canon rumors FORUM

Rumors => EOS Bodies => Topic started by: Canon Rumors on October 30, 2011, 09:18:39 PM

Title: *UPDATE* The "Historic" November 3, 2011 Announcement [CR1]
Post by: Canon Rumors on October 30, 2011, 09:18:39 PM

*UPDATE*

I was also told that we’ll see at least two compact cine lenses, and possibly a third. No focal lengths were mentioned.


More hints?



Source: PhotoLifeToys


CR’s Take

There will be no DSLR announcement on November 3, 2011. This is a video only announcement. However, there could be “EF” and “EOS” branding involved.


I was told Vincent Laforet has been shooting promo material with the new camera in the Los Angeles area. However, he was NOT shooting with a DSLR.


cr


Title: Re: The \
Post by: astrocrab on October 30, 2011, 10:21:25 PM
What does "Image quality: Alexa good" means?
Title: Re: The \
Post by: Mt Spokane Photography on October 30, 2011, 10:38:24 PM
What does "Image quality: Alexa good" means?

That means the quality is claimed to be comparable  to the IQ of a Alexa.  The Alexa is a high end video camera made by Arri with a full frame 35mm sensor. 

http://visionaryforces.com/arri-alexa-digital-video-camera.html
Title: Re: *UPDATE* The \
Post by: dash2k8 on October 30, 2011, 11:05:01 PM
Sorry for the dumb question, but what "4k capture, 2k record" mean?
Title: Re: *UPDATE* The \
Post by: bvukich on October 30, 2011, 11:20:24 PM
Sorry for the dumb question, but what "4k capture, 2k record" mean?

Probably uncompressed 4K over SDI, but can only compress/record 2K on whatever onboard media it contains.
Title: Re: *UPDATE* The \
Post by: macfly on October 31, 2011, 12:08:22 AM
Interesting to see a small visionary American company taking on Canon on the very same day!

http://www.red.com/

Feeling more than very let down by Canon over the not for me new 1D line I rather hope they Me_Me_Me their Oriental competitors.

Title: Re: *UPDATE* The \
Post by: coltsfreak18 on October 31, 2011, 12:09:06 AM
Sorry for the dumb question, but what "4k capture, 2k record" mean?
Either what the guy above me said, or it's sensor's resolution is 4k and it outputs its footage (either through HD-SDI or onto CF or SSD) in 2k, possibly upgradeable (in the future) to full 4k RAW output.
Title: Re: *UPDATE* The \
Post by: gene_can_sing on October 31, 2011, 12:20:19 AM
Not sure how accurate this is, but I've heard numerous times that the Scarlet is going to be a 2/3" sensor. After making people wait an eternity for the Scarlet, if that is true, it would be the biggest disappointment in camera history. If it is 2/3", I guarantee they will sell about 2 cameras total.

As for Canon, where is the middle ground? It's great that you guys are finally introducing a $10K+ camera that's "Alexa" good, but since the 1D is still H264 compression (ie. low end), what camera is going to be in the middle for video?

I just hope they introduce something in the same price range as the Panny AF101 or the Sony FS100. Something more people can afford.

Or just get it over with and introduce a good full frame video DSLR. That's what made Canon video famous. People just want an update to that with some tweaks. Evolve the same formula and just listen to what your customers want (4:2:2, 1080p 60fps, a flip screen), and you will sell a lot of cameras

Don't evolve the formula and don't listen to what your customers want, and you will sell a lot less cameras. The only thing that sets Canon video apart from the others is Full Frame. Without that, Canon is just another fish in the pond.
Title: Re: *UPDATE* The "Historic" November 3, 2011 Announcement [CR1]
Post by: J. McCabe on October 31, 2011, 12:49:33 AM
Probably another dumb question - what's the point of an EF mount for a $10,000+ video camera ?

It seems to me that EF lenses are not a big attraction to someone who can spend that much money on video equipment.
Title: Re: The \
Post by: FredBGG on October 31, 2011, 01:21:17 AM


That means the quality is claimed to be comparable  to the IQ of a Alexa.  The Alexa is a high end video camera made by Arri with a full frame 35mm sensor. 

http://visionaryforces.com/arri-alexa-digital-video-camera.html
[/quote]

The Arri sensor is not FF in the same way the Canon 5D is.... it is not a 24x36 sensor.
The Alexa sensor has an image out size of 23.76 mm x 13.37 mm (16:9) is  2880 x 1620 Pixels
 
Title: Re: *UPDATE* The "Historic" November 3, 2011 Announcement [CR1]
Post by: aaronofnero on October 31, 2011, 01:56:32 AM
Probably another dumb question - what's the point of an EF mount for a $10,000+ video camera ?

