canon rumors FORUM

Rumors => EOS Bodies => Topic started by: Canon Rumors on November 03, 2011, 08:53:04 PM

Title: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: Canon Rumors on November 03, 2011, 08:53:04 PM

Coming Attractions: New Canon Digital SLR Camera Under Development

HOLLYWOOD, California, November 3, 2011/TOKYO, November 4, 2011 – Canon Inc. today announced that the company is developing a new-concept EOS-series digital single-lens reflex (SLR) camera. Incorporating an enhanced version of the video-capture capability offered in the current EOS-series lineup, the new camera will be ideally suited for cinematographic and other digital high-resolution production applications. The model will be equipped with a 35 mm full-frame CMOS sensor and, enabling the recording of 4K video (at a frame rate of 24P, with Motion-JPEG compression), will make possible the type of exceptional image quality and sublime imaging expression to be expected from the next generation of “EOS Movies.”


The announcement coincides with the launch of the Cinema EOS System, marking Canon’s full-fledged entry into the digital high-resolution production industry. The new professional digital cinematography system spans the lens, digital cinema camera and digital SLR camera product categories.


Further details regarding the new EOS digital SLR camera currently under development, including the product name, specifications and scheduled launch date, have yet to be decided.


EOS Movie: A New Industry Standard

Movie recording has been a standard feature in all newly introduced Canon EOS-series digital SLR cameras since the launch of the EOS 5D Mark II in November 2008. Coupled with the diverse array of lenses in Canon’s current interchangeable EF lens lineup, this feature has heralded rich visual expressive possibilities, delivering such characteristics as beautiful image blur and low noise while also garnering kudos for the mobility and maneuverability made possible through the cameras’ compact and lightweight body designs.


The impressive images created by the combination of Canon EOS digital SLR cameras and EF lenses, known as “EOS Movies,” have already earned their screen credentials on the sets of multiple productions, from television commercials and artist promotion videos to episodic dramas and even major motion pictures.


cr


 


Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: Justin on November 03, 2011, 08:57:42 PM
It just keeps getting more interesting. Wish it were a small format body though, sans grip. I don't understand why the sensor would only record the size of an APS-H for video in 4k though.
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: AvTvM on November 03, 2011, 09:07:10 PM
probably because the new "cine"-Lenses [especially 30-300, 14.5-60] will only cover a Super 35 = roughly APS-H image circle.
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: coltsfreak18 on November 03, 2011, 09:10:14 PM
probably because the new "cine"-Lenses [especially 30-300, 14.5-60] will only cover a Super 35 = roughly APS-H image circle.
Each lens supports 4K (4096 x 2160 pixels) resolution, which delivers a pixel count four times that of Full HD (1920 x 1080 pixels), and offers compatibility with industry-standard Super 35 mm-equivalent cameras as well as APS-C cameras.*1 (Not compatible with 35mm full-frame or APS-H camera sensors.).

It seems as if the zooms are not compatible with either full frame or APS-H, but are compatible with APS-C and Super35.
The primes, however, are compatible with everything full frame and below.  They still seem to be great lenses for APS-C cameras, like the 7d2.
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: dr croubie on November 03, 2011, 09:16:21 PM
Good, a cinema camera that's as unwieldy as a 1D to hold and film with, lots of 3rd-party rig-makers are going to be happy.

Now that all that video silliness is out of the way can we please have a nice, simple, cheap FF camera without raw video, with superb AF, without 10fps, for those of us who actually like Photography?
Also, a 1D4 replacement with 10fps, superb AF, and higher pixel density than the 1D4 for the wildlifers of us who are getting ignored right now? (even a 7D2 with 18MP in APS-C if it had better AF, better sealing, more durability, and the IQ of the 1D4 would be nice.)
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: elusive1 on November 03, 2011, 09:23:33 PM
This is great news. I just hope it comes out soon. As for DSLRs being unwieldy vs traditional video cameras, I don't think that's true at all. I've owned and used a number of cine and video cameras over the years, and the DSLR form factor is so great for handheld stuff compared to the traditional video cameras.

Philip Bloom mentioned that he does not prefer the form factor of the new-ish Sony FS100 or the Panasonic AF 101 video cams because you need a rig for it and it's very difficult to shoot handheld.

Personally, I really prefer the DSLR form factor for video. It's easy to hold, stealthy and just more fun to shoot with.

I wonder how much it's going to cost? Probably really expensive, but I'd gladly pay for something like a DSLR / video hybrid that works well.
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: Son of Daguerre on November 03, 2011, 09:25:24 PM
To those who thought it was an EOS-1D X (myself among their number), I don't think they're wrong.

Remember Canon's "special-edition" (and über-expensive) studio version of the EOS 7D? I think this is the same idea - a modified version of the EOS-1D X (although it will probably be a greater departure from the mainstream EOS-1D X than the Studio Version EOS 7D was to the standard EOS 7D, I think it will be basically the same concept - a video-oriented DSLR based in form and function on the EOS-1D X).
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: Justin on November 03, 2011, 09:26:04 PM
I wonder how much this new camera will eat into the profits of the 20,000 rig. We probably won't see it till around the same July time frame as the C primes.
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: Zuuyi on November 03, 2011, 09:30:30 PM
Good, a cinema camera that's as unwieldy as a 1D to hold and film with, lots of 3rd-party rig-makers are going to be happy.

Now that all that video silliness is out of the way can we please have a nice, simple, cheap FF camera without raw video, with superb AF, without 10fps, for those of us who actually like Photography?
Also, a 1D4 replacement with 10fps, superb AF, and higher pixel density than the 1D4 for the wildlifers of us who are getting ignored right now? (even a 7D2 with 18MP in APS-C if it had better AF, better sealing, more durability, and the IQ of the 1D4 would be nice.)

I like video, BUT.

I want a FF Camera meant for Still Photography.  I don't need more than 4fps; I want 30MP but 18MP is fine.  I just want a new 5D.  Not for me to buy; but so that the 5D2 get's put back on CLP and that I can get it for $1600 or less.
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: neuroanatomist on November 03, 2011, 09:32:08 PM
Good, a cinema camera that's as unwieldy as a 1D to hold and film with, lots of 3rd-party rig-makers are going to be happy.

Now that all that video silliness is out of the way can we please have a nice, simple, cheap FF camera without raw video, with superb AF, without 10fps, for those of us who actually like Photography?
Also, a 1D4 replacement with 10fps, superb AF, and higher pixel density than the 1D4 for the wildlifers of us who are getting ignored right now? (even a 7D2 with 18MP in APS-C if it had better AF, better sealing, more durability, and the IQ of the 1D4 would be nice.)

Sorry, but in a word, "no."   :P
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: sandro on November 03, 2011, 09:38:06 PM
after 3y they finally admitted to do line skipping
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: marekjoz on November 03, 2011, 09:44:28 PM
"(...) new-concept EOS-series digital single-lens reflex (SLR) camera". It means for me, that it's not going to be 5mdk3. The are to split still and video. 5dmk3 in terms of still will probably be focused on still photography (36MP and so on) with limited video capabilities. New C line (and new FF video camera, yet under development) will be focused on video, with limited photography capabilities.

As far as this forum was for assumptions and rumors, I could speculate, that the EOS hierarchy could look like this in the future

STILL photography line
5d3 - middle market, 1d(whatever new, not mentioned yet) - top model for studio
7d2 - middle market, 1dx - top model for sports, nature
the rest

VIDEO Line
C300 - high end (as far)
EOS "C" FF (under development) - middle market
EOS "C" super 35 (not mentioned) - low market
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: Meh on November 03, 2011, 09:53:35 PM
I don't understand why the sensor would only record the size of an APS-H for video in 4k though.

