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Rumors => EOS Bodies => Topic started by: traveller on January 08, 2012, 06:01:39 AM

Title: Canon Mirrorless in 2012?
Post by: traveller on January 08, 2012, 06:01:39 AM
http://photorumors.com/2012/01/07/canon-promises-mirrorless-camera-system-for-2012/#comments

Originally at DC Watch:

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ja&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdc.watch.impress.co.jp%2Fdocs%2Fnews%2Finterview%2F20120106_502756.html
Title: Re: Canon promises a 'mirrorless' camera in 2012
Post by: ronderick on January 08, 2012, 11:09:47 AM
I love the way they reply... "We'll think in that direction for 2012", which basically puts another big question mark.

I guess the good thing is that the Canon rep affirms that the two priorities remain unchanged: image quality and scaling down bulk/size. So even if they don't invent an EVIL system, this concept will still apply to the future development of EOS cameras. (Hey, aren't they forgetting about the guys who find the 600D too small for their hands?)

Interesting to note that the rep believes while there are a lot of EVIL options out there in the market, the number of users with mirrorless bodies who actually use multiple lens is a minority (I wonder how they arrived at that conclusion). 

One final point the rep made is that there's going to be some point when they will have to consider developing an overall "smaller" system, as well as that downsizing the image sensor is the wave of the future - though there's the emphasis on "somewhen in the future".
Title: Re: Canon promises a 'mirrorless' camera in 2012
Post by: Canon-F1 on January 08, 2012, 06:53:28 PM
Interesting to note that the rep believes while there are a lot of EVIL options out there in the market, the number of users with mirrorless bodies who actually use multiple lens is a minority (I wonder how they arrived at that conclusion). 

i had a E-PL1 and have now a E-PL3 since a few days.

i have only the kit lens and got a pancake from my brother and i will not buy more lenses for the PEN. i prefer to spend my money on EF lenses.

my parents have a E-PL2 and use the 14-42mm kit.
they will never use another lens.
they bought it because i told them the E-PL2 has better IQ then a P&S.
but they don´t buy into the mFT system.

i think mirrorless is for most "normal" customers (who don´t frequent websites like this) just a better P&S camera. such users don´t buy many extra lenses.

 

Title: Re: Canon promises a 'mirrorless' camera in 2012
Post by: Mt Spokane Photography on January 08, 2012, 11:02:28 PM

Interesting to note that the rep believes while there are a lot of EVIL options out there in the market, the number of users with mirrorless bodies who actually use multiple lens is a minority (I wonder how they arrived at that conclusion). 

One final point the rep made is that there's going to be some point when they will have to consider developing an overall "smaller" system, as well as that downsizing the image sensor is the wave of the future - though there's the emphasis on "somewhen in the future".

Presumably, Canon Reps all over the world talk to their retailer customers to see whats selling.  I expect they have a good idea of the number of cameras and lenses sold.

The average consumer wants zoom lenses, while some of the more advanced photographers prefer prime lenses.  It does depend on the target market.  Canon believes their new G1X will capture a big chunk of the market.  If it doesn't, then I'm sure there is a design of a interchangable lens model on the shelf.  Its likely all priced out, and when a go-ahead is given, orders will be placed for long lead items.
Title: Re: Canon promises a 'mirrorless' camera in 2012
Post by: Hillsilly on January 08, 2012, 11:15:52 PM
Some sites have put an interesting slant on this.  Essentially they see it as a plea for customers to delay buying an Olympus, Fuji, Nikon, Sony, Samsung mirrorless until they can see what Canon has in store.  Assuming Canon has something in store.... 

By the way, has anyone noticed the new Fuji X-Pro 1?  I can't wait to see some reviews on that.  It looks like it might be a great, little camera.  This is the sort of thing I hope Canon brings out.

i think mirrorless is for most "normal" customers

That's a good way to think about it.  Sometimes you just want to go out and take some photos and micro four thirds is "good enough".  Plus, mirrorless cameras have some beneficial features.  I took my children to the Brisbane Planetarium and Botanic Gardens yesterday.  What did I take?  An EPL-1 with kit lens and a Minolta 135mm.  The 135mm effectively becomes a really compact, light, image stabilized 270mm f2.8 in micro four thirds talk.  Great for carrying around all day and ideal for photographing slow moving turtles and lizards.  Is the image quality as good as my Canons?  Maybe not.  But with a well exposed photo, I can't see any real problems.   

Given that Canon has such market dominance with P&S cameras with such a wide variety of models, I'm amazed that Canon doesn't have a model that is ideal for people like your parents.  That is, better image quality than a P&S, but with a good fixed / zoom / kit lens for people that wouldn't want to buy any additional lenses or accessories.  Let's see how the G1X does. 
Title: Re: Canon promises a 'mirrorless' camera in 2012
Post by: Woody on January 08, 2012, 11:40:21 PM
Has the Fuji x1-pro been officially announced?

Can't wait to see what Canon has in store... they said they would miniaturize the ENTIRE EF line in that interview...
Title: Re: Canon promises a 'mirrorless' camera in 2012
Post by: Hillsilly on January 08, 2012, 11:50:05 PM
I think the "official" announcement is tomorrow.  But its been listed on Amazon and there are pictures all over the net.  It looks nice, but no reviews yet.

