it if you want to photograph sports, children running around, herons-catching-fish, etc. and rely on AF to do so.

4.  As for IQ, I've used these EF lenses: 24-105L, 28mm 2.8 IS, 40mm, 85mm 1.8, 100 L (no AF with this, but the other electronic connections work) and 70-200 f4 IS.  I haven't performed anything resembling a scientific comparison of these lenses on the A7R vs 5DIII or 6D, but I feel confident in saying that not only is the image quality not inferior on the Sony body it's probably superior (I was shocked by the superb image quality I was able to get from the 85mm 1.8 when I first attached it). 

At the time I decided to buy an A7R I had used one exclusively with Canon lenses - it was because the results were so good that I wanted one, and it was not until I had owned it for a while that I bought the two native FE primes; they're superb too, especially the remarkable 55mm 1.8. 

Having said all that, there may well be Canon lenses that don't work as well on the two Sony A7s - I have no first hand knowledge one way or another - but based on what I've read the main problems are with wide angle Leica lenses due to a design that simply doesn't apply to Canon lenses.  I would also add that if you want to use old Canon MF lenses, it's far easier to manually focus on a mirrorless camera (thanks to magnification and focus peaking) than it is on any dslr, especially if you use wide apertures; and Sony's focus peaking and magnification work at least as well as anyone else's.

5.  One flaw you didn't mention is the much-discussed shutter-shock.  This is real, and, in my experience, shows up if your shutter speed is 1/100-1/125, regardless of the lens (apparently it's worse if you use a tripod, but I don't and thus can't comment).  It doesn't seem to be a problem at other speeds, including slower speeds (though you may encounter the usual too-slow-shutter problems if you're not using a lens with IS; IS has no effect on shutter-shock, of course); I've taken plenty of sharp photos at 1/60 (a speed these cameras seem inordinately fond of if you let them decide the shutter speed).  If you avoid 1/100-1/125 you'll be fine.

I hope some of this helps.  Far more competent/savvy/knowledgeable people than I have written about all of this, though, so don't rely  too much on what I've written!
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: sagittariansrock on March 27, 2014, 04:28:45 PM
These threads always polarize the forum community, but I do think there is a market for high-resolution sensors. And I believe Canon is aware of this, and are trying to develop such a system (Zeiss mentions the word "high-resolution sensors" multiple times in their Otus announcement, and they cater to both Canon and Nikon). However, given Canon's recent trend towards bringing out the absolute top products in their class, it is more than likely that they are spending the extra time and effort to create something great rather than settling for good. After all, with good sales on their existing products they don't need to push out something before it's ready.

New systems will double, if not triple, in price.  I guess I could afford them, if I don't travel (or eat)  ;D

Yup. Pretty much.
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: eml58 on March 27, 2014, 07:16:53 PM
Always interesting to see what people would like in a new camera body, video, small size, etc etc.

For myself I can't see Canon wanting to compete with the likes of Phase One, Mamiya & Haselblad, even with the new 50MP CMOS Sensor developed by Sony, this is a small and crowded enough market.

What I could see Canon developing would be something +/- 40MP, that can utilise their current AF system (61 Point), possibly something in the order of 4/5 fps.

I can't comment on video because I'm one of those that still feels if you want video, buy a video camera.

The ONLY issues I see with Phase One IQ280 is iso max at 800, .75 fps and what amounts to a single centre AF point (they do have 3 small off set from centre points but they are pretty well useless) but for anyone to argue against the IQ of the Files is ridiculous, as a Photographer who wants less then the best IQ ?? The issue for me (excluding price of course) with the Phase One, is usability in my chosen field of Photography, Wildlife, the IQ 280 is unbeatable today in portrait, landscape, still life, the IQ250 goes someway to resolving for the "action" photographer some of these issues, better ISO performance out to 6400, 1.5 fps, both systems on Phase One with a Leaf Shutter Lens give you synced flash @ 1/1600th, impossible in todays dslr cameras and non leaf shutter lenses.

If Canon can produce a sensor of +/- 40MP, current AF system, 4-6 fps, resolve the issues current with banding in the shadows (sorry, Canon's sensors suck in this area compared to Nikon let alone a Phase One system), then I believe there's a real Market for this type of Camera, and Nikon/Sony are proving that right now with their D800/D800E & a7r, unlike many on CR I don't agree that these Cameras are selling poorly, I think they sell to People that want this type of Camera (i.e.. Larger Sensor, better Files), not the Mass Market.

Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: wickidwombat on March 27, 2014, 07:18:43 PM
This actually makes sense to me, although I've been skeptical about Canon's "need" to release a high megapixel full frame camera.

I'll go back to a prediction I make quite a while back – I can see Canon releasing a "5D HD" that offers a pixel density somewhere in the same neighborhood as the 7D (46 mp), perhaps a little less. Same body, same basic functionality (with a slower frame rate likely) just a new sensor and maybe a little faster processor.

It would give customers a choice, but keep their production costs down since many of the components could be shared by both bodies.  Canon has seen the D800 sales figures, so they know that high megapixels aren't in huge demand, but they probably also know there is a small subset of customers that will pay a premium for more resolution. Give them what they want, but keep the production costs down.

