canon rumors FORUM

Rumors => EOS Bodies => Topic started by: Canon Rumors on December 05, 2011, 12:26:29 PM

Title: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: Canon Rumors on December 05, 2011, 12:26:29 PM
The next Rebel I received some early specs about the coming update to the T3i. We’re told to expect it before CP+ in February.

The camera will probably be a new 24mp APS-C sensor and run a DIGIC 5 processor. The DIGIC 5+ won’t be used.

Expect some standard upgrades in ISO performance, HD movie modes and some creative control updates. The final spec list is not yet finalized.

It was mentioned that Canon may keep the new sensor for a 60D upgrade, with the next Rebel sticking at 18mp.

cr

Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: neuroanatomist on December 05, 2011, 12:32:32 PM
I would have been surprised to see a higher MP sensor on a Rebel/xxxD, or even a 70D, prior to the 7DII.  But now Canon marketing can point to the 1D X having fewer MP than the 5DII/1DsIII and being 'better' as they continue to upmarket the current 7D.  So, maybe we'll see a new APS-C sensor in the Rebel.  I have no doubt that we'll see a new Rebel/xxxD in 1Q12. 
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: MartinvH on December 05, 2011, 12:33:39 PM
Thanks for that info ...but I must say it sounds rather confusing 18 or 24 megapixel.

24 megapixel on such a small sensor ..well.... would that imply the 5D Mark 3 will also raise its megapixels dramatically ?
I think so.

24 megapixel on Aps-c is however the way Sony has gone with its Aps-c sensor in the
Sony Nex-7 which does has some superior points over the Canon Aps-c.

However i still find it hard to believe 24 megapixel ....is the megapixel hype still not over ?
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: neuroanatomist on December 05, 2011, 12:56:45 PM
DIGIC 5+?
Has that been used anywhere else?

The 1D X will have 2 Digic5+ processors.

(http://www.extremetech.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Canon1DX-Dual-Digic5.jpg)
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: candyman on December 05, 2011, 01:04:50 PM
I would have been surprised to see a higher MP sensor on a Rebel/xxxD, or even a 70D, prior to the 7DII. 

Well I believe / think it is possible. Or is it wishful thinking?
The Canon 650D with one Digic 5 - 2012 / spring
Next the Canon 70D with one Digic 5 - 2012 / autumn
Then the Canon 7D MK II with two Digic 5 - 2013 /spring


Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: neuroanatomist on December 05, 2011, 01:12:05 PM
I would have been surprised to see a higher MP sensor on a Rebel/xxxD, or even a 70D, prior to the 7DII. 

Well I believe / think it is possible. Or is it wishful thinking?
The Canon 650D with one Digic 5 - 2012 / spring
Next the Canon 70D with one Digic 5 - 2012 / autumn
Then the Canon 7D MK II with two Digic 5 - 2013 /spring

Certainly Digic5 will be used from now on, 7DII might have two of them or even two Digic5+.  But that says nothing about MP count...
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: candyman on December 05, 2011, 01:23:10 PM
I would have been surprised to see a higher MP sensor on a Rebel/xxxD, or even a 70D, prior to the 7DII. 

Well I believe / think it is possible. Or is it wishful thinking?
The Canon 650D with one Digic 5 - 2012 / spring
Next the Canon 70D with one Digic 5 - 2012 / autumn
Then the Canon 7D MK II with two Digic 5 - 2013 /spring

Certainly Digic5 will be used from now on, 7DII might have two of them or even two Digic5+.  But that says nothing about MP count...

You are right. I am not sure about 24MP. Could be 21.
What I mean is the specs of the current 7D are different from a 60D. I don't believe people jump from 7D to 70D just because it has more MP than the current 7D (18MP) and just because it hits the market before the 7D MK II. I bought my 7D for Sports. The 60D doesn't match my criteria. I believe it will be the same with the 70D. I can except the lower amount of MP for another 12 months compared to 650D and 70D because their specs still don't match my criteria. At least I think and I hope  :)

Oh, and I think the Digic 5+ is exclusive for the FF. So don't think they put 2 Digic 5+ in the 7D MKII - just my 2cents
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: NoWii on December 05, 2011, 01:43:53 PM
I have only one question.. Why, why WHY?
Why do they even need to update the series? Cameras are not old, are not outdated, and it just seems stupid to release a new camera, just because of higher mp count. There's no real improvement. And there's a product for everyone. What do you miss? What kind of camera? Don't tell me, that anyone actually waits impatiently for a new rebel or xxD camera?
The only hole in canon's body lineup might be an affordable FF camera, but even so, 5dII is still selling well.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: dstppy on December 05, 2011, 01:44:32 PM
<p>It was mentioned that Canon may keep the new sensor for a 60D upgrade, with the next Rebel sticking at 18mp.</p>

That seems to be the most likely, no?

I mean, wouldn't the former (digic V + 24MP) in a rebel completely displace the 60D and kill sales?

Unless they're planning on a $1.2k body, which seems silly.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: Bob Howland on December 05, 2011, 01:47:06 PM
Are we headed for a negative correlation between the price of a camera body and the number of pixels it contains? I suppose that pixel count is comparatively easy for Best Buy sales people to explain to potential buyers.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: EYEONE on December 05, 2011, 02:00:05 PM
Are we headed for a negative correlation between the price of a camera body and the number of pixels it contains? I suppose that pixel count is comparatively easy for Best Buy sales people to explain to potential buyers.

Quite possibly, it might even make sense for there to be. I was in Best Buy a few months ago looking at their selection of DSLRs and I over heard a customer and a salesperson discussing DSLRs. The customer kept saying "But this one has more megapixels" (I almost jumped it, but decided I didn't care). Entry-level customers and parents won't typically know anything about ISO performance, dynamic range or diffraction limits. They just know megapixels and want more of them.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: candyman on December 05, 2011, 02:05:49 PM
I have only one question.. Why, why WHY?
Why do they even need to update the series? Cameras are not old, are not outdated, and it just seems stupid to release a new camera, just because of higher mp count. There's no real improvement. And there's a product for everyone. What do you miss? What kind of camera? Don't tell me, that anyone actually waits impatiently for a new rebel or xxD camera?
The only hole in canon's body lineup might be an affordable FF camera, but even so, 5dII is still selling well.

To tell you the truth, I feel the same. But it must be the need and must of technology development, pushing the technology into the market before the compitition will do that and the growth as a company.
One can see that in many industries. Look at cars, TV's etc
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: unfocused on December 05, 2011, 02:12:01 PM
Ever since the 1D-X was announced, I've given up trying to predict what Canon will do.