Probably because the centre of the sensor (an area approximately APS-H size) is the exact number of pixels for 4K video recording without doing any line skipping or pixel binning.   They said approx. 80% so 4000/0.8=5000 and using 3:2 ratio that gives a 16.7MP FF sensor.  They said "approximately" so that could mean it's the 1DX sensor (18MP).
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: mkln on November 03, 2011, 10:08:44 PM
$6800 for every single one of the primes?
WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT?

and I thought I could consider them for still photography use.
haha.
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: Zuuyi on November 03, 2011, 10:33:45 PM
So the Scarlet X comes out Nov 17 - PL Mount & Dec 1 - EF Mount.  S35 Sensor. 4k Video 24/25fps 2k video 50/60fps 1k video 120fps.  And $14,000 for a full kit. $9750 for just the body.  So within hours the C300 has become overpriced old technology.

They knew this would happen but I guess they forgot James Jannard was that crazy.  I will buy a Scarlet if he throws in his 1200mm/5.6L.

Edit: 12fps Stills also.
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: Policar on November 03, 2011, 11:05:23 PM
Is this the exact same design, form-wise, as the 1DX?  If so, it's probably almost the same camera but with upgraded firmware and a considerably higher price...  APS-H is also an annoying crop factor for video.  Super35 is much closer to APS-C and there are fast wide zooms for crop bodies.

I want the APS-C cinema camera!

To those fawning after the Red...sure, it looks nice, but the poor color rendering, impossible proprietary workflow, and constantly-in-need-of-updates software make the camera a nightmare, imo, to use.  Canon's footage has nicer skin tones than I've ever seen out of a Red.  There's a reason so much tv is shot with the Alexa, rather than the red, and why dSLRs are used on ads--1080p with nice and standardized colors out of camera is much better for post.  Red is cool, but what you get in terms of extra tech you pay for in having to figure out how to use it efficiently.  Canon's cine camera does seem overpriced for what you get, though--in that no man's land the AF100 and F3 already inhabit except even more expensive...
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: adamfilip on November 03, 2011, 11:15:01 PM
I wonder how much this new camera will eat into the profits of the 20,000 rig. We probably won't see it till around the same July time frame as the C primes.

Considering the zooms are $47k each.. im not sure it matters
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: Zuuyi on November 03, 2011, 11:16:41 PM
I'm not touching a Red camera. But it's just really sad that you can get a Red camera with possibly better specs for 6k less; and still use EF lenses.

It will also be available before the Canon;  so Canon needs to hurry up and release the C DSLR and take back some of the buzz.

I'm getting a 5d2 (once the 5d3 comes) or a 7d2 when it comes out.  So this is just something for me to look at while I'm waiting.
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: theuserjohnny on November 03, 2011, 11:25:04 PM
"(...) new-concept EOS-series digital single-lens reflex (SLR) camera". It means for me, that it's not going to be 5mdk3. The are to split still and video. 5dmk3 in terms of still will probably be focused on still photography (36MP and so on) with limited video capabilities. New C line (and new FF video camera, yet under development) will be focused on video, with limited photography capabilities.

As far as this forum was for assumptions and rumors, I could speculate, that the EOS hierarchy could look like this in the future

STILL photography line
5d3 - middle market, 1d(whatever new, not mentioned yet) - top model for studio
7d2 - middle market, 1dx - top model for sports, nature
the rest

VIDEO Line
C300 - high end (as far)
EOS "C" FF (under development) - middle market
EOS "C" super 35 (not mentioned) - low market

Pretty much agree with this. This new line of video DSLRs just means the 5D and 7D will go back to being stills camera (with the current limited video features) and this new line will have the video features that 5D/7D shooters have been looking for (but with limited stills features or if anything all the still features).

The only downfall is that I think this will range in the low 5k-7k. I would be very surprised if its in the 2k-3k.
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: dr croubie on November 03, 2011, 11:49:16 PM
To be honest, i'd never even heard of RED before i started to read these and other forums a while back, i'm a photographer not a cinematographer.

But I am, however, an Electronic Engineer. And i've seen it time and again, in competitors as well as my own products, when the salesmen push the dates forward to get a product out earlier, (despite our protests that it's not ready), that in the end a half-finished product comes out and does the brand name more harm than good (and especially made more work for me as the service engineer at my last job).

Without knowing anything about RED or their products or how they operate, I'm envisaging an unfortunate parallel. After canon announced the Nov3 date, then RED announced their Nov3 date for a few hours later. Then on Nov3, canon announced January next year, now Red announce December or whatever.
I do hope for their sake that they're not rushing out a not-quite-complete product just to one-up on canon's timings...
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: RichST on November 04, 2011, 12:00:49 AM
They said "approximately" so that could mean it's the 1DX sensor (18MP).

Exactly what I was thinking, the 1DX can get to 14fps in full-frame mode so a 4K "crop mode" should be able to make it to 24fps. Saves them from having to design two new sensors
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: Meh on November 04, 2011, 12:01:49 AM
At only 8.3MP for the FF sensor, if they've used all of their most recent tech with this sensor, then it should have very good DR.

Why do you think this concept DSLR video camera has an 8.3MP FF sensor.  The 8.3MP is the resolution of the Super35 size sensor in the C 300.

The layout of the sensor is 1920x1080x4 (RGBG)

Not quite.  The red and blue pixels are 1920x1080.  The green pixels are 1920x2160.   But ok, you could look at like 1920x1080x4.
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: Axilrod on November 04, 2011, 12:12:40 AM
I think the prototype DSLR will be more of a competitor with the Scarlett, depending on what it costs, but I'm guessing it will be substantially less and Canon is going to go for moving alot of volume.
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: Masterwana on November 04, 2011, 02:32:43 AM
You told us a time ago, that there is a possible split of the 5D MKIII, one for photo and one for films.
So i think this would be the "5D" for the moviemakers.
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: Edwin Herdman on November 04, 2011, 02:38:17 AM
Pay close attention to all of the distance markers around the focus adjustment.
Or just compare the 30-300's T-stops (which tend to be slower than rated aperture, since even clear glass blocks incoming light) to the rated aperture of a lens like the 28-300mm, and also factor in that the lens performance has to be superior in characteristics to hold up for 4K video, and also factor in pricing for other zoom lenses in this range.

It was silly of me yesterday to mention use of these lenses for stills photography, because these will certainly be unwieldy enough that they will be very hard to use for that purpose.  That alone (before considering the price) is enough to sink the proposition of using them for a stills camera, and you can't add autofocus as a selling point, either.

It's hard not to be impressed by the specifications of the prime lenses and want to use them as manual focus lenses.  11-bladed aperture, and fast apertures!  Looks lovely...I'd better start saving up.
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: dr croubie on November 04, 2011, 03:23:45 AM
Or just compare the 30-300's T-stops (which tend to be slower than rated aperture, since even clear glass blocks incoming light) to the rated aperture of a lens like the 28-300mm, and also factor in that the lens performance has to be superior in characteristics to hold up for 4K video, and also factor in pricing for other zoom lenses in this range.

It's pretty much an EFs 30-300 f/2.8-3.5. That may sound like something you'd hear from Tamron or so, but if it delivers where it counts (no distortion, no focus-shift stopping down, 11-blade circular aperture), it's probably worth the price to those who need it. Eventually I'm sure it might become the travel-lens of choice for some whackjob with too much money and a fixed luggage-limit.
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: bobek on November 04, 2011, 03:31:51 AM
BTW if you check the liveblogpost on Engadged:

http://www.engadget.com/2011/11/03/the-canon-hollywood-event-liveblog/

you will see this shot of slide, which has been presented to the audience:

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2011/11/201111036053.jpg

that looks very much as 5D3 to me.
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: dr croubie on November 04, 2011, 03:41:25 AM
Looks like "Mark II" written on it to me, that was in the slides where they were talking about history, and how innovative canon was at introducing everything first and whatnot...
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: CJRodgers on November 04, 2011, 05:09:07 AM
Sorry if this is a really dumb question, but will this be able to take stills aswell? I just havent seen anything about it?
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: dr croubie on November 04, 2011, 05:32:07 AM
Sorry if this is a really dumb question, but will this be able to take stills aswell? I just havent seen anything about it?
I've used a really cheap plastic fit-in-your-hand digital HD camcorder (sharp or panasonic or sony or something), and That took stills, so i'm going to presume this one does too (the 1DX shaped one at least), or it's a very very silly idea not to.
(although, I said the same thing about the 1DX and f/8 and that turned out to be a missing feature.)
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: Edwin Herdman on November 04, 2011, 05:44:51 AM
Or just compare the 30-300's T-stops (which tend to be slower than rated aperture, since even clear glass blocks incoming light) to the rated aperture of a lens like the 28-300mm, and also factor in that the lens performance has to be superior in characteristics to hold up for 4K video, and also factor in pricing for other zoom lenses in this range.