Even in the face of this rumor which is contrary to some of your predictions, you're still falling back on them?  The main thing I notice in this rumor, is that the "3D" will have 4k video capability.  That is not "the same basic functionality" as a 5D3.  This model is obviously intended to be upmarket from the 5D3.  Slower frame rates for stills, no doubt...but it's going to be able to do a lot more video-wise.

I don`t think they will name it `3D`because its misleading... people will think that it can do 3D video...

Really? I know people in general are pretty stupid but THAT stupid?...
dunno
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: Don Haines on March 27, 2014, 07:26:37 PM
I'd like to see quad-pixel technology come out... with a sensor where you can bin all four sub-pixels together and have a 10Megapixel FF sensor with kick-ass low light capacity or access the sub-pixels and have a 40Megapixel high resolution sensor....
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: Don Haines on March 27, 2014, 07:27:51 PM
This actually makes sense to me, although I've been skeptical about Canon's "need" to release a high megapixel full frame camera.

I'll go back to a prediction I make quite a while back – I can see Canon releasing a "5D HD" that offers a pixel density somewhere in the same neighborhood as the 7D (46 mp), perhaps a little less. Same body, same basic functionality (with a slower frame rate likely) just a new sensor and maybe a little faster processor.

It would give customers a choice, but keep their production costs down since many of the components could be shared by both bodies.  Canon has seen the D800 sales figures, so they know that high megapixels aren't in huge demand, but they probably also know there is a small subset of customers that will pay a premium for more resolution. Give them what they want, but keep the production costs down.

Even in the face of this rumor which is contrary to some of your predictions, you're still falling back on them?  The main thing I notice in this rumor, is that the "3D" will have 4k video capability.  That is not "the same basic functionality" as a 5D3.  This model is obviously intended to be upmarket from the 5D3.  Slower frame rates for stills, no doubt...but it's going to be able to do a lot more video-wise.

I don`t think they will name it `3D`because its misleading... people will think that it can do 3D video...

Really? I know people in general are pretty stupid but THAT stupid?...
dunno

Why do you think there is no 2D? Sales would be flat :)
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: tron on March 27, 2014, 07:31:11 PM
I have looked closely at the A7r for that reason but there seem to be three big question marks - light leak, AF performance and IQ when using an EF adaptor.
Add to them the shutter vibration issue and the raw files with lossy compression...
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: dslrdummy on March 27, 2014, 08:10:30 PM

As you point out, the only people who have to wait are brand loyalists.  Obviously some people have to be, but those who don't might as well do what some of us have done and supplement our Canon bodies with an A7r.  I love mine, both with its superb native primes and my Canon EF lenses (plus a few old manual focus lenses) - so much so that I'm not sure which is my second camera....

I'm not necessarily a brand loyalist but the economic reality is that I have invested in Canon and to change to a completely incompatible brand now isn't feasible for me. I have looked closely at the A7r for that reason but there seem to be three big question marks - light leak, AF performance and IQ when using an EF adaptor. You clearly love your A7r but what is your experience with these issues if you don't mind me asking?

I don't mind at all. 

1. It's not a "completely incompatible" system; they overlap.  Whether they overlap enough for your purposes I can't say, of course.  I would also say that for many people a complete switch to Sony wouldn't be sensible or desirable, and that I have no intention of doing so.  For me it's a marvelous adjunct which, in some situations, would be my go-to camera - at least until Canon comes up with a close substitute (high resolution, mirrorless, no loss of EF performance, etc. - preferably with IBIS...).   

2. The light leak applies under very limited circumstances, apparently (very long exposures in near-total darkness but with a bright light hitting part of the lens mount), and doesn't only apply to Sony cameras.  Check out Roger Cicala's blog post on the subject at lensrentals.  I never shoot in such conditions, so it's simply not an issue for me (or, I suspect, for 99.9% of people 99.9% of the time).  The shutter-shock problem is far more real (see below).

3.  AF performance with EF lenses is unquestionably inferior in terms of speed - it's not *that* slow, but if you're used to the near-instantaneous focusing you get with the best Canon lens/body combinations it will seem slow (rather comical too - it ambles towards the subject, pauses, goes a bit beyond and then comes back); and it's slow compared to native FE lenses, of course.  But it's probably not inferior in terms of accuracy; in some respects it's superior: one benefit of a mirrorless body is that with on-sensor focusing there's no need to worry about back/front focusing.  If you plan to use it to photograph things that don't move, it's not an issue.  But don't even consider it if you want to photograph sports, children running around, herons-catching-fish, etc. and rely on AF to do so.

4.  As for IQ, I've used these EF lenses: 24-105L, 28mm 2.8 IS, 40mm, 85mm 1.8, 100 L (no AF with this, but the other electronic connections work) and 70-200 f4 IS.  I haven't performed anything resembling a scientific comparison of these lenses on the A7R vs 5DIII or 6D, but I feel confident in saying that not only is the image quality not inferior on the Sony body it's probably superior (I was shocked by the superb image quality I was able to get from the 85mm 1.8 when I first attached it). 

At the time I decided to buy an A7R I had used one exclusively with Canon lenses - it was because the results were so good that I wanted one, and it was not until I had owned it for a while that I bought the two native FE primes; they're superb too, especially the remarkable 55mm 1.8. 