Still, it is entertaining to speculate. I think Canon has too many cameras with the same sensor and needs to find a way to differentiate the lines. I question if they would put a 24mp sensor in a Rebel and then recycle the exact same sensor for a 7DII. It's one thing to let technology filter "down" from one model to another, but much harder to successfully pull off having technology filter "up" to more expensive models. Especially so, if there is a nine month gap or so between the announcement of a T4i and a 7DII. (Perception among 7DII buyers that they are being fed "old" technology.)

My wishful thinking: a more modest increase (21 mp) or no increase (keep at 18 mp) for the 7DII with improvements in noise, dynamic range and ISO. This allows clear differentiation between the 7D and the Rebel line.

I keep asking myself, what would cause me to upgrade from a 7D to a 7DII? I'm not an anti-megapixel person, but that alone won't do it for me and I suspect it won't do it for most 7D owners.

Some argue that current 7D owners aren't the target market (Canon wants to lure Rebel and 60D owners). To some extent that may be true, but two thoughts there: First, sophisticated Rebel and 60D owners also need to be convinced that the 7D is superior enough to warrant the upgrade and Second, the DSLR market is much more mature today than just a few years ago, meaning that manufacturers need to rely on repeat sales much more heavily than they did when the market was expanding by leaps and bounds.

Finally, the death of the APS-H sensor has to be a factor. The recent Canon interview showed that they hope to fill the void with teleconverters and new lenses, but they will be watching the market to test the reaction. As some readers have pointed out, the 1.6 crop factor of the APS-C sensor makes a better teleconverter than any true teleconverter. (No loss of image quality and no loss of speed).

I have my wish list, but mostly I plan to just sit back and enjoy the ride as I watch what Canon rolls out over the next year or so.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: Craig Richardson on December 05, 2011, 02:17:10 PM
I think the fact that we have not seen a Canon Roadmap in a while is hinting that they are changing marketing strategies and keeping their cards close to their vest.  All indications seem to point to a freeze in the megapixel race in regards to the top level bodies. 

The last couple of times I have overheard salesmen at camera stores they have been pushing XXX% zoom levels.  If increasing the megapixels in the rebel bodies allows the sales drones to include digital zooming or cropping in heir sales pitch they will eat it up!

I can hear it now!
"And with this 35 megapixel compact body you only have to point it in the general direction of the target and you can later crop down to a 18 megapixel image, just like the 1DX body!!"
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: neuroanatomist on December 05, 2011, 02:18:26 PM
I have only one question.. Why, why WHY?
Why do they even need to update the series? Cameras are not old, are not outdated, and it just seems stupid to release a new camera, just because of higher mp count. There's no real improvement. And there's a product for everyone. What do you miss? What kind of camera? Don't tell me, that anyone actually waits impatiently for a new rebel or xxD camera?
The only hole in canon's body lineup might be an affordable FF camera, but even so, 5dII is still selling well.

Not even for a higher MP count - the T3i/600D used the same sensor as its predecessor (and same as the 60D and 7D).  But the point of the Rebel/xxxD line isn't to entice people to upgrade from a previous camera in the line, it's to attract customers to buy their first dSLR and thus bring them into the brand (buying lenses, etc.).  So, the point is just to keep the line 'fresh' for comsumers upgrading from P&S cameras.

Oh, and I think the Digic 5+ is exclusive for the FF. So don't think they put 2 Digic 5+ in the 7D MKII - just my 2cents

Why do you think that?  It seems that dual Digic5+ is required to process 18 MP at 12 fps, just like dual Digic4 was required for 18 MP at 8 fps (and apparently, that was at the limit for Digic4 x2).  The Digic processor neither knows nor cares how large a pixel is, nor the size of the array they're in, just how many there are.  I suspect processor choice has little to do with sensor size, but rather is determined by the amount of data needing to be processed, i.e. the MP count. 
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: NormanBates on December 05, 2011, 02:20:29 PM
* you may stay with the camera you own
* we video shooters desperately want to get rid of the aliasing/moire from the current lineup

about the rumor: 18 or 24 mpix still unclear point to this being not much better than my own speculation (which would be: current 18mpix sensor plus digic 5, for something that's nearly identical to the 600D/T3i but probably -but not for sure- has no aliasing/moire, and records the same resolutions and frame rates at 4:2:0 H.264 but with a more efficient codec, so half the bitrate but same quality; 9 months later, magic lantern may unleash the nice 422 codec from the 1Dx onto such a 600D) (if this sounds minor to you, keep in mind: this would mean instant upgrade to every canon DSLR video shooter, except 5D2 owners, who would most probably keep their 5D2 and get this new camera as a different option)
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: K-amps on December 05, 2011, 02:21:08 PM
I can hear it now!
"And with this 35 megapixel compact body you only have to point it in the general direction of the target and you can later crop down to a 18 megapixel image, just like the 1DX body!!"

Haha made my day, thanks!  ;D
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: Independent on December 05, 2011, 02:24:47 PM
Wouldn't it be logical for Canon to introduce the T4i and other goodies before the colocated PMA and CES shows in January?
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: thepancakeman on December 05, 2011, 02:25:36 PM
I have only one question.. Why, why WHY?
Why do they even need to update the series?

I would venture to say it's because Canon makes money by selling cameras.  Sales often (usually?) has very little to do with what is best (ref. betamax) and a lot to do with psychology and market pressures. 

Which do you think sells better:  "the all new..." or the "hasn't changed in 5 years..." camera?  Obviously some consumers can see around/thru this, but as a whole--not going to happen.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: neuroanatomist on December 05, 2011, 02:33:33 PM
My wishful thinking: a more modest increase (21 mp) or no increase (keep at 18 mp) for the 7DII with improvements in noise, dynamic range and ISO. This allows clear differentiation between the 7D and the Rebel line.

I keep asking myself, what would cause me to upgrade from a 7D to a 7DII? I'm not an anti-megapixel person, but that alone won't do it for me and I suspect it won't do it for most 7D owners.

Some argue that current 7D owners aren't the target market (Canon wants to lure Rebel and 60D owners). To some extent that may be true, but two thoughts there: First, sophisticated Rebel and 60D owners also need to be convinced that the 7D is superior enough to warrant the upgrade...

The 1D X's 12 fps opens up room for a 7DII to have up 9-10 fps, so that's one obvious possible improvement.  I do think they'll improve ISO noise performance as well.  They might give the 7DII a new metering sensor that's somewhere in between the 1D X's 100K RGB pixels and the current 63 dual-layer zones. 

AF, frame rate, and build quality provide clear differentiator for the 7D line from the Rebel line - after all, those are the same differentiators of the 1-series from the other xD series bodies, and of the xxD line from the Rebel line as intermediate steps. 