It seems to me that EF lenses are not a big attraction to someone who can spend that much money on video equipment.

well, 10-15k honestly isn't a high price in the whole cinema world. Arri / Zeiss Master Primes usually cost around 25k per lens just as an example. as it is, the EF/PL interchangeable zeiss CP2 lenses are $3900 a piece. so, having an EF mount affords you the option of having more glass at your disposal. The only downside is follow focus and most high end matte box equipment. They're usually suited for the larger focus ring diameter and the functionality of the PL lens mechanics. Even with the f3, people are using canon and nikon glass with adapters to save money on the PL option. I'm sure canon will offer a PL mount substitute or adapter, as even 3rd party companies have done with the dslrs.
Title: Re: *UPDATE* The "Historic" November 3, 2011 Announcement [CR1]
Post by: sammy on October 31, 2011, 03:48:47 AM
How many super-zooms (e.g 800mm) are there for PL mount?
How many 800mm zoom lenses are available for EF?
Title: Re: *UPDATE* The "Historic" November 3, 2011 Announcement [CR1]
Post by: WoodyWindy on October 31, 2011, 09:25:46 AM
How many super-zooms (e.g 800mm) are there for PL mount?
How many 800mm zoom lenses are available for EF?

One, as far as I know - the Sigma 300-800.

 - Woody -
Title: Re: The \
Post by: HurtinMinorKey on October 31, 2011, 11:31:35 AM

The Arri sensor is not FF in the same way the Canon 5D is.... it is not a 24x36 sensor.
The Alexa sensor has an image out size of 23.76 mm x 13.37 mm (16:9) is  2880 x 1620 Pixels

The Alexa, and Sony F3 are both super-35 equivalent  sensors (with the dimensions mentioned above), which are less than full frame. 

Title: Re: *UPDATE* The \
Post by: KitH on October 31, 2011, 11:35:08 AM

Maybe they just want to reach out the market who can't quite run to one of these yet?

http://www.canon.com/bctv/products/pdf/100xs.pdf

(OK, I know I cheated, that's a TV lens not a cine lens, but it's still pretty cool).
Title: Re: *UPDATE* The "Historic" November 3, 2011 Announcement [CR1]
Post by: neuroanatomist on October 31, 2011, 12:18:53 PM
How many super-zooms (e.g 800mm) are there for PL mount?
How many 800mm zoom lenses are available for EF?

One, as far as I know - the Sigma 300-800.

 - Woody -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_EF_800mm_lens

Can you explain how that qualifies as a "super-zoom" lens, or any kind of zoom lens?  Perhaps you should check out this other wiki page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoom_lens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoom_lens)
Title: Re: *UPDATE* The \
Post by: Mt Spokane Photography on October 31, 2011, 12:19:58 PM
Interesting to see a small visionary American company taking on Canon on the very same day!

http://www.red.com/

Feeling more than very let down by Canon over the not for me new 1D line I rather hope they Me_Me_Me their Oriental competitors.

Do you mean the re-announcement of Scarlett by Red?  Is was already announced in 2008 for shipment in 2009?  Are some still waiting for it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RED_Scarlet
Title: Re: *UPDATE* The \
Post by: HurtinMinorKey on October 31, 2011, 12:58:44 PM
Interesting to see a small visionary American company taking on Canon on the very same day!

http://www.red.com/

Feeling more than very let down by Canon over the not for me new 1D line I rather hope they Me_Me_Me their Oriental competitors.

Do you mean the re-announcement of Scarlett by Red?  Is was already announced in 2008 for shipment in 2009?  Are some still waiting for it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RED_Scarlet

Come on, Japan has been a US military outpost since WWII.  That makes them part of the empire in my book.
Title: Re: *UPDATE* The \
Post by: bornshooter on October 31, 2011, 01:13:58 PM
5d mk3 will be announced
Title: Re: *UPDATE* The "Historic" November 3, 2011 Announcement [CR1]
Post by: neuroanatomist on October 31, 2011, 01:33:53 PM
Oh, you mean I should have just called it a "super telephoto" lens instead of zoom?

Means the same to me :-P

Just remember that the next time you need to reframe a shot with a prime lens.   :P  With an 800mm lens, you might need to walk a few hundred feet to do that, while someone with Woody's 300-800mm zoom would just twist the zoom ring and take the shot.
Title: Re: *UPDATE* The "Historic" November 3, 2011 Announcement [CR1]
Post by: neuroanatomist on October 31, 2011, 02:07:16 PM
Too bad that none of Canon's prime lenses actually have prime numbers for the focal length.