It's pretty much an EFs 30-300 f/2.8-3.5. That may sound like something you'd hear from Tamron or so, but if it delivers where it counts (no distortion, no focus-shift stopping down, 11-blade circular aperture), it's probably worth the price to those who need it. Eventually I'm sure it might become the travel-lens of choice for some whackjob with too much money and a fixed luggage-limit.
Again, if you are going to claim this is f/2.8-3.5 you need to back it up because you're stating something that seems physically impossible - the lens having a smaller aperture than its T-stop rating permits.  An EF (EFs?) 30-300mm would cut some corners compared to this lens, even if it were a constant f/2.8.  No, nobody has released one, including Tamron:  I don't know of any fast-aperture lens that goes from 30-300mm (a "10x zoom") while keeping a fast aperture.  In stills photography this lens would certainly be something special - in movie production, it's "just another zoom" as far as the specs go - although apparently a very good one.

This lens will be heavy and won't fill in as a travel lens, unless manual focus is A-OK.  Could be if you were mainly shooting crowds and landscapes, as opposed to tracking movement (doesn't seem totally absurd).  I'm guessing it'll be well over six pounds - possibly significantly more.
Sorry if this is a really dumb question, but will this be able to take stills aswell? I just havent seen anything about it?
I've used a really cheap plastic fit-in-your-hand digital HD camcorder (sharp or panasonic or sony or something), and That took stills, so i'm going to presume this one does too (the 1DX shaped one at least), or it's a very very silly idea not to.
(although, I said the same thing about the 1DX and f/8 and that turned out to be a missing feature.)
The 1D X's missing physical features don't tell us anything about virtual features - the marketing of video DSLRs.  Releasing a video DSLR that doesn't take stills would be a waste of time for Canon - better to release one camera that does two things well than to release two things that do just one thing well (and if you were releasing a camera for video it would probably look more like a medium format camera with a handle and better ergonomics and hardpoints for that use).

As far as the video-only market is concerned, this newly announced camera is it (the 1D X will represent the "bargain" camera in that segment - but Canon seems clearly able to differentiate video quality of the 1D X from cheaper models because they seem to need both DIGIC V+ CPUs to process the full-frame data, so there isn't really anything artificial about this distinction).
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: Jettatore on November 04, 2011, 06:05:09 AM
I'm extremely disappointed by this announcement.  These are the features many of us wanted, but they should just be part of the evolution of DSLR.  Canon is forcefully separating camps into (likely highly expensive line of equipment) which really goes directly AGAINST the reason DSLR video had such widespread success in the first place.  Pro-equipment being affordable (or at least with-in reach) in the hands of the masses was largely the point and this seems to miss that entirely.

They just fractured a business model that was working perfectly for them.  I fear they have done something quite so very stupid.  If this doesn't interfere with the natural progression DSLR video was on, then fine, no harm no foul, but only time will tell, and I've smelled this smell before.  It's a distinct smell.

I'm not at all impressed, the 5D Mark III and the 7D Mark II (and probably even the 1DX) should be/have been launched with 4k capability, as it's quite essentially useful for editing 1080p format.  It allows the editor the ability to re-crop and or pan the image and as well use digital image stabilization and then have some room around the frame to crop after stabilizing the content.  Similarly, higher than needed framerates, etc. etc., all things Canon could have been working on and figuring out for our replacement models instead of this....

The sensors on DSLR are already capable of 4k pixel wise, and so are the lenses.  Regardless, I'm going to have to simply ignore all the new products, let Hollywood blow their wad on it, I just hope it doesn't interfere with one of the main reasons I got into Canon DSLR video in the first place.  I'm not happy or excited, in fact I feel kind of used and stupid for playing along.  Time will tell, but if they don't eventually release the features we need on the budgets we have someone else will, and then where will they be?

p.s. I am not going to waste precious budget splitting my photography and film needs across multiple product lines, why do you think I got a DSLR?  Oh and, I'm already sick of the new marketing term "EOS Movie".

This has been your negatively honest announcement for the day, enjoy your breakfast.
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: dr croubie on November 04, 2011, 06:23:53 AM
Again, if you are going to claim this is f/2.8-3.5 you need to back it up because you're stating something that seems physically impossible - the lens having a smaller aperture than its T-stop rating permits.
Is that not how T-stop ratings work, T>f? ie DXOmark gives the EF 24 f/1.4 Lii (http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Lenses/Camera-Lens-Database/Canon/Canon-EF-24mm-F14L-II-USM/%28camera%29/436) a Tstop rating of 1.6, and the 17-55 f/2.8 (http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Lenses/Camera-Lens-Database/Canon/EF-S-17-55-f-2.8-IS-USM/%28camera%29/619) has a T-stop of 3.4. At T2.95-3.7, I just guessed the new lens would have f/2.8-3.5, could be a lot wider aperture.
An "ideal" lens would have T=f, impossible is T<f? Or maybe i'm backwards, it's late.
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: Drama79 on November 04, 2011, 06:53:42 AM
I'd agree with several of these posts. I'll be very interested to see price point and uptake. It would seem that Canon have missed the point slightly, in that the enthusiasm for DSLR film making is from people who value a camera that can do both, and don't have the money to split their interests across two product lines.

If this is a high end product, aimed at Hollywood, then fine. I have a feeling though, that this might be one of those Canon eccentricities that never really finds it's desired market.

As a 7D lover (yes, really) I want to go full frame, but love the multiple options presented by the camera. It remains to be seen which of the 7D2 or the 5D3 offer better content. At this rate, I can't imagine much more than extra processors and a subtle refresh, unless the 7 get's cannablised into the 5D line.
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: Jettatore on November 04, 2011, 07:07:34 AM
I might agree with your Canon eccentricities comment -Drama.  And can someone tell me why they have to release both a PL and an EF model at $20,000 each???  LOL, you mean to tell me the tech wizards at canon couldn't design one with a modular/swapable mount.  Pop out the EF mount and swap it for a PL mount?  Really not inspiring confidence here guys...
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: dr croubie on November 04, 2011, 07:23:38 AM
I might agree with your Canon eccentricities comment -Drama.  And can someone tell me why they have to release both a PL and an EF model at $20,000 each???  LOL, you mean to tell me the tech wizards at canon couldn't design one with a modular/swapable mount.  Pop out the EF mount and swap it for a PL mount?  Really not inspiring confidence here guys...

Or not even that, EF mount is 44mm, PL mount is 52mm. I can go to ebay right now and get a $10 adapter to mount a PL lens on my 7D. Anyone who buys the PL-mount C300 is locking themselves out of the EF-mount for not much benefit, but anyone who buys the EF-mount can use EF *and* PL (and not to mention, nikon, Olympus OM, pentax, M42, all Medium Format) lenses.
The only reason I can see for releasing a PL-mount C300 is to keep all the hollywood types (who don't understand much about mounts except for "i must have PL mount") happy.
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: Jettatore on November 04, 2011, 07:31:00 AM
Yeah, good point.
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: ferdi on November 04, 2011, 07:45:17 AM
I'm extremely disappointed by this announcement.
I'm not. New mainly-for-still camera models are likely to inherit some useful features like a built-in ND filter, 3 second pre-record cache and hot-pluggable CF cards.

I'm not at all impressed, the 5D Mark III and the 7D Mark II (and probably even the 1DX) should be/have been launched with << insert feature wish list here >>
Yes, and all that for max 2500 dollars right?

why do you think I got a DSLR?
Why don't you tell us? If you wanted 4k/120fps, you shouldn't have bought a 7D or 5DII.
Quote from Larry Thorpe:
"The 5D Mark II is a hybrid - it is first and foremost a DSLR, and then we added video capability at minimal cost initially with people like Associated Press and Reuters in mind."