Having said all that, there may well be Canon lenses that don't work as well on the two Sony A7s - I have no first hand knowledge one way or another - but based on what I've read the main problems are with wide angle Leica lenses due to a design that simply doesn't apply to Canon lenses.  I would also add that if you want to use old Canon MF lenses, it's far easier to manually focus on a mirrorless camera (thanks to magnification and focus peaking) than it is on any dslr, especially if you use wide apertures; and Sony's focus peaking and magnification work at least as well as anyone else's.

5.  One flaw you didn't mention is the much-discussed shutter-shock.  This is real, and, in my experience, shows up if your shutter speed is 1/100-1/125, regardless of the lens (apparently it's worse if you use a tripod, but I don't and thus can't comment).  It doesn't seem to be a problem at other speeds, including slower speeds (though you may encounter the usual too-slow-shutter problems if you're not using a lens with IS; IS has no effect on shutter-shock, of course); I've taken plenty of sharp photos at 1/60 (a speed these cameras seem inordinately fond of if you let them decide the shutter speed).  If you avoid 1/100-1/125 you'll be fine.

I hope some of this helps.  Far more competent/savvy/knowledgeable people than I have written about all of this, though, so don't rely  too much on what I've written!
That's very helpful, many thanks for taking the time.
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: mkabi on March 27, 2014, 08:38:32 PM
This actually makes sense to me, although I've been skeptical about Canon's "need" to release a high megapixel full frame camera.

I'll go back to a prediction I make quite a while back – I can see Canon releasing a "5D HD" that offers a pixel density somewhere in the same neighborhood as the 7D (46 mp), perhaps a little less. Same body, same basic functionality (with a slower frame rate likely) just a new sensor and maybe a little faster processor.

It would give customers a choice, but keep their production costs down since many of the components could be shared by both bodies.  Canon has seen the D800 sales figures, so they know that high megapixels aren't in huge demand, but they probably also know there is a small subset of customers that will pay a premium for more resolution. Give them what they want, but keep the production costs down.

Even in the face of this rumor which is contrary to some of your predictions, you're still falling back on them?  The main thing I notice in this rumor, is that the "3D" will have 4k video capability.  That is not "the same basic functionality" as a 5D3.  This model is obviously intended to be upmarket from the 5D3.  Slower frame rates for stills, no doubt...but it's going to be able to do a lot more video-wise.

I don`t think they will name it `3D`because its misleading... people will think that it can do 3D video...

Really? I know people in general are pretty stupid but THAT stupid?...
dunno

Well, think about it... how would you explain to a friend who doesn`t know anything about DSLRs?

Sample conversation (the conversation doesn't have to go this particular way... just hypothetically):

You: Yo Canon is releasing the 3D... or... did you check out the new Canon 3D?
Friend: What is a Canon 3D?
You: Well, its a DSLR camera that shoots both stills and video
Friend: Does it do 3D video?
You: Ummmm... no....
Friend: Then why call it 3D?
You: **Shrug** Internal conversation with your own self - I knew they shouldn't have called it the 3D... stupid... stupid... stupid...
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: atkinsonphoto on March 27, 2014, 09:11:17 PM
Just picked up the new 4D from the future store. Timespace will never look the same again. It's got slo-time exposure and fast forward frame rates of 10 seconds+. AF connects seamlessly to my neck chip/eye link/contact lens. The contact is a 12-400mm L IS-TS (Time Stablization). What a multiverse monster!
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: JohnDizzo15 on March 27, 2014, 09:29:32 PM
I'd like to see quad-pixel technology come out... with a sensor where you can bin all four sub-pixels together and have a 10Megapixel FF sensor with kick-ass low light capacity or access the sub-pixels and have a 40Megapixel high resolution sensor....

Intriguing
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: Lawliet on March 27, 2014, 11:00:38 PM
I'd like to see quad-pixel technology come out... with a sensor where you can bin all four sub-pixels together and have a 10Megapixel FF sensor with kick-ass low light capacity or access the sub-pixels and have a 40Megapixel high resolution sensor....

Phase One beat you on that idea!  :P
Admitted, going from ISO800 to ISO3200 that way won't get anybody from FF/APS-C-Land excited, but the idea is there.
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: wickidwombat on March 27, 2014, 11:19:51 PM
This actually makes sense to me, although I've been skeptical about Canon's "need" to release a high megapixel full frame camera.

I'll go back to a prediction I make quite a while back – I can see Canon releasing a "5D HD" that offers a pixel density somewhere in the same neighborhood as the 7D (46 mp), perhaps a little less. Same body, same basic functionality (with a slower frame rate likely) just a new sensor and maybe a little faster processor.

It would give customers a choice, but keep their production costs down since many of the components could be shared by both bodies.  Canon has seen the D800 sales figures, so they know that high megapixels aren't in huge demand, but they probably also know there is a small subset of customers that will pay a premium for more resolution. Give them what they want, but keep the production costs down.

Even in the face of this rumor which is contrary to some of your predictions, you're still falling back on them?  The main thing I notice in this rumor, is that the "3D" will have 4k video capability.  That is not "the same basic functionality" as a 5D3.  This model is obviously intended to be upmarket from the 5D3.  Slower frame rates for stills, no doubt...but it's going to be able to do a lot more video-wise.

I don`t think they will name it `3D`because its misleading... people will think that it can do 3D video...

Really? I know people in general are pretty stupid but THAT stupid?...
dunno

Well, think about it... how would you explain to a friend who doesn`t know anything about DSLRs?

