canon rumors FORUM

Rumors => EOS Bodies => Topic started by: Canon Rumors on December 28, 2011, 06:14:12 PM

Title: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: Canon Rumors on December 28, 2011, 06:14:12 PM
7D Mark II I’m told along with others that a 7D Mark II will be one of the big items Canon shows at Photokina 2012 in Cologne, Germany.

I’m told the camera will be APS-C, even though there have been murmurs about it being APS-H.

B&H Deal on the 7D Speaking of the 7D, B&H has a deal on it kitted with the EF-S 18-135 IS for $1575 shipped (USA). (Buy)

cr

Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: smirkypants on December 28, 2011, 06:25:04 PM
And the clouds parted. And the angels sang. And there was much rejoicing.
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: surfing_geek on December 28, 2011, 06:25:49 PM
Woohoo!  I bloody hope so! That would make my year :)  Finally I'm approaching the level of saving needed to buy something new :)



And the clouds parted. And the angels sang. And there was much rejoicing.
- Seconded!
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: wickidwombat on December 28, 2011, 06:29:51 PM
it makes sense that it would remain APS-C and the flagship crop body.

looks like it could be an expensive year for me with a new 5D and 7D model coming out
I hope they bundle it with the 17-55 f2.8 IS and not some other bizzar lens like they did with the 7D
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: D_Rochat on December 28, 2011, 06:33:21 PM
I'm very interested to see where they go with this one since it's the only remaining zD with a crop sensor. If they did happen to go with an APS-H, do you think it would be a recycled 1D mkIV sensor or a new one? hmmm ??? I think they really need to separate this one from the zzD line.
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: KHAWACHEN on December 28, 2011, 06:35:15 PM
2012 will be a good year for those looking for new body or bodies.

Just picked up a new 7D body for $1100.  I bet the new 7D M2 will be at least $1599 for body alone.

it makes sense that it would remain APS-C and the flagship crop body.

looks like it could be an expensive year for me with a new 5D and 7D model coming out
I hope they bundle it with the 17-55 f2.8 IS and not some other bizzar lens like they did with the 7D

- Agreed. 
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: Mt Spokane Photography on December 28, 2011, 06:35:55 PM
I'd expect a relatively minor update, the other models are still catching up to the 7D features.  Probably nothing a current 7D owner would want to upgrade for.

New Battery, new video features, larger LCD, digic V, and a lower MP sensor.
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: surfing_geek on December 28, 2011, 06:41:02 PM

I'd expect a relatively minor update, the other models are still catching up to the 7D features.  Probably nothing a current 7D owner would want to upgrade for.

New Battery, new video features, larger LCD, digic V, and a lower MP sensor.


coming from a 400d, that would do me nicely ta!


hopefully going to be a VERY happy new year!
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: wickidwombat on December 28, 2011, 06:47:21 PM
I'd expect a relatively minor update, the other models are still catching up to the 7D features.  Probably nothing a current 7D owner would want to upgrade for.

New Battery, new video features, larger LCD, digic V, and a lower MP sensor.

I hope they leave the battery the same I want them to be interchangeable with the 5DII. the current battery is awesome anyway (not broke dont fix it)
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: lonelywhitelights on December 28, 2011, 06:50:25 PM
As far as a Mark II 7D goes:

the only thing I would look to improve on my current 7D is the low light / high ISO performance, other than that I have no issues at all. very hard to fault the 7D and very hard to decide what to upgrade.. lower MP might be an idea? the 15mp on the 50D is really rather good...
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: Rowbear on December 28, 2011, 06:53:15 PM
Its been "top of the crops" for two years now, so until Nikon brings a D400 to the table, they sure don't need to rush out a 7D II.
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: 100 on December 28, 2011, 06:59:07 PM
If they use APS-H it needs more megapixel (18mp APS-C is about 27mp ASP-H), a descent crop mode for APS-C and the ability to use EF-S lenses. APS-H doesn’t seem likely, but not many people predicted an 18mp FF successor for both the 1D and 1Ds.
If they put a descent AF in with the ability to autofocus up to F8 it would be a great wildlife camera.
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: wickidwombat on December 28, 2011, 07:04:39 PM
If they use APS-H it needs more megapixel (18mp APS-C is about 27mp ASP-H), a descent crop mode for APS-C and the ability to use EF-S lenses. APS-H doesn’t seem likely, but not many people predicted an 18mp FF successor for both the 1D and 1Ds.
If they put a descent AF in with the ability to autofocus up to F8 it would be a great wildlife camera.
Wow I hadn't even considered canon doing something like that, While I think that would be absolute nirvana I cant see them doing it. I think even in Nikons line only the D3s and D3x do the automatic crop when using DX lenses, i'm not sure about the D700 as I havent used one.
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: JR on December 28, 2011, 07:10:26 PM
If they use APS-H it needs more megapixel (18mp APS-C is about 27mp ASP-H), a descent crop mode for APS-C and the ability to use EF-S lenses. APS-H doesn’t seem likely, but not many people predicted an 18mp FF successor for both the 1D and 1Ds.
If they put a descent AF in with the ability to autofocus up to F8 it would be a great wildlife camera.


Very unlikely, but man that would be sweet! 
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: Doodah on December 28, 2011, 07:38:36 PM
It appears Canon is really taking Nikon head-on: 5D2 vs D800, 7D2 vs D400. And Nikon is pitching their D4 against Canon's 1DX. Interesting times.

However, I'll like to see Canon's response to Nikon V1/J1 and Nikkor wide angle lenses (both primes and zooms).
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: smirkypants on December 28, 2011, 08:24:58 PM
CR 1... the clouds returned, the angels packed it up, and the rejoicing was put on hold until further notice.
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: Zuuyi on December 28, 2011, 08:47:40 PM
I'm telling "Santa" I need this for 2012 Christmas.
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: D_Rochat on December 28, 2011, 08:56:24 PM
It's without a doubt too early to tell, but isn't the speculation fun :D The 7DmkII is likely going to be my next purchase unless it's a monumental disappointment or a used 1DmkIV comes down in price enough to get my attention. Either way, I think they have to step up a bit with the new 7D. The D7000 to me appears to be a better overall camera than the 7D, and it's not even in Nikon's "Pro" lineup like the 7D is suppose to be. Like I said in another post, I believe Canon is revamping their zD line and I wouldn't be surprised to see a total change in the 7D. But that's complete speculation and opinion mixed with a little hope.

I don't expect to hear anything until we at least have rock solid info on the 5DmkIII. I do look forward to it though.
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: unfocused on December 28, 2011, 09:32:52 PM
I'd expect a relatively minor update, the other models are still catching up to the 7D features.  Probably nothing a current 7D owner would want to upgrade for.

New Battery, new video features, larger LCD, digic V, and a lower MP sensor.

I don't think so. Remember that the 7D will be three years old by the time Photokina rolls around. The three year cycle makes me believe Canon will want to give current owners an incentive to upgrade. They learned the risks of incremental upgrades with the 50D, I doubt they make that mistake again. And, since the market has matured so much over the past few years, (meaning slower growth) I'm sure they realize that they can't just rely on Rebel and 60D upgraders.

They don't want current 7D owners (like me) sitting on our wallets. Question is, how best to get us to pony up?

I'm  guessing they will concentrate on improved image quality, ISO performance and auto-focus improvements.

The on-camera flash has a couple of problems that need to be fixed (contacts too easily bend and jam the flash shut and the flash itself overheats way too easily -- making the infrared trigger useless)  But, those are about the only major issues that I am aware of.