I can go to ebay right now and get a $10 adapter to mount a PL lens on my 7D.
Do you have infinity focus with it? How about focus confirmation and correct aperture reporting?
For now their is no price difference between EF and PL mount so why even bother?
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: CJRodgers on November 04, 2011, 07:46:54 AM
Yeah i thought it would take stills, im just wondering if theyre concentrating so much on video for this, how many features would be missing for stills. Or will it be an incredible hybrid.
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: dr croubie on November 04, 2011, 07:53:08 AM
Do you have infinity focus with it? How about focus confirmation and correct aperture reporting?
For now their is no price difference between EF and PL mount so why even bother?

Infinity focus yes, focus confirmation via a chip if you really want. (but seeing as this new C300 won't have dslr-type AF that doesn't matter)
Do PL-mounts have aperture reporting through electronic contacts either?

Why bother, is that directed to the PL- or EF-mount?
If i'm a filmmaker, I can take a C300 with EF mount out into the middle of Africa with an EF 1200 f/5.6 L IS and get some really good film from safe distances, or I can stick on the fisheye, or the 50 f/1.0, or 70 other lenses, *and* I can mount my expensive PL-mount lenses on the same camera.

If I buy the C300 PL-mount I can mount PL-lenses only.
Which is the better deal?
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: wockawocka on November 04, 2011, 08:03:35 AM
But will it blend?
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: Jettatore on November 04, 2011, 08:05:58 AM
We will see what Generation 2 and Generation 3 of DSLR video bring Ferdi.  I do understand the other side of the argument, but, lenses aside, we have better digital sensors in our cell phones than the first few generations of fairly expensive digital cameras could offer, that's just the nature of technology.

The price point of these offerings, put this head to head with the likes of Sony RED cams and other high end video equipment.  That's the kind of stuff most studios rent in the first place and at least this helps merge compatibility with the stuff the likes of us can afford to own full time.

Price alone really dictates that I have nothing to do with this stuff, and realistically I don't want it.  What I am concerned about is, will they "leave out features" on purpose only to make their high end offerings seem more reasonable?  Perhaps not, and if they do, it will leave an opening for Panasonic and others.

I mean, we do have a bunch of stuff stifling tech now a days, you gotta at least give me that.  How about, "can't have more than 15 minutes of video (or whatever it was) because there's a UK tax if we do that" kind of BS.  But the biggest things stifling technology, is that we are mostly just consumers of it, and behind the hoods, other than general concepts of what is going on, we are basically the modern day equivalent of illiterates. 
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: Meh on November 04, 2011, 09:04:21 AM
Again, if you are going to claim this is f/2.8-3.5 you need to back it up because you're stating something that seems physically impossible - the lens having a smaller aperture than its T-stop rating permits.
Is that not how T-stop ratings work, T>f? ie DXOmark gives the EF 24 f/1.4 Lii (http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Lenses/Camera-Lens-Database/Canon/Canon-EF-24mm-F14L-II-USM/%28camera%29/436) a Tstop rating of 1.6, and the 17-55 f/2.8 (http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Lenses/Camera-Lens-Database/Canon/EF-S-17-55-f-2.8-IS-USM/%28camera%29/619) has a T-stop of 3.4. At T2.95-3.7, I just guessed the new lens would have f/2.8-3.5, could be a lot wider aperture.
An "ideal" lens would have T=f, impossible is T<f? Or maybe i'm backwards, it's late.

I believe that's correct.  A T-stop can be measured for any lens, it is common for cine-lens where very precise control and consistency of the exposure is required.  For any lens, the T-stop is the equivalent f-stop if the lens had zero transmission loss.  Therefore the T-stop is always higher (larger number) than the f-stop of the lens.
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: smirkypants on November 04, 2011, 09:13:56 AM
Kind of reminds me of when all the Mac sites started talking all the time about the iPhone. I mean sure, great... related product. I had a Mac and didn't have an iPhone. I didn't care about an iPhone. I went to the sites for the coverage of Macs.
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: ferdi on November 04, 2011, 09:37:37 AM
Sorry if this is a really dumb question, but will this be able to take stills aswell? I just havent seen anything about it?
Larry Thorpe: "You can, but only in HD - 1920 x 1080 pixels. So it won't be as good as a still that you'd get from the 5D Mark II, obviously. But it's a decent picture and you can record stills to SDHC cards, which slot in the side of the camera. You've got CompactFlash for motion imaging but you can record stills to SDHC. "

Do you have infinity focus with it? How about focus confirmation and correct aperture reporting?
Infinity focus yes, focus confirmation via a chip if you really want. (but seeing as this new C300 won't have dslr-type AF that doesn't matter)
Do PL-mounts have aperture reporting through electronic contacts either?
Lack of AF doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't confirm focus.
I'm not sure about the PL-mount specs, you could be right about it not reporting the aperture.

For now their is no price difference between EF and PL mount so why even bother?
Why bother, is that directed to the PL- or EF-mount?
If i'm a filmmaker, I can take a C300 with EF mount out into the middle of Africa with an EF 1200 f/5.6 L IS and get some really good film from safe distances, or I can stick on the fisheye, or the 50 f/1.0, or 70 other lenses, *and* I can mount my expensive PL-mount lenses on the same camera.
I meant: why bother putting on an adapter if Canon provides a PL mount for the same price (although a bit later)? Now that you told us you have both EF and PL mount lenses it makes more sense. I guess the C300 is for movie makers with just PL-mount lenses.
Let's see what Larry Thorpe had to say about it:

"Frankly I think that the genius was to make two versions - an EF version and a PL, and recognize that we have a gigantic constituency of EF users worldwide [...] so they can play with their existing lenses, and then that other gigantic worldwide constituency of PL mounts uses. There's a huge inventory of those lenses out there that people own, and are held by rental agencies - people can just buy the C300 and use their favorite lenses on it. So we're really addressing two big constituencies."
(source: http://www.dpreview.com/articles/7685106578/canon-eos-c300-launch-interview-with-larry-thorpe)

Offtopic: You have a 1200L with IS?  ;D

What I am concerned about is, will they "leave out features" on purpose only to make their high end offerings seem more reasonable?
I hope not, but I am afraid that's how marketing/sales works.
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: KitH on November 04, 2011, 09:41:27 AM
I might agree with your Canon eccentricities comment -Drama.  And can someone tell me why they have to release both a PL and an EF model at $20,000 each???  LOL, you mean to tell me the tech wizards at canon couldn't design one with a modular/swapable mount.  Pop out the EF mount and swap it for a PL mount?  Really not inspiring confidence here guys...

Or not even that, EF mount is 44mm, PL mount is 52mm. I can go to ebay right now and get a $10 adapter to mount a PL lens on my 7D. Anyone who buys the PL-mount C300 is locking themselves out of the EF-mount for not much benefit, but anyone who buys the EF-mount can use EF *and* PL (and not to mention, nikon, Olympus OM, pentax, M42, all Medium Format) lenses.
The only reason I can see for releasing a PL-mount C300 is to keep all the hollywood types (who don't understand much about mounts except for "i must have PL mount") happy.

There's a bit more to it that just swapping mounts, if you want to keep the focus scale (and we're talking to people who use tape measures and depth of field tables here) then here's a link to Zeiss' take on swapping mounts.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6807EKs1SU They have to take special care to align and calibrate each lens to each camera and insert slender shims to make it exact.  Ten minute job if you're good.

Zeiss Compact Primes are basically the familiar lenses we know from 35mm rehoused in cine compatible barrels and with smoother apertures and accurate distance scales.  They have to be all the same size to fit the focusing mechanisms used by the focus puller (yes, that's a skilled job in itself). 

The new Canon primes sound to me like our fast EF L-primes, similarly rehoused, going from 24mm f1.4 to 24mm T1.5, and 50mm and 85 f1.2 to T1.3 and without AF.  Noted Canon doesn't really shout about these ones being all-new designs. 