Sample conversation (the conversation doesn't have to go this particular way... just hypothetically):

You: Yo Canon is releasing the 3D... or... did you check out the new Canon 3D?
Friend: What is a Canon 3D?
You: Well, its a DSLR camera that shoots both stills and video
Friend: Does it do 3D video?
You: Ummmm... no....
Friend: Then why call it 3D?
You: **Shrug** Internal conversation with your own self - I knew they shouldn't have called it the 3D... stupid... stupid... stupid...

you should give yourself an uppercut for having that conversation with someone that knows nothing about cameras in the first place, as 1) they dont care 2) would rather take selfies for their social media outlet of choice with their phone...
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: LetTheRightLensIn on March 27, 2014, 11:21:57 PM
The reason they haven't come out with the thing you personally want is that they don't have to.  They will produce new products when the market demands them.  Until then, they'll milk (MILC?) the R&D they already have invested in the current line.
Granted the camera business is much different so this is maybe slightly sketchy of a comparison, but such an attitude isn't always the best for a company. Look at Atari, the engineers wanted them to release an advanced new computer with GUI and mouse and multi-tasking and crazy level graphics and audio but the management said they hadn't finished milking the old 8bit line yet and saw no point in it. Who uses an Atari home computer today? Plenty of other such cases.

Canon is a large, diversified company with a lot of R&D and clever management.  I would be surprised if they don't have the basic tech available when the need (==strong market pressure) arises.  If some other company starts out-competing the 5D3 and 1DX, I am confident that Canon can match their products in a year or less.

The fact that Canon HAS not put advanced tech in the cameras does not mean they CAN not do so.

I'm not sure they have had the tech for more DR and it didn't seem like they cared enough early on. Anyway, Atari had the tech and the point is they didn't use it until well they didn't have enough money left to use it and the tech went to CBM and by that time the MAC had already come out (and while vastly inferior, all the Apple fanboys and Windows fanboys made it hard for anything to strike at that point with the impact it could have had it arrived earlier). But anyway the two scenarios are different.
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: Lawliet on March 28, 2014, 12:05:53 AM

I'm not sure they have had the tech for more DR and it didn't seem like they cared enough early on. A

What could stop them from reading the individual sensor cells of a dual pixel at different amplifications? Blending the exposures isn't exactly beyond high school math either. I.e. thats what you can get via Magic Lantern, just without the potential resolution loss, because you don't have to fall back to sensels that where meant to provide spatial data.
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: CarlTN on March 28, 2014, 12:52:28 AM
This actually makes sense to me, although I've been skeptical about Canon's "need" to release a high megapixel full frame camera.

I'll go back to a prediction I make quite a while back – I can see Canon releasing a "5D HD" that offers a pixel density somewhere in the same neighborhood as the 7D (46 mp), perhaps a little less. Same body, same basic functionality (with a slower frame rate likely) just a new sensor and maybe a little faster processor.

It would give customers a choice, but keep their production costs down since many of the components could be shared by both bodies.  Canon has seen the D800 sales figures, so they know that high megapixels aren't in huge demand, but they probably also know there is a small subset of customers that will pay a premium for more resolution. Give them what they want, but keep the production costs down.

Even in the face of this rumor which is contrary to some of your predictions, you're still falling back on them?  The main thing I notice in this rumor, is that the "3D" will have 4k video capability.  That is not "the same basic functionality" as a 5D3.  This model is obviously intended to be upmarket from the 5D3.  Slower frame rates for stills, no doubt...but it's going to be able to do a lot more video-wise.

I don`t think they will name it `3D`because its misleading... people will think that it can do 3D video...

Really? I know people in general are pretty stupid but THAT stupid?...
dunno

Well, think about it... how would you explain to a friend who doesn`t know anything about DSLRs?

Sample conversation (the conversation doesn't have to go this particular way... just hypothetically):

You: Yo Canon is releasing the 3D... or... did you check out the new Canon 3D?
Friend: What is a Canon 3D?
You: Well, its a DSLR camera that shoots both stills and video
Friend: Does it do 3D video?
You: Ummmm... no....
Friend: Then why call it 3D?
You: **Shrug** Internal conversation with your own self - I knew they shouldn't have called it the 3D... stupid... stupid... stupid...

you should give yourself an uppercut for having that conversation with someone that knows nothing about cameras in the first place, as 1) they dont care 2) would rather take selfies for their social media outlet of choice with their phone...

Lol @ "give yourself an uppercut".

I only used the term "3D" because that's what was referred to in the ongoing rumor.  I doubt they would call it "3D" also...they'd probably calling "EOS Ashton Kutcher Butcher"...:D
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: Don Haines on March 28, 2014, 06:49:54 AM
What about a 4D? It's just a matter of time :)
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: wickidwombat on March 28, 2014, 06:40:53 PM
What about a 4D? It's just a matter of time :)

No then all the Physicists would get confused they might think it were referring to advanced hypothetical spacial relationships beyond the current acknowledged 3 Dimensions...  :-*
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: Hannes on March 28, 2014, 08:29:51 PM
What about a 4D? It's just a matter of time :)

No then all the Physicists would get confused they might think it were referring to advanced hypothetical spacial relationships beyond the current acknowledged 3 Dimensions...  :-*

erm, you mean four? Or was it eleven
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: mkabi on March 28, 2014, 09:29:12 PM
What about a 4D? It's just a matter of time :)