Possibly some video improvements, but unlike the 5DII, I don't believe the 7D is viewed by Canon as a top video DSLR. I'm no video person, so I certainly could be wrong about that.

We know Canon is watching very carefully how the pro-market reacts to the death of the APS-H sensor. (Repeat after me: Canon will not put an APS-H sensor in a 7D. Canon will not put an APS-H sensor in a 7D...)

But, they could decide to sufficiently upgrade the 7D to target pro-sports and wildlife shooters. Either in a base model or in a 7D-X.
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: photophreek on December 28, 2011, 10:03:37 PM
I'd be interested in an upgraded 7D only if the RAW files are cleaned up.  I've looked at a lot of CR2 files at all ISO levels and if an upgraded 7D could give me cleaner RAW files I'd be there. 

The AF system is more than I need and the internal flash system works well for me and many Speedlites.  I have no complaints about the IQ and I wouldn't want more pixels crowding an already crowded sensor. 

A new battery grip with the multi-controller button on the grip similar to the 1D X would be very handy and it would be very nice if the batteries could be the same.  One other thing would be an improvement is AF Servo performance which isn't the greatest on the current 7D. 
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: ronderick on December 28, 2011, 10:08:09 PM
We know Canon is watching very carefully how the pro-market reacts to the death of the APS-H sensor. (Repeat after me: Canon will not put an APS-H sensor in a 7D. Canon will not put an APS-H sensor in a 7D...)

But, they could decide to sufficiently upgrade the 7D to target pro-sports and wildlife shooters. Either in a base model or in a 7D-X.

Don't know about whether they're going to stick the APS-H sensor in or not, but one thing Canon can do is to upgrade/update the original 18MP sensor (seems like there's been complaints about it...).

Of course, we can always hope for a better AF system ;D
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: AprilForever on December 28, 2011, 10:38:19 PM
If Canon lowers the MP of the 7D mk II, I will not get one.

If they make it ASP-H, I will smite Canon!
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: wickidwombat on December 28, 2011, 10:45:51 PM
We know Canon is watching very carefully how the pro-market reacts to the death of the APS-H sensor. (Repeat after me: Canon will not put an APS-H sensor in a 7D. Canon will not put an APS-H sensor in a 7D...)

But, they could decide to sufficiently upgrade the 7D to target pro-sports and wildlife shooters. Either in a base model or in a 7D-X.

Don't know about whether they're going to stick the APS-H sensor in or not, but one thing Canon can do is to upgrade/update the original 18MP sensor (seems like there's been complaints about it...).

Of course, we can always hope for a better AF system ;D
since you said that i heard they are going to put the 5DII AF into it :P
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: JonJT on December 29, 2011, 01:13:15 AM
I'm in agreement with everyone that thinks that the 7Dmkii will be of higher megapixel count and will remain APS-C.  An ASP-H 7D would cut off the upgrade path for those 7D users who have invested heavily in EF and EF-S lenses (particularly the latter) and have become accustomed to the FOV provided by the lenses they have purchased. 

Of course, I'm assuming that the 60D remains the "super rebel" it currently is.  Turning the 60D into an APS-C 7D replacement is just as unlikely as an APS-H 7Dmkii, IMO.  Rather, the 7D will stay APS-C and, will simply be improved upon.  The issue is simply, what will be changed?

I'd like to see a significant improvement in low light and high ISO performance, something to stoutly supersede the performance of Nikon and Sony's best APS-C cameras.  That would entice this 60D owner to trade in his body for this new beastie.
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: CatfishSoupFTW on December 29, 2011, 01:22:33 AM
i hope this baby does show up sooon! im dying for a replacement of my 40D !
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: AllSeeingEye on December 29, 2011, 02:05:41 AM
response to Nikon V1/J1
This ugly crap doesn't need any response.

Though APS-C'ed mirrorless camera from Canon could be nice in theory, I don't see Canon fractionating it's product line with another set of cams and lenses.
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: D_Rochat on December 29, 2011, 02:11:12 AM
JonJT, whether or not Canon puts an APS-H sensor in the 7D is unknown (likely or not) and I don't believe they are concerned about your investments in EF-S lenses. They might look at it as more lens sales. IF (and a big one) they do go the APS-H route, maybe they'd be nice enough to make it an APS-C mount on it like Nikon has for their FF. I don't see why they couldn't. I don't agree with the FOV argument either. Most people move up to the zD line because they are progressing and need/want better equipment. Adapting to new equipment is just part of progress.

What ever they choose to do with the 7D, I just think there needs to be more separation between the zzD line and the 7D. IMHO, there just isn't enough at the moment. According to Canon's release timeline, they are also due to put out the 70D and if you were to make the 60D any better, it would be as good if not better than the current 7D. I'm tired. Am I making any sense?  :o

I understand they can't make it too good or it may hurt sales in the rest of the lineup, but I think making it sort of a mini 1Dx with an APS-? sensor would be the best move. Improve the image processor, ISO performance to at least 12,800 before expansion, maybe 10fps RAW, improved battery grip with more function (still a separate purchase), more cross-type AF points, etc. Sort of a 1Dx Lite.

As I said before, the mkII is likely going to be my replacement and I just hope it's not just a lazy attempt to sell more cameras. I'd like it to stand out and shine against it's competitors and the zzD line. It would be nice to have the APS-H with EF-S capability though.
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: JonJT on December 29, 2011, 02:20:36 AM
JonJT, whether or not Canon puts an APS-H sensor in the 7D is unknown (likely or not) and I don't believe they are concerned about your investments in EF-S lenses. They might look at it as more lens sales. IF (and a big one) they do go the APS-H route, maybe they'd be nice enough to make it an APS-C mount on it like Nikon has for their FF. I don't see why they couldn't. I don't agree with the FOV argument either. Most people move up to the zD line because they are progressing and need/want better equipment. Adapting to new equipment is just part of progress.

What ever they choose to do with the 7D, I just think there needs to be more separation between the zzD line and the 7D. IMHO, there just isn't enough at the moment. According to Canon's release timeline, they are also due to put out the 70D and if you were to make the 60D any better, it would be as good if not better than the current 7D. I'm tired. Am I making any sense?  :o

I understand they can't make it too good or it may hurt sales in the rest of the lineup, but I think making it sort of a mini 1Dx with an APS-? sensor would be the best move. Improve the image processor, ISO performance to at least 12,800 before expansion, maybe 10fps RAW, improved battery grip with more function (still a separate purchase), more cross-type AF points, etc. Sort of a 1Dx Lite.

As I said before, the mkII is likely going to be my replacement and I just hope it's not just a lazy attempt to sell more cameras. I'd like it to stand out and shine against it's competitors and the zzD line. It would be nice to have the APS-H with EF-S capability though.

Hmmm well, I'm not convinced that Canon needs to move to APS-H to create the 7Dmkii that they and hopefully we think they should produce.  But, of course, that remains to be seen.
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: briansquibb on December 29, 2011, 02:22:46 AM
I suspect that Canon see sports lens as big white things - which explains why there are no EF-S above 250mm - and no top EF-S after the 15-85. In fact there are very few L quality IQ EF-S lens so why would they worry about keeping that going

Just a thought that the APS-H could be developed easily to be 25mps with low noise, much easier than doing it with APS-C


Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: EOS 5D Mark III on December 29, 2011, 02:54:59 AM
Looks like 2012 will be a very busy year for Canon...