Off day?   ;)  What about the TS-E 17mm f/4L...
Title: Re: *UPDATE* The \
Post by: kawasakiguy37 on October 31, 2011, 03:26:51 PM
Im surprised none of you find this more exciting....do you realize the hardware thats required to make this thing work? 10k would be steal. Im hoping it does 4k full HD directly to CF, because that would really make some RED competition. Obviously canon is saving less-compressed video for their video cameras - or else why would the new 1DX still do H264?

Super 35mm sensor isnt so bad either - your going to export to 16x9 or wider anyways, no need for the extra space (and processing power needed) for a taller sensor.

As for EF v PL mount, Im guessing it will be able to do both via adapter. Very useful considering that there is some high quality EF glass out there - and you can adapt most other lenses (nikon F, pentax, etc) to EF already. I think the real question we should be asking is:

Whats the deal with AF? EF video lenses? New lenses releasd by canon for concurrent use with the DSLR's and new cinema cameras? This could get very interesting.
Title: Re: *UPDATE* The \
Post by: justthefacts on October 31, 2011, 03:45:02 PM
Here is the scoop on the November 3 announcement by Canon:

The camera to be announced will be priced at above $50,000. (body only).

How do I know this?  Because:
1. The president of Canon is flying from Tokyo to Hollywood for the announcement.
2. Invitations for the event have only be sent to mainstream studios and other high end studios.
3. The public is not invited to the event because there is no room for a big audience in the small room where the announcement will be made in the new Canon offices on the Sunset-Gower studio lot.

So based upon these FACTS, sorry to crush your wishful thinking of a $10,000. camera, but this is not a consumer or even pro-sumer or even independent filmmaker event.  This is an event for mainstream studios.

The camera to be announced is designed to compete with Sony's F65 CineAlta 4K camera, a $65,000 body only camera.

Later, next year, you'll hear some trickle down for lesser models at lesser price points with less features.  But not on November 3. 
Title: Re: *UPDATE* The \
Post by: HurtinMinorKey on October 31, 2011, 04:28:34 PM
You are forgetting the fact that Canon is choosing to announce the same day as Red Scarlet.

There is no way Scarlet is going to be priced anywhere above $15k, so that leads me to believe that whatever Canon is going to announce that day will compete in that price range.
Title: Re: *UPDATE* The "Historic" November 3, 2011 Announcement [CR1]
Post by: neuroanatomist on October 31, 2011, 04:59:46 PM
Well, the web page I asked for a list of Canon's prime lenses didn't list any of the TS lenses, so it would seem that there's some disagreement about whether that is considered a prime lens :D

Probably about as much disagreement as over whether the 800mm f/5.6L IS is a superzoom lens.   :P
Title: Re: *UPDATE* The \
Post by: justthefacts on October 31, 2011, 05:14:08 PM
Canon is choosing to announce the same day as Red Scarlet.

Canon did not choose the date based upon when Scarlet will be announced.  In fact, the opposite is the case:
"Not to be outdone, shortly after Canon coyly asked the press to “save the date,” Jim Jannard, the inimitable founder of Red, announced that “Everything you ever wanted to hear from RED regarding Scarlet will be announced Nov. 3 at 6 p.m.”
http://www.btlnews.com/crafts/camera/canon-promises-a-historic-global-announcement-nov-3/

Title: Re: *UPDATE* The \
Post by: gene_can_sing on October 31, 2011, 07:59:24 PM
Here's why I think some type of hybrid video / DSLR might be introduced on Nov 3rd. It makes ZERO sense to introduce a modern video camera with a mirror. It will get laughed out of the room.

The current 5D EOS mount can easily adopt PL mount lenses. The only problem is the mirror. There are modified 7Ds and 5Ds out there that have had the mirror taken out to allow PL mount lenses.

With that said, any new Canon camcorder style video camera will be mirrorless and will probably have some type of EOS adaptor since the flange length on mirrorless cameras are really short..

So logic says, if they are introducing a camera that only takes EOS lenses and not PL lenses, it implies that it has a MIRROR. And that means it will be a DSLR or some type of hybrid. There is ZERO chance they are going to put a mirror in a dedicated video camera. That would be so antiquated and dated.

With that said, this is a rumors site, so the whole separate EOS and PL mount info could all just be hot air. Nobody will know until that day.