I do think that the line between the 60D and the 7D is a little blurrier, and that's the reason the 60D lacks AFMA, for example. 
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: Meh on December 05, 2011, 02:50:53 PM
I have only one question.. Why, why WHY?
Why do they even need to update the series? Cameras are not old, are not outdated, and it just seems stupid to release a new camera, just because of higher mp count. There's no real improvement. And there's a product for everyone. What do you miss? What kind of camera? Don't tell me, that anyone actually waits impatiently for a new rebel or xxD camera?
The only hole in canon's body lineup might be an affordable FF camera, but even so, 5dII is still selling well.

The Rebels are very capable cameras as anyone reading this site knows.   We know that image quality comes first and we can easily know what are real and worthwhile upgrades.  However, the Rebel line right up the T3i is primarily positioned as a consumer level / entry level DSLR.  The bulk of the purchasers are buying their first DSLR, don't have any investment in lenses, and are comparing to all other brands.  Most consumers don't want to buy "last year's model".  I don't think there's much more than that to the annual refresh.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: Meh on December 05, 2011, 02:53:04 PM
Entry-level customers and parents won't typically know anything about ISO performance, dynamic range or diffraction limits. They just know megapixels and want more of them.

Exactly.  Even on this site we all know about ISO, DR, noise, diffraction, etc. and still get into debates about them before Neuro sets us straight.   :P
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: AprilForever on December 05, 2011, 03:04:17 PM
I wonder what on earth could be improved in the new rebel> I had an XSI, have a family member with a T1i... Big change between the two, bigger still with the T2i... didn't seem to be a lot new with the T3i... What could be advanced on the T4i? An MP count increase would not at all surprise me...
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: CarebbianTraveler on December 05, 2011, 03:50:58 PM
The Rebels are very capable cameras as anyone reading this site knows.   We know that image quality comes first and we can easily know what are real and worthwhile upgrades.  However, the Rebel line right up the T3i is primarily positioned as a consumer level / entry level DSLR.  The bulk of the purchasers are buying their first DSLR, don't have any investment in lenses, and are comparing to all other brands.  Most consumers don't want to buy "last year's model".  I don't think there's much more than that to the annual refresh.

That's a good point and the reason why the next Rebel needs a new sensor with more megapixels. Sony for example is now trying to reach exactly this consumers with pretty a aggressive features/price, since they have no high-end consumers to loose. But to gain new ones that don't care much about the high-ISO IQ.
So Canon has to react and needs at least to increase the MP, even when the 18MP sensor still beats Sony's IQ. MP obviously still sell, otherwise 16MP compacts can't be explained.
I personally would rather appreciate other improvements like weather-sealing or a better AF, but this features are reserved for the higher end canons.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: Stone on December 05, 2011, 04:45:40 PM
I think this rumor is very plausible, to the average consumer coming from a P&S, the more MP the better.  Canon almost has to up the MP count just to match specs.  The advertised improvements in jpg noise reduction in the digic V would probably make entry level consumers very happy with the MP increase.

I think the 70D would get the same 24MP sensor, single digic V and the 7D's 19pt af to make the upgrade to an XXD series worth it in the eyes of people looking for a clear upgrade path.  I also think we'll see a more affordable XXD FF camera from Canon in the next year or so

Canon could take the 1Dx approach with the 7D II and make it a real upgrade over the XXD bodies.  They should keep the 18MP sensor and improve the DR & ISO performance to set a new IQ standard for crop bodies.  I certainly would not complain about a 7D II with 18MP, greatly improved DR, 1-2 stops for a clean ISO 6400 & usable ISO 12K, 10 fps and a 30+ pt af system.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: Meh on December 05, 2011, 04:50:43 PM
Entry-level customers and parents won't typically know anything about ISO performance, dynamic range or diffraction limits. They just know megapixels and want more of them.

Exactly.  Even on this site we all know about ISO, DR, noise, diffraction, etc. and still get into debates about them before Neuro sets us straight.   :P

I think that even if there was a Neuro in every BestBuy store to "educate" customers that a significant portion of them would still buy the camera with more MP. After all, he'd just be another salesman.

+1 Good Point!
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: thepancakeman on December 05, 2011, 04:52:50 PM
Entry-level customers and parents won't typically know anything about ISO performance, dynamic range or diffraction limits. They just know megapixels and want more of them.

Exactly.  Even on this site we all know about ISO, DR, noise, diffraction, etc. and still get into debates about them before Neuro sets us straight.   :P

I think that even if there was a Neuro in every BestBuy store to "educate" customers that a significant portion of them would still buy the camera with more MP. After all, he'd just be another salesman.

Wait a minute...how do we know he's not already moonlighting at the local Best Buy... :o
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: smirkypants on December 05, 2011, 04:58:28 PM
this is not the droid camera you are looking for.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: roland on December 05, 2011, 05:26:48 PM
My wishful thinking: a more modest increase (21 mp) or no increase (keep at 18 mp) for the 7DII with improvements in noise, dynamic range and ISO. This allows clear differentiation between the 7D and the Rebel line.

IMHO I'd even love to see a 7DII with a reduction to, say,  15MP and corresponding improvements to dynamic range and high-ISO performance.  Throw in a few AF/metering improvements and maybe ergonomic improvements like a swiveling LCD and it would be an awesome body (for me).
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: holmes201 on December 05, 2011, 05:32:22 PM
Are you kidding??!!  Way to give Canon the message that they don't need to innovate and do much to make customers happy.  Yes I am impatiently waiting for a new xxxD or xxD camera.  What do they need to update?  How about trying to match Nikon's dynamic range, better AF, cleaner high ISO, putting autofocus on video, allowing micro-adjust, giving a custom C option on the dial, giving more flexibility to specify how Auto-ISO works with limits etc., adding an intervalometer, and allowing you to choose different aspect ratios (come on, point and shoots half a decade ago could do that. I would like to be able to choose from 1x1, 16x9, 2x1, 2.5x1, 1.5x1, 1.333x1 and customx1. It's not hard to implement, it's just firmware.  Don't tell me to crop afterwards, I want to be able to compose and expose correctly on the spot for the target aspect ratio.)

I've been a faithful Canon owner but don't try to say there's nothing that need improving and nobody is waiting for those improvements.

I have only one question.. Why, why WHY?
Why do they even need to update the series? Cameras are not old, are not outdated, and it just seems stupid to release a new camera, just because of higher mp count. There's no real improvement. And there's a product for everyone. What do you miss? What kind of camera? Don't tell me, that anyone actually waits impatiently for a new rebel or xxD camera?
The only hole in canon's body lineup might be an affordable FF camera, but even so, 5dII is still selling well.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: Wuweiwarrior on December 05, 2011, 05:33:11 PM
I dunno why some people are complaining about an upgrade to the Rebel line. Camera companies upgrade. Thats what they do.