EOS 650D
EOS 1D X
EOS 5D Mark III
EOS 7D Mark II

I don't see this will happen!  :o
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: handsomerob on December 29, 2011, 03:24:48 AM
Looks like 2012 will be a very busy year for Canon...

EOS 650D
EOS 1D X
EOS 5D Mark III
EOS 7D Mark II

I don't see this will happen!  :o

Why not?

1Dx is already certain.
650D is also pretty much certain since they announce a new Rebel every year. This is the most important segment to keep "fresh" to attract first time DSLR buyers.
Lots of 5DIII rumors lately, it's also long overdue.
And finally, what is better than a 7DII for Canon to steal the show at Photokina? 7D will be 3 yo by then.

Canon likes busy years, since they released 3 or 4 cameras before, all in the same year:

3 cameras in 2007 (40D, 1DIII and 1DsIII)
4 cameras in 2008 (1000D, 450D, 50D and 5DII)
3 cameras in 2009 (500D, 7D and 1DIV)

2010 and 2011 were rather quiet with only 2 cameras each year. So I think we deserve a satisfying new year ;)
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: Doodah on December 29, 2011, 03:29:43 AM
It's getting VERY competitive out there. Mirrorless cameras have snatched up 40% of the Japanese market for cameras with interchangeable lenses.

In 2008, Nikon released 4 cameras: D60, D90, D3X, D700 and Canon released 1000D, 50D and 5D2. In 2009, Nikon D3000, D5000, D300s, D3s were released and Canon responded with 500D, 7D and 1D4.

It is entirely conceivable for Canon to release 4 cameras in 2012. Besides, the 1DX has already been announced in 2011 and shipment was probably delayed by natural calamities in Asia.
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: lol on December 29, 2011, 06:02:40 AM
I'd guess higher MP APS-C for the sensor too. Can't see a sensor size change if the model number is kept, but that doesn't exclude a new model in the lineup, since I feel there is a gap left by the 1D X which could be filled in many ways.

The 18MP sensor introduced with the 7D has been stuck in *almost* every APS-C camera Canon released since, so I think it likely whatever is in the 7D2 will also go into other lower bodies in due course. Sony are already at 24MP, and I doubt Nikon will sit on 16MP for too long either. So for a consumer level target I'd say more is more, but at the same time wouldn't write off the possibility they split the line into two major sensor types (excluding xxxxD), although I don't feel this as likely.
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: Wadee on December 29, 2011, 08:39:00 AM
Moment what I've waited for ;) if this is true now can't wait to hear specs of it!
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: candyman on December 29, 2011, 10:07:53 AM
....................can't wait to hear specs of it!

Yes, I would like to have some CR2 / CR3 level rumors with camera specs too!
Lately we get rumors that only addresses the possible announcement dates ....
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: K-amps on December 29, 2011, 11:27:47 AM
My predictions are almost always wrong... so here goes nothing:


The naming convention is so convenient isnt it  ;) The smaller the sensor the larger the model number etc. So 5 and below = FF, 6 = 1.3x crop, 7 and above 1.6x crop maybe even have the Kiss line add a 2.0x crop in future further reducing the cost of the entry level DSLR.
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: EYEONE on December 29, 2011, 01:49:31 PM
I don't think Canon will make the 7D II a APS-H. I think it actually makes a lot of sense for them too. They can make the 7DII  APS-H and then put the 70D much higher in the range to take the place of the 7D for people that want to stick with their EF-S Lenses.

I'm only really in the market for a FF camera in the future so I'm not so concerned with what the 7DII will be.  I'm happy with my 7D now. But I will be much less likely to upgrade it if it's just a high MP APS-C camera. Canon needs to either redesign the 18mp sensor or put a APS-H in it for me to be interested.

I know I'm not the normal customer perhaps. I have no EF-S lenses to worry about and I'm content with my 7D. The 7D's AF is fantastic, the build quality is great and the feature list is outstanding. The only thing the 7D really needs is a new sensor. I would be fine with the amount of noise at high ISOs if the pattern was prettier.
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: moreorless on December 29, 2011, 02:06:13 PM
I don't think Canon will make the 7D II a APS-H. I think it actually makes a lot of sense for them too. They can make the 7DII  APS-H and then put the 70D much higher in the range to take the place of the 7D for people that want to stick with their EF-S Lenses.

I'm only really in the market for a FF camera in the future so I'm not so concerned with what the 7DII will be.  I'm happy with my 7D now. But I will be much less likely to upgrade it if it's just a high MP APS-C camera. Canon needs to either redesign the 18mp sensor or put a APS-H in it for me to be interested.

I know I'm not the normal customer perhaps. I have no EF-S lenses to worry about and I'm content with my 7D. The 7D's AF is fantastic, the build quality is great and the feature list is outstanding. The only thing the 7D really needs is a new sensor. I would be fine with the amount of noise at high ISOs if the pattern was prettier.

As has been said though going ASPH would be users with EF-S lenses would be less likely to upgrade and would also mean that the new system lacked UWA coverage, not a problem for the 1D but the 7D has been marketed as a more all round system.

If Canon really wanted to target the 1D userbase then I'd guess staying at 18 megapixels, upping the AF and FPS would be the most obvious way to go with the extra range of the 1.6 crop being the big selling point.
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: AprilForever on December 29, 2011, 02:24:23 PM
What many commenting here don't seem to get is the two main draws of the 7D:

1. 1.6x crop sensor. This is a huge reason of why I wanted it over the 5D. I need the reach. A 800 5.6 is simply out of my reach financially. And, it;s pretty unwieldy to boot.

2. 18 mp. This is hugely important for bird and wildlife photography. Fewer pixels would mean less to work with, and more problems when working with it.
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: EYEONE on December 29, 2011, 02:48:01 PM
I don't think Canon will make the 7D II a APS-H. I think it actually makes a lot of sense for them too. They can make the 7DII  APS-H and then put the 70D much higher in the range to take the place of the 7D for people that want to stick with their EF-S Lenses.

I'm only really in the market for a FF camera in the future so I'm not so concerned with what the 7DII will be.  I'm happy with my 7D now. But I will be much less likely to upgrade it if it's just a high MP APS-C camera. Canon needs to either redesign the 18mp sensor or put a APS-H in it for me to be interested.

I know I'm not the normal customer perhaps. I have no EF-S lenses to worry about and I'm content with my 7D. The 7D's AF is fantastic, the build quality is great and the feature list is outstanding. The only thing the 7D really needs is a new sensor. I would be fine with the amount of noise at high ISOs if the pattern was prettier.

As has been said though going ASPH would be users with EF-S lenses would be less likely to upgrade and would also mean that the new system lacked UWA coverage, not a problem for the 1D but the 7D has been marketed as a more all round system.

If Canon really wanted to target the 1D userbase then I'd guess staying at 18 megapixels, upping the AF and FPS would be the most obvious way to go with the extra range of the 1.6 crop being the big selling point.