Title: Re: *UPDATE* The \
Post by: DavidG on October 31, 2011, 08:06:51 PM
Is there going to be an online spot for us to watch the announcement?
Title: Re: *UPDATE* The \
Post by: sjaudio on October 31, 2011, 08:44:19 PM
Here's why I think some type of hybrid video / DSLR might be introduced on Nov 3rd. It makes ZERO sense to introduce a modern video camera with a mirror. It will get laughed out of the room.

The current 5D EOS mount can easily adopt PL mount lenses. The only problem is the mirror. There are modified 7Ds and 5Ds out there that have had the mirror taken out to allow PL mount lenses.

With that said, any new Canon camcorder style video camera will be mirrorless and will probably have some type of EOS adaptor since the flange length on mirrorless cameras are really short..

So logic says, if they are introducing a camera that only takes EOS lenses and not PL lenses, it implies that it has a MIRROR. And that means it will be a DSLR or some type of hybrid. There is ZERO chance they are going to put a mirror in a dedicated video camera. That would be so antiquated and dated.

With that said, this is a rumors site, so the whole separate EOS and PL mount info could all just be hot air. Nobody will know until that day.

People have been using EOS and EF interchangeably in the forums.  The initial report states that it is an EF mount.  That says nothing about a mirror, just the connector to get the lens on the body.
Title: Re: *UPDATE* The \
Post by: c.d.embrey on October 31, 2011, 11:23:36 PM

With that said, any new Canon camcorder style video camera will be mirrorless and will probably have some type of EOS adaptor since the flange length on mirrorless cameras are really short..


There is a Hugh difference between a HD Video Camera, as used by the Television Networks, and a Digital Cinema Camera used by Hollywood Studios. So I don't think that Canon sent invitation to the Hollywood Studios, to announce a video camera.   :)
Title: Re: *UPDATE* The \
Post by: Edwin Herdman on November 01, 2011, 02:24:41 AM
Canon might be well positioned to produce something which can start to bridge the gap between those types of systems.  RED seems to have bet right that you can differentiate between different models to match needs and budgets, but Canon's video DSLRs (and video-equipped DSLRs / in general; even mirrorless cameras are fighting to get into this space) already seem to do pretty well for much of the budget segment RED was hoping to capture; they might be able to cover much of the remaining high-end market with one solution here (especially if it's affordable).  From what I've read Canon must be looking to recapture some market share in electronic news gathering, but this will at least help offset that market impact if they can't recapture it.

It will be very interesting to see if the lenses are PL or EF mount, or both.  I admit being caught offguard by their announcement of support for PL mount, and moving more towards EF mount could maybe be seen as reneging a bit on that promise.  They will be looking to lock in customers to whatever system they create, but they also hopefully realize (as I was told months back) that in the high-end video / cinema markets that compatibility with PL mount primes is important.

Sensor size will be another interesting thing to watch for - full frame, larger, or smaller?  I have no idea what Canon could or should produce, but from simple dimensions full frame sounds like the most efficient use of an EF mount (same diameter as Arri PL, and a shorter flange focal distance).
Title: Re: *UPDATE* The \
Post by: Giant Steps on November 01, 2011, 02:42:00 PM
Here is the scoop on the November 3 announcement by Canon:

The camera to be announced will be priced at above $50,000. (body only).

How do I know this?  Because:
1. The president of Canon is flying from Tokyo to Hollywood for the announcement.
2. Invitations for the event have only be sent to mainstream studios and other high end studios.
3. The public is not invited to the event because there is no room for a big audience in the small room where the announcement will be made in the new Canon offices on the Sunset-Gower studio lot.

So based upon these FACTS, sorry to crush your wishful thinking of a $10,000. camera, but this is not a consumer or even pro-sumer or even independent filmmaker event.  This is an event for mainstream studios.

The camera to be announced is designed to compete with Sony's F65 CineAlta 4K camera, a $65,000 body only camera.

Later, next year, you'll hear some trickle down for lesser models at lesser price points with less features.  But not on November 3.

You are either misinformed, or trolling.  Explain this to the shooters of 2 new cams who have been all over SoCal for the past 3 weeks, and the special built setup room at Birns & Sawyer in the Valley.
Title: Re: *UPDATE* The
Post by: Zuuyi on November 01, 2011, 05:17:52 PM
I want it to be a 5D3; but it easily could be a 2, 3, or 4 series.  There is no way it will be a 50k camera. I think it is a $2-5k camera aimed at video.  Could be up to $15k but it will not be $50k.

It could also be a 7D built just for Videographers; it would get a lot of interest with Dual Digic V chips.  It would be nice if it get's up to 2k video.