No then all the Physicists would get confused they might think it were referring to advanced hypothetical spacial relationships beyond the current acknowledged 3 Dimensions...  :-*

Why do you think they went from 1D and then straight to 5D?
Bypassing 2D, 3D and 4D... then 7D.... whoops we missed the 6D so lets fill that space too...
I don't think they would ever do a 2D, 3D or 4D... simply because its a pun waiting to happen...
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: Ivan Muller on March 29, 2014, 06:54:49 AM

As you point out, the only people who have to wait are brand loyalists.  Obviously some people have to be, but those who don't might as well do what some of us have done and supplement our Canon bodies with an A7r.  I love mine, both with its superb native primes and my Canon EF lenses (plus a few old manual focus lenses) - so much so that I'm not sure which is my second camera....

Thanks for your impressions! the A7R , with its few drawbacks, like shuttershock, slower ef- AF still seems ideal if you want a hefty resolution increase over the 20-22mp Canon sensors. Its available now, we now what the drawbacks are, and its considerably cheaper than a 5d3 and only slightly more than a 6d. Whats not to like?

It seems ideal paired with Canon mf lenses like the 24ts, which I have, and which I many times wished that it was attached to a more dense sensor. The Canons work fien except when you want to print large. I have a HP Z2100 44 inch printer and its very easy to see when sensors fall apart on paper...

I'm not necessarily a brand loyalist but the economic reality is that I have invested in Canon and to change to a completely incompatible brand now isn't feasible for me. I have looked closely at the A7r for that reason but there seem to be three big question marks - light leak, AF performance and IQ when using an EF adaptor. You clearly love your A7r but what is your experience with these issues if you don't mind me asking?

I don't mind at all. 

1. It's not a "completely incompatible" system; they overlap.  Whether they overlap enough for your purposes I can't say, of course.  I would also say that for many people a complete switch to Sony wouldn't be sensible or desirable, and that I have no intention of doing so.  For me it's a marvelous adjunct which, in some situations, would be my go-to camera - at least until Canon comes up with a close substitute (high resolution, mirrorless, no loss of EF performance, etc. - preferably with IBIS...).   

2. The light leak applies under very limited circumstances, apparently (very long exposures in near-total darkness but with a bright light hitting part of the lens mount), and doesn't only apply to Sony cameras.  Check out Roger Cicala's blog post on the subject at lensrentals.  I never shoot in such conditions, so it's simply not an issue for me (or, I suspect, for 99.9% of people 99.9% of the time).  The shutter-shock problem is far more real (see below).

3.  AF performance with EF lenses is unquestionably inferior in terms of speed - it's not *that* slow, but if you're used to the near-instantaneous focusing you get with the best Canon lens/body combinations it will seem slow (rather comical too - it ambles towards the subject, pauses, goes a bit beyond and then comes back); and it's slow compared to native FE lenses, of course.  But it's probably not inferior in terms of accuracy; in some respects it's superior: one benefit of a mirrorless body is that with on-sensor focusing there's no need to worry about back/front focusing.  If you plan to use it to photograph things that don't move, it's not an issue.  But don't even consider it if you want to photograph sports, children running around, herons-catching-fish, etc. and rely on AF to do so.

4.  As for IQ, I've used these EF lenses: 24-105L, 28mm 2.8 IS, 40mm, 85mm 1.8, 100 L (no AF with this, but the other electronic connections work) and 70-200 f4 IS.  I haven't performed anything resembling a scientific comparison of these lenses on the A7R vs 5DIII or 6D, but I feel confident in saying that not only is the image quality not inferior on the Sony body it's probably superior (I was shocked by the superb image quality I was able to get from the 85mm 1.8 when I first attached it). 

At the time I decided to buy an A7R I had used one exclusively with Canon lenses - it was because the results were so good that I wanted one, and it was not until I had owned it for a while that I bought the two native FE primes; they're superb too, especially the remarkable 55mm 1.8. 

Having said all that, there may well be Canon lenses that don't work as well on the two Sony A7s - I have no first hand knowledge one way or another - but based on what I've read the main problems are with wide angle Leica lenses due to a design that simply doesn't apply to Canon lenses.  I would also add that if you want to use old Canon MF lenses, it's far easier to manually focus on a mirrorless camera (thanks to magnification and focus peaking) than it is on any dslr, especially if you use wide apertures; and Sony's focus peaking and magnification work at least as well as anyone else's.

5.  One flaw you didn't mention is the much-discussed shutter-shock.  This is real, and, in my experience, shows up if your shutter speed is 1/100-1/125, regardless of the lens (apparently it's worse if you use a tripod, but I don't and thus can't comment).  It doesn't seem to be a problem at other speeds, including slower speeds (though you may encounter the usual too-slow-shutter problems if you're not using a lens with IS; IS has no effect on shutter-shock, of course); I've taken plenty of sharp photos at 1/60 (a speed these cameras seem inordinately fond of if you let them decide the shutter speed).  If you avoid 1/100-1/125 you'll be fine.