I understand that but I addressed that issue in my post. Users of the 7D that want to update (ones with lots of EF-S) can look at the new xxD. The APS-C market is a little too crowded. I think moving the 7D up and allowing the 70D to return the xxD line to it's historic position could work. Make it a $1400 camera with some of the speed and possibly the AF system of the 7D and a new sensor. As it stands Canon has 4 cameras with the same sensor between $800 and $1400

No one here has suggested that you lose your 1.6 crop. If you want that there will be plenty of new 1.6 crop cameras (xxD)

All of this is useless anyway because Canon isn't going to do it. The 7D will be APS-C and it will have tons of MPs.
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: D_Rochat on December 29, 2011, 03:22:11 PM
I don't know how people are so certain on how the 7D mkII will be built. It's all speculation at this point and the EF-S lens argument doesn't matter. Do you really think Canon is overly concerned about how you chose to invest in lenses? They are still a business out to make money. As stated in a previous post, the 70D is likely going to be better than the 7D, so there's always that IF Canon puts in a larger sensor. If they stick with APC-S, then EF-S users can rejoice. The point is that no one knows for sure.

What I THINK is happening is that Canon is restructuring their Pro lineup and there will be big changes. What ever happens, I think it will be an exciting year for Canon with new bodies and lenses coming out on the market.
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: distant.star on December 29, 2011, 04:14:46 PM

Seems like a lot of ifs with this one...

If we don't have some nuclear conflagration in either the mid-east or someplace in Asia....

If we don't have a world economic collapse, starting with Europe....

If there is actually a Photokina show in late September.....

If Canon actually announces such a product....

If it's announced, will there actually be availability before January 2013?

And if nothing else happens to interrupt what we see as normal!
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: gmrza on December 29, 2011, 05:07:40 PM
Looks like 2012 will be a very busy year for Canon...

EOS 650D
EOS 1D X
EOS 5D Mark III
EOS 7D Mark II

I don't see this will happen!  :o

Keep in mind, however, that 2012 is the 25th anniversary of the EOS system and the 75th anniversary of Canon's incorporation as a company.  I think Canon will be trying to make a lot of marketing mileage out of those two events.  Canon will be trying to promote its technological prowess as much as possible.  We could thus see more new products than during an average year.
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: wickidwombat on December 29, 2011, 05:16:53 PM
I understand that but I addressed that issue in my post. Users of the 7D that want to update (ones with lots of EF-S) can look at the new xxD. The APS-C market is a little too crowded. I think moving the 7D up and allowing the 70D to return the xxD line to it's historic position could work. Make it a $1400 camera with some of the speed and possibly the AF system of the 7D and a new sensor. As it stands Canon has 4 cameras with the same sensor between $800 and $1400

No one here has suggested that you lose your 1.6 crop. If you want that there will be plenty of new 1.6 crop cameras (xxD)

All of this is useless anyway because Canon isn't going to do it. The 7D will be APS-C and it will have tons of MPs.
this would work but they would have to give the 70D equivalent weather sealing to the current 7D to keep wildlife and birders happy. I definately agree with you as the 60D currently seems like the odd one out, doesnt offer alot more than a 600D and is no where near as good as a 7D with all 3 having the same sensor.

I really would LOVE an APS-H small form factor camera dont care what it gets called.
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: traveller on December 29, 2011, 06:41:43 PM
I can't see APS-H returning in the 7D line, I think that for all intents and purposes it is now dead. 

I could see Canon upping a lot of the specifications of the 7D Mk. II to turn it into a mini-1D X, now that the 1D series has gone full frame.  I could also see that staying at 18MP would work within this marketing scheme; the only problem would be selling this sensor in lower end cameras, now that the other manufacturers are starting to push megapixels.

P.S. In case you didn't get the message from many of the review sites, more megapixels are good now that it isn't Canon leading the way.  Indeed, once Nikon adopt the 24MP Sony APS-C sensor, DP Review will declare that they don't know how they managed to live with so few previously (hell they even gave the A77 one whole percent more than the D7000  -that's quite something!). 
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: AprilForever on December 29, 2011, 06:43:56 PM
I can't see APS-H returning in the 7D line, I think that for all intents and purposes it is now dead. 

I could see Canon upping a lot of the specifications of the 7D Mk. II to turn it into a mini-1D X, now that the 1D series has gone full frame.  I could also see that staying at 18MP would work within this marketing scheme; the only problem would be selling this sensor in lower end cameras, now that the other manufacturers are starting to push megapixels.

P.S. In case you didn't get the message from many of the review sites, more megapixels are good now that it isn't Canon leading the way.  Indeed, once Nikon adopt the 24MP Sony APS-C sensor, DP Review will declare that they don't know how they managed to live with so few previously (hell they even gave the A77 one whole percent more than the D7000  -that's quite something!).

Indeed they are good. And may we see many more of them!
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: moreorless on December 30, 2011, 01:19:48 AM
I understand that but I addressed that issue in my post. Users of the 7D that want to update (ones with lots of EF-S) can look at the new xxD. The APS-C market is a little too crowded. I think moving the 7D up and allowing the 70D to return the xxD line to it's historic position could work. Make it a $1400 camera with some of the speed and possibly the AF system of the 7D and a new sensor. As it stands Canon has 4 cameras with the same sensor between $800 and $1400

No one here has suggested that you lose your 1.6 crop. If you want that there will be plenty of new 1.6 crop cameras (xxD)

All of this is useless anyway because Canon isn't going to do it. The 7D will be APS-C and it will have tons of MPs.

7D users buying a 70D means less money for Canon though and as has been said theres less of a draw for 1D users aswell if the 7D remains ASPH with no extra crop.

I agree the 7D mk2 and the 70D could do with more space between them than between the 7D/60D but I don't think ASPH is needed for that, just up the 7D mk2's FPS and AF plus possible use different ASPC sensors with the 70D upping megapixels and the 7D mk2 ISO performance.

The 1D mk4 is hardly that old either so Canon really isnt in desperate need of a new ASPH body in the short term, I'd guess they'll see how it sells compaired to the 1DX and 7D mk2 in 2012 and make a decision from there.
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: JonJT on December 30, 2011, 03:37:50 AM
I don't know how people are so certain on how the 7D mkII will be built. It's all speculation at this point and the EF-S lens argument doesn't matter. Do you really think Canon is overly concerned about how you chose to invest in lenses? They are still a business out to make money. As stated in a previous post, the 70D is likely going to be better than the 7D, so there's always that IF Canon puts in a larger sensor. If they stick with APC-S, then EF-S users can rejoice. The point is that no one knows for sure.

What I THINK is happening is that Canon is restructuring their Pro lineup and there will be big changes. What ever happens, I think it will be an exciting year for Canon with new bodies and lenses coming out on the market.

They most certainly care.  Companies care a lot about the buying habits of their customers.  Catering to those habits is exactly how companies make money.  Just how did you think Canon, or any company for that matter, plans on making money if they don't care about what their customers want and what they purchase????


Edit: As a counter point to your argument, take even a cursory look at the American automotive industry.  In short, people knew what they wanted and it was not what the big three were offering.  Today, those same companies model their designs after and aspire to rival the aesthetics of the Euro automakers while achieving the same reliability as the Japanese.  All this, because people were, largely, telling them to f' off and it was affecting their bottom line.  Canon WILL listen to an extent, it's life depends on it. 
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: D_Rochat on December 30, 2011, 04:09:34 AM
I'm still not convinced. I'm sure they care just enough to not have their customer's running to another company. And I hardly doubt anyone would switch brands over an APS-H in a 7D mkII, especially since the cost of replacing lenses is their main concern. Think of the cost to switch systems entirely.