The pre-order price on Amazon of the body was $1,699.95.  There are three compatible lenses, a 35mm f/1.4 ($499), an 18mm f/2.0 ($499) and a 60mm macro ($599).
Title: Re: Canon promises a 'mirrorless' camera in 2012
Post by: gmrza on January 09, 2012, 02:18:02 AM
Some sites have put an interesting slant on this.  Essentially they see it as a plea for customers to delay buying an Olympus, Fuji, Nikon, Sony, Samsung mirrorless until they can see what Canon has in store.  Assuming Canon has something in store.... 

By the way, has anyone noticed the new Fuji X-Pro 1?  I can't wait to see some reviews on that.  It looks like it might be a great, little camera.  This is the sort of thing I hope Canon brings out.

The X-Pro 1 certainly looks like an interesting system.  The challenge is that, before I commit to another system, I want to know what the system consists of, including lenses and other accessories like flashes.  If I go for the Fuji, then I am committing to a totally different flash system as well as a different lens system.  If Canon were to do a mirrorless system, presumably it would use E-TTL Speedlites, which would mean that I would be able to use my existing Speedlites, rather than having to purchase new flashes.  (Admittedly, I would be able to use my Canon Speedlites in manual mode, but I would still need at least one new flash unit for on-camera use.)

I, for one, will still be waiting a little while for the dust to settle.  I would like for Canon to announce a mirrorless system, but I still don't know if it makes commercial sense for Canon - precisely for the reason that most purchasers of EVIL systems never make use of the fact that the system allows lenses to be interchanged.
Title: Re: Canon promises a 'mirrorless' camera in 2012
Post by: bycostello on January 09, 2012, 04:30:43 AM
yay.. although i was all set to buy a sony nex7 when released, will hang on now....
Title: Re: Canon promises a 'mirrorless' camera in 2012
Post by: gmrza on January 09, 2012, 06:42:13 AM
yay.. although i was all set to buy a sony nex7 when released, will hang on now....

I have to agree with that - I will wait for the dust to settle before jumping in and committing to a system.  If only a Leica M9 weren't so expensive...  :'(
Title: Re: Canon promises a 'mirrorless' camera in 2012
Post by: Canon-F1 on January 09, 2012, 09:14:02 AM
Given that Canon has such market dominance with P&S cameras with such a wide variety of models, I'm amazed that Canon doesn't have a model that is ideal for people like your parents.

oh canon has something that would be "good enough".
the G12 would be good enough for my parents.

but in fact the G12 cost more then the E-PL2 here (only a few bucks but nevertheless).
and i saw no reason to recommend a G12 to my parents out of brand loyality. ;)
not as long as the E-PL2 has better image quality and is cheaper.  ;)

ps: i think canon HAS to use bigger sensors in P&S cameras in the future.
cheap P&S cameras with tiny sensors will become obsolet in my opinion.
mobile phone cameras getting better and will cover this market.
why should a school girl or mother carry another P&S camera when mobile phones can make pictures they are satisfied with??

my brother in law and my sister using the iphone for all pictures of their daughter.
i bought them a cheap fuji camera (im the photo guy in our family :) ) but they don´t use it.
because they don´t carry the camera all day.. but they do have the iphones at hand 7/24.
Title: Re: Canon promises a 'mirrorless' camera in 2012
Post by: max on January 09, 2012, 09:51:55 AM
Canon just released the G1X with a sensor bigger than the micro 4/3, looks awesome!
Title: Re: Canon promises a 'mirrorless' camera in 2012
Post by: Meh on January 09, 2012, 09:56:28 AM
Canon just released the G1X with a sensor bigger than the micro 4/3, looks awesome!

Full specs are up on http://usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/products/cameras/digital_cameras/powershot_g1_x
Title: Canon Mirrorless in 2012?
Post by: Canon Rumors on January 09, 2012, 10:15:03 AM
A Translation of a Japanese Interview “Canon has been forced to change their plan for 2011 because of the earthquake on the 11th March 2011 in Japan and floods in Thailand, but they are going to be back to the normal operation in 2012.”

Summary of interview with Masaya Maeda, Managing Director and Chief Executive of the Image Communication Products Operation at Canon Inc.

He stated that they are planning to release mirrorless compact system cameras in 2012.

Concept of Canon’s mirrorless system

C300 movie cameras

 Source: [NL] via [DCW]

 

Title: Re: Canon promises a 'mirrorless' camera in 2012
Post by: aj1575 on January 09, 2012, 10:19:50 AM
I'm not sure if it is that what the canon guy meant.
I don't think we will see a Canon EVIL-Camera in 2012. And I also think that some of the systems that are on the market now, won't be developed any further in 5 years; there are just too many at the moment. And then there are some problems that can't be solved with todays approach by most manufacturers.

Camera-size means also includes lens size. So for the image quality (and a shallow depth of field) a big sensor is needed, which means big lenses. Just look at a NEX with a telephoto lens, the size of the body is becoming less important, because it's the lens that makes up the bulk. Then there is the handling issue for serious work with a camera. I think most people would get a cramp in their hands, if they have to cover a sport event for 2 hours with a NEX+telephoto-lens.
On the other hand, these systems are nice to go hiking; just take it with you with a 35mm or someting like that, and you have a powerfull little camera. But for that I could also take a Fujifilm X100 with me, or a future Canon G-series.
If we go down in the sensor size, the image quality decreases, and it will do so even with better sensors in the future. Diffraction will remain a problem with small sensors. The DOF-problem could be solved with software (like other shortcomings of the lenses, like it is done more and more), but I'm note sure if this will be accepted by all users.