The difference between f stop and T stop was once explained to me as f is for people who like buying lenses, T is for people who like to stop the swearing in edit suites because of inconsistent exposure with different lenses.

On balance, reading a lot of the announcements and discussion, much of what Canon has done here is listen to the people who have to pay for post-production and do everything they can to avoid additional work on the images.   I've heard (someone from a big studio, can't recall which one)  the cost savings of shooting films for TV with a 5DII is taken out by increased post-processing work needed.

On the other hand, they may simply be taking the battle to Zeiss, who could be giving them cause for concern through their cosy relationship with Sony. 

On the splitting camera lines into stills and video, there may be some business justification there.  Broadcast rights and still image rights to big events (like the FIFA World Cup) are sold separately.  These are huge content deals and there were rumblings in South Africa about the photographers upsetting the broadcasters by pitching up with cameras shooting HD material just as easily as taking stills.   




Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: CJRodgers on November 04, 2011, 10:00:53 AM
Sorry if this is a really dumb question, but will this be able to take stills aswell? I just havent seen anything about it?
Larry Thorpe: "You can, but only in HD - 1920 x 1080 pixels. So it won't be as good as a still that you'd get from the 5D Mark II, obviously. But it's a decent picture and you can record stills to SDHC cards, which slot in the side of the camera. You've got CompactFlash for motion imaging but you can record stills to SDHC. "


oh right, so it would be low res photos. So not at all for stills people really, or even people that want half and half. Its very much more geared to just advacnced video. So do you think the 5dmkiii would be more balanced inbetween video quality and stills.
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: Axilrod on November 04, 2011, 10:35:55 AM
I might agree with your Canon eccentricities comment -Drama.  And can someone tell me why they have to release both a PL and an EF model at $20,000 each???  LOL, you mean to tell me the tech wizards at canon couldn't design one with a modular/swapable mount.  Pop out the EF mount and swap it for a PL mount?  Really not inspiring confidence here guys...

Or not even that, EF mount is 44mm, PL mount is 52mm. I can go to ebay right now and get a $10 adapter to mount a PL lens on my 7D. Anyone who buys the PL-mount C300 is locking themselves out of the EF-mount for not much benefit, but anyone who buys the EF-mount can use EF *and* PL (and not to mention, nikon, Olympus OM, pentax, M42, all Medium Format) lenses.
The only reason I can see for releasing a PL-mount C300 is to keep all the hollywood types (who don't understand much about mounts except for "i must have PL mount") happy.

There's a bit more to it that just swapping mounts, if you want to keep the focus scale (and we're talking to people who use tape measures and depth of field tables here) then here's a link to Zeiss' take on swapping mounts.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6807EKs1SU They have to take special care to align and calibrate each lens to each camera and insert slender shims to make it exact.  Ten minute job if you're good.

Zeiss Compact Primes are basically the familiar lenses we know from 35mm rehoused in cine compatible barrels and with smoother apertures and accurate distance scales.  They have to be all the same size to fit the focusing mechanisms used by the focus puller (yes, that's a skilled job in itself). 

The new Canon primes sound to me like our fast EF L-primes, similarly rehoused, going from 24mm f1.4 to 24mm T1.5, and 50mm and 85 f1.2 to T1.3 and without AF.  Noted Canon doesn't really shout about these ones being all-new designs. 

The difference between f stop and T stop was once explained to me as f is for people who like buying lenses, T is for people who like to stop the swearing in edit suites because of inconsistent exposure with different lenses.

On balance, reading a lot of the announcements and discussion, much of what Canon has done here is listen to the people who have to pay for post-production and do everything they can to avoid additional work on the images.   I've heard (someone from a big studio, can't recall which one)  the cost savings of shooting films for TV with a 5DII is taken out by increased post-processing work needed.

On the other hand, they may simply be taking the battle to Zeiss, who could be giving them cause for concern through their cosy relationship with Sony. 

On the splitting camera lines into stills and video, there may be some business justification there.  Broadcast rights and still image rights to big events (like the FIFA World Cup) are sold separately.  These are huge content deals and there were rumblings in South Africa about the photographers upsetting the broadcasters by pitching up with cameras shooting HD material just as easily as taking stills.

For $6800/each it better be something more than an old L lens in a new housing
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: Axilrod on November 04, 2011, 10:38:28 AM
I'd agree with several of these posts. I'll be very interested to see price point and uptake. It would seem that Canon have missed the point slightly, in that the enthusiasm for DSLR film making is from people who value a camera that can do both, and don't have the money to split their interests across two product lines.

If this is a high end product, aimed at Hollywood, then fine. I have a feeling though, that this might be one of those Canon eccentricities that never really finds it's desired market.

It is a higher end product than than their DSLRs.

Canon sees these cameras as being something to compete with the cheaper(?) Arri cameras.

The C300 cameras are not and were not targeted at people who take photographs. Yes, maybe they can, but nothing about their specifications or look says that to me. The C300s have neither automatic focus nor automatic exposure.

For those that are using the 5D2 or 7D to shoot video, I think the concept cinema DSLR is the one to watch for.

Now where will that get priced? Interesting question.

I can easily see it being more than a 5D2. More than the 1DX? Hard to say without knowing the full feature set. It could easily be $4k-$5k or more if it brings with it an increase in performance that results in requiring less post processing (time is money.)

I agree, the C300 is clearly geared towards industry professionals/independent filmmakers.  Canon knows it needs a product to move in volume, and a Cinema DSLR priced around $3500-$5k would be just that, and that's what I'm waiting for.
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: KitH on November 04, 2011, 11:15:16 AM



For $6800/each it better be something more than an old L lens in a new housing


Exactly...   A great cine lens and a great DSLR lens have different priorities.   Here are a few that matter to Cine. 

No focus shift - when we say 20ft, we mean 20ft.
No curvature of field - again, so the plane of focus is where it says it is.
Edge to edge sharpness - unthinkable to shoot the opening sequence of WITNESS (the wide landscape where the grasses ripple in the wind)  with a lens that's soft in the corners.
No lens breathing when pulling focus - we need to shift focus mid-shot to direct attention at the action.  If the framing changes with focusing distance or the focus then that's not great. 
We want an image that "pops" when it's sharp, especially in dialogue scenes or crowded city street scenes, again to direct attention.  This is one reason directors like the "Zeissy" look.  Some say it's "microcontrast", whatever that is.  I'll go with "pops". 
No color fringing whatever.  Tidying up a single slide in post production is one thing, 25fps multiplied by hours and  hours of shot footage is entirely different.  Superachromats preferred.
Don't have to worry about pixel peepers as much in a movie.
Apertures with lots of rounded blades, to give perfectly round specular blurs.  Smooth (non-clicky) aperture controls because intermediate values are often used.

Huge zoom ratios at constant T stop, 10x is a good starting point.  100x lens ratios for TV cameras do exist.  Did the designers of the  new zooms choose to give up the full-frame image circle in return for some other characteristic - like no breathing or a constant T. number?

I didn't mention focus staying constant while zooming (which stills photographers like),  we try to avoid those, they're nauseating, unless you're Spielberg and it's a 45 second travelling shot from a crane.

I'll be interested to see how many of these characteristics we'll get for our $6800. 

It's been said these are low production run lenses.  I see a large market coming from the roll-out of multichannel digital TV and IPTV across Asia-Pac countries to make quite a useful business that Canon won't less pass them.  It's less Hollywood, more Bollywood, China and SE Asia.
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: gene_can_sing on November 04, 2011, 11:18:37 AM
I actually think the hybrid DSLR / Video will be a huge seller.

1) It will be a very good, full frame stills camera. Probably limited to 12 mp for stills, since that's about the max / ideal mp for good 4K video. For me 12k stills is perfectly fine. I'm sure with Digic V, the still will be top quality.

2) Unlike some people have mentioned, I'm sure you have the option of shooting 2K or 4K video. You don't have to just shoot 4K. Even the current DSLRs give you and SD or HD option.

3) The reason why I like this is because it's more an all around solution. I love Full Frame video (only Canon offers this), yet with this upcoming DSLR, you can still do cool stills oriented stuff like Time Lapse photography (which you can't do with video cameras); and yes, take good photos.