Don't get me wrong though. I'm not trying to put Canon down in any way or sour with them. I just still believe they are just another company trying to turn a profit any way they think they can. If they think they'll make more money in the long run with a new sensor, I don't believe pissing off a few EF-S users is going to be a big deal to them. Besides, if they really cared, they would allow EF-S lenses to attach to FF and APS-H bodies and make everyone happy.
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: Edwin Herdman on December 30, 2011, 04:43:12 AM
APS-H...I am familiar with the APS-C crop factor, and full frame speaks for itself.  APS-H would cause headaches for anybody moving up from Rebel bodies or the 7D, unless they had mostly wide (edit: non-EF-S, at that) zooms that they wanted to be wider.  I have mostly primes and I generally want my zoom lens to be longer.  I'm not ready to bury APS-H but I don't see it being an easy upgrade proposition from Canon for the 7D.  For better or worse, it's always been an oddball FL.  APS-C being a de facto format size might end up being the deciding factor for Canon even more than the increased cost of producing APS-H sensors.

About the idea of a 7D upgrade, I am somewhat enthusiastic.  I had wanted to skip the 18mp generation entirely, but I am not seeing any quality loss and in fact see some slight quality increase on the 7D in some cases - it is mostly a slight increase, however.  Coupled with the great price I got mine at making the cost of upgrade less painful to eat, I do not see any reason to expect a 7D successor this year wouldn't be a worthy upgrade.

The Nikon V1/J1 may look like just a goofy inbetweener product right now, but the pretty clean quality of its ISO 800 files means that Canon needs to update its own sensors to stay ahead of the curve, if even tiny-sensor mirrorless cameras can approach its size.
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: briansquibb on December 30, 2011, 05:14:11 AM
I suspect that 7D owners swearing allegiance to APS-C have not had the pleasure of a 1D4. Totally different ball game as I found out.

There is no way I would go back to an APS-C having made the jump.

7D is a good camera, just in a different league from the 1D4
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: traveller on December 30, 2011, 05:34:52 AM
I don't think it is the EF-S lens issue that would decide whether a 7D Mk. II would be APS-C; it is more likely to be the position that Canon wishes to market the 1D X in.  If Canon were to fit the 7D Mk. II with an upgraded APS-H sensor, they would risk 1D Mk.IV users who wanted the extra reach moving to the 7D Mk. II instead of the 1D X, costing them thousands in lost margins. 

I think that it would pay Canon to place the 7D Mk. II at the top of the crop line with all the goodies (and I do mean all: AF & metering systems and 10+ fps burst rate) from the 1D X except the full frame sensor.  I think that this could be done now that the 1D line has moved away from APS-H and created a clearer marketing distinction.  If Canon were smart enough to implement the 1D series control system (button layout etc) like Nikon do with the D300 - D3, it would also make the 7D Mk. II an attractive second (or third) body for 1D X users when more reach is required. 
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: AprilForever on December 30, 2011, 06:35:37 AM
I don't know how people are so certain on how the 7D mkII will be built. It's all speculation at this point and the EF-S lens argument doesn't matter. Do you really think Canon is overly concerned about how you chose to invest in lenses? They are still a business out to make money. As stated in a previous post, the 70D is likely going to be better than the 7D, so there's always that IF Canon puts in a larger sensor. If they stick with APC-S, then EF-S users can rejoice. The point is that no one knows for sure.

What I THINK is happening is that Canon is restructuring their Pro lineup and there will be big changes. What ever happens, I think it will be an exciting year for Canon with new bodies and lenses coming out on the market.



They most certainly care.  Companies care a lot about the buying habits of their customers.  Catering to those habits is exactly how companies make money.  Just how did you think Canon, or any company for that matter, plans on making money if they don't care about what their customers want and what they purchase????


Edit: As a counter point to your argument, take even a cursory look at the American automotive industry.  In short, people knew what they wanted and it was not what the big three were offering.  Today, those same companies model their designs after and aspire to rival the aesthetics of the Euro automakers while achieving the same reliability as the Japanese.  All this, because people were, largely, telling them to f' off and it was affecting their bottom line.  Canon WILL listen to an extent, it's life depends on it.

Indeed. And I, and likely the vast majority of 7D users, would be quite upset to see our lenses shorter, our megapixels fewer, or other adulterations to what is 7D. What defines the 7D is high MP, ASP-C, with advanced AF, burst, and weather sealing. Changing parts of this makes it not a 7D.
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: briansquibb on December 30, 2011, 10:23:00 AM

Indeed. And I, and likely the vast majority of 7D users, would be quite upset to see our lenses shorter, our megapixels fewer, or other adulterations to what is 7D. What defines the 7D is high MP, ASP-C, with advanced AF, burst, and weather sealing. Changing parts of this makes it not a 7D.

I am sure 1D4 shooter will have a smile on their face with that comment  ;D ;D

Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: AprilForever on December 30, 2011, 12:46:26 PM

Indeed. And I, and likely the vast majority of 7D users, would be quite upset to see our lenses shorter, our megapixels fewer, or other adulterations to what is 7D. What defines the 7D is high MP, ASP-C, with advanced AF, burst, and weather sealing. Changing parts of this makes it not a 7D.

I am sure 1D4 shooter will have a smile on their face with that comment  ;D ;D

Let them.  ;D  ;D

Not everyone is rich enough to be one of them, so while the smiles, the masses must suffer with our gear we have...
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: anthony11 on December 30, 2011, 01:10:32 PM
Since TFA didn't see fit to mention it, Photokina 2012 appears to be at the end of February.
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: JonJT on December 30, 2011, 01:50:03 PM
I'm still not convinced. I'm sure they care just enough to not have their customer's running to another company. And I hardly doubt anyone would switch brands over an APS-H in a 7D mkII, especially since the cost of replacing lenses is their main concern. Think of the cost to switch systems entirely.

Don't get me wrong though. I'm not trying to put Canon down in any way or sour with them. I just still believe they are just another company trying to turn a profit any way they think they can. If they think they'll make more money in the long run with a new sensor, I don't believe pissing off a few EF-S users is going to be a big deal to them. Besides, if they really cared, they would allow EF-S lenses to attach to FF and APS-H bodies and make everyone happy.

Eh, both Canon and Nikon have cared enough to do far more than "just" what was necessary to prevent their customers from running to another company.  Nothing says either will stop doing that now.
Let me just say that companies make money by addressing their customers needs.  This is a universal paradigm, PARTICULARLY in an industry that is as saturated and hasty as digital imaging.  Unless you happen to manufacturer for a very specific niche (Leica, Hasselbald, etc), you will loose ground if you don't innovate and listen to what your customers want. 


Anyway, you are right, people probably will not switch brands over a switch to an ASP-H sensor in the 7Dmkii but, it might mean that the upgrade path is cut off for a lot of people.  This is particularly true because an APS-H sensor costs quite a bit more to produce than an APS-C sensor, especially when you realize that APS-C sensors are used in the majority of Canon's cameras.  But, you are right, Canon is going to do what will make them the most profit but, I just think that such a decision is predicated more so on what customers want and need more than internal politics or, perhaps, technicalities.  And, I don't think the average 7D user really wants or needs the added expense of an APS-H 7Dmkii.

Edit: One other thing that came to mind.  Lens choice, aside from the general EF-S mount argument.  Remember that the previous APS-H camera was designed specifically with sport shooting in mind.  Sport shooting at the highest professional level.  The 7D is no such camera.  Pros and amateurs alike use this camera.  Canon knows this.  If the 7D becomes APS-H, there will be no suitable standard zooms or wide angle zooms for it.  That means that Canon has to develop and encourage everyone to buy a new camera body and 2 new lenses.  I don't think Canon wants to turn the 7D into a mini 1Dx.
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: unfocused on December 30, 2011, 03:37:40 PM
Somebody please explain the fascination with APS-H sensors that some folks seem to have.