And 4k capture is only 11.5 Megapixels; which is done by all current Canon DSLRs excluding the 1D3.  So 4k capture isn't that big of a deal for a camera.  if it can capture 4k in video format that would be something nice, but would be 5 or 10k and up.

Title: Re: *UPDATE* The
Post by: RichST on November 01, 2011, 06:09:56 PM
And 4k capture is only 11.5 Megapixels; which is done by all current Canon DSLRs excluding the 1D3.  So 4k capture isn't that big of a deal for a camera.  if it can capture 4k in video format that would be something nice, but would be 5 or 10k and up.

Just to clarify here, while most all Canon cameras have "4K" sensors they are definitely not using the entire sensor to generate video, most pixels are getting binned or thrown out in the process. Usually 4K in video means you are fully sampling at that rate
Title: Re: *UPDATE* The
Post by: Edwin Herdman on November 02, 2011, 05:37:26 AM
And 4k capture is only 11.5 Megapixels; which is done by all current Canon DSLRs excluding the 1D3.  So 4k capture isn't that big of a deal for a camera.
Simply having a bazillion pixels on the image sensor is not the same as being able to pull image off those pixels for 24, 30, or even 60 frames per second.  Have another look at DSLR shooting rates if you don't think this is the case - none of even the top-end cameras come close to 24 frames per second, and the shutter / mirror mechanism is not the only limiting factor here - the electronics are.  The data throughput potential of the system, to be exact.

This is part of the reason why the news about the 1D X not skipping lines on the sensor is such big news - getting information from every portion of the sensor rather than just skipping lines to save data throughput (from the image sensor to the CPU, mainly) and processing time (as the CPU combines adjacent pixels from the image sensor into one pixel - remembering that this is done across lines, so this might be a call out to slightly slower off-CPU RAM, as opposed to a simple addition or multiplication on the CPU combining two data points that are "next to each other" in the data stream) is very expensive computationally.

4K stills - yeah, that's not a big deal (anymore - it wasn't too long ago that even stills didn't reach that resolution, and buying a camera with 4K resolution is still not dirt cheap).  4K video is a whole 'nother ballgame.
Title: Re: *UPDATE* The \
Post by: niccyboy on November 02, 2011, 07:31:20 AM
Anyone know when this announcement is to be made?
Title: Re: *UPDATE* The
Post by: Zuuyi on November 02, 2011, 09:38:18 AM
And 4k capture is only 11.5 Megapixels; which is done by all current Canon DSLRs excluding the 1D3.  So 4k capture isn't that big of a deal for a camera.
Simply having a bazillion pixels on the image sensor is not the same as being able to pull image off those pixels for 24, 30, or even 60 frames per second.  Have another look at DSLR shooting rates if you don't think this is the case - none of even the top-end cameras come close to 24 frames per second, and the shutter / mirror mechanism is not the only limiting factor here - the electronics are.  The data throughput potential of the system, to be exact.

This is part of the reason why the news about the 1D X not skipping lines on the sensor is such big news - getting information from every portion of the sensor rather than just skipping lines to save data throughput (from the image sensor to the CPU, mainly) and processing time (as the CPU combines adjacent pixels from the image sensor into one pixel - remembering that this is done across lines, so this might be a call out to slightly slower off-CPU RAM, as opposed to a simple addition or multiplication on the CPU combining two data points that are "next to each other" in the data stream) is very expensive computationally.

4K stills - yeah, that's not a big deal (anymore - it wasn't too long ago that even stills didn't reach that resolution, and buying a camera with 4K resolution is still not dirt cheap).  4K video is a whole 'nother ballgame.

Buying a 4k camera is dirt cheap now: $40 bucks (Probably a POS P&S but still 4k capture)
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Insignia%26%23153%3B+-+Refurbished+12.0-Megapixel+Digital+Camera+-+Metallic+Blue/1634105.p?id=1218274974194&skuId=1634105

I clearly separated 4k capture from 4k video.  Because 4k capture doesn't state video or still.  4k video capture is a game changer; even 2k video would be great in the DSLR world.

To be honest I would prefer 720p or 1080p slow motion (120, 240, 480 fps) before 4k video; more useful to me.

I think 2k video is doable in the price range of anywhere between 2D - 7D.  4k video is going to be above 5k likely above 10k.  And I don't believe they would make such a production of it if it was above 10k.
Title: Re: *UPDATE* The \
Post by: Stu_bert on November 02, 2011, 05:49:01 PM
Sorry, as per other threads, this is not anything to do with Canon's dSLR I think. It's a step up for Canon, hence why Red is trying to head it off with their own announcement. I think this will be out of most people's league, but still fun to read about... :)