4) It probably won't have the 1Dx 64 pt (is that correct?) auto focus and maybe not as high performing ISO, but will probably be a better stills performer than the upcoming 36mp Since it will have lower MP which translates to less noise. I'd be fine with a 7D style auto focus, even if it does have way less points.

That just means, less cameras to carry around. If you can deal with being limited to 12mp, I think this will be a great balance of both worlds. You'll get top performance in stills and a great video camera. Canon realizes that a stills camera mixed with video will sell way more than just a stills camera or just a video camera. Look at the 5D2, probably the first true hybrid. It had to have been one of the biggest money making DSLRs of all time. With the much improved video on the next version, Canon will sell countless bodies.
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: Axilrod on November 04, 2011, 11:45:59 AM
I actually think the hybrid DSLR / Video will be a huge seller.

1) It will be a very good, full frame stills camera. Probably limited to 12 mp for stills, since that's about the max / ideal mp for good 4K video. For me 12k stills is perfectly fine. I'm sure with Digic V, the still will be top quality.

2) Unlike some people have mentioned, I'm sure you have the option of shooting 2K or 4K video. You don't have to just shoot 4K. Even the current DSLRs give you and SD or HD option.

3) The reason why I like this is because it's more an all around solution. I love Full Frame video (only Canon offers this), yet with this upcoming DSLR, you can still do cool stills oriented stuff like Time Lapse photography (which you can't do with video cameras); and yes, take good photos.

4) It probably won't have the 1Dx 64 pt (is that correct?) auto focus and maybe not as high performing ISO, but will probably be a better stills performer than the upcoming 36mp Since it will have lower MP which translates to less noise. I'd be fine with a 7D style auto focus, even if it does have way less points.

That just means, less cameras to carry around. If you can deal with being limited to 12mp, I think this will be a great balance of both worlds. You'll get top performance in stills and a great video camera.

I agree 100%, that is going to be their moneymaker.  Considering the 1Dx is $6800, if you removed some of the still features and added some video features it seems like it would be easy to get it priced around $4k-$6k.
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: CJRodgers on November 04, 2011, 12:39:49 PM
I actually think the hybrid DSLR / Video will be a huge seller.

1) It will be a very good, full frame stills camera. Probably limited to 12 mp for stills, since that's about the max / ideal mp for good 4K video. For me 12k stills is perfectly fine. I'm sure with Digic V, the still will be top quality.

2) Unlike some people have mentioned, I'm sure you have the option of shooting 2K or 4K video. You don't have to just shoot 4K. Even the current DSLRs give you and SD or HD option.

3) The reason why I like this is because it's more an all around solution. I love Full Frame video (only Canon offers this), yet with this upcoming DSLR, you can still do cool stills oriented stuff like Time Lapse photography (which you can't do with video cameras); and yes, take good photos.

4) It probably won't have the 1Dx 64 pt (is that correct?) auto focus and maybe not as high performing ISO, but will probably be a better stills performer than the upcoming 36mp Since it will have lower MP which translates to less noise. I'd be fine with a 7D style auto focus, even if it does have way less points.

That just means, less cameras to carry around. If you can deal with being limited to 12mp, I think this will be a great balance of both worlds. You'll get top performance in stills and a great video camera.

I agree 100%, that is going to be their moneymaker.  Considering the 1Dx is $6800, if you removed some of the still features and added some video features it seems like it would be easy to get it priced around $4k-$6k.


+1, but ideally more like $3500 haha. Or with a good deal on a kit lens i can buy to bring down the cost.
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: Axilrod on November 04, 2011, 01:00:14 PM
For $6800/each it better be something more than an old L lens in a new housing

The value of these lenses is not just in the optics but also being able to set the distance marker for focus at, say, 20', and for the focus to be exactly that each and every time you move the focus ring to that distance.

Normal stills camera lenses (such as the 85/f.1.2) do not have properties such as this.

Yeah I get that, there are definitive focus marks versus just spinning to infinity, better housing, similar size so you don't have to change your rig too much when swapping lenses.  I see the advantages, but damn the Zeiss CP.2 do the same thing and they are almost half the cost.  Don't get me wrong, I think the Canon Cine Primes are BEAUTIFUL, but they seem pricey.  Then again, compared to $47k for the zooms I guess they aren't that bad a deal. 
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: Edwin Herdman on November 04, 2011, 03:21:05 PM
Again, if you are going to claim this is f/2.8-3.5 you need to back it up because you're stating something that seems physically impossible - the lens having a smaller aperture than its T-stop rating permits.
Is that not how T-stop ratings work, T>f? ie DXOmark gives the EF 24 f/1.4 Lii (http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Lenses/Camera-Lens-Database/Canon/Canon-EF-24mm-F14L-II-USM/%28camera%29/436) a Tstop rating of 1.6, and the 17-55 f/2.8 (http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Lenses/Camera-Lens-Database/Canon/EF-S-17-55-f-2.8-IS-USM/%28camera%29/619) has a T-stop of 3.4. At T2.95-3.7, I just guessed the new lens would have f/2.8-3.5, could be a lot wider aperture.
An "ideal" lens would have T=f, impossible is T<f? Or maybe i'm backwards, it's late.

I believe that's correct.  A T-stop can be measured for any lens, it is common for cine-lens where very precise control and consistency of the exposure is required.  For any lens, the T-stop is the equivalent f-stop if the lens had zero transmission loss.  Therefore the T-stop is always higher (larger number) than the f-stop of the lens.
Hmm, I apparently was imagining things.  Right, I don't have a problem with having actual T-stops larger ("narrower" in aperture terms) than the f-stops.  Sorry for the harangue!

As the lens is T=2.95-3.7, starting at f/2.8 seems pretty optimistic, however.  There is more glass in the lens than in the 17-55mm f/2.8, to quote the nice example you gave.  f/2.8 seems like a nice starting point, but the f-number could well be closer to the prime lenses which are T 2.6 (and therefore larger aperture than f/2.8).
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: shenshaw on November 04, 2011, 03:23:04 PM
Re: price...  The writing is on the wall for prices to continue to rise.  They know that they can lure the cinema folks into paying a premium for "cine" products.  I don't see this newer DSLR concept being less expensive than the 1D-X, but at least the same price.

If the c300 is at $20k (albeit with great features), I predict this new DSLR at $10k (RED Scarlet -ish).  Unfortunately. I wish is was ~$4-5k, but that's dreaming.
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: Edwin Herdman on November 04, 2011, 03:26:40 PM
Re: price...  The writing is on the wall for prices to continue to rise.  They know that they can lure the cinema folks into paying a premium for "cine" products.
Well, for video pros it probably doesn't seem that prices are rising.  These prices seem in line with other lenses in the same classes.  EF stills lens users who wanted true PL-style ergonomics and optical corrections at EF mount prices were hoping for too much.
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: DavidRiesenberg on November 04, 2011, 03:37:19 PM
I see the advantages, but damn the Zeiss CP.2 do the same thing and they are almost half the cost.

The CP2s are slower. Take a look at the Arri prime counterparts on the other hand. Simmilar T-stop as the Canons but double the price. So depending on one's point of view, these could be called the bargain of the century. :)
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: KitH on November 04, 2011, 04:00:22 PM

The CP2s are slower. Take a look at the Arri prime counterparts on the other hand. Simmilar T-stop as the Canons but double the price. So depending on one's point of view, these could be called the bargain of the century. :)

For that sort of money I'd expect the Arri lenses to come with a well-spoken butler to stand beside them and respectfully offer discreet advice upon the delicate subtleties of focusing and T stop, then adjust it for you, whilst wearing white gloves. 

Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: seanmcr6 on November 04, 2011, 04:09:58 PM
The 5D is dead.
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: Edwin Herdman on November 04, 2011, 04:55:04 PM
So I read!
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: Fandongo on November 04, 2011, 05:55:11 PM
But will it blend?