Besides, if you think an upgrade to the t3i is pointless...you will be able to pick up a discounted one when the T4i comes out. :-)

I was going to buy a T3i for alot of traveling i plan to do next year. But i will wait and see what features the T4i has before I decide. Personally, like some here, i don't care too much about MORE mega pixels on an APS-C dslr. I think 18 is fine. I'm don't know what other upgrades they will include....

If the difference is negligable, i will nab the T3i. But if they manage to squeeze some cool upgrades into the T4i, i may nab one of those too.

Right now i am using my iphone 4S for all my travel photography. It's my favorite carry always camera hands down. But having a Rebel with a 10-22mm for awesome landscape travel photos....and a nifty fifty for portraits with lushous bokuh is tempting.

Nothing fancy. Just something to give my travel photos that extra umph! :-)
Title: Re: So, the 5D3 seems to be a Photokina announcement....
Post by: pedro on December 05, 2011, 05:37:23 PM
 8) or did I  miss something in this thread?
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: skrettis on December 05, 2011, 05:40:11 PM
I really want REBEL T4i to have a fast GPS hybrid or A-GPS!!

Tday I am running Magic Lantern with AudioMonitor and follow-focus firmware  ;D on 550D / Rebel2i and I cannot find any other reason to change to a newer Canon exept having a GPS for my Nature Pictures / Geo pictures.

A Canon SLR / Rebel.. with GPS NATIVE and not as a SNAP ON!   Like the newest SONY!

Native support for REMOTE MIC and flash would also be a nice feature that would make change now..

Any lobbyists?  8)



Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: Nejko on December 05, 2011, 05:42:16 PM
anyone thinking somewhat in this way:

7D mk2: the old 45-AF from the 1D and 8-10fps - to better kick the D400
70D: the 19-AF from the 7D mk1 and 6fps - to rival the D7100
650D: the xxD line 9-AF point system and say.. 4fps


Even if they remain having the same sensor.. the AF + build factor make all the difference you need.
The 7D mk2 would be around 1400€.. about the same than the D300s with the AF of the D3s.. stands to reason?

If I were Canon... ^^
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: JR on December 05, 2011, 05:47:45 PM
anyone thinking somewhat in this way:

7D mk2: the old 45-AF from the 1D and 8-10fps - to better kick the D400
70D: the 19-AF from the 7D mk1 and 6fps - to rival the D7100
650D: the xxD line 9-AF point system and say.. 4fps


Even if they remain having the same sensor.. the AF + build factor make all the difference you need.
The 7D mk2 would be around 1400€.. about the same than the D300s with the AF of the D3s.. stands to reason?

If I were Canon... ^^

So what AF do you put into a 5D mkIII then?
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: Nejko on December 05, 2011, 05:54:50 PM
the most my logic has to dictate is a revisited 19-AF from the 7D, to cover a bigger area.. and not the 45 or 61-AF.. it´s a studio/still camera.. MF with live-view is better, not? i shoot sport.. :)
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: unfocused on December 05, 2011, 05:56:30 PM
I consistently read two comments on this site that I'm not so sure I agree with.

1) People say that camera companies must upgrade their models every year because consumers want the latest and greatest; and

2) Many of these same folks insist that the average consumer equates more megapixels with better.

I'm just not sure either one is correct and I'd love to see some marketing research to support these viewpoints. My questions: How many average consumers even know what year a particular model of camera is released and what evidence is there that they care? It's not like Canon has ever tagged their products as "Rebels 2000." As long as the camera has features that are competitive with similar models in the store, do consumers really care? Yes, it gives salespeople a selling point, but they would just pivot to another selling point if that were not available. Again, I'm not saying this is not the case, I'm just questioning whether this is backed up by any hard evidence or if it's just internet legend.

Similarly, yes, megapixels are a handy indicator of how "powerful" a camera is. But, if that were the deciding factor, Nikon would never sell another consumer DSLR. Actually, however, my point here is maybe a bit more nuanced, as I wonder at what point camera manufacturers will face blowback from consumers for having "too many megapixels."

We all know that most consumer images today are destined for Facebook or other social media sites. Or, they can end up in a printed souvenir book using one of the many awful, corny graphic designs that are so popular among new parents, couples getting married, etc. etc.

In both cases, the size of the file is fast reaching a point where it can be a detriment to quick uploads for sharing or printing. Many of the photographers on this site have complained about the way large files hog space on their computers. What makes us think that the average consumer doesn't face this problem as well, along with the frustration of uploading large megapixel images. 

While many of the users here know to downsize a file for the web, I suspect that many consumers aren't even aware of that option. I just wonder if we won't reach a point where consumers will start to complain because their 24 (or 30, or 40 or 50) megapixel images take forever to load onto Facebook and cause their computer to crash.

Just a few thoughts to encourage people to think a bit outside the box when making assumptions about consumer preferences without any solid research.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: wickidwombat on December 05, 2011, 06:34:29 PM
My wishful thinking: a more modest increase (21 mp) or no increase (keep at 18 mp) for the 7DII with improvements in noise, dynamic range and ISO. This allows clear differentiation between the 7D and the Rebel line.

I keep asking myself, what would cause me to upgrade from a 7D to a 7DII? I'm not an anti-megapixel person, but that alone won't do it for me and I suspect it won't do it for most 7D owners.

Some argue that current 7D owners aren't the target market (Canon wants to lure Rebel and 60D owners). To some extent that may be true, but two thoughts there: First, sophisticated Rebel and 60D owners also need to be convinced that the 7D is superior enough to warrant the upgrade...

The 1D X's 12 fps opens up room for a 7DII to have up 9-10 fps, so that's one obvious possible improvement.  I do think they'll improve ISO noise performance as well.  They might give the 7DII a new metering sensor that's somewhere in between the 1D X's 100K RGB pixels and the current 63 dual-layer zones. 

AF, frame rate, and build quality provide clear differentiator for the 7D line from the Rebel line - after all, those are the same differentiators of the 1-series from the other xD series bodies, and of the xxD line from the Rebel line as intermediate steps. 

I do think that the line between the 60D and the 7D is a little blurrier, and that's the reason the 60D lacks AFMA, for example.

I sure hope you are right I'll be watching the higher iso noise carefully as i am hoping the next 7D will be the next body I buy i also hope they keep the battery the same I really want to decluter my kit and be able to use the same battery's cards, and charger, If that is a performer then my 1Dmk 3 gets some permanent IR conversion goodness
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: JR on December 05, 2011, 06:35:32 PM
I consistently read two comments on this site that I'm not so sure I agree with.