It was a niche/transitional sensor that has been overtaken by improvements in sensor technology. Unlike the ASP-C sensor, Canon saw early on that it did not have a long-term future and never made any lenses for the format.

Recent interviews with Canon executives make it pretty clear they feel the difference now between APS-C and full frame is so narrow that there isn't any point anymore in the APS-H sensor. Instead, they are contemplating if they need to offer a professional grade camera in the APS-C format for pro sports and wildlife shooters.

Add to this Fuji's work on organic sensor technology which they claim will allow them to produce a smaller sensor with image quality equal to or greater than current full frame sensors. Keep in mind that Fuji is the only competitor that Canon has acknowledged they are concerned about (with good reason, given Fuji's track record. Remember that Fuji was able to do something that Kodak proved incapable of doing: successfully transition from film to digital)

Canon did produce an experimental APS-H sensor of 120mp, but they also said they had no intention of bringing it into production. If it were ever to show up in a commercial product, the most likely use would be in video security cameras, not consumer still cameras.

If you want an APS-H sensor, buy a 1D MkIV. They are still available and still a great camera. But, don't expect to see the sensor show up in any new models and certainly don't think Canon would stick it into a 7D II.
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: briansquibb on December 30, 2011, 05:14:15 PM
Somebody please explain the fascination with APS-H sensors that some folks seem to have.


- has a crop for the extra apparent reach
- has good low noise
- has good IQ
- has the scope for 25mp+ without compromising the above

The best APS-H body is far better than the best APS-C. So all they have to do is lift the sensor and AF and put it in a (3D) small body and there is a body better than the 7D
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: JonJT on December 30, 2011, 08:35:39 PM
Somebody please explain the fascination with APS-H sensors that some folks seem to have.


- has a crop for the extra apparent reach
- has good low noise
- has good IQ
- has the scope for 25mp+ without compromising the above

The best APS-H body is far better than the best APS-C. So all they have to do is lift the sensor and AF and put it in a (3D) small body and there is a body better than the 7D

Ehhhhh, there are some newer APS-C sensors that are quite close.

On paper, APS-H is better in all the ways mentioned but, is it really so much better as to warrant the increased difficulty and price in manufacturing and sales? 
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: AprilForever on December 30, 2011, 09:03:44 PM
Somebody please explain the fascination with APS-H sensors that some folks seem to have.


- has a crop for the extra apparent reach
- has good low noise
- has good IQ
- has the scope for 25mp+ without compromising the above

The best APS-H body is far better than the best APS-C. So all they have to do is lift the sensor and AF and put it in a (3D) small body and there is a body better than the 7D

Ehhhhh, there are some newer APS-C sensors that are quite close.

On paper, APS-H is better in all the ways mentioned but, is it really so much better as to warrant the increased difficulty and price in manufacturing and sales?

And the loss in focal length?
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: JonJT on December 30, 2011, 11:36:41 PM
Somebody please explain the fascination with APS-H sensors that some folks seem to have.


- has a crop for the extra apparent reach
- has good low noise
- has good IQ
- has the scope for 25mp+ without compromising the above

The best APS-H body is far better than the best APS-C. So all they have to do is lift the sensor and AF and put it in a (3D) small body and there is a body better than the 7D

Ehhhhh, there are some newer APS-C sensors that are quite close.

On paper, APS-H is better in all the ways mentioned but, is it really so much better as to warrant the increased difficulty and price in manufacturing and sales?

And the loss in focal length?

Indeed but, that's been mentioned previously.
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: AprilForever on December 31, 2011, 02:16:24 AM
Somebody please explain the fascination with APS-H sensors that some folks seem to have.


- has a crop for the extra apparent reach
- has good low noise
- has good IQ
- has the scope for 25mp+ without compromising the above

The best APS-H body is far better than the best APS-C. So all they have to do is lift the sensor and AF and put it in a (3D) small body and there is a body better than the 7D

Ehhhhh, there are some newer APS-C sensors that are quite close.

On paper, APS-H is better in all the ways mentioned but, is it really so much better as to warrant the increased difficulty and price in manufacturing and sales?

And the loss in focal length?

Indeed but, that's been mentioned previously.

Sure now, the ASP-H is in a better body than the best ASP-C, but that has nothing to do with the sensor and evrything to do with the body...

ASP-C is amazing, and always shall be. It is here to stay, for a while anyway. Though many might naysay the ASP-C, many also naysay the 2x and more crops of the mirrorless cameras; mirrorless cameras are selling like wildfire, despite a smaller sensor!!!
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: JonJT on December 31, 2011, 02:41:28 AM
Somebody please explain the fascination with APS-H sensors that some folks seem to have.


- has a crop for the extra apparent reach
- has good low noise
- has good IQ
- has the scope for 25mp+ without compromising the above

The best APS-H body is far better than the best APS-C. So all they have to do is lift the sensor and AF and put it in a (3D) small body and there is a body better than the 7D

Ehhhhh, there are some newer APS-C sensors that are quite close.

On paper, APS-H is better in all the ways mentioned but, is it really so much better as to warrant the increased difficulty and price in manufacturing and sales?

And the loss in focal length?

Indeed but, that's been mentioned previously.

Sure now, the ASP-H is in a better body than the best ASP-C, but that has nothing to do with the sensor and evrything to do with the body...

ASP-C is amazing, and always shall be. It is here to stay, for a while anyway. Though many might naysay the ASP-C, many also naysay the 2x and more crops of the mirrorless cameras; mirrorless cameras are selling like wildfire, despite a smaller sensor!!!

Eh, the APS-H sensor in the latest 1D does outperform the current APS-C sensors Canon has to offer.  Whether or not that translates into better images is an entirely different matter.  Regardless, The sensor and the body make a camera great, or not.
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: x-vision on December 31, 2011, 03:08:35 AM
The best APS-H body is far better than the best APS-C.

Right. And costs far more than the best APS-C body.

So, if Canon puts an APS-H sensor in the 7DII, is it reasonable to expect that the 7DII will keep the 7D price ???.
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: x-vision on December 31, 2011, 03:16:47 AM
just up the 7D mk2's FPS and AF plus possible use different ASPC sensors with the 70D upping megapixels and the 7D mk2 ISO performance.

+1.
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: briansquibb on December 31, 2011, 03:53:44 AM
The best APS-H body is far better than the best APS-C.

Right. And costs far more than the best APS-C body.

So, if Canon puts an APS-H sensor in the 7DII, is it reasonable to expect that the 7DII will keep the 7D price ???.

The issue that Canon has is that the 1DX is going to be expensive and the 7D is relatively cheap - this leaves them with a huge gap in their product range.

By taking the APS-H sensor and AF  and putting it in a prosumer body and upping the mps then this gap will be filled - and upgrade path for the current 7D users. We are looking at the 3D/6D body here, selling for about $3000 - $4000 dollars.

This in turn would take the pressure off Canon to make huge improvements in the 7D - which otherwise would become the top Canon sports camera if the 1D4 is killed off (as the anti APS-H people are suggesting).