LoL, i would pay to see that.
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: Axilrod on November 04, 2011, 06:39:43 PM
I'm extremely disappointed by this announcement.  These are the features many of us wanted, but they should just be part of the evolution of DSLR.  Canon is forcefully separating camps into (likely highly expensive line of equipment) which really goes directly AGAINST the reason DSLR video had such widespread success in the first place.  Pro-equipment being affordable (or at least with-in reach) in the hands of the masses was largely the point and this seems to miss that entirely.

They just fractured a business model that was working perfectly for them.  I fear they have done something quite so very stupid.  If this doesn't interfere with the natural progression DSLR video was on, then fine, no harm no foul, but only time will tell, and I've smelled this smell before.  It's a distinct smell.

I'm not at all impressed, the 5D Mark III and the 7D Mark II (and probably even the 1DX) should be/have been launched with 4k capability, as it's quite essentially useful for editing 1080p format.  It allows the editor the ability to re-crop and or pan the image and as well use digital image stabilization and then have some room around the frame to crop after stabilizing the content.  Similarly, higher than needed framerates, etc. etc., all things Canon could have been working on and figuring out for our replacement models instead of this....

The sensors on DSLR are already capable of 4k pixel wise, and so are the lenses.  Regardless, I'm going to have to simply ignore all the new products, let Hollywood blow their wad on it, I just hope it doesn't interfere with one of the main reasons I got into Canon DSLR video in the first place.  I'm not happy or excited, in fact I feel kind of used and stupid for playing along.  Time will tell, but if they don't eventually release the features we need on the budgets we have someone else will, and then where will they be?

p.s. I am not going to waste precious budget splitting my photography and film needs across multiple product lines, why do you think I got a DSLR?  Oh and, I'm already sick of the new marketing term "EOS Movie".

This has been your negatively honest announcement for the day, enjoy your breakfast.

You think it's a bad announcement because they didn't announce what you wanted.  They had to start somewhere with their EOS Cinema line, and debuting a camera good enough for Hollywood to use was a good way to establish themselves as major players in the industry.  This is a totally different division of Canon, they had to bring something big out.

We all know they're working on a 4K DSLR, just have some patience and it will come.  Your film-making capabilities are not any less today than they were a week ago.  You can still make something great with a 5D/7D, our time will come soon enough.
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: rocketdesigner on November 04, 2011, 07:42:37 PM
Axilrod well said.

+1
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: sandro on November 04, 2011, 10:12:41 PM
The only thing we should worry about is the natural market consequence, that they're gonna cripple features to make you buy dedicated video camera or in this case high end "cinema" DSLR = expensive!.
Like Sony did, they released the amazing f3/fs100 with amazing real 1080p clean video with outstanding low light capabilities BUT with high end average video resolution (still full of moiré) on the new DSRLs which to me are not worth the upgrade (video-wise).

BTW I really doubt they're ever gonna give 4k as a basic res to a 7d too, just forget it  :-\
I just can't wait to find out my future with Canon :D
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: coltsfreak18 on November 04, 2011, 10:59:15 PM
I forget where, but I did read somewhere, that the new lenses (for sure the primes, but I'm not so sure about the zooms) have 12 rounded aperture blades.  The 50 f/1.2 has 8; thus, this is a different lens design.  It may have the same glass, but it will definitely have smoother bokeh.
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: Edwin Herdman on November 04, 2011, 11:06:05 PM
It's on the homepage:
Quote
Each lens is equipped with a newly designed 11-blade aperture diaphragm for soft, attractive blur characteristics, making them ideally suited for cinematographic applications.
You can read the entire press release at the CR homepage, or at Canon's website.
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: bobtur on November 04, 2011, 11:40:50 PM
The camera looks great, however the MPEG II recording codec is still 8-bit which isn't a professional bit rate. It leaves you without any latitude to color correct, a big problem for Canon 5D Mark II users. The good news is that there's an HD-SDI output which will allow you to use a third party 10 or 12-bit recorder.

About the hype that this is a Red Epic or Arri Alexa killer, it isn't. I own the Alexa-Plus and Arriraw, or it's 12-bit 4:4:4 capability, coupled with the camera's 14 stops of latitude ends that argument. The 300 competes more with Red's Scarlet, however at twice the price it may, or may not.

I would love to have the 300 as a second unit camera so I could use my EF lenses, including the 14mm 2.8, 20-35mm, 14mm TS, 85mm 1.2, 135mm 2.0, 400mm 2.8.

Too bad they make you choose between EF and PL mount models because I'd like to be able to use my Master Primes, too.
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: DarkKnightNine on November 05, 2011, 02:29:03 AM
When will it sink into Canon's head that the only thing Red Digital Cinema has over them is uncompressed RAW motion capture? Why does Canon keep announcing camera after camera with some idiotic file compression scheme? Now they're thinking Motion JPEG. How about just RAW data over an HD-SDI or Thunderbolt connection?
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: DarkKnightNine on November 05, 2011, 03:04:11 AM
So the Scarlet X comes out Nov 17 - PL Mount & Dec 1 - EF Mount.  S35 Sensor. 4k Video 24/25fps 2k video 50/60fps 1k video 120fps.  And $14,000 for a full kit. $9750 for just the body.  So within hours the C300 has become overpriced old technology.

They knew this would happen but I guess they forgot James Jannard was that crazy.  I will buy a Scarlet if he throws in his 1200mm/5.6L.

Edit: 12fps Stills also.


If Canon added RAW video capture to a 1D Mark IV, you'd have your Scarlet X right now. The newly revised Scarlet X is nothing more than an APS-H sized sensor. Red no longer impresses me at all. They're just about marketing hype. The only thing Red does better than Canon is they have the good sense to realize not to use highly compressed codecs that negate the point of shooting with large sensors in the first place. If Canon ever figures that out, they will blow Red out of the water.
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: DarkKnightNine on November 05, 2011, 03:25:33 AM
I'm extremely disappointed by this announcement.  These are the features many of us wanted, but they should just be part of the evolution of DSLR.  Canon is forcefully separating camps into (likely highly expensive line of equipment) which really goes directly AGAINST the reason DSLR video had such widespread success in the first place.  Pro-equipment being affordable (or at least with-in reach) in the hands of the masses was largely the point and this seems to miss that entirely.

They just fractured a business model that was working perfectly for them.  I fear they have done something quite so very stupid.  If this doesn't interfere with the natural progression DSLR video was on, then fine, no harm no foul, but only time will tell, and I've smelled this smell before.  It's a distinct smell.

I'm not at all impressed, the 5D Mark III and the 7D Mark II (and probably even the 1DX) should be/have been launched with 4k capability, as it's quite essentially useful for editing 1080p format.  It allows the editor the ability to re-crop and or pan the image and as well use digital image stabilization and then have some room around the frame to crop after stabilizing the content.  Similarly, higher than needed framerates, etc. etc., all things Canon could have been working on and figuring out for our replacement models instead of this....

The sensors on DSLR are already capable of 4k pixel wise, and so are the lenses.  Regardless, I'm going to have to simply ignore all the new products, let Hollywood blow their wad on it, I just hope it doesn't interfere with one of the main reasons I got into Canon DSLR video in the first place.  I'm not happy or excited, in fact I feel kind of used and stupid for playing along.  Time will tell, but if they don't eventually release the features we need on the budgets we have someone else will, and then where will they be?

p.s. I am not going to waste precious budget splitting my photography and film needs across multiple product lines, why do you think I got a DSLR?  Oh and, I'm already sick of the new marketing term "EOS Movie".

This has been your negatively honest announcement for the day, enjoy your breakfast.