Downsizing is not easy in the camerabusiness. I think there is a market for small sensor EVIL-Systems, but this market is quite crowded already (if we consider 4/3 as small). People looking for image quality will at least buy a 4/3 sensor-camera, and I think this won't change much (as mentioned diffraction and DOF won't improve...). People who do not care that much about IQ, will buy a smaller camera, be it an ILC or a fixed lens camera. But I see the advantage of a fixed lens camera, because these people do generally not like to think about focal length, and which lens to take with them.
I think there is room for an APS-C or even FF EVIL-camera in the rangefinder style. SONY is close to this, but the ergonomics of the NEX sucks. The camera should offer very good IQ, and low light capabilities. Some nice primes, and a quality standard-zoom would be nice; something like the soon to be announed Fujifilm Pro X1, just a bit cheaper.

If I were Canon, I would take some time to find the ideal sensor-size for a future EVIL-System. It is not an easy task...
Title: Re: Canon promises a 'mirrorless' camera in 2012
Post by: aj1575 on January 09, 2012, 10:27:31 AM
Canon just released the G1X with a sensor bigger than the micro 4/3, looks awesome!

Full specs are up on http://usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/products/cameras/digital_cameras/powershot_g1_x

Yes, it really is awesome. The specs of this camera just look amazing. Nice job from Canon.

(the area of the sensor in the G1X is 6 times 6 times bigger than the one in the G12....)
Title: Re: Canon promises a 'mirrorless' camera in 2012
Post by: bvukich on January 09, 2012, 10:39:17 AM
Canon just released the G1X with a sensor bigger than the micro 4/3, looks awesome!

Full specs are up on http://usa.canon.com/cusa/consumer/products/cameras/digital_cameras/powershot_g1_x

Yes, it really is awesome. The specs of this camera just look amazing. Nice job from Canon.

(the area of the sensor in the G1X is 6 times 6 times bigger than the one in the G12....)

And twice the size of the Nikon 1 series.
Title: Re: Canon Mirrorless in 2012?
Post by: alipaulphotography on January 09, 2012, 10:50:30 AM
If they could fit the sensor of the 5D original in a smaller, mirrorless body with a miniaturised 50mm f/1.4 - I would pay good money for that.

Essentially the M9 but cheaper...
Title: Re: Canon Mirrorless in 2012?
Post by: dtameling on January 09, 2012, 11:34:41 AM
I see this new sensor format in the G1 X as a test to see how the camera/sensor stacks up against M4/3 offerings. If it does well (as good or better IQ), I think we might see the same sensor in EVIL cameras late in 2012.

If the sensor is great, I can live with the size of it as long as it's in a camera which is targeted at competing with the NEX models AND uses the EF mount. I'd GLADLY put my current 50mm f/1.4 on the front of a NEX size EVIL style camera and shelve my 50D backup body. Add HD video and an articulated screen and I don't think the 50D would have any argument to remain in my stable. The sensor is big enough that current EF-S lenses are a fair fit. They might be physically larger than the 4/3 and NEX lenses but they also come much faster. A Tamron 17-50mm f/2.8 is WAY better than any current NEX zoom lens and it's not huge or super heavy.

I have no interest in a new lens mount system even if it's from Canon. I might as well buy a NEX now and stop waiting...there's no point in sticking with Canon if my existing lenses don't fit. Make the new system fit the old lenses and then make new EF-? lenses specifically for the small body size instead of introducing something completely new and unique like Nikon did...alienating their pro users.
Title: Re: Canon Mirrorless in 2012?
Post by: alipaulphotography on January 09, 2012, 12:48:44 PM
With no mirror there is the potential for those tiny pancake lenses. I'd certainly welcome a wide aperture 50mm equivalent.
Title: Re: Canon Mirrorless in 2012?
Post by: friedmud on January 09, 2012, 01:25:11 PM
I guess I'm weird... but for me these super small interchangeable lens bodies just don't do it for me.  For me there are basically two types of photography:

1. Artistic: This is where I want my bigass DSLR with DoF and tons of lens choices.

2. "Moment Capture": This is basically when I just want to record an even that happened with decent IQ.

Carrying around a bag of lenses (even if they are smaller than my DSLR lenses) for "Moment Capture" just doesn't work out.  I'd rather just use my iPhone 4S (which has decent IQ for a phone) or maybe purchase a high end P&S and just use the lens that's on it.

I _highly_ suspect that 90% of the people buying cameras like the Nikon 1 _never_ buy another lens for it (and possibly never even know that they could).

I think it's a pretty big mistake to try to market a tiny body interchangeable lens system to pros....

But I guess we'll see what the market thinks about this whole thing.  It's obvious that Canon seems to agree with me so far (and the G1 X reaffirms that).

Also... I'm that weird guy that carries his DSLR with him EVERYWHERE.  I hike up mountains with all my lenses and a huge tripod... I go to dinner at restaurants with my 7D and 17-55 f/2.8 slung over my shoulder... my DSLR rides shotgun with me to work and back.... I have a dedicated skiing photography bag replete with hand-warmer pockets to keep my gear warm that I always ski with....

I _never_ want to miss that perfect moment.... and if all I was carrying was some tiny sensor PoS when it happened I would be pissed!

So maybe I'm not the best person to judge ;-)
Title: Re: Canon Mirrorless in 2012?
Post by: CarebbianTraveler on January 09, 2012, 01:30:21 PM
If they could fit the sensor of the 5D original in a smaller, mirrorless body with a miniaturised 50mm f/1.4 - I would pay good money for that.