I hope some of this helps.  Far more competent/savvy/knowledgeable people than I have written about all of this, though, so don't rely  too much on what I've written!
That's very helpful, many thanks for taking the time.
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: ecka on March 29, 2014, 07:05:18 AM
What about a 4D? It's just a matter of time :)

No then all the Physicists would get confused they might think it were referring to advanced hypothetical spacial relationships beyond the current acknowledged 3 Dimensions...  :-*

Why do you think they went from 1D and then straight to 5D?
Bypassing 2D, 3D and 4D... then 7D.... whoops we missed the 6D so lets fill that space too...
I don't think they would ever do a 2D, 3D or 4D... simply because its a pun waiting to happen...

I think they went from EOS 1 to EOS 1D and then from EOS 5 to EOS 5D later. So, there is a deeper, historical explanation for that. Canon can call their cameras whatever they want (Rebel "terminators" or Kiss series), I really don't care. However, I wouldn't call any camera a 2D or 3D, because it would be awkward and confusing, specially when using internet search engines (?shopping) and that could be affecting sales very much. If 6D was released just a few years earlier, then it could have been called 5D something (like 5D WG). Nobody is trying to fill any spaces between numbers :), they are just numbers.
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: Menace on April 24, 2014, 04:57:57 AM
What about a 4D? It's just a matter of time :)

No then all the Physicists would get confused they might think it were referring to advanced hypothetical spacial relationships beyond the current acknowledged 3 Dimensions...  :-*

erm, you mean four? Or was it eleven


Well it's three plus one for the usuall spacetime as well as the extra seven that are tightly curled up and cannot be verified with current technology/physics.

Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: This_Is_Cinerama on May 02, 2014, 03:41:50 AM
Here is the situation:

You have a 6D. You have never felt completely satisfied with it for many reason. Reasons that could include 5DmkIII envy, CF, focus points and overall build etc. It is personal and may or may not make sense to everyone.

Most importantly, you feel you are not getting the most out of your 70-200mm 2.8L II or 85mm f1.2 in some situations.

You have the opportunity to trade in the 6D for a reasonable price and pay the difference on a 5DmkIII. You are completely happy with this potential transaction. Ultimately a loss in original investment, yes, but finally getting into the 5DmkIII you have lusted after.
 

Here is the question:

With all the recent rumors of a mkIV, sensor/focus technology etc etc. would you pull the trigger on the 5DmkIII or continue to wait, potentially until 2015?

Time is somewhat of an issue, as I want to keep shooting. Also, I would spend the extra money on a MKIV, but would not be comfortable with a price point like the current 1D X.


I'm looking for general thoughts and opinions, because I'm torn.

Many thanks, cheers!
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: candyman on May 02, 2014, 04:14:08 AM
Here is the situation:

You have a 6D. You have never felt completely satisfied with it for many reason. Reasons that could include 5DmkIII envy, CF, focus points and overall build etc. It is personal and may or may not make sense to everyone.

Most importantly, you feel you are not getting the most out of your 70-200mm 2.8L II or 85mm f1.2 in some situations.

You have the opportunity to trade in the 6D for a reasonable price and pay the difference on a 5DmkIII. You are completely happy with this potential transaction. Ultimately a loss in original investment, yes, but finally getting into the 5DmkIII you have lusted after.
 

Here is the question:

With all the recent rumors of a mkIV, sensor/focus technology etc etc. would you pull the trigger on the 5DmkIII or continue to wait, potentially until 2015?

Time is somewhat of an issue, as I want to keep shooting. Also, I would spend the extra money on a MKIV, but would not be comfortable with a price point like the current 1D X.


I'm looking for general thoughts and opinions, because I'm torn.

Many thanks, cheers!

Welcome to CR

You feel you are not getting the most out of the 70-200. Can you give more info on that?
I would say go for the 5D III if you are really not satisfied with the 6D. That will make you happy for the coming period. We don't know if a MKIV will arrive in 2015.
Where I live an occasion 5D MK III is offered for around 2295 euro. In one year from now that might be 1700euro. Still good money. So if the 5D IV will arrive, you can add some good money. But most important, you will be happy with the results of your shooting today until next year while using the 5D MK III.
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: Menace on May 02, 2014, 06:03:44 AM

But most important, you will be happy with the results of your shooting today until next year while using the 5D MK III.


+1

Get the 5D III now and enjoy it and don't forget to share your photos with us.

Menace :)
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: neuroanatomist on May 02, 2014, 08:08:13 AM
With all the recent rumors of a mkIV, sensor/focus technology etc etc. would you pull the trigger on the 5DmkIII or continue to wait, potentially until 2015?

A replacement for the 100-400L of been rumored to be 'just around the corner' for several years now.  The current version continues to sell like proverbial hotcakes, so Canon is under very little pressure to release a replacement.

The 5DIII is arguably the best general-purpose dSLR available on the market today.  Short Canon will update it at some point, but that point is likely far off.  I'd say get the 5DIII and be happy!
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: Don Haines on May 02, 2014, 10:02:57 AM
With all the recent rumors of a mkIV, sensor/focus technology etc etc. would you pull the trigger on the 5DmkIII or continue to wait, potentially until 2015?


If you really want/need the camera, get it now. Waiting for the next model is an open-ended game. As products mature, the expected update cycles grow longer and you could be waiting for a long time... just look at the 7D, 5 years old and no solid rumours in sight... no announcements, just speculation that it MIGHT be out in time for Christmas... that means that the OPTIMISTIC view is a six year product cycle. How long are you willing to wait for a two year old 5D3 to be replaced?
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: e17paul on May 02, 2014, 03:11:41 PM

You have a 6D. You have never felt completely satisfied with it for many reason. Reasons that could include 5DmkIII envy, CF, focus points and overall build etc. It is personal and may or may not make sense to everyone.