1) People say that camera companies must upgrade their models every year because consumers want the latest and greatest; and

2) Many of these same folks insist that the average consumer equates more megapixels with better.

I'm just not sure either one is correct and I'd love to see some marketing research to support these viewpoints. My questions: How many average consumers even know what year a particular model of camera is released and what evidence is there that they care? It's not like Canon has ever tagged their products as "Rebels 2000." As long as the camera has features that are competitive with similar models in the store, do consumers really care? Yes, it gives salespeople a selling point, but they would just pivot to another selling point if that were not available. Again, I'm not saying this is not the case, I'm just questioning whether this is backed up by any hard evidence or if it's just internet legend.

Similarly, yes, megapixels are a handy indicator of how "powerful" a camera is. But, if that were the deciding factor, Nikon would never sell another consumer DSLR. Actually, however, my point here is maybe a bit more nuanced, as I wonder at what point camera manufacturers will face blowback from consumers for having "too many megapixels."

We all know that most consumer images today are destined for Facebook or other social media sites. Or, they can end up in a printed souvenir book using one of the many awful, corny graphic designs that are so popular among new parents, couples getting married, etc. etc.

In both cases, the size of the file is fast reaching a point where it can be a detriment to quick uploads for sharing or printing. Many of the photographers on this site have complained about the way large files hog space on their computers. What makes us think that the average consumer doesn't face this problem as well, along with the frustration of uploading large megapixel images. 

While many of the users here know to downsize a file for the web, I suspect that many consumers aren't even aware of that option. I just wonder if we won't reach a point where consumers will start to complain because their 24 (or 30, or 40 or 50) megapixel images take forever to load onto Facebook and cause their computer to crash.

Just a few thoughts to encourage people to think a bit outside the box when making assumptions about consumer preferences without any solid research.

I am hoping that poeple paying $1000+ for cameras gear will pay closer attention the things like IQ, high ISO performance, DR, AF capability, etc, rather then focus on MP alone.  I think as much as some Marketing team have banked on the MP war in the past to sell certain model, the same Marketing teams can come up with compelling strategies to convince and educate customers that the other aspects listed above are also of prime importance...

For my part I dont really car the exact number of MP for my next body, I just want it to be better then my current one!
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: EYEONE on December 05, 2011, 06:43:14 PM
I consistently read two comments on this site that I'm not so sure I agree with.

1) People say that camera companies must upgrade their models every year because consumers want the latest and greatest; and

2) Many of these same folks insist that the average consumer equates more megapixels with better.

I'm just not sure either one is correct and I'd love to see some marketing research to support these viewpoints. My questions: How many average consumers even know what year a particular model of camera is released and what evidence is there that they care? It's not like Canon has ever tagged their products as "Rebels 2000." As long as the camera has features that are competitive with similar models in the store, do consumers really care? Yes, it gives salespeople a selling point, but they would just pivot to another selling point if that were not available. Again, I'm not saying this is not the case, I'm just questioning whether this is backed up by any hard evidence or if it's just internet legend.

Similarly, yes, megapixels are a handy indicator of how "powerful" a camera is. But, if that were the deciding factor, Nikon would never sell another consumer DSLR. Actually, however, my point here is maybe a bit more nuanced, as I wonder at what point camera manufacturers will face blowback from consumers for having "too many megapixels."

We all know that most consumer images today are destined for Facebook or other social media sites. Or, they can end up in a printed souvenir book using one of the many awful, corny graphic designs that are so popular among new parents, couples getting married, etc. etc.

In both cases, the size of the file is fast reaching a point where it can be a detriment to quick uploads for sharing or printing. Many of the photographers on this site have complained about the way large files hog space on their computers. What makes us think that the average consumer doesn't face this problem as well, along with the frustration of uploading large megapixel images. 

While many of the users here know to downsize a file for the web, I suspect that many consumers aren't even aware of that option. I just wonder if we won't reach a point where consumers will start to complain because their 24 (or 30, or 40 or 50) megapixel images take forever to load onto Facebook and cause their computer to crash.

Just a few thoughts to encourage people to think a bit outside the box when making assumptions about consumer preferences without any solid research.

I think the ability for the salesperson to say "This is the newest version" is a massive selling point. Huge. A lot of times the people have no idea what they are looking at and equally so the salesman doesn't know what he's selling. It's easy to just say "Newest model"

I've listened to these selling points quite a bit as I browse around the big stores. It's important.

Perhaps it wouldn't matter as much if nobody updated the lower end every year. But since one person started they all must. For the most part these consumers don't have brand loyalty.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: JR on December 05, 2011, 07:21:12 PM
the most my logic has to dictate is a revisited 19-AF from the 7D, to cover a bigger area.. and not the 45 or 61-AF.. it´s a studio/still camera.. MF with live-view is better, not? i shoot sport.. :)

As a future buyer of the 5DmkII replacement I sure hope you are right!  :P 

However I am less certain this will happen unless the 5D replacement is significantly higher in quality and price point then the current version - like a EOS 3 body for example...  Canon seem to have a different approach then Nikon when it comes to AF systems differentiation between its "pro and semi-pro" level DSLR...
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: neuroanatomist on December 05, 2011, 07:24:23 PM
I have brand loyalty...one reason I bought an S95 is that I already had a 7D and a 5DII. That's what Canon had in mind, right?!?

As for moonlighting, "This new Rebel camera is a great choice - just came out and has LOTS of megapixels. You should also get this great second lens with a BIG zoom.  You'll need these Promaster protection filters, has 'pro' in the name 'cuz they're what the pros use. Oh, and you really need to get the great extended warranty we offer - it covers everything, no fine print, honest!"
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: Lee Jay on December 05, 2011, 08:46:27 PM
Well, let me see here.

I have a 20D, and my longest lens (aside from my telescope) is my 70-200/2.8L IS Mark I with stacked 1.4x teleconverters.  That combo performs very well at it's optical peak of f/9.

Just a couple of days ago, B&H has the 70-200/2.8L IS Mark II for $1,974.  I thought very seriously about jumping on it, primarily for it's ability to perform well with stacked 1.4x and 2x teleconverters on an 18MP 1.6-crop sensor.  I didn't, however, because no Canon body with that sensor could AF with that combination.

My goal is basically 2x more real resolving power than I have now, with the same handholdability and while retaining fast AF (basically, near diffraction-limited with AF).  I have 8.2MP and 400mm, so 16.4MP and 560mm would do it, or 32.8MP and 400mm would do it (assuming sufficient optical quality in both cases).  Well, with the loss of f/8 AF sensors on the 1D line, it seems like the only hope is for a ton of pixel density.  24MP and 400mm would get me about 70% more real resolution than I have now, and maybe that would be enough to make me spend all those thousands of dollars, maybe not, by 18MP and 400mm wasn't, even with the $400 off a couple of days ago.