Essentially the M9 but cheaper...

I'd prefer the 1DX's sensor ;-)
But now that they have announced a compact with such a large sensor, a EVIL will either be FF or never come.
Title: Re: Canon Mirrorless in 2012?
Post by: ecka on January 09, 2012, 02:02:06 PM
If they could fit the sensor of the 5D original in a smaller, mirrorless body with a miniaturised 50mm f/1.4 - I would pay good money for that.

Essentially the M9 but cheaper...

I'd prefer the 1DX's sensor ;-)
But now that they have announced a compact with such a large sensor, a EVIL will either be FF or never come.
Me too ;)
Title: Re: Canon Mirrorless in 2012?
Post by: jbooba on January 09, 2012, 02:34:55 PM
hey guys,
 reuters has a more detailed info on the interview: http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/05/idUSL3E7I50RX20110705

JB
Title: Re: Canon Mirrorless in 2012?
Post by: LetTheRightLensIn on January 09, 2012, 02:52:35 PM
I guess I'm weird... but for me these super small interchangeable lens bodies just don't do it for me.  For me there are basically two types of photography:

1. Artistic: This is where I want my bigass DSLR with DoF and tons of lens choices.

2. "Moment Capture": This is basically when I just want to record an even that happened with decent IQ.

Carrying around a bag of lenses (even if they are smaller than my DSLR lenses) for "Moment Capture" just doesn't work out.  I'd rather just use my iPhone 4S (which has decent IQ for a phone) or maybe purchase a high end P&S and just use the lens that's on it.

I _highly_ suspect that 90% of the people buying cameras like the Nikon 1 _never_ buy another lens for it (and possibly never even know that they could).

I think it's a pretty big mistake to try to market a tiny body interchangeable lens system to pros....

But I guess we'll see what the market thinks about this whole thing.  It's obvious that Canon seems to agree with me so far (and the G1 X reaffirms that).

Also... I'm that weird guy that carries his DSLR with him EVERYWHERE.  I hike up mountains with all my lenses and a huge tripod... I go to dinner at restaurants with my 7D and 17-55 f/2.8 slung over my shoulder... my DSLR rides shotgun with me to work and back.... I have a dedicated skiing photography bag replete with hand-warmer pockets to keep my gear warm that I always ski with....

I _never_ want to miss that perfect moment.... and if all I was carrying was some tiny sensor PoS when it happened I would be pissed!

So maybe I'm not the best person to judge ;-)

I tend to agree. I mostly try to use a DSLR whenever I can, but when it's not suited then I don't want some half-way between thing and messing with lenses, just give me an iphone cam or little P&S. I mean either you are serious enough about the shots to bother carrying this and that or you are not.

Which is not to say that EF mount and EOS line ouldn't get some mirrorless bodies in the line.
Title: Re: Canon Mirrorless in 2012?
Post by: Canon-F1 on January 09, 2012, 03:58:23 PM
you can´t carry a DSLR with you to all places.. simply because you won´t be allowed to shoot with a DSLR.
but i never had problems taking my little PEN with me.

i will never buy a P&S camera again.
mFT is not that much bigger but IQ is much better.
i hate that smearing the agressiv noise reduction creates with P&S cameras.

i don´t need FF or APS-C in such a camera. lenses are too big then.
mFT is the right compromise for my needs.

if the next G1 X MK2 goes from 24mm to 150mm i will buy it.
f2 would be fantastic.  ;D

for now im happy with my PEN.

 
Title: Re: Canon Mirrorless in 2012?
Post by: alipaulphotography on January 09, 2012, 03:59:58 PM
I guess I'm weird... but for me these super small interchangeable lens bodies just don't do it for me.  For me there are basically two types of photography:

1. Artistic: This is where I want my bigass DSLR with DoF and tons of lens choices.

2. "Moment Capture": This is basically when I just want to record an even that happened with decent IQ.

Carrying around a bag of lenses (even if they are smaller than my DSLR lenses) for "Moment Capture" just doesn't work out.  I'd rather just use my iPhone 4S (which has decent IQ for a phone) or maybe purchase a high end P&S and just use the lens that's on it.

I _highly_ suspect that 90% of the people buying cameras like the Nikon 1 _never_ buy another lens for it (and possibly never even know that they could).

I think it's a pretty big mistake to try to market a tiny body interchangeable lens system to pros....

But I guess we'll see what the market thinks about this whole thing.  It's obvious that Canon seems to agree with me so far (and the G1 X reaffirms that).

Also... I'm that weird guy that carries his DSLR with him EVERYWHERE.  I hike up mountains with all my lenses and a huge tripod... I go to dinner at restaurants with my 7D and 17-55 f/2.8 slung over my shoulder... my DSLR rides shotgun with me to work and back.... I have a dedicated skiing photography bag replete with hand-warmer pockets to keep my gear warm that I always ski with....

I _never_ want to miss that perfect moment.... and if all I was carrying was some tiny sensor PoS when it happened I would be pissed!

So maybe I'm not the best person to judge ;-)

I tend to agree. I mostly try to use a DSLR whenever I can, but when it's not suited then I don't want some half-way between thing and messing with lenses, just give me an iphone cam or little P&S. I mean either you are serious enough about the shots to bother carrying this and that or you are not.