Have you checked that you have the fastest available SDXC card? It should read at least 600x next to the class 10 UHS-1 markings. Slower class 10 UHS-1 cards work fine in the 6D, but the speed difference is noticeable when the camera saves multiple images or HDR is used.

Don't feel that this would be wasted if you buy a 5D3 with an even faster CF card, there is also a second (SD) slot that I'm sure could be useful for backup.
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: CarlTN on May 04, 2014, 01:54:23 AM

You have a 6D. You have never felt completely satisfied with it for many reason. Reasons that could include 5DmkIII envy, CF, focus points and overall build etc. It is personal and may or may not make sense to everyone.


Have you checked that you have the fastest available SDXC card? It should read at least 600x next to the class 10 UHS-1 markings. Slower class 10 UHS-1 cards work fine in the 6D, but the speed difference is noticeable when the camera saves multiple images or HDR is used.

Don't feel that this would be wasted if you buy a 5D3 with an even faster CF card, there is also a second (SD) slot that I'm sure could be useful for backup.

Good point, succinct and well stated. 

To you or anyone, where did the "kiss" name come from, for the Rebel line in Europe?  Is it meant to market to certain people, and if so, which people?  In America they could almost use "kiss" also, if for no other reason than almost nobody in the potential customer base, would associate it with the rock band.  They're too young, and even their parents are almost too young too, lol.  To me, "rebel" seems more fitting, but maybe that's just because I'm accustomed to the name and the line over time.
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: sagittariansrock on May 04, 2014, 02:01:00 AM

You have a 6D. You have never felt completely satisfied with it for many reason. Reasons that could include 5DmkIII envy, CF, focus points and overall build etc. It is personal and may or may not make sense to everyone.



Have you checked that you have the fastest available SDXC card? It should read at least 600x next to the class 10 UHS-1 markings. Slower class 10 UHS-1 cards work fine in the 6D, but the speed difference is noticeable when the camera saves multiple images or HDR is used.

Don't feel that this would be wasted if you buy a 5D3 with an even faster CF card, there is also a second (SD) slot that I'm sure could be useful for backup.

Although, the 5DIII cannot take advantage of the faster SD cards. I think the top speed achievable is 133x.
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: ecka on May 04, 2014, 02:20:05 AM
To you or anyone, where did the "kiss" name come from, for the Rebel line in Europe?  Is it meant to market to certain people, and if so, which people?  In America they could almost use "kiss" also, if for no other reason than almost nobody in the potential customer base, would associate it with the rock band.  They're too young, and even their parents are almost too young too, lol.  To me, "rebel" seems more fitting, but maybe that's just because I'm accustomed to the name and the line over time.

Actually, "kiss" is the Asian name for Rebel series. In Europe we have D series - 300D-700D, 1000D-1200D and 100D aka SL1.
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: CarlTN on May 04, 2014, 02:28:41 AM
To you or anyone, where did the "kiss" name come from, for the Rebel line in Europe?  Is it meant to market to certain people, and if so, which people?  In America they could almost use "kiss" also, if for no other reason than almost nobody in the potential customer base, would associate it with the rock band.  They're too young, and even their parents are almost too young too, lol.  To me, "rebel" seems more fitting, but maybe that's just because I'm accustomed to the name and the line over time.

Actually, "kiss" is the Asian name for Rebel series. In Europe we have D series - 300D-700D, 1000D-1200D and 100D aka SL1.

My mistake.  Where did it come from, if you know?
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: ecka on May 04, 2014, 02:58:03 AM
To you or anyone, where did the "kiss" name come from, for the Rebel line in Europe?  Is it meant to market to certain people, and if so, which people?  In America they could almost use "kiss" also, if for no other reason than almost nobody in the potential customer base, would associate it with the rock band.  They're too young, and even their parents are almost too young too, lol.  To me, "rebel" seems more fitting, but maybe that's just because I'm accustomed to the name and the line over time.

Actually, "kiss" is the Asian name for Rebel series. In Europe we have D series - 300D-700D, 1000D-1200D and 100D aka SL1.

My mistake.  Where did it come from, if you know?

Could be the same place all weird Japanese stuff comes from :).
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: CarlTN on May 04, 2014, 04:31:50 AM
To you or anyone, where did the "kiss" name come from, for the Rebel line in Europe?  Is it meant to market to certain people, and if so, which people?  In America they could almost use "kiss" also, if for no other reason than almost nobody in the potential customer base, would associate it with the rock band.  They're too young, and even their parents are almost too young too, lol.  To me, "rebel" seems more fitting, but maybe that's just because I'm accustomed to the name and the line over time.

Actually, "kiss" is the Asian name for Rebel series. In Europe we have D series - 300D-700D, 1000D-1200D and 100D aka SL1.

My mistake.  Where did it come from, if you know?

Could be the same place all weird Japanese stuff comes from :).

Haha, that is not very reverent of the Japanese, who design and build your cameras...
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: ecka on May 04, 2014, 07:11:03 AM
To you or anyone, where did the "kiss" name come from, for the Rebel line in Europe?  Is it meant to market to certain people, and if so, which people?  In America they could almost use "kiss" also, if for no other reason than almost nobody in the potential customer base, would associate it with the rock band.  They're too young, and even their parents are almost too young too, lol.  To me, "rebel" seems more fitting, but maybe that's just because I'm accustomed to the name and the line over time.