So, yes, bring on the pixel density, and bring on the flexible video crop options - they're handy with astrophotography and in other special cases.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: squarebox on December 05, 2011, 08:49:01 PM
I know that the specs aren't out yet, but I figured the new kiss x6 would at least have the digic 5 processor in it.  But what I wanted to ask, if I was looking for improved ISO performance, would it be worth the upgrade from a kiss x4 to the x5?  Or should I just wait and get the 70D when it comes out? 

Side note, I hope that they at least put two mics on the new kiss coming out, does wonders for audio fidelity.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: whatta on December 06, 2011, 08:04:44 AM
650d, likely the moment that I'll change my 400d. I have been waiting for digic 5. better iso and video is almost certain, (H)DR would be nice.
I hope for finally a better af (micro adjust?) then the 30d/400d, better viewfinder and no more or even less (than 18) MP :P
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: neuroanatomist on December 06, 2011, 08:49:31 AM
I hope for finally a better af (micro adjust?) then the 30d/400d,

I don't think we'll ever see AMFA on a Rebel/xxxD body.  They excluded that feature from the 60D intentionally, and so I doub;t they'll add it back to the xxD line, either - it will remain a feature of xD bodies only, the 50D being the sole exception.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: thepancakeman on December 06, 2011, 10:07:36 AM
As for moonlighting, "This new Rebel camera is a great choice - just came out and has LOTS of megapixels. You should also get this great second lens with a BIG zoom.  You'll need these Promaster protection filters, has 'pro' in the name 'cuz they're what the pros use. Oh, and you really need to get the great extended warranty we offer - it covers everything, no fine print, honest!"

I knew it!!   ;D  Thanks for the smile!
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: Stuart on December 06, 2011, 10:44:15 AM
Big Mega pixel counts for those that don't know any better, and bigger pixel sites for those that do.

Will that allow some kind of natural product split where i have to "downgrade" MP to upgrade dynamic range.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: AJ on December 06, 2011, 01:13:22 PM
Wouldn't it be ironic if the 700D had 24 mpix and the 7D2 had 12 mpix.

Higher-end cam: fewer mpix, less noise, better colors.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: donthasslethehoff on December 06, 2011, 01:40:57 PM
Thanks for the info.  Any word on whether these cameras will have phase detection af and if they will match the new Sony's in video? 

Holding off on purchasing, but will pull the trigger once Canon makes this info known.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: jrista on December 06, 2011, 06:34:51 PM
It doesn't seem plausible to me that Canon would release a 24mp APS-C sensor. According to Canon themselves, their BEST L-series lenses are only capable of resolving about 45mp of detail in a Full-Frame image circle. The current generation of Canon's 18mp APS-C sensors have exactly the same density as a 46.7mp full frame sensor, which would mean that a 24mp APS-C sensor would far outresolve any lens Canon has on the market right now, and probably for several years to come at least.

I think it would be far more beneficial to Canon to work on the IQ of their current 18mp APS-C sensors than to try and boost megapixels any farther. The only area where more megapixels makes sense is in larger sensors, and given they have dropped APS-H (or seemingly so), that means full-frame sensors.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: Edwin Herdman on December 07, 2011, 01:27:19 AM
<strong>The next Rebel

</strong>I received some early specs about the coming update to the T3i. We’re told to expect it before CP+ in February.</p>
<p>The camera will probably be a new 24mp APS-C sensor and run a DIGIC 5 processor. The DIGIC 5+ won’t be used.</p>
<p>Expect some standard upgrades in ISO performance, HD movie modes and some creative control updates. The final spec list is not yet finalized.</p>
<p>It was mentioned that Canon may keep the new sensor for a 60D upgrade, with the next Rebel sticking at 18mp.</p>
<p><strong><span style=\"color: #ff0000;\">c</span>r</strong></p>
[/html]
Is "the next Rebel" the next entry-class Rebel after the T4i, i.e. a T4?  Because, obviously, the T4i could be "the next Rebel" we are likely to see.  This has been confusing me ever since the post went up.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: neuroanatomist on December 07, 2011, 06:38:51 AM
Is "the next Rebel" the next entry-class Rebel after the T4i, i.e. a T4?  Because, obviously, the T4i could be "the next Rebel" we are likely to see.  This has been confusing me ever since the post went up.

The same Rebel, I think.  In other words, the T4i will probably have a new 24MP sensor, but Canon may use that new 24MP sensor in the 70D and keep the T4i at 18MP.  At least, that's how I read it.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: Lee Jay on December 07, 2011, 09:08:37 AM
According to Canon themselves, their BEST L-series lenses are only capable of resolving about 45mp of detail in a Full-Frame image circle.

If Canon ever said that, whoever said it was about as clueless as clueless can get.  A 1.4x TC is about the same as doubling pixel count.  Do you seriously believe that a 400/2.8 can only support a single 1.4x teleconverter on a 5D II?  If so, look at this:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1029&message=37493247

That's 4x worth of TCs on a 400/2.8 on a 7D!  That's the equivalent of 737MP on a full-frame sensor.

I routinely use a 2x on my old 70-200/2.8 on a 20D - the equivalent of 32MP on 1.6-crop or 84MP on full-frame - and get pixel-sharp shots (which shows I'm still undersampling).  The new 70-200 is much better than the old one, and has been shown to support stacked 2x and 1.4x on the 7D (the equivalent of 144MP on 1.6-crop or 369MP on full-frame).  The best primes are better.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: K-amps on December 07, 2011, 10:05:07 AM
 Neuro... have you stacked the 1.4 + 2x on the 70-200mkii ?
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: neuroanatomist on December 07, 2011, 10:32:41 AM
Neuro... have you stacked the 1.4 + 2x on the 70-200mkii ?

No, I haven't tried that (yet).  I can, if there's interest.  I've been considering doing a comparison set between 70-200 II with single and stacked TCs, 100-400mm with single TCs, and then cropping everything to the same FoV (equivalent to the longest, i.e. 100-400 + 2x), in decent light (unlike the one time I tried the 100-400+2x), and seeing which gives the best results...
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: K-amps on December 07, 2011, 02:17:44 PM
Neuro... have you stacked the 1.4 + 2x on the 70-200mkii ?

No, I haven't tried that (yet).  I can, if there's interest.  I've been considering doing a comparison set between 70-200 II with single and stacked TCs, 100-400mm with single TCs, and then cropping everything to the same FoV (equivalent to the longest, i.e. 100-400 + 2x), in decent light (unlike the one time I tried the 100-400+2x), and seeing which gives the best results...