Which is not to say that EF mount and EOS line ouldn't get some mirrorless bodies in the line.

So basically you don't want to sacrifice image quality, so you lug round a DSLR?

Well imagine a full frame mirrorless compact with small wide aperture prime lenses like a 50mm f/1.4. Awesome image quality in an almost pocket sized body - Essentially an M9 alternative.

You wouldn't have to decide between capturing the moment or image quality as you'd have both.

That is what I was suggesting.
Title: Re: Canon Mirrorless in 2012?
Post by: wickidwombat on January 09, 2012, 05:03:19 PM
if they do a mirrorless to compete with the nexes aqnd so on i hope they make an EF/ EFs adaptor for it so we can us our existing glass with it, just from the perspective of having a very small form factor crop body in the bag you can pop onto a 300 or 400 lens and shoot longer, of course it would have to have decent AF which from what i've heard is where all these mirrorless option are a bit of a let down
Title: Re: Canon Mirrorless in 2012?
Post by: LetTheRightLensIn on January 09, 2012, 06:29:03 PM
I guess I'm weird... but for me these super small interchangeable lens bodies just don't do it for me.  For me there are basically two types of photography:

1. Artistic: This is where I want my bigass DSLR with DoF and tons of lens choices.

2. "Moment Capture": This is basically when I just want to record an even that happened with decent IQ.

Carrying around a bag of lenses (even if they are smaller than my DSLR lenses) for "Moment Capture" just doesn't work out.  I'd rather just use my iPhone 4S (which has decent IQ for a phone) or maybe purchase a high end P&S and just use the lens that's on it.

I _highly_ suspect that 90% of the people buying cameras like the Nikon 1 _never_ buy another lens for it (and possibly never even know that they could).

I think it's a pretty big mistake to try to market a tiny body interchangeable lens system to pros....

But I guess we'll see what the market thinks about this whole thing.  It's obvious that Canon seems to agree with me so far (and the G1 X reaffirms that).

Also... I'm that weird guy that carries his DSLR with him EVERYWHERE.  I hike up mountains with all my lenses and a huge tripod... I go to dinner at restaurants with my 7D and 17-55 f/2.8 slung over my shoulder... my DSLR rides shotgun with me to work and back.... I have a dedicated skiing photography bag replete with hand-warmer pockets to keep my gear warm that I always ski with....

I _never_ want to miss that perfect moment.... and if all I was carrying was some tiny sensor PoS when it happened I would be pissed!

So maybe I'm not the best person to judge ;-)

I tend to agree. I mostly try to use a DSLR whenever I can, but when it's not suited then I don't want some half-way between thing and messing with lenses, just give me an iphone cam or little P&S. I mean either you are serious enough about the shots to bother carrying this and that or you are not.

Which is not to say that EF mount and EOS line ouldn't get some mirrorless bodies in the line.

So basically you don't want to sacrifice image quality, so you lug round a DSLR?

Well imagine a full frame mirrorless compact with small wide aperture prime lenses like a 50mm f/1.4. Awesome image quality in an almost pocket sized body - Essentially an M9 alternative.

You wouldn't have to decide between capturing the moment or image quality as you'd have both.

That is what I was suggesting.

Yes, I either want everything my EOS camera and array of lenses brings me or a P&S/iphone/etc. are good enough and I want something as tiny as possible. That's how I shoot.
Title: Re: Canon Mirrorless in 2012?
Post by: Doodah on January 09, 2012, 09:10:43 PM
Well imagine a full frame mirrorless compact with small wide aperture prime lenses like a 50mm f/1.4. Awesome image quality in an almost pocket sized body - Essentially an M9 alternative.

That is my desire too. A FF mirrorless camera. Without the expensive pentaprism, the price will probably drop to that of 7D/D300s. Well worth it. :)
Title: Re: Canon Mirrorless in 2012?
Post by: ronderick on January 09, 2012, 09:40:37 PM
I guess if Canon does come out with a EVIL body, people would expect it to be FF, good AF, small size, and takes advantage of the existing EF system lenses.

Whether this can be accomplished in the near future or not, that's a different story.

At least don't come up with something as small as Nikon 1's sensor... *shiver*
Title: Re: Canon Mirrorless in 2012?
Post by: aj1575 on January 10, 2012, 02:04:49 AM
I think it's a pretty big mistake to try to market a tiny body interchangeable lens system to pros....

But I guess we'll see what the market thinks about this whole thing.  It's obvious that Canon seems to agree with me so far (and the G1 X reaffirms that).
I completly agree. The Nikon 1 is not for pros, or even for ambitious amateurs; they may only use it as a second or even third camera to play arround a little bit, a toy. But even then there are better "toys" out there like the Fuji X100.

I think that Canon will introduce an EVIL system in the future, simply because EVIL is the future. There are two big drawbacks at the moment; one is autofocus speed, and the other is the electronic viewfinder. The first is alreday pretty good in an EVIL, while the second one still sucks compared to a pentaprism. But this will change in the future. So the days of the mirror are numbered.

If I were Canon I would develop an APS-C or even FF compatible EVIL system, that coexists with EOS / EF(-S) in the beginning, but will replace it in the future. For the normal consumer I would go with fixed lens systems like the G1X, or for the more ambitous one with an entry-level EVIL camera with the same mount as for the pros (like it has been in the past with analog SLR).
Title: Re: Canon Mirrorless in 2012?
Post by: kapanak on January 10, 2012, 04:02:46 AM
I think it's a pretty big mistake to try to market a tiny body interchangeable lens system to pros....