Actually, "kiss" is the Asian name for Rebel series. In Europe we have D series - 300D-700D, 1000D-1200D and 100D aka SL1.

My mistake.  Where did it come from, if you know?

Could be the same place all weird Japanese stuff comes from :).

Haha, that is not very reverent of the Japanese, who design and build your cameras...

... and I love my Japanese cameras :). I just don't understand some design and marketing decisions they make. Like my 6D having 1/180sec flash sync and that option is not available if the flash is not attached to the camera, so I have to use 1/160sec shutter speed with my non-TTL triggers. Not a big deal, but still...
Selling lenses (non-L) without a piece of plastic called "lens hood" and asking an unreasonable amount of money for such accessories (like $70 for a hood for the 35/2 IS USM) is beyond my logic as well :). Canon started implementing "the pinch cap technology" lately, so there is hope :).
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: jrista on May 04, 2014, 02:59:26 PM
What about a 4D? It's just a matter of time :)

No then all the Physicists would get confused they might think it were referring to advanced hypothetical spacial relationships beyond the current acknowledged 3 Dimensions...  :-*

Why do you think they went from 1D and then straight to 5D?
Bypassing 2D, 3D and 4D... then 7D.... whoops we missed the 6D so lets fill that space too...
I don't think they would ever do a 2D, 3D or 4D... simply because its a pun waiting to happen...

The number 4 in Japan is an unlucky number, same as with the number 9. I generally would not expect to see any products with those numbers from Japanese companies...but then Nikon went and made the D4...so you never know. :P

I think the 2D and 3D are definitely puns waiting to happen, or at the very least confusing names for a DSLR that is very likely to have video capabilities. The 3D just sounds too much like a camera capable of taking three-dimensional video.

I'd kind of like to see a 4D though...something above the 5D line in specs, but not as costly as the 1D line.
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: Jamesy on May 04, 2014, 03:03:34 PM

You have a 6D. You have never felt completely satisfied with it for many reason. Reasons that could include 5DmkIII envy, CF, focus points and overall build etc. It is personal and may or may not make sense to everyone.

Dual card slots on the 5D3 are one of the BEST features of this camera, albeit limited in speed on the SD slot. That said, I usually have it configured to shoot to both cards simultaneously and if I really need the speed I can click a couple of buttons and remove the SD card as a bottleneck to the buffer.

Have you checked that you have the fastest available SDXC card? It should read at least 600x next to the class 10 UHS-1 markings. Slower class 10 UHS-1 cards work fine in the 6D, but the speed difference is noticeable when the camera saves multiple images or HDR is used.

Don't feel that this would be wasted if you buy a 5D3 with an even faster CF card, there is also a second (SD) slot that I'm sure could be useful for backup.

Although, the 5DIII cannot take advantage of the faster SD cards. I think the top speed achievable is 133x.
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: wickidwombat on May 05, 2014, 07:55:12 PM
Here is the situation:

You have a 6D. You have never felt completely satisfied with it for many reason. Reasons that could include 5DmkIII envy, CF, focus points and overall build etc. It is personal and may or may not make sense to everyone.

Most importantly, you feel you are not getting the most out of your 70-200mm 2.8L II or 85mm f1.2 in some situations.

You have the opportunity to trade in the 6D for a reasonable price and pay the difference on a 5DmkIII. You are completely happy with this potential transaction. Ultimately a loss in original investment, yes, but finally getting into the 5DmkIII you have lusted after.
 

Here is the question:

With all the recent rumors of a mkIV, sensor/focus technology etc etc. would you pull the trigger on the 5DmkIII or continue to wait, potentially until 2015?

Time is somewhat of an issue, as I want to keep shooting. Also, I would spend the extra money on a MKIV, but would not be comfortable with a price point like the current 1D X.


I'm looking for general thoughts and opinions, because I'm torn.

Many thanks, cheers!

If you are happy with the transaction then get the 5Dmk3 the AF is blazingly good and in a completely different world to that crap 9 point system. The overall 5D3 package is a really great all round performer
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: neuroanatomist on May 05, 2014, 08:17:57 PM
the 5Dmk3 the AF is blazingly good and in a completely different world to that crap 9 point system.

I have to take issue with that false statement.  Sorry, but you're mistaken. Wrong.  Incorrect.  You're mischaracterizing the 6D's AF system, bub.

The 6D has 11 AF points. 

 :D
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: wickidwombat on May 05, 2014, 08:29:54 PM
the 5Dmk3 the AF is blazingly good and in a completely different world to that crap 9 point system.

I have to take issue with that false statement.  Sorry, but you're mistaken. Wrong.  Incorrect.  You're mischaracterizing the 6D's AF system, bub.

The 6D has 11 AF points. 

 :D

woops sorry :-[

anyway its still no better than the 5Dmk2 AF which was junk too ;)
Title: Re: New Full Frame Camera in 2014? [CR1]
Post by: Lawliet on May 05, 2014, 11:15:07 PM

The 6D has 11 AF points. 

 :D
Alas...9 points and that 8way+center controller actually made sense...so it had to be changed.