I am very curious... if it is decent, I might just splurge on a TC myself...  ;D
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: Sunnystate on December 07, 2011, 03:52:54 PM
Lol!

Sometimes, I wonder if naive salesperson from BestBuy is more ridiculous to give an advice than stack holder pretending to be know it all photographer?  ;)




As for moonlighting, "This new Rebel camera is a great choice - just came out and has LOTS of megapixels. You should also get this great second lens with a BIG zoom.  You'll need these Promaster protection filters, has 'pro' in the name 'cuz they're what the pros use. Oh, and you really need to get the great extended warranty we offer - it covers everything, no fine print, honest!"
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: Edwin Herdman on December 07, 2011, 05:32:02 PM
Is "the next Rebel" the next entry-class Rebel after the T4i, i.e. a T4?  Because, obviously, the T4i could be "the next Rebel" we are likely to see.  This has been confusing me ever since the post went up.

The same Rebel, I think.  In other words, the T4i will probably have a new 24MP sensor, but Canon may use that new 24MP sensor in the 70D and keep the T4i at 18MP.  At least, that's how I read it.
A clarification on this point from CRguy would be helpful.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: wickidwombat on December 07, 2011, 06:04:09 PM
Neuro... have you stacked the 1.4 + 2x on the 70-200mkii ?

No, I haven't tried that (yet).  I can, if there's interest.  I've been considering doing a comparison set between 70-200 II with single and stacked TCs, 100-400mm with single TCs, and then cropping everything to the same FoV (equivalent to the longest, i.e. 100-400 + 2x), in decent light (unlike the one time I tried the 100-400+2x), and seeing which gives the best results...

I am very curious... if it is decent, I might just splurge on a TC myself...  ;D

i am very happy with my kenko one on all my lenses and testing the 1.4 I found stopping down one more stop from the new wide apperture yields equivelant IQ to the native lens widest apperture ie 70-200 f2.8 put the Tc on at 280mm f5.6 IQ is the same as at 200 f2.8

and it works on all lenses great on the 50 f1.4 to give it a little more reach too
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: jrista on December 07, 2011, 08:50:26 PM
According to Canon themselves, their BEST L-series lenses are only capable of resolving about 45mp of detail in a Full-Frame image circle.

If Canon ever said that, whoever said it was about as clueless as clueless can get.  A 1.4x TC is about the same as doubling pixel count.  Do you seriously believe that a 400/2.8 can only support a single 1.4x teleconverter on a 5D II?  If so, look at this:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1029&message=37493247

That's 4x worth of TCs on a 400/2.8 on a 7D!  That's the equivalent of 737MP on a full-frame sensor.

I routinely use a 2x on my old 70-200/2.8 on a 20D - the equivalent of 32MP on 1.6-crop or 84MP on full-frame - and get pixel-sharp shots (which shows I'm still undersampling).  The new 70-200 is much better than the old one, and has been shown to support stacked 2x and 1.4x on the 7D (the equivalent of 144MP on 1.6-crop or 369MP on full-frame).  The best primes are better.

I'm not certain what your getting at, however if I understand correctly, I think your conflating two disjoint concepts: magnification and resolution. The magnification of an optical system affects how much a subject is enlarged in the image, and resolution of an optical system is how finely differentiated distinct detail is in the image. The two concepts are distinct, and can vary independently of each other. There is nothing that would prevent an increase to magnification while maintaining resolution...say slapping a teleconverter or four onto a lens. Similarly, there is nothing that would prevent an increase to resolution while maintaining the magnification of a lens.

I don't believe adding on a teleconverter does anything to optical resolution, other than possibly reducing it a bit as your adding more optical elements into the light path, each of which has the potential to diminish resolution with aberrations, flare, etc. (And thats only if you use teleconverters of the same optical quality as your lens...using cheaper teleconverters are most likely going to reduce the maximum optical resolution, not increase it.) I DO believe that adding a teleconverter will affect the magnification of the object your imaging, which is exactly the case with that image of the moon you linked...slapping on four teleconverters magnifies the moon more, however the overall optical resolution of the system should remain about the same.

If you are referring to the resolution an image of the entire moon would be when imaged at that magnification, then yes...you might have to produce an image mosaic 737mp in size at to capture the entire moon at that magnification. But thats NOT the same thing as resolving 737mp worth of detail in the same image circle.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: K-amps on December 07, 2011, 09:41:47 PM
i am very happy with my kenko one on all my lenses and testing the 1.4 I found stopping down one more stop from the new wide apperture yields equivelant IQ to the native lens widest apperture ie 70-200 f2.8 put the Tc on at 280mm f5.6 IQ is the same as at 200 f2.8

and it works on all lenses great on the 50 f1.4 to give it a little more reach too

Thanks for your input.

Are they fully automated (AF.metering etc)?  care to post a few pics?
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: wickidwombat on December 07, 2011, 09:50:46 PM
i am very happy with my kenko one on all my lenses and testing the 1.4 I found stopping down one more stop from the new wide apperture yields equivelant IQ to the native lens widest apperture ie 70-200 f2.8 put the Tc on at 280mm f5.6 IQ is the same as at 200 f2.8

and it works on all lenses great on the 50 f1.4 to give it a little more reach too

Thanks for your input.

Are they fully automated (AF.metering etc)?  care to post a few pics?
yep I have the DGX version it has full transmission of Af metering and adjusts max aperture you can select by the relevent amount and full exif data (so exif data on a 300mm lens will show shot at 420mm) i'll see if i can dig up some pics
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: Lee Jay on December 07, 2011, 11:27:21 PM
According to Canon themselves, their BEST L-series lenses are only capable of resolving about 45mp of detail in a Full-Frame image circle.

If Canon ever said that, whoever said it was about as clueless as clueless can get.  A 1.4x TC is about the same as doubling pixel count.  Do you seriously believe that a 400/2.8 can only support a single 1.4x teleconverter on a 5D II?  If so, look at this:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1029&message=37493247

That's 4x worth of TCs on a 400/2.8 on a 7D!  That's the equivalent of 737MP on a full-frame sensor.

I routinely use a 2x on my old 70-200/2.8 on a 20D - the equivalent of 32MP on 1.6-crop or 84MP on full-frame - and get pixel-sharp shots (which shows I'm still undersampling).  The new 70-200 is much better than the old one, and has been shown to support stacked 2x and 1.4x on the 7D (the equivalent of 144MP on 1.6-crop or 369MP on full-frame).  The best primes are better.

I'm not certain what your getting at, however if I understand correctly, I think your conflating two disjoint concepts: magnification and resolution.


No, I'm not.