But I guess we'll see what the market thinks about this whole thing.  It's obvious that Canon seems to agree with me so far (and the G1 X reaffirms that).
I completly agree. The Nikon 1 is not for pros, or even for ambitious amateurs; they may only use it as a second or even third camera to play arround a little bit, a toy. But even then there are better "toys" out there like the Fuji X100.

I think that Canon will introduce an EVIL system in the future, simply because EVIL is the future. There are two big drawbacks at the moment; one is autofocus speed, and the other is the electronic viewfinder. The first is alreday pretty good in an EVIL, while the second one still sucks compared to a pentaprism. But this will change in the future. So the days of the mirror are numbered.

If I were Canon I would develop an APS-C or even FF compatible EVIL system, that coexists with EOS / EF(-S) in the beginning, but will replace it in the future. For the normal consumer I would go with fixed lens systems like the G1X, or for the more ambitous one with an entry-level EVIL camera with the same mount as for the pros (like it has been in the past with analog SLR).

I have the EVF for the NEX-5N, and although very high resolution and quite impressive, especially with scene preview and live histogram, it still does not have the same natural feeling of an OVF. I don't think mirrorless cameras are meant to replace DSLRs ... mirrored and mirrorless cameras have co-existed since the beginning. They will continue to address different needs in different audiences in the market, and will complement each other in a professional's photography kit.
Title: Re: Canon Mirrorless in 2012?
Post by: moreorless on January 10, 2012, 07:13:33 AM
I have the EVF for the NEX-5N, and although very high resolution and quite impressive, especially with scene preview and live histogram, it still does not have the same natural feeling of an OVF. I don't think mirrorless cameras are meant to replace DSLRs ... mirrored and mirrorless cameras have co-existed since the beginning. They will continue to address different needs in different audiences in the market, and will complement each other in a professional's photography kit.

A DSLR could of course also potentially have a hyrid OVF/EVF aswell to get the advantages from the latter, that and having to balance large zoom lenses will IMHO keep them alive although I do think systems like this new Fuji will take a good deal of the hi end market.
Title: Re: Canon promises a 'mirrorless' camera in 2012
Post by: c.d.embrey on January 11, 2012, 01:43:02 AM


Camera-size means also includes lens size. So for the image quality (and a shallow depth of field) a big sensor is needed, which means big lenses.


I shoot advertising -- I couldn't care less about paper thin DOF. Most of what I do is shot between f5.6 and f16. YMMV.


Quote
Just look at a NEX with a telephoto lens, the size of the body is becoming less important, because it's the lens that makes up the bulk. Then there is the handling issue for serious work with a camera. I think most people would get a cramp in their hands, if they have to cover a sport event for 2 hours with a NEX+telephoto-lens.

Always use the right tool or the job. I don't think many people will be covering the Super Bowl with a Sony NEX.

Quote
On the other hand, these systems are nice to go hiking ...

They are also great if you are holding a camera for 8 hours during a commercial shoot. Some Pros are talking about dumping their DSLRs for mirrorless. My primary lenses are 24mm and 85mm primes. A NEX 7 and a 24mm f1.8 Zeiss weight about 20 Oz total.

Quote
People who do not care that much about IQ, will buy a smaller camera ...


People who don't care will use their phones. The P&S market is dying. And not many people will "step up" from Smart Phones to real cameras.

Quote
I think there is room for an APS-C or even FF EVIL-camera in the rangefinder style. SONY is close to this, but the ergonomics of the NEX sucks.

Since I got my NEX 5n my Canon DSLRs don't get much use. When I pick-up a NEX 7 I doubt they will get any use.

Quote
If I were Canon, I would take some time to find the ideal sensor-size for a future EVIL-System. It is not an easy task...

APS-C is the perfect size. Canon needs to get their act together and make a small and light Pro quality camera. It doesn't need to be mirrorless, a Digital EOS IX (an APS film camer from the 1990s) would be great with a EF 85mm f1.8. or a new 22mm f1.8 EF-S.
Title: Re: Canon promises a 'mirrorless' camera in 2012
Post by: briansquibb on January 11, 2012, 04:07:04 AM

APS-C is the perfect size. Canon needs to get their act together and make a small and light Pro quality camera. It doesn't need to be mirrorless, a Digital EOS IX (an APS film camer from the 1990s) would be great with a EF 85mm f1.8. or a new 22mm f1.8 EF-S.

I have a EOS IX - I bought it as a travel camera. Still works OK. I have a 85 f/1.8 as well it would be very interesting combination. I suspect the APS quality would be disappointing now though  :D I did run a cassette through using a 55-200 EF - quality was acceptable. Perhaps I should put 400 f/2.8 IS on it  ;D ;D ;D 8)

Title: Re: Canon Mirrorless in 2012?
Post by: kapanak on January 11, 2012, 04:13:09 AM
I have the EVF for the NEX-5N, and although very high resolution and quite impressive, especially with scene preview and live histogram, it still does not have the same natural feeling of an OVF. I don't think mirrorless cameras are meant to replace DSLRs ... mirrored and mirrorless cameras have co-existed since the beginning. They will continue to address different needs in different audiences in the market, and will complement each other in a professional's photography kit.

A DSLR could of course also potentially have a hyrid OVF/EVF aswell to get the advantages from the latter, that and having to balance large zoom lenses will IMHO keep them alive although I do think systems like this new Fuji will take a good deal of the hi end market.