The 7D is a great camera at its price point - but the pros want more and the 1DX falls short from a sports and wildlife perspective due to the loss of the 1.3 crop. Canon needs a model to fight the Nikon D3S - the loss of the APS-H would leave them vulnerable.
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: briansquibb on December 31, 2011, 04:50:51 AM
The best APS-H body is far better than the best APS-C.

Right. And costs far more than the best APS-C body.

So, if Canon puts an APS-H sensor in the 7DII, is it reasonable to expect that the 7DII will keep the 7D price ???.

Do you think that if the 7DII gets all the upgrades the APS-C lovers want that it will still come in at $1500? And then everyone will start shouting at Canon about the price increases. It will be better for Canon to do a minor refresh (and give it the 7DII tag) at the same price and introduce a more serious pro sports body as an upgrade path
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: Stuart on December 31, 2011, 07:29:01 AM
Who wants a 7D mk2 and not a FF 5Dmk3 with more dynamic range?
Would a 21Mpixel 7D with more dynamic range from a better sensor and digic 5 be worthwhile.
New is good, but why would i upgrade from a 60D?
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: KeithR on December 31, 2011, 09:17:15 AM
Who wants a 7D mk2 and not a FF 5Dmk3 with more dynamic range?

I love how some people feel qualified to comment on how one non-existent camera will perform in comparison to another non-existent camera.

Don't assume that FF automatically implies better DR - the Nikon D7000/Pentax K5/Sony sensor has already proven that it's a poor assumption, and I expect Canon to continue that trend.
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: AprilForever on December 31, 2011, 10:40:43 AM
Who wants a 7D mk2 and not a FF 5Dmk3 with more dynamic range?

I love how some people feel qualified to comment on how one non-existent camera will perform in comparison to another non-existent camera.

Don't assume that FF automatically implies better DR - the Nikon D7000/Pentax K5/Sony sensor has already proven that it's a poor assumption, and I expect Canon to continue that trend.


True... true...
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: moreorless on December 31, 2011, 12:21:27 PM
The issue that Canon has is that the 1DX is going to be expensive and the 7D is relatively cheap - this leaves them with a huge gap in their product range.

....perhaps a good thing for Canon? with the 1DX and the 7D mk2 as the AF/FPS focused cameras having some space between them in sensor size and performance would stop one canibalising the others sales.

I'd add that the ideal situation for Canon isnt for 1D users to buy the 1DX or the 7D mk2 but rather the 1DX AND the 7D mk2. A cheaper 7D mk2 with a bigger difference in crop factor would make a much more appealing second body purchase for pro's using 1DX's.

The biggest problem with ASPH on a 7D is always going to be lack of wideangle coverage. The 1D userbase might be ok with this but the 7D's primary market will remain amatures looking for a general purpose body.
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: briansquibb on December 31, 2011, 12:34:25 PM

I'd add that the ideal situation for Canon isnt for 1D users to buy the 1DX or the 7D mk2 but rather the 1DX AND the 7D mk2. A cheaper 7D mk2 with a bigger difference in crop factor would make a much more appealing second body purchase for pro's using 1DX's.

The biggest problem with ASPH on a 7D is always going to be lack of wideangle coverage. The 1D userbase might be ok with this but the 7D's primary market will remain amatures looking for a general purpose body.

Er - no - the 7D would not make a good second body for a 1DX shooter

Please get round that what is NOT being proposed is a 7D with APS-H sensor and AF. What is being proposed is another body with the APS-H sensor which would be a logical upgrade for the 7D user - aimed at the sports shooter.

For wide angle the ff is the way to go as the 14mm beats anything that can be had with APS-C
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: Axilrod on December 31, 2011, 12:38:31 PM
Who wants a 7D mk2 and not a FF 5Dmk3 with more dynamic range?
Would a 21Mpixel 7D with more dynamic range from a better sensor and digic 5 be worthwhile.
New is good, but why would i upgrade from a 60D?

The 7D has a better dynamic range than the 5DII.......And you're talking about 2 cameras that we know absolutely nothing about, but I'm guessing there won't be that much of a difference, probably less than 1 stop.
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: briansquibb on December 31, 2011, 01:25:36 PM
Who wants a 7D mk2 and not a FF 5Dmk3 with more dynamic range?
Would a 21Mpixel 7D with more dynamic range from a better sensor and digic 5 be worthwhile.
New is good, but why would i upgrade from a 60D?

The 7D has a better dynamic range than the 5DII.......And you're talking about 2 cameras that we know absolutely nothing about, but I'm guessing there won't be that much of a difference, probably less than 1 stop.

According to DxO dynamic ranges:

7D: 11.7 evs
5DII : 11.9evs
1D4: 12 evs
1Ds3: 12 evs

So the 7D is the bottom of the pile   ::)
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: Lee Jay on December 31, 2011, 03:11:12 PM
If they put a descent AF in with the ability to autofocus up to F8 it would be a great wildlife camera.

If they put in f/8 AF sensors, I'll almost certainly be a customer (for the camera and two pieces of Canon optics).  Otherwise, probably not - at least for a good while.

How much trouble could it be to install one cross f/8 AF point in the center?  I'd be happy with that.
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: AprilForever on December 31, 2011, 05:00:53 PM
Who wants a 7D mk2 and not a FF 5Dmk3 with more dynamic range?
Would a 21Mpixel 7D with more dynamic range from a better sensor and digic 5 be worthwhile.
New is good, but why would i upgrade from a 60D?

The 7D has a better dynamic range than the 5DII.......And you're talking about 2 cameras that we know absolutely nothing about, but I'm guessing there won't be that much of a difference, probably less than 1 stop.

According to DxO dynamic ranges:

7D: 11.7 evs
5DII : 11.9evs
1D4: 12 evs
1Ds3: 12 evs

So the 7D is the bottom of the pile   ::)

Seems like not a lot of distance between each other in the pile... seems also that dynamic range has almost nothing to do with sensor size...

Perhaps, it has more to do with programming and other technology?
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: briansquibb on December 31, 2011, 05:06:27 PM
If they put a descent AF in with the ability to autofocus up to F8 it would be a great wildlife camera.

If they put in f/8 AF sensors, I'll almost certainly be a customer (for the camera and two pieces of Canon optics).  Otherwise, probably not - at least for a good while.

How much trouble could it be to install one cross f/8 AF point in the center?  I'd be happy with that.

Rather like the APS-H and AF in the 1D4 - there is another reason then ....
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: Edwin Herdman on December 31, 2011, 07:34:03 PM
Who wants a 7D mk2 and not a FF 5Dmk3 with more dynamic range?
Who wants a FF 5D Mark III and not a 7D Mark II?

At present it looks like the market can have both.

It's a very simple-minded thing to believe that the announcement of a 7D successor would stop a 5D successor - they've coexisted up to now and neither "steps on the other's toes."  If anything, we're pulling for the 5D to have better AF capability - the 7D is a godsend because it has a superior AF system at an inferior price ;)
Quote
Would a 21Mpixel 7D with more dynamic range from a better sensor and digic 5 be worthwhile.
Worthwhile compared to what?  At what price?  It won't replace the 5D, so you can stop worrying already.
Quote
New is good, but why would i upgrade from a 60D?
Why should we care what would make you upgrade from your 60D?
I'm still not convinced. I'm sure they care just enough to not have their customer's running to another company.
Ditching EF-S support would make that a lot easier for many users.

For me personally, EF-S is almost a non-issue since I have no EF-S lenses - however, messing with the crop factor would be a big problem.
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: briansquibb on December 31, 2011, 07:37:01 PM
Who wants a 7D mk2 and not a FF 5Dmk3 with more dynamic range?
Who wants a FF 5D Mark III and not a 7D Mark II?