There are two ways to change the real resolving power of an imaging system of a given aperture - change the focal length or change the pixel size.  They are equivalent, with all else equal (sensor efficiency, read noise, processing, etc.).

Quote
I don't believe adding on a teleconverter does anything to optical resolution, other than possibly reducing it a bit as your adding more optical elements into the light path, each of which has the potential to diminish resolution with aberrations, flare, etc.

We're not talking about optical resolution, we're talking about image resolution.  You can have the sharpest lens in the world and a sensor with 1 pixel won't have any resolution.  The resolution (not pixel count - resolution) of the final image is what matters in a resolving power/aperture/focal length/magnification limited situation.

Quote
If you are referring to the resolution an image of the entire moon would be when imaged at that magnification, then yes...you might have to produce an image mosaic 737mp in size at to capture the entire moon at that magnification. But thats NOT the same thing as resolving 737mp worth of detail in the same image circle.

Yes, it is.  Well, off-axis performance can be an issue, but aside from that, it's the same.

Think of doubing pixel count as a built-in 1.0-1.4x zoom teleconverter with no optical aberrations.
Think of quadrupling pixel count as a built-in 1.0-2.0x zoom teleconverter with no optical aberrations.

More pixels also means better noise performance.  Yes, I know, many here and other places think that's backwards, but they're wrong in nearly every case.  Sure, it means more noise at the 100% crop or 1:1 pixel level, but it also means lower noise in the overall image.  This is for a simple and (should be) obvious reason - modern noise reduction algorithms are spectacularly more efficient at eliminating noise and preserving detail than simple block averaging is.  Larger pixels do nothing but block average.

Think about this - the ideal sensor would capture each photon's location accurately and individually.  This is the most information you can capture and it corresponds to infinite pixel count.  In such a situation, each pixel would be extremely noisy - just on or off.

The main disadvantages to more pixels are, more relative read noise in photon-starved situations (but read noise has improved greatly of late), lower sensor yield, higher demands on the read electronics and processing pipeline, and larger storage and post-processing requirements.  Image degradation isn't a disadvantage of more pixels until your process technology can't produce good fill factors at the smaller sizes.  At the moment, that point is at about 1.5 micron pixels, which are an order of magnitude smaller in area than the ones in the 7D.

I can and have proven the substance of what I just said with real-world photographic testing of real cameras with real optics.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: jrista on December 08, 2011, 01:33:00 AM
@Lee Jay: Before we commandeer this thread, we might want to start another one to discuss the topic of resolution. I don't disagree with you on the principal of pixel size and recording image data, but I think your missing the fact that there IS a finite limit on how much optical resolution can be projected (imaged), by an optical system, regardless of what device may be recording that image (digital sensor or film.) We should move this discussion elsewhere and allow the normal topic of this thread to continue, though.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: match14 on December 08, 2011, 03:55:42 AM
I hope Canon doesn't do a 24MP APS-C sensor.  If you look at the Sony 24MP APS-C sensor it is nowhere as good as the 16MP sensor on the Nikon D7000.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: Lee Jay on December 08, 2011, 09:14:46 AM
... I think your missing the fact that there IS a finite limit on how much optical resolution can be projected (imaged), by an optical system, regardless of what device may be recording that image (digital sensor or film.)

Yep....and that limit is reached when pixel density reaches infinity.  What you end up approaching is the limit created by optical aberrations + diffraction.  Many of the best lenses have almost no aberrations and thus you're approaching this limit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spatial_cutoff_frequency

Of course, you don't really need infinity to get "most" of that limit.  But you need a lot more than most people think.  For example, this occurs somewhere in the neighborhood of f/20 on the 7D.  That's higher than you might think or calculate directly due to the combined effects of the AA filter, the Bayer mask and its demosaicing, and the fact that the pixels occupy space instead of being infinitesimally small (which we want so they can actually capture some light).

This is why a lot of astro folks shooting planets with 5.6 micron pixels (roughly 40D size) will shoot at f/28-f/40 (f/30 is common) - that's where they can extract all the detail their aperture can give them.  For example, these were shot by a dedicated amateur with a backyard scope of 14" of aperture at somewhere close to f/30:

http://www.damianpeach.com/barbados10/2010_09_12pic.jpg
http://www.damianpeach.com/barbados10/20100912whole.wmv
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: jrista on December 08, 2011, 10:11:24 PM
@Lee Jay - See: http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php/topic,2373.0.html
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: match14 on December 09, 2011, 03:06:16 AM
I hope Canon doesn't do a 24MP APS-C sensor.  If you look at the Sony 24MP APS-C sensor it is nowhere as good as the 16MP sensor on the Nikon D7000.

Well it is a good thing that Canon won't be using that 24MP APS-C sensor any  time in the near future then isn't it?

This rumor suggests that they will be making a 24MP sensor soon.  I hope they don't 18MP on APS-C is enough.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: moreorless on December 09, 2011, 06:24:20 AM
To be fair the Sony sensor is just one example and represented a larger jump in resolution over a shorter time period than Canon moving to 24 MP would.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: thelebaron on December 10, 2011, 05:37:26 PM
Think the T4i will feature iso performance anywhere near what the C300 can do? What that thing can do is incredible, and Id gladly snap up a new rebel just for that kind of high iso performance
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: tt on December 11, 2011, 04:13:33 PM
Think the T4i will feature iso performance anywhere near what the C300 can do? What that thing can do is incredible, and Id gladly snap up a new rebel just for that kind of high iso performance

It'll be an interesting state of affairs come February/March - either they keep with an old sensor - in which case little change, or upgrade the sensor, but keep same MP - in which case the 650D gets closer to the 7D's performance.
Would cause disruption if the 650D got a sensor better in ISO than the 7D.  But then why not? Do they wait another year till the other lines have updated (5D, 7D)?
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: whatta on December 14, 2011, 03:34:50 AM
It'll be an interesting state of affairs come February/March - either they keep with an old sensor - in which case little change, or upgrade the sensor, but keep same MP - in which case the 650D gets closer to the 7D's performance.
as far as I know the IQ of 550d/600d is identical to the 7d. same sensor same digic4. So 650d with digic 5 should have better IQ than the 7d.
Title: Re: Canon EOS Rebel T4i [CR2]
Post by: whatta on December 14, 2011, 03:46:02 AM
Now that dpreview has reviewed the NEX-7 and said "It's no stretch to say that, at its best, the NEX-7 offers the finest still image quality of any APS-C camera, bar none."
http://www.canonpricewatch.com/price-changes/
very interesting aspects, indeed.. I hope the nex7 has not arrived too late for the 650d, and therefore it will have a new sensor as well not only digic5. I am not interested in more MP, but better IQ and iso and DR are always welcome.