That's the thing. A DSLR, by definition, cannot have an electronic viewfinder at the same time as an optical one. It may have a second, smaller sensor for the EVF component, but we shall not get into that. Of course, OVFs have electronic parts embedded, but it is not a preview of what the sensor is seeing, because of the mirror. It is all about that mirror. Sony has their A65/77, but that lacks an OVF ...
Title: Re: Canon promises a 'mirrorless' camera in 2012
Post by: briansquibb on January 11, 2012, 05:46:26 AM

APS-C is the perfect size. Canon needs to get their act together and make a small and light Pro quality camera. It doesn't need to be mirrorless, a Digital EOS IX (an APS film camer from the 1990s) would be great with a EF 85mm f1.8. or a new 22mm f1.8 EF-S.

Here you are - EOS IX + 85 f/1.8

Title: Re: Canon promises a 'mirrorless' camera in 2012
Post by: alipaulphotography on January 11, 2012, 06:21:30 AM

APS-C is the perfect size. Canon needs to get their act together and make a small and light Pro quality camera. It doesn't need to be mirrorless, a Digital EOS IX (an APS film camer from the 1990s) would be great with a EF 85mm f1.8. or a new 22mm f1.8 EF-S.

Here you are - EOS IX + 85 f/1.8

I have never seen a camera like that before! That's amazing! Thanks for sharing.

Without a mirror - lenses can be so much smaller though which would be a big help.

My top priority in a camera is image quality of course - So I will not sacrifice sensor size, ISO performance or lens quality/speed.

My 2nd is size - Smaller, lighter the better.

That gap is slowly closing. Leica have shown it is very possible - shame they are just so darn expensive!

I look forward to the Fuji reviews - but a small canon large sensor camera would be great for flash compatibility.
Title: Re: Canon promises a 'mirrorless' camera in 2012
Post by: c.d.embrey on January 11, 2012, 01:57:24 PM

APS-C is the perfect size. Canon needs to get their act together and make a small and light Pro quality camera. It doesn't need to be mirrorless, a Digital EOS IX (an APS film camer from the 1990s) would be great with a EF 85mm f1.8. or a new 22mm f1.8 EF-S.

Here you are - EOS IX + 85 f/1.8

Thanks, briansquibb. I'd buy two. if Canon made a Digital EOS IX!

A Digital EOS IX (EOS XD?) with a 7D/7DmkII sensor would be a BIG seller, IMHO. Lots of great EF-S and EF lenses could be used with a Digital EOS IX.

BTW Nikon made the Pronea APS film camera with a F-mount.
Title: Re: Canon Mirrorless in 2012?
Post by: ronderick on January 12, 2012, 01:29:53 AM
Interesting camera, I must say.  :o

It would be quite a breakthrough if they could reproduce this model for the XXXD, though I'm not sure how that would work while still retaining the mirror and the OVF.
Title: Re: Canon Mirrorless in 2012?
Post by: briansquibb on January 12, 2012, 01:49:31 AM
Interesting camera, I must say.  :o

It would be quite a breakthrough if they could reproduce this model for the XXXD, though I'm not sure how that would work while still retaining the mirror and the OVF.

Why not? - this has a mirror. The camera body is VERY light and small - about 4/3 size
Title: Re: Canon Mirrorless in 2012?
Post by: Rocky on January 12, 2012, 08:44:31 PM
Interesting camera, I must say.  :o

It would be quite a breakthrough if they could reproduce this model for the XXXD, though I'm not sure how that would work while still retaining the mirror and the OVF.

Why not? - this has a mirror. The camera body is VERY light and small - about 4/3 size
132 x 80 x 59 mm, is the official size of the  EOS IX. 128.8 x 97.5 x 61.9mm is for T1i . The EOS IX is actually longer than the T1i. The T1i is thicker due to the much bigger grip. The difference in height is substancial due to the Prisum on the T1i.   reference: Canon museum.
Title: Re: Canon Mirrorless in 2012?
Post by: briansquibb on January 13, 2012, 05:07:28 AM
This is the picture you all wanted to see  8) 8) 8)

Title: Re: Canon Mirrorless in 2012?
Post by: briansquibb on January 13, 2012, 05:37:14 AM

132 x 80 x 59 mm, is the official size of the  EOS IX. 128.8 x 97.5 x 61.9mm is for T1i . The EOS IX is actually longer than the T1i. The T1i is thicker due to the much bigger grip. The difference in height is substancial due to the Prisum on the T1i.   reference: Canon museum.

Just for comparison - GF1 is 119 mm x 71 mm x 36.3 mm - length and width about the same. Quite a bit thinner.
Title: Re: Canon Mirrorless in 2012?
Post by: wickidwombat on January 13, 2012, 05:41:41 AM
This is the picture you all wanted to see  8) 8) 8)
hahahahaha that is hillarious :D it makes the lens look enormous
Title: Re: Canon Mirrorless in 2012?
Post by: briansquibb on January 13, 2012, 05:47:47 AM
This is the picture you all wanted to see  8) 8) 8)
hahahahaha that is hillarious :D it makes the lens look enormous