At present it looks like the market can have both.

It's a very simple-minded thing to believe that the announcement of a 7D successor would stop a 5D successor - they've coexisted up to now and neither "steps on the other's toes."  If anything, we're pulling for the 5D to have better AF capability - the 7D is a godsend because it has a superior AF system at an inferior price ;)
Quote
Would a 21Mpixel 7D with more dynamic range from a better sensor and digic 5 be worthwhile.
Worthwhile compared to what?  At what price?  It won't replace the 5D, so you can stop worrying already.
Quote
New is good, but why would i upgrade from a 60D?
Why should we care what would make you upgrade from your 60D?
I'm still not convinced. I'm sure they care just enough to not have their customer's running to another company.
Ditching EF-S support would make that a lot easier for many users.

For me personally, EF-S is almost a non-issue since I have no EF-S lenses - however, messing with the crop factor would be a big problem.

+1 [applaud]
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: KeithR on January 01, 2012, 07:44:49 AM
According to DxO dynamic ranges:

7D: 11.7 evs
5DII : 11.9evs
1D4: 12 evs
1Ds3: 12 evs

So the 7D is the bottom of the pile   ::)

If you fall for DxOMark's skewed, entirely-unrepresentative-of-real-world-use way of getting their figures...

You forget the 5D Mk II's problem with banding/pattern noise at high ISO which chews right into it's usable DR.
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: briansquibb on January 01, 2012, 08:45:28 AM
According to DxO dynamic ranges:

7D: 11.7 evs
5DII : 11.9evs
1D4: 12 evs
1Ds3: 12 evs

So the 7D is the bottom of the pile   ::)

If you fall for DxOMark's skewed, entirely-unrepresentative-of-real-world-use way of getting their figures...

You forget the 5D Mk II's problem with banding/pattern noise at high ISO which chews right into it's usable DR.

I have  the 7D, 5DII and the 1D4 and their tests match my observations. Are you seriously going to tell me that the 7D does landscapes better than the 5DII?, are you seriously going to tell me that the 7D does high iso better than the 5DII? Ah the banding factor - happens at an iso which is well past anything the 7D can think of.

If you have better measurements let us see them.
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: AprilForever on January 01, 2012, 11:23:52 PM
According to DxO dynamic ranges:

7D: 11.7 evs
5DII : 11.9evs
1D4: 12 evs
1Ds3: 12 evs

So the 7D is the bottom of the pile   ::)

If you fall for DxOMark's skewed, entirely-unrepresentative-of-real-world-use way of getting their figures...

You forget the 5D Mk II's problem with banding/pattern noise at high ISO which chews right into it's usable DR.

I have  the 7D, 5DII and the 1D4 and their tests match my observations. Are you seriously going to tell me that the 7D does landscapes better than the 5DII?, are you seriously going to tell me that the 7D does high iso better than the 5DII? Ah the banding factor - happens at an iso which is well past anything the 7D can think of.

If you have better measurements let us see them.

I don't think that's what he's saying... he's saying that they have very close dynamic ranges... there are other factors to landscape capture than just dynamic range...

For ultimate landscape image quality, get an old crown graphic and upgrade to 4x5...
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: briansquibb on January 02, 2012, 12:30:28 AM

I don't think that's what he's saying... he's saying that they have very close dynamic ranges... there are other factors to landscape capture than just dynamic range...

For ultimate landscape image quality, get an old crown graphic and upgrade to 4x5...

"The 7D has a better dynamic range than the 5DII" - that is what was said, not much room for misinterpretation there.

The anti APS-H brigade forget that Canon have spent a lot of time and money developing APS-H and producing what is still probably the best all round camera. Why they should they ditch it and focus on the APS-C which is getting harder and harder to develop? Why spend more and more on developing APS-C just to catch up with APS-H?

I understand the 7D is the best of the APS-C but it will get increasingly difficult and expensive to push the boundaries - the larger sensors have a lot more headroom that could be more easier utilised using existing technology.

Yes I would love to see Canon make a digital 6x4 - that would make a fabulous camera using 1DX technology.

However consumer costs get in the way of top cameras - I already know of users that want smaller and lighter cameras, mostly because of their limited strength.

I think you can assume that IQ potential is roughtly proportional to sensor size - I do believe that ff will deliver better IQ than APS-H in the same way that APS-H will deliver better than APS-C.
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: AprilForever on January 02, 2012, 04:25:34 PM
And may the mighty engineers of Kwanon push those boundaries evermore!!!
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: pwp on January 02, 2012, 05:14:25 PM
A perfect way for Canon to alienate 7D owners who have a bag full of EF-S glass would be to ship the 7DII with an APS-H sensor.

They won't do it.

Paul Wright
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: briansquibb on January 02, 2012, 05:41:04 PM
No one is suggesting that the 7D becomes a APS-H. What is being suggested is that APS-H is not dead and will be in the natural upgrade for the 7D - the so called 3D (see the other thread)

This suggestion is based on announcements made in 2010 regarding the development of the APS-H sensor. APS-C is reaching the technology limits where incremental improvements can be made. All the higher mps APS-C sensors are struggling toget noise/IQ under control at higher ISO - ie the Nikon/Sony 24mps APS-C sensor.

There is plenty of headroom for the APS-H sensor still as can be seen in this Canon press release:

http://www.dpreview.com/news/2010/8/24/canon120mpsensor

As for a bagfull of EF-S glass - just imagine a 55-250 on a 7DII - yuk - just 2 decent EF-S lens are being made, so how many 7D owners only have EF-S lens and not L grade lens?

Another article for you to read:

http://photorumors.com/2010/06/09/canon-aps-h-1-3x-mirrorless/

No sign of any reference about APS-H being killed off - sounds like another myth that is being perpetrated
Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: pwp on January 02, 2012, 09:34:34 PM
No one is suggesting that the 7D becomes a APS-H. What is being suggested is that APS-H is not dead and will be in the natural upgrade for the 7D - the so called 3D.
No sign of any reference about APS-H being killed off - sounds like another myth that is being perpetrated

Thanks Brian, as usual you've made some good points.

Personally I don't own an APS-C body or any EF-S glass but can empathize with the handful of xxD and Rebel owners who may feel as though they have painted themselves into a corner with a constrained upgrade path with their 100% EF-S kit.

APS-H? I've valued the format since the original 1D and currently the 1D4. Yep, I do hope it's not being killed off.

Paul Wright

Title: Re: 7D Mark II for Photokina? [CR1]
Post by: AprilForever on January 03, 2012, 08:36:46 AM
No one is suggesting that the 7D becomes a APS-H. What is being suggested is that APS-H is not dead and will be in the natural upgrade for the 7D - the so called 3D.
No sign of any reference about APS-H being killed off - sounds like another myth that is being perpetrated

Thanks Brian, as usual you've made some good points.

Personally I don't own an APS-C body or any EF-S glass but can empathize with the handful of xxD and Rebel owners who may feel as though they have painted themselves into a corner with a constrained upgrade path with their 100% EF-S kit.

APS-H? I've valued the format since the original 1D and currently the 1D4. Yep, I do hope it's not being killed off.

Paul Wright

I don't so much like the 7D because of EF-S... I like the reach. I like that the ASP-C sensor gets me places free, where FF and ASP-H would need a Teleconverter...