Interesting thoughts and I would have to say I agree with you. Greed seems to be the motivation here rather than trying to give creative professionals what they want or need.
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: Manuel on November 05, 2011, 09:56:22 AM
I'm very disappointed about the non-releasing of a 5D mark III. Frustrated by the 8bit C300. Disgusted by the washed out, poorly white balanced and noisy image quality of the last Laforet's video compared to Nocturne and Reverie. And very, very, very Sorry for Scorsese. Ah, last but not least, the surreal price range. If only Canon had really listened properly...What's your take CR? Hope the Canon people are listening because they just released an object to rent not to own: the 5D mark II IQ still beats hands down any competitor.
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: DarkKnightNine on November 05, 2011, 03:42:01 PM
I'm very disappointed about the non-releasing of a 5D mark III. Frustrated by the 8bit C300. Disgusted by the washed out, poorly white balanced and noisy image quality of the last Laforet's video compared to Nocturne and Reverie. And very, very, very Sorry for Scorsese. Ah, last but not least, the surreal price range. If only Canon had really listened properly...What's your take CR? Hope the Canon people are listening because they just released an object to rent not to own: the 5D mark II IQ still beats hands down any competitor.


You mean any competitor within the 5D Mark II's price range right? Watch Zacuto's latest video shoot of large sensor cameras and I think you'll agree the Alexa's IQ is better but at a huge cost difference over the 5D Mark II. Link here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIiWStv2ANk
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: Edwin Herdman on November 05, 2011, 04:15:13 PM
When will it sink into Canon's head that the only thing Red Digital Cinema has over them is uncompressed RAW motion capture? Why does Canon keep announcing camera after camera with some idiotic file compression scheme? Now they're thinking Motion JPEG. How about just RAW data over an HD-SDI or Thunderbolt connection?
To me, the most apparent difference between these Canon cameras and the RED cameras is in the ergonomics - and size.  To go with uncompressed RAW video they'd probably have to go to hard drives, too.  The RED cameras look much bigger and clumsier to work with but they can't simply record to a couple CF cards.  Keeping that much data moving through the system seems like it would be the cause of much greater battery use and data throughput requirements, as well, because the Canon camera is ditching a fair amount of data with the 4:2:2 chroma compression scheme.

I think your main point stands, but it seems to me that there is a clear tradeoff here between data and mobility (as a result of the extra requirements to do uncompressed capture).

However, Canon is using the DIGIC DV III in the C300, not the newer DIGIC V (or V+).  This may simply be the result of the DIGIC V series not being optimal for video - hard to say as of yet.  I think the next round should be better for Canon, though.
Disgusted by the washed out, poorly white balanced and noisy image quality of the last Laforet's video compared to Nocturne and Reverie.
I didn't see it.  In any case, the short was shot using natural lighting and at ISOs up to 16,000 (or so) - how is that bad performance?  If you can use artificial lights that goes away.  I don't understand the white balance critique at all - there definitely was some color grading but it didn't seem terribly inconsistent (in a jarring way, at least).
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: MartinvH on November 06, 2011, 03:57:38 AM
I'm very disappointed about the non-releasing of a 5D mark III. Frustrated by the 8bit C300. Disgusted by the washed out, poorly white balanced and noisy image quality of the last Laforet's video compared to Nocturne and Reverie. And very, very, very Sorry for Scorsese. Ah, last but not least, the surreal price range. If only Canon had really listened properly...What's your take CR? Hope the Canon people are listening because they just released an object to rent not to own: the 5D mark II IQ still beats hands down any competitor.


You mean any competitor within the 5D Mark II's price range right? Watch Zacuto's latest video shoot of large sensor cameras and I think you'll agree the Alexa's IQ is better but at a huge cost difference over the 5D Mark II. Link here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIiWStv2ANk

That link to Youtube is great ,thanks for that.
Everybody can learn something from that video no matter if you are a pro or just an amateur.
My conclusion is :In the end its all about the cameraman's capabilities to adapt to  each camera's strongest and weaker points and adapt your shooting because all camera's in this test are good.

Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcDYdaZs6Kc&feature=related
Part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2FAAuRr0hg&feature=related


Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: RichST on November 07, 2011, 01:48:12 PM

If Canon added RAW video capture to a 1D Mark IV, you'd have your Scarlet X right now

No, not by a long shot, the 1DIV (or 5DII) are throwing away huge amounts of data to generate their video. Their resolution will never be up to cameras that use full sensor scans to generate video. Canon's cinema DSLR will finally do it "right". I think the reason they're going with motion-jpeg is because h.264 doesn't support 4K if I read the specs right. Raw would be great if the thing had a Thunderbolt port but Canon won't be doing that because um, ummm, mmmm, hmmm, errrrrrr......
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: dr croubie on November 07, 2011, 04:54:13 PM
How much extra would you pay to have a Thunderbolt port on your camera?

Given that it's an Apple product, you'd have to be paying Apple licensing fees. I'd rather save the cash and buy another lens or two with that money.

Is eSATA not fast enough? SAS-600? Ultra-640 SCSI? external PCIexpress? ieee 1394-3200? Fibre-channel?

Or maybe just wait until Camrea Link gets widely adopted...
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: caruser on November 07, 2011, 06:13:47 PM
How much extra would you pay to have a Thunderbolt port on your camera?

Given that it's an Apple product, you'd have to be paying Apple licensing fees.

Thunderbolt ist Intel, not Apple.
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: samueljay on November 07, 2011, 06:21:50 PM
To me, the most apparent difference between these Canon cameras and the RED cameras is in the ergonomics - and size.  To go with uncompressed RAW video they'd probably have to go to hard drives, too.
Correct me if I'm wrong, I had a feeling to do uncompressed RAW video it would be over SDI, and wouldn't be using memory cards or hard drives linked to a camera at all? Something along the lines of a capture device?
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: dr croubie on November 07, 2011, 06:30:35 PM
Thunderbolt ist Intel, not Apple.

Well when I first heard about it, it was apple, and only Macs actually use it thus far. But yeah, now it's registered with intel, so there's hope that it won't be too much of a licensing slog.

Still, Thunderbolt is only a way of combining displayport and PCIe on one cable. They can just as easily use an external PCIe connector (although granted, there's likely to be more (and therefore cheaper) thunderbolt-compatible storage-solutions).
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: AG on November 09, 2011, 04:42:26 AM
If Canon added RAW video capture to a 1D Mark IV, you'd have your Scarlet X right now. The newly revised Scarlet X is nothing more than an APS-H sized sensor. Red no longer impresses me at all. They're just about marketing hype. The only thing Red does better than Canon is they have the good sense to realize not to use highly compressed codecs that negate the point of shooting with large sensors in the first place. If Canon ever figures that out, they will blow Red out of the water.

Don't forget the other things that RED does really well.

Such as drop frames.

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?63113-Dropped-Frames-with-Epic
http://www.stadamedia.co.uk/dannylaceyfilm/2011/11/major-technical-issues-with-footage-from-host-video-blog-update/
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: DarkKnightNine on November 09, 2011, 07:19:51 PM
Guys we're arguing semantics here. My point was that Red is not doing anything that far superior with their hardware that Canon couldn't easily match or even best. Where Red does better over Canon is on the software side with a RAW capture workflow. All Canon would need to do to is implement a similar workflow and include some sort of connection that could move that heavy data stream directly from the sensor to a media device that could handle it like my exampled Thunderbolt SSD. The problem I have with Red is that they market their sensors with hyped up names like "Mysterium" to make them sound far bigger and better than what they actually are. It's an APS-H similar sized sensor, plain and simple. Nothing magical about it. Canon has been making them for years.
Title: Re: Concept Cinema DSLR Official
Post by: ferdi on November 10, 2011, 01:41:10 PM
This article provides some answers to our mount-related questions (and more):
http://learn.usa.canon.com/resources/misc/cinemaEOS_faq.shtml (http://learn.usa.canon.com/resources/misc/cinemaEOS_faq.shtml)

Quote
Can I change the mount from EF/PL to PL/EF?
No. Lens mounts are not user-interchangeable. This is to assure maximum lens mount strength and precision, something Canon engineers determined was difficult to achieve with an interchangeable mount system.

Does the EOS C300 PL have electronic data contacts for Cooke or Arri PL-mount lenses?
No, there are no electronic lens mount contacts on the EOS C300 PL. These lenses can certainly be mounted and used successfully on the EOS C300 PL, but lens metadata will not be communicated to the camera.

Can metadata have EF lens information?
Yes. Using the EOS C300 with EF mount allows for lens metadata to be passed from the lens to the camera's metadata.