There is film in it and if the sun comes out I will run the roll through it - makes me giggle at the thought of an APS camera with a 400 f/2.8 + 1.4 ......  ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: Canon Mirrorless in 2012?
Post by: alipaulphotography on January 13, 2012, 06:52:07 AM
That is hilarious! But I would kill for a digital version! How the hell does the mirror even fit?!
Title: Re: Canon Mirrorless in 2012?
Post by: Rocky on January 13, 2012, 12:14:56 PM
That is hilarious! But I would kill for a digital version! How the hell does the mirror even fit?!
If you look at the camera closely, the mirror box is the "round tube" between the lens and the flat part of the body. It is an APS camera. therefore a smaller mirror is used.
Title: Re: Canon Mirrorless in 2012?
Post by: briansquibb on January 13, 2012, 07:32:44 PM
This is the picture you all wanted to see  8) 8) 8)

First picture is from the EOS IX with the 400/f2.8 + 1.4 @5.6, kodak APS asa 200
Second picture is from the same place using the 1Ds3, iso 800. f/5.6
Title: Re: Canon Mirrorless in 2012?
Post by: moreorless on January 14, 2012, 01:46:23 AM
That's the thing. A DSLR, by definition, cannot have an electronic viewfinder at the same time as an optical one. It may have a second, smaller sensor for the EVF component, but we shall not get into that. Of course, OVFs have electronic parts embedded, but it is not a preview of what the sensor is seeing, because of the mirror. It is all about that mirror. Sony has their A65/77, but that lacks an OVF ...

The mirror could be flipped up when the EVF is in use though, obviously that means no contrast detect AF but then again the same would be true for any mirrorless camera.

We talk about improved EVF's but really there never going to provide the same thing as an OVF just as even the largest most hi tech TV is still obviously a TV.
Title: Re: Canon Mirrorless in 2012?
Post by: kapanak on January 14, 2012, 03:06:03 AM
That's the thing. A DSLR, by definition, cannot have an electronic viewfinder at the same time as an optical one. It may have a second, smaller sensor for the EVF component, but we shall not get into that. Of course, OVFs have electronic parts embedded, but it is not a preview of what the sensor is seeing, because of the mirror. It is all about that mirror. Sony has their A65/77, but that lacks an OVF ...

The mirror could be flipped up when the EVF is in use though, obviously that means no contrast detect AF but then again the same would be true for any mirrorless camera.

We talk about improved EVF's but really there never going to provide the same thing as an OVF just as even the largest most hi tech TV is still obviously a TV.

I believe you meant "no phase detect AF", which is what the addition of the AF chip with the mirror offers.
If we think of the mirror as locked for the EVF, the LCD on the back of a DSLR is technically an EVF during Live View. Also, some Mirrorless cameras offer Phase detect by using pixels on the sensor itself dedicated to the job, like the Nikon 1 series.

I still cannot see why people advocate for one side or the other. The two (DSLR and Rangefinder-style) form factors have been around for a very long time, and have co-existed peacefully. No reason to kill one in favour of the other now.
Title: Re: Canon Mirrorless in 2012?
Post by: moreorless on January 14, 2012, 12:09:12 PM
I believe you meant "no phase detect AF", which is what the addition of the AF chip with the mirror offers.
If we think of the mirror as locked for the EVF, the LCD on the back of a DSLR is technically an EVF during Live View. Also, some Mirrorless cameras offer Phase detect by using pixels on the sensor itself dedicated to the job, like the Nikon 1 series.

I still cannot see why people advocate for one side or the other. The two (DSLR and Rangefinder-style) form factors have been around for a very long time, and have co-existed peacefully. No reason to kill one in favour of the other now.

Yeah sorry phase rather than contrast.

It just seems to me that theres little need to lose weight with DSLR's that are going to be used with a large zoom lens anyway so why give up an OVF when it shouldnt stop you having the advanatges of an EVF aswell.

My guess would be that in the coming years the high end market will be divided between DSLR's based around zooms and rangefinder similar to this new Fuji based around primes.
Title: Re: Canon Mirrorless in 2012?
Post by: Rocky on January 14, 2012, 01:00:42 PM
We can lose wight on the DSLR by using penta mirror (used in Rebel series) instead of penta prism (used in all XXD and 1Ds). However, we will give up a little bit of brightness in th view finder and potentailly with less relibility.
Title: Re: Canon Mirrorless in 2012?
Post by: elflord on January 14, 2012, 01:13:32 PM

Yeah sorry phase rather than contrast.

It just seems to me that theres little need to lose weight with DSLR's that are going to be used with a large zoom lens anyway so why give up an OVF when it shouldnt stop you having the advanatges of an EVF aswell.

My guess would be that in the coming years the high end market will be divided between DSLR's based around zooms and rangefinder similar to this new Fuji based around primes.

I think the distinction is more big versus small lenses than zoom versus prime. Wide angle zooms make plenty of sense for mirrorless.

What is less practical are fast telephoto lenses (zoom or prime) -- these simply require a lot of glass because of the absolute size of the aperture. It's much easier to make a small 20mm f/1.7 or even a 45mm f/1.8 than it is a 135mm f/2 or a 70-200mm f/4.
Title: Re: Canon Mirrorless in 2012?
Post by: Fotofanten on January 21, 2012, 03:15:38 PM
I hope they stray very little from the original Canonet design. A full frame sensor and a fixed 40mm f/1.7 lens would be perfect. Alternately, a 1,5x crop sensor and a 35mm f/1.4 lens. It would be a slightly tighter view, but you not really loose as much freedom with regards to DoF. The viewfinder could be completely from any information for all I care, as long as it is at least as big as on the one on the 5D.